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Robotic Spacecraft (Astronomy, Planetary, Earth, Solar/Heliophysics) => Space Science Coverage => Topic started by: bolun on 04/13/2016 08:10 pm

Title: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: bolun on 04/13/2016 08:10 pm
It is time to start a dedicated thread of the joint ESA/Roscomos ExoMars 2018 mission.

- Rover: http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/ExoMars_2018_rover

- Surface Platform: http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Surface_platform

- Landing site: http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Landing_site


Related NSF threads:

- ExoMars 2018 launch thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31587.msg1036221#msg1036221

- ExoMars 2016 thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31368.msg1026217#msg1026217

- ExoMars 2016 launch thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31586.msg1036219#msg1036219

Credits: ESA & Roscosmos/Lavochkin/IKI
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 04/30/2016 03:44 pm
NASA In 2018 ExoMars Rover

The European Space Agency's (ESA) ExoMars program (Exobiology on Mars) is a series of missions designed to understand if life ever existed on Mars. Just as other countries often participate in NASA Mars missions, NASA contributes scientific, engineering, and technical expertise to other world efforts to explore the Red Planet. The second mission in the ExoMars program is the 2018 ExoMars Rover and landing platform, a partnership between ESA and Russia's Federal Space Agency, Roscosmos. It is scheduled for launch in the spring of 2018 and land on Mars nine months later.

NASA's participation in the 2018 ExoMars Rover mission includes providing critical elements to the premier astrobiology instrument on the rover, the Mars Organic Molecule Analyzer (MOMA). By studying organic molecules, the chemical building blocks of life, MOMA is designed to help answer questions about whether life ever existed on Mars, along with its potential origin, evolution, and distribution on the Red Planet.

NASA is providing a mass spectrometer and key electronic components for MOMA. A mass spectrometer is an instrument that identifies the amount and type of chemicals present in a sample. The NASA-provided MOMA mass spectrometer is designed to analyze the types and amounts of chemicals that make up organic and inorganic compounds found in rock and soil samples on Mars.

Updated: January 2016

http://mars.nasa.gov/programmissions/missions/future/exomarsrover2018/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 04/30/2016 08:34 pm
This launch will slip to 2020. Everybody I talk to about it says that it's going to slip, they just have not made the formal announcement yet.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 04/30/2016 09:50 pm
This launch will slip to 2020. Everybody I talk to about it says that it's going to slip, they just have not made the formal announcement yet.

I do wish it well, even if it has to improvise with 2020.  It'll be Russia's big chance to prove itself, ESA's to directly sample Mars, and the best astrobiology attempt since Viking.

Apparently the next 3 Mars years will be quite exciting: ExoMars, the 2020 Rover, the 2022 Orbiter (NeMo I think), and Red Dragon  It'll be like 2003 again!  :)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Quagga on 04/30/2016 10:37 pm
Apparently the next 3 Mars years will be quite exciting: ExoMars, the 2020 Rover, the 2022 Orbiter (NeMo I think), and Red Dragon  It'll be like 2003 again!  :)

Don't forget Insight, Hope, the chinese rover, .... :)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 05/01/2016 02:02 am
Apparently the next 3 Mars years will be quite exciting: ExoMars, the 2020 Rover, the 2022 Orbiter (NeMo I think), and Red Dragon  It'll be like 2003 again!  :)

ExoMars will slip to 2020. Red Dragon will slip to 2020 or later. The 2022 orbiter will probably slip as well due to budgeting issues. InSight will launch in 2018, and China will try a mission in 2020.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 05/01/2016 02:38 am
Apparently the next 3 Mars years will be quite exciting: ExoMars, the 2020 Rover, the 2022 Orbiter (NeMo I think), and Red Dragon  It'll be like 2003 again!  :)

ExoMars will slip to 2020. Red Dragon will slip to 2020 or later. The 2022 orbiter will probably slip as well due to budgeting issues. InSight will launch in 2018, and China will try a mission in 2020.

Should we place bets on what sticks to schedule?  8)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 05/01/2016 07:51 am
Apparently the next 3 Mars years will be quite exciting: ExoMars, the 2020 Rover, the 2022 Orbiter (NeMo I think), and Red Dragon  It'll be like 2003 again!  :)

ExoMars will slip to 2020. Red Dragon will slip to 2020 or later. The 2022 orbiter will probably slip as well due to budgeting issues. InSight will launch in 2018, and China will try a mission in 2020.
I don't know why they even moved the date for Red Dragon forward they might as well left it where it was. Other than trying to obtain headlines.

Is it just money delaying the ExoMars rover or other factors as well?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: vjkane on 05/01/2016 01:48 pm
Apparently the next 3 Mars years will be quite exciting: ExoMars, the 2020 Rover, the 2022 Orbiter (NeMo I think), and Red Dragon  It'll be like 2003 again!  :)

ExoMars will slip to 2020. Red Dragon will slip to 2020 or later. The 2022 orbiter will probably slip as well due to budgeting issues. InSight will launch in 2018, and China will try a mission in 2020.
I don't know why they even moved the date for Red Dragon forward they might as well left it where it was. Other than trying to obtain headlines.

Is it just money delaying the ExoMars rover or other factors as well?
From snippets in press accounts quoting ESA officials, it sounds as if ESA hasn't quite gathered all the funding needed (the total bill is much more than the original program was sold at and this is an optional program under the ESA system, so it's hat in hand) and development is going more slowly than desired because of interface friction between the ESA and Russian design teams. 
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 05/01/2016 05:50 pm
Apparently the next 3 Mars years will be quite exciting: ExoMars, the 2020 Rover, the 2022 Orbiter (NeMo I think), and Red Dragon  It'll be like 2003 again!  :)

ExoMars will slip to 2020. Red Dragon will slip to 2020 or later. The 2022 orbiter will probably slip as well due to budgeting issues. InSight will launch in 2018, and China will try a mission in 2020.
I don't know why they even moved the date for Red Dragon forward they might as well left it where it was. Other than trying to obtain headlines.

Is it just money delaying the ExoMars rover or other factors as well?
From snippets in press accounts quoting ESA officials, it sounds as if ESA hasn't quite gathered all the funding needed (the total bill is much more than the original program was sold at and this is an optional program under the ESA system, so it's hat in hand) and development is going more slowly than desired because of interface friction between the ESA and Russian design teams.

How confident should we be that it will launch in 2020?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 05/01/2016 06:29 pm
How confident should we be that it will launch in 2020?

I have zero information on that. All I know is that everybody I talk to (primarily Americans who have direct insight into the program, but not people who actually work on it) says they are sure of the 2018 slip.

There could also be some benefit to slipping to 2020 because it gives them more time to learn from the current mission and incorporate any necessary changes into the next mission. NASA/JPL/LM have a much bigger experience base and so they can pull off missions every launch window. ESA and the Russians don't have that experience base and so they could possibly use a bit more time.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: baldusi on 05/01/2016 10:07 pm
I would be that it will launch by 2020. 2018 is probably too early both technically and financially. But a successful landing by ExoMars would probably spark a lot of good will in the european public so the politicians sit down and write those tiny checks that these missions desperately need.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Bob Shaw on 05/02/2016 12:03 am
ExoMars will slip to 2020. Red Dragon will slip to 2020 or later. The 2022 orbiter will probably slip as well due to budgeting issues. InSight will launch in 2018, and China will try a mission in 2020.

If RD slips, it will be due to payload issues rather than structural issues - exactly like InSight. We're always up against launch windows, and payloads can be difficult...
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Kryten on 05/02/2016 10:32 am
Looks like the delay is finally official;
Quote
Peter B. de Selding ‏@pbdes  2m2 minutes ago
ESA/Roscosmos: ExoMars 2018 is scrapped. Too little time to prepare; we'll launch the rover in July 2020, the next window.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Alpha_Centauri on 05/02/2016 10:43 am
Yep, official release from ESA;

http://www.esa.int/For_Media/Press_Releases/Second_ExoMars_mission_moves_to_next_launch_opportunity_in_2020

At least this means there is now a choice of landing sites.
Title: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 05/02/2016 11:42 am
Yep, official release from ESA;

http://www.esa.int/For_Media/Press_Releases/Second_ExoMars_mission_moves_to_next_launch_opportunity_in_2020

At least this means there is now a choice of landing sites.

Is the 2020 window more favourable for landing sites then? Otherwise there's always been a choice.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 05/02/2016 11:51 am
Looks like the delay is finally official;
Quote
Peter B. de Selding ‏@pbdes  2m2 minutes ago
ESA/Roscosmos: ExoMars 2018 is scrapped. Too little time to prepare; we'll launch the rover in July 2020, the next window.

See? I have a crystal ball...
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2018 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Dalhousie on 05/02/2016 11:53 am
Yep, official release from ESA;

http://www.esa.int/For_Media/Press_Releases/Second_ExoMars_mission_moves_to_next_launch_opportunity_in_2020

At least this means there is now a choice of landing sites.

There was always a choice of landing sites, prior to October 2014 there were seven under consideration, that month four were down-selected with Oxia Planum inally chosen in October 2015.  Why should this change?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Alpha_Centauri on 05/02/2016 12:58 pm
Is the 2020 window more favourable for landing sites then? Otherwise there's always been a choice.
Yes,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34584214

Quote
However, if the hardware cannot be prepared in time - and there is some doubt that it can be - then the departure will occur in 2020.

If that is the case then scientists and engineers will also consider two other locations - Mawrth Vallis and Aram Dorsum.

The reason is because the angle of the landing ellipse is different in 2020 than in 2018.

http://exploration.esa.int/mars/56622-exomars-2018-landing-site-search-to-narrow/

The conclusion of the Landing Site Selection Working Group was that the engineering risks were too large for Aram Dorsum or Mwarth Vallis in 2018 and hence why Oxia Planum came out the clear winner and no others were selected as a backup, which is the usual practice. The 2020 landing ellipses are more benign for the other sites meaning they could be back in contention.
Title: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 05/02/2016 05:00 pm
Interview with Mr de Groot.

Quote
Two years’ delay means additional costs. What are they?

A: We are trying to minimize them by building the spacecraft as quickly as possible so as not to stretch all the [program development elements] over two years and two months, which would mean maximum extra costs. The subcontractors are pretty much on schedule, so what we plan to do – pending a new, integrated and finalized schedule – is try to build all the models we have to build. Then during the storage period we would no longer have very big teams working for the mission. That will decrease the cost as much as possible.

Do you have a cost estimate?

We are negotiating with the prime contractors on what will be a reasonable price. We were still negotiating the full development contracts for the 2018 mission. We were very close to finalizing this and now this adds a little bit of complexity. That’s why we are trying not to mention any numbers here, because it will not help our negotiations with Airbus Defence and Space, which is responsible for the rover, and with Thales Alenia Space Italia, which is overall program prime contractor.

Quote
Does this have anything to do with Roscosmos budget cuts?

No, it has nothing to do with that. They are having severe budget cuts compared to last year, but this is not impacting ExoMars. ExoMars is still a high priority for them.

http://spacenews.com/q-a-european-russian-space-agencies-delay-2nd-exomars-mission-to-2020/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: savuporo on 05/02/2016 09:08 pm
Interview with Mr de Groot.

Somehow he succeeded not clarifying the primary cause of the delays, while stressing that they are not far behind and the spacecraft will need to go to storage.

"There were too many different parts of the mission that had severe problems with the 2018 schedule. If you have a mission where it’s only one instrument or one component that is creating the problem, you can talk about de-scoping. But here we would have had to de-scope 50 percent of the mission."

50% of what ? Right side wheels and rear thrusters ?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: synchrotron on 05/03/2016 07:49 pm
It's worse than just having some components not ready for integration. Some fundamental systems engineering has not been adequately addressed. Nor have all requirements been unambiguously flowed down to various subsystems. If they want success on this mission, 2020 is too soon.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: denis on 05/03/2016 08:00 pm
Interview with Mr de Groot.

Somehow he succeeded not clarifying the primary cause of the delays, while stressing that they are not far behind and the spacecraft will need to go to storage.

"There were too many different parts of the mission that had severe problems with the 2018 schedule. If you have a mission where it’s only one instrument or one component that is creating the problem, you can talk about de-scoping. But here we would have had to de-scope 50 percent of the mission."

50% of what ? Right side wheels and rear thrusters ?

One of the main reason is in the interview actually:
Quote
We were still negotiating the full development contracts for the 2018 mission. We were very close to finalizing this and now this adds a little bit of complexity. That’s why we are trying not to mention any numbers here, because it will not help our negotiations with Airbus Defence and Space, which is responsible for the rover, and with Thales Alenia Space Italia, which is overall program prime contractor

You don't finalize full implementation contract with the main contractors in early 2016 and hope to launch anything in 2018. That's just not going to happen.

For a long time, ESA has not been able to secure the required budget for what they want to do with this mission. This means that instead of getting full development contracts, contractors only got a series of small contracts for short duration. This means slow and inefficient progress. This situation, added to multiple re-organizations throughout the program (and with the russian participation), means that the overall program (at all levels: rover, landing platform, carrier spacecraft, instruments) is late.


PS: this is at least one of the issues, there might be plenty of others
Title: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 05/03/2016 08:35 pm
New video - ExoMars is on its way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUOP6hd5lhY
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Sam Ho on 05/03/2016 09:17 pm
New video - ExoMars is on its way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUOP6hd5lhY
Incidentally, this video is about ExoMars 2016, not ExoMars 2020.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Dalhousie on 05/04/2016 12:47 am
It's worse than just having some components not ready for integration. Some fundamental systems engineering has not been adequately addressed. Nor have all requirements been unambiguously flowed down to various subsystems. If they want success on this mission, 2020 is too soon.

