Author Topic: Ariane 6 Discussion Thread: Place Your Ariane 6 Discussions Here  (Read 769193 times)

Offline GWR64

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1444
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1219
  • Likes Given: 779
Cross posting
Quote
ArianeGroup
@ArianeGroup
·
4. Jan.
RaketeThe #Ariane6 core stage and upper stage intended for the combined tests on the launch pad in French Guiana have left the #ArianeGroup sites in Les Mureaux and Bremen and begun their journey to Europe’s Spaceport.
https://twitter.com/ArianeGroup/status/1478302944231665664

Quote
@AfifRocketMario
·
4. Jan.
When will those 2 arrive at the spaceport?
https://twitter.com/AfifRocketMario/status/1478303744282357760
Quote
Paul Montagne
@AstroPolo_Space
...
Mid-January. Beginning of combined tests (Launcher+Pad) in April
https://twitter.com/AstroPolo_Space/status/1478442106523987973

I have seen in previous schedules that around 6 months were allowed for these combined tests.
Is that right?

Offline GWR64

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1444
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1219
  • Likes Given: 779
same thoughts:
Quote
Peter B. de Selding
@pbdes
.#Ariane6 stages en route to @ESA @CNES  spaceport for
months-long tests starting April. Parallel test-firing
w/ upper stage at @DLR_de site under way. Keeping
late-2022 inaugural flight date is now in doubt.

https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/1479084957222019077

Apart from the CSO-3 launch, I wonder what will become with Galaxy-37.
The satellite is scheduled to launch on an Ariane 64.
It must be in service by December 5, 2023. Otherwise Intelsat violates the deadline for the C-band cleaning.
An Ariane-64 will probably take off in mid-2023 at the earliest.
« Last Edit: 01/06/2022 09:10 pm by GWR64 »

Offline Zed_Noir

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1321
  • Likes Given: 1146
<snip>
Apart from the CSO-3 launch, I wonder what will become with Galaxy-37.
The satellite is scheduled to launch on an Ariane 64.
It must be in service by December 5, 2023. Otherwise Intelsat violates the deadline for the C-band cleaning.
An Ariane-64 will probably take off in mid-2023 at the earliest.


Intelsat can move Galaxy-37 to the other possible launch provider if the Ariane 6 program gets delay or to be sure of start of service by Dec 5th 2023. Alternatively Intelsat can get a deadline extension.

Offline GWR64

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1444
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1219
  • Likes Given: 779
Quote
the other possible launch provider

= SpaceX ?
Or is ILS also an "possible launch provider". What do the current rules and ITAR regulations say?

Offline russianhalo117

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8096
  • Liked: 3909
  • Likes Given: 750
Quote
the other possible launch provider

= SpaceX ?
Or is ILS also an "possible launch provider". What do the current rules and ITAR regulations say?
ILS and MHLS are the alternate launch providers. Payloads have been transferred to ILS in the past. I do not know if the entire alliance pact is still in good standing. GKLS has taken over control of ILS but gas not yet consolidated the organisation structure and functions of the Russian side as has already occurred with Starsem and S7 Space Transport Systems LLC (S7 Space for short (S7 Sea Launch Limited in the USA)).

Current state of ILS: https://www.ilslaunch.com/
« Last Edit: 01/06/2022 11:51 pm by russianhalo117 »

Online Steven Pietrobon

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32518
  • Adelaide, Australia
    • Steven Pietrobon's Space Archive
  • Liked: 21124
  • Likes Given: 3641
Unless Intelsat already has a launch license, they won't be launching with ILS. The deadline for license applications was 1 September 2021. After that date, no satellites with US components can launch on Russian rockets.

https://www.akingump.com/en/news-insights/licenses-for-exports-to-russia-related-to-commercial-space-launches-must-be-granted-by-september-1-2021.html
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Hobbes-22

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 849
  • Acme Engineering
    • Acme Engineering
  • Liked: 478
  • Likes Given: 406
Arianespace has released photos of the first test articles arriving in Kourou.


I was rather surprised to see an ULPM with an aft skirt attached. On the Ariane 5 this skirt on the second stage is one of the reasons for its mediocre performance (dead weight), and I thought they were going to fix that for Ariane 6. Are we looking at the separation plane that will be used in flight, or will the aft skirt stay attached to the first stage?



