Author Topic: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 1  (Read 640985 times)

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #980 on: 03/21/2018 03:50 pm »
Been a while... Did we ever get a final decision as to whether CC will be the "rental car" or the "taxi" model for both vehicles?
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline woods170

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #981 on: 03/21/2018 05:10 pm »
Been a while... Did we ever get a final decision as to whether CC will be the "rental car" or the "taxi" model for both vehicles?
Rental car for both Crew Dragon and Starliner.

Offline abaddon

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #982 on: 03/21/2018 06:16 pm »
Autonomously piloted rental car ;)

Offline Tomness

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #983 on: 03/21/2018 06:18 pm »
Been a while... Did we ever get a final decision as to whether CC will be the "rental car" or the "taxi" model for both vehicles?
Rental car for both Crew Dragon and Starliner.

There doesn't seem to be any indication that NASA will pay for any rides past the first 6 between them both for ISS
 Post CCtCAP; per life span of ISS being looking to being splashed down in mid 2020s?

Offline woods170

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #984 on: 03/22/2018 07:51 am »
Autonomously piloted rental car ;)

Wilma to Buck: "Do you have manual override capability?"
Buck to Wilma: "I sure have".

Online docmordrid

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #985 on: 03/22/2018 08:29 am »
Autonomously piloted rental car ;)

Wilma to Buck: "Do you have manual override capability?"
Buck to Wilma: "I sure have".

DEORBIT NOW?
« Last Edit: 03/22/2018 08:52 am by docmordrid »
DM

Offline JBF

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #986 on: 03/22/2018 04:21 pm »
Autonomously piloted rental car ;)

Wilma to Buck: "Do you have manual override capability?"
Buck to Wilma: "I sure have".

DEORBIT NOW?
I.E.  get us out of orbit immediately; do not wait for best time.
"In principle, rocket engines are simple, but that’s the last place rocket engines are ever simple." Jeff Bezos

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #987 on: 03/22/2018 04:29 pm »
Does that last one say "Freak Out" ?? xD
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline schaban

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #988 on: 03/22/2018 06:39 pm »
break out
unless that was rhetorical question.

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #989 on: 03/22/2018 07:56 pm »
break out
unless that was rhetorical question.

Kinda fuzzy, hard to read.  :)
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline Kansan52

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #990 on: 03/22/2018 09:27 pm »
The other end says "Cabin Fire". Spooky. Just been reading about Apollo 1.

Offline gongora

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #991 on: 03/30/2018 06:50 pm »
[NASA, March 30 2018] Parachute Testing Lands Partners Closer to Crewed Flight Tests
By Marie Lewis
NASA's John F. Kennedy Space Center

Crew safety is paramount in the return of human spaceflight launches from Florida’s Space Coast, and the latest round of parachute testing is providing valuable data to help industry partners Boeing and SpaceX meet NASA’s requirements for certification.

On March 4, SpaceX performed its 14th overall parachute test supporting Crew Dragon development. This exercise was the first of several planned parachute system qualification tests ahead of the spacecraft’s first crewed flight and resulted in the successful touchdown of Crew Dragon’s parachute system.

During this test, a C-130 aircraft transported the parachute test vehicle, designed to achieve the maximum speeds that Crew Dragon could experience on reentry, over the Mojave Desert in Southern California and dropped the spacecraft from an altitude of 25,000 feet. The test demonstrated an off-nominal, or abnormal, situation, deploying only one of the two drogue chutes and intentionally skipping a deployment stage on one of the four main parachutes, proving a safe landing in such a contingency scenario.

In February, the first in a series of reliability tests of the Boeing flight drogue and main parachute system was conducted by releasing a long, dart-shaped test vehicle from a C-17 aircraft over Yuma, Arizona.  Two more tests are planned using the dart module, as well as three similar reliability tests using a high fidelity capsule simulator designed to simulate the CST-100 Starliner capsule’s exact shape and mass. These three tests involve a giant helium-filled balloon that lifts the capsule over the desert before releasing it at altitudes above 30,000 feet to test parachute deployments and overall system performance.

