Author Topic: Scaling Agriculture on Mars  (Read 574099 times)

Offline AegeanBlue

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 699
  • Raleigh
  • Liked: 263
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #480 on: 02/23/2016 06:26 pm »
My understanding was that the zinnia plants caught a mold infection. He asked the experts, they told him reduce humidity, he had the fans open for more time reducing humidity in Veggie and the fungus receded. As a result they bloomed again.

Offline spacenut

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5181
  • East Alabama
  • Liked: 2587
  • Likes Given: 2895
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #481 on: 02/23/2016 10:41 pm »
My grandfather had a "farm want-a-be".  He raised chickens, some peanuts (about an acre), vegetable garden, had all kinds of fruit and nut trees.  I learned gardening from him.  One can grow a lot, and I mean a lot of food (vegetables) in a small space, rotating crops, growing year round (deep south), and using cold frames or a small greenhouse in winter.  My late FIL had two small (about an acre each) fish ponds that he raised bream and catfish in.  He had more fish than the whole family could eat, and so he supplied the local county jail with fish occasionally.  Both my grandfather and my late FIL only had an 8th grade education, but they knew how to grow and raise food. 

My son is in aquaculture and has learned a lot about raising tilapia.  I know how my grandfather raised chickens as I spent every summer with him during grade school. 

Again all that being said, a lot of real food, not made from algae, soybeans, or such can be grown in small controlled spaces. 

Now, for Martian colonists, here is a potential problem if we stick with only one or two main crops (algae or soybeans).  I, and maybe many others have become in my older age, allergic to foods that I once ate all my life.  I have become allergic to soy and soy products, milk and milk products, peanuts, tomatoes, and wheat (not gluten).  I have no reason why, but I have.  This may happen to Martian colonists unless extensive family screening is done prior to going to Mars.  So, having an extensive variety of foods might become necessary over time, to avoid problems. 

Offline alexterrell

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1747
  • Germany
  • Liked: 184
  • Likes Given: 107
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #482 on: 02/25/2016 12:07 pm »
I saw Dara O'Briain's program "Tomorrow's Food" yesterday:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06r3jh5

He reported from the Quorn factory. Apparently, Quorn is a fungus which is fermented in large vats with sugar as the primary feedstock.

Personally, I prefer real meat, but all accounts Quorn is a good substitute and could form the main source of protein - on Mars as well. The question then is where to get the sugar from?

Can sugars be built artificially from basic hydrocarbons?

Alternatively, http://www.cnbc.com/2015/05/21/could-algae-save-the-world.html
"What makes these algae very special is they're extraordinarily fast at using photosynthesis to convert carbon dioxide, salt water and sunshine into sugars," Woods said. "It does that about 50 times faster than the terrestrial normal plants we use to make ethanol."

 

Offline spacenut

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5181
  • East Alabama
  • Liked: 2587
  • Likes Given: 2895
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #483 on: 02/25/2016 12:49 pm »
I agree algae would be the basic beginning building block, for food and fuel, and maybe even plastics.  Like I said earlier, tilapia eat algae, so that is a direct protein conversion, with waste from processing going into fertilizers for regular soil or hydroponic plants.  Not only the fish excrements, but from cleaning the fish for food, the intestines can be dehydrated, powdered and used for fertilizer also.  After algae, tilapia, and high yielding garden vegetables, then follow with chickens and maybe catfish, then rabbits, or guinea pigs.  Chickens would produce eggs as well as meat.  Grains like wheat, corn, and rice would come later as well as maybe larger animals. 

Offline RonM

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3340
  • Atlanta, Georgia USA
  • Liked: 2231
  • Likes Given: 1584
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #484 on: 02/25/2016 03:32 pm »
I doubt larger livestock would ever be used on Mars. It's debatable that larger livestock are practical on Earth with the amount of resources required to produce the useable calories.

Mars colonists will have to get use to fish, rabbits, and guinea pigs. Maybe chickens because they are small and produce eggs. Steak and bacon can be imported from Earth for special occasions.

