Author Topic: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017  (Read 63014 times)

Offline DarkenedOne

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #60 on: 12/13/2017 03:02 pm »
Was it just me or was the rocket take off surprisingly slow?

It really surprised me because I have ever seen a rocket take off  with such low acceleration.  I understand that they are aiming for a good passenger experience, so they would want to keep the G forces to a minimum.  Slow acceleration would explain why the capsule did not reach the altitude that it did before.  Personally I would think that moderate G-forces would give the system greater attraction.  I would think that the acceleration of the Shuttle which experienced a max G force of 3 would be acceptable. 

What do you guys think?  What would you consider to be an acceptable G force?

Offline IRobot

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #61 on: 12/13/2017 03:18 pm »
Landing seems one or more iterations behind SpaceX. Very slow, lots of fuel burn and a slight jump after landing.
Good enough for suborbital space tourism (they seem to have excess fuel), but a waste of fuel for orbital missions.

Offline Comga

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #62 on: 12/13/2017 03:34 pm »
Beyond photos, one thing I would like to know, once they reduce the data, is the “hang time”.
Perhaps a plot, preferably logarithmic, of the acceleration vs time.
From 1 to >>1 to <<1 to>1 and back to 1.
How long is the “zero gee” part of the flight?
How close to zero does it get?
Are there any hints in the abbreviated video?
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline Darkseraph

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #63 on: 12/13/2017 03:40 pm »
Landing seems one or more iterations behind SpaceX. Very slow, lots of fuel burn and a slight jump after landing.
Good enough for suborbital space tourism (they seem to have excess fuel), but a waste of fuel for orbital missions.

Or they have healthy margins built into the system, using a more efficient fuel and far better throttle capabilties. Their methodology so far seems to be to overbuild systems with redundancy so that they are robust and won't be destroyed in some of the hillarious ways featured in SpaceX's recent blooper reel. As enjoyable a spectacle as it is to watch, it doesn't pay the bills to explode or pancake boosters on the pad. 
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." R.P.Feynman

Offline GWH

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #64 on: 12/13/2017 03:46 pm »
Interesting way to use social media:
Put out mandatory NOTAM, knowing notice of your intent to fly will get out & be discussed.
Fly and land rocket & capsule, say nothing.
As rumours and speculation about whether or not there were issues say absolutely nothing.
Then, late in the evening when social media is in the middle of a frenzy about Alabama release a short video declaring mission success & brag about big windows. Don't show a view from the windows. Disingenuously dub in a voice over "live from west Texas".  Don't say or show anything that differentiates this test and video from the previous tests other than "next generation".
Done.

Bold strategy.
« Last Edit: 12/13/2017 03:54 pm by GWH »

Offline IRobot

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #65 on: 12/13/2017 03:49 pm »
Landing seems one or more iterations behind SpaceX. Very slow, lots of fuel burn and a slight jump after landing.
Good enough for suborbital space tourism (they seem to have excess fuel), but a waste of fuel for orbital missions.

Or they have healthy margins built into the system, using a more efficient fuel and far better throttle capabilties. Their methodology so far seems to be to overbuild systems with redundancy so that they are robust

You can have healthy margins built into Falcon 9. But then you don't launch those big birds into GTO.

and won't be destroyed in some of the hillarious ways featured in SpaceX's recent blooper reel. As enjoyable a spectacle as it is to watch, it doesn't pay the bills to explode or pancake boosters on the pad.
My comment is that BE algorithm/mechanics looks grasshopper-like. Falcon 9 goes for a suicidal burn and quite successfully.  I don't understand your comment regarding "SpaceX's recent blooper reel". They have been extremely successful this past 1.5 years, beyond expectations. If not mistaken, 15 landings in a row!

Offline Jim Davis

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #66 on: 12/13/2017 04:01 pm »
I still maintain that it's quite irrelevant whether I'll fly to 80km, 90 km, 99 km or just above 100 km. For the sake of experience and enterntainment, it doesn't matter too much.

Just out of curiosity, at what point would it matter to you? 50 km? 25 km? 10 km? Lower yet?

Offline Darkseraph

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #67 on: 12/13/2017 04:13 pm »
Landing seems one or more iterations behind SpaceX. Very slow, lots of fuel burn and a slight jump after landing.
Good enough for suborbital space tourism (they seem to have excess fuel), but a waste of fuel for orbital missions.

