Author Topic: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 7, 2017 : DISCUSSION  (Read 246168 times)

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #100 on: 06/07/2017 04:43 pm »
The OTVs have a reputation of being hard to track from the ground; one of them was basically unseen for a year or more.
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Offline OnWithTheShow

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #101 on: 06/07/2017 04:46 pm »
Not happening.  It doesn't do them any good to buy and physically have the vehicles.  The Air Force could just used the next booster available.  It doesn't need to have them stored.  But that still is not going to happen.  There still is about 6 months of analytic integration required.  And there are no payloads that can react that quick either.

Would it still need 6 months if its a repeat payload? If there were a couple (or fleet) of X-37b wouldn't they be able to react quickly?

Offline Chris Bergin

Chris Gebhardt gives this big news a bit of a write up in the latest article:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/06/bulgariasat-launch-spacex-secures-x-37b-contract/
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Offline clongton

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #103 on: 06/07/2017 05:27 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong but a 'quick reaction launch on need' scenario such as the one Chuck describes would have had the analytics done years before. A standardised payload would be integrated onto an existing stack using a standardised interface. There would be the maximum effort to avoid deviations of mass, centre of gravity and the like.

And there are no payloads that can react that quick either.

Chuck wasn't claiming that there was such a payload. What he was saying is that the Falcon-9 allows for the USAF or NRO to develop such a payload with the assurance that there is a launch capability suitable for such a spacecraft and mission.

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Offline rockets4life97

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #104 on: 06/07/2017 05:33 pm »
This quote from the article confused me:

Quote from: Chris Gebhardt
Currently, it is understood that the mission will utilize a brand new booster – as most of the Block 5 upgrades understood to be specifically for U.S. Air Force missions are not included on previous booster variants.

This was seemingly confirmed by the U.S. Air Force Thursday evening, which issued a statement saying, “This mission will be the program’s first launch on a SpaceX Falcon 9 Upgrade launch vehicle.”

Is Chris G saying that Block V could debut in August for this flight? That seems unlikely to me. Block IV though looks likely since we've already seen the second stage.

Offline old_sellsword

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #105 on: 06/07/2017 05:41 pm »
This quote from the article confused me:

Quote from: Chris Gebhardt
Currently, it is understood that the mission will utilize a brand new booster – as most of the Block 5 upgrades understood to be specifically for U.S. Air Force missions are not included on previous booster variants.

This was seemingly confirmed by the U.S. Air Force Thursday evening, which issued a statement saying, “This mission will be the program’s first launch on a SpaceX Falcon 9 Upgrade launch vehicle.”

Is Chris G saying that Block V could debut in August for this flight? That seems unlikely to me. Block IV though looks likely since we've already seen the second stage.

There's no way this booster will get a Block 5 stage of any kind. It's barely going to get a full Block 4.

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #106 on: 06/07/2017 05:46 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong but a 'quick reaction launch on need' scenario such as the one Chuck describes would have had the analytics done years before. A standardised payload would be integrated onto an existing stack using a standardised interface. There would be the maximum effort to avoid deviations of mass, centre of gravity and the like.

And there are no payloads that can react that quick either.

Chuck wasn't claiming that there was such a payload. What he was saying is that the Falcon-9 allows for the USAF or NRO to develop such a payload with the assurance that there is a launch capability suitable for such a spacecraft and mission.

????
Nonsense.  Falcon 9 has not enable this.  This has been talked for decades. 
The standardized interfaces already exist, see EELV SIS. 
The reason it hasn't happened is because it is not launcher driven, it is payload driven.  The spacecraft projects choose to ask for additional services and analyses and not conform to a simple and repeatable integration process.

Offline AncientU

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #107 on: 06/07/2017 05:59 pm »
... Falcon 9 has not enable this.  This has been talked for decades
...

Just coincidence then.
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Offline ChrisGebhardt

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #108 on: 06/07/2017 06:41 pm »
This quote from the article confused me:

Quote from: Chris Gebhardt
Currently, it is understood that the mission will utilize a brand new booster – as most of the Block 5 upgrades understood to be specifically for U.S. Air Force missions are not included on previous booster variants.

This was seemingly confirmed by the U.S. Air Force Thursday evening, which issued a statement saying, “This mission will be the program’s first launch on a SpaceX Falcon 9 Upgrade launch vehicle.”

