Author Topic: Fairing reuse  (Read 974453 times)

Offline mme

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1820 on: 12/04/2018 12:34 am »
It's not yet a "fact" that they can reuse fairings that fell in the water, but may be possible if they retrieve them quickly. Perhaps they will add a coating which adds minimal weight to protect them more.
Agreed. My badly worded point was there is no evidence that SpaceX is giving up on catching the fairings before splashdown.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1821 on: 12/04/2018 01:01 am »
Some quotes from Hans from today's press conference:

Quote
Irene Klotz, Aviation Week: Okay. Thanks very much, appreciate that. And for Hans, two questions. The first is how far off was Mr. Steven from payload fairing half splashdown?

Hans Koenigsmann, SpaceX: Yeah, thank you Irene. So I don't know how much we missed it by on this particular flight this morning. Or this afternoon, rather. But this is actually an older version of the fairing. There's an upgrade that we had. And that upgrade will make it easier for Mr. Steven to find the fairing. But I can't answer your question because I was just running out before I got that. However, I do know that we have some really awesome footage of Mr. Steven on the webcast. So it's definitely worth taking a look at that.

Quote
NASA Social Media: Hi, I've got two questions that came in for Hans on twitter. The first one is, you mentioned an upgraded fairing earlier, do you mean a different upgrade from the one that was used the first time in February on the PAZ mission?

Hans Koenigsmann, SpaceX: I think it is the same upgrade. This is, I could have said it the other way around, that we used an older version instead of that, but I think that is the upgrade. It's mostly related to recovery, nothing on the fairing itself.

I only highlight the above block because that now has to be reconciled with the different number of pressure equalization holes on Fairing 2.0.  Of course Hans could feel such changes are relatively minor compared to the recovery hardware, etc., but it seemed worth pointing out.

Quote
Matt Haskell, The Aerospace Geek: Hi, Matt Haskell with The Aerospace Geek. My question is for Hans. With regards to the fairings, when they don't land in the net, and they land on the salt water softly, as referred to with today's recovery, what is the capability of reusing those? Is it possible to refly those, or is the salt water damage too much?

Hans Koenigsmann, SpaceX: Uh, we're actually looking into this. It depends, we're basically so close now to the place where they go into the water, it's something we can now look closer [at], and I'm not sure what's going to happen with that, but that is certainly a possibility.

Full transcript: https://gist.github.com/theinternetftw/1bf10faf24e5a77e46fad279e8b81f10

Offline Ludus

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1822 on: 12/04/2018 03:14 am »
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-ceo-elon-musk-new-falcon-fairing-reuse-strategy-mr-steven-missed-catch

Teslarati article about new faring approach.

It’s a lot simpler if it works this way. They would have needed a second Mr.Steven to get both halves and would still have missed some.
« Last Edit: 12/06/2018 06:55 am by Ludus »

Offline cambrianera

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1823 on: 12/04/2018 08:26 am »
Add inflatable floaters to fairing: kiss way to minimize wetting and to dampen water impact.
Oh to be young again. . .

Offline AC in NC

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1824 on: 12/04/2018 02:47 pm »
Add inflatable floaters to fairing: kiss way to minimize wetting and to dampen water impact.

Made me think of something like this mickey-mouse MS Paint sketch:

A brown package at the base to pop out the blue floater and a scheme (red) to block salt water/spray/rain (conceptualize it as something analogous to "saran wrap").  Float the fairing with the bottom end kept out of the water with the floater, the top curvature balancing out the other side and the saran wrap sealing the insides from salt water, spray, and rain.

The red "saran wrap" could be integrated with the parafoil perhaps.  Might even be able to obviate all or most of the need of the floater.
« Last Edit: 12/04/2018 02:54 pm by AC in NC »

Offline mme

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1825 on: 12/04/2018 03:33 pm »
[url]https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-ceo-elon-musk-new-falcon-fairing-reuse-strategy-mr-steven-missed-catch/[url]

Teslarati article about new faring approach.

It’s a lot simpler if it works this way. They would have needed a second Mr.Steven to get both halves and would still have missed some.
Beyond Musk saying they could reuse the splashed down fairings, the article is pure speculation.

I don't understand the rush by people to assume that SpaceX is "giving up" catching the fairings. Just the morning of the launch SpaceX tweeted they were going to *try* to catch the fairings. At the CRS-16 presser Hans said they have upgraded recovery hardware that will make it easier for Mr. Steven to catch the hardware and that hardware was *not* on the SSO-A fairings.