This is based on what?
Title: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 05/04/2016 06:22 am
New video - ExoMars is on its way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUOP6hd5lhY
Incidentally, this video is about ExoMars 2016, not ExoMars 2020.

I thought this was merged thread on both missions and TBH I don't really see the point of maintaining separate threads especially now this has been delayed. Also I think of ExoMars as a whole project not artificially subdivided.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: synchrotron on 05/04/2016 02:29 pm
It's worse than just having some components not ready for integration. Some fundamental systems engineering has not been adequately addressed. Nor have all requirements been unambiguously flowed down to various subsystems. If they want success on this mission, 2020 is too soon.

This is based on what?

Contracts have been initiated with vendors to provide equipment. However, the mission-level requirements have not been decomposed and allocated to vendors' subsystems. Without doing this, you won't know what performance you'll get at the tail end. Your margins will likely be negative against some of your requirements.

Concurrent systems engineering needs to occur upfront. Not after you've started to cut metal.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Dalhousie on 05/04/2016 10:30 pm
It's worse than just having some components not ready for integration. Some fundamental systems engineering has not been adequately addressed. Nor have all requirements been unambiguously flowed down to various subsystems. If they want success on this mission, 2020 is too soon.

This is based on what?

Contracts have been initiated with vendors to provide equipment. However, the mission-level requirements have not been decomposed and allocated to vendors' subsystems. Without doing this, you won't know what performance you'll get at the tail end. Your margins will likely be negative against some of your requirements.

Concurrent systems engineering needs to occur upfront. Not after you've started to cut metal.

Thanks
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Don2 on 05/06/2016 05:28 am
This is another example of an overambitious aerospace project heading down the well worn path of schedule overruns and cost blowouts. In many ways it is not a lot less ambitious than Curiosity, but the Europeans are telling themselves that they are going to build Exomars for a lot less. A MER class rover would be much more suited to European skills and budgets.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 05/06/2016 05:51 am
This is another example of an overambitious aerospace project heading down the well worn path of schedule overruns and cost blowouts. In many ways it is not a lot less ambitious than Curiosity, but the Europeans are telling themselves that they are going to build Exomars for a lot less. A MER class rover would be much more suited to European skills and budgets.
I think that's kind of an insulting comment to European scientists and engineers, I guess you must have missed successful missions such as Rosetta. This is a complex project and delay was always a possibility, but this is as much an issue with funding by their political masters as anything.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: vjkane on 05/06/2016 05:53 am
This is another example of an overambitious aerospace project heading down the well worn path of schedule overruns and cost blowouts. In many ways it is not a lot less ambitious than Curiosity, but the Europeans are telling themselves that they are going to build Exomars for a lot less. A MER class rover would be much more suited to European skills and budgets.
Before you get too harsh on ESA, what became Curiosity was endorsed by the Decadal Survey as a modest-cost rover technology demonstration mission.

It seems that Mars rover missions have a way of expanding, regardless of the space agency.  NASA has the advantage of a single funding source while ESA, for this voluntary program, must negotiate among a number of member states.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: savuporo on 05/06/2016 06:01 am
Before you get too harsh on ESA, what became Curiosity was endorsed by the Decadal Survey as a modest-cost rover technology demonstration mission.

It seems that Mars rover missions have a way of expanding, regardless of the space agency.  NASA has the advantage of a single funding source while ESA, for this voluntary program, must negotiate among a number of member states.

Not to mention that it was NASA that pulled the rug out from under this mission once already, and still against all odds TGO is on its way to Mars regardless.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Dalhousie on 05/06/2016 06:10 am
Before you get too harsh on ESA, what became Curiosity was endorsed by the Decadal Survey as a modest-cost rover technology demonstration mission.

It seems that Mars rover missions have a way of expanding, regardless of the space agency.  NASA has the advantage of a single funding source while ESA, for this voluntary program, must negotiate among a number of member states.

Not to mention that it was NASA that pulled the rug out from under this mission once already, and still against all odds TGO is on its way to Mars regardless.

Which is why I am sure that ExoMars rover will get there sooner or later.  The obstacles the team have overcome has been amazing.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 05/06/2016 11:07 am
This is another example of an overambitious aerospace project heading down the well worn path of schedule overruns and cost blowouts. In many ways it is not a lot less ambitious than Curiosity, but the Europeans are telling themselves that they are going to build Exomars for a lot less. A MER class rover would be much more suited to European skills and budgets.
Before you get too harsh on ESA, what became Curiosity was endorsed by the Decadal Survey as a modest-cost rover technology demonstration mission.

It seems that Mars rover missions have a way of expanding, regardless of the space agency.  NASA has the advantage of a single funding source while ESA, for this voluntary program, must negotiate among a number of member states.

I don't think that the delays on ExoMars--and keep in mind that a European rover was first proposed a long time ago--have to do with them being overambitious. They just have a difficult funding and management structure and there's really no way to get around that. Given how many countries are involved, I'm surprised that they manage to build these things at all, let alone get them to work so effectively.

As to Curiosity, that's an interesting discussion worthy of another thread. The 2002 Decadal Survey did propose a smaller and less ambitious rover. In fact, it was primarily supposed to be a technology demonstrator, not focused mostly on science. It ended up a lot bigger than it was proposed as, and then it overran and missed its window, costing even more. All that said, I haven't heard anybody in the Mars community criticize the end result. Just about everybody considers Curiosity to be a great spacecraft and the right mission for NASA to fly to Mars.

I think that the one overarching takeaway from all this is that these things are not easy to do. So before immediately jumping to criticism, we should consider that there are big challenges to building these things and the people doing them are often very good at what they do, but what they do is very difficult.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: vjkane on 05/06/2016 02:19 pm
I think that the one overarching takeaway from all this is that these things are not easy to do. So before immediately jumping to criticism, we should consider that there are big challenges to building these things and the people doing them are often very good at what they do, but what they do is very difficult.
A challenge in any mission that involves partners is integrating their management and work flows.  NASA and ESA seem to have worked out how to do this in their joint projects, but they still prefer clean subsystem interfaces (you do the orbiter, you do the probe, you do this instrument, you do that one).  These two agencies have been working together for decades now and their supplies share similar methods and cultures.

I've read that ESA and Russia have found that their management, design, and testing methods are quite different.  Also, given the nature of the landing system, it has proven harded to have clean interfaces.  As a result, progress has been slower as the two organizations work out how to work together productively.  Any future cooperative missions will benefit from these learnings.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 05/06/2016 04:33 pm
I've read that ESA and Russia have found that their management, design, and testing methods are quite different.  Also, given the nature of the landing system, it has proven harded to have clean interfaces.  As a result, progress has been slower as the two organizations work out how to work together productively.  Any future cooperative missions will benefit from these learnings.

I think that's an excellent point--the Russians are a new partner here.

I'd also add that in some cases the U.S. has reduced/canceled cooperation with ESA because of the difficulties. (The cancellation of the original ExoMars deal is NOT what I am referring to.) The reason is that budget cycles and priorities don't line up. An example is the current Europa Clipper mission, where NASA held out an offer to ESA that ESA was not able to fund at this time. I think something similar happened with ESA and the JUICE mission making an offer to NASA. Somebody comes along with a mission opportunity and the potential partner has no money for it, so cooperation does not happen.

Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: vjkane on 05/06/2016 04:38 pm
I think something similar happened with ESA and the JUICE mission making an offer to NASA. Somebody comes along with a mission opportunity and the potential partner has no money for it, so cooperation does not happen.
NASA has committed something like $100M to the JUICE mission to fund a full instrument and contribute hardware for several additional instruments.  This is a fairly small amount of money that largely comes, I believe, from the ramp down in outer planets spending following the planned end of the Cassini mission.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: savuporo on 05/06/2016 04:45 pm
I think that's an excellent point--the Russians are a new partner here.

They are not, entirely ? ESA member and Russians have collaborated on multiple planetary missions before, going back as far as Vega probes.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: vjkane on 05/06/2016 04:52 pm
I think that's an excellent point--the Russians are a new partner here.

They are not, entirely ? ESA member and Russians have collaborated on multiple planetary missions before, going back as far as Vega probes.
I believe that the ExoMars 2020 mission is an order of magnitude more complicated interface than those earlier missions.  Even the 2016 orbiter was much simpler.  ESA built the orbiter, the Russians specific whole instruments, and the Russions supplied the launcher.  All systems with straightforward interfaces.  The 2020 lander system is, as I understand it, a joint development.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: savuporo on 05/06/2016 04:58 pm
I think that's an excellent point--the Russians are a new partner here.

They are not, entirely ? ESA member and Russians have collaborated on multiple planetary missions before, going back as far as Vega probes.
I believe that the ExoMars 2020 mission is an order of magnitude more complicated interface than those earlier missions.  Even the 2016 orbiter was much simpler.  ESA built the orbiter, the Russians specific whole instruments, and the Russions supplied the launcher.  All systems with straightforward interfaces.  The 2020 lander system is, as I understand it, a joint development.

Yeah i totally understand that, i'm pretty intrigued about how AVIO is building and testing the avionics for a Lavochkin built lander exactly, and where exactly is the hand off. So yes interfaces are more complex, but it seems like a gradual progression, not a cold start.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: baldusi on 05/06/2016 07:01 pm
I think that's an excellent point--the Russians are a new partner here.

They are not, entirely ? ESA member and Russians have collaborated on multiple planetary missions before, going back as far as Vega probes.
I believe that the ExoMars 2020 mission is an order of magnitude more complicated interface than those earlier missions.  Even the 2016 orbiter was much simpler.  ESA built the orbiter, the Russians specific whole instruments, and the Russions supplied the launcher.  All systems with straightforward interfaces.  The 2020 lander system is, as I understand it, a joint development.

Yeah i totally understand that, i'm pretty intrigued about how AVIO is building and testing the avionics for a Lavochkin built lander exactly, and where exactly is the hand off. So yes interfaces are more complex, but it seems like a gradual progression, not a cold start.
Didn't AVIO worked with KBKhA on the MIRA engine project? AVIO must have quite a bit of experience there. And Thales and Airbus are usually payload partners on Russian GEO comm sats. So some experience is there. But EDL and rover? That's not the core of European nor current Russian scientists.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Don2 on 05/06/2016 09:55 pm
This is another example of an overambitious aerospace project heading down the well worn path of schedule overruns and cost blowouts. In many ways it is not a lot less ambitious than Curiosity, but the Europeans are telling themselves that they are going to build Exomars for a lot less. A MER class rover would be much more suited to European skills and budgets.
I think that's kind of an insulting comment to European scientists and engineers, I guess you must have missed successful missions such as Rosetta. This is a complex project and delay was always a possibility, but this is as much an issue with funding by their political masters as anything.

I don't see how this is insulting to Europeans. NASA came into the 90s with some left over competency from Viking and Apollo. They built from Pathfinder through Polar Lander, the MER rovers and Phoenix to Curiosity. Rob Manning in his book stated that Curiosity wouldn't have worked without the expertise that NASA had built up on earlier projects. I don't think it is insulting to Europeans to say that they should be trying to build competency in the same way that the US did.

There is also an industrial base issue. Rosetta is a spacecraft that is dependent on electro-optical instrumentation. Weather satellites, earth observing spacecraft and astronomy missions are built with a similar set of skills as Rosetta. The radio and solar panel technologies come from communications spacecraft.

Landers and rovers are a very different breed from orbiters like Rosetta. The instrumentation and sample handling systems for rovers are highly specialized. I can't think of any other industry that uses similar technology. Entry, descent and landing also requires a very specialized set of skills, which are really only shared by ICBM programs and human spaceflight. Apart from a French SLBM program, the Europeans have no expertise in this area.

Building the very specialized industrial skills needed for Mars rovers only really makes sense if it is part of a long term program of rovers and landers. Sometimes NASA gets it right, and if Europe wants successful Mars landings they are going to have to make the same commitment. At present, Exomars appears to be a one off project.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 05/06/2016 10:02 pm
This is another example of an overambitious aerospace project heading down the well worn path of schedule overruns and cost blowouts. In many ways it is not a lot less ambitious than Curiosity, but the Europeans are telling themselves that they are going to build Exomars for a lot less. A MER class rover would be much more suited to European skills and budgets.
I think that's kind of an insulting comment to European scientists and engineers, I guess you must have missed successful missions such as Rosetta. This is a complex project and delay was always a possibility, but this is as much an issue with funding by their political masters as anything.

I don't see how this is insulting to Europeans. NASA came into the 90s with some left over competency from Viking and Apollo. They built from Pathfinder through Polar Lander, the MER rovers and Phoenix to Curiosity. Rob Manning in his book stated that Curiosity wouldn't have worked without the expertise that NASA had built up on earlier projects. I don't think it is insulting to Europeans to say that they should be trying to build competency in the same way that the US did.

There is also an industrial base issue. Rosetta is a spacecraft that is dependent on electro-optical instrumentation. Weather satellites, earth observing spacecraft and astronomy missions are built with a similar set of skills as Rosetta. The radio and solar panel technologies come from communications spacecraft.

Landers and rovers are a very different breed from orbiters like Rosetta. The instrumentation and sample handling systems for rovers are highly specialized. I can't think of any other industry that uses similar technology. Entry, descent and landing also requires a very specialized set of skills, which are really only shared by ICBM programs and human spaceflight. Apart from a French SLBM program, the Europeans have no expertise in this area.

Building the very specialized industrial skills needed for Mars rovers only really makes sense if it is part of a long term program of rovers and landers. Sometimes NASA gets it right, and if Europe wants successful Mars landings they are going to have to make the same commitment. At present, Exomars appears to be a one off project.
You seem to be ignoring the Russian side's long experience in such matters in all of this. Yes they've had troubles in recent times but it does annoy me when people ignore their long history in spaceflight. Doesn't that count for anything?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: savuporo on 05/06/2016 10:06 pm
Landers and rovers are a very different breed from orbiters like Rosetta. The instrumentation and sample handling systems for rovers are highly specialized....

