Author Topic: Lockheed-Martin unveils potentially major Fusion Reactor progress  (Read 71733 times)

Offline Star One

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I don't think you have any basis for believing this and I am not sure that the comparison with Space X in this case is a valid one, in fact one might almost suspect that your post is more about an unfavourable view of LM & an overtly positive one of Space X than discussing this particular project.
« Last Edit: 10/21/2014 06:25 am by Star One »

Offline rusty

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So anyway, back to the fusion thing -
1) Will Lockheed-Martin's new announcement significantly accelerate the research efforts for magnetic fusion confinement?
2) Will they have any spinoff benefits for other types of fusion research?
Re1) No, there's no attempt at containment or sustained fusion. Their magnetic plasma confinement development, as others have mentioned, isn't groundbreaking as there isn't much left with that science other than adapting it for a specific purpose (ITER, VASIMR, this, etc).
Re2) Yes, because this is a different approach to fusion than all previous attempts;
It uses fission - a neutron source - to initiate the fusion reaction. H-bombs have been doing it for decades but this is the first fusion experiment smart enough to realize the benefits.
It's a pulse design with extended burn. Plenty of garages have accomplished pulse fusion, but what appears to be a simultaneous injection of fuel at ignition creates a much larger burn per cycle.

I suppose with enough time and development this could be become a contained and sustained reaction, but why - They're working towards a commercially viable thermal engine, not a science project. The casing will be large for safety reason (radiation or explosion) so any working fluid won't be affected by thermal pulsing. A pulse design is also a lot safer, simpler and easier to design and operate. Lastly, if you're going to use a neutron source you may as well use it regularly as not using it doesn't save it.

Offline QuantumG

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It uses fission - a neutron source - to initiate the fusion reaction. [..]
It's a pulse design with extended burn.

Where'd ya read this?
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re1) No, there's no attempt at containment or sustained fusion. Their magnetic plasma confinement development, as others have mentioned, isn't groundbreaking as there isn't much left with that science other than adapting it for a specific purpose (ITER, VASIMR, this, etc).
Nothing to do with ITER or VASIMIR. This is more like a combination of Polywell and magnetic mirror. That sort of combination, if it works as advertised is actually rather innovative, even if the individual components are not.

Re2) Yes, because this is a different approach to fusion than all previous attempts;
It uses fission - a neutron source - to initiate the fusion reaction. H-bombs have been doing it for decades but this is the first fusion experiment smart enough to realize the benefits.
It's a pulse design with extended burn. Plenty of garages have accomplished pulse fusion, but what appears to be a simultaneous injection of fuel at ignition creates a much larger burn per cycle.
Fission? Neutron source? Pulsed design? Are you talking about the Lockheed reactor?

Offline SICA Design

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More details published here:

"After surprising the world with the announcement of a new nuclear fusion energy concept with the possibility of fast application at relatively low cost, Lockheed Martin has revealed more detail about the basis of its proposed compact fusion reactor (CFR)"

Read more: http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/news-analysis/new-details-on-compact-fusion-reveal-scale-of-challenge/1019393.article#ixzz3GsrDfsrq


Nothing on fission neutrons... ::)

Offline simonbp

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This is basically a Farnsworth/Polywell-style fusor with a new magnetic field configuration (using 2 coils instead of 6). Polywell always had the issue that they were never able to fully model their configuration (which is why they found it so hard to scale up), but if LM has been able to apply some real supercomputer simulations to the problem, I can believe they have some confidence it could work.

EDIT: Also, LM is using superconducting coils right from the start, while that is something that EMC2 was going to do eventually on Polywell, if they got more money. Insulating the superconductors is going to be tricky, but a problem that has to resolved sooner rather than later.
« Last Edit: 10/22/2014 05:32 pm by simonbp »

Offline simonbp

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The patent applications are enlightening:

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Journals/2014/10/22/p/n/r/US2014301517A1.pdf

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Journals/2014/10/22/e/e/f/US2014301519A1.pdf

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Journals/2014/10/22/y/n/d/espacenetDocument.pdf

There are actually eight co-aligned superconducting coils: the two big interior coils, four outer coils in between the interior coils, and two mirror coils at either end. So, the field geometry is somewhere polywell and FRCs like Tri-Alpha or Helion.

They may use FLiBe as a coollant liquid, which would allow them to breed tritium directly (neutron bombardment of lithium makes tritium).
« Last Edit: 10/22/2014 06:09 pm by simonbp »

Offline Star One

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The patent applications are enlightening:

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Journals/2014/10/22/p/n/r/US2014301517A1.pdf

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Journals/2014/10/22/e/e/f/US2014301519A1.pdf

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Journals/2014/10/22/y/n/d/espacenetDocument.pdf

There are actually eight co-aligned superconducting coils: the two big interior coils, four outer coils in between the interior coils, and two mirror coils at either end. So, the field geometry is somewhere polywell and FRCs like Tri-Alpha or Helion.

They may use FLiBe as a coollant liquid, which would allow them to breed tritium directly (neutron bombardment of lithium makes tritium).

That's mentioned in the article about using a liquid metal coolant. The only nuclear related example I can think of this in propulsion terms was when liquid metal was used in the reactors of some soviet subs.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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That's mentioned in the article about using a liquid metal coolant. The only nuclear related example I can think of this in propulsion terms was when liquid metal was used in the reactors of some soviet subs.
The lithium blanket is commonly used in fusion reactor designs that fuse tritium with deuterium. E.g. ITER uses it as well. The design of the blanket is/was one of the major challenges they have been facing (its a lot more complicated for a torus).

