Author Topic: Fusion with space related aspects thread  (Read 1502665 times)

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4160 on: 07/24/2025 05:44 pm »
Fortune: Nuclear fusion is the tech that could power AI and save the planet—if it ever works

https://fortune.com/2025/05/07/nuclear-fusion-energy-ai-sam-altman-helion-pacific-commonwealth-timelines/

The article pours some cold water on fusion companies' promises of commercial power soon.

Yeah, Helion is a bit behind their original schedule, mainly because of COVID supply chain issues and because (in part because of that, in part because some suppliers were no longer available or could not supply), they had to build a lot more of their components in- house. That includes capacitors (of which they require a certain type) and also the large quartz tubes (largest ever made) that they use for the first walls of their machines. As anyone who knows anything about manufacturing understands, this can cause delays. I think anyone on here is familiar with aggressive timelines and delays. Quite frankly, compared to SpaceX (and many others), Helion is still surprisingly close to their original timeline and that despite the fact that what they are attempting to do is way more difficult in comparison.

Offline Star One

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Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4161 on: 07/30/2025 11:51 am »
I have a suspicion this post actually belongs here and refers to Skunk Works fusion reactor research, what with the whole going over budget, and mention of international partners. I cannot see the US having international partners on a highly classified military aircraft, but I can on a fusion reactor.

Quote
In a news release, Lockheed attributed the reach-forward losses on the aeronautics project to continued design, integration, and test challenges that “had a greater impact on schedule and costs than previously estimated.” The company completed a comprehensive review of the program in the second quarter and made “significant changes to its processes and testing approach,” which in turn resulted in  additional cost and schedule delays.

Taiclet said changes to the program included assigning experts from across the company to improve its performance under a new risk identification and corrective action plan.


“This is a highly classified program that can only be described as [a] game-changing capability for our joint US and international customers, and therefore it is critical that it be successfully fielded,” he said. “With our enhanced oversight of this program and rapid incorporation of lessons learned, we expect to continue to reduce risk over the next few years as we move through the key milestones of this very advanced system.”


Lockheed previously booked a $555 million loss on the same classified aerospace program in the fourth quarter of 2024. At the time, the company cited a recent review of the program, which had found that it would have to spend more money on engineering and integration activities in order to meet upcoming milestones.

https://breakingdefense.com/2025/07/lockheed-records-1-6b-in-losses-mostly-linked-to-continued-strife-on-classified-aero-program/
« Last Edit: 07/30/2025 11:55 am by Star One »

Offline edzieba

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4162 on: 07/30/2025 12:27 pm »
I have a suspicion this post actually belongs here and refers to Skunk Works fusion reactor research, what with the whole going over budget, and mention of international partners. I cannot see the US having international partners on a highly classified military aircraft, but I can on a fusion reactor.

Quote
In a news release, Lockheed attributed the reach-forward losses on the aeronautics project to continued design, integration, and test challenges that “had a greater impact on schedule and costs than previously estimated.” The company completed a comprehensive review of the program in the second quarter and made “significant changes to its processes and testing approach,” which in turn resulted in  additional cost and schedule delays.

Taiclet said changes to the program included assigning experts from across the company to improve its performance under a new risk identification and corrective action plan.


“This is a highly classified program that can only be described as [a] game-changing capability for our joint US and international customers, and therefore it is critical that it be successfully fielded,” he said. “With our enhanced oversight of this program and rapid incorporation of lessons learned, we expect to continue to reduce risk over the next few years as we move through the key milestones of this very advanced system.”


Lockheed previously booked a $555 million loss on the same classified aerospace program in the fourth quarter of 2024. At the time, the company cited a recent review of the program, which had found that it would have to spend more money on engineering and integration activities in order to meet upcoming milestones.

https://breakingdefense.com/2025/07/lockheed-records-1-6b-in-losses-mostly-linked-to-continued-strife-on-classified-aero-program/
That was shuttered years ago.

