Author Topic: "Direct" Alternative  (Read 95325 times)

Offline Zachstar

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RE: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #120 on: 09/24/2006 06:44 pm »
Hello people!

We just had an amazing demo by SimC! Using his livepics page and TeamTalk in order to tell us about the stuff. Lots of interesting facts and issue notes were talked about during the flight. And the fact that he used STS sounds to help build the experience was amazing!

Also he gave us a great tour of all his "toys" Amazing stuff he has!

The next time he plans a live demo I do hope you will join us in the TeamTalk server! Till then good luck!

Image of "Direct's" launch attached.

Offline rumble

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Re: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #121 on: 09/24/2006 07:18 pm »
Rats!  I missed it.  Is it difficult to do a video capture of a demo?  That would be super cool...  Doesn't need to be produced or narrated or anything.  Just video/audio capture of a demo running...

Offline Zachstar

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RE: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #122 on: 09/24/2006 08:11 pm »
SimC was talking about making a video of it so I guess no worries.

But in the future I still prefer the Live Demos with TeamTalk.

Offline kraisee

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RE: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #123 on: 09/25/2006 09:00 pm »
Quote
Zachstar - 23/9/2006  11:53 PM

---Where are you kraisee?---

I have not seen you post in this topic in a dogs age! Any updates of your developments of this great idea?

Also: Will we see you during the live demo of the add-on?

I was away for my birthday vacation with my better half.   I'm back now and fascinated to hear more about António's demo.

I'm going to be doing a lot of work over the next few days catching up with stuff for my company, but I'll also be updating the Direct info gradually at the same time.   So watch for updates.


*** António:   The EDS for Direct is not the same as the EDS used on the ESAS CaLV.

The calculations I've posted so far (94.4mT to LEO + EDS) assumes the same ESAS EDS is used, just with a single J-2 (and associated plumbing & t. structure removed also, reducing the overall mass by ~3,000Kg (~6,600lb)).   But on "Direct", the EDS phase of the ascent requires only 76,839Kg (169,402lb) of propellant to reach its 100x160nm initial orbit, compared to 120,061Kg (264,690lb) used during a CaLV flight to reach just 30x100nm.

This means smaller tanks will be required than the ESAS specification. Combined with a reduction to just one J-2 engine, reduces the dry mass considerably.   All my figures continue to assume 19mT for the dry mass, although I believe that could drop further to ~16-17mT.   This difference would translate 1:1 as an increase in final payload capacity above 94.4mT :)

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline kraisee

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RE: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #124 on: 09/27/2006 11:53 pm »
I see by António's LivePic, that he's been up to some more on Direct in the last few days :)

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

Offline Zachstar

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RE: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #125 on: 09/29/2006 06:22 am »
Actually that was a pic from some test flight after the live demo ended. That was last sunday.

But it is friday so hopefully we get to see some magic soon!

Offline simcosmos

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RE: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #126 on: 09/29/2006 09:07 am »
Yep, you are correct Zach: the image currently loaded in the LivePics page - 20060924 timestamp, will soon move it to the flickr photo set - was from last weekend. I usually run a quick and extra Orbiter session, in the very end, just to upload a final beauty screenshot.

For this weekend will try to complete the goals left behind: launch pad and Direct variant with EDS alpha implementations and files / directory / documentation cleaning operations, all vital to start preparing a first public version or, at least, some private demo(s).

Will also try to produce a demo video but, if having to choose, will prefer to spend time with the 3D / Image editor and configuration files: the video will then look much better.


Talking about configurations and tweaks: Ross, I have a few comments / questions. Perhaps it would be nice if we could arrange one of those MSN meetings during this weekend to talk about stuff related with ascent trajectory options and also about some specific mass numbers (will need a more detailed sub-division of allocated mass for a few of the launcher components).


Moving on: next LivePics image should either show my first interpretation of the Direct EDS or, before that, perhaps will show the utilization of Direct's 3D and texture upgrades being used to produce a basic variant of an *ESAS CaLV* (that will be used on my other NASA VSE SC addon).

Regarding a LiveTest for this weekend: it will depend on how things go. Like mentioned above, if having to choose, I prefer to hold a bit the *public relations* updates (images / video, etc) and concentrate in some delayed stuff (for Direct and for other virtual projects).