Or they have healthy margins built into the system, using a more efficient fuel and far better throttle capabilties. Their methodology so far seems to be to overbuild systems with redundancy so that they are robust

You can have healthy margins built into Falcon 9. But then you don't launch those big birds into GTO.

and won't be destroyed in some of the hillarious ways featured in SpaceX's recent blooper reel. As enjoyable a spectacle as it is to watch, it doesn't pay the bills to explode or pancake boosters on the pad.
My comment is that BE algorithm/mechanics looks grasshopper-like. Falcon 9 goes for a suicidal burn and quite successfully.  I don't understand your comment regarding "SpaceX's recent blooper reel". They have been extremely successful this past 1.5 years, beyond expectations. If not mistaken, 15 landings in a row!


SpaceX released a video not so long ago catalogueing their early attempts to achieve and refine landing of stages, with lots of explosions and mishaps. The Falcon 9 lands how it does by necessity. It has to come down immediately or run out of propellant and spectacularly crash. New Shepard can perform its designed mission with extra propellant to hover and adjust on landing. That capability to make small refinements in position will also be important for Blue Moon where craft have to land on unprepared surfaces.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." R.P.Feynman

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #68 on: 12/13/2017 04:17 pm »
Congrats on a great flight, well done! 8)
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline launchwatcher

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #69 on: 12/13/2017 04:19 pm »
Was it just me or was the rocket take off surprisingly slow?

It really surprised me because I have {never?} seen a rocket take off  with such low acceleration.
Go watch a video of a Saturn V liftoff..
Quote
I understand that they are aiming for a good passenger experience, so they would want to keep the G forces to a minimum.  Slow acceleration would explain why the capsule did not reach the altitude that it did before.  Personally I would think that moderate G-forces would give the system greater attraction.  I would think that the acceleration of the Shuttle which experienced a max G force of 3 would be acceptable. 
Acceleration increases as you burn off fuel; the initial acceleration off the pad when tanks are full doesn't constrain the final acceleration when tanks are almost empty.   

The Saturn V is notable for having a relatively low thrust-to-weight ratio at liftoff and thus low initial acceleration.

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #70 on: 12/13/2017 04:23 pm »
Nice to see:

Quote
Congratulations @JeffBezos and @blueorigin team from all at Virgin Galactic. A great flight and another good day for the commercial space industry

https://twitter.com/virgingalactic/status/940895736723656704

Offline tleski

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #71 on: 12/13/2017 04:37 pm »
SpaceX released a video not so long ago catalogueing their early attempts to achieve and refine landing of stages, with lots of explosions and mishaps. The Falcon 9 lands how it does by necessity. It has to come down immediately or run out of propellant and spectacularly crash. New Shepard can perform its designed mission with extra propellant to hover and adjust on landing. That capability to make small refinements in position will also be important for Blue Moon where craft have to land on unprepared surfaces.

It is yet to be seen if they can maintain these kind of margins on orbital flight, which they have to do before aiming for the moon. Unless they want to hitch a ride on a Falcon.

Offline IRobot

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #72 on: 12/13/2017 04:50 pm »
The Falcon 9 lands how it does by necessity. It has to come down immediately or run out of propellant and spectacularly crash. New Shepard can perform its designed mission with extra propellant to hover and adjust on landing. That capability to make small refinements in position will also be important for Blue Moon where craft have to land on unprepared surfaces.
In terms of hovering capabilities, both can do that. The difference is that BE's rocket hasn't shown yet that it can also do a suicidal burn as SpaceX.

For SpaceX, fuel margins are a function of payload and mission, not of landing capabilities. For BE, until demonstrated otherwise, fuel margins are always required.

Online abaddon

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #73 on: 12/13/2017 04:52 pm »
Since this thread is about New Shepard and New Shepard is a suborbital vehicle perhaps we can keep the SpaceX/SaturnV/New Glenn discussions to other threads?

Congratulations to BO on a successful test flight of their new capsule!  I must admit, it looks gorgeous.

