Orion won't be cancelled anyway, it's essential for going BEO.
Quote from: Oli on 12/02/2015 11:02 amOrion won't be cancelled anyway, it's essential for going BEO.I am sure some would think you could do a very nice all-American BEO vehicle based on Dragon. Or CST-100.
Not sure why some people think the SM was outsourced to ESA to protect Orion from cancellation. The contract is only for EM-1.Orion won't be cancelled anyway, it's essential for going BEO.
Quote from: hektor on 12/02/2015 11:15 amQuote from: Oli on 12/02/2015 11:02 amOrion won't be cancelled anyway, it's essential for going BEO.I am sure some would think you could do a very nice all-American BEO vehicle based on Dragon. Or CST-100.... Or the fact that NASA organized commercial crew for access to LEO instead of using Orion.Sure NASA could organize a competition for a BEO capsule, but I'm sure Lockheed would win easily due to the headstart they have.
Quote from: Oli on 12/02/2015 12:17 pmQuote from: hektor on 12/02/2015 11:15 amQuote from: Oli on 12/02/2015 11:02 amOrion won't be cancelled anyway, it's essential for going BEO.I am sure some would think you could do a very nice all-American BEO vehicle based on Dragon. Or CST-100.... Or the fact that NASA organized commercial crew for access to LEO instead of using Orion.Sure NASA could organize a competition for a BEO capsule, but I'm sure Lockheed would win easily due to the headstart they have.Orion was not tasked for LEO transport because it was too big and too heavy. So NASA turned to the commercial world. *They had no choice* There was no American launch vehicle - that could be human rated - capable of lifting it. The hell of it is that Orion was originally designed just that way - so only the Ares could lift it, thus forcing Congress to pay for the Ares. That was Mike Griffin's doing.And if Lockheed could easily win, then why did they decline to bid?
The service module was outsourced to the ESA because NASA had priced itself out of the ability to build it themselves.Bottom line: NASA couldn't build it but without it there would be no Orion. ESA was the only way out of the corner they had painted themselves into.
Quote from: clongton on 12/02/2015 10:17 pmQuote from: Oli on 12/02/2015 12:17 pmQuote from: hektor on 12/02/2015 11:15 amQuote from: Oli on 12/02/2015 11:02 amOrion won't be cancelled anyway, it's essential for going BEO.I am sure some would think you could do a very nice all-American BEO vehicle based on Dragon. Or CST-100.... Or the fact that NASA organized commercial crew for access to LEO instead of using Orion.Sure NASA could organize a competition for a BEO capsule, but I'm sure Lockheed would win easily due to the headstart they have.Orion was not tasked for LEO transport because it was too big and too heavy. So NASA turned to the commercial world. *They had no choice* There was no American launch vehicle - that could be human rated - capable of lifting it. The hell of it is that Orion was originally designed just that way - so only the Ares could lift it, thus forcing Congress to pay for the Ares. That was Mike Griffin's doing.And if Lockheed could easily win, then why did they decline to bid?Orion is big and heavy because it goes to the Moon and back. A Dragon modified for that purpose would be equally big and heavy.
Quote from: Oli on 12/03/2015 01:04 amQuote from: clongton on 12/02/2015 10:17 pmQuote from: Oli on 12/02/2015 12:17 pmQuote from: hektor on 12/02/2015 11:15 amQuote from: Oli on 12/02/2015 11:02 amOrion won't be cancelled anyway, it's essential for going BEO.I am sure some would think you could do a very nice all-American BEO vehicle based on Dragon. Or CST-100.... Or the fact that NASA organized commercial crew for access to LEO instead of using Orion.Sure NASA could organize a competition for a BEO capsule, but I'm sure Lockheed would win easily due to the headstart they have.Orion was not tasked for LEO transport because it was too big and too heavy. So NASA turned to the commercial world. *They had no choice* There was no American launch vehicle - that could be human rated - capable of lifting it. The hell of it is that Orion was originally designed just that way - so only the Ares could lift it, thus forcing Congress to pay for the Ares. That was Mike Griffin's doing.And if Lockheed could easily win, then why did they decline to bid?Orion is big and heavy because it goes to the Moon and back. A Dragon modified for that purpose would be equally big and heavy.Emphasis mine.Very bold assumption for someone who does not actually work for SpaceX.
Orion was built heavy on purpose but it wasn't actually necessary. NASA wanted a capsule that could be used in space for 3 weeks without a habitat. It's also larger than it needs to be which means that it can't be lifted by an Atlas V.
Let's not forget that NASA is not monolithic in thought, and that NASA was originally pursuing a completely different design for Orion when Lockheed Martin was awarded the contract for a delta-winged vehicle.
Quote from: woods170 on 12/03/2015 12:42 pmQuote from: Oli on 12/03/2015 01:04 amQuote from: clongton on 12/02/2015 10:17 pmQuote from: Oli on 12/02/2015 12:17 pmQuote from: hektor on 12/02/2015 11:15 amQuote from: Oli on 12/02/2015 11:02 amOrion won't be cancelled anyway, it's essential for going BEO.I am sure some would think you could do a very nice all-American BEO vehicle based on Dragon. Or CST-100.... Or the fact that NASA organized commercial crew for access to LEO instead of using Orion.Sure NASA could organize a competition for a BEO capsule, but I'm sure Lockheed would win easily due to the headstart they have.Orion was not tasked for LEO transport because it was too big and too heavy. So NASA turned to the commercial world. *They had no choice* There was no American launch vehicle - that could be human rated - capable of lifting it. The hell of it is that Orion was originally designed just that way - so only the Ares could lift it, thus forcing Congress to pay for the Ares. That was Mike Griffin's doing.And if Lockheed could easily win, then why did they decline to bid?Orion is big and heavy because it goes to the Moon and back. A Dragon modified for that purpose would be equally big and heavy.Emphasis mine.Very bold assumption for someone who does not actually work for SpaceX.Why? Assuming equal requirements, is there something that would magically make Dragon less heavy?
You make the mistake of assuming that SpaceX would, under equal requirements, come up with the same behemoth vehicle that NASA forced onto LockMart.
LM winning proposal for CEV was based on a delta winged lifting body. http://www.space.com/1088-florida-hopes-host-cev-construction.html
Quote from: woods170 on 12/03/2015 06:26 pmYou make the mistake of assuming that SpaceX would, under equal requirements, come up with the same behemoth vehicle that NASA forced onto LockMart.I don't get it. So you think NASA forced the "behemoth" on Lockheed but would not force it on SpaceX? What's your argument again?The lunar Dragon from the Evolvable Lunar Architecture by the way is almost as heavy as Orion, all things included, and can only keep a crew of 4 alive for 14 days (not that I trust the study, but its the only one I know of).