Author Topic: Starliner on Vulcan  (Read 30430 times)

Online Robotbeat

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Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #40 on: 03/01/2023 08:37 pm »
It might help justify crew rating Vulcan if they can use Vulcan Heavy to do lunar missions with an up rated BLEO Starliner. So I can see them developing that at the same time.

Right now (or after Starliner has its first crewed mission and after Starship has a successful orbital flight) would be a good time for NASA to start getting industry input for a commercial crew service to Gateway/cislunar. Maybe an RFP.
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Online TrevorMonty

Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #41 on: 03/01/2023 10:39 pm »
It might help justify crew rating Vulcan if they can use Vulcan Heavy to do lunar missions with an up rated BLEO Starliner. So I can see them developing that at the same time.

Right now (or after Starliner has its first crewed mission and after Starship has a successful orbital flight) would be a good time for NASA to start getting industry input for a commercial crew service to Gateway/cislunar. Maybe an RFP.
That would make SLS redundant. Something ULA may well do in future with new owners whoever they are.
« Last Edit: 03/02/2023 02:59 pm by zubenelgenubi »

Offline DanClemmensen

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Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #42 on: 03/01/2023 10:53 pm »
It might help justify crew rating Vulcan if they can use Vulcan Heavy to do lunar missions with an up rated BLEO Starliner. So I can see them developing that at the same time.
A minor note on nomenclature: The largest Vulcan is called "Vulcan upgrade", not "Vulcan Heavy". From Wikipedia: "The most powerful Vulcan Centaur will have a Vulcan first stage, a Centaur upper stage with RL10CX engines with a nozzle extension and six SRBs."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_Centaur
The configuration was formerly called "Vulcan Heavy", but the name was changed, presumably to reserve the name "Vulcan Heavy" for a 3-core version that was being investigated.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #43 on: 03/01/2023 11:27 pm »
It might help justify crew rating Vulcan if they can use Vulcan Heavy to do lunar missions with an up rated BLEO Starliner. So I can see them developing that at the same time.
A minor note on nomenclature: The largest Vulcan is called "Vulcan upgrade", not "Vulcan Heavy". From Wikipedia: "The most powerful Vulcan Centaur will have a Vulcan first stage, a Centaur upper stage with RL10CX engines with a nozzle extension and six SRBs."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_Centaur
The configuration was formerly called "Vulcan Heavy", but the name was changed, presumably to reserve the name "Vulcan Heavy" for a 3-core version that was being investigated.
No, I’m using Vulcan heavy intentionally as I’m referring to the tricore version. (And “Vulcan Heavy” ALWAYS referred to the tricore version.)
« Last Edit: 03/01/2023 11:57 pm by Robotbeat »
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To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline DanClemmensen

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Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #44 on: 03/02/2023 01:12 am »
It might help justify crew rating Vulcan if they can use Vulcan Heavy to do lunar missions with an up rated BLEO Starliner. So I can see them developing that at the same time.
A minor note on nomenclature: The largest Vulcan is called "Vulcan upgrade", not "Vulcan Heavy". From Wikipedia: "The most powerful Vulcan Centaur will have a Vulcan first stage, a Centaur upper stage with RL10CX engines with a nozzle extension and six SRBs."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_Centaur
The configuration was formerly called "Vulcan Heavy", but the name was changed, presumably to reserve the name "Vulcan Heavy" for a 3-core version that was being investigated.
No, I’m using Vulcan heavy intentionally as I’m referring to the tricore version. (And “Vulcan Heavy” ALWAYS referred to the tricore version.)
I became interested in the awhile back, which is why I knew the nomenclature had changed. Here is a version of the ULA data sheet from 2020:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20200605032023/https://www.ulalaunch.com/docs/default-source/rockets/vulcancentaur.pdf
and here is the current version:
    https://www.ulalaunch.com/docs/default-source/rockets/vulcancentaur.pdf

As you can see, ULA really did refer to the most capable single-stick V6 as "Vulcan Heavy".

Online Robotbeat

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Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #45 on: 03/02/2023 05:47 am »
It might help justify crew rating Vulcan if they can use Vulcan Heavy to do lunar missions with an up rated BLEO Starliner. So I can see them developing that at the same time.
A minor note on nomenclature: The largest Vulcan is called "Vulcan upgrade", not "Vulcan Heavy". From Wikipedia: "The most powerful Vulcan Centaur will have a Vulcan first stage, a Centaur upper stage with RL10CX engines with a nozzle extension and six SRBs."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_Centaur
The configuration was formerly called "Vulcan Heavy", but the name was changed, presumably to reserve the name "Vulcan Heavy" for a 3-core version that was being investigated.
No, I’m using Vulcan heavy intentionally as I’m referring to the tricore version. (And “Vulcan Heavy” ALWAYS referred to the tricore version.)
I became interested in the awhile back, which is why I knew the nomenclature had changed. Here is a version of the ULA data sheet from 2020:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20200605032023/https://www.ulalaunch.com/docs/default-source/rockets/vulcancentaur.pdf
and here is the current version:
    https://www.ulalaunch.com/docs/default-source/rockets/vulcancentaur.pdf