One word: Huygens. Well, actually .. Vega, Philae, Giotto ..
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Dalhousie on 05/06/2016 10:17 pm


Entry, descent and landing also requires a very specialized set of skills, which are really only shared by ICBM programs and human spaceflight. Apart from a French SLBM program, the Europeans have no expertise in this area.

Quite a bit more than that.  There have been programs such as EXPERT, IXV, ARD SHEFEX, and others planetary landers such as Huygens and Beagle 2. The UK has built and tested many ballistic missile warheads over the past 50 years.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Don2 on 05/06/2016 10:20 pm

Before you get too harsh on ESA, what became Curiosity was endorsed by the Decadal Survey as a modest-cost rover technology demonstration mission.

It seems that Mars rover missions have a way of expanding, regardless of the space agency.  NASA has the advantage of a single funding source while ESA, for this voluntary program, must negotiate among a number of member states.

Space science flagships in general have a way of growing in cost and ambition. As a replacement for Hubble, the science community originally asked for a 4m diameter mirror which was cool but not cryogenic. Somehow that morphed into the 6.5m deployable cryogenic monster we have today. At the present, Europa Clipper seems to be in the process of gaining a lander, while Mars 2020 has added a drone.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Don2 on 05/06/2016 10:31 pm

Entry, descent and landing also requires a very specialized set of skills, which are really only shared by ICBM programs and human spaceflight. Apart from a French SLBM program, the Europeans have no expertise in this area.

Quite a bit more than that.  There have been programs such as EXPERT, IXV, ARD SHEFEX, and others planetary landers such as Huygens and Beagle 2. The UK has built and tested many ballistic missile warheads over the past 50 years.

The UK bought the Trident SLBM system off the shelf from the US. The bomb or physics package they build themselves at Aldermaston.  I'm not sure about the re-entry vehicle.

Beagle 2 was a failure so that doesn't count. Huygens was simpler because they could just float down under a parachute and that didn't require an accurate landing.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 05/06/2016 10:45 pm
The UK bought the Trident SLBM system off the shelf from the US. The bomb or physics package they build themselves at Aldermaston.  I'm not sure about the re-entry vehicle.

They spent a huge amount of money developing the Chevaline countermeasures system for Polaris. Gave them a lot of experience, including experience in how things can get a bit out of control in large technology development projects.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 05/06/2016 10:46 pm
while Mars 2020 has added a drone.

I don't think the drone is part of the baseline package. It's still being talked about, not built.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 05/06/2016 10:50 pm
You seem to be ignoring the Russian side's long experience in such matters in all of this. Yes they've had troubles in recent times but it does annoy me when people ignore their long history in spaceflight. Doesn't that count for anything?

Depends upon the area you mean. Launch vehicles and human spacecraft they have excellent stills, although not cutting edge technology in all areas. But for planetary spacecraft they had experience, but they've lost that expertise and skillset, not to mention people (many of whom either left the field entirely or went to work in Europe or the U.S.). That's a problem area, and I imagine that the Europeans are double-checking the Russian work.

This is something that the U.S. science and engineering community is conscious of--if you don't use it, you lose it. After Curiosity landed there were a lot of people pointing out that the U.S. had spent a lot of time and money and effort building up that Mars EDL skillset, and those people would soon be scattered to the four winds working on other projects. If you don't keep the team together and working on something, they go away.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Don2 on 05/06/2016 11:03 pm
You seem to be ignoring the Russian side's long experience in such matters in all of this. Yes they've had troubles in recent times but it does annoy me when people ignore their long history in spaceflight. Doesn't that count for anything?

The Russians are living off of hardware that was developed by previous generations. Engineering competence is a very perishable commodity and today's Russians clearly don't have the the kind of skills that their grandfathers did in the 1960s.

It is a very long time since they had a really successful planetary mission. I think you have to go back to the 1980s Vega missions. Obviously their Soyuz program requires EDL technology, and that performs well, but are they really up to the task of building something new rather than just flying designs that they inherited?

@Blackstar...I remember reading something about Chevaline. Whatever that really was, it was reputedly very costly. It was also a 70s or 80s era program, so whatever skills were built have probably dissipated by now.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Don2 on 05/06/2016 11:37 pm

I've read that ESA and Russia have found that their management, design, and testing methods are quite different.  Also, given the nature of the landing system, it has proven harded to have clean interfaces.  As a result, progress has been slower as the two organizations work out how to work together productively.  Any future cooperative missions will benefit from these learnings.

These rumors about not having clean interfaces between ESA and Russia leaves me wondering about how likely the Schiaparelli lander is to work. Culture clashes and unclear responsibilities are a good recipe for program failure. All it took was a small misunderstanding involving units of measurement between NASA and a contractor to doom the Mars Climate Orbiter.

The European system is messy, but the Europeans have huge experience of working together on programs such as Airbus, Eurofighter and CERN among others. That experience doesn't extend to working with the Russians. There has been very little collaboration between Russia and Europe in the past. I'm struggling to think of any major programs that the two sides have carried out together.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Dalhousie on 05/07/2016 03:55 am

Entry, descent and landing also requires a very specialized set of skills, which are really only shared by ICBM programs and human spaceflight. Apart from a French SLBM program, the Europeans have no expertise in this area.

Quite a bit more than that.  There have been programs such as EXPERT, IXV, ARD SHEFEX, and others planetary landers such as Huygens and Beagle 2. The UK has built and tested many ballistic missile warheads over the past 50 years.

The UK bought the Trident SLBM system off the shelf from the US. The bomb or physics package they build themselves at Aldermaston.  I'm not sure about the re-entry vehicle.

The entry vehicles (Chevaline), was UK developed (as Blackstar said), experience on designing and building entry vehicles in the UK goes back to the early 50s.

Quote
Beagle 2 was a failure so that doesn't count. Huygens was simpler because they could just float down under a parachute and that didn't require an accurate landing.

Failures do count, provided you earn from them.  Any many aspects of Beagle 2 did work, including entry and parachute deployment, perhaps even the landing.  Only the surface deployments seems to have failed.

Huygens may well have been simple, but it is still provide valuable experience in EDL.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: as58 on 05/07/2016 04:38 am
Space science flagships in general have a way of growing in cost and ambition. As a replacement for Hubble, the science community originally asked for a 4m diameter mirror which was cool but not cryogenic. Somehow that morphed into the 6.5m deployable cryogenic monster we have today. At the present, Europa Clipper seems to be in the process of gaining a lander, while Mars 2020 has added a drone.

JWST is passively cooled, so I wouldn't call it cryogenic (Spitzer, on the other hand, was cryogenic during its primary mission). As far as I know the goal was always to make the optics as cold as practicable in a passively cooled telescope.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 05/07/2016 07:23 am
while Mars 2020 has added a drone.

I don't think the drone is part of the baseline package. It's still being talked about, not built.
Anyway it's a helicopter rather than a drone if we are going to be pedantic.:)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 05/07/2016 12:31 pm
while Mars 2020 has added a drone.

I don't think the drone is part of the baseline package. It's still being talked about, not built.
Anyway it's a helicopter rather than a drone if we are going to be pedantic.:)


Oh, don't get me started on the pedantry of this--having worked some aeronautics studies, we were admonished that we should never use "drone" even though that's what everybody knows. Instead it's UAS, or sometimes UAV, or sometimes some other acronym that somebody invented and hopes catches on. I just stopped caring.

Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 05/07/2016 12:59 pm
while Mars 2020 has added a drone.

I don't think the drone is part of the baseline package. It's still being talked about, not built.
Anyway it's a helicopter rather than a drone if we are going to be pedantic.:)


Oh, don't get me started on the pedantry of this--having worked some aeronautics studies, we were admonished that we should never use "drone" even though that's what everybody knows. Instead it's UAS, or sometimes UAV, or sometimes some other acronym that somebody invented and hopes catches on. I just stopped caring.

I hope it does get onto the rover as it sounds an interesting idea.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Don2 on 05/07/2016 08:49 pm
Re: drones (or whatever you call them)


I hope it does get onto the rover as it sounds an interesting idea.

There's a time and a place to be adding capabilities and that is during the instrument selection process. If the budgets had been bigger, scientists would have proposed adding more instruments and the project could have traded the value of those versus the value of adding a drone. Once all that has been done, nothing else should be added. Adding capabilities in an undisciplined way is one of the leading causes of cost overruns.

A drone (or whatever) might not be such a bad idea if it could be built from off the shelf components. As temperatures drop, material properties change. Steels and rubbers become brittle, lubricants freeze and entire classes of engineering materials become unusable. Off the shelf components are designed for earth surface temperatures, which are rarely colder than -20 to - 40 Celsius. Mars gets a lot colder than that. I read somewhere that Li-ion batteries don't like the cold, and those are critical to consumer drone technology.

You might try to keep the drone in a heated hangar, but now you require an energy budget to keep the hangar warm. Electricity that goes to heat the hanger means less electricity available to move the rover.

You already have overhead imagery from Hi-rise. Does a drone really add enough to that to be worth the cost.?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Don2 on 05/07/2016 09:04 pm

JWST is passively cooled, so I wouldn't call it cryogenic (Spitzer, on the other hand, was cryogenic during its primary mission). As far as I know the goal was always to make the optics as cold as practicable in a passively cooled telescope.

This is another example of materials issues caused by low temperatures. A good material to build optical systems out of is silicon carbide. That doesn't work at low temperatures, which forces both JWST and Spitzer to use beryllium. Beryllium is toxic and always seems to be very costly. I definitely view JWST as cryogenic, because it operates at temperatures low enough to require special materials. If they had avoided requirements creep they could have stayed with silicon carbide and JWST would have cost a lot less.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Dalhousie on 05/07/2016 09:12 pm
Re: drones (or whatever you call them)


I hope it does get onto the rover as it sounds an interesting idea.

There's a time and a place to be adding capabilities and that is during the instrument selection process. If the budgets had been bigger, scientists would have proposed adding more instruments and the project could have traded the value of those versus the value of adding a drone. Once all that has been done, nothing else should be added. Adding capabilities in an undisciplined way is one of the leading causes of cost overruns.

A drone (or whatever) might not be such a bad idea if it could be built from off the shelf components. As temperatures drop, material properties change. Steels and rubbers become brittle, lubricants freeze and entire classes of engineering materials become unusable. Off the shelf components are designed for earth surface temperatures, which are rarely colder than -20 to - 40 Celsius. Mars gets a lot colder than that. I read somewhere that Li-ion batteries don't like the cold, and those are critical to consumer drone technology.

You might try to keep the drone in a heated hangar, but now you require an energy budget to keep the hangar warm. Electricity that goes to heat the hanger means less electricity available to move the rover.

You already have overhead imagery from Hi-rise. Does a drone really add enough to that to be worth the cost.?

It should add cm scale resolution and oblique views, both will be very useful.  Are they worth the cost?  Depends what the cost is.  Any ideas?

But this is the ExoMars thread not the 2020 rover.  So we should discuss this elsewhere.....
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: as58 on 05/07/2016 11:47 pm

JWST is passively cooled, so I wouldn't call it cryogenic (Spitzer, on the other hand, was cryogenic during its primary mission). As far as I know the goal was always to make the optics as cold as practicable in a passively cooled telescope.

This is another example of materials issues caused by low temperatures. A good material to build optical systems out of is silicon carbide. That doesn't work at low temperatures, which forces both JWST and Spitzer to use beryllium. Beryllium is toxic and always seems to be very costly. I definitely view JWST as cryogenic, because it operates at temperatures low enough to require special materials. If they had avoided requirements creep they could have stayed with silicon carbide and JWST would have cost a lot less.

Akari and Herschel had SiC mirrors, so low temperature (down to 6 K for Akari) doesn't seem to be a show stopper. Maybe technology for manufacturing large SiC mirrors was not mature enough at the time JWST design was chosen.

I guess this, too, is a discussion that should take place in another thread...
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: baldusi on 05/08/2016 04:33 am
Space science flagships in general have a way of growing in cost and ambition. As a replacement for Hubble, the science community originally asked for a 4m diameter mirror which was cool but not cryogenic. Somehow that morphed into the 6.5m deployable cryogenic monster we have today. At the present, Europa Clipper seems to be in the process of gaining a lander, while Mars 2020 has added a drone.

JWST is passively cooled, so I wouldn't call it cryogenic (Spitzer, on the other hand, was cryogenic during its primary mission). As far as I know the goal was always to make the optics as cold as practicable in a passively cooled telescope.
If JWST is passively cooled, what is the cryocooler for? It has been one of the technological banes of the project. And they intend to work one instrument at 8K or so.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Arcas on 05/08/2016 04:40 am
Space science flagships in general have a way of growing in cost and ambition. As a replacement for Hubble, the science community originally asked for a 4m diameter mirror which was cool but not cryogenic. Somehow that morphed into the 6.5m deployable cryogenic monster we have today. At the present, Europa Clipper seems to be in the process of gaining a lander, while Mars 2020 has added a drone.

JWST is passively cooled, so I wouldn't call it cryogenic (Spitzer, on the other hand, was cryogenic during its primary mission). As far as I know the goal was always to make the optics as cold as practicable in a passively cooled telescope.
If JWST is passively cooled, what is the cryocooler for? It has been one of the technological banes of the project. And they intend to work one instrument at 8K or so.
Passive, as in doesn't consume liquid helium and die in a year
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: as58 on 05/08/2016 07:14 am
Space science flagships in general have a way of growing in cost and ambition. As a replacement for Hubble, the science community originally asked for a 4m diameter mirror which was cool but not cryogenic. Somehow that morphed into the 6.5m deployable cryogenic monster we have today. At the present, Europa Clipper seems to be in the process of gaining a lander, while Mars 2020 has added a drone.