More likely would be Lockheed's FIA replacement/successor programme. (Some) NRO data products are shared internationally, including imaging from the current (and Lockheed-produced) KH-11 production restart birds, so it meets all the criteria of being a classified aerospace programme with international involvement.

Offline StraumliBlight

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4163 on: 08/12/2025 01:15 pm »
NASA Glenn: Lattice Confinement Fusion [Aug 11]

Note that the Overview presentation is 161 MB.

Offline Vultur

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4164 on: 08/17/2025 06:47 am »
I have to say that while this is really cool, I don't really understand it. It sounds like the individual particle energy/"temperature" is really high while the metal 'lattice' is still cool enough to be solid... but if this were scaled up to generate large amounts of power, wouldn't it melt or vaporize or explode the metal?

Offline rsdavis9

Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4165 on: 08/17/2025 11:04 am »
I have to say that while this is really cool, I don't really understand it. It sounds like the individual particle energy/"temperature" is really high while the metal 'lattice' is still cool enough to be solid... but if this were scaled up to generate large amounts of power, wouldn't it melt or vaporize or explode the metal?

It sounds like "cold fusion" by another name since the "cold fusion" name is now a trigger for fake science.
I always thought there was some chance that "cold fusion" "could" work but all the claims were refuted. Hey that's how science works.
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
Same engines. Design once. Same vehicle. Design once. Reusable. Build once.

Offline Vultur

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4166 on: 08/17/2025 07:52 pm »
Well I think it is still "hot" fusion in terms of energy per particle. This might be more like pyroelectric fusion which I think also involves bombarding a solid target?

But I don't see how you get high energy levels (per mass not per particle) without vaporizing/exploding your solid medium.
« Last Edit: 08/17/2025 07:54 pm by Vultur »

Offline rsdavis9

Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4167 on: 08/17/2025 09:42 pm »
Well I think it is still "hot" fusion in terms of energy per particle. This might be more like pyroelectric fusion which I think also involves bombarding a solid target?

But I don't see how you get high energy levels (per mass not per particle) without vaporizing/exploding your solid medium.

In the article: You need much less energy per particle because the lattice brings the particles closer so more tunneling. Nuclear fusion in the sun happens at a lot lower temperature because of tunneling.
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
Same engines. Design once. Same vehicle. Design once. Reusable. Build once.

Offline Vultur

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4168 on: 08/18/2025 12:11 am »
Well I think it is still "hot" fusion in terms of energy per particle. This might be more like pyroelectric fusion which I think also involves bombarding a solid target?

But I don't see how you get high energy levels (per mass not per particle) without vaporizing/exploding your solid medium.

In the article: You need much less energy per particle because the lattice brings the particles closer so more tunneling. Nuclear fusion in the sun happens at a lot lower temperature because of tunneling.

Yeah, I saw that, but what about output energy? Does keeping the metal solid put a strict limit on how much power you can get (kind of like how NERVA Isp was limited by not melting the reactor core)?

Offline InterestedEngineer

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4169 on: 08/18/2025 01:13 am »
Well I think it is still "hot" fusion in terms of energy per particle. This might be more like pyroelectric fusion which I think also involves bombarding a solid target?

But I don't see how you get high energy levels (per mass not per particle) without vaporizing/exploding your solid medium.

In the article: You need much less energy per particle because the lattice brings the particles closer so more tunneling. Nuclear fusion in the sun happens at a lot lower temperature because of tunneling.

Yeah, I saw that, but what about output energy? Does keeping the metal solid put a strict limit on how much power you can get (kind of like how NERVA Isp was limited by not melting the reactor core)?

Erbium's melting point is 1529 degC, I don't think you are going to have much of a problem running a decent heat engine (Brayton, Stirling, whatever) with it.