« Last Edit: 01/27/2022 07:19 pm by Hobbes-22 »

Offline GWR64

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1444
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1219
  • Likes Given: 779
High resolution image of the Vinci engine on the Combined Test Model (CTM).
As far as I understand, this engine will not fired.
That is the task of the Hot Firing Model (HFM) in Lampoldshausen.
Is the CTM Vinci a fully functional engine and what happens to it after the combined tests?
For the CTM's Vulcain 2 engine is a static fire test planned.


Quote
Ariane 6 upper stage at Europe's Spaceport
21/01/2022

The central core of ESA’s new generation Ariane 6 launch vehicle arrived by boat in French Guiana from Europe on 18 January 2022. This enables combined tests at Europe’s Spaceport where Ariane 6 parts will come together on the launch pad for the first time.

Ariane 6’s central core comprises a lower stage and upper stage. The lower stage is from ArianeGroup’s Les Mureaux site in France; the upper stage is from ArianeGroup’s Bremen factory in Germany.

Upon arrival by boat at Pariacabo harbour, two containers were transported by road to the new Ariane 6 launch vehicle assembly building – part of the Ariane 6 launch complex at Europe’s Spaceport. Here, the rocket stages were unpacked and installed on the assembly line machinery for integration, to form the Ariane 6 central core. After this, they will be used in ‘combined’ tests which will verify all the interfaces and functions between the Ariane 6 launch vehicle and ground facilities at the spaceport.

From arrival to hot-firing tests on the launch pad, operational procedures will follow as closely as possible those for any Ariane 6 launch campaign.

Text and image source ESA:
https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Images/2022/01/Ariane_6_upper_stage_at_Europe_s_Spaceport2

Offline russianhalo117

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8096
  • Liked: 3909
  • Likes Given: 750
Arianespace =https://www.ariane.group/en/news/ariane-6-is-getting-into-shape-for-combined-tests-with-the-launch-pad/?utm_campaign=newsletter&utm_source=en_US has released photos of the first test articles arriving in Kourou.


I was rather surprised to see an ULPM with an aft skirt attached. On the Ariane 5 this skirt on the second stage is one of the reasons for its mediocre performance (dead weight), and I thought they were going to fix that for Ariane 6. Are we looking at the separation plane that will be used in flight, or will the aft skirt stay attached to the first stage?




The skirt, in this case interstage, appears to remain bolted to the LLPM given all of the bolt holes on the mating interface. The skirts upper separation joint appears to be located at the site of the stand mounts in the middle of the transport stand. The rear mount was removed when the rear cap was separated from the skirt.
« Last Edit: 01/27/2022 06:22 pm by russianhalo117 »

Offline GWR64

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1444
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1219
  • Likes Given: 779
https://twitter.com/BBE_Europe/status/1485984493659897861?cxt=HHwWioCy5cPBo58pAAAA

Daniel Neuenschwander, ESA Director of Space Transportation:
mid February: hot firing test of the upper stage in Lampoldshausen,
maiden flight Ariane 6 ... by the end of the year, depending on the tests

« Last Edit: 01/29/2022 10:10 am by GWR64 »

Offline GWR64

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1444
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1219
  • Likes Given: 779
<snip>
Apart from the CSO-3 launch, I wonder what will become with Galaxy-37.
The satellite is scheduled to launch on an Ariane 64.
It must be in service by December 5, 2023. Otherwise Intelsat violates the deadline for the C-band cleaning.
An Ariane-64 will probably take off in mid-2023 at the earliest.


Intelsat can move Galaxy-37 to the other possible launch provider if the Ariane 6 program gets delay or to be sure of start of service by Dec 5th 2023. Alternatively Intelsat can get a deadline extension.

It happened, Arianespace lost this contract to SpaceX.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43418.msg2343405#msg2343405

Offline Runerdieker

  • Member
  • Posts: 28
  • The Netherlands
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 1
Press releases from the ArianeGroup at the end of januari 2022 mentioned the following:
The first Ariane 6 specimen is intended for combined testing of the rocket with its new launchpad, and at the same time the Hot Firing Model (HFM) of the upper stage will be hot-fire tested in Lampoldshausen.
The stages of the first flight model are already being integrated in the plants of ArianeGroup in France and Germany.

So I guess the testing model of the central core will never fly and the Hot Firing Model wil also not fly?
Will anything of these models be re-used for future Ariane 6 rockets? It seems such a waste of expensive materials.