I don't see grain production either, considering the amount of area that would take. Stick with algae production.

Offline spacenut

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5181
  • East Alabama
  • Liked: 2587
  • Likes Given: 2895
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #485 on: 02/25/2016 04:59 pm »
They could make chicken bacon, like they make turkey bacon, unless turkeys are brought.  Ground chicken or rabbit could be flavored, colored, and textured to look like hamburger.  There is a small rodent from Central or South America that has the flavor of pork, but produces twice or more of the meat for the same amount of food that pigs produce.  I can't think of it's name, but it might be an optional meat producer.  Shrimp can be raised in aquariums also.  Might not be as productive as tilapia, but also an option. 

I think a variety of foods produced in various greenhouses on Mars would make for a challenging and rewarding career as a Martian farmer.  I would say probably at least half the habitat space on Mars would have to be dedicated to food production to avoid consumables being imported from earth. 

Later clothing will have to be produced, cotton? flax? synthetic fibers from algae produced petroleums?  So agriculture might need to be scaled up for clothing production after foods.  Either Martian grown or synthetics from Martian resources. 

There will need to be a lot of underground building going on to produce space for living, manufacturing, and agriculture.  This may have to be an ongoing process from day one for a growing colony.  The quicker things are manufactured and grown on Mars the faster the Martian economy can grow. 

Offline Arb

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 553
  • London
  • Liked: 514
  • Likes Given: 433
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #486 on: 02/25/2016 08:02 pm »
I doubt larger livestock would ever be used on Mars. It's debatable that larger livestock are practical on Earth with the amount of resources required to produce the useable calories.

Mars colonists will have to get use to fish, rabbits, and guinea pigs. Maybe chickens because they are small and produce eggs. Steak and bacon can be imported from Earth for special occasions.

I don't see grain production either, considering the amount of area that would take. Stick with algae production.

You are almost certainly mistaken because ... capitalism.

If there are colonists willing to pay for real meat (and there will be) then there will be people willing to rear it. And as rearing meat requires grass and grain that'll happen too.  Eventually.

Ditto bread.

As for chickens, have you any idea how many food products require eggs? My guess is that there will be poultry from very early days.

Offline spacenut

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5181
  • East Alabama
  • Liked: 2587
  • Likes Given: 2895
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #487 on: 02/26/2016 01:07 am »
About 1/2 acre or less of wheat can supply a family of 4 for a year.  Doesn't take much space for wheat actually.  In a greenhouse on Mars 2 or more crops could be grown in a year, since there will be no seasons in a greenhouse.  I don't see larger animals until large scale production of grains is accomplished.  Large herbivores can eat wheat straw, corn stalks, and such.  It isn't absolutely necessary to "fatten them up for slaughter". 

Offline alexterrell

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1747
  • Germany
  • Liked: 184
  • Likes Given: 107
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #488 on: 02/26/2016 09:07 am »
About 1/2 acre or less of wheat can supply a family of 4 for a year.  Doesn't take much space for wheat actually.  In a greenhouse on Mars 2 or more crops could be grown in a year, since there will be no seasons in a greenhouse.  I don't see larger animals until large scale production of grains is accomplished.  Large herbivores can eat wheat straw, corn stalks, and such.  It isn't absolutely necessary to "fatten them up for slaughter". 

The Dara O'Briain program also reported from an indoor city farm in the states (New York I think), where they were growing excellent lettuce under artificial light. Yields are much higher than a farm - just as well.

Whether it's practical to grow grains - I'm not sure. The conversations above still haven't shown how algae can fully grains. As they can produce carbohydrates, it should be possible. But as grains are so cheap on Earth, there isn't much research into it.