Why would they try to catch them if they were giving up? Why would Hans mention better recovery hardware if they were giving up?
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline Jeff Lerner

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1826 on: 12/04/2018 04:26 pm »
Have we ever heard if the helicopter faring drop tests were successful?...I’m not aware of Mr. Stevens ever having a success in snaring a fairing out of the air..test or after a launch....

Offline cambrianera

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1827 on: 12/04/2018 04:38 pm »
[url]https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-ceo-elon-musk-new-falcon-fairing-reuse-strategy-mr-steven-missed-catch/[url]

Teslarati article about new faring approach.

It’s a lot simpler if it works this way. They would have needed a second Mr.Steven to get both halves and would still have missed some.
Beyond Musk saying they could reuse the splashed down fairings, the article is pure speculation.

I don't understand the rush by people to assume that SpaceX is "giving up" catching the fairings. Just the morning of the launch SpaceX tweeted they were going to *try* to catch the fairings. At the CRS-16 presser Hans said they have upgraded recovery hardware that will make it easier for Mr. Steven to catch the hardware and that hardware was *not* on the SSO-A fairings.

Why would they try to catch them if they were giving up? Why would Hans mention better recovery hardware if they were giving up?

The article seems to me an accurate analisys of the situation.
Is it speculation? Yes, of course...
Oh to be young again. . .

Offline Swedish chef

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1828 on: 12/04/2018 04:48 pm »
Why would they try to catch them if they were giving up? Why would Hans mention better recovery hardware if they were giving up?

They could be trying both. If they catch a fairing in the net then one could call it a class 1 fairing and reuse it directly to customer. Those that hit water ought to be good enough for Starlink. Both ways SpaceX saves money.  And after 5-10 uses on Starlink some other customers would probably be interested in the class 2 version if the price is right.

SSO-A was probably a fairing 2.0
https://twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/1069704142573178881

Offline RDMM2081

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1829 on: 12/04/2018 05:08 pm »
[url]https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-ceo-elon-musk-new-falcon-fairing-reuse-strategy-mr-steven-missed-catch/[url]

Teslarati article about new faring approach.

It’s a lot simpler if it works this way. They would have needed a second Mr.Steven to get both halves and would still have missed some.
Beyond Musk saying they could reuse the splashed down fairings, the article is pure speculation.

I don't understand the rush by people to assume that SpaceX is "giving up" catching the fairings. Just the morning of the launch SpaceX tweeted they were going to *try* to catch the fairings. At the CRS-16 presser Hans said they have upgraded recovery hardware that will make it easier for Mr. Steven to catch the hardware and that hardware was *not* on the SSO-A fairings.

Why would they try to catch them if they were giving up? Why would Hans mention better recovery hardware if they were giving up?

The article seems to me an accurate analisys of the situation.
Is it speculation? Yes, of course...

I also believe the assertion that each fairing half weighs in at 800kg is a newer number than the previously commonly quoted "about a ton" number we had before.  Teslarati is usually reliable on details, and when they say a number like this in a published article it seems likely to be a sourced insider tidbit.

Offline mme

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1830 on: 12/04/2018 05:16 pm »
Why would they try to catch them if they were giving up? Why would Hans mention better recovery hardware if they were giving up?

They could be trying both. If they catch a fairing in the net then one could call it a class 1 fairing and reuse it directly to customer. Those that hit water ought to be good enough for Starlink. Both ways SpaceX saves money.  And after 5-10 uses on Starlink some other customers would probably be interested in the class 2 version if the price is right.

SSO-A was probably a fairing 2.0
https://twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/1069704142573178881
I agree with this assessment, trying both. My confusing is with people that think that SX has given up trying to catch them.

My interpretation of Hans' statement was not that SSO-A flew with version 1.0 but that they've been making iterative improvements to 2.0 and the one that flew on SSO-A does not have the latest improvements. I don't expect any two 2.0 fairings have been the exactly same with regard to the recovery hardware and/or software.  In my mind, 1.0 versus 2.0 is a different mold line and more room for recovery hardware. There's no way 2.0's recovery hardware and software are already "frozen."
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline lrk

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1831 on: 12/04/2018 06:49 pm »
Add inflatable floaters to fairing: kiss way to minimize wetting and to dampen water impact.

