A_M_Swallow - 17/1/2008 12:54 PMNo the EU thinks Galileo will generate lots of manufacturing jobs selling GPS receivers to the general public. That electronics manufacturing jobs moved to Asia never to return in the 1960s is something the EUs 1950s mentality cannot understand.
Blackstar - 17/1/2008 5:44 PMThe Europeans are entitled to spend their money any way that they want. I don't think this is the best way for them to do it, however. What they really need is a better system for military intel, so that they don't have to rely upon the Americans for it, and don't complain when the Americans don't immediately provide the intel that they want (what happened during Kosovo). However, the problem is that doing this is essentially funding a military system, and so it is less popular than funding something that is viewed as a civilian system with military uses (Galileo).
Blackstar - 17/1/2008 4:44 PMQuoteChris Bergin - 17/1/2008 2:48 AMQuoteSphereion - 17/1/2008 8:35 AMNo. America does what it wants and expects the world to do what America wants.You're losing context there. His full sentence was:"Well, I'm sure you have no problem with Americans wasting money on stupid things. After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?"Not sure how anyone can draw exception to that.I think he was making a sarcastic anti-American comment, and I have no problem with that.The Europeans are entitled to spend their money any way that they want. I don't think this is the best way for them to do it, however. What they really need is a better system for military intel, so that they don't have to rely upon the Americans for it, and don't complain when the Americans don't immediately provide the intel that they want (what happened during Kosovo). However, the problem is that doing this is essentially funding a military system, and so it is less popular than funding something that is viewed as a civilian system with military uses (Galileo). Plus, I think Galileo is viewed as a bigger gravy train, because it requires a lot of satellites (as opposed to a few intel satellites) and so the launch providers can sell more rockets and the satellite builders can build more satellites and therefore the corporations are happy.
Chris Bergin - 17/1/2008 2:48 AMQuoteSphereion - 17/1/2008 8:35 AMNo. America does what it wants and expects the world to do what America wants.You're losing context there. His full sentence was:"Well, I'm sure you have no problem with Americans wasting money on stupid things. After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?"Not sure how anyone can draw exception to that.
Sphereion - 17/1/2008 8:35 AMNo. America does what it wants and expects the world to do what America wants.
ckiki lwai - 17/1/2008 5:41 PMQuoteBlackstar - 17/1/2008 5:44 PMWe don't have a European army, spy satellites would have to be funded on national level not on European level.Maybe the Americans should drop their GPS and use our Galileo satellites, and spend the money on education and social welfare. Europe could call them "information gathering satellites" and insist that they're non-military. Japan does that.We already spend quite a bit of money on education and social welfare.
Blackstar - 17/1/2008 5:44 PMWe don't have a European army, spy satellites would have to be funded on national level not on European level.Maybe the Americans should drop their GPS and use our Galileo satellites, and spend the money on education and social welfare.
Blackstar - 14/1/2008 11:33 AMQuoteedkyle99 - 14/1/2008 10:46 AMWhen Galileo was proposed, the U.S. response was to recommended that the system either not be deployed or, if it was, that the U.S. be allowed to "jam" it when needed! Actually, the US proposal was that the Europeans put in the ability to turn it off in event of hostilities. As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it. We were just trying to be polite."
edkyle99 - 14/1/2008 10:46 AMWhen Galileo was proposed, the U.S. response was to recommended that the system either not be deployed or, if it was, that the U.S. be allowed to "jam" it when needed!
Blackstar - 18/1/2008 1:50 AMQuoteckiki lwai- 17/1/2008 5:44 PMWe don't have a European army, spy satellites would have to be funded on national level not on European level.Maybe the Americans should drop their GPS and use our Galileo satellites, and spend the money on education and social welfare. Europe could call them "information gathering satellites" and insist that they're non-military. Japan does that.
ckiki lwai- 17/1/2008 5:44 PMWe don't have a European army, spy satellites would have to be funded on national level not on European level.Maybe the Americans should drop their GPS and use our Galileo satellites, and spend the money on education and social welfare.
