Author Topic: PLD Space General Updates and Discussions Thread  (Read 112283 times)

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11681
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 9316
  • Likes Given: 8061
It's Tony De La Rosa, ...and no, I'm not a Feline Dealer!!

Offline Steven Pietrobon

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 39302
  • Adelaide, Australia
    • Steven Pietrobon's Space Archive
  • Liked: 32871
  • Likes Given: 8356
Re: PLD Space General Updates and Discussions Thread
« Reply #201 on: 01/24/2024 02:23 am »
Translation.

"We are very happy to be one of the five European companies (and the only Spanish one) selected as a launch provider for the @EU_Commission and @esa in the Flight Ticket Initiative."
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11681
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 9316
  • Likes Given: 8061
It's Tony De La Rosa, ...and no, I'm not a Feline Dealer!!

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11681
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 9316
  • Likes Given: 8061
It's Tony De La Rosa, ...and no, I'm not a Feline Dealer!!

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11681
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 9316
  • Likes Given: 8061
It's Tony De La Rosa, ...and no, I'm not a Feline Dealer!!

Offline PM3

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1487
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1842
  • Likes Given: 1305
Re: PLD Space General Updates and Discussions Thread
« Reply #205 on: 01/30/2024 09:48 am »
This is extremely good news. The government is enganged and has pretty unlimited funds at hand. Miura 5 now is a project of strategic national importance. This makes it European small launcher No. 3 - besides RFA One and ArianeSpace's Maia - which is funded throughout the first demo flights and has a good chance to prevail (by itself, or by being upgraded to a larger launcher).

Report by Jeff Foust:

https://spacenews.com/pld-space-wins-spanish-government-funding-for-miura-5-launch-vehicle/
« Last Edit: 01/30/2024 12:37 pm by PM3 »
"Never, never be afraid of the truth." -- Jim Bridenstine

Offline Rik ISS-fan

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1527
  • the Netherlands
  • Liked: 626
  • Likes Given: 212
Re: PLD Space General Updates and Discussions Thread
« Reply #206 on: 01/30/2024 08:04 pm »
This is extremely good news. The government is enganged and has pretty unlimited funds at hand. Miura 5 now is a project of strategic national importance. This makes it European small launcher No. 3 - besides RFA One and ArianeSpace's Maia - which is funded throughout the first demo flights and has a good chance to prevail (by itself, or by being upgraded to a larger launcher).

Report by Jeff Foust:

https://spacenews.com/pld-space-wins-spanish-government-funding-for-miura-5-launch-vehicle/

Sorry my opinion is very different. In my opinion PLD space has not a good launcher design with Miura 5, because they are required to develop two very different engines for it. Each engine costs roughly 100mln to develop and certify for orbital launch. So with this funding they are under 20% of the funding required to get Miura 5 operational.
For main land Europe, I think there are at least five orbital launchers further along in development than Miura 5.
If the UK is included there are over seven launcher ahead of Miura 5.


Offline deltaV

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2207
  • Change in velocity
  • Liked: 641
  • Likes Given: 2235
Re: PLD Space General Updates and Discussions Thread
« Reply #207 on: 01/31/2024 01:36 am »
In my opinion PLD space has not a good launcher design with Miura 5, because they are required to develop two very different engines for it.

Their first stage is powered by 5 TEPREL-C engines and their second stage is powered by 1 TEPREL-C vacuum engine. The names of the engines suggest they're related but the vacuum engine has about one fourth the thrust (per engine). Either the two versions of the engine have roughly the same mass (excluding nozzle), in which case the vacuum version has a really bad thrust to weight ratio, or the vacuum version is much lighter, in which case most of the parts (weighted by mass) aren't shared. So I guess I agree with Rik's criticism of Miura 5. I wonder why they aren't using a greater number of first stage engines (like most other modern launchers do) so they can use the same engine on both stages.