Made me think of something like this mickey-mouse MS Paint sketch:

A brown package at the base to pop out the blue floater and a scheme (red) to block salt water/spray/rain (conceptualize it as something analogous to "saran wrap").  Float the fairing with the bottom end kept out of the water with the floater, the top curvature balancing out the other side and the saran wrap sealing the insides from salt water, spray, and rain.

The red "saran wrap" could be integrated with the parafoil perhaps.  Might even be able to obviate all or most of the need of the floater.

The bottom of the fairing already narrows at the attachment point, so keeping it out of the water probably isn't an issue.  However some method of sealing the air vents (I don't recall where those are located on Fairing 2.0) to keep out water after landing might be a bigger issue. 

Offline wannamoonbase

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1832 on: 12/04/2018 07:26 pm »
The bottom of the fairing already narrows at the attachment point, so keeping it out of the water probably isn't an issue.  However some method of sealing the air vents (I don't recall where those are located on Fairing 2.0) to keep out water after landing might be a bigger issue. 

I started thinking about that yesterday after EM mentioned they were going to try reusing them after fishing them out.

Could the fairing halves be constructed so that any openings are not on the bottoms but nearer the edges so they are safely out of the water line?
Wildly optimistic prediction, Superheavy recovery on IFT-4 or IFT-5

Offline cambrianera

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1833 on: 12/04/2018 07:38 pm »
Inflatable floaters with a total volume of one cubic meter can keep all the hemi fairing over the water line.
Oh to be young again. . .

Offline wannamoonbase

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1834 on: 12/04/2018 08:11 pm »
Inflatable floaters with a total volume of one cubic meter can keep all the hemi fairing over the water line.

And what shape would that be and how would it attach to the outside of the fairing?

Seems they've resolved the re-entry and control issues, which is very exciting and maybe 90% of the work. 
Wildly optimistic prediction, Superheavy recovery on IFT-4 or IFT-5

Offline abaddon

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1835 on: 12/04/2018 09:26 pm »
This was the v2.0 fairing, IIRC. I'm thinking their exterior is more hardened to salt water than the older fairings.
Believe I read elsewhere on NSF this was Fairing 1.0.  Someone from SpaceX indicated that the recovery package is more capable in 2.0 in comparison.

[EDIT] And that's why I should make sure I am caught up before replying... guess it is a bit confused as to what exactly it was.
« Last Edit: 12/04/2018 09:32 pm by abaddon »

Offline cambrianera

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1836 on: 12/05/2018 08:07 am »
Inflatable floaters with a total volume of one cubic meter can keep all the hemi fairing over the water line.

And what shape would that be and how would it attach to the outside of the fairing?

Seems they've resolved the re-entry and control issues, which is very exciting and maybe 90% of the work.

There are a few experts in the field...
« Last Edit: 12/05/2018 08:08 am by cambrianera »
Oh to be young again. . .

Offline brainbit

Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1837 on: 12/05/2018 10:59 am »
There are pictures of MrStevens back in port with both fairing halves.
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2018/12/04/steven-returns-port-falcon-9-fairing/

Offline intrepidpursuit

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1838 on: 12/05/2018 01:31 pm »
My question is, if they can reuse fairing halves even after a dunk, why even bother trying to catch them? It has proven a difficult problem to solve. The only explanation that makes sense to me is that refurb after it drops in the water is still significant enough to pay for the crazy ship.

It seems they are pursuing a less ambitious goal along with a more ambitious goal. Just seems odd to do both and odd that they didn't go for soft landing in water first before going all in on the ship.

Online MaxTeranous

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #1839 on: 12/05/2018 02:50 pm »
My question is, if they can reuse fairing halves even after a dunk, why even bother trying to catch them? It has proven a difficult problem to solve. The only explanation that makes sense to me is that refurb after it drops in the water is still significant enough to pay for the crazy ship.

It seems they are pursuing a less ambitious goal along with a more ambitious goal. Just seems odd to do both and odd that they didn't go for soft landing in water first before going all in on the ship.

This stuff isn't simple and no-one knew the specifics of how fairings would react until they tried. Go for an ambitious goal and see how it works along the way is how SpaceX operates. The "right" answer in the end may prove to be water proofing it abit and fishing them out the water, but either way they need a ship to do it and ship mods are cheap in the grand scheme of things.

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