Author Topic: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)  (Read 22442 times)

Offline hektor

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Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« on: 10/24/2019 11:29 am »
Woerner optimistic about ESA’s upcoming ministerial meeting

Quote
NASA’s plans to accelerate its plans to return humans to the moon by four years, to 2024, has not affected ESA’s plans to participate through modules for the lunar Gateway or a cargo lander called the European Large Logistics Lander planned for after that 2024 landing. “It’s just that the Americans decided to have two Americans on the surface of the moon in 2024,” he said. “That’s a national decision.”

This is news to me. What is this ?
« Last Edit: 04/06/2022 10:26 pm by zubenelgenubi »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #1 on: 10/25/2019 03:49 am »
« Last Edit: 10/25/2019 03:49 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline hektor

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #2 on: 10/25/2019 07:35 am »
Interesting presentation, I see there is also a Cis-Lunar transfer vehicle (CLTV) which is mentioned for the Cornerstone 2.

Offline Jakdowski

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #3 on: 12/02/2019 05:27 pm »
The European Large Logistics Lander - Animation

Seems to be the same type of Lander Used For Heracles 



Offline Mammutti

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #4 on: 07/02/2020 04:04 pm »
Quote from: ESA
International space agencies are pushing towards the Moon and Europe intends to play a leading role on the surface. The European Lunar Lander will be designed to allow a series of different missions with different options for its payloads being studied. ESA’s European Lander project is in an intensive study phase and will follow into a full-fledged space project, if approved.

Two payload options were approved for study at Space19+: a delivery of logistics in support of human expeditions to the Moon, and a self-standing European science mission, potentially to return samples to Earth as a high-profile science mission. Missions combining one or more scientific experiments, technology demonstration, and cargo delivery could also be foreseen in the future. The versatility of the lander is therefore a strong part of the strategy.

The selection for the first payload will be made at the end of the study phase in 2022 with more missions for later flight opportunities lining up.

[...]

European Large Logistics Lander
Launcher   Ariane 64
Launch Site   Kourou, French Guyana
Mass on Earth   8500 kg
Mass on the Moon without cargo   1600 kg
Mass of delivered cargo   1500 kg
Size   4.5 m in diameter, up to 6 m tall
Mission types   Multiple and diverse: cargo, science rover, sample return stage, technology demonstration packages, in-situ resource production equipment, power generation equipment, ….

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/European_Large_Logistic_Lander

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #5 on: 07/03/2020 03:35 am »
The European Large Logistics Lander - Animation

Seems to be the same type of Lander Used For Heracles 




Is the linked video from ESA the same as the deleted YouTube video?
https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Videos/2019/11/Heracles_Cargo_Moon_Landing

Offline floss

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #6 on: 08/15/2020 05:12 pm »
Wonder what you can package up in a 1500 kg package wonder can you fit a glass heating element and a nitrogen tank.

Offline Jakdowski

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #7 on: 08/19/2020 08:39 pm »
The European Large Logistics Lander - Animation

Seems to be the same type of Lander Used For Heracles 




Is the linked video from ESA the same as the deleted YouTube video?
https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Videos/2019/11/Heracles_Cargo_Moon_Landing

Yes it is

Offline hektor

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Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #9 on: 10/15/2020 09:46 am »
European Moon-Lander Project Pits Airbus Against Thales
There is a mistake in this article. the EL3 will NOT be humanrated. It's for robotics and payloads.
I think ESA, CNES, DLR are wiser that NASA with their 'to fast' Artemis program. I fear Artemis will end the permanent human presence in space, not expand our presence. Without scientific reason NASA is spending dozens of billions to get some people on the moon again. Afaik NASA hasn't landed anything on the moon after Apollo. That's what should be done now, landing some rovers on the moon.

AFAIK, the Airbus Article hasn't been shared here:
Airbus selected for ESA’s Moon lander study
Quote
EL3 flights are set to begin in the late 2020s, with a cadence of missions over the following decade and more.
Quote
ESA anticipates flying three to five EL3 missions over a 10 year time frame.