Offline AegeanBlue

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 699
  • Raleigh
  • Liked: 263
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #489 on: 02/26/2016 01:48 pm »
Monoculture has a major problem far more immediate than the emergence of allergies: Plant protection. Yes, 10 vats of algae are better than one, but if a pest or disease emerges in one vat there is a very strong probability it will emerge in the other 9. Let us not forget how closed will be the entire Martian biosphere. Polyculture is a necessary solution, algae and higher plants.

So far all the papers I have run into say that algae makes a rather inefficient feed source. Animals require twice as much algae to assimilate the same body weight than a more typical meal of cottonmeal, soybeans, corn or wheat. I doubt that algae for feed is that efficient as a solution when you consider the whole growth chain.

I am pretty sure that we will have animals, including cows, on Mars eventually. When thinking of a bovine farm do not picture the sort of open air grazing animals of the US West or the Argentinian Pampas, think of the multistory apartment complex style dwellings of high intensity European facilities. Mars animal farms will be factory farms, and take into consideration the whole range of things a factory farm requires and causes.

I doubt that that we will have 1/2 acre or 2000 m2 for a family of four on Mars. Wheat has higher yield in hydroponics, but still we would likely need higher yield horticultural crops. What we will definitely have is more than 1 crop per year, either Earth or Mars. Space will be at a premium on a Mars colony, so we will need to optimize the temporal factor, we cannot leave the greenhouse fallow for half the year. As soon as one crop is over, there will most likely follow a feast and then they'll move on to the next crop. Not to mention that it is likely that at the plant nursery the next crop will have already germinated and grown before the previous crop is over, so as to facilitate rapid turnover.

Offline spacenut

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5181
  • East Alabama
  • Liked: 2587
  • Likes Given: 2895
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #490 on: 02/26/2016 02:08 pm »
So once one complete agricultural "city" on Mars is built, another city should be built further away and repeat the process.  That way if there is a disease affecting one city's crop, it wouldn't or shouldn't affect the other's.  I do agree, algae first, then high yield crops in aquaponics set up for tilapia and high yield crops with the recycled water supplying the hydroponic crops.  I didn't know wheat could grow hydroponicly. 

Offline spacenut

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5181
  • East Alabama
  • Liked: 2587
  • Likes Given: 2895
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #491 on: 02/26/2016 02:15 pm »
Also, things learned by growing food like this in confined spaces like on Mars could drastically increase yields and food production on earth.  Seem's like more research and effort by NASA in this area could get more money from congress to try these ideas out in say the high desert areas of southeastern Oregon, southwest Idaho, northern Nevada and northern Utah.  This is a high desert area, cold in winter, plenty of sunlight, very little water. 

Offline Paul451

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3553
  • Australia
  • Liked: 2518
  • Likes Given: 2181
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #492 on: 02/26/2016 06:23 pm »
Animals require twice as much algae to assimilate the same body weight than a more typical meal of cottonmeal, soybeans, corn or wheat.

So you either spend half your biomass on non-seed parts of the plant, or double the biomass to get the same mass of animal protein.

So the issue becomes: What's easier on Mars? Growing plants or growing algae.

Most people think it's plants, because you can "just put up a greenhouse". But as previously discussed, you probably can't. The complications on Mars make it easier to just use a hydroponic grow-room under artificial light.

A few say algae, because you can "just array pipes/tubes on the ground". But like the greenhouse, it will invariable be harder than that.

So what will be easier and use less energy?

Offline Paul451

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3553
  • Australia
  • Liked: 2518
  • Likes Given: 2181
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #493 on: 02/26/2016 06:28 pm »
I had the thought that the tubes used to grow the algae out on the Martian surface could theoretically also serve as the radiators for the base/city. Double duty. Use the waste heat from the base/city to warm the algae water, while still gaining the energy-saving benefits of using Martian sunlight for growth.

However, while there are likely lots of systems that could perform double duty in such a way, I am deeply suspicious of our ability to create self-regulating interdependent systems.

It's like using plants (or algae) to both grow food and recycle oxygen from CO2. The odds that you can perfectly balance the dietary needs with the oxygen needs of the base/city seems unlikely. Particularly when plants are generally more "fussy" than people about the quality of air.