And I think it is all for now, work in progress,

António
my pics @ flickr

Offline Zachstar

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RE: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #127 on: 10/01/2006 07:24 am »
Justed checked the Flickr page! It's a Mars-OZ party!! Nice work!!

----------------------

On a side note I noticed you are working on the ESAS VSE style Cargo Launcher Ares V. I am curious if you might allow Francisdrake to use it in order to improve his CEV addon? I surely hope so.

He had indicated to me in an email last july that he may return to addon dev in the fall. This will be supremely aided if you may be willing to provide mesh sources for the Ares V. Matter of fact it will make things tons easier by just open sourcing your meshes under the Artistic License. I have uploaded a TXT version of it for easy inclusion in any zip on my webspace.  http://test.virtualunitedairlines.net/Ref/OSIArtisticLicense.txt

I understand that you will likely also want to make a version in multistage. A version in Multistage will be fine until Franz returns. However frankly a DLL can normally outperform a Multistage version. Will hope you will consider the open source path.

---------------------

Now back to direct. Will be maybe be able to see a livepic of the smaller EDS today? Or will that kind of stuff have to wait till next weekend? I guess it matters little when im drooling over all this Mars OZ stuff.   ;)

THANKS! for the continued efforts!!

Offline kraisee

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RE: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #128 on: 10/01/2006 05:21 pm »
I haven't had any chance to log on this weekend until now.   Even then, I've only got about an hour.

Let me know what you're after António, either here or by e-mail.   I have attached a lot of the info here.


Direct:
=======

Booster Stage:
==============               
                  
Standard 4-segment Reusable SRB:                  
Number of SRB's:      2.00               
Isp (SL):         237.00      sec      
Isp (vac):         268.00      sec         
Average Thrust (each):      1,086,353.73   kg   2,395,000.00   lb   10,657,130.06   N
Maximum Thrust (each):      1,511,097.62   kg   3,331,400.00   lb   14,823,867.68   N
                  
Max Action Time:      123.70   sec            

Total Average Thrust:      2,172,707.45   kg   4,790,000.00   lb   21,314,260.12   N
Total Maximum Thrust:      3,022,195.25   kg   6,662,800.00   lb   29,647,735.36   N
Total Propellant Mass:      1,002,934.46   kg   2,211,092.00   lb      
Total Burnout Mass:      175,208.22   kg   386,268.00   lb      
                  
Total Stage GLOW:      1,178,142.68   kg   2,597,360.00   lb      


Main Stage Configuration:
=========================                  
                  
Number of Required Engines:   2.00               
Number of Redundant Engines:   0.00               
Total Number of Engines:   2.00               
Mission Power Level:      100.00      %            
                  
RS-68 Regen (est):                  
Isp (SL):         383.25               
Isp (vac):         441.00               
Average Thrust @ 100% (each):   309,576.79   kg   682,500.00   lb   3,036,948.34   N
Maximum Thrust @ 100% (each):   354,697.35   kg   781,973.80   lb   3,479,581.00   N
Engine Mass:         7,260.00   kg   16,005.56   lb      
                  
Total Engine Mass:      14,520.00   kg   32,011.12   lb
Support Systems Mass:      3,258.81   kg   7,184.45   lb
Total MPS Mass:         17,778.81   kg   39,195.57   lb

Primary Body Structure Mass:   33,626.98   kg   74,134.80   lb   
Secondary Structures Mass:   1,237.44   kg   2,728.08   lb   
Total Structure Mass:      34,864.42   kg   76,862.88   lb      
                  
Separation Systems:      1,273.03   kg   2,806.56   lb   
TPS:            187.46      kg   413.28      lb
TCS:            1,754.75   kg   3,868.56   lb   
Power (Electrical):      954.29      kg   2,103.84   lb   
Power (Hydraulic):      589.16      kg   1,298.88   lb   
Avionics:         303.91      kg   670.00      lb      
Miscellaneous:         259.91      kg   573.00      lb      
Ancillary Systems Mass:      5,322.51   kg   11,734.12   lb      
                  