Is Chris G saying that Block V could debut in August for this flight? That seems unlikely to me. Block IV though looks likely since we've already seen the second stage.

There's no way this booster will get a Block 5 stage of any kind. It's barely going to get a full Block 4.

Isn't Block 5 the one that meets Air Force requirements?

Offline Star One

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #109 on: 06/07/2017 06:48 pm »
This quote from the article confused me:

Quote from: Chris Gebhardt
Currently, it is understood that the mission will utilize a brand new booster – as most of the Block 5 upgrades understood to be specifically for U.S. Air Force missions are not included on previous booster variants.

This was seemingly confirmed by the U.S. Air Force Thursday evening, which issued a statement saying, “This mission will be the program’s first launch on a SpaceX Falcon 9 Upgrade launch vehicle.”

Is Chris G saying that Block V could debut in August for this flight? That seems unlikely to me. Block IV though looks likely since we've already seen the second stage.

This breaking defense article also refers to it as Falcon 9 Upgrade.

Quote
The spaceplane will be boosted into space by a Falcon 9 Upgrade.

http://breakingdefense.com/2017/06/spacex-to-launch-x-37b-for-first-time-not-ulas-atlas-v/


Offline macpacheco

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #110 on: 06/07/2017 06:48 pm »
Isn't Block 5 the one that meets Air Force requirements?
Requirement or a strong request that eventually must be fulfilled for all launches ?
For example, NASA wants the turbine crack problem fixed, but they're not freezing CRS launches despite of that issue.
Just saying, I don't have any specific knowledge, my view just makes more sense than it being a hard requirement.
One big advantage SpaceX has against launch risks is they're launching all the time. Plus with a significant % of launched boosters being recovered, this allows SpaceX to show that even after the landing the turbines blade cracks are still within tolerances.
This shows that the problem isn't that serious, while at the same time a final solution is engineered and tested.
« Last Edit: 06/07/2017 06:49 pm by macpacheco »
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Offline old_sellsword

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #111 on: 06/07/2017 06:53 pm »
This quote from the article confused me:

Quote from: Chris Gebhardt
Currently, it is understood that the mission will utilize a brand new booster – as most of the Block 5 upgrades understood to be specifically for U.S. Air Force missions are not included on previous booster variants.

This was seemingly confirmed by the U.S. Air Force Thursday evening, which issued a statement saying, “This mission will be the program’s first launch on a SpaceX Falcon 9 Upgrade launch vehicle.”

Is Chris G saying that Block V could debut in August for this flight? That seems unlikely to me. Block IV though looks likely since we've already seen the second stage.

There's no way this booster will get a Block 5 stage of any kind. It's barely going to get a full Block 4.

Isn't Block 5 the one that meets Air Force requirements?

Yes, and NASA, from what we've heard. But what I'm saying is that if this flies in August, it won't be Block 5 because it won't be flying by then.

Offline DOCinCT

While the 11,000 lb weight of the X-37B suggests a RTLS, would that still hold once the weight of the fairing is factored in?

Offline envy887

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #113 on: 06/08/2017 12:09 am »
While the 11,000 lb weight of the X-37B suggests a RTLS, would that still hold once the weight of the fairing is factored in?

Yes, easily. Dragon is around twice that, and fairing mass trades at around 10:1 with payload mass.

F9 v1.2 performance data to ISS from NASA LSP is attached. This is for Block 1 or maybe Block 2, and a Block 4 launch will be somewhat higher. Payload is in KG, not LBM. X-37B typically launches to 300 km at 40 degrees, which is easier to reach than ISS.
« Last Edit: 06/08/2017 12:10 am by envy887 »

Offline Herb Schaltegger

Unlike NROL payloads, at this point there is no secret to the outer mold line of the X-37b, nor what it looks like, aside from whatever may be installed in the payload bay. It would be excellent PR for the Air Force to allow video coverage through payload separation in future missions ... Footage of a neat little spaceplane inserted into orbit from the nose of an American rocket seems to be just the kind of imagery America would eat up in this day and age.
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Offline Jcc

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #115 on: 06/08/2017 01:34 am »
Unlike NROL payloads, at this point there is no secret to the outer mold line of the X-37b, nor what it looks like, aside from whatever may be installed in the payload bay. It would be excellent PR for the Air Force to allow video coverage through payload separation in future missions ... Footage of a neat little spaceplane inserted into orbit from the nose of an American rocket seems to be just the kind of imagery America would eat up in this day and age.