I say; that's the right ambition for ESA for Moon exploration, besides a LEO microG laboratory and the Mars Sample Return mission, for the 2025-2039 period. Humans should remain in LEO, further out is the domain of robotics. (Until the reliability of ECLESS systems improves an order of magnitude) And the LEO microG lab is funded commercially.
I hope ESA refused to build ESM 4, SLS should be terminated. Integrate it on New Glenn with a pusher launch abort system. The USA and Nasa are wasting dozens of billions, totally unacceptable if you ask me.
« Last Edit: 10/15/2020 09:51 am by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline hektor

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #10 on: 10/15/2020 01:42 pm »
It will be human rated a bit in the same sense the ATV was. There will be astronauts around.

I am sure there are requirements which say it must not generate hazards for the crew interacting with it, sharp edges and the like.

Offline floss

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #11 on: 11/25/2020 12:58 pm »
Wonder will some of these missions be to make fuel .If you refuel these lenders they would make fantastic lunar hoppers and the ability to land defunct satellites for recycling would be very advantageous as the lunar town grows .
« Last Edit: 11/25/2020 12:58 pm by floss »

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #12 on: 11/25/2020 09:11 pm »
Wonder will some of these missions be to make fuel .If you refuel these lenders they would make fantastic lunar hoppers and the ability to land defunct satellites for recycling would be very advantageous as the lunar town grows .
What kind of stuff are you taking? Sorry but I think you've lost your marbles.
I think it's more than three orders of magnitude more likely that SpaceX Starlink will set off Kessler syndrome, than that one satellite will be serviced on or near the moon.

Back to more realistic stuff. Where do we expect the EL3 will be tested?

Offline hektor

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #13 on: 11/25/2020 09:42 pm »
EL3? If you are really optimistic I would say:

- Now they have a competitive Phase A/B between two contractors, the usual suspects Airbus Space and Thales Alenia Space
- It will conclude with CMIN 2022.
- At CMIN 2022 ESA will seek approval for FSD
- Take four/five years after that to reach FRR (of course if and only if approved @ CMIN)
- So let us say launch on Ariane 6 and landing in 2027.

Just a wild guess. That being said I am talking here of actual test flight to Moon surface. It could be testing on Earth before.
« Last Edit: 11/25/2020 09:58 pm by hektor »

Offline floss

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #14 on: 11/25/2020 11:58 pm »
Wonder will some of these missions be to make fuel .If you refuel these lenders they would make fantastic lunar hoppers and the ability to land defunct satellites for recycling would be very advantageous as the lunar town grows .
What kind of stuff are you taking? Sorry but I think you've lost your marbles.
I think it's more than three orders of magnitude more likely that SpaceX Starlink will set off Kessler syndrome, than that one satellite will be serviced on or near the moon.

Back to more realistic stuff. Where do we expect the EL3 will be tested?

No I was talking about after a lunar base is set up .any lunar base will be short of solar panels and tanks and carbon which GEO satellites are made of and quiet cheap to collect.

Offline eeergo

Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #15 on: 10/26/2021 07:17 am »
Schedule for EL3: launch in 2029.


"Not fast-track but fast for a typical ESA project"


European RHU and RTG also studied.
-DaviD-

Offline floss

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #16 on: 10/26/2021 09:18 am »
Cool eight years is good enough it usually is a twenty year cycle  for payloads to be made for a given rocket  that is ten years for the launcher to be built ten for the payload .

Offline hektor

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #17 on: 04/06/2022 07:13 pm »


Offline jebbo

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #19 on: 04/11/2022 01:22 pm »
Was just referred to as "Argonaut" during the ESA Q&A with Samantha Cristoforetti ... so I think the name is real, just unannounced.

--- Tony

Offline hektor

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Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #21 on: 06/15/2022 06:05 pm »
To the Moon, perhaps.  But why?

Offline hektor

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #22 on: 06/15/2022 06:13 pm »
Argonaut is launched by Ariane 64, so it is independent European access to the Lunar surface for cargoes.

It is a bargaining chip for a European astronaut on the Lunar surface. Like the JAXA rover.

