Author Topic: ESA - Vega Updates (Vega, Vega C/C+, Vega E, Vega Next : 2005 and forward)  (Read 306848 times)

Offline bolun

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #100 on: 12/14/2011 03:49 pm »
First launch contracts for Vega: Arianespace to launch two satellites in the Sentinel-2 and Sentinel-3 families

Evry, December 14, 2011

http://www.arianespace.com/news-press-release/2011/12-14-2011-Vega-Premiers-contract.asp

Offline bolun

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #101 on: 12/14/2011 08:46 pm »

Offline bolun

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #102 on: 01/24/2012 12:31 pm »
http://www.spacenews.com/launch/012312-vega-expected-price-competitive-with-russian-rockets.html

Vega Expected to be Price-competitive With Russian Rockets

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Europe’s Vega small-satellite launcher, whose inaugural flight is scheduled for mid-February, will be sold commercially for about 32 million euros ($42 million) per launch — a price that can compete with converted Russian ballistic missiles, Vega officials said Jan. 23.
« Last Edit: 01/24/2012 12:32 pm by bolun »

Offline bolun

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #103 on: 01/29/2012 09:08 pm »
http://www.spacenews.com/civil/120127-vega-maiden-flight-nears.html

Europeanized Upper Stage Sought for Vega as Maiden Flight Nears

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European Space Agency (ESA) governments will be asked to finance only minor modifications to Europe’s new Vega small-satellite launcher when they meet November, with the main goal to position Vega as a fully European vehicle, Vega officials said Jan. 24.

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Vega is envisioned as launching two times a year starting in 2013. The inaugural flight will carry the Italian government’s Lares laser reflector experiment and seven small satellites that will be placed in a lower orbit than Lares following the re-ignition of Vega’s Avum upper stage.

It is the Avum stage, whose motor can be restarted up to five times in flight, that sticks out in Vega insofar as it is built in Ukraine, not in Europe. At the November ESA conference, Vega managers will try to attract a European provider, preferably Germany’s Astrium Space Transportation, to build a replacement upper stage.

Offline Spiff

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #104 on: 01/30/2012 09:49 am »
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... as it is built in Ukraine, not in Europe. ...

Since when is the Ukraine not in Europe?  ???
I always consider space to be the FIRST frontier.

Offline baldusi

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #105 on: 01/30/2012 11:41 am »
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... as it is built in Ukraine, not in Europe. ...

Since when is the Ukraine not in Europe?  ???
Depends on your definition, really. Wither cultural or geographical. But they probably mean European Union-Europe, or ESA-Europe.

Offline Spiff

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #106 on: 01/30/2012 02:10 pm »
I agree they probably mean ESA. But the statement where it is claimed Ukraine is not in Europe is simply not true. Neither geographical nor cultural.

Doesn't matter though. It's semantics really...
I always consider space to be the FIRST frontier.

Offline baldusi

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #107 on: 01/30/2012 06:48 pm »
I've finally found it! The engine on the AVUM is the Yuzhnoye RD-869. And the designer of the stage is stated as ELV. Does anyone know who's that? May be the Belgian company in charge of the GNC?

Offline belegor

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #108 on: 01/30/2012 08:47 pm »
And the designer of the stage is stated as ELV. Does anyone know who's that? May be the Belgian company in charge of the GNC?

From http://www.elv.it/en/who-we-are/society/:
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Elv (European Launch Vehicle) is a company established by Avio and ASI (Italian Space Agency) in December 2000. It was selected by ESA, the European Space Agency, to serve as prime contractor in the activities geared to the development of the European launcher, called Vega, and other small launchers with all associated technologies. The company is responsible for every aspect of system development, from the drafting of the specifications, through production, to its integration in the launch pad. Elv's primary tasks include managing and planning launcher design, development, qualification and production processes, by coordinating the activities of the subcontracts participating in the programme. Moreover, ELV coordinates and ensures the integration of the launcher in the lift-off facilities and participates with a team in the final stage of the launch.

