Author Topic: Sun Shade concepts for Venus  (Read 89568 times)

Offline douglas100

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #120 on: 02/28/2012 02:59 pm »

Of course the electrical current requirements will be astronomical and there is still that pesky issue of availability of a strong enough magnetic field.  ;)

Let's turn Venus into a magnetar. That should do it!  ;D
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Offline Da5id

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #121 on: 02/28/2012 04:41 pm »

A possible way to increase the planets rotation is to use the light from the Sun. Around the equator build up mounds with one side of the mound to reflect the Sun light.   

Well, the Yarkovsky effect can alter the spin rate of asteroids as a result of solar radiation, but this is a planet we're talking about. Solar radiation pressure even at Venus's orbit is minuscule compared with the mass you are trying to influence. I doubt you could change the spin rate of Venus by any significant amount over the remaining lifetime of the Solar System by this method.

 Hundreds of thousands to maybe millions of nuclear atomic directional bomb blasts placed at the side of mountains, specially around the equator, and let off at the same time. Would this have an effect on rotation. Bit like a Hero's steam turbine.

No.  The bomb blasts would not be powerful enough to eject material into space, and without mass leaving Venus to carry away momentum there would be no effect what so ever on the rotation of Venus once all the dust settled.

I was really meaning a pushing effect rather than blasting.
Like Project Orion.

Offline nyar

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #122 on: 02/28/2012 05:06 pm »
Let's turn Venus into a magnetar. That should do it!  ;D

Heh! Perhaps scavenge magnets from the super sucker from SpaceBalls as someone suggested.

BTW
The mass of the Venusian atmosphere is 4.7*10^20 kg. To remove the gravitationally-bound atmosphere to Sun/Venus L1/L2, where it enters heliocentric orbit and disperses rapidly, Ei = 2.5*10^28 joules are required Ref-http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/TerraformSRS1983.htm

That can be done by laboriously lifting the stuff up out of the gravity well or by flinging it out at escape velocity which allows you to use the reaction impulse to spin up the planet.

According to LegendCJS
'The rotational kinetic energy of the earth of ~2*10^29 Joules.  The current rotational kinetic energy of Venus is close to 3*10^25 Joules.  So basically 2*10^29 joules of energy are needed to "spin up" Venus.'

He's using the solar power of a disk the diameter of Venus assuming 100% efficiency so lets stay with that.

Obviously there isn't enough atmosphere to get Venus spin up to 1 earth day by a factor of 10 unless you REALLY fling the air out much faster. Wasteful of energy.

But spinning up Venus to a 15 day/night cycle in 85 years only requires approx 8.8*10^26 joules.  That's well within the available fuel (atmosphere) available and you'll even have atmosphere left.

After things settle down I'm convinced that the 15 day day will be perfectly acceptable to a properly selected and modified biosphere. That's half the day of the Moon. And remember that the leftover ring will be giving a great deal of reflected light during the night and clouds AND the ring will control a great deal of influent day sunlight. 

Offline LegendCJS

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #123 on: 02/28/2012 05:30 pm »

A possible way to increase the planets rotation is to use the light from the Sun. Around the equator build up mounds with one side of the mound to reflect the Sun light.   

Well, the Yarkovsky effect can alter the spin rate of asteroids as a result of solar radiation, but this is a planet we're talking about. Solar radiation pressure even at Venus's orbit is minuscule compared with the mass you are trying to influence. I doubt you could change the spin rate of Venus by any significant amount over the remaining lifetime of the Solar System by this method.

 Hundreds of thousands to maybe millions of nuclear atomic directional bomb blasts placed at the side of mountains, specially around the equator, and let off at the same time. Would this have an effect on rotation. Bit like a Hero's steam turbine.

No.  The bomb blasts would not be powerful enough to eject material into space, and without mass leaving Venus to carry away momentum there would be no effect what so ever on the rotation of Venus once all the dust settled.

I was really meaning a pushing effect rather than blasting.
Like Project Orion.

Conservation of momentum doesn't care what you call it.  If all mass in the bomb ends up staying with Venus, no momentum is gained.  With project Orion, the majority of the mass of each charge ends up leaving the spacecraft for good carrying away momentum.  In space you also get transfer of momentum via photons from the bomb, but not so in an atmosphere as thick as Venus.

Edit: As a kind of snide side question, I'd really like to know what is your bomb bracing itself against to do this "pushing" on Venus?
« Last Edit: 02/28/2012 05:38 pm by LegendCJS »
Remember: if we want this whole space thing to work out we have to optimize for cost!