Total Dry Mass Without Growth:   57,965.73   kg   127,792.57   lb      
                  
Dry Mass Growth Allowance:   4,707.31   kg   10,377.84   lb   
                  
Total Dry Mass With Growth:   62,673.04   kg   138,170.40   lb      
                  
Residuals Mass:         5,975.64   kg   13,174.04   lb   
eserves Mass:         1,190.76   kg   2,625.17   lb   
In Flight Losses Mass:      93.88      kg   206.98      lb
Total Surplus Propellant Mass:   7,260.29   kg   16,006.19   lb      
                  
BURNOUT MASS:         69,933.33   kg   154,176.59   lb      
                  
Main Ascent Propellant Mass:   793,856.57   kg   1,750,154.15   lb   
Engine Purge Helium Mass:   89.94      kg   198.29      lb
                  
TOTAL STAGE GLOW:      863,879.84   kg   1,904,529.03   lb

Total Average Thrust:      619,153.59   kg   1,365,000.00   lb   6,073,896.67   N
Total Maximum Thrust:      709,394.70   kg   1,563,947.60   lb   6,959,162.01   N

Action Time:         495.00      sec


Upper Stage Configuration (Optional Stage):
===========================================            
                  
Number of Required Engines:   1.00               
Number of Redundant Engines:   0.00               
Total Number of Engines:   1.00               
                  
J-2X (May 2006 spec, NOT the expected 294K lb thrust variant):                  
Isp (SL):         345      sec            
Isp (vac):         448      sec            
Average Thrust @ 100% (each):   116,119.65   kg   256,000.00   lb   1,139,133.74   N
Maximum Thrust @ 100% (each):   132,902.56   kg   273,500.00   lb   1,303,774.16   N
Mission Power Level:      100.00      %            

Total Engine Mass:      1,400.00   kg   3,086.47   lb
Support Systems Mass:      2,934.32   kg   6,469.06   lb
Total MPS Mass:         4,334.32   kg   9,555.53   lb
            
Primary Body Structure Mass:   5,687.54   kg   12,538.88   lb
Secondary Structures Mass:   707.17      kg   1,559.04   lb
Total Structure Mass:      6,394.71   kg   14,097.92   lb
            
Separation Systems:      90.26      kg   199.00      lb
TPS:            143.79      kg   317.00      lb
TCS:            672.22      kg   1,482.00   lb
Power (Electrical):      640.93      kg   1,413.00   lb
Power (Hydraulic):      183.25      kg   404.00      lb
Avionics:         195.04      kg   430.00      lb
Miscellaneous:         59.42      kg   131.00      lb
Total Ancillary Systems Mass:   1,984.92   kg   4,376.00   lb
            
Total Dry Mass Without Growth:   12,713.95   kg   28,029.45   lb
            
Dry Mass Growth Allowance:   1,632.48   kg   3,599.00   lb
            
Total Dry Mass With Growth:   14,346.42   kg   31,628.45   lb
            
Residuals Mass:         2,407.90   kg   5,308.50   lb
Reserves Mass:         284.63      kg   627.50      lb
In Flight Losses Mass:      26.76      kg   59.00      lb
Total Propellant Mass:      2,719.29   kg   5,995.00   lb
            
BURNOUT MASS:         17,065.71   kg   37,623.45   lb
            
Main Ascent Propellant Mass:   76,839.27   kg   169,401.60   lb
Engine Purge Helium Mass:   23.59      kg   52.00      lb
            
TOTAL STAGE GLOW:      93,928.57   kg   207,077.05   lb

Prop. Used during Launch Phase:   76,839.27   kg   169,401.60   lb
            
Action Time:         259.00      sec      
            

Payload Configuration without EDS:
==================================

To 100x160nm 28.5deg Orbit:

Payload Shroud:         4,772.70   kg   10,522.00   lb
Payload:         75,628.17   kg   166,731.57   lb


Payload Configuration with EDS:
===============================

To 100x160nm 28.5deg Orbit:

Payload Shroud:         4,772.70   kg   10,522.00   lb
Payload:         94,428.34   kg   208,178.86   lb



Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline kraisee

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RE: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #129 on: 10/01/2006 06:01 pm »
And here are some diagrams of the trajectory for the Direct without EDS:
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline kraisee

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RE: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #130 on: 10/05/2006 08:12 pm »
Been busy this week, but I'm back now.   Am working to update the budget, pad design and optimising the payloads further over the comming days.   Looks like performance numbers are actually going to climb slightly more :)

Ross.
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Offline simcosmos

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RE: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #131 on: 10/06/2006 09:54 am »
And we are in that moment of the week that is best for me to give a few answers / extra updates

Quote
Zachstar - 1/10/2006  8:07 AM

Justed checked the Flickr page! It's a Mars-OZ party!! Nice work!!