JWST is passively cooled, so I wouldn't call it cryogenic (Spitzer, on the other hand, was cryogenic during its primary mission). As far as I know the goal was always to make the optics as cold as practicable in a passively cooled telescope.
If JWST is passively cooled, what is the cryocooler for? It has been one of the technological banes of the project. And they intend to work one instrument at 8K or so.

I meant that the telescope optics are cooled radiatively, not with liquid helium or something like that. It's true that MIRI needs a cryocooler.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 05/10/2016 06:21 am
Europe’s ExoMars rover in 'last chance saloon'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36251642
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: savuporo on 05/10/2016 06:27 am
Europe’s ExoMars rover in 'last chance saloon'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36251642

Woerner is clearly wagging a finger at someone. Who ?

Quote
But Mr Woerner could not hide his irritation at the constantly rising price Esa was being asked to pay.

"The one who is the source of the delays - we should be very carefully looking at whether they are also eligible to get some extra money, because they are the reason we are delayed," he said.

"From my point of view it's very strange if you say, 'OK, I do it later, and therefore I get more money'."
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Sam Ho on 05/10/2016 05:49 pm
SpaceNews coverage of Woerner's comments:

http://spacenews.com/esa-chief-says-funding-for-delayed-exomars-rover-mission-remains-uncertain/

Quote
We will have a discussion with the main member states involved with the program. Then we’ll see how we can manage, and whether we can manage. I am not saying we can manage it. There are cost increases with the delay and there were cost increases from a technical point of view. Again, I don’t fully understand it after all the discussions we had in the past. I thought we were finished with the numbers. Now we have new numbers and this does not make me happy.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 05/10/2016 06:00 pm
Man, that's a great slogan. I hope they paint it on the side of the rover: "The Last Chance Saloon."

Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Space Ghost 1962 on 05/10/2016 06:32 pm
Man, that's a great slogan. I hope they paint it on the side of the rover: "The Last Chance Saloon."
... as it sits in a museum instead of on the surface of Mars ... alongside "X billion euro and all I got was this stupid rover".
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 05/10/2016 06:36 pm
"But Mr Woerner could not hide his irritation at the constantly rising price Esa was being asked to pay.

"The one who is the source of the delays - we should be very carefully looking at whether they are also eligible to get some extra money, because they are the reason we are delayed," he said.

"From my point of view it's very strange if you say, 'OK, I do it later, and therefore I get more money'."


So this is interesting and raises some management issues. Good program management involves a bunch of things, including monitoring what is happening, what the problem areas are, and allocating resources as needed, maybe even making personnel changes. One foot on the gas, one foot on the brakes, constantly checking the mirrors and the road, to toss in a driving analogy.

What Woerner's comments imply is that he's not sure that this was just poor management but may have been a case of somebody delaying to miss the launch window and then get an extra two years of pay. That's an eye-raising allegation.

I remember many years ago hearing a senior NASA science official discuss, after the fact, the delays involving MSL/Curiosity that caused it to miss its 2009 launch window and slip to 2011. That resulted in an over $400 million cost hit to the program, most of which was standing army cost. (As an aside, $400+ million was the equivalent of a Mars Scout or Discovery mission, so that delay cost NASA another space mission.)

The NASA official thought that the top-level management on Curiosity had been deficient. What I remember him saying was that at some point around 2008 JPL should have realized that they were going to miss the 2009 launch window and then ramped-down their work and come up with a lower spending level to reach 2011. Instead, apparently senior leadership at HQ had encouraged them to spend like crazy to try and make the 2009 window, even though at some point it should have been obvious that they would miss it. This official may have been wrong, or right. But it was an interesting insight into how such projects get managed and overseen at the top level.

So ExoMars might have had similar issues.


Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: baldusi on 05/10/2016 10:17 pm
I read about Woerner's statement more like what economist critique about cost-plus contracting. All the incentives are to balloon costs.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 05/18/2016 08:00 pm
http://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2016/05/Lego_ExoMars_model

Image credit: ESA–G. Porter

Lego ExoMars model
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 06/16/2016 09:01 pm
European Space Agency still backing Mars rover project

Quote
Meeting in Paris, delegations agreed to put the project, which has experienced serial delays, on to a fresh schedule.

They also injected an immediate extra sum of €77m (£59m), which will keep the ExoMars robot in development while a full and final solution to its financial problems is sought.

The aim is to have all matters resolved for a meeting of ministers in December.

Dr David Parker is the agency's director of human spaceflight and robotic exploration.

He told BBC News: "The challenges were set out to member states, and in the council meeting [on Wednesday] they were asked the fundamental questions: how important is this project; do you want to continue? And the very, very clear message came back that this remains a high priority for scientific and technological reasons."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36540259
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 06/17/2016 07:26 am
Not to turn this into a SpaceX thread, but assuming Russia has issues that ESA can't stand for, what about stuffing their rover into a red dragon?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: rocx on 06/17/2016 07:35 am
Not to turn this into a SpaceX thread, but assuming Russia has issues that ESA can't stand for, what about stuffing their rover into a red dragon?

They can't get it out. It's not designed with an off-ramp. This question has been asked too many times on this forum, and I really think it should rest until there is any indication SpaceX is planning any rover.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 06/17/2016 07:48 am
Not to turn this into a SpaceX thread, but assuming Russia has issues that ESA can't stand for, what about stuffing their rover into a red dragon?

They can't get it out. It's not designed with an off-ramp. This question has been asked too many times on this forum, and I really think it should rest until there is any indication SpaceX is planning any rover.

In other words it's Russia or NASA if not bust.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Stan Black on 07/25/2016 08:49 pm
Roskosmos has issued two tenders for Proton-M rockets. Both are for 2018 at 1,633,347,620 ruble a piece. One is for Exomars № 2.
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/order/notice/ok44/view/common-info.html?regNumber=0995000000216000036
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Chris Bergin on 10/24/2016 06:19 pm
Schiaparelli landing data to aid ExoMars 2020 rover - by Chris Gebhardt:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2016/10/schiaparelli-landing-data-exomars-2020-rover/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Alpha_Centauri on 12/02/2016 01:30 pm
Fully funded;
https://www.twitter.com/BBCAmos/status/804665280614060032
https://www.twitter.com/BBCAmos/status/804685097844740096

ESA share of ~100mEuro taken from mandatory science budget. Current missions safe but future CV missions may be delayed.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 12/02/2016 02:37 pm
Fully funded;
https://www.twitter.com/BBCAmos/status/804665280614060032
https://www.twitter.com/BBCAmos/status/804685097844740096

ESA share of ~100mEuro taken from mandatory science budget. Current missions safe but future CV missions may be delayed.

Good news. Was worried this might get shelved because of the amount of extra funding needed and after the TGO lander failure.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: as58 on 12/02/2016 02:41 pm
ESA share of ~100mEuro taken from mandatory science budget. Current missions safe but future CV missions may be delayed.

Not everyone's going to be happy about this, me included. How does this work anyway, since science budget is a mandatory contribution and Mars program isn't (or is it now?).

edit: They're claiming no delays to CV missions and directing funding to ExoMars will not be 'detrimental to science'. It's not at all clear to me how this is going to happen in practice.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Alpha_Centauri on 12/02/2016 03:33 pm
^^
More detail

http://spacenews.com/europe-commits-to-the-space-station-and-exomars-as-part-of-11-billion-in-commitments-to-esa/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 12/02/2016 07:45 pm
ESA share of ~100mEuro taken from mandatory science budget. Current missions safe but future CV missions may be delayed.

Not everyone's going to be happy about this, me included. How does this work anyway, since science budget is a mandatory contribution and Mars program isn't (or is it now?).

edit: They're claiming no delays to CV missions and directing funding to ExoMars will not be 'detrimental to science'. It's not at all clear to me how this is going to happen in practice.

They are the way things shake out and ExoMars rover is high priority item and if they aren't going to increase the budget plus having to take on more work from Russia it was an inevitable result.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: vjkane on 12/04/2016 12:17 am
edit: They're claiming no delays to CV missions and directing funding to ExoMars will not be 'detrimental to science'. It's not at all clear to me how this is going to happen in practice.
Other news sources report that missions in development with launches through 2021 will not be affected.  So far as I know, the only open call for new missions is the M5 call.  However, substantial funding for that mission, due to launch in the mid 2020s will come after the ExoMars 2020 launch.

The science budget is fixed, and 100 Euros will be transferred from it to the ExoMars budget.  Space agencies try to protect missions in flight and in development from the effects of cuts.  So presumably missions beyond 2021 are at risk.  JUICE launches in 2022, so it could theoretically get a cut which likely would delay launch.  A delay would also raise overall costs, so I presume ESA would try to avoid this.  (Does anyone else know what the full list of science missions planned for launch after 2021 is?)  But missions already in development with launches after 2021 may be the only places to raid for funds prior to the 2020 Mars launch.

Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Alpha_Centauri on 12/04/2016 07:01 am
Missions that should be formally adopted during the timeframe the savings are needed;

L2(Athena) launch 2028, selected but not yet adopted
M3(Plato) launch 2024, adopted
M4(Ariel/Thor/Xipe) launch 2025, not yet down-selected
M5 launch 2029, call closed in October

In all likelihood the savings will be in delaying start on these rather than trying to cut down missions currently being worked on.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: as58 on 12/04/2016 09:17 am
Delaying M5 or L2 probably wouldn't free funding in the timeframe needed for ExoMars.So if missions launching up to 2021 (Solar Orbiter, Juice, Euclid) are safe, Plato and/or M4 (selection next summer) would take the hit. Or maybe cancel plans for further S-class missions after the two already selected?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 12/16/2016 08:50 pm
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Full_go-ahead_for_building_ExoMars_2020

Full go-ahead for building ExoMars 2020

Quote
ESA and Thales Alenia Space signed a contract today that secures the completion of the European elements of the next mission.

Quote
The contract signed in Rome, Italy, secures the completion of the European elements and the rigorous tests to prove they are ready for launch.

These include the rover itself, which will be accommodated within the Russian descent module, along with the carrier module for cruise and delivery to Mars.

ESA is also contributing important elements of the descent module, such as the parachute, radar, inertial measurement unit, UHF radio elements, and the onboard computer and software.

The science instruments for the rover and surface platform are funded by national agencies of ESA member states, Roscosmos and NASA following calls to the scientific community.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: calapine on 03/13/2017 07:43 pm
ESA released nice high-res renders of the Exomars2020 Rover

Source (http://exploration.esa.int/mars/44969-images-videos-archive/?t=1025&cl=4)

Note the "flat tire" design of the wheels.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 03/21/2017 09:36 am
ExoMars landing sites to narrow to final two

20 March 2017

On Monday 27 March, the 4th ExoMars Landing Site Selection Workshop will take place at the European Space Research and Technology Centre (ESTEC), The Netherlands. At the conclusion of the two-day meeting the Landing Site Selection Working Group will make their recommendation for which two landing sites should continue to be studied for the ExoMars 2020 mission

http://exploration.esa.int/mars/58904-exomars-landing-sites-to-narrow-to-final-two/

Image credit: ESA/CartoDB
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: catdlr on 03/27/2017 03:46 pm
the video from the above pictures......

ExoMars 2020  -  360 View

European Space Agency, ESA

Published on Mar 26, 2017
This visualization presents a 360º view of the ExoMars 2020 rover.

The 310 kg rover will traverse the martian landscape on six wheels

https://youtu.be/6C1V1JHH0J0?t=001

https://youtu.be/6C1V1JHH0J0
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Alpha_Centauri on 03/28/2017 05:22 pm
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Final_two_ExoMars_landing_sites_chosen

Quote
Final two ExoMars landing sites chosen

Two ancient sites on Mars that hosted an abundance of water in the planet’s early history have been recommended as the final candidates for the landing site of the 2020 ExoMars rover and surface science platform: Oxia Planum and Mawrth Vallis.

*Fingers crossed for Mawrth*
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Dalhousie on 04/02/2017 10:13 pm
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Final_two_ExoMars_landing_sites_chosen

Quote
Final two ExoMars landing sites chosen

Two ancient sites on Mars that hosted an abundance of water in the planet’s early history have been recommended as the final candidates for the landing site of the 2020 ExoMars rover and surface science platform: Oxia Planum and Mawrth Vallis.

*Fingers crossed for Mawrth*

My understanding from an inside source this was something driven by internal politics, not science or engineering.  Oxia is a perfectly good site and bringing the already rejected back Mwarth back into the picture is unnecessary and unhelpful. IMHO!
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: savuporo on 04/02/2017 11:03 pm
No updates on Schiaparelli investgation?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 04/03/2017 04:52 am
No updates on Schiaparelli investgation?

Eh that's old news now.  It seems to be screwed up sensors as the chief problem.  Frankly I'd be more worried about if the Russians can properly assemble their surface platform.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Alpha_Centauri on 04/03/2017 10:28 am
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Final_two_ExoMars_landing_sites_chosen

Quote
Final two ExoMars landing sites chosen

Two ancient sites on Mars that hosted an abundance of water in the planet’s early history have been recommended as the final candidates for the landing site of the 2020 ExoMars rover and surface science platform: Oxia Planum and Mawrth Vallis.

*Fingers crossed for Mawrth*

My understanding from an inside source this was something driven by internal politics, not science or engineering.  Oxia is a perfectly good site and bringing the already rejected back Mwarth back into the picture is unnecessary and unhelpful. IMHO!

That was not my understanding; even back when Oxia was chosen for 2018 it was mentioned that the landing ellipses for the other sites were more favourable in 2020 and so they would reconsider.

