NASA’s plans to accelerate its plans to return humans to the moon by four years, to 2024, has not affected ESA’s plans to participate through modules for the lunar Gateway or a cargo lander called the European Large Logistics Lander planned for after that 2024 landing. “It’s just that the Americans decided to have two Americans on the surface of the moon in 2024,” he said. “That’s a national decision.”
International space agencies are pushing towards the Moon and Europe intends to play a leading role on the surface. The European Lunar Lander will be designed to allow a series of different missions with different options for its payloads being studied. ESA’s European Lander project is in an intensive study phase and will follow into a full-fledged space project, if approved.Two payload options were approved for study at Space19+: a delivery of logistics in support of human expeditions to the Moon, and a self-standing European science mission, potentially to return samples to Earth as a high-profile science mission. Missions combining one or more scientific experiments, technology demonstration, and cargo delivery could also be foreseen in the future. The versatility of the lander is therefore a strong part of the strategy.The selection for the first payload will be made at the end of the study phase in 2022 with more missions for later flight opportunities lining up.[...]European Large Logistics LanderLauncher Ariane 64Launch Site Kourou, French GuyanaMass on Earth 8500 kgMass on the Moon without cargo 1600 kgMass of delivered cargo 1500 kgSize 4.5 m in diameter, up to 6 m tallMission types Multiple and diverse: cargo, science rover, sample return stage, technology demonstration packages, in-situ resource production equipment, power generation equipment, ….
The European Large Logistics Lander - AnimationSeems to be the same type of Lander Used For Heracles
Quote from: Jakdowski on 12/02/2019 05:27 pmThe European Large Logistics Lander - AnimationSeems to be the same type of Lander Used For Heracles Is the linked video from ESA the same as the deleted YouTube video?https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Videos/2019/11/Heracles_Cargo_Moon_Landing
European Moon-Lander Project Pits Airbus Against Thales
EL3 flights are set to begin in the late 2020s, with a cadence of missions over the following decade and more.
ESA anticipates flying three to five EL3 missions over a 10 year time frame.
Wonder will some of these missions be to make fuel .If you refuel these lenders they would make fantastic lunar hoppers and the ability to land defunct satellites for recycling would be very advantageous as the lunar town grows .
Quote from: floss on 11/25/2020 12:58 pmWonder will some of these missions be to make fuel .If you refuel these lenders they would make fantastic lunar hoppers and the ability to land defunct satellites for recycling would be very advantageous as the lunar town grows .What kind of stuff are you taking? Sorry but I think you've lost your marbles. I think it's more than three orders of magnitude more likely that SpaceX Starlink will set off Kessler syndrome, than that one satellite will be serviced on or near the moon.Back to more realistic stuff. Where do we expect the EL3 will be tested?
ESA contracts awards mostly depend from which member state invests the most in the project…
I made a thought experiment. ESA wants to use Argonaut as a bargaining chip with NASA to get a European astronaut on the surface.For the argonaut to the Moon, with an Ariane 64 launch from Guiana, the operations and the spacecraft I assume we are talking maybe 500 Meuros. So they go to NASA and say, we spent half a billion to bring one ton of payload to the surface, grant us an astronaut on the surface !Then NASA answers, sorry guys for that amount we can have xxx HLS to the Lunar surface which brings xxx times 100 t of payload. Even is xxx significantly lower than one, I do not see how ESA has bargaining power with Argonaut.Do I miss something ? granularity ? there is a value to bring only a one ton payload increment ? access to areas where Starship cannot safely land ? anything ?
The work to be done in ESA member states to developed and build a handful of bespoked boutique Lunar landers with 1 tonne payload capacity. It is pork barreling with at least 500M Euros to be allocated, IMO.
Quote from: Zed_Noir on 02/24/2023 04:15 pm The work to be done in ESA member states to developed and build a handful of bespoked boutique Lunar landers with 1 tonne payload capacity. It is pork barreling with at least 500M Euros to be allocated, IMO.That part I understood. What is not clear to me is how ESA gets from NASA and the US Govt their "boots on the Moon" seat on an Artemis flight.
Quote from: hektor on 02/24/2023 04:34 pmThat part I understood. What is not clear to me is how ESA gets from NASA and the US Govt their "boots on the Moon" seat on an Artemis flight.And the modules for the Gateway dont buy thats seats on the Moon for ESA?
That part I understood. What is not clear to me is how ESA gets from NASA and the US Govt their "boots on the Moon" seat on an Artemis flight.
Quote from: hektor on 02/24/2023 04:34 pmQuote from: Zed_Noir on 02/24/2023 04:15 pm The work to be done in ESA member states to developed and build a handful of bespoked boutique Lunar landers with 1 tonne payload capacity. It is pork barreling with at least 500M Euros to be allocated, IMO.That part I understood. What is not clear to me is how ESA gets from NASA and the US Govt their "boots on the Moon" seat on an Artemis flight.And the modules for the Gateway dont buy thats seats on the Moon for ESA?
