What I would like is an extremely lightweight drop tank (20 ton tank 1,200 ton prop???) mated to the LSS as it leaves LEO. I don't see that being feasible short term due to the logistics of getting it in orbit. Plus development, attachment and several other issues. Possibly not even long term as it might not make any sense with Lunar ISRU. Trying to not engage in too much handwavium engineering.
Quote from: LMT on 09/02/2022 07:25 pmIf a tanker had 12-hour turnaround, and it delivered 1/5 of a load, it could fill an inflatable depot for ~ 300 crews each synod, by itself. Otherwise, a fleet of tankers would be needed. E.g., given a 14-day window and preloading of depot tankers at synod start, at least 46 tankers would be needed. Scale up ~ 10x for settlement cargo flights.The obvious idea is to use the Starships themselves as the "depot." This eliminates the entire depot fleet, which is a massive savings.Instead you just transfer the passengers at the last minute. You can use 500 passenger P2P-derived vehicles to do that. This further increases the efficiency of launching within that 14-day window, because each launch serves five Starships instead of one.Delete depots, get taxis.
If a tanker had 12-hour turnaround, and it delivered 1/5 of a load, it could fill an inflatable depot for ~ 300 crews each synod, by itself. Otherwise, a fleet of tankers would be needed. E.g., given a 14-day window and preloading of depot tankers at synod start, at least 46 tankers would be needed. Scale up ~ 10x for settlement cargo flights.
QuoteIf it's extremely light weight, there is less need to actually drop the tank. This becomes roughly equivalent to a stretched Starship with 2400 tonne capacity. I think it would be best to wait until there is a working Starship to see how far the design can be pushed before either scheme is attempted. Note that the current F9 is almost double the mass of V9 v1.0. This does not say that SS can do the same, but it doesn't say it can'tYou triggered this vision of a tankerish Starship launched with extremely extended tanks that reaches orbit empty and with little payload due to extreme stretch. It is docked to the true payload and refueled with 2,400+ tons of propellant for the Lunar mission. A somewhat more feasible method than what I had suggested.
If it's extremely light weight, there is less need to actually drop the tank. This becomes roughly equivalent to a stretched Starship with 2400 tonne capacity. I think it would be best to wait until there is a working Starship to see how far the design can be pushed before either scheme is attempted. Note that the current F9 is almost double the mass of V9 v1.0. This does not say that SS can do the same, but it doesn't say it can't
There are sharply diminishing returns to adding more propellant. . . . Instead of just blindly throwing prop at Starship, you need to ask what you're trying to achieve. When you narrow it down to a variety of round-trip cislunar missions and one-way Mars missions, I haven't found a case where stretching the tanks past 1500t helps (although that extra 300t helps a lot, just because of how the delta-v budget to and from cislunar works out), nor have I found any cases where pusher/depot, tandem burns, or even drop tanks help very much.
Quote from: TheRadicalModerate on 10/05/2022 04:53 amThere are sharply diminishing returns to adding more propellant. . . . Instead of just blindly throwing prop at Starship, you need to ask what you're trying to achieve. When you narrow it down to a variety of round-trip cislunar missions and one-way Mars missions, I haven't found a case where stretching the tanks past 1500t helps (although that extra 300t helps a lot, just because of how the delta-v budget to and from cislunar works out), nor have I found any cases where pusher/depot, tandem burns, or even drop tanks help very much.I find myself thinking that a special cargo "tug" with a solar-powered (or nuclear) ion drive that slowly chugs from LEO to (say) NRHO would be worth it at some point. Yeah, it's slow and not very energy-efficient, but if it could move a full depot in (say) a month or two, that'd probably be well worth it at some point, since, with specific impulse of ~5000s it wouldn't need to be refueled very often.
How many ion engines would you need?
] nor have I found any cases where pusher/depot, tandem burns, or even drop tanks help very much.
