Author Topic: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)  (Read 22662 times)

Offline hektor

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Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« on: 10/24/2019 11:29 am »
Woerner optimistic about ESA’s upcoming ministerial meeting

Quote
NASA’s plans to accelerate its plans to return humans to the moon by four years, to 2024, has not affected ESA’s plans to participate through modules for the lunar Gateway or a cargo lander called the European Large Logistics Lander planned for after that 2024 landing. “It’s just that the Americans decided to have two Americans on the surface of the moon in 2024,” he said. “That’s a national decision.”

This is news to me. What is this ?
« Last Edit: 04/06/2022 10:26 pm by zubenelgenubi »

Online Steven Pietrobon

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #1 on: 10/25/2019 03:49 am »
« Last Edit: 10/25/2019 03:49 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline hektor

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #2 on: 10/25/2019 07:35 am »
Interesting presentation, I see there is also a Cis-Lunar transfer vehicle (CLTV) which is mentioned for the Cornerstone 2.

Offline Jakdowski

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #3 on: 12/02/2019 05:27 pm »
The European Large Logistics Lander - Animation

Seems to be the same type of Lander Used For Heracles 



Offline Mammutti

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #4 on: 07/02/2020 04:04 pm »
Quote from: ESA
International space agencies are pushing towards the Moon and Europe intends to play a leading role on the surface. The European Lunar Lander will be designed to allow a series of different missions with different options for its payloads being studied. ESA’s European Lander project is in an intensive study phase and will follow into a full-fledged space project, if approved.

Two payload options were approved for study at Space19+: a delivery of logistics in support of human expeditions to the Moon, and a self-standing European science mission, potentially to return samples to Earth as a high-profile science mission. Missions combining one or more scientific experiments, technology demonstration, and cargo delivery could also be foreseen in the future. The versatility of the lander is therefore a strong part of the strategy.

The selection for the first payload will be made at the end of the study phase in 2022 with more missions for later flight opportunities lining up.

[...]

European Large Logistics Lander
Launcher   Ariane 64
Launch Site   Kourou, French Guyana
Mass on Earth   8500 kg
Mass on the Moon without cargo   1600 kg
Mass of delivered cargo   1500 kg
Size   4.5 m in diameter, up to 6 m tall
Mission types   Multiple and diverse: cargo, science rover, sample return stage, technology demonstration packages, in-situ resource production equipment, power generation equipment, ….

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/European_Large_Logistic_Lander

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #5 on: 07/03/2020 03:35 am »
The European Large Logistics Lander - Animation

Seems to be the same type of Lander Used For Heracles 




Is the linked video from ESA the same as the deleted YouTube video?
https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Videos/2019/11/Heracles_Cargo_Moon_Landing

Offline floss

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #6 on: 08/15/2020 05:12 pm »
Wonder what you can package up in a 1500 kg package wonder can you fit a glass heating element and a nitrogen tank.

Offline Jakdowski

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #7 on: 08/19/2020 08:39 pm »
The European Large Logistics Lander - Animation

Seems to be the same type of Lander Used For Heracles 




Is the linked video from ESA the same as the deleted YouTube video?
https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Videos/2019/11/Heracles_Cargo_Moon_Landing

Yes it is

Offline hektor

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Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #9 on: 10/15/2020 09:46 am »
European Moon-Lander Project Pits Airbus Against Thales
There is a mistake in this article. the EL3 will NOT be humanrated. It's for robotics and payloads.
I think ESA, CNES, DLR are wiser that NASA with their 'to fast' Artemis program. I fear Artemis will end the permanent human presence in space, not expand our presence. Without scientific reason NASA is spending dozens of billions to get some people on the moon again. Afaik NASA hasn't landed anything on the moon after Apollo. That's what should be done now, landing some rovers on the moon.

AFAIK, the Airbus Article hasn't been shared here:
Airbus selected for ESA’s Moon lander study
Quote
EL3 flights are set to begin in the late 2020s, with a cadence of missions over the following decade and more.
Quote
ESA anticipates flying three to five EL3 missions over a 10 year time frame.