In order to both define specific mission applications and inform the generic design of the LDE so that it can accommodate a range of missions, several ESA CDF studies and pre-Phase A industrial studies have been conducted. The Phase B2/C/D development of the LDE will be initiated by the end of 2023 with the launch of the first mission targeted in 2030.
Wrong, no Thales Alenia in Germany. If Germany has the majority stake in the program... you can imagine how it ends.
Ariane 6 will launch Argonaut in a direct flight to the Moon. 🚀🌑Argonaut is #Europe’s autonomous lunar lander. Designed to be versatile it could bring cargo, a rover, production facilities or even a power station to the Moon: https://esa.int/argonaut
The Modules will remain the same. They have already been negotiated against Orion seats to Gateway.Never seen a negotiation where you get more with the same bargaining chip.
Ok so we are back to my original question.My impression is that Starship with its low operating cost and huge payload to Lunar surface reduces considerably the bargaining power of the pair Ariane 64 / Argonaut. So do I miss something which makes Ariane 64 / Argonaut against ESA astronaut on the surface a palatable deal for NASA much more than I think ?
Quote from: hektor on 02/24/2023 10:50 pmOk so we are back to my original question.My impression is that Starship with its low operating cost and huge payload to Lunar surface reduces considerably the bargaining power of the pair Ariane 64 / Argonaut. So do I miss something which makes Ariane 64 / Argonaut against ESA astronaut on the surface a palatable deal for NASA much more than I think ?I see what you mean but I think that the argument is that NASA and its Artemis partners need small cargo (CLPS), medium (Argonaut) and large cargo capability (cargo HLS-Starship) to the lunar surface. Argonaut would fit into the medium cargo capability.
Quote from: yg1968 on 07/20/2023 02:09 pmQuote from: hektor on 02/24/2023 10:50 pmOk so we are back to my original question.My impression is that Starship with its low operating cost and huge payload to Lunar surface reduces considerably the bargaining power of the pair Ariane 64 / Argonaut. So do I miss something which makes Ariane 64 / Argonaut against ESA astronaut on the surface a palatable deal for NASA much more than I think ?I see what you mean but I think that the argument is that NASA and its Artemis partners need small cargo (CLPS), medium (Argonaut) and large cargo capability (cargo HLS-Starship) to the lunar surface. Argonaut would fit into the medium cargo capability.The argument for three sizes is only valid if smaller is cheaper. IF starship works at all, and IF (big if) an expendable Starship is cheaper (single unit cost) than a smaller launcher, then this argument disappears. Of course Starship will also crush the competition for any lunar destination that is the target of multiple payloads that are collectively too large for the smaller landers. The huge Starship may end up being cheaper than smaller landers because Starships are to be made in high volume from cheap standardized materials. Finally, a landed expended Starship is a resource that can be used as is or broken up for parts and materials.
As an alternative to increase Ariane 6 performances, we are looking at in-orbit refueling, working on an Argonaut concept with in-orbit refueling to increase its performance. So, with two Ariane 6s, we launch a full reservoir and an Argonaut with its payload and little fuel. Then we will dock to the tank to refuel. This scenario gives a big increase in performance to get cargo to the Moon surface. Argonaut is a European lunar lander that will provide autonomous access to the Moon for Europe, allowing us to play a major role on the surface of our natural satellite. In the 2030s, Argonaut, launched on Ariane 6, will deliver up to 2,100 kg of cargo to the Moon’s surface.
Thales Alenia Space, has signed a contract with the European Space Agency (ESA), worth € 862 Million, related to the design, the development and the delivery of the Lunar Descent Element (LDE) for ESA’s Argonaut Mission, including responsibility for mission design and integration.Planned to be launched from the 2030s, Argonaut will deliver cargo, infrastructure and scientific instruments to the Moon’s surface.The first mission is envisioned to deal with delivery of dedicated navigation and telecommunication payloads as well as energy generation and storage system, as European enterprises to explore the Lunar southern area.About ArgonautThe Argonaut spacecraft consists of three main elements: the lunar descent element (LDE) for flying to the Moon and landing on the target, the cargo platform one, which is the interface between the lander and its payload, and finally, the element that the mission designers want to send to the Moon.Adaptability is a key element of Argonaut's design, which is why the cargo platform is designed to accept any mission profile: cargo for astronauts near the landing site, a rover, technology demonstration packages, production facilities using lunar resources, a lunar telescope or even a power station. The project will strengthen Thales Alenia Space’s skills in several technological areas essential to space exploration beyond the Moon.The future space ecosystem requires new solutions dedicated to the transport and return of cargo from low Earth orbit and lunar orbit, as well as crew transport to low Earth orbit. Thales Alenia Space is ready to put in place what is needed to prepare for humanity’s future life and presence in Space, laying the foundations for the post-ISS era and meeting new economic needs for research and science.Argonaut consortium: who does what?Thales Alenia Space is the prime contractor for the development of the Lunar Descent Element. The overall mission responsibility, ie the use of the LDE and integration with payload, will be the subject of a separate procurement in the future. The Lunar Descent Element is an independent architecture block of the international lunar exploration activities, namely a versatile system to support a variety of missions.As prime contractor and system integrator of the Lunar Descent Element, Thales Alenia Space in Italy will lead the industrial consortium that will be responsible for the system, the entry descent and landing aspects, as well as the general and specific architectures of the thermomechanical, avionics and software chains. Thales Alenia Space in France and in the UK will respectively focus on data handling systems and propulsion. OHB System AG as additional core team member of the Thales Alenia Space consortium will be responsible for guidance, navigation and control (GNC), electrical power systems (EPS) and telecommunications (TT&C) aspects.