You can't actually run it that high without having lattice creep problems or D2 outgassing problems, but 600degC also works well for standard thermal engines and then you can encapsulate the whole thing in Inconel or something that can handle high temperature hydrogen, with a high pressure D2 (to work against outgassing).

Erbium love oxygen, so you might want to have an oxygen sacrifice layer inside somewhere in there.  But it looks like those kind of materials engineering problems are all tractable.

What you don't have yet is energy break even.  The input energy of the electric field or high frequency EM waves is greater than that of the fusion.   That would appear to be the bottleneck problem, not the materials problems.

Offline JulesVerneATV

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4170 on: 10/08/2025 06:33 pm »

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4171 on: 10/24/2025 05:59 am »
Might interest some researchers here:

Helion is launching a 17 million research program for external researches from academia and private enterprise. First round is supposed to be for submissions as soon as January 5th 2026. So not a lot of time to submit your proposals!

https://www.helionenergy.com/hercules/

Offline JulesVerneATV

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4172 on: 12/16/2025 07:30 pm »
AI is making spacecraft propulsion more efficient – and could even lead to nuclear-powered rockets
https://www.space.com/technology/ai-is-making-spacecraft-propulsion-more-efficient-and-could-even-lead-to-nuclear-powered-rockets

Could NASA really put a nuclear reactor on the Moon by 2030?
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/could-nasa-really-put-nuclear-080126998.html

MIT professor Nuno Loureiro killed in shooting at his Brookline, Massachusetts home
https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/nuno-loureiro-brookline-shooting/

Offline JulesVerneATV

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4173 on: 01/09/2026 09:34 pm »

Reactor-grade fusion plasma: First high-precision measurement of potential dynamics
https://phys.org/news/2025-11-reactor-grade-fusion-plasma-high.html

Nuclear Fusion Took Big Leaps in 2025. Here’s What Mattered Most
https://gizmodo.com/nuclear-fusion-took-big-leaps-in-2025-heres-what-mattered-most-2000696767
Quote
The promise of nuclear fusion feels simple. Just as stars fuse hydrogen into heavier elements to produce energy, a fusion reactor generates massive amounts of energy by combining lightweight particles with minimal risk to the environment.

That sounds like the dream scenario for clean energy. That said, the many challenges of nuclear fusion make it seem more like fantasy than reality; fusion is always ten years away, as the joke goes.

Lattice Confinement Fusion
https://www.nasa.gov/glenn/glenn-expertise-space-exploration/lattice-confinement-fusion/
“Scientists are interested in fusion, because it could generate enormous amounts of energy without creating long-lasting radioactive byproducts,” said Dr. Theresa Benyo of NASA’s Glenn Research Center in Cleveland. “However, conventional fusion reactions are difficult to achieve and sustain because they rely on temperatures so extreme to overcome the strong electrostatic repulsion between positively charged nuclei that the process has been impractical.”

Called Lattice Confinement Fusion, the method NASA revealed accomplishes fusion reactions with the fuel (deuterium, a widely available non-radioactive hydrogen isotope composed of a proton, neutron, and electron, and denoted “D”) confined in the space between the atoms of a metal solid. In previous fusion research such as inertial confinement fusion, fuel (such as deuterium/tritium) is compressed to extremely high levels but for only a short, nano-second period of time, when fusion can occur. In magnetic confinement fusion, the fuel is heated in a plasma to temperatures much higher than those at the center of the Sun. In the new method, conditions sufficient for fusion are created in the confines of the metal lattice that is held at ambient temperature. While the metal lattice, loaded with deuterium fuel, may initially appear to be at room temperature, the new method creates an energetic environment inside the lattice where individual atoms achieve equivalent fusion-level kinetic energies.

Quote
“The current findings open a new path for initiating fusion reactions for further study within the scientific community. However, the reaction rates need to be increased substantially to achieve appreciable power levels, which may be possible utilizing various reaction multiplication methods under consideration,” said Glenn’s Dr. Bruce Steinetz, the NASA project principal investigator.