Quote from: TheRadicalModerate on 10/05/2022 04:53 amnor have I found any cases where pusher/depot, tandem burns, or even drop tanks help very much.You get free deltaV (~2x) with Oberth maneuvers, so getting fuel into a higher energy orbit (HEEO) effectively doubles Isp.(or alternatively 2.72^2 = 7.4x more fuel).Is why that maneuver is so valuable, and why ion drives are effectively obsolete with orbital refueling.
nor have I found any cases where pusher/depot, tandem burns, or even drop tanks help very much.
Quote from: InterestedEngineer on 10/06/2022 08:37 pmQuote from: TheRadicalModerate on 10/05/2022 04:53 amnor have I found any cases where pusher/depot, tandem burns, or even drop tanks help very much.You get free deltaV (~2x) with Oberth maneuvers, so getting fuel into a higher energy orbit (HEEO) effectively doubles Isp.(or alternatively 2.72^2 = 7.4x more fuel).Is why that maneuver is so valuable, and why ion drives are effectively obsolete with orbital refueling.Well... not really.It's certainly true that if prop were magically to appear in a high-energy eccentric orbit, it's worth a lot more to climb up to that orbit to refuel than to refuel at low energy. But prop doesn't magically appear, at least not until somebody can fling it off the Moon using super-cheap ISRU (aka science fiction). You have to haul it up through the same gravity well as your target Starship.This is not to say that there aren't missions enabled by refueling in HEEO; there are. Getting a full tank of prop at high energy and high eccentricity means that you've got more delta-v to play with at the end of your mission, which is important. But the cost of that mission, in terms of Starship lift tanker launches, doesn't change for using the HEEO.Furthermore, if you're trying to get to some target orbit that requires Δvtarget, and you boost up to an HEEO that requires expending Δvheeo, then to get to the target from the HEEO still requires Δvremainder = Δvtarget - Δvheeo. It can be worse than this if you don't burn at perigee, but it can't be better.This is all fully consistent with the Oberth Effect, but there's no free lunch, unless you're falling into a gravity well that you didn't pay to get out of in the first place.My recommendation: Use vis-viva and you'll never go wrong.
I find myself thinking that a special cargo "tug" with a solar-powered (or nuclear) ion drive that slowly chugs from LEO to (say) NRHO would be worth it at some point. Yeah, it's slow and not very energy-efficient, but if it could move a full depot in (say) a month or two, that'd probably be well worth it at some point, since, with specific impulse of ~5000s it wouldn't need to be refueled very often.
Quote from: Greg Hullender on 10/05/2022 04:03 pmI find myself thinking that a special cargo "tug" with a solar-powered (or nuclear) ion drive that slowly chugs from LEO to (say) NRHO would be worth it at some point. Yeah, it's slow and not very energy-efficient, but if it could move a full depot in (say) a month or two, that'd probably be well worth it at some point, since, with specific impulse of ~5000s it wouldn't need to be refueled very often.In addition to the large solar panels as LMT pointed out, the propellant costs for your electrical engines are likely to be rather large.Delta-v for trans-lunar injection from LEO is 3.2 km/s, if you are doing an impulsive maneuver (i.e. a short, high-thrust burn). For a low-thrust continous burn over a two month period, we are talking about roughly double the Δv. Let's be generous and say 6 km/s. To accelerate a 1500 tonne craft by 6 km/s using engines with specific impulse of 5000 s, requires mprop = mfinal * (eΔv / (Isp*g₀) - 1) = = 1500 t * (e6 km/s / 49 km/s - 1) ≈ ≈ 195 tonnepropellant.Most ion engines use xenon as propellant. I only found xenon prices from 1999 in a quick search, but then xenon cost $1800/kg when buying in small quantites, so the propellant cost for a single such delivery would be about $350M. And unfortunately we are unlikely to get a quantity discount, because 195 tonnes is several years worth of xenon production (we produce roughly 50 tonnes per year), so we are likely to drive up the world prices quite significantly.Krypton is another viable propellant for ion engines. SpaceX use that for Starlink, because it is so much cheaper than xenon. The disadvantage is that you need more electrical power for the same thrust, but we can ignore that for this analysis. Back in 1999, krypton cost $290/kg, so 195 tonnes would cost us $56M. And krypton is much more abundant than xenon, so we might not affect the world prices much. At least as long as we only do a very small handful of such 1500t deliveries every year. We are still talking about maybe $20M in just the cost of krypton propellant, so even with krypton, electric propulsion might not be much of a win for this application...