Thanks: yes, should have more Mars-Oz previews in the next weeks.


Quote
Zachstar - 1/10/2006  8:07 AM

On a side note I noticed you are working on the ESAS VSE style Cargo Launcher Ares V. I am curious if you might allow Francisdrake to use it in order to improve his CEV addon? I surely hope so.

He had indicated to me in an email last july that he may return to addon dev in the fall. This will be supremely aided if you may be willing to provide mesh sources for the Ares V. Matter of fact it will make things tons easier by just open sourcing your meshes under the Artistic License. I have uploaded a TXT version of it for easy inclusion in any zip on my webspace.  http://test.virtualunitedairlines.net/Ref/OSIArtisticLicense.txt

I understand that you will likely also want to make a version in multistage. A version in Multistage will be fine until Franz returns. However frankly a DLL can normally outperform a Multistage version. Will hope you will consider the open source path.

Will not go open source regarding my models because of a number of reasons. However this does not mean that I do not accept c++ contributes or that I do not provide my models for specific projects as long as things are properly talked about (and yes, I already thought in the past about providing my launchers to Francisdrake's specific ESAS addon but we never really discussed that, maybe in a later moment).


Quote
Zachstar - 1/10/2006  8:07 AM
Now back to direct. Will be maybe be able to see a livepic of the smaller EDS today? Or will that kind of stuff have to wait till next weekend? I guess it matters little when im drooling over all this Mars OZ stuff.   ;)

Hummm, a little late answer but here it goes anyway: I have the old ESAS EDS on the top of Direct launcher but still haven't 100% produced / integrated the version for Direct.

Meanwhile I decided to focus in the launch pad + MLP implementation: these are still early alphas (3D and textures not quite ready) that I imported yesterday because was really getting tired about launching Direct from Orbiter's default pads :)

Direct's pad / MLP design will be tweaked in a later moment but, for now, their import also served three important goals:

  • to prepare the directory structure and all required files for Direct's custom Solar System definition


  • to properly place the pads (+ fixed tower) in the right spots; same for the MLP and support tower (MLP defined with a separated and very simple cfg so that it can be easily removed from the scenario)


  • perhaps the preparation of a clumsy demo video, anxiously expected by some fellow readers ;)



Related with Direct eye-candy: Orbiter had a new patch and I have been playing with attachment points, the new Atlantis, multistage2.dll and payload definitions via scenario (with Atlantis being fully functional during launch with multistage automatic guidance and cool SRB smoke). McWgogs also kindly gave me permission to use his textures or derived work in my projects. This to say that a few of that eye-candy work that I have been doing with STS will be also used with Direct.


Ross: just sent a new email in your way, thanks again for the info (will prepare pics during the afternoon)


António

PS: not sure if there will be a LiveTest this weekend. I will probably meet online with Ross to talk about several details. Maybe we can prepare another funny live event, do not know(?) Work in progress...

my pics @ flickr

Offline kraisee

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Re: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #132 on: 10/06/2006 09:26 pm »
Posted these over in the other thread.   Thought I should link them here too :)

http://65.33.118.71/Public/Direct/NASA_DirectSDLV_DEVWIP20061006simcosmos_00.jpg">

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline kraisee

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RE: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #133 on: 10/09/2006 07:01 am »
For anyone interested, I just worked out the logical growth option for DIRECT...

What happens if you upgrade it to 5-segs?

Optimizing the design, you also need to Barrel Stretch the core by 31%, and the best performance came from adding a third RS-68 Regen.

Basic CLV performance climbed to 94.5mT to 60x160nm 28.5deg, and with an optimized EDS (32.8% increased capacity, 3mT heavier tanking), the performance climbs to higher than Ares-V's:   137.5mT to 60x160nm.