Offline Andrew_W

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #124 on: 02/28/2012 05:41 pm »
Quote
only requires approx 8.8*10^26 joules.

2.8*10^10 GW centuries. 2.8 GW for 10 billion centuries.
I guess "only" is a relative term.

On the other hand it's only 2.2 seconds of total solar output.
« Last Edit: 02/28/2012 05:59 pm by Andrew_W »
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Offline Archer

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #125 on: 02/28/2012 06:13 pm »
Quote
Plants need light to grow and who wants a half month a darkness or light
Like winter-summer cycle at Earth. During the Venus day (== summer) forests grow, during the night (== winter) small plants die, big ones go into anabiosis to be able to survive until dawn (== spring).
Maybe during the night there would be living plants that use planet heat as a power source (if terraforming companies will be able to create them).
Animals also need to be be very different from Earth ones.

You need to attract customers (and investors) to your Venus Terraforming Inc. somehow ;)
So many differences could be a good selling point. People like exotics.
« Last Edit: 02/28/2012 06:18 pm by Archer »
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Offline nyar

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #126 on: 02/28/2012 07:12 pm »
Quote
Plants need light to grow and who wants a half month a darkness or light
Like winter-summer cycle at Earth. During the Venus day (== summer) forests grow, during the night (== winter) small plants die, big ones go into anabiosis to be able to survive until dawn (== spring).
Maybe during the night there would be living plants that use planet heat as a power source (if terraforming companies will be able to create them).
Animals also need to be be very different from Earth ones.

You need to attract customers (and investors) to your Venus Terraforming Inc. somehow ;)
So many differences could be a good selling point. People like exotics.

Imagine a moist world where a fungal network connects all plantlife in lush jungles. During the long night smaller plants would derive nourishment from the network and during the day give it back. Every living thing would have the symbiotic fungus in their tissues providing sustenance and perhaps a form of bio-communication keeping things in balance.  During the night there would be a glow everywhere of the fungal symbiote in animals and plants.  A 10-20 bar thick atmosphere of mostly carbon dioxide would result in trees growing to enormous size.  Huge colonies of plants related to kelp would float in the moist air by means of air bladders filled with nitrogen/oxygen resembling floating mountains.  Huge reptilian bird creatures would nest in these flying mountains, effortlessly flying in the thick air and lighter gravity of Venus.  On some of their backs would be...blue blooded genetically modified humans, perhaps with an advanced hemocyanin in their viens to better resist carbon dioxide acidosis. 

How's that image for a Venus Terraforming Inc. advertising poster! ;D

Offline douglas100

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #127 on: 02/28/2012 11:02 pm »

Imagine a moist world where a fungal network connects all plantlife in lush jungles. During the long night smaller plants would derive nourishment from the network and during the day give it back. Every living thing would have the symbiotic fungus in their tissues providing sustenance and perhaps a form of bio-communication keeping things in balance.  During the night there would be a glow everywhere of the fungal symbiote in animals and plants.  A 10-20 bar thick atmosphere of mostly carbon dioxide would result in trees growing to enormous size.  Huge colonies of plants related to kelp would float in the moist air by means of air bladders filled with nitrogen/oxygen resembling floating mountains.  Huge reptilian bird creatures would nest in these flying mountains, effortlessly flying in the thick air and lighter gravity of Venus.  On some of their backs would be...blue blooded genetically modified humans, perhaps with an advanced hemocyanin in their viens to better resist carbon dioxide acidosis. 

How's that image for a Venus Terraforming Inc. advertising poster! ;D

See Olaf Stapeldon's Last and First Men. And that was written in 1930...
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Offline RocketmanUS

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #128 on: 02/29/2012 12:31 am »
Start with Sun shade by solar sail.
Reduce atmosphere pressure by removing CO2 by on or more methods.

Once cooled and pressure lowered to Earth standers and O2 and N2 more like Earths for breathing. Then could place an outpost on Venus for exploration and mining.

Power source possible solar and geothermal.

Plant growth in green houses. During the long day have the green house covered for an 8 to 12 hour time to simulate night. During the long night use artificial light for an 8 to 15 hour period to simulate night time. Geothermal to keep plants warm if needed.

Later on if we could spin up the rotation to a 24hr day over time and after exploration then it might be possible to make Venus more Earth like.