It's even worse. The static mass of a modern X3 ion thruster is 561kg/engine (including the required energy source/sink), which can only supply 35M Newton-seconds of propellant momentum and 626GJ of energy over 45 days. A Raptor 2, OTOH, only weighs twice that amount and supplies that energy over 10 minutes at 1.6G Newton-seconds of propellant momentum. That's 20 times the momentum efficiency of the X3 thruster.Most of the mass of an ion drive thruster isn't tossed out the back as fuel, it's a parasitic mass remaining when the fuel is exhausted.
In the era of refueled chemical rockets, ion drives are obsolete for any conceivable use beyond maintaining orbits.
...what about a high Δv mission--to Neptune, say? Do you really think ion drives have no use whatsoever?
The HEEO refuel only costs one additional fully refueled standard Starship (said Starship reusable). You use up so little fuel in the Oberth burn you have enough left over to complete the entire rest of the Moon mission (full round trip).
Which is cheaper than developing a custom depot stuck in Lunar orbit.
That's 2400t of fuel to LEO. How much do the other mission concepts cost in fuel to LEO? Getting fuel to Lunar orbit isn't going to be cheap.
Granted, the "one starship round trip with HEEO refueling" mission concept does require a Starship capable of Lunar landing and an aerobraked return to Earth. Same requirements as Mars, IOTW (but at double the fuel cost).So won't happen with crew until Starship is crew certified.My bet is by 2035 this will be the standard way to get to the Moon. All the other stuff (e.g. Artemis) is a place holder.
Quote from: InterestedEngineer on 10/06/2022 10:00 pmThe HEEO refuel only costs one additional fully refueled standard Starship (said Starship reusable). You use up so little fuel in the Oberth burn you have enough left over to complete the entire rest of the Moon mission (full round trip).You use exactly the same amount of delta-v, irrespective of the energy of the HEEO. If you're trying to get to LEO+3200 and you stop in an LEO+2500 HEEO, then that HEEO to LEO+3200 costs 700m/s. It's simple addition, nothing more--as long as you always burn at perigee.
Quote from: InterestedEngineer on 10/06/2022 10:00 pmYou'll always be the most prop-efficient if you refuel in the lowest energy orbit that still leaves you with enough prop to meet the remaining mission delta-v requirements. Things get weird if no HEEO exists that leaves you with enough prop to finish the mission--that's where something like laddering comes in--but you need a pretty extreme conops for that to happen.When fuel costs $30-80/kg, "prop efficient" is a minor consideration.Completing a mission with the least cost, including development costs of custom components, is the most important metric. Reliability is another important metric, and doing almost the same thing hundreds of times is far more reliable than almost any custom component.
You'll always be the most prop-efficient if you refuel in the lowest energy orbit that still leaves you with enough prop to meet the remaining mission delta-v requirements. Things get weird if no HEEO exists that leaves you with enough prop to finish the mission--that's where something like laddering comes in--but you need a pretty extreme conops for that to happen.
Quote from: TheRadicalModerate on 10/07/2022 03:52 amQuote from: InterestedEngineer on 10/06/2022 10:00 pmThe HEEO refuel only costs one additional fully refueled standard Starship (said Starship reusable). You use up so little fuel in the Oberth burn you have enough left over to complete the entire rest of the Moon mission (full round trip).You use exactly the same amount of delta-v, irrespective of the energy of the HEEO. If you're trying to get to LEO+3200 and you stop in an LEO+2500 HEEO, then that HEEO to LEO+3200 costs 700m/s. It's simple addition, nothing more--as long as you always burn at perigee. You need to do C3 calculations, not deltaV calculations.In the end, you end up with far less errors if you always using conservation of momentum and conservation of energy when performing conic section calculations.
1) Option A and B missions have to be as simple as possible, and the LSS itself can't be refueled more than once per mission, nor can it be refueled with crew on board.