SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon CRS SpX-1 MISSION GENERAL DISCUSSION

[Idiomatic]

4) Checkout mate. (2 days: 5 days)

Really? What do they do for two full days if everything goes smoothly?

From personal experience 2 days is a very short time. And for a first test after electrical connectors have been plugged together nothing ever goes without problems which also includes plugging in the test equipment itself. The Trunk has active electronics and checkout also includes letting the Dragon computers run a complete system diagnostics test. This is the first time this has been run because you need the Trunk mated to do a full test. This test is not short. Other tests are performed before even that test can be done. Validating power connectors (the old fashioned way with volt meters to look for continuity and connector resitance and O-scopes to look for connector noise) before any electronics is turned on. Also critical command lines are also checked so that when powered on control is maintained.

Thanks. I think the full diagnostic could mostly be run over night? I wonder if you could build a jig to speed up the power testing. Or how much of this can be done overlapping (not a lot i'm guessing). I guess 1 day might be possible with a really good day .... that's just unlikely. Maybe with practice they'll get it down With one launch a year though, a day doesn't mean a whole lot.

[Jim]

4) Checkout mate. (2 days: 5 days)

Really? What do they do for two full days if everything goes smoothly?

From personal experience 2 days is a very short time. And for a first test after electrical connectors have been plugged together nothing ever goes without problems which also includes plugging in the test equipment itself. The Trunk has active electronics and checkout also includes letting the Dragon computers run a complete system diagnostics test. This is the first time this has been run because you need the Trunk mated to do a full test. This test is not short. Other tests are performed before even that test can be done. Validating power connectors (the old fashioned way with volt meters to look for continuity and connector resitance and O-scopes to look for connector noise) before any electronics is turned on. Also critical command lines are also checked so that when powered on control is maintained.

Thanks. I think the full diagnostic could mostly be run over night? I wonder if you could build a jig to speed up the power testing. Or how much of this can be done overlapping (not a lot i'm guessing). I guess 1 day might be possible with a really good day .... that's just unlikely. Maybe with practice they'll get it down With one launch a year though, a day doesn't mean a whole lot.

Manpower is the only way to shorten it.  I believe is going by single shifts per day.

The standard is about two days after the LV to spacecraft disconnects are mated.  (the spacecraft EGSE has already been mated to the launch vehicle umbilicals and tested, which is also a one day test or so)  One shift for the spacecraft to do an aliveness test which by default checks out the disconnects and then another shift for combined LV/spacecraft test.

The longer testing is the EGSE validation but that can be in parallel with other ops.  Spacex does need to move their EGSE from when used in testing Dragon to interfacing with the Falcon so this may be transparent.  Or they might use the GC3 system for both Dragon and Falcon

[Idiomatic]

Manpower is the only way to shorten it.

Lol. Cause technology and spaceflight is perfect and unchanging. They solved it during Apollo and like MSDOS will never be changed or replaced. Sorry for the sarcasm. But it drives me nuts when you say things like fact that patently aren't.

[Jim]

Manpower is the only way to shorten it.

Lol. Cause technology and spaceflight is perfect and unchanging. They solved it during Apollo and like MSDOS will never be changed or replaced. Sorry for the sarcasm. But it drives me nuts when you say things like fact that patently aren't.

It drives me nuts when you make consistently wrong statement like the above. What I said it a fact.  You don't know enough to know that.  Testing is what ever it takes and depends on spacecraft complexity and what can and needs be tested in the pad configuration. Technology isn't going to change that a spacecraft has to connected to the launch vehicle.  There will be a mechanical attachment with a sep system and there will be some type of electrical interface that will be disconnected at launch/in flight. Those will take a finite amount of time to do. 

Anyways, my comment was about shifts and a "jig".  Testing over night would take multiple shifts.  With a small crew that Spacex has, that might not be possible.  A "jig" is not going to reduce testing.  Spacecraft usually have standard tests from simple aliveness to comprehensive performance.   For projects that have common sense (this is directed at the whole spacecraft community, DOD, NASA, NRO, commercial, JPL, APL, GSFC,etc), aliveness tests after major milestones (spacecraft delivery, movement between facilities, prop loading, sc mate, launch day, etc) should be sufficient.  Also, they can look at their risk posture and reduce or eliminate testing after certain ops.