“The key to this discovery has been the talented, multi-disciplinary team that NASA Glenn assembled to investigate temperature anomalies and material transmutations that had been observed with highly deuterated metals,” said Leonard Dudzinski, Chief Technologist for Planetary Science, who supported the research. “We will need that approach to solve significant engineering challenges before a practical application can be designed.

Offline InterestedEngineer

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4174 on: 01/10/2026 07:11 am »

Reactor-grade fusion plasma: First high-precision measurement of potential dynamics
https://phys.org/news/2025-11-reactor-grade-fusion-plasma-high.html

Nuclear Fusion Took Big Leaps in 2025. Here’s What Mattered Most
https://gizmodo.com/nuclear-fusion-took-big-leaps-in-2025-heres-what-mattered-most-2000696767
Quote
The promise of nuclear fusion feels simple. Just as stars fuse hydrogen into heavier elements to produce energy, a fusion reactor generates massive amounts of energy by combining lightweight particles with minimal risk to the environment.

That sounds like the dream scenario for clean energy. That said, the many challenges of nuclear fusion make it seem more like fantasy than reality; fusion is always ten years away, as the joke goes.

Lattice Confinement Fusion
https://www.nasa.gov/glenn/glenn-expertise-space-exploration/lattice-confinement-fusion/
“Scientists are interested in fusion, because it could generate enormous amounts of energy without creating long-lasting radioactive byproducts,” said Dr. Theresa Benyo of NASA’s Glenn Research Center in Cleveland. “However, conventional fusion reactions are difficult to achieve and sustain because they rely on temperatures so extreme to overcome the strong electrostatic repulsion between positively charged nuclei that the process has been impractical.”

Called Lattice Confinement Fusion, the method NASA revealed accomplishes fusion reactions with the fuel (deuterium, a widely available non-radioactive hydrogen isotope composed of a proton, neutron, and electron, and denoted “D”) confined in the space between the atoms of a metal solid. In previous fusion research such as inertial confinement fusion, fuel (such as deuterium/tritium) is compressed to extremely high levels but for only a short, nano-second period of time, when fusion can occur. In magnetic confinement fusion, the fuel is heated in a plasma to temperatures much higher than those at the center of the Sun. In the new method, conditions sufficient for fusion are created in the confines of the metal lattice that is held at ambient temperature. While the metal lattice, loaded with deuterium fuel, may initially appear to be at room temperature, the new method creates an energetic environment inside the lattice where individual atoms achieve equivalent fusion-level kinetic energies.

Quote
“The current findings open a new path for initiating fusion reactions for further study within the scientific community. However, the reaction rates need to be increased substantially to achieve appreciable power levels, which may be possible utilizing various reaction multiplication methods under consideration,” said Glenn’s Dr. Bruce Steinetz, the NASA project principal investigator.

“The key to this discovery has been the talented, multi-disciplinary team that NASA Glenn assembled to investigate temperature anomalies and material transmutations that had been observed with highly deuterated metals,” said Leonard Dudzinski, Chief Technologist for Planetary Science, who supported the research. “We will need that approach to solve significant engineering challenges before a practical application can be designed.

wait so Pons and Fleischmann were right all along?

Offline InterestedEngineer

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #4175 on: 01/10/2026 09:16 pm »

Reactor-grade fusion plasma: First high-precision measurement of potential dynamics
https://phys.org/news/2025-11-reactor-grade-fusion-plasma-high.html

Nuclear Fusion Took Big Leaps in 2025. Here’s What Mattered Most
https://gizmodo.com/nuclear-fusion-took-big-leaps-in-2025-heres-what-mattered-most-2000696767
Quote
The promise of nuclear fusion feels simple. Just as stars fuse hydrogen into heavier elements to produce energy, a fusion reactor generates massive amounts of energy by combining lightweight particles with minimal risk to the environment.