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #74 on: 12/13/2017 05:18 pm »
NEWS ADVISORY

Dec. 13, 2017

 

Two Embry-Riddle Research Payloads Traveled to Suborbital Space on Blue Origin’s New Shepard Rocket

Embry-Riddle experiments in space could help with cancer treatment

 DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. ­— For less than four minutes at the edge of space, T-cells from mice in an Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University experiment in partnership with the University of Texas Health Science Center and the Medical University of South Carolina were exposed to microgravity onboard a successful Blue Origin launch in the hope of one day finding new treatments for cancer.

 The payload from Embry-Riddle’s Daytona Beach Campus flew Dec. 12 on Blue Origin’s New Shepard space vehicle to assess how microgravity impacts the cellular processes of T-cells or T-lymphocytes, which develop from stem cells in the bone marrow and are key to the immune system.

 The suborbital rocket, launched from Blue Origin’s West Texas Launch Site, traveled about 62 miles or close to 330,000 feet above Earth carrying two payloads that Embry-Riddle students, faculty and alumni had a big hand in designing and building.

 The second Embry-Riddle payload is studying how microgravity affects genes that play a role in tumor growth. Embry-Riddle’s two experiments were part of 12 commercial, research and educational payloads onboard the first flight of Crew Capsule 2.0, which according to Blue Origin had the largest windows in space.  Known as Mission 7 (M7), the mission also featured the next-generation booster.

 “Today’s flight of New Shepard was a tremendous success. It marks the inaugural flight of our next-generation Crew Capsule as we continue step-by-step progress in our test flight program,” said Bob Smith, CEO, Blue Origin. “Congratulations to the entire Blue Origin team on a job well done and to our payload customers that gathered important data on the suborbital environment. Gradatim Ferociter.”

 In the first Embry-Riddle experiment, the CRExIM (Cell Research Experiment In Microgravity) suborbital NanoLab was a multidisciplinary effort between students and faculty in Embry-Riddle’s Spaceflight Operations degree program and Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering departments, who partnered with other teams from the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio and the Medical University of South Carolina.

 Dr. Pedro Llanos, Embry-Riddle’s assistant professor of Spaceflight Operations and principal investigator on the T-cell research, said the collaborative team worked around the clock for more than a year to prepare the suborbital payload with cultured T-cells.

 The payload of 12 tubes of T-cells, isolated from mice and grown in a laboratory, were exposed to microgravity, with different markers or cytokines added, for about 3.5 minutes. Cytokines are small proteins that are important in cell signaling.

 “These cytokines are not only capable of influencing T-cell behavior, but they are also being used in cancer therapy,” Llanos said. “We already know that microgravity dysregulates the immune system, but the precise mechanisms mediating this effect are not well understood.”

 “The scientific goal of this research is to get insights on how brief exposure to microgravity alters the landscape of different types of immune cells,” added Kristina Andrijauskaite, lead science Ph.D. student for the experiment at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. “Since space allows us to mimic conditions more similar to what happens in the human body as compared to the lab settings, it is great that we have this opportunity to use microgravity as an important research platform.”

 The payload was designed and printed at Embry-Riddle’s Daytona Beach Campus Engineering Physics Propulsion Lab and was housed in a 3D printed structure (10 cm x 10 cm x 20 cm in size). The payload underwent structural testing under different conditions of vibration and motion to assess its survivability. Dr. Sathya Gangadharan, professor of Mechanical Engineering, advised the engineering team with the design of the structure of the payload.

 “I’m very glad that Embry-Riddle is pioneering this new era of cancer cell research from a biomedical engineering perspective and utilizing its past experiences in microgravity to bring solutions to problems that are critical to the medical field,” Gangadharan said.

Embry-Riddle Ph.D. student Vijay Vishal Duraisamy, lead engineering student on the experiment, helped develop the NanoLab structure while also testing and integrating the T-cell payload with other members of the team.

 “This launch gives us important data and insight on the performance aspects of our payload design,” Duraisamy said. “Moreover, as a student it is highly motivating to be a part of a challenging project that involves space applications.”

 Llanos added, “With this suborbital research project, we are nurturing future scientists, technologists, engineers, and mathematicians with enthusiasm to a deeper level that will help them propel their careers.”