Offline JohnFornaro

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Quote
McGuire says. “The latest is a magnetized ion confinement experiment, and preliminary measurements show the behavior looks like it is working correctly. We are starting with the plasma confinement"

Plasma confinement: hic sunt leones.

(Bold mine)

Didn't they use a magnetic bottle for plasma confinement at the New York World's Fair in 1964?


I wish they'd develop VentureStar instead.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Quote
McGuire says. “The latest is a magnetized ion confinement experiment, and preliminary measurements show the behavior looks like it is working correctly. We are starting with the plasma confinement"

Plasma confinement: hic sunt leones.

(Bold mine)

Didn't they use a magnetic bottle for plasma confinement at the New York World's Fair in 1964?


I wish they'd develop VentureStar instead.
Well, their concept is a bit more than just a magnetic mirror. There is also recirculation and neutral beam injection. This is a combination of multiple concepts.

Offline JohnFornaro

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... magnetized ion confinement ..."

... a magnetic bottle...

Well, their concept is a bit more than just a magnetic mirror. ...

The magnetic bottle confined the plasma in 1964, safely and to the great enjoyment of the spectators..  What is this magnetic mirror you bring to the discussion?

« Last Edit: 10/26/2014 08:11 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline pippin

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A magnetic mirror is how a magnetic bottle is really called. Well, actually a magnetic bottle is an application of the concept of the magnetic mirror. It's the effect the keeps the plasma inside the bottle.
« Last Edit: 10/26/2014 08:25 pm by pippin »

Offline JohnFornaro

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A magnetic mirror is how a magnetic bottle is really called. Well, actually a magnetic bottle is an application of the concept of the magnetic mirror. It's the effect the keeps the plasma inside the bottle.

Back in the day, it was a magnetic bottle.  No need to change terms.  Pluto is a planet.  Brontosaurus trumps Apatosaurus.  As always, fusion is twenty years in the future.
« Last Edit: 10/26/2014 10:41 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline pippin

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It's not a new term. It's the name of the effect. Always has been. Magnetic bottle is an application of that effect.

Offline Avron

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More details published here:

"After surprising the world with the announcement of a new nuclear fusion energy concept with the possibility of fast application at relatively low cost, Lockheed Martin has revealed more detail about the basis of its proposed compact fusion reactor (CFR)"

Read more: http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/news-analysis/new-details-on-compact-fusion-reveal-scale-of-challenge/1019393.article#ixzz3GsrDfsrq


Nothing on fission neutrons... ::)

Its a Vacuum, nothing more .. new trick, I think not

Offline simonbp

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I'm pretty sure they didn't have superconducting coils at the 1964 World's Fair, nor computers capable of simulating intricate magnetic fields.

Again, the better comparison point is Polywell/EMC, except the Skunkworks is much better funded and isn't chasing fantasies of boron fusion.

Offline JohnFornaro

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I'm pretty sure they didn't have superconducting coils at the 1964 World's Fair, nor computers capable of simulating intricate magnetic fields.

Of course they didn't.  I'm simply bringing up the lack of a compelling need to change the terminology.    They managed to make a magnetic bottle to control the Fusion for purposes of a public demonstration.  Fifty years ago, by using a magnetic bottle, they squeezed a small amount of hydrogen to the point of fusing.  And they did it in public.  Every hour on the hour.  Pretty amazing feat, by any telling.

This is simply the half century old context of the current announcement.  What is really needed is for Lockheed's skunk works to make VentureStar a functioning launch vehicle.  That would be a pragmatic use of time talent and treasure.
« Last Edit: 10/27/2014 01:17 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JasonAW3

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I'm pretty sure they didn't have superconducting coils at the 1964 World's Fair, nor computers capable of simulating intricate magnetic fields.

Of course they didn't.  I'm simply bringing up the lack of a compelling need to change the terminology.    They managed to make a magnetic bottle to control the Fusion for purposes of a public demonstration.  Fifty years ago, by using a magnetic bottle, they squeezed a small amount of hydrogen to the point of fusing.  And they did it in public.  Every hour on the hour.  Pretty amazing feat, by any telling.

This is simply the helf century old context of the current announcement.  What is really needed is for Lockheed's skunk works to make VentureStar a functioning launch vehicle.  That would be a pragmatic use of time talent and treasure.

John,

    Could you provide me a link to this info?  I've followed Lockheed since before they became LockMart, and I never even heard a whiff about them doing a demo fuser in 1964!

     Not saying it's not true, but it would go a LONG way to explaining why Lockheed Skunkworks are certain that they can have a working prototype in ten years.  (Because, more than likely, they've had on for a few decades and only now figured out how to make them cheap enough for commercial use).

My God!  It's full of universes!

Offline JohnFornaro

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I'm pretty sure they didn't have superconducting coils at the 1964 World's Fair, nor computers capable of simulating intricate magnetic fields.

Of course they didn't. ...

John, could you provide me a link to this info? ...

Jason:

"They", referring to the experimentors from General Electric at the 1964 World's Fair.  Pretty sophisticated for 1964.

I was only ten, going on eleven at the time.  I freely admit to not knowing everything then, or even now.

http://www.nywf64.com/genele08.shtml
« Last Edit: 10/27/2014 02:19 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

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