In both the dart and capsule simulator tests, the test spacecraft are released at various altitudes to test the parachute system at different deployment speeds, aerodynamic loads, and or weight demands. Data collected from each test is fed into computer models to more accurately predict parachute performance and to verify consistency from test to test.

Mark Biesack, a lead NASA engineer at Kennedy Space Center overseeing parachute testing for the agency’s Commercial Crew Program said, “We test the parachutes at many different conditions for nominal entry, ascent abort conditions including a pad abort, and for contingencies, so that we know the chutes can safely deploy in flight and handle the loads.”

SpaceX will conduct its next parachute system test in the coming weeks in the California desert, again using a C-130 to drop the parachute test vehicle from about 25,000 feet. The test will be similar to the one conducted earlier this month, but with a different deployment configuration. The test will intentionally skip deployment of one drogue parachute and one main parachute to further demonstrate SpaceX’s ability to safely land the vehicle in an off-nominal situation. The ongoing testing verifies the safety of the parachute system for our astronauts.

Boeing is scheduled for its third of five planned qualification tests of its parachute system in May, using the same type of helium-filled balloon that will be used in the reliability tests. For the qualification test, the balloon lifts a full-size version of the Starliner spacecraft over the desert in New Mexico before releasing it. The balloon lifts the spacecraft at more than

1,000 feet per minute before it is dropped from an altitude of about 40,000 feet. A choreographed parachute deployment sequence initiates, involving three pilot, two drogue and three main chutes that slow the spacecraft’s descent permitting a safe touchdown.

Both Boeing and SpaceX’s parachute system qualification testing is scheduled to be completed by fall 2018. The partners are targeting the return of human spaceflight from Florida’s Space Coast this year, and are currently scheduled to begin flight tests late this summer.

“The partners are making great strides in testing their respective parachute systems, and the data they are collecting during every test is critical to demonstrating that their systems work as designed,” said Kathy Lueders, Commercial Crew Program Manager at Kennedy Space Center. “NASA is proud of their commitment to safely fly our crew members to the International Space Station and return them home safely.”

NASA’s Orion Program, which is nearing completion of its parachute tests to qualify the exploration-class spacecraft for missions with crew, has provided Commercial Crew Program partners with data and insight from its tests. NASA has matured computer modeling of how the system works in various scenarios and helped partner companies understand certain elements of parachute systems, such as seams and joints, for example. In some cases, NASA’s work has provided enough information for the partners to reduce the need for some developmental parachute tests.

The goal of the Commercial Crew Program is safe, reliable and cost-effective transportation to and from the space station from the United States through a public-private approach.

Image 1:
At left, Boeing conducted the first in a series of parachute reliability tests its Starliner flight drogue and main parachute system Feb. 22, 2018, over Yuma Arizona. Photo Credit: NASA. At right, SpaceX performed its fourteenth overall parachute test supporting Crew Dragon development March 4, 2018, over the Mojave Desert in Southern California. The test demonstrated an off-nominal, or abnormal, situation, deploying only one of the two drogue chutes and three of the four main parachutes. Photo credit: SpaceX

Image 2:
SpaceX performed its fourteenth overall parachute test supporting Crew Dragon Development March 4, 2018, over the Mojave Desert in Southern California. The test demonstrated an off-nominal, or abnormal, situation, deploying only one of the two drogue chutes and intentionally skipping a deployment stage on one of the four main parachutes. Photo credit: SpaceX

Image 3:
Boeing conducted the first in a series of reliability tests of its CST-100 Starliner flight drogue and main parachute system Feb. 22, 2018, over Yuma, Arizona. Photo credit: NASA

Offline gongora

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #992 on: 04/05/2018 09:49 pm »
[NASA] NASA, Boeing May Evolve Flight Test Strategy
Quote
NASA has updated its Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) contract with Boeing, which provides flexibility in its commercial flight tests. Boeing, one of the agency’s two commercial crew partners, approached NASA last year and proposed adding a third crew member on its Crew Flight Test (CFT) to the International Space Station.

The change includes the ability to extend Boeing’s CFT from roughly two weeks to up to six months as well as the training and mission support for a third crew member. Cargo capabilities for the uncrewed and crewed flight tests were also identified.