That would be nice, but why didn't they do it for Atlas V launches?

Offline cppetrie

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #116 on: 06/08/2017 01:47 am »
Unlike NROL payloads, at this point there is no secret to the outer mold line of the X-37b, nor what it looks like, aside from whatever may be installed in the payload bay. It would be excellent PR for the Air Force to allow video coverage through payload separation in future missions ... Footage of a neat little spaceplane inserted into orbit from the nose of an American rocket seems to be just the kind of imagery America would eat up in this day and age.

That would be nice, but why didn't they do it for Atlas V launches?
ULA launch coverage seems to amount to animations after about 10km of altitude. They basically don't show launch video of anything regardless of the payload.

Edit: I have al kinds of respect for ULA and its parent companies (I have a cousin who works for LM) and what they have accomplished in space and with their launch vehicles. That said, their launch coverage is about as exciting and awe-inspiring as watch paint dry.
« Last Edit: 06/08/2017 01:50 am by cppetrie »

Offline cppetrie

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #117 on: 06/08/2017 01:57 am »
But ULA already has 3 launches booked for August, 2 at Canaveral and 1 at Vandenberg. If this was put out for very quick bid in May, than I think ULA would have been hard pressed to get this one added to August without bumping one of the other launches.

Why do you think this needs to fly in August?  Maybe that's just where it ended up on the SpaceX schedule when the contract was signed.
Because they said it would launch in August and it is June. At this point there is little reason to believe they would quote an original contract date from some time ago that would have slipped by now. If they said August today I think it's pretty reasonable to assume they fully intend on this going up in August based on today's current schedule and manifest.

The NROL-76 launch date didn't seem to slip after the AMOS-6 accident.  You're throwing together a whole bunch of assumptions.  You're making assumptions about what the mission requirements were, you're making assumptions about when it was bid, you're making assumptions about SpaceX schedule priority.

edit: trimmed quotes
Sorry. I misread your statement. You are correct that an August launch is probably not needed. I thought you were saying an August launch wasn't their intended date and wouldn't happen. My mistake.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #118 on: 06/08/2017 02:07 am »
Unlike NROL payloads, at this point there is no secret to the outer mold line of the X-37b, nor what it looks like, aside from whatever may be installed in the payload bay. It would be excellent PR for the Air Force to allow video coverage through payload separation in future missions ... Footage of a neat little spaceplane inserted into orbit from the nose of an American rocket seems to be just the kind of imagery America would eat up in this day and age.

That would be nice, but why didn't they do it for Atlas V launches?
ULA launch coverage seems to amount to animations after about 10km of altitude. They basically don't show launch video of anything regardless of the payload.

Edit: I have al kinds of respect for ULA and its parent companies (I have a cousin who works for LM) and what they have accomplished in space and with their launch vehicles. That said, their launch coverage is about as exciting and awe-inspiring as watch paint dry.
Could be worse, Arianespace show old video footage from other launches during live SRM and faring sep events...
« Last Edit: 06/08/2017 12:32 pm by Rocket Science »
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Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : X-37B OTV-5 : September 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #119 on: 06/08/2017 09:59 am »
Unlike NROL payloads, at this point there is no secret to the outer mold line of the X-37b, nor what it looks like, aside from whatever may be installed in the payload bay. It would be excellent PR for the Air Force to allow video coverage through payload separation in future missions ... Footage of a neat little spaceplane inserted into orbit from the nose of an American rocket seems to be just the kind of imagery America would eat up in this day and age.

That would be nice, but why didn't they do it for Atlas V launches?
ULA launch coverage seems to amount to animations after about 10km of altitude. They basically don't show launch video of anything regardless of the payload.

Edit: I have al kinds of respect for ULA and its parent companies (I have a cousin who works for LM) and what they have accomplished in space and with their launch vehicles. That said, their launch coverage is about as exciting and awe-inspiring as watch paint dry.

You don't watch enough of them, then. They have shown video of spacecraft separation in the past.

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