Author Topic: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket  (Read 110125 times)

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #140 on: 06/05/2016 05:00 pm »
Orbital planning new rocket to compete for U.S. military launches
Quote from: Irene Klotz
The company plans to buy the rocket's second stage from Jeff Bezos' space company, Blue Origin.
Irene simply got that wrong.  Other reports from the same Space Congress presentation, including the photo of the presentation slides upthread, showed it to be the third stage.

Should have been "buy the US from BO". Yup.

Note - not "buy engine". Which makes sense, because ATK's abilities to do a fast turn on the solids, along with BO's existing hydrolox engine and stage combined with the need for a US for "big brother".

And I believe that OA is doing the nozzle extension for this BO stage. So likely BO's US will fly first on a OA "PPH" (per Ariane 6 earlier design nomenclature), gain flight history, as BE4 flies first on Vulcan, and then "big brother" flies after New Shepard's suborbital business debut. Economic production sharing to two vehicles for BO stage/engine.

Still an open question ULA's ACES choice.

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #141 on: 06/07/2016 11:13 pm »
For Antares OATK buys both the engine and the tank. (Russian engines, Ukrainian tank)
So buying a whole stage from BlueOrigin is not so different then the current practice of Orbital ATK.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #142 on: 06/07/2016 11:39 pm »
They buy derivative Zenit stages/tanks as an overseas outsource provider because of lower labor costs and experience with Russian engine LV's.

BO is not such. OA has limited experience with LREs and their stages. But will need to gain operations with hydrolox, which isn't risk free. Proving a hydrolox US is much harder than a ground start booster for BO, and must be a significant part of the trade.

So the deal with BO is more like ULA's deal with BO - ULA/OA goes first in proving BE4/US flight on their dime with a BO flight system, then BO pulls that back into its LV.

Not the same for Antares booster. Totally different risk/reward.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #143 on: 06/08/2016 03:38 am »
OA maybe getting good price from Blue to fly an unproven stage. Blue will most likely provide ground crew for launch processing and launch.
Blue may end up flying their LV first, as both companies are talking about 2019-2020  maiden launches for their new LVs.

Offline Sam Ho

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #144 on: 08/11/2016 12:41 am »
The big news in the OA conference call this quarter was the $400M accounting error on the US Army ammo contract, but there was some space news.  The ELV schedule is pretty much the same as last quarter.
Quote
In the Flight Systems Group, the Company and the Air Force continued to work in the first phase of what might develop as a four-year long joint development program aimed at fielding a new intermediate and large-class launch vehicle. Our investments this year, which are being strongly supplemented by the Air Force, are focused on the initial design and early development work. And in the second quarter, we complete the vehicle’s core preliminary design review in June. A joint Air Force and Orbital ATK decision about moving the program into full development is expected in mid-2017, based on our progress between now and then, and a variety of other factors.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #145 on: 08/17/2016 05:39 pm »

The latest
Orbital-ATK's EELV-class NGL Family was discussed briefly during the August 10 Investor Relations Earnings Conference Call. A go/no go decision to proceed target timeline was set for Mid-2017 (Narrowed down to May through July 2017 timeframe) (See second PDF for Reference) .

In other related news that also applies to ULA Atlas and Vulcan and recently LM Athena 2cS launcher families: Completed GEM 63 Solid Rocket Motor Family Preliminary Design Review (see first PDF for reference).

Webcast Link: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?p=irol-eventDetails&c=81036&eventID=5235190
« Last Edit: 08/17/2016 06:03 pm by Chris Bergin »

Offline Skyrocket

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #146 on: 08/17/2016 09:01 pm »

In other related news that also applies to ULA Atlas and Vulcan and recently LM Athena 2cS launcher families: Completed GEM 63 Solid Rocket Motor Family Preliminary Design Review (see first PDF for reference).

Webcast Link: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?p=irol-eventDetails&c=81036&eventID=5235190

Has the Athena-2cS  design switched from Orion-50SXLG to GEM-63 strap-ons?
« Last Edit: 08/17/2016 09:01 pm by Skyrocket »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #147 on: 08/17/2016 09:08 pm »

In other related news that also applies to ULA Atlas and Vulcan and recently LM Athena 2cS launcher families: Completed GEM 63 Solid Rocket Motor Family Preliminary Design Review (see first PDF for reference).

Webcast Link: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?p=irol-eventDetails&c=81036&eventID=5235190

Has the Athena-2cS  design switched from Orion-50SXLG to GEM-63 strap-ons?
They have not selected it. They are studying it as an option. As a prospective customer it was given the opportunity to participate in the PDR.
« Last Edit: 08/17/2016 09:19 pm by russianhalo117 »

Offline spacenut

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #148 on: 08/26/2016 03:46 pm »
With these solids, would it be possible to parachute them back down for reuse?  Or is refurbishment of these smaller stages still about break even in cost?

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #149 on: 08/26/2016 05:28 pm »
With these solids, would it be possible to parachute them back down for reuse?  Or is refurbishment of these smaller stages still about break even in cost?