Here are the supporting documents the working group used;
https://www.cosmos.esa.int/web/4th-exomars-lss-workshop/supporting-materials

I cannot see how Oxia is interesting astrobiologically. Its clays are all of one type, laid down in a single global event, and bear no relation to the later Hesperian outflow which has heavily eroded it.

Mawrth on a the other hand is a scientific candy store in comparison, clearly demonstrating dynamic geochemistry which could potentially have supported life. Albeit admittedly a bit more difficult site engineering-wise. And the Oxia unit is very likely also one of the ones present at Mawrth anyway.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Dalhousie on 04/04/2017 03:23 am
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Final_two_ExoMars_landing_sites_chosen

Quote
Final two ExoMars landing sites chosen

Two ancient sites on Mars that hosted an abundance of water in the planet’s early history have been recommended as the final candidates for the landing site of the 2020 ExoMars rover and surface science platform: Oxia Planum and Mawrth Vallis.

*Fingers crossed for Mawrth*

My understanding from an inside source this was something driven by internal politics, not science or engineering.  Oxia is a perfectly good site and bringing the already rejected back Mwarth back into the picture is unnecessary and unhelpful. IMHO!

That was not my understanding; even back when Oxia was chosen for 2018 it was mentioned that the landing ellipses for the other sites were more favourable in 2020 and so they would reconsider.

Here are the supporting documents the working group used;
https://www.cosmos.esa.int/web/4th-exomars-lss-workshop/supporting-materials

I cannot see how Oxia is interesting astrobiologically. Its clays are all of one type, laid down in a single global event, and bare no relation to the later Hesperian outflow which has heavily eroded it.

Mawrth on a the other hand is a scientific candy store in comparison, clearly demonstrating dynamic geochemistry which could potentially have supported life. Albeit admittedly a bit more difficult site engineering-wise. And the Oxia unit is very likely also one of the ones present at Mawrth anyway.

I on the other hand don't see the attraction of Mwarth!  :)

Heavily altered clays are difficult to interpret, be the clays from hydrothermal alteration or weathering, and not particular good places to mind microfossils or biomarkers. Only sedimentary clays are good for that.  Plus it looks to be rough and difficult to both land on and traverse.  There are good reasons why it keeps getting rejected as a site.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: vjkane on 04/05/2017 03:51 pm
I on the other hand don't see the attraction of Mwarth!  :)

Heavily altered clays are difficult to interpret, be the clays from hydrothermal alteration or weathering, and not particular good places to mind microfossils or biomarkers. Only sedimentary clays are good for that.  Plus it looks to be rough and difficult to both land on and traverse.  There are good reasons why it keeps getting rejected as a site.
I think the LPSC 2017 abstract linked below makes a strong case for Mwarth: one of the most ancient sites on Mars' surface, deep layering of water altered minerals, and a complex geological history that may tell us what processes operated early on Mars (and will provide lots of complexity to interpret as you point out).

https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2017/pdf/2194.pdf

If the 2020 rover goes to either Jezero Crater or NE Syrtis and the ExoMars rover goes to Mwarth, then I think we will get an incredible exploration of early Mars and its water history.  (Personal fantasy: the 2020 rover survives long enough to do an extended mission to the other of those two sites -- they are close.)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Phil Stooke on 04/05/2017 04:11 pm
The anti-Mawrth case was made by Dawn Sumner at the previous 2020 workshop.  She interpreted the clays at Mawrth as part of the Oyama ejecta blanket, and therefore their original geological context is unknown.  Mawrth fell in the ranking pretty quickly after that.   Mawrth supporters don't seem to address that critique at all in the third workshop.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: vjkane on 04/05/2017 04:49 pm
The anti-Mawrth case was made by Dawn Sumner at the previous 2020 workshop.  She interpreted the clays at Mawrth as part of the Oyama ejecta blanket, and therefore their original geological context is unknown.  Mawrth fell in the ranking pretty quickly after that.   Mawrth supporters don't seem to address that critique at all in the third workshop.
She makes a strong case.  I would be interested to see the other side, but you say that her objections weren't raised at the most recent ExoMars workshop.

Here's a link to her presentation (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjZ2dzS3I3TAhVW1GMKHVkgBZIQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmygeologypage.ucdavis.edu%2Fsumner%2FMawrth_Vallis_files%2F11_05_16_Mawrth_Sumner.ppt&usg=AFQjCNG5D9Y7zl2peOPkOSufLIWFREB8Lg&sig2=q0xwk2V6BRkjkEbrRXboqg)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Alpha_Centauri on 04/05/2017 05:40 pm
This issue is only relevant to the Mars 2020 landing site, which is much closer to Oyama.  Exomars would land in a different part of the Mawrth plateau well beyond the impact region she describes, which is probably why it wasn't raised.


Heavily altered clays are difficult to interpret, be the clays from hydrothermal alteration or weathering, and not particular good places to mind microfossils or biomarkers. Only sedimentary clays are good for that.  Plus it looks to be rough and difficult to both land on and traverse.  There are good reasons why it keeps getting rejected as a site.

Only the topmost layers may represent later chemical weathering; It could also represent clays being laid down in different local chemical conditions.  But even if that were true the intact Fe/Mg smectites layers below, like the ones at Oxia, are still there.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Dalhousie on 04/06/2017 04:17 am
This issue is only relevant to the Mars 2020 landing site, which is much closer to Oyama.  Exomars would land in a different part of the Mawrth plateau well beyond the impact region she describes, which is probably why it wasn't raised.


Heavily altered clays are difficult to interpret, be the clays from hydrothermal alteration or weathering, and not particular good places to mind microfossils or biomarkers. Only sedimentary clays are good for that.  Plus it looks to be rough and difficult to both land on and traverse.  There are good reasons why it keeps getting rejected as a site.

Only the topmost layers may represent later chemical weathering; It could also represent clays being laid down in different local chemical conditions.  But even if that were true the intact Fe/Mg smectites layers below, like the ones at Oxia, are still there.

It's a bit of a gamble :)  I have spent years working with heavily clay altered terrains.  Trying to make sense of them with the limited tools available to a robotic rover won't be much fun. :)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: AlexA on 05/26/2017 03:09 pm
ESA have published the "ExoMars 2016 - Schiaparelli Anomaly Inquiry" report, which includes recommendations for the 2020 mission:
http://exploration.esa.int/mars/59176-exomars-2016-schiaparelli-anomaly-inquiry/ (http://exploration.esa.int/mars/59176-exomars-2016-schiaparelli-anomaly-inquiry/)

This is the report from the Schiaparelli Inquiry Board (SIB). The SIB was established for the following purpose:
◾To establish the circumstances of the Schiaparelli anomaly;
◾To establish the root cause of the anomaly and the reasons for this root cause;
◾To establish recommendations for corrective actions;
◾To establish consequences for the 2020 ExoMars mission in terms of lack of demonstration and associated recommendations for remedying of any shortfalls.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: calapine on 06/22/2017 04:13 pm
New video of the ExoMars Rover by Airbus:

Mars Rover (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poZe3UIVA4o)


Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Svetoslav on 06/27/2017 08:08 am
What?

Instruments for ExoMars-2020 to be created "under military acceptance"

https://ria.ru/space/20170626/1497332699.html
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 06/27/2017 05:47 pm
What?

Instruments for ExoMars-2020 to be created "under military acceptance"

https://ria.ru/space/20170626/1497332699.html

Even having a Soviet-era-esque general shadowing the engineers isn't going to assure a successful mission.  It certainly didn't help the Phobos missions.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 07/06/2017 09:10 pm
Mars covered in toxic chemicals that can wipe out living organisms, tests reveal

Quote
Andrew Coates, a planetary scientist at UCL who leads the ExoMars panoramic camera team, said the work shows that the surface of Mars today is more hostile to life than thought. “This, combined with the solar and galactic particle radiation environment at the Martian surface, makes it all the more important to sample underneath the surface in the search for biomarkers,” he said.

“With the ExoMars rover, we will drill to retrieve and analyse samples from up to 2m under the surface,” he added. “This is important as a millimetre or two will get us below the harmful ultraviolet, one metre will get us below the oxidants such as perchlorates, and 1.5m gets us below the ionising radiation from the sun and galaxy.”

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jul/06/mars-covered-in-toxic-chemicals-that-can-wipe-out-living-organisms-tests-reveal (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jul/06/mars-covered-in-toxic-chemicals-that-can-wipe-out-living-organisms-tests-reveal)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 07/06/2017 09:53 pm
Mars covered in toxic chemicals that can wipe out living organisms, tests reveal

Quote
Andrew Coates, a planetary scientist at UCL who leads the ExoMars panoramic camera team, said the work shows that the surface of Mars today is more hostile to life than thought. “This, combined with the solar and galactic particle radiation environment at the Martian surface, makes it all the more important to sample underneath the surface in the search for biomarkers,” he said.

“With the ExoMars rover, we will drill to retrieve and analyse samples from up to 2m under the surface,” he added. “This is important as a millimetre or two will get us below the harmful ultraviolet, one metre will get us below the oxidants such as perchlorates, and 1.5m gets us below the ionising radiation from the sun and galaxy.”

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jul/06/mars-covered-in-toxic-chemicals-that-can-wipe-out-living-organisms-tests-reveal (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jul/06/mars-covered-in-toxic-chemicals-that-can-wipe-out-living-organisms-tests-reveal)

Common Earth soil bacteria being used as a "canary in coalmine". Rates of perchlorate degradation suspect.

Really bad reporting.

Wrong bacteria to use. Should be cyanobacteria. Like from the Atacama.

edit/gongora: fixed quotes

What's the reporting got to do with the wrong bacteria in your opinion being used.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 07/10/2017 06:46 am
A lot of articles these days are based off the press releases put out by various groups, probably in an effort to at least constrain the reporting. Did this group do that or did they naively think the media were going to read the paper?

The fact that they seem surprised by the reporting kind of makes me ask where they have been living the past five years.
Title: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 07/10/2017 03:21 pm
A lot of articles these days are based off the press releases put out by various groups, probably in an effort to at least constrain the reporting. Did this group do that or did they naively think the media were going to read the paper?

The fact that they seem surprised by the reporting kind of makes me ask where they have been living the past five years.

Know personally many of the planetary scientists (one just now drove off). They are interestingly unique in having very deep knowledge conveyed with very specific terms of art. Constantly having to defend themselves from lesser justified sources who intentionally misinterpret results to justify other agendas. (They even give me trouble when attempt to rewrite their math to allow a different perspective on the same subject, so it becomes a "surprise battle" in having to convince them that the change does not interfere with their science, which it doesn't.)

One prominent PI routinely gets into trouble in talking with certain journalists, and NASA sends him to the "woodshed" for retraining in PR, so much so that other scientists run interference to keep it from happening.

The science is subtle, but you have to wield a battleaxe to keep on mission. Going between extremes causes them to be easy targets for those who offer a sympathetic ear but then have no integrity with the application of what they've obtained. That's why they get suckered.

So why don't they keep away from the press?

I know that there are places where no one is allowed to talk to the press other than authorised press officers.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 07/10/2017 04:05 pm


So why don't keep away from the press?


It's still a democracy.

Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 07/10/2017 04:07 pm


So why don't keep away from the press?


It's still a democracy.

It's often part of the rules of the job nothing to do with democracy.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Welsh Dragon on 07/10/2017 06:39 pm
A lot of articles these days are based off the press releases put out by various groups, probably in an effort to at least constrain the reporting. Did this group do that or did they naively think the media were going to read the paper?

The fact that they seem surprised by the reporting kind of makes me ask where they have been living the past five years.
Some years ago I published a scientific paper that got picked up by national and international media. We had put out a press release, which accurately covered the content of the paper in 'lay person speak'. As you say, nobody will read the actual paper, least of all the humanities trained 'science journalists' of the press. Despite the fact that we put out an accurate press release, the tabloids went to town on it, and completely mutilated the story. Bottom line: there is no accuracy in poplar reporting of science. Accept it, and move on.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 07/10/2017 07:42 pm
<snip>
The fact that they seem surprised by the reporting kind of makes me ask where they have been living the past five years.
The last five years?  IMHO, poor science/technology reporting has ALWAYS, ALWAYS been a problem.

:) Why do you think Charles Darwin went bald?  Pulling out his hair after reading the bad science reporting.
>Read in Triumph the Insult Comic Dog's voice< "I keed, I keed!" :)
***

Ok, back to ExoMars 2020!
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 07/11/2017 03:54 am


So why don't keep away from the press?


It's still a democracy.

It's often part of the rules of the job nothing to do with democracy.

No. That's just not correct. If a NASA mission PI is not a NASA employee (like many PIs for competed missions, who usually work for universities or research centers), NASA cannot tell them what they can and cannot say to the media. They may self-censor, but NASA cannot muzzle them. And NASA should not muzzle them. NASA does like to put out a coherent message, and the agency is pretty darned good at communicating. But I don't know why anybody would advocate stifling a scientist's right in a democracy to say whatever he or she wants to say.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 07/11/2017 03:58 am
A lot of articles these days are based off the press releases put out by various groups, probably in an effort to at least constrain the reporting. Did this group do that or did they naively think the media were going to read the paper?

The fact that they seem surprised by the reporting kind of makes me ask where they have been living the past five years.
Some years ago I published a scientific paper that got picked up by national and international media. We had put out a press release, which accurately covered the content of the paper in 'lay person speak'. As you say, nobody will read the actual paper, least of all the humanities trained 'science journalists' of the press. Despite the fact that we put out an accurate press release, the tabloids went to town on it, and completely mutilated the story. Bottom line: there is no accuracy in poplar reporting of science. Accept it, and move on.