 The second experiment involving Embry-Riddle is studying the effect of a brief period of microgravity on the expression of genes that play a role in tumor growth.  Dr. Jennifer Thropp, assistant professor of Graduate Studies for Embry-Riddle’s Daytona Beach Campus and principal investigator on the Suborbital Oncologic Gene Expression payload, said the experiment, which is a collaboration with Grand Canyon University and Thermo Fisher Scientific, consists of two modified flasks that were seeded with osteosarcoma cells.

 Syringes containing RNAlater were attached to each flask and their contents were deployed just before the onset of microgravity (in the case of the experimental control flask) and just after its completion (in the case of the experimental test flask). Now that the mission is complete, the samples will be analyzed via reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) to determine how the expression of the genes has changed.

 Embry-Riddle alumnus Will Jaeger was the primary engineer responsible for the design of the Suborbital Oncologic Gene Expression payload hardware.

 “Previous research has shown that microgravity could potentially have an anti-cancerous effect; however, these studies have been done on orbital and parabolic flights, but not on a suborbital flight,” said Thropp, who is the statistician on this experiment, comparing the results of the suborbital flight to those from previous studies that were conducted during orbital and parabolic flights.

 The New Shepard vertical takeoff and vertical landing vehicle is capable of carrying hundreds of pounds of payloads per flight and will ultimately carry six astronauts to altitudes beyond 100 kilometers, the internationally recognized boundary of space.

 Blue Origin was established by Amazon CEO and founder Jeff Bezos with a bold vision to seed an enduring human presence in space. In November 2015, Blue Origin’s New Shepard rocket became the first to fly to space and return to Earth via vertical landing.

 

Media Contact: Deborah Circelli, Communications Specialist, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, 600 S. Clyde Morris Blvd., Daytona Beach, Fla.; [email protected]; Office: (386) 323-8288

 ABOUT EMBRY-RIDDLE AERONAUTICAL UNIVERSITY

Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, the world’s largest, fully accredited university specializing in aviation and aerospace, is a nonprofit, independent institution offering more than 80 baccalaureate, master’s and Ph.D. degree programs in its colleges of Arts & Sciences, Aviation, Business, Engineering and Security & Intelligence. Embry-Riddle educates students at residential campuses in Daytona Beach, Fla., and Prescott, Ariz., through the Worldwide Campus with more than 125 locations in the United States, Europe, Asia and the Middle East, and through online programs. The university is a major research center, seeking solutions to real-world problems in partnership with the aerospace industry, other universities and government agencies. For more information, visit www.embryriddle.edu, follow us on Twitter (@EmbryRiddle) and facebook.com/EmbryRiddleUniversity, and find expert videos at YouTube.com/EmbryRiddleUniv.
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Offline GWH

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #75 on: 12/13/2017 05:59 pm »
It looks like they have added a 2nd stair tower and interconnecting catwalk since last year.  Presumably for passenger access?  Good signs of being closer to manned flight.

Offline pippin

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #76 on: 12/13/2017 06:08 pm »
Was it just me or was the rocket take off surprisingly slow?

It really surprised me because I have {never?} seen a rocket take off  with such low acceleration.
Go watch a video of a Saturn V liftoff..
Quote
I understand that they are aiming for a good passenger experience, so they would want to keep the G forces to a minimum.  Slow acceleration would explain why the capsule did not reach the altitude that it did before.  Personally I would think that moderate G-forces would give the system greater attraction.  I would think that the acceleration of the Shuttle which experienced a max G force of 3 would be acceptable. 
Acceleration increases as you burn off fuel; the initial acceleration off the pad when tanks are full doesn't constrain the final acceleration when tanks are almost empty.   

The Saturn V is notable for having a relatively low thrust-to-weight ratio at liftoff and thus low initial acceleration.
That’s often been stated but actually not true. Saturn V lifts off pretty fast, it’s just very big so it LOOKS slow until it clears the tower. But that tower is over 100m tall so quite a difference to the much smaller NS lifting off.

I also wondered how low their acceleration must have been because they reported that the booster reached higher velocity on the way down which means average acceleration must have been below 1G. That’s really pretty low.

Offline Svetoslav

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #77 on: 12/13/2017 07:24 pm »
Just out of curiosity, at what point would it matter to you? 50 km? 25 km? 10 km? Lower yet?

I said, when it comes to tourism, the achieved height is secondary to the overall experience.

I had more joy flying with a motorized deltatrike just about 1 km above the surface, compared to a commercial airliner at 10 km above the Earth.