Edit: if the sea level engines have about 4 copies of most of the hardware they could reuse more parts but that would make the 5 sea level engines basically ~20 engines in disguise so why not be simpler and use ~20 ordinary engines.
« Last Edit: 01/31/2024 01:49 am by deltaV »

Offline DeimosDream

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Atlanta
  • Liked: 107
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: PLD Space General Updates and Discussions Thread
« Reply #208 on: 01/31/2024 12:17 pm »
In my opinion PLD space has not a good launcher design with Miura 5, because they are required to develop two very different engines for it.

Most rockets have very different 1st stage and upper stage engines. Falcon and Electron just happen to be two very successful examples of the same-engine philosophy, but that wasn't enough for Terran-1 to succeed at market, and it didn't stop Atlas V from being a success.

Their first stage is powered by 5 TEPREL-C engines and their second stage is powered by 1 TEPREL-C vacuum engine. The names of the engines suggest they're related but the vacuum engine has about one fourth the thrust (per engine).

Presumably the "TEPREL-C vacuum" is a relatively minor redesign / vacuums optimization of the TEPREL-B that they already developed and flew on Miura. "TEPREL-C sealevel" really should have been named TEPREL-D or TEPREL-2 to indicate different engine, common heritage. Keeping the same TEPREL-C suggests they expect to just build the same design/layout at 200%+ scale.

Offline deltaV

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2207
  • Change in velocity
  • Liked: 641
  • Likes Given: 2235
Re: PLD Space General Updates and Discussions Thread
« Reply #209 on: 01/31/2024 06:33 pm »
Most rockets have very different 1st stage and upper stage engines. Falcon and Electron just happen to be two very successful examples of the same-engine philosophy, but that wasn't enough for Terran-1 to succeed at market, and it didn't stop Atlas V from being a success.

Historically first and second stage engines have usually been different but common engine designs seems to be the state of the art these days for cost-effective launch vehicles. You mentioned Falcon, Electron and Terran 1 as using common engines; Starship, Neutron, Terran R, Maia, and RFA One are five more. SLS, Ariane 6 and Vulcan use different engines but those are mostly-expendable rockets that are unlikely to be cost effective. New Glenn and Stoke's Nova use different engines and may be cost effective so I wouldn't say having two different engine types is always wrong, it's just a decision that needs justification and I don't see it for Miura 5. (For Nova the justification to use different engines is clear from their second stage reuse plans. For New Glenn the justification for using different engines isn't clear and I wonder if Blue Origin would have been better off with fewer than the 4 engines they have, namely BE-3U, BE-3PM, BE-4, and BE-7. Replies to this parenthetical comment probably belong in other threads.)
« Last Edit: 02/01/2024 04:17 am by deltaV »

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11681
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 9316
  • Likes Given: 8061
Re: PLD Space General Updates and Discussions Thread
« Reply #210 on: 02/19/2024 01:47 pm »
https://twitter.com/PLD_Space/status/1759528129368871031

Quote
🚀📷We are proud to announce that today we have signed a Boost! contract with
@esa
 for the development of a customizable payload accommodation system for MIURA 5.

The goal of this modular payload adapter, in partnership with OCCAM Space, is to offer our customers as much flexibility as possible.

Read more here 📷https://bit.ly/42Kjlu4
It's Tony De La Rosa, ...and no, I'm not a Feline Dealer!!

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11681
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 9316
  • Likes Given: 8061
Re: PLD Space General Updates and Discussions Thread
« Reply #211 on: 02/19/2024 01:49 pm »
https://twitter.com/AschbacherJosef/status/1759534550240084031

Quote
.
@ESA will support 🇪🇸 @PLD_Space's Miura 5 launch service development by co-funding to the value of €1.3 million. Designed to release all types of satellites with as much flexibility as possible, the payload system will increase market competitiveness and ensure that many different types of satellites and customers can fly 👏
« Last Edit: 02/19/2024 01:49 pm by catdlr »
It's Tony De La Rosa, ...and no, I'm not a Feline Dealer!!

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11681
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 9316
  • Likes Given: 8061
Re: PLD Space General Updates and Discussions Thread
« Reply #212 on: 02/22/2024 03:36 pm »
https://twitter.com/PLD_Space/status/1760701673322733726

Quote
👥🚀This week we have met with industry colleagues in one of the most relevant small satellite event in Europe,  #SSSIF2024 where we are the Digital Sponsor.