Offline spacenut

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5181
  • East Alabama
  • Liked: 2587
  • Likes Given: 2895
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #494 on: 02/26/2016 07:55 pm »
All these proposals and questions, should be addressed either in the Artics, or in the cold desert regions of earth.  Not only with agriculture, but with ISRU equipment to extract water from the air, especially in desert regions, make oxygen for humans, and even to make CH4.  Energy needs should be monitored for each and everything made or produced. 


Offline Robotbeat

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 39271
  • Minnesota
  • Liked: 25240
  • Likes Given: 12115
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #495 on: 02/27/2016 08:02 pm »
I doubt larger livestock would ever be used on Mars. It's debatable that larger livestock are practical on Earth with the amount of resources required to produce the useable calories.

Mars colonists will have to get use to fish, rabbits, and guinea pigs. Maybe chickens because they are small and produce eggs. Steak and bacon can be imported from Earth for special occasions.

I don't see grain production either, considering the amount of area that would take. Stick with algae production.

You are almost certainly mistaken because ... capitalism.

If there are colonists willing to pay for real meat (and there will be) then there will be people willing to rear it. And as rearing meat requires grass and grain that'll happen too.  Eventually.

Ditto bread.

As for chickens, have you any idea how many food products require eggs? My guess is that there will be poultry from very early days.
You can make eggs from algae. Yup. It's a thing:
http://vegnews.com/articles/page.do?pageId=7069&catId=8

Red meat especially will cost a ridiculous amount of money on Mars. Like, to maintain a grass-fed steer would cost about as much as maintaining half a dozen people in terms of space in terms of life support, habitable volume (an acre of pressurized, lit green space per steer), power, etc. Probably like $1000 per pound or something like that. A little better than shipping it frozen all the way from Earth, but not much.

Far more likely would be feeding algae to cattle. Still really, really expensive, maybe $100 per pound of meat. Maybe for Christmas or something.

People hugely underestimate exactly how expensive meat will be on Mars.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline CuddlyRocket

Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #496 on: 02/27/2016 09:12 pm »
People hugely underestimate exactly how expensive meat will be on Mars.

That will make it desirable!

Offline Robotbeat

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 39271
  • Minnesota
  • Liked: 25240
  • Likes Given: 12115
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #497 on: 02/28/2016 12:04 am »
People hugely underestimate exactly how expensive meat will be on Mars.

That will make it desirable!
...and also irrelevant to "scaling agriculture."
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline AegeanBlue

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 699
  • Raleigh
  • Liked: 263
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #498 on: 02/28/2016 03:50 am »
When we are talking about animals, animals will eat the ENTIRETY of a plant. It is not like people where we will only eat part of the plant and throw away the rest: We harvest and dry the stem and feed it to the animals, we take the cottonseed after the fiber and the oil have been removed and feed the rest to the animals etc. When we are talking about animal feed we use the entirety of the plant (at least above ground), though we will need to change the ratio of how the plant is delivered in order to have a balanced feed. I am pretty sure that said vegan egg may be tasty, there is one problem though: what is the machinery and raw materials required to make that egg? Also eggs are so prevalent today because they are cheaply produced in factory farms, rather than necessary for life. Eggs do have the best protein available, but their use has more to do with their availability. I do see red meat on Mars, eventually, not early.

Offline Paul451

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3553
  • Australia
  • Liked: 2518
  • Likes Given: 2181
Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #499 on: 02/28/2016 06:24 pm »
When we are talking about animals, animals will eat the ENTIRETY of a plant. It is not like people where we will only eat part of the plant and throw away the rest:

Except your original comment compared rates of animal growth from algae feed with rates of growth from seed-meal feed, so that's what I responded to. If you want to use whole-of-plant feed, then you need to use that as the comparison. You can't pick one for one comparison, then pick another for a different part of the comparison.
« Last Edit: 02/28/2016 06:24 pm by Paul451 »

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0