Edit:
experiment, in a dark room shined a flashlight at a wall. Placed a piece of paper between flashlight and wall ( close to wall then close to flashlight ). Made a good shadow. So a solar sail at a given distance between Venus and the Sun would block a good portion of the Sun's radiation from getting to the Venus atmosphere. This would cause the day side to not have new heat energy to send to the night side throw the blowing wind. The night side would start to cool down and then pull warmer air from the day side. As the planet slowly rotates it will continue to cool. Final temperature would depend on part by how much energy from the Sun does manage to get to Venus past the solar sails shadowing.

 
« Last Edit: 02/29/2012 04:46 am by RocketmanUS »

Offline nyar

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #129 on: 02/29/2012 01:19 pm »
There has been discussion of using lasers to block sunlight and thereby cooling Venus. While I agree that this is not workable there is another technique using lasers that may work.  It's called laser cooling and there are several related techniques.  Gas atoms are excited by a precisely tuned laser beam and induced to radiate far more energy than they receive, dropping to a lower energy state, thereby cooling the gas.  If it could be applied on large scale to the Venusian atmosphere above the clouds then the re-radiated heat energy would be reflected from the clouds outward into space.  As the temperature dropped the upper atmosphere would become more dense and drop downward, upwelling more of the hotter gas closer to the surface which would radiate more heat.  Once this convective cycle was started perhaps only a relatively small amount of energy would be necessary to sustain it.  Modeling this technique would require a high speed centrifuge filled with gas with the temperature and composition of Venus.  At high G the gas would stratify to resemble on a small scale the conditions in the Venusian atmosphere.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_cooling

Offline RocketmanUS

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #130 on: 03/01/2012 05:12 am »
There has been discussion of using lasers to block sunlight and thereby cooling Venus. While I agree that this is not workable there is another technique using lasers that may work.  It's called laser cooling and there are several related techniques.  Gas atoms are excited by a precisely tuned laser beam and induced to radiate far more energy than they receive, dropping to a lower energy state, thereby cooling the gas.  If it could be applied on large scale to the Venusian atmosphere above the clouds then the re-radiated heat energy would be reflected from the clouds outward into space.  As the temperature dropped the upper atmosphere would become more dense and drop downward, upwelling more of the hotter gas closer to the surface which would radiate more heat.  Once this convective cycle was started perhaps only a relatively small amount of energy would be necessary to sustain it.  Modeling this technique would require a high speed centrifuge filled with gas with the temperature and composition of Venus.  At high G the gas would stratify to resemble on a small scale the conditions in the Venusian atmosphere.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_cooling
Read the link, I don't think that would work. One method only work with some elements. One of the big problems is the amount of energy needed to run all the lasers needed.

With all the wind on the surface, we should be able to use that to generate power. Separate the CO2 from the atmosphere and jet it at high velocity out of the atmosphere. With some of the CO2 leaving at escape velocity, removing heat and CO2. The problem with this idea is that we need CO2 for plant growth.


 

Offline Andrew_W

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #131 on: 03/01/2012 06:36 am »
There has been discussion of using lasers to block sunlight and thereby cooling Venus. While I agree that this is not workable there is another technique using lasers that may work.  It's called laser cooling and there are several related techniques.  Gas atoms are excited by a precisely tuned laser beam and induced to radiate far more energy than they receive, dropping to a lower energy state, thereby cooling the gas.  If it could be applied on large scale to the Venusian atmosphere above the clouds then the re-radiated heat energy would be reflected from the clouds outward into space.  As the temperature dropped the upper atmosphere would become more dense and drop downward, upwelling more of the hotter gas closer to the surface which would radiate more heat.  Once this convective cycle was started perhaps only a relatively small amount of energy would be necessary to sustain it.  Modeling this technique would require a high speed centrifuge filled with gas with the temperature and composition of Venus.  At high G the gas would stratify to resemble on a small scale the conditions in the Venusian atmosphere.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_cooling

What a facinating idea, could you provide some sort of energy budget?
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Offline Andrew_W

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #132 on: 03/01/2012 06:48 am »

Read the link, I don't think that would work. One method only work with some elements. One of the big problems is the amount of energy needed to run all the lasers needed.

With all the wind on the surface, we should be able to use that to generate power. Separate the CO2 from the atmosphere and jet it at high velocity out of the atmosphere. With some of the CO2 leaving at escape velocity, removing heat and CO2. The problem with this idea is that we need CO2 for plant growth.
 