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

Jim, yes adding more manpower given a specific set of test equipment may decrease the process time but that is definitely not a given. Multiple items that have to be performed consecutively in the flow will still take the same amount of execution time. So going to a 24/7 footing may reduce your overall process dates start to finish. It won’t be an exact multiplier due to inefficiencies of not having all the skills needed to perform the right task at the right time for minimal number of days.

My time working Shuttle Canadarm showed me that test equipment on Shuttle was an afterthought and received scant funding so it was poorly designed making it cumbersome and time consuming to calibrate/validate. Well-designed test equipment, especially BIT (Built in Test) capable equipment that run a validation at every power-on and uses a laptop connected through a USB to do all the Human Interface and only having a few switches for safeing the test equipment, would do wonders for task time and manpower reduction for tasks that have to be done just once every couple of months even. The calibration/validation test procedure on the Canadarn test equipment took a crew 8 hours to accomplish. The crew consisted of: 2 techs, test manager (a test director that was not much more than a tech), the contractor engineer, a QA, and the NASA engineer. In manpower alone running the calibration/validation test cost ~$400. If it was reduced to a 5 minute POT at the beginning of running a test with the flight hardware you would save $400.

If SpaceX has not gone the route of doing good engineering for their specialized test equipment to minimize manpower requirements for its use then they have areas other than increasing manpower, going to 24/7 operations, that will reduce the number of days for processing.

[watermod]

Interesting ... space launches don't, in general, use automated test tools?
I sense a market opportunity... to bad I am more a comm. background...

[Jim]

Interesting ... space launches don't, in general, use automated test tools?
I sense a market opportunity... to bad I am more a comm. background...

They do.  Most of the time is spend in getting the hardware into the test configuration. For example, when some launch vehicles do a simulated flight test.  All the ordnance circuits are not connected to ordnance but to a ground telemetry system to verify that all ordnance signals were sent during the simulated flight.  After this, the ordnance is hooked up.

[Idiomatic]

The calibration/validation test procedure on the Canadarn test equipment took a crew 8 hours to accomplish. The crew consisted of: 2 techs, test manager (a test director that was not much more than a tech), the contractor engineer, a QA, and the NASA engineer. In manpower alone running the calibration/validation test cost ~$400. If it was reduced to a 5 minute POT at the beginning of running a test with the flight hardware you would save $400.

Thanks for the interesting post but your math here tripped me up... 6 people over 8 hours at space engineer wages is at least $3,000 cost to the company. How did you get $400? Or did you mean 8 man hours?

[Comga]

Well,today anik has moved CRS-1 launch from ' Oct 5" to "NET Oct 6".
Small slip, which could be due to a lot of things, and an expression of more uncertainty, which could be for a lot of reasons.  But if anik keeps it on the schedule, there is a good probability that nothing major is impacting the schedule.

51 days out.  That is approaching AtlasEguy's upper limit of 46 days, and the upper limit is what one would want to use for a schedule.

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

The calibration/validation test procedure on the Canadarn test equipment took a crew 8 hours to accomplish. The crew consisted of: 2 techs, test manager (a test director that was not much more than a tech), the contractor engineer, a QA, and the NASA engineer. In manpower alone running the calibration/validation test cost ~$400. If it was reduced to a 5 minute POT at the beginning of running a test with the flight hardware you would save $400.

Thanks for the interesting post but your math here tripped me up... 6 people over 8 hours at space engineer wages is at least $3,000 cost to the company. How did you get $400? Or did you mean 8 man hours?

I used just the wage pay at 1985 average rates or ~$8.33 an man-hour. If the modern costs is $3,000 for 8 manhours then the test costs would be a lot more today. But also most recently developed test equipment has a great deal of automation in it. In some ways its even easier to develop the test equipment with automation than without. If SpaceX wqas smart they went this route where ever it made cost effective sense.

[dcporter]

...for 8 manhours...

Six people for eight hours is 48 man-hours, not 8, which I think you know because 48 * $8.33 is $399.50.  I'm shocked that anyone in aerospace made eight bucks an hour at any point during my lifetime though, and I'd hazard a WAG that the modern prices are higher than that by a factor of 5 - 10?