Offline Hobbes-22

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 849
  • Acme Engineering
    • Acme Engineering
  • Liked: 478
  • Likes Given: 406
Most of the cost of a rocket is not in the material, but in man-hours. Reusing these test articles may require as many man-hours as building new stages: the test articles may not be complete (skipping systems that won't be needed for the tests), they may not be flight-qualified (using preliminary designs that are good enough for the test, but must be replaced if the stage were to fly). The test articles are also a test run of the manufacturing process.

It's quite common when gearing up for production of a new, complex system to build prototypes that never go into service. Car manufacturers build hundreds of preproduction vehicles that can't be sold. Airplane manufacturers build at least one complete airframe that's used for fatigue testing only, etc.

Offline Timber Micka

According to Space News and this article ESA and Ariane are going forward with the P120C+ solids. This will have more propellant and allow 2 additional tonnes to LEO on Ariane 64. It will also increase performance for Vega.

Quote
“ Plans for a more powerful version of this engine, called P120C+, are already underway ,” says the European Space Agency. “ With an additional 14 t of solid propellant in a case that is approximately one meter longer, the P120C+ allows for a larger payload ”.

That's very good news ! This means that Ariane will finally be able to launch 23 t to LEO. 23 t was supposed to be Ariane 5's maximum payload capacity to LEO but this goal was never realized for several reasons.

Offline litton4

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 431
  • Liked: 257
  • Likes Given: 87
According to Space News and this article ESA and Ariane are going forward with the P120C+ solids. This will have more propellant and allow 2 additional tonnes to LEO on Ariane 64. It will also increase performance for Vega.

Quote
“ Plans for a more powerful version of this engine, called P120C+, are already underway ,” says the European Space Agency. “ With an additional 14 t of solid propellant in a case that is approximately one meter longer, the P120C+ allows for a larger payload ”.

That's very good news ! This means that Ariane will finally be able to launch 23 t to LEO. 23 t was supposed to be Ariane 5's maximum payload capacity to LEO but this goal was never realized for several reasons.

What reasons?

Just curious....
« Last Edit: 04/08/2022 09:07 am by litton4 »
Dave Condliffe

Offline Timber Micka

According to Space News and this article ESA and Ariane are going forward with the P120C+ solids. This will have more propellant and allow 2 additional tonnes to LEO on Ariane 64. It will also increase performance for Vega.

Quote
“ Plans for a more powerful version of this engine, called P120C+, are already underway ,” says the European Space Agency. “ With an additional 14 t of solid propellant in a case that is approximately one meter longer, the P120C+ allows for a larger payload ”.

That's very good news ! This means that Ariane will finally be able to launch 23 t to LEO. 23 t was supposed to be Ariane 5's maximum payload capacity to LEO but this goal was never realized for several reasons.

What reasons?

Just curious....

They needed the Vinci engine to achieve this payload capacity. Ariane 5 ECA with 20 tons to LEO was already more than enough for their needs and the development of Vinci was postponed many times until it was transferred to Ariane 6.

Offline libra

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1820
  • Liked: 1201
  • Likes Given: 2359
The Ariane 5 ECA maiden flight failure in December 2002 threw ESA into chaos and panic mode. Vinci was a collateral victim. Plain old HM-7 had to hang on longer.

Offline libra

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1820
  • Liked: 1201
  • Likes Given: 2359
There it is. Vinci was a collateral victim of the December 2002 ECA maiden flight failure.

Quote
Originally known as the Ariane 5ECB, Ariane 5ME was to have its first flight in 2006. However, the failure of the first ECA flight in 2002, combined with a deteriorating satellite industry, caused ESA to cancel development in 2003.

Development of the Vinci engine continued, though at a lower pace. The ESA Council of Ministers agreed to fund development of the new upper stage in November 2008.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_5#Variants

https://www.flightglobal.com/esa-cancels-plans-for-uprated-ariane-5-ecb/46749.article

In a sense, Ariane ECB lost a decade (2002-2012) before returning as Ariane 5ME: that also became a collateral victim, this time of SpaceX ascent to stardom.

Offline Rik ISS-fan

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1410
  • the Netherlands
  • Liked: 538
  • Likes Given: 205
Arianespace
Quote
Under the terms of the contract, Arianespace will perform 18 Ariane 6 launches for Amazon’s Project Kuiper over a period of three years from Europe’s Spaceport in French Guiana. Among the 18 launches planned for the deployment of the Project Kuiper, 16 will be carried out with an advanced version of the Ariane 64.
...
Out of the 18 A64 launches, 16 A64 will benefit from an increase in the power of the P120C solid boosters (called “P120C+” version).