And none of that costs more than Ares-I and Ares-V together, just removes the near-term costs, and keeps annual fixed costs to a single LV program instead of two.   Saves about $1Bn per year...

R.
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Offline rumble

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Re: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #134 on: 10/09/2006 01:07 pm »
What do max g-forces grow to without EDS?

Designs will need to be careful to avoid/minimize pogo in that center RS-68.  Ares V will have the same issue to engineer around.

Offline kraisee

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Re: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #135 on: 10/09/2006 02:23 pm »
Quote
rumble - 9/10/2006  8:50 AM

What do max g-forces grow to without EDS?

Designs will need to be careful to avoid/minimize pogo in that center RS-68.  Ares V will have the same issue to engineer around.

Rumble, below are the full trajectory graphs for this "Growth Option" DIRECT CLV.   As you'll see, it's a 4g max profile.   Max-q dynamic pressure climbes to 28825 pascals, which is 602lb/ft2 without throttling the mains at all.

This all still needs to be run through something like POST to officially confirm the findings of course...

And yes, pogo-suppression hardware is potentially required.   I've already been toying with the idea of sacrificing about 9mT of capacity in a trade for a fourth RS-68R with all it's associated plumbing.   That would offer 100% engine-out capacity from T-0 to MECO and locate all the engines away from the centerline.   It's just one of many potential solutions if the design has any issues like that.

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline kraisee

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RE: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #136 on: 10/09/2006 07:26 pm »
António has expertly prepared his first 5 minute video demonstrating the DIRECT CLV's launch.

It's 11.4Mb in size, and hosted on a fairly slow server, so please be patient.

I think it looks wonderful, but I'm most definately biased ;)

Enjoy!

Primary Site: http://65.33.118.71/Public/Direct/NASA_DirectSDLV_20061008wip_simcosmos.WMV

Mirror Site: http://simcosmos.planetaclix.pt/temp/NASA_DirectSDLV_20061008wip_simcosmos.WMV

Spec is a basic 25mT Orion CEV flight to ISS, with a 45mT mass simulator 'disc' inside the SLA, which never detatches from the Core stage (you can see it after CEV sep).

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline simcosmos

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Re: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #137 on: 10/09/2006 09:34 pm »
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
!EDIT: Mirror of Direct's demo / wip video (October2006) moved to:
http://simcosmos.planetaclix.pt/temp/Direct/NASA_DirectSDLV_20061008wip_simcosmos.WMV

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My pleasure Ross ;)

Just a small note to all downloading and having a look at the video:

Fellow nasaspaceflight reader,

Please do not pay too much attention to the details. Despite the video had some evident production care when regarding the capture and editing of the sequences + sound this is a demo of the work in progress (read: weekends progress). This to say that people should look at this as when looking at the development pictures posted in my flickr space or LivePics.

Being more specific, any less correct stuff going on in this demo video is probably caused by one of the following 3 reasons:

  • still very early addon implementation and lots of tweaks / tests / other stuff to do

  • some limitations of what can be done also exist (these can be removed with extra time, updated tools and/or new collaborators)

  • my PC is starting to get old (PIIIat600Mhz, 384SDRAM, GeForceFX5200 is not exactly the best configuration for things such as to record video of development files without messing up with things like the automatic guidance, etc)



This little remark done, I hope people have fun with the video: the interested will be able to have this toy at home and   "play" with it.. one day :)

Despite what I wrote above, feel free to make any comment / suggestion / question, if you wish

Thanks,
António

PS: please, just do not ask for release dates or I will be forced to answer "Whenever is ready" or, the also famous in some circles, "On Tuesday" (and then you will have to keep an eye on every Tuesdays of the year).
my pics @ flickr

Offline Mark Dave

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Re: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #138 on: 10/10/2006 07:07 pm »
I found this comparison pic, even though it's for scale modelling, it may as well fit in here http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/models/vault2006/Ares1%20and%20V%20Dimensions%20at%20144%20scale.jpg

I just got a book with bonus dvd called Saturn by Apogee books that explains alot on the Saturn V. I was wondering why not use similar engines for the core of Ares V? The F-1?

Offline Jim

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Re: "Direct" Alternative
« Reply #139 on: 10/10/2006 07:11 pm »
They don't exist anymore

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