Great! How about an energy budget for accelerating most of 4*10^19 kg of CO2 to Venus escape velocity, and compare it to the amount of energy you can get from Venusian wind turbines, also, what method were you proposing to accelerate the CO2 to that velocity? I've no idea how we'd do it from the surface of the Earth.
I confess that in 1901 I said to my brother Orville that man would not fly for fifty years.
Wilbur Wright

Offline nyar

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #133 on: 03/01/2012 04:04 pm »

What a facinating idea, could you provide some sort of energy budget?

Sorry.  I don't even know if this idea will work let alone what amount of energy would be required.  That's what mathematical and physical modeling by qualified scientists is about.  Like any speculative megaproject you can be sure that the energy budget will be huge.  The way to evaluate any megaproject is to determine if the theoretical energy required is less than that required by crudely hitting it with a club, or nuke, or comet AND if the result is what you expect or just a broken mess.

What I do know is that CO2 in the Venusian atmosphere has lots of heat energy.  CO2 can be stimulated to give off energy in CO2 lasers.  Laser cooling is a proven technique with many variations.  Can it or something like it be applied to a planetary atmosphere? That's beyond my ability to determine.

I did a variation on the MHD experiment described in the link previously posted.  I used a simple homopolar motor (disk neodymium magnet attached to a sharp nail and free spinning on the tip of an alligator clip as the - pole) in the salt and pepper water filled dish.  A loop of copper strip was placed around inner edge if the dish the to insure a radially uniform electric field and attached to the + pole.  An 11 volt 300 mA DC power supply was used.  Sure enough the magnet spun around in the water and the water spun in the opposite direction proving a definite momentum exchange between the two.

WARNING-If you do this experiment remember that explosive hydrogen gas will be generated!  Ventilate the area, Keep away from flames and wear safety glasses.  The salt water solution will turn green indicating a toxic copper chloride (?) solution.  Handle with caution and dispose of properly. AND your shiny magnet will lose its finish. Safety is your responsibility.

I'm still not sure if a magnetic field of the proper orientation and strength can be induced in a created Venusian planetary ring by electric current as I described.  I am sure that magnetic eddies will be formed by current flow but if they will combine to create a strong enough magnetic flux to accelerate the Venusian air to escape velocity is beyond my limited resources to determine.   


Offline RocketmanUS

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #134 on: 03/01/2012 06:31 pm »

Read the link, I don't think that would work. One method only work with some elements. One of the big problems is the amount of energy needed to run all the lasers needed.

With all the wind on the surface, we should be able to use that to generate power. Separate the CO2 from the atmosphere and jet it at high velocity out of the atmosphere. With some of the CO2 leaving at escape velocity, removing heat and CO2. The problem with this idea is that we need CO2 for plant growth.
 

Great! How about an energy budget for accelerating most of 4*10^19 kg of CO2 to Venus escape velocity, and compare it to the amount of energy you can get from Venusian wind turbines, also, what method were you proposing to accelerate the CO2 to that velocity? I've no idea how we'd do it from the surface of the Earth.
I should had say we might be able to-

On Earth we use pumps to force water up throw a fountain into the air. So I was thinking of shooting liquid CO2 up into the Venus air at high pressure. It would take a long time to remove that amount of CO2. I do not know how much energy it would take. First we would need to compress and cool the gaseous CO2 into liquid CO2. Then we need to know the gravity and air losses as the liquid CO2 was shooting throw the air to space. Plus a lot of the liquid CO2 would vaporize into gas, expanding and absorbing heat from the surrounding air. Only a small amount would make it past the outer atmosphere to escape the gravity pull of Venus. For Earth I believe escape velocity is around 25,000mph so the liquid CO2 would have to leave the nozzle of the pump at a far greater speed. In to days world of tech we probable could not make such a pump.

The other idea would be to make dry ice large enough that some of it would make it through the atmosphere to escape velocity before it absorbed heat and turned back into gas. Could an air cannon be made with enough power to throw a given mass to escape velocity throw that think an atmosphere?

It more likely be better to just take the CO2 and make O2, carbon blocks, and combine a lot of the excess O2 with elements from the Venus surface to reduce to Venus atmosphere. A lot of time and energy from the Sun and thermal heat from the air.

Offline Da5id

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #135 on: 03/03/2012 04:54 pm »
  Another  idea to remove a large amount of atmosphere and lessen the density of Venuses  atmosphere may be by way of a sort of nuclear depth charging,from space.