The P120C+ will be a project with involvement for Italy and France (Guiana); Avio, ArianeGroup & Regulus.
Is the Amazon project Kuiper order enough for industry to fund the develpment of P120C+ (P156)?

The Icarus composite upper-stage is a development where Germany has been working on for several years.
Instead of investing in a second production line for P120C casings Germany/DLR/MT Aerospace invested in the development of a lighter weight ULPM. (and RFA)
Each kilogram of weight saved on the ULPM structure is additional payload capability.
Most likely the result of both approaches are quite similar.

According to Space News and this article ESA and Ariane are going forward with the P120C+ solids. This will have more propellant and allow 2 additional tonnes to LEO on Ariane 64. It will also increase performance for Vega.
So with 4x14mT = 56mT additional solid propellent only 2mT additional payload can be launched to LEO.

The plan for P120C production was up to 35 P120C's annually. (AVIO 2018) How is this going to be impacted by introducing P120C+? What are the consequences for P120C(+) production capability?

With the Amazon project Kuiper order, the launch demand shifts more the the Ariane 64 than initially planned. Institutional payloads often require SSO or escape orbit's, those are best served by Vega C/Ariane 62. Besides this they accounted for several GTO comsat launches (duo launch on Ariane 64).
I think the P120C production capability already is required to be higher than the 35 initially planned.
A launch scenario for 2023 to 2025 annually:
A64: 6x Amazon + 2x GTO = 8x 4 P120C(+) = 32 P120C(+)
A62: 2x SSO /odd orbits + 1xMEO Gallileo = 3x 2 P120C(+) = 6 P120C(+)
Vega C/E 4x P120C(+).
This requires 42x P120C+; 4x Zefiro40/Z9A/Avum+ and 11x LLPM and ULPM.
The historic high has been 7x Ariane 5 this required 7x 4 107.4mT grains to be casted by Regulus. ~3000 mT
And 7x 2 ~23.4mT forward grains at Avio. 327.6mT (4x Z40&Z9A (36+10.5) = 186mT at Avio)
The 35 P120C (P142) equates to 4970 mT of solid fuel casting. the extreme case of 42x P120C+ = 6552mT
Do others also see a problem here with the potential solution being a P40-P65; a stretched Z40 booster?

About the qualification models of Ariane 6 LLPM and ULPM. I don't think they will be reused.
I think the main reason for this is material degradation with thermal cycling. A stage can only be filled and drained a limited amount of times, because the thermal stressed (shrinking because of the cold fuel and oxidizer) degrade the material. The qualification model is worn out when launch site qualification is complete.   
« Last Edit: 04/10/2022 10:16 pm by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline hoku

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 563
  • Liked: 486
  • Likes Given: 274
Hello,
Are there any updates to the Ariane 6 upper stage 'hot-firing model' in Lampoldshausen?

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31484.msg2191901#msg2191901
According to Karl-Heinz Servos (Chief Operating Officer Arianegroup Germany) by the midst of July they had encountered about 2 months of delays, with - at that time - the 1st (out of 3) hot fires planned for the end of August/early September. Haven't seen any more recent updates.

Die erste heiße Zündung soll Ende August oder Anfang September stattfinden – etwa zwei Monate später als geplant. Das liegt einerseits an den Auswirkungen der Pandemie auf Arbeitsabläufe und Lieferketten, andererseits an "kleineren Rückschlägen beim ersten Testmodell", so Servos.
https://www.flugrevue.de/raumfahrt/neue-europaeische-traegerrakete-wie-steht-es-um-die-ariane-6/
I'm wondering if I did miss any updates on the hot-fire tests of the upper stage? A news release by DLR from 3 weeks ago stated that they were preparing tests: "Zurzeit bereitet ein DLR-Team am Prüfstand P5.2 Tests der Oberstufe der europäischen Trägerrakete Ariane 6 vor."

Will this be the 1st (or 2nd/3rd) of the planned hot-fire tests?

https://www.dlr.de/content/de/artikel/news/2022/02/20220505_besuch-mp-kretschmann-dlr-la.html

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement SkyTale Software GmbH
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1