Author Topic: SUSIE, (Smart Upper Stage for Innovative Exploration) concept from ARIANE  (Read 56817 times)

Offline hektor

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I checked the IAC program. Susie was presented by the same people who gave us Adeline. Do I need to elaborate ?  ::)

Offline LouScheffer

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The really bad thing here, if ESA starts to copy F9 now (and that would include minor improvements), they would again end up with a system that is outdated, when reaching the market.
Better to be 10 years out of date (after starting on a Falcon 9 clone), then waiting another 10 years (and doing nothing) and be 20 years out of date!
Interestingly, there is private money (RocketLab with Neutron) chasing the idea of Falcon 9 with improvements.  Many suspect they will need to raise more money to complete this project.  If so, for a fraction of what they would spend on their own competitor, perhaps ESA could help fund Neutron development, in return for IP rights, the right to manufacture in Europe, and a pad in Guiana.

This would solve the problem of assured European access to space, if they can build and launch their own vehicle, from their own spaceport, at a reasonable (even if not StarShip level) cost.  It could also preserve some manufacturing capabilities, though not the large solids some EDA factions would prefer.  This project alone would not preserve the ability to design and qualify new vehicles, but that might be covered by project working on next generation (fully reusable) concepts.

However, spending significant money outside the ESA for a core function (design and qualification) seems implausible, no matter what the practical benefits might be.

 

Offline TrevorMonty



The really bad thing here, if ESA starts to copy F9 now (and that would include minor improvements), they would again end up with a system that is outdated, when reaching the market.
Better to be 10 years out of date (after starting on a Falcon 9 clone), then waiting another 10 years (and doing nothing) and be 20 years out of date!
Interestingly, there is private money (RocketLab with Neutron) chasing the idea of Falcon 9 with improvements.  Many suspect they will need to raise more money to complete this project.  If so, for a fraction of what they would spend on their own competitor, perhaps ESA could help fund Neutron development, in return for IP rights, the right to manufacture in Europe, and a pad in Guiana.

This would solve the problem of assured European access to space, if they can build and launch their own vehicle, from their own spaceport, at a reasonable (even if not StarShip level) cost.  It could also preserve some manufacturing capabilities, though not the large solids some EDA factions would prefer.  This project alone would not preserve the ability to design and qualify new vehicles, but that might be covered by project working on next generation (fully reusable) concepts.

However, spending significant money outside the ESA for a core function (design and qualification) seems implausible, no matter what the practical benefits might be.

ESA would be better off flying Dreamchaser on A6 while developing a RLV. Sierra Space may even use combination for commercial missions.

Offline woods170

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I checked the IAC program. Susie was presented by the same people who gave us Adeline. Do I need to elaborate ?  ::)

Oh dear... the fly-back engine module concept from 2015. That silly idea went absolutely nowhere.

Offline floss

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Problems with Hermes was it was too small to be of use at 25 tons Susie is big enough to do what was wanted of Hermes original design .

I personally love this design because it is a great basis for a reusable mars lander .

Offline yg1968

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See the passage in bold below:

Quote from: ESA
The ESA budget for space transportation has risen to €2.8 billion. ESA will further strengthen its Ariane 6 and Vega-C launchers, complete the development of the reusable Space Rider that can stay in low Earth orbit for more than two months before returning to Earth for refurbishment, and develop a green hydrogen system to fuel Ariane launchers at Europe’s Spaceport in French Guiana, with the goal of eliminating carbon in hydrogen production by 2030. It will continue to mature critical technologies that underpin European capabilities while responding to environmental sustainability and cost-efficiency requirements, along with preparatory activities for the advent of human space transportation capabilities. ESA will also increase the efforts of its Boost! programme to help space entrepreneurs turn their space transportation projects into commercial reality.

https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Corporate_news/Ministers_back_ESA_s_bold_ambitions_for_space_with_record_17_rise
« Last Edit: 11/24/2022 03:35 am by yg1968 »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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https://europeanspaceflight.substack.com/p/funding-arianegroups-susie-concept

Quote
Fundings ArianeGroup’s Susie concept would be a mistake

Andrew Parsonson

[…]

As a fan of exciting developments in spaceflight and specifically European spaceflight, I was excited about the concept when it was first announced. However, the more I thought about it the more I realized how cynical the proposal had been and how little about it made sense.
« Last Edit: 01/30/2023 01:57 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline hektor

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https://europeanspaceflight.substack.com/p/funding-arianegroups-susie-concept

Quote
Fundings ArianeGroup’s Susie concept would be a mistake

Andrew Parsonson

[…]

As a fan of exciting developments in spaceflight and specifically European spaceflight, I was excited about the concept when it was first announced. However, the more I thought about it the more I realized how cynical the proposal had been and how little about it made sense.

Has the author read this thread ?

Offline floss

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This project should work if the launcher is 30 tons which is one ton per crewman for a five-man crew.

Move Vega to ELA 3 and grow the launcher to 8 tons thereby replacing Ariane 6,2 market the single com satellite launch one. That is four boosters plus a Vinci upper stage. That is nine launches per year without upsetting the factory.
 Build the reusable boosters and use Ariane 62 upgraded to take over Ariane 6.4 market double comsat launch.
Then use a four-booster upgraded Ariane 6.4 to launch the manned program.