Composite solids of any type are currently capable of single use. major technological and material science advancements would be needed to reuse solid motors. those with Steel casings are the only ones that are capable of reuse but US industry is working quickly to phase those out to cut costs and increase profits.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #150 on: 08/29/2016 08:35 pm »
The whole point of a modern composite solid fueled rocket is to be the epitome of expendable vehicles.

When you reuse them, you weaken the argument for such.

Offline spacenut

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #151 on: 08/29/2016 09:00 pm »
What if you had a steel liner like an old Volkswagon engine.  (Steel liners in an aluminum block).   Might add a little weight, but wouldn't be burned with the steel liners. 

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #152 on: 08/29/2016 09:43 pm »
Your cost triples, your GTOW rises another 3/4, your payload to orbit is a third. And on inspection you might have a burn thru and no reuse. And likely you can't launch NSS payloads.

Other than that, good.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #153 on: 08/31/2016 06:45 pm »
What if you had a steel liner like an old Volkswagon engine.  (Steel liners in an aluminum block).   Might add a little weight, but wouldn't be burned with the steel liners.

The problem isn't the material so much, it's the geometry. Monolithic composite cases are "wrapped" over a mandrel covered with a layer of insulation, and the insulation bonds to the composite overwrap, then the mandrel is removed and the propellant grain is cast inside, through the hole left in the aft end of the case for the nozzle attachment.

After the SRM is fired, you're left with a one-piece case with a lot of charred insulation inside, and there's no way to get the charred insulation out and new insulation inside because you can't take the case apart, and you have only limited access to the inside of the case through the hole in the aft end.

Then if you try to make the case segmented, you end up losing the weight advantage of composites. So you're stuck with a single-use composite case.
« Last Edit: 08/31/2016 07:38 pm by Kabloona »

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #154 on: 09/02/2016 01:48 pm »
I expect the September 1 Falcon 9/AMOS 6 explosion to influence Orbital ATK's decision about whether to proceed with its new rocket. 

 - Ed Kyle

Offline ZachS09

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #155 on: 09/02/2016 02:07 pm »
I expect the September 1 Falcon 9/AMOS 6 explosion to influence Orbital ATK's decision about whether to proceed with its new rocket. 

 - Ed Kyle

Why would the AMOS 6 pre-static fire failure have anything to do with Orbital ATK's newest launch vehicle?
Liftoff for St. Jude's! Go Dragon, Go Falcon, Godspeed Inspiration4!

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #156 on: 09/02/2016 02:26 pm »
Why would the AMOS 6 pre-static fire failure have anything to do with Orbital ATK's newest launch vehicle?
As I see it, the AMOS 6 failure shifts the playing field.  It increases SpaceX costs.  It increases insurance costs for satellite owners.  It delays Falcon Heavy.  It raises reliability questions about the entire Falcon family design.  Orbital ATK's NGL is aimed at the same market as Falcon 9/Falcon Heavy and Vulcan, another rocket that will have to go through growing pains.  Orbital ATK's decision makers, who will soon decide whether to proceed, have a different set of considerations now than they did last week.

 - Ed Kyle 
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 02:30 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #157 on: 09/03/2016 06:17 am »
As I see it, the AMOS 6 failure shifts the playing field.  It increases SpaceX costs.  It increases insurance costs for satellite owners.  It delays Falcon Heavy.  It raises reliability questions about the entire Falcon family design.  Orbital ATK's NGL is aimed at the same market as Falcon 9/Falcon Heavy and Vulcan, another rocket that will have to go through growing pains.  Orbital ATK's decision makers, who will soon decide whether to proceed, have a different set of considerations now than they did last week.

 - Ed Kyle 
Spacex most likely will have returned to normal operations and gotten Falcon Heavy flying long before NGL is ready.

The only way I can see Orbital ATK catching up is if they keep the first stage closely derived from a SLS booster and the second stage was derived from something existing or close to finished.
« Last Edit: 09/07/2016 05:42 pm by Patchouli »

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #158 on: 09/03/2016 09:45 pm »
Orbital ATK's NGL is aimed at the same market as Falcon 9/Falcon Heavy and Vulcan, another rocket that will have to go through growing pains.
You mean ... like ... Antares? When exactly is return to flight?

The only way I can see Orbital ATK catching up is if they keep the first stage as closely derived from a SLS booster ...
Then they'd have to explain ... why SLS boosters were so expensive, while convincing that NGL boosters could be so cheap to be competitive.

In either case, the pivotal issue for NGL/Vulcan is the split of NSS launches among 2-3 providers and enough fill in at market commercial launches to sustain vehicle costing over 10 years.

The true issue is two losses in less than a year. If they roll into being the same issue for both, SX's credibility for launch will take a major hit.


Offline edkyle99

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Re: Proposed Orbital ATK Solid Rocket
« Reply #159 on: 09/03/2016 10:03 pm »
Orbital ATK's NGL is aimed at the same market as Falcon 9/Falcon Heavy and Vulcan, another rocket that will have to go through growing pains.
You mean ... like ... Antares? When exactly is return to flight?
Antares will likely fly before the next Falcon 9.  But yes, like Antares.  These big new U.S. liquid rockets seem to have a habit of cantankerousness and explosions, which is why the U.S. needs alternatives.  Solid propellant is the most disparate back-up possible to pressurized, turbopump-fed liquids.

 - Ed Kyle 

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