We’ll see what the European member states decide about Argonaut this fall.
« Last Edit: 06/15/2022 06:14 pm by hektor »

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #23 on: 06/19/2022 03:05 pm »
In my opinion the only logical exploration activity are radio telescopes at the earth opposing side and exploration rovers. To put rovers on the lunar surface a logistic lander is needed. EL3/Argonaut is this lander.
Don't involve humans in space exploration beyond LEO, because 10s of billions of funding are required for scientific results that could be achieved with a billion with (unmanned systems) rovers and a lander system. So EL3 is in my opinion the logical exploration enabler that needs to be developed. I think the facility to test it is nearly ready.
Propulsive landing will most likely also be required for Mars exploration, this could be a follow-on development on EL3.

Online Tywin

Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #24 on: 10/20/2022 02:23 pm »
I hope this contract is awarded to Thales, it performs much better than Airbus-Ariane...
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Offline hektor

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #25 on: 10/20/2022 10:55 pm »
ESA contracts awards mostly depend from which member state invests the most in the project…

Offline baldusi

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #26 on: 10/20/2022 11:48 pm »
ESA contracts awards mostly depend from which member state invests the most in the project…
Both Thales and Airbus have subsidiaries in the main ESA members.

Offline hektor

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #27 on: 10/21/2022 06:24 pm »
Wrong, no Thales Alenia in Germany. If Germany has the majority stake in the program... you can imagine how it ends.
« Last Edit: 10/21/2022 06:28 pm by hektor »

Offline hektor

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #28 on: 02/24/2023 02:27 pm »
I made a thought experiment. ESA wants to use Argonaut as a bargaining chip with NASA to get a European astronaut on the surface.

For the argonaut to the Moon, with an Ariane 64 launch from Guiana, the operations and the spacecraft I assume we are talking maybe 500 Meuros. So they go to NASA and say, we spent half a billion to bring one ton of payload to the surface, grant us an astronaut on the surface !

Then NASA answers, sorry guys for that amount we can have xxx HLS to the Lunar surface which brings xxx times 100 t of payload. Even is xxx significantly lower than one, I do not see how ESA has bargaining power with Argonaut.

Do I miss something ? granularity ? there is a value to bring only a one ton payload increment ? access to areas where Starship cannot safely land ? anything ?
« Last Edit: 02/24/2023 02:28 pm by hektor »

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #29 on: 02/24/2023 04:15 pm »
I made a thought experiment. ESA wants to use Argonaut as a bargaining chip with NASA to get a European astronaut on the surface.

For the argonaut to the Moon, with an Ariane 64 launch from Guiana, the operations and the spacecraft I assume we are talking maybe 500 Meuros. So they go to NASA and say, we spent half a billion to bring one ton of payload to the surface, grant us an astronaut on the surface !

Then NASA answers, sorry guys for that amount we can have xxx HLS to the Lunar surface which brings xxx times 100 t of payload. Even is xxx significantly lower than one, I do not see how ESA has bargaining power with Argonaut.

Do I miss something ? granularity ? there is a value to bring only a one ton payload increment ? access to areas where Starship cannot safely land ? anything ?
The work to be done in ESA member states to developed and build a handful of bespoked boutique Lunar landers with 1 tonne payload capacity. It is pork barreling with at least 500M Euros to be allocated, IMO.

Offline hektor

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #30 on: 02/24/2023 04:34 pm »

The work to be done in ESA member states to developed and build a handful of bespoked boutique Lunar landers with 1 tonne payload capacity. It is pork barreling with at least 500M Euros to be allocated, IMO.

That part I understood. What is not clear to me is how ESA gets from NASA and the US Govt their "boots on the Moon" seat on an Artemis flight.

Online Tywin

Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #31 on: 02/24/2023 05:16 pm »

The work to be done in ESA member states to developed and build a handful of bespoked boutique Lunar landers with 1 tonne payload capacity. It is pork barreling with at least 500M Euros to be allocated, IMO.

That part I understood. What is not clear to me is how ESA gets from NASA and the US Govt their "boots on the Moon" seat on an Artemis flight.

And the modules for the Gateway dont buy thats seats on the Moon for ESA?
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Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #32 on: 02/24/2023 05:20 pm »

The work to be done in ESA member states to developed and build a handful of bespoked boutique Lunar landers with 1 tonne payload capacity. It is pork barreling with at least 500M Euros to be allocated, IMO.