At present Elv is owned 70% by Avio SpA and 30% by ASI. Headquartered in Rome, it has an operational facility in Colleferro (Rome), where Avio has its main aerospace operations: one of the most dynamically innovative production centres, at the forefront of science and technology.

Offline bolun

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #109 on: 01/31/2012 12:48 pm »

Offline simpl simon

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #110 on: 01/31/2012 02:04 pm »
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... as it is built in Ukraine, not in Europe. ...

Since when is the Ukraine not in Europe?  ???
Depends on your definition, really. Wither cultural or geographical. But they probably mean European Union-Europe, or ESA-Europe.

The Ukraine is not a member state of ESA, so procuring the upper stage means a cash flow out of the ESA budget to a "foreign" country, regardless of its geographical location or cultural relationship. The preferred solution would be to have the upper stage produced by an industrial consortium from ESA member states so that the money stays in Europe and European industry benefits from potential future sales of Vega. However, during the original development phase when this approach would normally have been agreed, Germany did not contribute to the program (or only very little, for specialised equipment), because German industry had already invested its own money to set up the Eurockot launcher, a joint venture between Astrium and Khrunichev. At that time, Germany and German industry were not happy that ESA member states, at the urging of Italy, were using public money to duplicate a launch service that was already available commercially. The most suitable motor available at the time was Yuzhnoye's RD-869.

However, many millions of Euros overspend and many years of schedule overruns later (and with supplies of Rockot becoming irregular), the time has come to make Vega a completely ESA rocket and this means replacing the current upper stage. German industry (i.e. Astrium) is best placed to provide a new upper stage, assuming Germany will contribute to the program. This will also provide an opportunity to evolve the vehicle and possibly create alternative launch configurations to make it more versatile. In particular, a new upper stage would make it possible to replace the existing 3rd and 4th stages. Another decision for the November council meeting, as noted in the article.

Offline sammie

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #111 on: 01/31/2012 03:55 pm »
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The preferred solution would be to have the upper stage produced by an industrial consortium from ESA member states so that the money stays in Europe and European industry benefits from potential future sales of Vega.

As apposed to buying a complete system such as the Soyuz from Russia? I still think it's a big sham on how the Vega and Soyuz ST are being marketed. Creating a closed market for European satellites and claiming that customers supposed to buy "European rockets" regardless of the price. Right now science mission are paying a premium to fly European and all sorts of accounting tricks are used to make Arianespace break even at the end of a fiscal year. 

Oh well, I suppose Rockot had a failure at a critical time, and the Breeze KM shortage didn't help it either.
"The dreams ain't broken downhere, they're just walking with a limp"

Offline baldusi

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #112 on: 01/31/2012 04:35 pm »
They have talked about using a 3rd and 4th stages with CH4/LOX. It would be a very interesting development.

Offline simpl simon

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #113 on: 01/31/2012 09:17 pm »
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The preferred solution would be to have the upper stage produced by an industrial consortium from ESA member states so that the money stays in Europe and European industry benefits from potential future sales of Vega.

As apposed to buying a complete system such as the Soyuz from Russia? I still think it's a big sham on how the Vega and Soyuz ST are being marketed. Creating a closed market for European satellites and claiming that customers supposed to buy "European rockets" regardless of the price. Right now science mission are paying a premium to fly European and all sorts of accounting tricks are used to make Arianespace break even at the end of a fiscal year. 

Oh well, I suppose Rockot had a failure at a critical time, and the Breeze KM shortage didn't help it either.

Well, Europe doesn't buy the Soyuz launch vehicles, the customers do. And Arianespace gets a cut because it is a member of Starsem. Also, launching Soyuz and Vega from Kourou will enable the fixed costs of the launch site to be carried by three systems instead of just one.
I don't follow the rest of your post, but concerning Arianespace - it has made a financial loss for the past few years, which has caused the ESA member states to carry out a detailed audit on its finances and make new calls for better governance.


Offline sammie

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #114 on: 02/01/2012 08:45 am »
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I don't follow the rest of your post, but concerning Arianespace - it has made a financial loss for the past few years, which has caused the ESA member states to carry out a detailed audit on its finances and make new calls for better governance.