But let's keep in mind that there are different levels of expertise. The science journalism done by Nature, Science, Scientific American, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and a few other big name publications, is usually very good. For many years the Washington Post had a top-notch space journalist (Kathy Sawyer) who had remarkable insight and understanding of NASA and civil space issues. It was not a case of having good sources, she took the information that a good researcher could find and she synthesized it and she was really good. The Time and the Post don't have people assigned to science beats like they used to, but their people are really quite good, although not as good as in the past when these were dedicated beats.

The general press is often quite lousy. It's not that they are just lazy or sloppy, it's more that they are in the entertainment business, not journalism. They don't care.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: as58 on 07/11/2017 07:21 am
Unfortunately scientists and university (and also NASA) press offices are not always entirely blameless either. It's all too common nowadays to present almost any new result as a 'breakthrough'.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 07/11/2017 07:27 am


So why don't keep away from the press?


It's still a democracy.

It's often part of the rules of the job nothing to do with democracy.

No. That's just not correct. If a NASA mission PI is not a NASA employee (like many PIs for competed missions, who usually work for universities or research centers), NASA cannot tell them what they can and cannot say to the media. They may self-censor, but NASA cannot muzzle them. And NASA should not muzzle them. NASA does like to put out a coherent message, and the agency is pretty darned good at communicating. But I don't know why anybody would advocate stifling a scientist's right in a democracy to say whatever he or she wants to say.
I am not talking about NASA. I was talking more generally, I don't wish to say anything to specific on this issue but such rules do exist believe me.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Welsh Dragon on 07/11/2017 08:30 am
But let's keep in mind that there are different levels of expertise. The science journalism done by Nature, Science, Scientific American, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and a few other big name publications, is usually very good. For many years the Washington Post had a top-notch space journalist (Kathy Sawyer) who had remarkable insight and understanding of NASA and civil space issues. It was not a case of having good sources, she took the information that a good researcher could find and she synthesized it and she was really good. The Time and the Post don't have people assigned to science beats like they used to, but their people are really quite good, although not as good as in the past when these were dedicated beats.

The general press is often quite lousy. It's not that they are just lazy or sloppy, it's more that they are in the entertainment business, not journalism. They don't care.
This is very true, of course. It's exceptions that make the rule. I must also point out that this was in neuroscience, nothing to do with space reporting. But the same point is still true.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Arb on 07/12/2017 10:43 pm
Getting a bit off topic here chaps...
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 10/19/2017 07:36 pm
http://www.esa.int/For_Media/Press_Releases/ESA_Council_October_2017

Quote
The ESA Council, chaired by Jean-Yves Le Gall, met on 17–18 October in Paris, France.

An Agreement between NASA and ESA on ExoMars 2020 was unanimously approved to include NASA’s Deep Space Network in the mission’s ground segment and to extend Mars proximity relay communications using NASA’s MRO and MAVEN orbiters.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 12/17/2017 12:57 pm
http://www.esa.int/About_Us/ESA_Publications/ESA_Bulletin_171_3rd_quarter

From ESA Bulletin 171 (3rd quarter 2017) Page 66

Quote
ExoMars 2020

Delays of 2–10 months have accumulated on the Rover Pasteur payloads since Ministerial Council 2016 with respect to Lead Funding Agencies’ commitment. This was addressed with the relevant Member States on different occasions. The System Rocket Complex PDR was held in June allowing the consolidation of the spacecraft and combined operations activities plan at Baikonur.

Following the consolidation by Lavochkin and Thales Alenia Space Italy of the Descent Module and the Spacecraft Composite AIT activities and because of a longer launch campaign than initially assumed, Thales and Lavochkin were requested to propose an updated schedule that preserves 60 working days of contingencies two years prior to launch. A proposal for a simplified Rover wheelwalking mode is expected from Airbus Defence & Space UK to improve the overall compliance to the locomotion requirements on critical terrains.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: JW98 on 01/03/2018 07:57 pm
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/exomars2018-2017.html
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: AegeanBlue on 01/04/2018 05:15 pm
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/exomars2018-2017.html

Anatoly got one detail wrong: "Planetary Defense" is protecting from asteroid. Protecting from bacteria, which is what I assume the ExoMars lander needs to do is "Planetary Protection"
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 03/01/2018 01:09 pm
http://www.esa.int/About_Us/ESA_Publications/ESA_Bulletin_172_4th_quarter

From ESA Bulletin 172 (4th quarter 2017) pages 73-74

Quote
ExoMars 2020

The CDRs of the Carrier, Rover and Descent Modules (DM) are ending. Some equipment belonging to the Carrier and Rover Modules encountered difficult development that required close monitoring, lengthy tests and adjustments of design. The second phase of the DM CDR jointly conducted by Roscosmos/TsNIIMash and ESA is ongoing with emphasis on hardware design readiness, specification of software requirements and final analysis of the braking engine/Radar Doppler altimeter plume interference risk.

The system CDR is planned for 26 October. An updated ExoMars 2020 project schedule is being created to reflect a full-fledged DM and spacecraft test campaign, introducing 60 working days of contingencies, and assuming a realistic 66-day launch campaign.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: catdlr on 03/29/2018 10:27 am
ExoMars low-altitude parachute drop test

European Space Agency, ESA
Published on Mar 29, 2018

The video features footage taken of the parachute deployment as seen from the ground, as well as from onboard GoPros fixed to the drop test vehicle and looking up at the parachute. The test focused on the deployment and inflation of the second main stage 35m-wide parachute, which will be the largest to fly on Mars.

Discussing the test are Stephane Langlois, ESA ExoMars engineer, and John Underwood, principal engineer at Vorticity.

The test was carried out by Vorticity Ltd under the supervision of Thales Alenia Space France, Thales Alenia Space Italy and ESA, in Kiruna, Sweden, on 2 March 2018.

Credits: ESA & Vorticity Ltd

https://youtu.be/7V0__xvwNk4?t=001

https://youtu.be/7V0__xvwNk4
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 03/31/2018 05:27 pm
First test success for largest Mars mission parachute (article)

https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/First_test_success_for_largest_Mars_mission_parachute

Image credit: ESA
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 03/31/2018 10:34 pm
First test success for largest Mars mission parachute (article)

https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/First_test_success_for_largest_Mars_mission_parachute

It's good to see ESA's pulling off their own accomplishments for Mars.  My main concern is how the Russian platform is coming together; Russia's rockets are trustworthy but (at least for Mars) their spacecraft have lacked in success even in the Soviet era.  I do hope with ESA they can pull this off.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 04/21/2018 04:53 pm
Europe's Mars rover takes shape

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-43832868
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 04/22/2018 12:51 am
Europe's Mars rover takes shape

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-43832868

Good to see it coming along.  It is also a small bonus from that article to learn the decision between the sites of Oxia Planum and Mawrth Vallis will be made in November.  I wish for more news on the Russian components.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/25/2018 07:07 pm
Quote
After 7 years of design and development work (and even more for some of my colleagues) the @ESA_ExoMars Rover STM left @AirbusSpace Stevenage this morning for its test campaign in Toulouse. Cracking effort, team! Now fingers crossed for the test! 🤞

https://twitter.com/a_hutty/status/989084427639762946
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: AlexA on 05/30/2018 09:51 am
http://exploration.esa.int/mars/60365-red-planet-rover-set-for-extreme-environment-workout/ (http://exploration.esa.int/mars/60365-red-planet-rover-set-for-extreme-environment-workout/)
Quote
Red Planet rover set for extreme environment workout

29 May 2018
A representative model of the ExoMars rover that will land on Mars in 2021 is beginning a demanding test campaign that will ensure it can survive the rigours of launch and landing, as well as operations under the environmental conditions of Mars.

(http://exploration.esa.int/science-e-media/img/d3/ExoMars_Rover_STM_20180519.jpg)
Image Copyright: Airbus Defence and Space
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: AlexA on 05/30/2018 10:52 am
July 2017 issue of Astrobiology journal contains scientific papers on the ExoMars rover's instruments (all open/free access):
https://www.liebertpub.com/toc/ast/17/6-7 (https://www.liebertpub.com/toc/ast/17/6-7)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: plutogno on 05/30/2018 01:36 pm
http://exploration.esa.int/mars/60365-red-planet-rover-set-for-extreme-environment-workout/ (http://exploration.esa.int/mars/60365-red-planet-rover-set-for-extreme-environment-workout/)

a couple of weeks ago I was riding my bike just outside the Intespace premises here in Toulouse and I noticed in their "shipping crates lot" a crate marked "Exomars Rover"
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 06/19/2018 01:27 pm
http://exploration.esa.int/mars/60365-red-planet-rover-set-for-extreme-environment-workout/ (http://exploration.esa.int/mars/60365-red-planet-rover-set-for-extreme-environment-workout/)
Quote
Red Planet rover set for extreme environment workout

29 May 2018
A representative model of the ExoMars rover that will land on Mars in 2021 is beginning a demanding test campaign that will ensure it can survive the rigours of launch and landing, as well as operations under the environmental conditions of Mars.

(http://exploration.esa.int/science-e-media/img/d3/ExoMars_Rover_STM_20180519.jpg)
Image Copyright: Airbus Defence and Space

STM has gone through vibration testing: https://twitter.com/AirbusSpace/status/1009061308640186368
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 06/20/2018 07:49 pm
Rover test: What's it like to ride a rocket to Mars?

Quote
So, if you spend a billion euros on a space mission, you better be sure it can survive the rocket ride off Earth.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/science-environment-44538595?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Svetoslav on 06/20/2018 07:56 pm
Rover test: What's it like to ride a rocket to Mars?

If the rocket is called Proton, the answer to the question is: quite scary.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: AlexA on 07/20/2018 11:53 am
Wanted: Inspiring name for Europe's 2020 Mars rover

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44889596 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44889596)

Quote
◾The name can be a single word, a short combination of words, or an acronym.
◾It must not have been used for a past, current or proposed space mission.
◾Ideas should be accompanied by an explanation of no more than 150 words.
◾If a person's name, that person must have died on/before 10 October 1993.
◾The search website will close to entries at 23:59 BST on 10 October 2018.
◾A UK Space Agency expert panel will choose the best suggestion.
◾The winning entry will earn a tour of the Airbus factory building the rover.
◾Think hard! Only one name suggestion will be accepted from each entrant.

Link for name suggestions: https://events.airbus.com/ereg/index.php?eventid=200179103& (https://events.airbus.com/ereg/index.php?eventid=200179103&)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 07/20/2018 02:38 pm
Are Americans allowed to make suggestions?  Their list for country of residence is all Europe...plus Canada...but not the United States.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: AlexA on 07/20/2018 02:50 pm
Are Americans allowed to make suggestions?  Their list for country of residence is all Europe...plus Canada...but not the United States.

No.

Quote
5. Eligibility
5.1 The competition is only open to individuals resident in a Member State of the European Space Agency and associate members (see 5.2 below), except:
(a) the judging panel (in 4.1 and 4.3 above); and
(b) members of the immediate families or households of (a) above.
5.2 The Member States and associate members of the European Space Agency are: Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom.
From https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/exomars-rover-naming-competition-terms-and-conditions (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/exomars-rover-naming-competition-terms-and-conditions)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 07/20/2018 07:23 pm
Quote
That's good. Marsy McDrillFace has a much nicer ring to it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Johnimus_Prime/status/1020350502503092224
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 07/21/2018 04:14 am
Are Americans allowed to make suggestions?  Their list for country of residence is all Europe...plus Canada...but not the United States.

No.

Quote
5. Eligibility
5.1 The competition is only open to individuals resident in a Member State of the European Space Agency and associate members (see 5.2 below), except:
(a) the judging panel (in 4.1 and 4.3 above); and
(b) members of the immediate families or households of (a) above.
5.2 The Member States and associate members of the European Space Agency are: Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom.
From https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/exomars-rover-naming-competition-terms-and-conditions (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/exomars-rover-naming-competition-terms-and-conditions)

Technically, if you are an American who is a "resident" of one of those countries, you qualify.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: SciNews on 07/27/2018 05:13 pm
Roscosmos: Срок запуска миссии определён. Старт состоится 25 июля 2020 года.
Google translation "The mission start time is defined. The launch will take place on July 25, 2020."
https://www.roscosmos.ru/25367/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: AlexA on 09/04/2018 01:39 pm
ExoMars 2018 Surface Platform Experiment Proposal Information Package published by ESA here:
http://exploration.esa.int/mars/55699-exomars-2018-surface-platform-experiment-proposal-information-package/ (http://exploration.esa.int/mars/55699-exomars-2018-surface-platform-experiment-proposal-information-package/)

No detail on the actual instruments though.


Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Alpha_Centauri on 11/05/2018 01:04 pm
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCAmos/status/1059425372075376640
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Dao Angkan on 11/10/2018 09:53 am
Oxia Planum favoured for ExoMars surface mission (https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Oxia_Planum_favoured_for_ExoMars_surface_mission)
Landing site selected for UK Mars rover (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/landing-site-selected-for-uk-mars-rover)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 11/11/2018 05:55 pm
Oxia Planum favoured for ExoMars surface mission (https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Oxia_Planum_favoured_for_ExoMars_surface_mission)

Landing site selected for UK Mars rover (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/landing-site-selected-for-uk-mars-rover)

Oxia Planum texture map

One example of how the Oxia Planum landing site candidate for the ExoMars 2020 mission is being analysed. The map outlines a boundary that encapsulates the range of possible landing ellipses, with some added margin. The colours represent the variety of surface terrains identified, including plains, channels, impact craters and wind-blown features, for example. It is not a geological map intended for scientific analysis, but rather a tool used to identify different surface textures and where potential hazards may lie.

The narrow ellipses with the black outline mark the most likely landing zones for the extreme case of the very beginning and end of the launch window respectively (the launch dictates the arrival inclination and there are other scenarios in between). The central touchdown point in Oxia Planum is the same regardless of the actual launch date in the 25 July–13 August 2020 launch window.