As you can see, ULA really did refer to the most capable single-stick V6 as "Vulcan Heavy".
Nope! They referred to it as “Vulcan Centaur Heavy.” And your links confirm it. You’re falsely using “Vulcan heavy” in quotes! That exact phrase is NOT mentioned (except in reference to the tricore variant)!
« Last Edit: 03/02/2023 05:48 am by Robotbeat »
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Online ZachS09

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Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #46 on: 03/02/2023 12:43 pm »
It might help justify crew rating Vulcan if they can use Vulcan Heavy to do lunar missions with an up rated BLEO Starliner. So I can see them developing that at the same time.
A minor note on nomenclature: The largest Vulcan is called "Vulcan upgrade", not "Vulcan Heavy". From Wikipedia: "The most powerful Vulcan Centaur will have a Vulcan first stage, a Centaur upper stage with RL10CX engines with a nozzle extension and six SRBs."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_Centaur
The configuration was formerly called "Vulcan Heavy", but the name was changed, presumably to reserve the name "Vulcan Heavy" for a 3-core version that was being investigated.
No, I’m using Vulcan heavy intentionally as I’m referring to the tricore version. (And “Vulcan Heavy” ALWAYS referred to the tricore version.)
I became interested in the awhile back, which is why I knew the nomenclature had changed. Here is a version of the ULA data sheet from 2020:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20200605032023/https://www.ulalaunch.com/docs/default-source/rockets/vulcancentaur.pdf
and here is the current version:
    https://www.ulalaunch.com/docs/default-source/rockets/vulcancentaur.pdf

As you can see, ULA really did refer to the most capable single-stick V6 as "Vulcan Heavy".
Nope! They referred to it as “Vulcan Centaur Heavy.” And your links confirm it. You’re falsely using “Vulcan heavy” in quotes! That exact phrase is NOT mentioned (except in reference to the tricore variant)!

Can we put a “heavy” pin in this argument before it gets out of hand?
Liftoff for St. Jude's! Go Dragon, Go Falcon, Godspeed Inspiration4!

Offline tgr9898

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Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #47 on: 03/03/2023 02:04 am »

As you can see, ULA really did refer to the most capable single-stick V6 as "Vulcan Heavy".
Nope! They referred to it as “Vulcan Centaur Heavy.” And your links confirm it. You’re falsely using “Vulcan heavy” in quotes! That exact phrase is NOT mentioned (except in reference to the tricore variant)!

Can we put a “heavy” pin in this argument before it gets out of hand?

One pin by itself or three pins clustered together?

Online ZachS09

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Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #48 on: 03/03/2023 04:19 am »

As you can see, ULA really did refer to the most capable single-stick V6 as "Vulcan Heavy".
Nope! They referred to it as “Vulcan Centaur Heavy.” And your links confirm it. You’re falsely using “Vulcan heavy” in quotes! That exact phrase is NOT mentioned (except in reference to the tricore variant)!

Can we put a “heavy” pin in this argument before it gets out of hand?

One pin by itself or three pins clustered together?

Three.
Liftoff for St. Jude's! Go Dragon, Go Falcon, Godspeed Inspiration4!

Offline Vahe231991

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Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #49 on: 05/24/2023 02:00 am »
It might help justify crew rating Vulcan if they can use Vulcan Heavy to do lunar missions with an up rated BLEO Starliner. So I can see them developing that at the same time.

Right now (or after Starliner has its first crewed mission and after Starship has a successful orbital flight) would be a good time for NASA to start getting industry input for a commercial crew service to Gateway/cislunar. Maybe an RFP.
That would make SLS redundant. Something ULA may well do in future with new owners whoever they are.
With Blue Origin having recently won a contract from NASA to become the second company to provide lunar landing services for the Artemis program, any talk of proposing to use the Vulcan Heavy to conduct lunar missions involving an uprated Starliner will be definitely out of the question if Blue Origin decides to develop a larger version of the New Glenn to carry a cargo spacecraft to haul supplies to the Gateway Lunar Station.

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #50 on: 05/24/2023 03:00 am »
It might help justify crew rating Vulcan if they can use Vulcan Heavy to do lunar missions with an up rated BLEO Starliner. So I can see them developing that at the same time.

Right now (or after Starliner has its first crewed mission and after Starship has a successful orbital flight) would be a good time for NASA to start getting industry input for a commercial crew service to Gateway/cislunar. Maybe an RFP.
That would make SLS redundant. Something ULA may well do in future with new owners whoever they are.
With Blue Origin having recently won a contract from NASA to become the second company to provide lunar landing services for the Artemis program, any talk of proposing to use the Vulcan Heavy to conduct lunar missions involving an uprated Starliner will be definitely out of the question if Blue Origin decides to develop a larger version of the New Glenn to carry a cargo spacecraft to haul supplies to the Gateway Lunar Station.