We already spend quite a bit of money on education and social welfare.
Thomas ESA - 18/1/2008 2:02 AMIF that was even true, we would tell the Americans to walk out and close the door behind them, promptly! They would not dare jam Galileo also.
Nate_Trost - 18/1/2008 5:19 PMQuoteThomas ESA - 18/1/2008 2:02 AMIF that was even true, we would tell the Americans to walk out and close the door behind them, promptly! They would not dare jam Galileo also.In a theoretical future conflict with China? Yes, I'm pretty sure the USAF would.
ckiki lwai - 19/1/2008 2:31 AMQuoteNate_Trost - 18/1/2008 5:19 PMIn a theoretical future conflict with China? Yes, I'm pretty sure the USAF would.Not if one the US allies uses Galileo for its weapons...
Nate_Trost - 18/1/2008 5:19 PMIn a theoretical future conflict with China? Yes, I'm pretty sure the USAF would.
Martin FL - 19/1/2008 1:07 PMThere isn't a European Government is there? It's national governments?
Chris Bergin - 19/1/2008 7:13 AMBut power is held with the sovereign states/countries. See the individual choices on joining the war against terror. Wasn't a "European" decision.
Martin FL - 19/1/2008 1:23 PMQuoteChris Bergin - 19/1/2008 7:13 AMBut power is held with the sovereign states/countries. See the individual choices on joining the war against terror. Wasn't a "European" decision.Yeah, the French left us out to dry on that :angry:
Martin FL - 19/1/2008 2:07 PMThere isn't a European Government is there? It's national governments?
Blackstar - 19/1/2008 1:43 PMQuoteckiki lwai - 19/1/2008 2:31 AMQuoteNate_Trost - 18/1/2008 5:19 PMIn a theoretical future conflict with China? Yes, I'm pretty sure the USAF would.Not if one the US allies uses Galileo for its weapons...A-Which is exactly what the US is wishing to avoid.B-And it depends upon which ally, really.In response to the previous comment that the US would not do this, presumably because it would anger the Europeans, don't you think that recent experience with President Bush demonstrates that the United States will ignore European government opinion if the president considers the national security issues to be important enough? In other words, do you believe that somebody like George Bush would _not_ jam Galileo?
ckiki lwai - 19/1/2008 5:04 PMBut what would be the tactical advantage of jamming Galileo in the first place?The Chinese would be foolish to base their weapons on it...
A_M_Swallow - 19/1/2008 1:06 PMQuoteckiki lwai - 19/1/2008 5:04 PMBut what would be the tactical advantage of jamming Galileo in the first place?The Chinese would be foolish to base their weapons on it...Over the years people have done lots of foolish things with their weapons.The advantage to the Chinese of using GPS receivers is that they are cheap since they will be made in China. In a Chinese-Russian war the USA is unlikely to jam Galileo.
Blackstar - 19/1/2008 9:18 PMBut I think another possible scenario is that Europe fields Galileo, France develops weapons that rely upon Galileo which it then exports. Thus, the United States would still seek a way to jam Galileo, because it could always end up facing weapons that rely upon it.
ADC9 - 20/1/2008 5:50 AMQuoteBlackstar - 19/1/2008 9:18 PMBut I think another possible scenario is that Europe fields Galileo, France develops weapons that rely upon Galileo which it then exports. Thus, the United States would still seek a way to jam Galileo, because it could always end up facing weapons that rely upon it.If France does not deem whatever country it wishes to do business with as a terrorist state, then France would be within rights to do so. If by example, then the right would be given to act against a U.S system for their funding of Isreal's war machine, and the home of the 9/11 bombers, Saudi Arabia.You would have to complain via the United Nations and I assume no one would back your wish. If the U.S then ignored the UN, as usual, any action would recieve a reaction. Does the U.S really want to risk santions from the E.U? over a third of the world's GDP? Would the U.S want to risk having all its bases kicked out of Europe?So no, the U.S can't threaten France with such things. Jam Galileo and the U.S loses.