[Prober]

The calibration/validation test procedure on the Canadarn test equipment took a crew 8 hours to accomplish. The crew consisted of: 2 techs, test manager (a test director that was not much more than a tech), the contractor engineer, a QA, and the NASA engineer. In manpower alone running the calibration/validation test cost ~$400. If it was reduced to a 5 minute POT at the beginning of running a test with the flight hardware you would save $400.

Thanks for the interesting post but your math here tripped me up... 6 people over 8 hours at space engineer wages is at least $3,000 cost to the company. How did you get $400? Or did you mean 8 man hours?

I used just the wage pay at 1985 average rates or ~$8.33 an man-hour. If the modern costs is $3,000 for 8 manhours then the test costs would be a lot more today. But also most recently developed test equipment has a great deal of automation in it. In some ways its even easier to develop the test equipment with automation than without. If SpaceX wqas smart they went this route where ever it made cost effective sense.

ok this will go slightly off topic maybe for a couple of posts only.  Watched the prep of a Mission (just a sat) and 15 people were in the room to install the fairing etc.  Seemed like alot.

[aero]

I would guess that several of them were on site for another function or aspect of the launch but with nothing to do at the time, they watched or participated in the activity. Salaried people don't go off the clock just because their function is not active at the moment so it looks like a lot of people but the skill sets are quite different.

[Prober]

I assume the Dragon for this mission is also in it's final stages of checkout / integration testing, right ?

When does the actual cargo for the mission arrive, and get loaded into the Dragon ? I assume that all has to happen in the next 2 or 3 weeks, right ?

thought we were waiting for a Dragon to get an ok before shipping....confused.

[Robotbeat]

I assume the Dragon for this mission is also in it's final stages of checkout / integration testing, right ?

When does the actual cargo for the mission arrive, and get loaded into the Dragon ? I assume that all has to happen in the next 2 or 3 weeks, right ?

thought we were waiting for a Dragon to get an ok before shipping....confused.

Who said they'd tell us?

[Prober]

I assume the Dragon for this mission is also in it's final stages of checkout / integration testing, right ?

When does the actual cargo for the mission arrive, and get loaded into the Dragon ? I assume that all has to happen in the next 2 or 3 weeks, right ?

Who said they'd tell us?

thought we were waiting for a Dragon to get an ok before shipping....confused.

taxpayer funds have paid for the pre-mission planning and will pay for the mission this should be open book information.

[ugordan]

taxpayer funds have paid for the pre-mission planning and will pay for the mission this should be open book information.

Riiiight...

[Robotbeat]

I assume the Dragon for this mission is also in it's final stages of checkout / integration testing, right ?

When does the actual cargo for the mission arrive, and get loaded into the Dragon ? I assume that all has to happen in the next 2 or 3 weeks, right ?

thought we were waiting for a Dragon to get an ok before shipping....confused.

Who said they'd tell us?

taxpayer funds have paid for the pre-mission planning and will pay for the mission this should be open book information.

Uh huh. You do know that SpaceX employees aren't civil service, right?

[Lee Jay]

I assume the Dragon for this mission is also in it's final stages of checkout / integration testing, right ?

When does the actual cargo for the mission arrive, and get loaded into the Dragon ? I assume that all has to happen in the next 2 or 3 weeks, right ?

Who said they'd tell us?

thought we were waiting for a Dragon to get an ok before shipping....confused.

taxpayer funds have paid for the pre-mission planning and will pay for the mission this should be open book information.

Taxpayers are paying for the service of transportation.  Just because you hire semi truck to transport something from place to place doesn't mean the truck owner or transport company has to open their books for you.  They just have to provide the service that was contracted for.

[Lurker Steve]

I assume the Dragon for this mission is also in it's final stages of checkout / integration testing, right ?

When does the actual cargo for the mission arrive, and get loaded into the Dragon ? I assume that all has to happen in the next 2 or 3 weeks, right ?

thought we were waiting for a Dragon to get an ok before shipping....confused.

If Bolden says SpaceX has the go ahead for their CRS contract, and the launch date is very early October, then things should be coming together very soon. I have my own project that needs to be complete by October 1st, and I know that there aren't many weeks left in the calendar between now and then.