I say; that's the right ambition for ESA for Moon exploration, besides a LEO microG laboratory and the Mars Sample Return mission, for the 2025-2039 period. Humans should remain in LEO, further out is the domain of robotics. (Until the reliability of ECLESS systems improves an order of magnitude) And the LEO microG lab is funded commercially.
I hope ESA refused to build ESM 4, SLS should be terminated. Integrate it on New Glenn with a pusher launch abort system. The USA and Nasa are wasting dozens of billions, totally unacceptable if you ask me.
« Last Edit: 10/15/2020 09:51 am by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline hektor

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #10 on: 10/15/2020 01:42 pm »
It will be human rated a bit in the same sense the ATV was. There will be astronauts around.

I am sure there are requirements which say it must not generate hazards for the crew interacting with it, sharp edges and the like.

Offline floss

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #11 on: 11/25/2020 12:58 pm »
Wonder will some of these missions be to make fuel .If you refuel these lenders they would make fantastic lunar hoppers and the ability to land defunct satellites for recycling would be very advantageous as the lunar town grows .
« Last Edit: 11/25/2020 12:58 pm by floss »

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #12 on: 11/25/2020 09:11 pm »
Wonder will some of these missions be to make fuel .If you refuel these lenders they would make fantastic lunar hoppers and the ability to land defunct satellites for recycling would be very advantageous as the lunar town grows .
What kind of stuff are you taking? Sorry but I think you've lost your marbles.
I think it's more than three orders of magnitude more likely that SpaceX Starlink will set off Kessler syndrome, than that one satellite will be serviced on or near the moon.

Back to more realistic stuff. Where do we expect the EL3 will be tested?

Offline hektor

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #13 on: 11/25/2020 09:42 pm »
EL3? If you are really optimistic I would say:

- Now they have a competitive Phase A/B between two contractors, the usual suspects Airbus Space and Thales Alenia Space
- It will conclude with CMIN 2022.
- At CMIN 2022 ESA will seek approval for FSD
- Take four/five years after that to reach FRR (of course if and only if approved @ CMIN)
- So let us say launch on Ariane 6 and landing in 2027.

Just a wild guess. That being said I am talking here of actual test flight to Moon surface. It could be testing on Earth before.
« Last Edit: 11/25/2020 09:58 pm by hektor »

Offline floss

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #14 on: 11/25/2020 11:58 pm »
Wonder will some of these missions be to make fuel .If you refuel these lenders they would make fantastic lunar hoppers and the ability to land defunct satellites for recycling would be very advantageous as the lunar town grows .
What kind of stuff are you taking? Sorry but I think you've lost your marbles.
I think it's more than three orders of magnitude more likely that SpaceX Starlink will set off Kessler syndrome, than that one satellite will be serviced on or near the moon.

Back to more realistic stuff. Where do we expect the EL3 will be tested?

No I was talking about after a lunar base is set up .any lunar base will be short of solar panels and tanks and carbon which GEO satellites are made of and quiet cheap to collect.

Offline eeergo

Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #15 on: 10/26/2021 07:17 am »
Schedule for EL3: launch in 2029.


"Not fast-track but fast for a typical ESA project"


European RHU and RTG also studied.
-DaviD-

Offline floss

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #16 on: 10/26/2021 09:18 am »
Cool eight years is good enough it usually is a twenty year cycle  for payloads to be made for a given rocket  that is ten years for the launcher to be built ten for the payload .

Offline hektor

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Re: European Large Logistics Lander
« Reply #17 on: 04/06/2022 07:13 pm »


Offline jebbo

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Re: Argonaut (European Large Logistics Lander)
« Reply #19 on: 04/11/2022 01:22 pm »
Was just referred to as "Argonaut" during the ESA Q&A with Samantha Cristoforetti ... so I think the name is real, just unannounced.

--- Tony

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