The background image is from the Thermal Emission Imaging System instrument on NASA’s Mars Odyssey orbiter.

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2018/11/Oxia_Planum_texture_map

Image credit: IRSPS/TAS; NASA/JPL-Caltech/Arizona State University
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 11/11/2018 06:54 pm
How big is the ExoMars 2020 mission?

Sizes of key components of the ExoMars 2020 mission. The parachutes that will help slow the descent module through the martian atmosphere are compared in size to the iconic landmark of Big Ben, in London, UK.  The descent module, which will deliver the surface platform and rover to the martian surface, is compared with the height of a human. The rover is stowed inside the surface platform, and will drive off one of the two ramps that will be deployed after landing.

The ExoMars Trace Gas Orbiter, which launched in 2016 and is already in orbit around Mars analysing its atmosphere, is also included in this graphic. It will relay data from the rover mission back to Earth.

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2018/11/How_big_is_the_ExoMars_2020_mission

Image credit: ESA
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 11/12/2018 02:59 am
I see why there's a fuss about testing parachutes that huge and likewise developing retropropulsion.  Those parachutes are ridiculously huge; fact they're achievable a testament of textile technology.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: mcgyver on 11/15/2018 06:30 am
Are future manned missions supposed to make use of parachutes too, or will they rely on retrorocket right after exiting from high temperature phase?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: SciNews on 11/24/2018 03:20 pm
ESA/Euronews: Looking for life on Mars with ExoMars
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXYl6fX1xNw
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 12/01/2018 07:32 pm
ExoFitness

The sun set on a week of trials for the ExoMars rover prototype named Charlie (in the foreground). The first of two field trials for the mission, known as ExoFiT, took place in the Tabernas desert in Spain between 13-26 October.

While Charlie was located in Spain, mission operators and instrument scientists were based over 1000 km away at mission control in Harwell, UK, near ESA’s ECSAT centre where ExoFit was managed. The distance was crucial as teams operating a rover on the Martian surface must contend with infrequent communication possibilities and must run science operations with what little information they have. The rover itself is designed to carry out activities such as a traverse or observations in between communication blackouts as well as send data to Earth in preparation for the next martian day.

During the 10-day trial, the team practised driving the rover off its landing platform (in the background of this image), targeting sites of interest, and sampling rocks. Decisions were made based on data transmitted by the rover together with maps of the terrain. 

Naturally, the team encountered technical difficulties, to be expected in real test conditions. Rainfall disrupted events and forced the team to adapt and optimise their time. In the second week, the team managed to finish activities scheduled for two martian days in a single day.

The scenarios in general tested the rover’s radar instrument, close-up imager, panoramic mast imager and drill, with more specific tests aimed at replicating what will be performed on the martian surface. Once on the Red Planet, the rover drill beneath the surface to look for signs of life.

A lot is learned during these simulation studies to fine-tune equipment and train mission specialists. The issues encountered in the field trial will be addressed and tested again in a second field campaign introducing more complex autonomous rover operations.

Set for February 2019, the second field trial will take place in the Atacama desert of Chile. Atacama is one of the most similar terrains on Earth to Mars, with the added benefit of drier weather and the nearby European Southern Observatory’s Paranal Observatory over the Tabernas desert.

The operational challenges observed provide valuable inputs for the ExoMars rover and other planetary rovers such as the Sample Fetch Rover of the NASA-ESA Mars Sample Return mission. Currently in the concept phase, ESA is working with international partners to achieve its vision of Europe’s expanding role in space exploration.

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2018/11/ExoFitness

Image credit: ESA / Airbus
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 12/01/2018 07:53 pm
ESA's rover progress is pleasing, but I'd be more interested in knowing how Russia's platform is progressing.  Without it the rover can't land safely after all.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 01/16/2019 07:07 pm
Mars parachute testing

Testing a candidate design for a subsonic parachute to slow a future mission to Mars inside Canada’s National Research Council wind tunnel, in Ottawa.

Mars has a thin but substantial atmosphere, which is both a hindrance and a help to mission designers. Protective heat shields must be flown to protect any spacecraft making atmospheric entry but parachutes are then able to slow down and stabilise their descent.

Up until now single parachutes have been employed for Mars missions, but in future a double parachute system offers a way to deliver a greater payload to the surface with enhanced trajectory control. A smaller, supersonic parachute for initial deceleration would be supplemented by a larger subsonic parachute for the descent phase.

UK company Vorticity Systems has performed testing on a range of subsonic parachute shapes for Mars missions with support from ESA’s Technology Development Element.

Testing made use of a drone, a helicopter and low- and high-altitude balloons as well as the 9 x 9 m Canadian wind tunnel pictured, plus a smaller 2 x 3 m wind tunnel at the same site – in combination with high-fidelity software simulations.

One test even seeded the air around a parachute with tiny droplets of olive oil, which were laser-scanned to better view their flow pattern.

“This was a very challenging project involving many tests at different facilities,” comments Luca Ferracina, overseeing the work for ESA.

“We collected an enormous amount of data to help us to better understand the behaviour and performance of many parachute types. This information will be key to designing future parachutes for Mars along with other planets such as Venus, Neptune and Uranus.”

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/01/Mars_parachute_testing

Image credit: Vorticity Systems
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 01/19/2019 07:42 pm
ExoTeR rover

A half-scale version of the ExoMars rover, called ExoMars Testing Rover (ExoTeR), seen manoeuvring itself carefully through the red rocks and sand of 9x9 m Planetary Utilisation Testbed, part of ESA’s Planetary Robotics Laboratory in its ESTEC technical centre in the Netherlands, as a test of autonomous navigation software destined for ESA’s ExoMars 2020 mission to the Red Planet.

Related article: ExoMars software passes ESA Mars Yard driving test (https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Engineering_Technology/ExoMars_software_passes_ESA_Mars_Yard_driving_test)

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/01/ExoTeR_rover

Image credit:  ESA–G. Porter
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Svetoslav on 02/01/2019 09:53 am
Hello,

Yesterday Roscosmos published an interview with Lavochkin's director Kolmykov. It's available here:

https://www.roscosmos.ru/25966/

And there's quite a detailed photo of ExoMars 2020 lander
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 Rosalind Franklin - updates
Post by: eeergo on 02/07/2019 10:00 am
https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1093463675510407169 (https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1093463675510407169)

ExoMars 2020 christened "Rosalind Franklin".
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 02/07/2019 02:24 pm
The European ExoMars rover under construction at Airbus, Stevenage, in the UK.

ExoMars is a joint endeavour between ESA and Roscosmos. The rover is part of the 2020 mission, landing on Mars with a surface science platform in 2021.

The name of the European rover that will explore Mars in 2021 was revealed today at Airbus, Stevenage, UK by Chris Skidmore, UK Science Minister.

The rover is named Rosalind Franklin after prominent scientist behind the discovery of the structure of DNA. The ExoMars rover will be the first of its kind to combine the capability to roam around Mars and to study it at depth, searching for evidence of life buried underground. 

photo credit: ESA-Stephane Corvaja, 2019.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 02/07/2019 06:42 pm
Quote
To all excited about the naming of the
@ESA_ExoMars
 rover Rosalind Franklin: A reminder that "Rosy" was the diminutive, dismissive nickname by which James Watson referred to her in The Double Helix. Calling her namesake "Rosy the rover" would not seem to honor her memory.

https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/1093547130264858624?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 03/01/2019 12:13 pm
ExoFiT rover in Chile

The ExoFit model of the Rosalind Franklin rover that will be sent to Mars in 2021 scouting the Atacama Desert, in Chile, following commands from mission control in the United Kingdom, over 11 000 km away.

The ExoFiT field campaign simulates ExoMars operations in every key aspect. During the trial, the rover drove from its landing platform and targets sites of interest to sample rocks in the Mars-like landscapes of the Chilean desert.

The team behind the exercise, a mix of scientists and engineers, is simulating all the challenges of a real mission on the Red Planet, including communication delays, local weather conditions and tight deadlines.

The rover is equipped with a set of cameras and proxy instruments, such as a radar, a spectrometer and a drill, to replicate martian operations.

Scientists in the UK must take decisions on the next steps with the little information they have – a combination of the data transmitted by the rover and satellite images of the terrain.

The ExoFiT teams in the UK set the exploration path and activities for the rover, which travels at a speed of two centimeters per second avoiding rocks and overcoming slopes.

ExoFiT stands for ExoMars-like Field Testing, and it is an essential step to improving European robotic operations not only for ExoMars, but also for future missions aiming to return soil from the Red Planet, such as the Mars Sample Return mission.

Related article: Fit for Mars (http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/Fit_for_Mars)

http://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/02/ExoFiT_rover_in_Chile2

Image credit: Airbus
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 03/13/2019 08:27 am
Heat sterilisation of ExoMars parachute

A technician places a nearly 70 kg parachute designed for ESA and Roscosmos’s ExoMars 2020 mission inside the dry heater steriliser of the Agency’s Life, Physical Sciences and Life Support Laboratory, based in its Netherlands technical centre.

Mars is a potential abode of past and perhaps even present-day life. Accordingly, international planetary protection regulations require any mission sent to the Red Planet to undergo rigorous sterilisation, to prevent terrestrial microbes from piggybacking their way there.

The Lab’s Alan Dowson explains: “This is the ‘qualification model’ of the 35-m diameter main parachute for ExoMars 2020, basically a test version which allows us to finalise our sterilisation procedures ahead of the flight model chute’s arrival.

“This version has been threaded with thermal sensors, allowing us to see how long it takes to reach the required sterilisation temperature in all parts of the folded parachute, even in the hardest to heat points. Our target was to sterilise at 125 °C for 35 hours and 26 minutes, and the oven took about 44 hours to reach that temperature to begin with.”

The oven is part of the Lab’s 35 sq. m ‘ISO Class 1’ cleanroom, one of the cleanest places in Europe. All the cleanroom’s air passes through a two-stage filter system. Anyone entering the chamber has to gown up in a much more rigorous way than a hospital surgeon, before passing through an air shower to remove any remaining contaminants.

“If you imagine our clean room as being as big as the entire Earth’s atmosphere, then its allowable contamination would be equal to a single hot air balloon,” adds Alan. “Our ISO 1 rating means we have less than 10 dust particles measuring a tenth of one millionth of a metre in diameter per cubic metre of air.”

The mostly nylon and Kevlar parachute, packed into an 80-cm diameter donut-shaped unit, was delivered by Italy’s Arescosmo company. This qualification model will now be sent back there for testing, to ensure this sterilisation process causes no change to the parachute’s material properties.

Alan explains: “We will receive the parachute flight model later this spring for the same sterilisation process – identical to this version, except without any thermal sensors.”

ExoMars’s smaller first stage 15-m diameter parachute has already gone through sterilisation using the oven. This is the parachute that opens during initial, supersonic atmospheric entry, with the second, larger chute opening once the mission has been slowed to subsonic velocity.

The Lab has also tackled a variety of ExoMars instruments and subsystems, but this second stage subsonic parachute is the single largest item to be sterilised. The sterilisation process aims to reduce the overall mission ‘bioburden’ to a 10 thousandth of its original level.

Photo Credits: ESA–M. Cowan
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 03/14/2019 11:16 am
ExoMars locomotion tests

Before Rosalind Franklin the ExoMars rover can search for signs of life on Mars, it must learn how to manoeuvre the landscape. Scientists and engineers are putting the rover through a series of locomotion tests to fine tune how it will respond to a challenging martian terrain.   

The ExoMars mission will see Rosalind the rover and its surface platform land on Mars in 2021. There, the rover will move across many types of terrain, from fine-grained soil to large boulders and slopes to collect samples with a 2-m-long drill, and analyse them with instruments in its onboard laboratory. Engineers must ensure Rosalind does not get stuck in sand or topple over and that it is able to climb steep slopes and overcome rocks.

The ExoMars teams are using a dedicated rover to run locomotion tests. In this image, the full-sized locomotion model is about to move from the surface platform. This rover has been designed to behave exactly like Rosalind would do under martian gravity – that is about a third of gravity found on Earth. For that purpose, the model has a different weight distribution and features a boom mounted on top to achieve the exact location of the centre of gravity of the rover.

A special facility at RUAG Space in Zurich, Switzerland, emulates all the terrain conditions that Rosalind the rover is expected to encounter on Mars: different types of soil, various obstacle shapes and sizes and all kind of terrain slopes. A large hydraulic platform filled with 20 tonnes of soil was put in place for the tests.

Over the past few weeks, ESA, Roscosmos, Thales, Airbus and RUAG engineers have been testing the capability of the rover to egress from its landing platform onto the martian soil. Should the platform and rover find themselves on a slope upon landing, as simulated in the image, Rosalind the rover must be able to negotiate steep inclinations to descend from the platform. The team looked closely at the performance of the rover over the ramps at different inclination angles, from 5 up to 35 degrees.

The steep slope was a challenge for the rover. The wheels found it difficult at times to gain traction, a valuable lesson of what can be expected on Mars.

The rover has six wheels. Each wheel pair is suspended on a pivoted bogie so each wheel can be steered and driven independently. Its flexible metallic wheels, equipped with springs, offer great traction capability, allowing the rover to achieve better grip during obstacle climbing and achieve smoother locomotion.

Thanks to a triple-bogie locomotion system, the rover is able to overcome obstacles as big as its wheels. The rover uses inclinometers and gyroscopes to enhance its motion control.

Two cameras at the top of the rover’s mast allow Rosalind Franklin to see in 3D, like humans do, and identify rocks and slopes in front of it. This also allows the navigation system to take account of, and correct for, any wheel slippage. Rovers on Mars have previously been caught in sand, and continued wheel turning might actually dig them deeper – just like a car stuck in mud or snow.