Exact details of how to best take advantage of the contract modification are under evaluation, but the changes could allow for additional microgravity research, maintenance, and other activities while Starliner is docked to station. Adding a third crew member on Boeing’s flight test could offer NASA an additional opportunity to ensure continued U.S. access to the orbital laboratory.

“This contract modification provides NASA with additional schedule margin if needed,” said William Gerstenmaier, associate administrator, Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate at NASA Headquarters in Washington. “We appreciate Boeing’s willingness to evolve its flight to ensure we have continued access to space for our astronauts. Commercial space transportation to low-Earth orbit from U.S. soil is critical for the agency and the nation.”

The current commercial crew flight schedules provide about six months of margin to begin regular, post-certification crew rotation missions to the International Space Station before NASA’s contracted flights on Soyuz flights end in fall 2019.

“Turning a test flight into more of an operational mission needs careful review by the technical community,” said Gerstenmaier. “For example, the spacecraft capability to support the additional time still needs to be reviewed. Modifying the contract now allows NASA and Boeing an opportunity to tailor the duration to balance the mission needs with vehicle and crew capabilities.”

This would not be the first time NASA has expanded the scope of test flights. NASA had SpaceX carry cargo on its commercial cargo demonstration flight to the International Space Station under the Commercial Orbital Transportation Services (COTS) initiative in 2012, which was not part of the original agreement. As part of its normal operations planning, NASA has assessed multiple scenarios to ensure continued U.S. access to the space station. The agency is working closely with its commercial partners and is preparing for potential schedule adjustments normally experienced during spacecraft development.

“Our partners have made significant progress on the development of their spacecraft, launch vehicle, and ground systems,” said Kathy Lueders, NASA’s Commercial Crew Program manager at Kennedy Space Center in Florida. “Their rigorous testing and analysis are verifying each system performs and reacts as planned as they prepare to safely carry our astronauts to and from the station.”

Boeing and SpaceX plan to fly test missions without crew to the space station this year prior to test flights with a crew onboard. After each company’s test flights, NASA will evaluate the in-flight performance in order to certify the systems and begin regular post-certification crew rotation missions.
« Last Edit: 04/05/2018 09:49 pm by gongora »

Offline sierra tango

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #993 on: 04/06/2018 04:55 pm »
This morning's Wall Street Journal is reporting this change to Boeing's contract as an indication of a potential slip of the CFT into 2020.
Quote
"Thursday’s disclosure by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration suggests a previously planned two-person flight, slated for November 2018,  is now likely to occur in 2019 or 2020"

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #994 on: 04/06/2018 05:56 pm »
Oh for dumb. Not the best time to choose to paint America into a schedule corner, but "stupid from the top down" does like "stupid does" with trade wars.

Simple answer - fly what you have, gather test data on actual not modeled risk, and advance your risk closure process. E.g. typical sound engineering practice.

Ah, but this would have domestic consequences some might fear. A) more funds would go to less favored companies - eew, can't have any of that.

Even worse, B) with our other huge HSF indulgence "going slow" (hydrolox solids launch issues), we need to slow down CC not advance it, so we don't look bad having one happen too far ahead of the other. Fh already made it embarrassing.

How to unsnare out mixed agendas? Well ... one could just do nothing and let crap happen...

But this will likely be unacceptable to read as it's way too touchy for certain delicate feelings on calling out the long obvious direction this has been headed in, minus the nuances / details of navigating the inevitable issue list of any means to establish HSF launch recovery system from scratch as now.  ::) Snowflakes...

add:

A thought occurs - this nonsense has been known about internally by vehicle providers for at least a half year if not more. Against this tableau we've seen one back off of propulsive landing, a commercial lunar adventurer business using same vehicle, and another backfill on US launch abort protection as well as hesitate on new vehicle engine.

If both saw a "slow roll" of CC likely, perhaps those providers might act to mitigate financial risk (they aren't stupid about investing in things that won't happen) by withdrawing resources gradually, under the theory of a "head fake" shutdown of CC to let Orion resume its rightful place as the only American HSF vehicle, then close down ISS and deorbit? Some still have that wet dream.