With the CIS Lunar Transporter in the mix now, Vulcan can just deliver Starliner to that for transport to the moon rather than doing a Starliner TLI delivery.

Offline Jim

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Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #51 on: 05/25/2023 05:36 pm »

With Blue Origin having recently won a contract from NASA to become the second company to provide lunar landing services for the Artemis program, any talk of proposing to use the Vulcan Heavy to conduct lunar missions involving an uprated Starliner will be definitely out of the question if Blue Origin decides to develop a larger version of the New Glenn to carry a cargo spacecraft to haul supplies to the Gateway Lunar Station.

Unsubstantiated

Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #52 on: 05/25/2023 05:40 pm »
Do you think we might see Starliner on New Glenn? There hasn't been any more talk of man-rating Vulcan from NASA, Boeing, or ULA. At least that I've seen. Particularly if either Lockheed is buying Boeing out of ULA, or Blue is buying ULA, it might make sense for Being to just move to New Glenn, which is being man-rated from the start.

An entirely different provider is also possible; the Firefly/NG MLV has grown to 16mT to LEO now, so it could probably launch Starliner.
Wait, ∆V? This site will accept the ∆ symbol? How many times have I written out the word "delta" for no reason?

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #53 on: 05/25/2023 05:57 pm »
Do you think we might see Starliner on New Glenn? There hasn't been any more talk of man-rating Vulcan from NASA, Boeing, or ULA. At least that I've seen. Particularly if either Lockheed is buying Boeing out of ULA, or Blue is buying ULA, it might make sense for Being to just move to New Glenn, which is being man-rated from the start.

An entirely different provider is also possible; the Firefly/NG MLV has grown to 16mT to LEO now, so it could probably launch Starliner.

New Glenn certainly has the payload capacity, and it is likely to be cheaper than Vulcan.

Both Vulcan and New Glenn have been designed with human rating in mind, and both could be certified as such by NASA with probably a very similar level of difficulty / cost.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #54 on: 05/25/2023 06:47 pm »
Both Vulcan and New Glenn have been designed with human rating in mind, and both could be certified as such by NASA with probably a very similar level of difficulty / cost.
Still, New Glenn should be 'cheaper' to crew-certify, because Bezos will probably pay for it, rather than Boeing or ULA having too.
Wait, ∆V? This site will accept the ∆ symbol? How many times have I written out the word "delta" for no reason?

Offline Jim

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Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #55 on: 05/25/2023 06:59 pm »
Both Vulcan and New Glenn have been designed with human rating in mind, and both could be certified as such by NASA with probably a very similar level of difficulty / cost.
Still, New Glenn should be 'cheaper' to crew-certify, because Bezos will probably pay for it, rather than Boeing or ULA having too.

can't say that

Online TrevorMonty

Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #56 on: 05/25/2023 07:29 pm »
ULA has already certified Atlas for Starliner doing same for Vulcan shouldn't be hard. Be surprised if they didn't allow for it in the design. ULA also has crew access tower on the pad.

Offline DanClemmensen

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Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #57 on: 05/25/2023 07:30 pm »
Both Vulcan and New Glenn have been designed with human rating in mind, and both could be certified as such by NASA with probably a very similar level of difficulty / cost.
Still, New Glenn should be 'cheaper' to crew-certify, because Bezos will probably pay for it, rather than Boeing or ULA having too.
This thread is supposed to be about Starliner on Vulcan, not about new Glenn. It should be easier to certify Starliner on Vulcan, because the Vulcan Centaur architecture is effectively identical to Atlas V: SRBs, two stage to orbit, no faring covering Starliner. furthermore, Vulcan Centaur is supposed to fly in a month or so, so the certification process will start sooner.

Vulcan may also be used for crewed Dreamchaser, so certification costs might be shared. Based on something posted (by Jim?) some time ago about Starliner on Atlas V, the LV portion of crew certification is all about the signalling from the LV to the crewed spacecraft. Presumably the same interface will be used for Vulcan.

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #58 on: 05/25/2023 08:05 pm »
ULA has already certified Atlas for Starliner doing same for Vulcan shouldn't be hard. Be surprised if they didn't allow for it in the design. ULA also has crew access tower on the pad.

Yes, Vulcan was designed with human rating in mind, per a tweet by Tory Bruno in 2019.

It doesn't have a retractable access arm, but crew access pathways have been built into Blue Origin's big launch tower at LC-36
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Re: Starliner on Vulcan
« Reply #59 on: 05/25/2023 10:30 pm »
Both Vulcan and New Glenn have been designed with human rating in mind, and both could be certified as such by NASA with probably a very similar level of difficulty / cost.
Still, New Glenn should be 'cheaper' to crew-certify, because Bezos will probably pay for it, rather than Boeing or ULA having too.

can't say that
Well seeing as I did say that...
Unless of course you mean that I can't be sure of that, which is obviously true, and the reason the word 'probably' was in the sentence.
Wait, ∆V? This site will accept the ∆ symbol? How many times have I written out the word "delta" for no reason?

 

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