We had the opportunity to unveil the latest details of MIURA 5 and to participate in different panels talking about relevant topics such as investment in space or new technologies.

A pleasure to have shared with you these profitable days 👏
It's Tony De La Rosa, ...and no, I'm not a Feline Dealer!!

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11681
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 9316
  • Likes Given: 8061
Re: PLD Space General Updates and Discussions Thread
« Reply #213 on: 02/22/2024 03:50 pm »
https://twitter.com/Alexphysics13/status/1641583678928166912

Quote
Thanks to
@PLD_Space
 for hosting our media at their launch site in El Arenosillo today. It was great to see Miura 1 close up and talk about the rocket and support equipment with @ingverdu, @PabloPLD_Space, @ezequielsanchez, and their talented engineers.

Vamos Miura!
It's Tony De La Rosa, ...and no, I'm not a Feline Dealer!!

Offline moontomars

  • Member
  • Posts: 7
  • Liked: 18
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: PLD Space General Updates and Discussions Thread
« Reply #214 on: 02/24/2024 12:23 pm »
I've done my yearly update and I would have to agree with Rik here that this funding round is not really good news. To me it seems more like a symbol of the failing European market and the lack of alternatives in Spain. But let me explain.

I looked at the company's numbers and projections from their funding round where they targeted private individuals as well as their most recent annual report for the year 2022. What I see is a pattern of either gross misrepresentation, negligence and/or incompetence, specifically looking at the last 10-15 years of how this company and the management has operated.

There have been a few business plans in older pitch decks, however none of those have come anywhere close to being true. Let’s go through them, one by one. Here are the slides and projections from 2018 - remember how old this company is and what these guys have been selling everyone for over 10 years now:



Here are now their projections from their most recent published annual report. We’ve contrasted the numbers with their public information in their SEGO Finance crowdfunding offer, both published less than 8 weeks apart! On this chart, the orange numbers indicate the retail investor offering, whereas the red indicates the numbers according to their annual report. As you can see, though published at almost the same time, the numbers differ quite a bit. The commercialization of MIURA 5 starts with 4 launches in 2025, whereas internal numbers project just a single launch in 2025.

Even more striking: In their timeline on SEGO venture, they announced the “Lanzamiento MIURA 5” – meaning the first launch of the MIURA 5 in 2024.



OK, we thought, so this must have been just a test launch, right? While this seems like a valid explanation, what is not so clear is why PLD has projected full revenue of 9,6 million Euros for their MIURA 5 launch in their financial projection in the SEGO offer in 2024. As you can also tell, their revenue projections where a lot more optimistic in what they were selling retail investors – “successfully” for the full sum of over 4.000.000 Euros. Talk about grift.



To bring it home, their most recent PR announcement states the following: “During 2025, the focus will be on the qualification process and the maiden flight of the first MIURA 5 unit. The company expects to begin commercial operations in 2026 with the goal of exceeding 30 launches annually by 2030.

None of the projections either make sense or are realistic, unfortunately, with a lot more uncovered, such as labor costs. For the annual report data, labor costs are actually decreasing (!!) in their launch ramp-up between 2026 to 2028, while the crowdfunding offer says labor-costs will go from 8,5 million to 15 million between 2023 and 2025, a time in which PLD supposedly more than doubles the number of employees yet decreases the average salary by…20%?

Compare this with their other numbers which project a maximum of 14 or 18 launches by 2030 respectively, starting with launches in 2024 and 2025 – both of which are already unrealistic.



In my opinion, talking about the issues with the engine or technical setup is almost pointless, as the issues here are much more profound.

If you're interested in the full update, the article is here https://moontomars.space/space-companies/pld-space/

Offline Tywin

Re: PLD Space General Updates and Discussions Thread
« Reply #215 on: 02/24/2024 02:18 pm »
Remember PLD sells stocks to "amateurs" investors, fot 1 or 2 millions of euros, the last years, something not very normal, IF you can raise money with VC or banks...
The knowledge is power...Everything is connected...
The Turtle continues at a steady pace ...

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0