That sounds like the dream scenario for clean energy. That said, the many challenges of nuclear fusion make it seem more like fantasy than reality; fusion is always ten years away, as the joke goes.

Lattice Confinement Fusion
https://www.nasa.gov/glenn/glenn-expertise-space-exploration/lattice-confinement-fusion/
“Scientists are interested in fusion, because it could generate enormous amounts of energy without creating long-lasting radioactive byproducts,” said Dr. Theresa Benyo of NASA’s Glenn Research Center in Cleveland. “However, conventional fusion reactions are difficult to achieve and sustain because they rely on temperatures so extreme to overcome the strong electrostatic repulsion between positively charged nuclei that the process has been impractical.”

Called Lattice Confinement Fusion, the method NASA revealed accomplishes fusion reactions with the fuel (deuterium, a widely available non-radioactive hydrogen isotope composed of a proton, neutron, and electron, and denoted “D”) confined in the space between the atoms of a metal solid. In previous fusion research such as inertial confinement fusion, fuel (such as deuterium/tritium) is compressed to extremely high levels but for only a short, nano-second period of time, when fusion can occur. In magnetic confinement fusion, the fuel is heated in a plasma to temperatures much higher than those at the center of the Sun. In the new method, conditions sufficient for fusion are created in the confines of the metal lattice that is held at ambient temperature. While the metal lattice, loaded with deuterium fuel, may initially appear to be at room temperature, the new method creates an energetic environment inside the lattice where individual atoms achieve equivalent fusion-level kinetic energies.

Quote
“The current findings open a new path for initiating fusion reactions for further study within the scientific community. However, the reaction rates need to be increased substantially to achieve appreciable power levels, which may be possible utilizing various reaction multiplication methods under consideration,” said Glenn’s Dr. Bruce Steinetz, the NASA project principal investigator.

“The key to this discovery has been the talented, multi-disciplinary team that NASA Glenn assembled to investigate temperature anomalies and material transmutations that had been observed with highly deuterated metals,” said Leonard Dudzinski, Chief Technologist for Planetary Science, who supported the research. “We will need that approach to solve significant engineering challenges before a practical application can be designed.

wait so Pons and Fleischmann were right all along?

Upon further reflection and reading their paper, it turns out P&F were wrong, but not completely, as in "D-D fusions happen even at 0.025kev, you just can't measure it"  (.025kev being room temperature).
 
There is a lattice effect in deuterated heavy metals, but it's only equivalent to 4kEv according to their papers and video, a long ways from useful fusion.  Probably no measurable effects until 30-40kev unless you have extremely modern specialized
neutron detectors, so something has to supply the extra 36kev.   Nothing P&F did had that extra supply.

In fact these findings are the best falsification of P&F - you CAN get a fusion catalysis effect from deuterated heavy metals, but it's it's a small effect and an order of magnitude below measurable levels and another order below useful levels.

In this paper, they are supplying 2.9Mev gamma rays, so that'll definitely cause protons to hop the coulomb barrier.  The role of the deuterated metals is to increase the yield of neutrons.

The entire idea of this setup is to have controlled fission of U-238 so that they don't have to launch materials that have radioactive critical mass.

So you need a generator of neutrons that you can control.  Turns out you can control a gamma ray source, and with a gamma ray source you can make neutrons with the method described here, and then you can control fission of U-238 - fast fission.  Similar principle to the hydrogen bomb, where most of the energy comes from neutrons from the fusion stage hitting the third stage, which is U-238 and fissions madly from all those fusion neutrons.

In this case you you can make a precise PID control of the fission reaction, which is really nice and a lot less dangerous than a subcritical mass with control rods.

Whether the gamma ray source can be miniturized and powered from the fission reaction with few or no moving parts is an open question. I'm guessing heat -> electricity converters at 8% efficiency aren't enough to sustain the gamma ray source, so it'll need a stirling engine, which means moving parts.


 

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