Superb post Proponent!My knowledge has been embiggened.Thank you
Some of the advantages of propellant depots are the decoupling of risks. Bring up oxygen, bring up fuel, maybe some habitats, etc, and if everything is fine, prepare crew and start.If you do a last minute delivery before crew lift off, this two elements are closely coupled. If the hydrogen delivery fails, everything fails. All preparations done are lost, crew and ground support waiting, etc.In contrast: if the hydrogen is brought up months before the crew is scheduled to start and something happens, there is time to react. (For really big missions it might be worth to keep a core as backup available).
If you do a last minute delivery before crew lift off, this two elements are closely coupled. If the hydrogen delivery fails, everything fails. All preparations done are lost, crew and ground support waiting, etc.
Quote from: Remes on 07/17/2014 12:45 amSome of the advantages of propellant depots are the decoupling of risks. Bring up oxygen, bring up fuel, maybe some habitats, etc, and if everything is fine, prepare crew and start.If you do a last minute delivery before crew lift off, this two elements are closely coupled. If the hydrogen delivery fails, everything fails. All preparations done are lost, crew and ground support waiting, etc.In contrast: if the hydrogen is brought up months before the crew is scheduled to start and something happens, there is time to react. (For really big missions it might be worth to keep a core as backup available).Excellent point. Suggests that having a second hydrogen tanker ready to go would be prudent. If we are getting to the level of 250+ ton 12 launch missions (corrected out 2 LOX launches from the original due to non stoich ratio, I think that's right) having another tank module ready to go might not be that big of an expense.
Quote from: Remes on 07/17/2014 12:45 amIf you do a last minute delivery before crew lift off, this two elements are closely coupled. If the hydrogen delivery fails, everything fails. All preparations done are lost, crew and ground support waiting, etc.This leads to a mission mode where crew and hydrogen launch together. They pull into the depot, LOX up, and go.
The single mission to somewhere may not be extinct but IMHO will become increasingly rare. Where a series of missions exist the LON hydrogen tank for this mission becomes the main hydrogen tank for the next mission.
The LEO depot or LEO gas station allows multiple smaller LVs to supply 70% of the mass for BEO missions: propellant.
To reduce IMLEO, raise the ISP, hence EP with less propellant but requires power, perhaps MWs. To reduce the station keeping propellant to zero, simply add power rather than burn propellant--recall that ULA used tons of LH2 boiloff for station keeping and LOX ZBO in their depot approach--make sure you account for this in the trade.
{snip}In LEO, I don't believe it's possible to eliminate station keeping, though you could reduce it via SEP, at the expense of having an extra liquid in the depot.
Quote from: MP99 on 07/17/2014 09:57 pm{snip}In LEO, I don't believe it's possible to eliminate station keeping, though you could reduce it via SEP, at the expense of having an extra liquid in the depot. A SEP tug is under development, which the ARM project may use. Reusable SEP tugs may wish to refuel when picking up a new cargo. This may even be the same propellant as used by the depot for station keeping.
Reminds me of those schemes to gather gas from the upper atmosphere and recover momentum by electric propulsion. They seem particularly appropriate here since I dont think they could collect much hydrogen anyway.The lost momentum shouldn't be proportional to mass though, it should be proportional to surface area, particularly, I imagine, the front facing surface area. Maybe a long zeppelin shape covered in solar panels? The density of liquid oxygen compared to say the ISS should help also. I wonder why I have never seen a station that looks optimized to reduce drag.(edit) just noticed a problem with my zeppelin.. A depot probably wants to stay sun oriented to keep a shade always facing the sun.Failing that.. orbit higher!