Same goes to suborbital spaceflight. I'll gladly fly in a BO spaceship close to the Karman line with huge windows even if it's 500 meters short to space, rather than in a similar vehicle with lesser luxuries.

Offline mme

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #78 on: 12/13/2017 07:49 pm »
Capsule apogee is a few km less than on some previous flights, though given the payloads - and windows - I imagine somewhat heavier than previous flights. Or have Blue used ballast previously?

I wonder how much margin they have to push things further. It seems to be a long hold down after ignition and a notable hover before landing.

I assume they want to break 100 km with a full complement of passengers. Especially if that's better than SpaceShipTwo can manage ...


I'm not sure that both companies will want to break the 100km barrier. It seems to me that they're comfortable with the 80km boundary used in the USA.
Which would restrict bragging rights of their customers to the USA given that the rest of the world recognizes the Karman line as the boundary of space.
Do VG and Blue have credible competition for 2018? Anything before 2025? I imagine that over time performance will improve but until there is some other game in town this seems like the most space flighty experience available.

And the bragging rights seem pretty tenuous as a customer.  These are amazing machines and useful for microgravity but as far as HSF goes it's a rollercoaster.  I don't mean that in a disparaging way but the accomplishment is being able to afford it and having the courage to ride it.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: New Shepard - 7th test flight - December 12, 2017
« Reply #79 on: 12/13/2017 09:06 pm »
Quote
Dec. 13, 2017

NASA Funds Flight for Space Medical Technology on Blue Origin

Blue Origin successfully launched its New Shepard reusable space vehicle on Dec. 12 carrying a medical technology that could potentially treat chest trauma in a space environment.

The New Shepard reusable vertical takeoff and vertical landing space vehicle was launched with the experimental technology from Blue Origin’s West Texas launch site.  In addition to NASA funding non-government researchers to fly payloads, Blue Origin is a Flight Opportunities program launch provider for government payloads. The Flight Opportunities program, is managed under NASA’s Space Technology Mission Directorate (STMD).

“This flight marks the first of many Flight Opportunities’ flights of payloads with Blue Origin,” said Ryan Dibley, NASA Flight Opportunities campaign manager for Blue Origin. “New Shepard brings new capabilities to the program. This launch platform allows for larger payloads, provides lower launch accelerations, and maintains a sealed pressure environment.”

With NASA funding to support the flight cost, the Evolved Medical Microgravity Suction Device technology was developed by Charles Marsh Cuttino and his team at Orbital Medicine, Inc. in Richmond, Virginia.

The device could potentially assist in treating accidents such as a collapsed lung where air and blood enter the pleural cavity. The payload was constructed in collaboration with the Purdue University of Aeronautics and Astronautics in Indiana.

Currently astronauts and cosmonauts have to return to Earth quickly for medical treatment should an incident arise with chest trauma on the International Space Station. Collapsed lungs are treated on Earth with gravity dependent collectors that will not work in space. 

“My hope is that in the future, this type of medical device will be able to save the life of an astronaut, to continue their mission of exploration,” said Dr. Cuttino. “These types of medical treatment options could be required to explore the Moon and Mars.”

The new technology has a suction system that collects the blood in microgravity and allows for the lungs to continuously inflate as well as store blood for transfusion. The device also has a pneumothorax simulator, which simulates an injured person and shows how the device removes the air and blood to promote healing. 

Orbital Medicine’s suction device technology was selected in Nov. 2015 under a NASA Research Announcement: Space Technology Research and Development, Demonstration and Infusion, or Space Technology REDDI-2015. The device has already flown on parabolic flights with past program funding. 

Through the Flight Opportunities program, STMD selects promising technologies from industry, academia and government for testing on commercial launch vehicles. The Flight Opportunities program is funded by STMD, and managed at NASA's Armstrong Flight Research Center in Edwards, California.

STMD is responsible for developing the crosscutting, pioneering, new technologies and capabilities needed by the agency to achieve its current and future missions.

For more information about the Flight Opportunities Program, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov/directorates/spacetech/flight_opportunities/index.html

For more information about the Space Technology Mission Directorate, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov/spacetech

Leslie Williams
NASA Armstrong Flight Research Center

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-funds-flight-for-space-medical-technology-on-blue-origin

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