That part I understood. What is not clear to me is how ESA gets from NASA and the US Govt their "boots on the Moon" seat on an Artemis flight.

Me think some sort of backroom deal that ESA get their Artemis Moon seat by signing up to the Artemis program and contributed some lander hardware to protected the program from cuts and cancellation from the Congressional critters.

NASA can pointed out to the critters that an International partner has contributed budget, lander hardware and resources. So the Artemis program is harder to be interfere with.

The Argonaut lander is the just some lander hardware. Operationally it add not much for payload delivery capacity to the surface of the Moon. Especially using the Ariane 64 as launcher.

Offline hektor

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #33 on: 02/24/2023 05:49 pm »


That part I understood. What is not clear to me is how ESA gets from NASA and the US Govt their "boots on the Moon" seat on an Artemis flight.

And the modules for the Gateway dont buy thats seats on the Moon for ESA?

My understanding is that the modules for the Gateway buy seats on board the Gateway.

Offline woods170

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #34 on: 02/24/2023 07:34 pm »

The work to be done in ESA member states to developed and build a handful of bespoked boutique Lunar landers with 1 tonne payload capacity. It is pork barreling with at least 500M Euros to be allocated, IMO.

That part I understood. What is not clear to me is how ESA gets from NASA and the US Govt their "boots on the Moon" seat on an Artemis flight.

And the modules for the Gateway dont buy thats seats on the Moon for ESA?

No, they don't. They only buy seats to Lunar Gateway, but not beyond.
Argonaut is the next thing to use as leverage to get European boots on the Lunar surface. But it remains to be seen if such a deal is accepted by NASA and the US State Department.

Edit: ninja'd by Hektor
« Last Edit: 02/24/2023 07:37 pm by woods170 »

Offline hektor

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #35 on: 02/24/2023 10:50 pm »
Ok so we are back to my original question.

My impression is that Starship with its low operating cost and huge payload to Lunar surface reduces considerably the bargaining power of the pair Ariane 64 / Argonaut.

So do I miss something which makes Ariane 64 / Argonaut against ESA astronaut on the surface a palatable deal for NASA much more than I think ?
« Last Edit: 02/24/2023 10:52 pm by hektor »

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #36 on: 02/24/2023 11:35 pm »
    "And the modules for the Gateway don't buy seats on the Moon for ESA?"


"No, they don't. They only buy seats to Lunar Gateway, but not beyond."

So far.  But negotiations will obviously continue as plans evolve.  The current situation is not the end of the story.

Offline hektor

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #37 on: 03/18/2023 10:49 am »
The Modules will remain the same. They have already been negociated against Orion seats to Gateway.

Never seen a negotiation where you get more with the same bargaining chip.
« Last Edit: 03/18/2023 10:50 am by hektor »

Online Tywin

Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #38 on: 03/18/2023 11:08 am »
What about the future habitats for the Artemis Base?

Maybe that buy the future seats...
« Last Edit: 03/18/2023 11:08 am by Tywin »
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Offline hektor

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #39 on: 04/26/2023 12:14 pm »
An interesting job opening  ;D

Argonaut Propulsion Lead

Quote
In order to both define specific mission applications and inform the generic design of the LDE so that it can accommodate a range of missions, several ESA CDF studies and pre-Phase A industrial studies have been conducted. The Phase B2/C/D development of the LDE will be initiated by the end of 2023 with the launch of the first mission targeted in 2030.
« Last Edit: 05/05/2023 12:47 pm by hektor »

Offline spacexplorer

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #40 on: 05/05/2023 07:20 am »
ESA Invitation To Tender for Airbus Defence and Space GmbH (DE) and Thales Alenia Space Italy SpA (IT) dated 24/3/2023:

https://esastar-publication-ext.sso.esa.int/interacts/details/33

Offline ironnitride

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #41 on: 07/18/2023 10:42 pm »
Wrong, no Thales Alenia in Germany. If Germany has the majority stake in the program... you can imagine how it ends.

ESA works on the policy of geo-return as you pointed out. A similar fraction of money contributed by each member state should be spent by companies in the same country as a rule of thumb.

The bulk of the cost of the program would be on hardware development and procurement so if the contractor manages to use German suppliers for some critical equipents geo-return can be balanced out. Germany is good at Engines, tanks and valves. 