“Argonaut lunar lander means a lot to our company” said Hervé Derrey, Thales Alenia Space CEO. “Thanks to this astonishing space vehicle, tons of cargo will be delivered to the Moon’s surface, including rovers, scientific missions and many more. This new element of the Artemis program will serve at facilitating long-duration manned lunar exploration missions and will be crucial to increase European autonomy in lunar exploration. The Moon will also serve as a stepping stone for crewed missions into deep space, with Mars being the next stage of the journey. I wanted to express my gratitude to ESA for awarding this new contract to our company. Today’s major achievement strengthens more than ever Thales Alenia Space’s leading positions in the fields of space transportation systems, orbital infrastructures and space exploration”.“We are truly honored that ESA has renewed its trust in our company by awarding Thales Alenia Space this major contract to develop the European lunar lander that will enable Europe to access autonomously to the Moon’s surface”, said Giampiero Di Paolo, Deputy CEO and Senior Vice President, Observation, Exploration and Navigation at Thales Alenia Space. “Today, with its longstanding expertise in space exploration infrastructure and vehicles, our company, in line with ESA’s and ASI’s visions, has decided to enhance its competitiveness by investing in the development of technological solutions to help Europe achieve its goals. Supplying a significant proportion of the International Space Station’s pressurized volume, playing a major role on board Artemis, manufacturing the backbone of Orion’s European service module and leading flagship transportation programs such as IXV or Space Rider, Thales Alenia Space is more than ever at the forefront of exploration and space transportation systems”.
A lunar lander which will be built by a consortium of corporations - why does everything in Europe have to be so OldSpace?
https://twitter.com/esaspaceflight/status/1884975137251852525
Quote from: Svetoslav on 01/30/2025 02:13 pmA lunar lander which will be built by a consortium of corporations - why does everything in Europe have to be so OldSpace?Maybe because in Europe, old space companies are pretty good at delivering on big projects like this with tight budgets and deadlines? ArianeGroup is a notable exception, sure. I'd admit that. Thales Alenia Space is incredible, though. I think they are absolutely the best people to execute on Argonaut.
On July 16, the Preliminary Requirement Review (PRR) for the contract "EMM – Industrial Activities for the LAORIE Lunar Laboratory – Phase A0/A" (CUP C53C22000870006; CIG A020D9BF1B) between ASI and Thales Alenia Space Italia was successfully concluded. The positive outcome of the PRR formalized the conclusion of the contractual activities and the provisions of EMM WP-1330, dedicated to the project's Lunar Infrastructure.Contract activities focused primarily on the preliminary definition of requirements for the space segment (lunar infrastructure) of the Lunar Adaptive Outpost for Remote Italian Research (LAORIE), including, thanks to the involvement of Altec S.p.A., preliminary aspects of the ground segment and the operations of the entire Earth-Moon system. The LAORIE space segment will be responsible for hosting and operating the three scientific payloads selected for the mission: i) the “Lunar Electromagnetic Monitor in X-rays” (LEM-X), an instrument for all-sky monitoring in the X-ray band; the “LUNAr optical POLarimetry surveyor” (LUNAPOL), a polarimeter that will allow the mapping of interstellar polarization over large portions of the sky; and iii) the “Lunar Earth Temperature Observatory” (LETO), a Fourier transform spectroradiometer operating in the infrared, developed for the continuous monitoring of the brightness temperature of the Earth's disk.The proposed lunar infrastructure is divided into three distinct subsystems: the lander, the lunar platform, and the payloads. The lander will ensure the lunar landing and serve as the supporting structure for the infrastructure throughout the mission. The platform will house the payloads, provide electrical power and thermal control for the entire planned mission duration (3 years), and will be responsible for communications with Earth. Finally, the three payloads described above, developed within the EMM framework by INAF and CNR, will carry out the planned measurements to achieve the scientific objectives of studying the Universe and Earth.The main technological challenges in this preliminary development phase arose from the need to ensure payload functionality for the entire duration of the mission. This required identifying strategic solutions to address a series of environmental and operational challenges, such as long periods of darkness, severe temperature fluctuations, the presence of lunar dust, and the absence of an atmosphere. Added to these were constraints related to launch logistics, transportation, long-term durability, and the impossibility of remote maintenance.
GOALdesign and develop a Moon-surface laboratory to study the Earth and the Universe in a 2-year mission.