 A canister, say carrying  three Hydrogen bombs, entered into the Venusians upper atmosphere, each bomb released at various altitudes. The first bomb floats by balloon for a short time, the second deploys a parachute, the third aloud to free fall deeper into the cloud tops. Then detonated.
  Energy of the nuclear explosion would be directed in the desired direction. The  resulting massive  rising fireball would draw in and raise the cooler surrounding air and suck it up. The second and eventually the third detonations would accelerate the air further. ejecting volumes of atmosphere and any radiation to escape velocity and off planet.

  Multiple continuous bombardments over several years may be enough to lower the pressure on the surface.
 Materials for the bombs could be found and collected from asteroids or the moon and possibly launched from these locations.

 Please note the first detonation is well understood from the 1950/60s atmospheric tests in earths atmosphere.
Second and third detonations of what might happpen is pure speculation.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2012 05:28 pm by Da5id »

Offline nyar

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #136 on: 03/03/2012 07:29 pm »
[img]
What a facinating idea, could you provide some sort of energy budget?

Have a little time so I'll just add to the comments.  Although I can't provide a definite energy budget it may come out of the energy budget for electricity used in spinning up Venus as I described previously.  If the ion cannon electron beam were modulated in a rectified full or half wave pattern at the precise frequency to stimulate the CO2 in the air to a higher energy state which then will release accumulated energy in a population inversion similar to what occurs in a laser then cooling may occur over time.  Of course any energy used for this purpose would be lost to the momentum exchange effort and would have to be factored into the terraforming energy budget.  You don't get something for nothing. ;)

Speaking of that, a word about raw materials.  An ion cannon and the attendant solar panel is going to be a big hunk of machinery.  Where to get the construction material?  3554 Amun is an M-type Aten Venus crossing asteroid with a length of 2.5 km which may fit the bill.  There are others as well.  They are largely nickel/iron with massive deposits of silver, gold, platinum, iridium, in short the stuff necessary for building a solar powered ion cannon.  The precious metals alone could pay for the construction effort.  Once constructed the ion cannon can be used as a thruster to get it anywhere in the solar system.

We know Venus is bone dry. Without water any terraforming effort will be useless.  While others have suggested comets and kruiper belt objects, they're either too small or too far away.  May I suggest Saturns moon Phoebe?  Estimates are that the 200 km diameter moon is 50% frozen volatiles, mostly water.  If transported to a flat cooler Venusian surface it would create a uniform global ocean 30 feet deep.  But Venus is not flat so the depth of the shallow sea would be greater, say about the depth of Lake Erie. Great for biological productivity since it will all be within the reach of sunlight.  Phoebe is the farthest major moon from Saturn and orbits retrograde in an eccentric orbit.  That means pushing it out of Saturns orbit is not too (relatively) difficult and the retrograde orbit means a fast drop to the inner solar system where a reverse gravity swingby of Mars, Venus, or Mercury could kill velocity and get it to do an atmosphere grazing encounter to create the initial ring.  Afterwords (if it survives the encounter) it can be parked at one of the Lagrange points until later when it can be used to fill the seas.

Offline douglas100

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #137 on: 03/03/2012 07:35 pm »
From Da5id:

Quote
Another  idea to remove a large amount of atmosphere and lessen the density of Venuses  atmosphere may be by way of a sort of nuclear depth charging,from space.

I think you have seriously underestimated the amount of energy required to eject gas from Venus's atmosphere. Likewise, you seem to think that nuclear warheads are some kind of source of almost infinite energy.

Now I freely admit that I have made no attempt to calculate how much energy would be required to remove 90% of the atmosphere. It will be very large indeed. I think nuclear warheads are puny for this task: even if it worked (which I seriously doubt) it would take centuries to achieve.
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Offline douglas100

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #138 on: 03/03/2012 07:37 pm »
@ Nyar:

Liked the use of "relatively" in your post!  :)
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Offline nyar

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Re: Sun Shade concepts for Venus
« Reply #139 on: 03/03/2012 08:10 pm »
@ Nyar:

Liked the use of "relatively" in your post!  :)

Yeah! :D  I fully admit that these are enormous projects for a far future.  They're not going to provide us with an escape from our current problems here.  If they are done at all they will be done as visionary efforts to EXPAND the possibilities of life in the universe not as an escape from a dying planet.  They will occur AFTER we have stopped killing ourselves and our planet and have created a peaceful productive life affirming global civilization HERE!

"Before you and go out and play, you have to clean up your room."
Someones Mother
« Last Edit: 03/03/2012 08:11 pm by nyar »

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