Offline yg1968

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #42 on: 07/20/2023 01:58 pm »
Quote from: Space Transport
Ariane 6 will launch Argonaut in a direct flight to the Moon. 🚀🌑
Argonaut is #Europe’s autonomous lunar lander. Designed to be versatile it could bring cargo, a rover, production facilities or even a power station to the Moon: https://esa.int/argonaut

https://twitter.com/ESA_transport/status/1682020291277627396

Offline yg1968

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #43 on: 07/20/2023 02:01 pm »
The Modules will remain the same. They have already been negotiated against Orion seats to Gateway.

Never seen a negotiation where you get more with the same bargaining chip.

I think that the new bargaining chips are Argonaut and Moonlight. Presumably, ESA could trade these for a trip from Gateway to the lunar surface.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #44 on: 07/20/2023 02:09 pm »
Ok so we are back to my original question.

My impression is that Starship with its low operating cost and huge payload to Lunar surface reduces considerably the bargaining power of the pair Ariane 64 / Argonaut.

So do I miss something which makes Ariane 64 / Argonaut against ESA astronaut on the surface a palatable deal for NASA much more than I think ?

I see what you mean but I think that the argument is that NASA and its Artemis partners need small cargo (CLPS), medium (Argonaut) and large cargo capability (cargo HLS-Starship) to the lunar surface. Argonaut would fit into the medium cargo capability.

Online DanClemmensen

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #45 on: 07/20/2023 02:29 pm »
Ok so we are back to my original question.

My impression is that Starship with its low operating cost and huge payload to Lunar surface reduces considerably the bargaining power of the pair Ariane 64 / Argonaut.

So do I miss something which makes Ariane 64 / Argonaut against ESA astronaut on the surface a palatable deal for NASA much more than I think ?

I see what you mean but I think that the argument is that NASA and its Artemis partners need small cargo (CLPS), medium (Argonaut) and large cargo capability (cargo HLS-Starship) to the lunar surface. Argonaut would fit into the medium cargo capability.
The argument for three sizes is only valid if smaller is cheaper. IF starship works at all, and IF (big if) an expendable Starship is cheaper (single unit cost) than a smaller launcher, then this argument disappears. Of course Starship will also crush the competition for any lunar destination that is the target of multiple payloads that are collectively too large for the smaller landers. The huge Starship may end up being cheaper than smaller landers because Starships are to be made in high volume from cheap standardized materials. Finally, a landed expended Starship is a resource that can be used as is or broken up for parts and materials.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #46 on: 07/20/2023 06:58 pm »
Ok so we are back to my original question.

My impression is that Starship with its low operating cost and huge payload to Lunar surface reduces considerably the bargaining power of the pair Ariane 64 / Argonaut.

So do I miss something which makes Ariane 64 / Argonaut against ESA astronaut on the surface a palatable deal for NASA much more than I think ?

I see what you mean but I think that the argument is that NASA and its Artemis partners need small cargo (CLPS), medium (Argonaut) and large cargo capability (cargo HLS-Starship) to the lunar surface. Argonaut would fit into the medium cargo capability.
The argument for three sizes is only valid if smaller is cheaper. IF starship works at all, and IF (big if) an expendable Starship is cheaper (single unit cost) than a smaller launcher, then this argument disappears. Of course Starship will also crush the competition for any lunar destination that is the target of multiple payloads that are collectively too large for the smaller landers. The huge Starship may end up being cheaper than smaller landers because Starships are to be made in high volume from cheap standardized materials. Finally, a landed expended Starship is a resource that can be used as is or broken up for parts and materials.

I think that it is similar to smaller LVs. There is likely a need for smaller dedicated lunar missions. Flying Starship for a small cargo is overkill. Starship has yet to be awarded any CLPS missions, even though they are a potential provider.  NASA has yet to award any missions for HDL (HLS-cargo) also. HDL would be used for the pressurized rover and the foundation surface habitats but that's about it. I am not skeptical that Starship will work but I am skeptical that a Starship will be as cheap as what is expected (at least in the short term). The Artemis IV HLS-Starship is costing NASA $1.15B, so I am guessing that an HDL cargo mission would be about half that price.

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