Sorry for not making myself clear. I was being a bit grumpy. What I meant is that the pricing strategy of Arianespace doesn't reflect the costs they incur for launching the rockets and operating the facilities. It seems to me that they determine the price of launch on a formula of "going market rate + 25%". Any shortfall in the operating budget is covered by subsidies from CNES and ESA.

What irks me is that we're made to believe there was ever a commercial case for Vega. That it could be operated with a small profit margin and that it can compete with other rockets, which balony. ESA customers are forced to buy "European" even when there are cheaper alternatives available, which I think is inherently bad for science. Only under a few circumstances can foreign launch providers be contracted.

I still don't get why it's perfectly OK to buy a Soyuz ST from Russia, but a Ukrainian upper stage is deemed unsatisfactory because money slips out the closed ESA system. But money spend on Soyuz ST also leaves the ESA system. I think you would agree that most payloads for the Soyuz ST are science missions, forced again to pay 20% or so premium just because they have to buy from Arianespace.

I guess it just irks me that a system that is one big industrial subsidy system is being promoted as sound business on an open market place.

"The dreams ain't broken downhere, they're just walking with a limp"

Offline plutogno

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #115 on: 02/01/2012 11:28 am »
ESA customers are forced to buy "European" even when there are cheaper alternatives available

I have seen this repeated many times and it simply is NOT TRUE!
ESA sats have been launched on launchers from all over the world, not only European, but also US (think of SOHO on Atlas), Russian (Cluster, Mars and Venus Express, Cryosat etc.), Indian, etc. and satellites from the space agencies of many European countries have flown on many different types of rockets, not necessarily EU-made.
On the contrary, this is true for US governmental agencies, civilian and military. IIRC, the first NASA science sat that will be launched on a foreign rocket is the Webb Space Telescope (on Ariane V).
As for the rest of your post, I am also quite skeptical of the commercial market for Vega. Vega was conceived at a time when LEO was perceived as a huge commercial market, but this market has since failed to materialize.

Offline sammie

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #116 on: 02/01/2012 11:40 am »
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ESA sats have been launched on launchers from all over the world

Because in the past and maybe for another year there weren't any other options other then using these foreign launch vehicles. It was the main reason for developing this family of launchers for Arianespace. If you have a captured audience that has to order your products, and other government sources are willing to pay for the development, then why not.

If only half the money spent on developing Vega would have been spent on developing satellites and running science programs, ESA would have had a lot more to show for itself then yet another small launch vehicle.
« Last Edit: 02/01/2012 11:42 am by sammie »
"The dreams ain't broken downhere, they're just walking with a limp"

Offline plutogno

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #117 on: 02/01/2012 11:48 am »
If only half the money spent on developing Vega would have been spent on developing satellites and running science programs, ESA would have had a lot more to show for itself then yet another small launch vehicle.

I agree with you on this.
In the end it was politics: Vega was approved at a time when ESA had an Italian director general and Italian industry had been pushing for years to develop a "light" all-solid launcher. Even the name "Vega" is an Italian acronym for "advanced generation European launcher".

(note: I am Italian)

Offline agman25

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #118 on: 02/07/2012 03:26 pm »
Vega Launcher Targets Government Market

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=space&id=news/awst/2012/02/06/AW_02_06_2012_p50-420459.xml&headline=Vega%20Launcher%20Targets%20Government%20Market

"Led by Italy, ESA governments have invested about €700 million ($922 million) in Vega. In addition to the development costs they have also committed €400 million for the Vega validation program, which includes five ESA-financed Vega launches of government payloads between 2013-15."

Offline cheesybagel

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Re: ESA - Vega Updates
« Reply #119 on: 02/15/2012 12:17 am »
This project is so very late. They should also have developed the successor to this socket (P230+P80+Aestus engine powered upper stage) and this way there would have been no need to have Soyuz launches. For some reason the French did not have the patience to wait or did not believe the Italians would deliver the Vinci. But they did.

This seems increasingly to be turning into a state where only the Chinese can win. Maybe SpaceX as well if it doesn't bankrupt itself in the process.

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