There is a nice market opportunity in Kourou for a new rocket company to have a nice light launcher in a few years.
21 Vinci-powered upper stages per year a cheap upgrade on then 12 planned.



Offline TheKutKu

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https://www.usinenouvelle.com/editorial/premier-allumage-reussi-pour-le-demonstrateur-du-module-reutilisable-susie-d-arianegroup.N2187048?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Successful first ignition for ArianeGroup's Susie reusable module demonstrator

The Susie demonstrator, a reusable launcher upper stage project developed by ArianeGroup, performed its first ignition from the Group's site at Les Mureaux (Île-de-France) on Wednesday October 25. This training model will be used to develop the controlled landing system until the second quarter of 2025.

At around two meters high and weighing 100 kilograms, this reduced and simplified model of the future super-fairing will enable the Airbus-Safran joint venture to develop a controlled landing system.

(Paywall)

Key points
-2m high, 100kg for the demonstrator
-Kerolox engine
-Hops planned, leading to a high altitude flight before mid-2025
-Intermediate and Large version planned
« Last Edit: 10/26/2023 11:53 am by TheKutKu »

Offline Emmettvonbrown

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I'd like to ask a question.

How does Susie compares to Stoke second stage ? Can't help thinking they look vaguely similar at least. Was wondering whether the Europeans could go the Stoke way, bringing together Callisto / Prometheus and Susie ? What if Europe was heading that way ?
« Last Edit: 10/26/2023 05:21 pm by Emmettvonbrown »

Offline friendly3

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I'd like to ask a question.

How does Susie compares to Stoke second stage ?(...)

One will probably reach orbit, the other one will be cancelled long before.

Offline TrevorMonty

I'd like to ask a question.

How does Susie compares to Stoke second stage ? Can't help thinking they look vaguely similar at least. Was wondering whether the Europeans could go the Stoke way, bringing together Callisto / Prometheus and Susie ? What if Europe was heading that way ?
Susie seems more like a reuseable 3 stage or OTV. In case of A6 needs 2nd stage to help make it to orbit.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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https://twitter.com/arianegroup/status/1717953688092762366

Quote
Unveiled in Paris last fall during the 2022 IAC show, SUSIE starts to get real today. The reduced-scale demonstrator you see in this video constitutes the first brick in #ArianeGroup's development plan to swiftly master the key technologies of the #SUSIE concept.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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https://twitter.com/arianegroup/status/1719437275229020341

Quote
SUSIE (Smart Upper Stage for Innovative Exploration), a new and entirely reusable stage concept, designed to meet the future needs of transport to-, in- and from space. In the coming days, we will suggest a few examples of SUSIE's many possible missions.
#ArianeGroup #SUSIE

Gotta say, this feels like a weirdly invested press push from Ariane Space for a project that is almost certainly dead on arrival.
Wait, ∆V? This site will accept the ∆ symbol? How many times have I written out the word "delta" for no reason?

Online Asteroza

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Gotta say, this feels like a weirdly invested press push from Ariane Space for a project that is almost certainly dead on arrival.

Well, if you allegedly have a european reusable first stage/expendable second stage launcher coming along by a startup that is underfunded, shopping around an reusable upper/second stage funded by someone else might be attractive...

Offline jebbo

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It's almost certainly related to the Esa Space Summit 2023, which starts on 6 Nov. Reusable crew and cargo transport is one of the topics.

--- Tony

Offline TheKutKu

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Gotta say, this feels like a weirdly invested press push from Ariane Space for a project that is almost certainly dead on arrival.

Well, if you allegedly have a european reusable first stage/expendable second stage launcher coming along by a startup that is underfunded, shopping around an reusable upper/second stage funded by someone else might be attractive...


-Maiaspace’s rocket is derived from the publicly funded Themis, which is way too small (150t, 3.5m diameter) to boost SUSIE to orbit, Maiaspace will probably not develop a larger Reusable first stage on their own funding, this will probably only be done by Arianegroup with ESA funding.

-SUSIE is not supposed to be a reusable upper stage, it is a mixed crew-cargo reusable VTVL orbiter without main propulsion (engines are only doing orbital insertions and landing)
 
Its closest comparison would be Buran, but Downscaled to Hermes-scale and with Starship’s landing methods, definitely technologically interesting, but practically useless.

Not sure I would call Maiaspace underfunded, they piggyback a lot ESA-Funded projects and thanks to that have more modest goals, which they seem to be progressing at at an average speed (by European launcher newspace standards, of course, not American Or Chinese), their number of employees and recent Arianegroup investments since the start of the year contradict vastly misinterpreted and widely shared 2022 Financial statements.
« Last Edit: 11/01/2023 09:36 am by TheKutKu »

Offline hektor

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Usual strategy of ArianeGroup

There will be a limited amount of money allocated to this new European vehicle initiative (cargo return from LEO, crew mission or else)

So out of  this (small) stack of money, if they add their own entry (on the premise that they will be selected since they have the historic background and the technical know how), they make sure that the new entrants selected (for instance, The Exploration Company) will get less funding, increasing the probability that their business case does not close.

Assuming there is 200 million available with two entrants, that it 100 million each. If ArianeGroup joins, we go down from 100 to 67 million so minus 30%.

Tough but this kind of lame duck project has its utility from ArianeGroup standpoint.

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