Which would be nuts (cost/schedule/capability), but no more so than the continual parade of foolishness we've gotten this year, so perhaps fits the same mold? Hey America, didn't you want things "shook up"? Hello?
« Last Edit: 04/06/2018 07:35 pm by Space Ghost 1962 »

Online Comga

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #995 on: 04/06/2018 06:20 pm »
This morning's Wall Street Journal is reporting this change to Boeing's contract as an indication of a potential slip of the CFT into 2020.
Quote
"Thursday’s disclosure by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration suggests a previously planned two-person flight, slated for November 2018,  is now likely to occur in 2019 or 2020"

Chicken and egg

Is Boeing potentially delayed until 2020 to add on a third member and stay for a full six month rotation, or

Does NASA need Boeing to make their CFT into a full six month operational mission with at least one additional crew member because they are delayed into 2020 and past the time when Soyuz rides can be obtained to staff the ISS?

Is there a difference between this and skipping the CFT to go straight to the first Boeing USCV missions with one empty seat?
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline gongora

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #996 on: 04/06/2018 06:40 pm »
This morning's Wall Street Journal is reporting this change to Boeing's contract as an indication of a potential slip of the CFT into 2020.
Quote
"Thursday’s disclosure by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration suggests a previously planned two-person flight, slated for November 2018,  is now likely to occur in 2019 or 2020"

Chicken and egg

Is Boeing potentially delayed until 2020 to add on a third member and stay for a full six month rotation, or

Does NASA need Boeing to make their CFT into a full six month operational mission with at least one additional crew member because they are delayed into 2020 and past the time when Soyuz rides can be obtained to staff the ISS?

Is there a difference between this and skipping the CFT to go straight to the first Boeing USCV missions with one empty seat?

A delay to 2020 would be bad.  Hopefully both providers aren't going to miss the current dates by more than a year.

Skipping the CFT would be much too risky, better to go ahead and do the modified CFT that looks almost exactly like a PCM mission before actually starting the PCM missions  ;)

Offline cwr

Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #997 on: 04/06/2018 06:47 pm »
This morning's Wall Street Journal is reporting this change to Boeing's contract as an indication of a potential slip of the CFT into 2020.
Quote
"Thursday’s disclosure by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration suggests a previously planned two-person flight, slated for November 2018,  is now likely to occur in 2019 or 2020"

Chicken and egg

Is Boeing potentially delayed until 2020 to add on a third member and stay for a full six month rotation, or

Does NASA need Boeing to make their CFT into a full six month operational mission with at least one additional crew member because they are delayed into 2020 and past the time when Soyuz rides can be obtained to staff the ISS?

Is there a difference between this and skipping the CFT to go straight to the first Boeing USCV missions with one empty seat?

Remember the current CFT definition has a crew of:
1 Boeing test pilot
1 NASA Astronaut

I haven't read the text of the new contract but I don't know how the crew plan would be adjusted.

Carl

Offline mme

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #998 on: 04/06/2018 06:55 pm »
This morning's Wall Street Journal is reporting this change to Boeing's contract as an indication of a potential slip of the CFT into 2020.
Quote
"Thursday’s disclosure by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration suggests a previously planned two-person flight, slated for November 2018,  is now likely to occur in 2019 or 2020"

Chicken and egg

Is Boeing potentially delayed until 2020 to add on a third member and stay for a full six month rotation, or

Does NASA need Boeing to make their CFT into a full six month operational mission with at least one additional crew member because they are delayed into 2020 and past the time when Soyuz rides can be obtained to staff the ISS?

Is there a difference between this and skipping the CFT to go straight to the first Boeing USCV missions with one empty seat?

Remember the current CFT definition has a crew of:
1 Boeing test pilot
1 NASA Astronaut

I haven't read the text of the new contract but I don't know how the crew plan would be adjusted.

Carl
Really? Is that true of SX too? My recollection was that SX did not plan to have their own astronaut on board and I assumed it was the same for Boeing.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Online butters

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #999 on: 04/06/2018 06:58 pm »
Has NASA finalized the certification criteria yet?

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