These tests took place at the same time as the ExoFit field tests. In the most recent campaign, the rover drove from its landing platform and targeted sites of interest to sample rocks in the Mars-like landscapes of the Chilean desert.

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/03/ExoMars_locomotion_tests

Image credit: ESA
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Olaf on 03/20/2019 12:16 pm
https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/1108354714725425152

Notification by Roscosmos
https://www.roscosmos.ru/26224/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Olaf on 03/21/2019 03:43 pm
https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1108730129247809537
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 03/22/2019 07:26 am
03/20/2019 5:15 pm

 Tests of the transition system with the layout "ExoMars 2020"

 The Khrunichev Center and NPO Lavochkina successfully conducted shock tests of the transition system together with the EkmoMars-2020 spacecraft mockup

 Specialists GKNPTs them.  MV Khrunichev and NPO Lavochkina continue to prepare the second stage of the ExoMars project - a joint project of the State Corporation Roscosmos and the European Space Agency for the Study of Mars.

 In 2020, using the Proton-M launch vehicle and the Briz-M upper stage, it is planned to launch the ExoMars 2020 spacecraft.

 In preparation for the launch, NPO Lavochkina underwent joint shock tests of the vibrational strength mockup of the ExoMars 2020 spacecraft with a transition system developed and manufactured at the GKNPTs them.  M. V. Khrunichev.  The transition system (adapter), with the help of which the ExoMars 2020 spacecraft will be installed on the Briz-M upper stage, will allow separation of the device from the upper stage.

 Tests were conducted in February-March 2019.  The positive test results at NPO Lavochkina confirmed the compatibility of the mechanical interfaces of the EkmoMars-2020 spacecraft mockup and the transition system under impact conditions.

 After completion of joint tests with the EkmoMars-2020 spacecraft mockup, the transition system was returned to the GKNPTK rocket and space plant.  M. V. Khrunichev in Moscow.  The next phase of the transition system will begin shortly.  It includes its retrofitting with the necessary equipment and preparation for testing directly with the flight product of the spacecraft ExoMars 2020.

 The project "ExoMars" is implemented in two stages.

 The Roskosmos State Corporation and the European Space Agency (ESA) successfully implemented the first stage of the joint European-Russian project ExoMars, having carried out from the Baikonur cosmodrome on March 14, 2016 with the help of the Russian launch vehicle Proton-M and the Briz- M ”the launch to Mars of the ExoMars-2016 spacecraft, which includes the orbital module TGO (Trace Gas Orbiter) and the Schiaparelli descent module.

 The second phase of the project - the ExoMars 2020 mission is implemented in close cooperation with the ESA and the parent company on the European side - the Italian division of Thales Alenia Space.  The spacecraft ExoMars 2020 includes a landing module with a landing platform developed by the Russian side, a flight module and a European-made rover.  Scientific equipment will be located both on board the European rover and on board the Russian landing platform.

 The goal of the project is to study the surface and subsurface layer of Mars in close proximity to the landing site, conduct geological studies and search for traces of the possible existence of life on the planet.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/26225/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 03/26/2019 08:03 pm
Exomas lander platform

Unpacking the platform that is destined to land on the Red Planet as part of the next ExoMars mission in Turin, Italy.

An announcement was made by the Russian State Space Corporation Roscosmos of its new name: ‘Kazachok’.

Kazachok left Russia in March 2019 after being carefully packed to meet planetary protection requirements, making sure to not bring terrestrial biological contamination to Mars. It was shipped to Turin, Italy, on an Antonov plane along with ground support equipment and other structural elements.

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/03/Exomas_lander_platform2

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/03/Exomas_lander_platform

Credits: Thales Alenia Space & Roscosmos
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: mcgyver on 03/27/2019 12:14 pm
so which is the final design of the landing system? I know it was changed multiple times.
Crushable cushions?
Suspensions?
Retrorockets?
All together?

Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 03/27/2019 01:02 pm

so which is the final design of the landing system? I know it was changed multiple times.
Crushable cushions?
Suspensions?
Retrorockets?
All together?


Seems like all three (landing platform has propulsion)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 03/28/2019 03:23 pm
ExoMars electromagnetic sensor (structural model)

A structural and thermal model of the sensor for the electromagnetic wave analyzer that is a scientific instrument on the ExoMars lander platform.

Researchers want to investigate the existence of lightning discharges on Mars by measuring fluctuations in the electromagnetic field within the range of audible frequencies. Other observations have shown that lightning exists on Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune, but Mars is still unknown.

The ExoMars rover and platform will launch to the Red Planet in 2020. At its landing site on Mars, Oxia Planum, the Czech-made electromagnetic wave analyser, that is part of the MAIGRET instrument mounted on the Kazachok platform, will scan for electromagnetic frequencies that are typical of lightning discharges. In addition to listening for lightning, the platform will also study the climate, atmosphere, radiation, and the possible presence of subsurface water ice in the landing site and surrounding areas.

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/03/ExoMars_electromagnetic_sensor_structural_model

Image credit: Institute of Scientific Instruments CAS, Brno, Czechia–I. Vlcek
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 04/03/2019 01:06 pm
Video of the landing tests in NPO Lavochkin:

https://twitter.com/roscosmos/status/1113425974153154560
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 04/05/2019 09:11 am
ExoMars carrier module ready for tests

The module that will carry the ExoMars rover and surface science platform from Earth to Mars arrived on 2 April at Thales Alenia Space in Turin, Italy, from OHB System in Bremen, Germany.

The carrier module also provides the communication link between Earth and the spacecraft, and will support navigation with star trackers and Sun sensors. It also carries propellant required for attitude control and manoeuvres after launch and during cruise by means of its16 20-N thrusters that will use up to 136 kg of hydrazine propellant.

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/04/ExoMars_carrier_module_ready_for_tests2

Image credit: Thales Alenia Space
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 05/12/2019 02:49 pm
ExoMars Analytical Laboratory Drawer

A key set of scientific instruments developed for the ExoMars rover Rosalind Franklin passed tests April 2019 to ensure compatibility with the martian environment.

The rover’s Analytical Laboratory Drawer (ALD) flight model completed its thermal and vacuum sessions in Turin, Italy, at a Thales Alenia Space Italy facility.

The ExoMars rover ALD system is designed by Thales Alenia Space Italy in Turin and carries a set of four complex mechanisms developed by OHB in Munich, Germany, that can process and supply soil samples to three scientific instruments. Dedicated control electronics and a thermal control system will keep the system working and operating at the required temperatures while preserving the Mars samples and possible traces of organic molecules.

The instruments will make a detailed study of the composition and chemistry of the soil samples collected by the Rover’s drill. Following a process similar to a factory floor, once acquired from the drill, samples are dropped into a crushing station and pulverised. The fine powder is then dosed and moved on to the next area for precise distribution – either on a refillable container or in thumb-sized ovens where the specimens are analysed.

The Analytical Laboratory Drawer houses three instruments to search for signs of life on Mars.

The ‘MicrOmega’ instrument uses visible and infrared light to characterise minerals in the samples; a Raman spectrometer uses a laser to identify mineralogical composition and lastly a combination of a Laser Desorption Mass Spectrometer and of a Gas Chromatograph (part of the “MOMA” instrument) will study and identify soil chemistry. The most scientifically interesting samples, will be dosed into the MOMA ovens. The ALD has 31 ovens, where samples can be heated and the vapour and gases emitted will be analysed with gas chromatography techniques to look for traces of organic compounds.

Related article: ExoMars laboratory passes Red Planet simulation (http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/ExoMars_laboratory_passes_Red_Planet_simulation)

http://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/05/ExoMars_Analytical_Laboratory_Drawer

Image credit: Thales Alenia Space
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 05/30/2019 03:10 pm
It appears Rosalind will be able to kind of... walk!  :o


https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1134112343724572674
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 06/01/2019 07:24 am
ExoMars - Testing Locomotion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLnXjuEaj-o
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 06/02/2019 03:39 pm
ExoMars PanCam fully assembled

Front view of the fully assembled flight model of PanCam, the ExoMars rover’s scientific cameras. 

The two wide angle cameras are mounted on the left and right hand sides and the high resolution camera is the larger aperture on the left hand side. The navigation cameras will be located in the centre panel.

The image was taken in University College London’s Mullard Space Science Laboratory ISO-5 cleanroom.

More information about PanCam (https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ast.2016.1548)

More about ExoMars (http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/A_European_mission_control_for_the_martian_rover)

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/05/ExoMars_PanCam_fully_assembled

Image credit: M. de la Nougerede, UCL/MSSL
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 06/27/2019 08:44 am
Lavochkin announces it has delivered its share of components to Thales:

https://twitter.com/roscosmos/status/1144159578281644032 (https://twitter.com/roscosmos/status/1144159578281644032)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 07/01/2019 10:23 am
Lavochkin announces it has delivered its share of components to Thales:

Some pics.

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/06/ExoMars_descent_module_components

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/06/ExoMars_descent_module_components2

https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/06/ExoMars_descent_module_components3

Credits: Roscosmos
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 07/01/2019 10:25 am
ExoMars 2020: progress and challenges

http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/ExoMars_2020_progress_and_challenges
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 07/03/2019 05:00 pm
I feel the need to quote the release in full.  May 28 parachute test content in red.
ExoMars 2020: progress and challenges

http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/ExoMars_2020_progress_and_challenges

Dated June 28, 2019
Quote
The full parachute system that will help deliver the ExoMars rover and a surface science platform to the martian surface has completed a full-scale high-altitude deployment sequence test, although unexpected damage to the main parachutes occurred.

Meanwhile, the main elements of the descent module hardware, including the heat shield that will protect the lander as it enters the atmosphere of Mars, have been delivered to Thales Alenia Space in Turin, Italy, this week. The European carrier spacecraft that will carry the mission from Earth to Mars, and the Russian landing platform named Kazachok already arrived in Italy earlier this year. The rover, named Rosalind Franklin, is currently being fitted with hardware and its scientific payload in Stevenage, UK. Once fully integrated, the hardware will be tested to ensure it is ready for the journey to space, and operations on Mars.

As part of the planned upcoming testing, the parachute system will be adjusted to address a problem observed in the most recent high-altitude drop test, conducted on 28 May at the Swedish Space Corporation Esrange facility in Kiruna.

The descent module needs two parachutes – each with its own pilot chute for extraction – to help slow the craft prior to landing. Following separation of the parachutes, the speed must be suitable for the braking engines to safely deliver the landing platform and the rover onto the surface of Mars. The entire sequence from atmospheric entry to landing takes just six minutes.

Last year the second and largest main parachute was successfully tested in a low-altitude drop test from an altitude of 1.2 km, deployed by a helicopter. The parachute has a diameter of 35 m, which is the largest parachute ever to fly on a Mars mission. The most recent test took place from a height of 29 km with the aid of a stratospheric helium balloon, and focused on the deployment sequence of all four parachutes.

A precise release of the drop test vehicle occurred at the planned altitude and the first pyrotechnic mortar activated normally to release the first pilot chute – which inflated correctly.

The main parachute lid release mechanism worked and the first main parachute also inflated well, but several radial tears in the fabric were observed immediately following extraction from the main parachute bag, before the parachute experienced maximum load.

The second pyrotechnic mortar also worked normally, ejecting the second pilot chute, which also inflated as expected. The second main parachute was extracted from its bag, but one radial tear was observed, again before reaching peak inflation loads.

All the data onboard the drop test vehicle were recovered and analysed. These data include acceleration, angular rates, magnetometer, GPS, and barometer data, together with camera footage.

Detailed analysis of the telemetry parameters recorded during the test confirmed that a good level of the expected aerodynamic drag was nevertheless achieved in spite of the parachute tears. The overall descent time of the entire test was also close to prediction.

The second parachute was quickly recovered and examined while it took a few days to identify and recover the first parachute that had travelled over 100 km following separation.

"Hardware recovery was essential to help define necessary improvements prior to the next test," says Francois Spoto, ExoMars team leader.

"We will implement design improvements to the parachute bags to ensure smoother extraction of the parachute, as well as reinforcements to the parachute itself to limit tear propagation in case some would still occur. The complex process of folding and packing the parachutes and hundreds of lines will also be examined."

Two further parachute tests are planned for later in 2019.

"Although the overall test sequence was successful, we always expected to encounter some problems while testing such a complex system," says Francois.

"This is why we test, test and test again, to overcome potential weakness and make sure we have the strongest system flying to Mars. We are working harder than ever to keep on track for our launch window next year."

The mission is scheduled for launch in July 2020, arriving at Mars in March 2021. After driving off the surface platform, Rosalind Franklin will explore the surface of Mars, seeking out geologically interesting sites to drill below the surface, to determine if life ever existed on our neighbour planet.

The ExoMars programme is a joint endeavour between ESA and Roscosmos. In addition to the 2020 mission, it also includes the Trace Gas Orbiter (TGO) launched in 2016. The TGO is already both delivering important scientific results of its own and relaying data from NASA's Curiosity Mars rover and Insight lander. It will also relay the data from the 2020 mission once it arrives at Mars.

Image caption:
Quote
The ExoMars parachute deployment sequence that will deliver a surface platform and rover to the surface of Mars in 2021 (following launch in 2020). The graphic is not to scale, and the colours of the parachutes are for illustrative purposes only.

The graphic highlights the main events concerning the parachutes, a sequence that is initiated after significant slowing of the 3.8 m-wide entry module in the atmosphere with the aeroshell's heatshields. Then the first pilot parachute is deployed, and shortly after the first main stage parachute, which measures 15 m in diameter and has a disc-gap band design. It will open while the module is still travelling at supersonic speed and will be jettisoned prior to the deployment of the second pilot chute and second stage main parachute once at subsonic speeds. The second stage main parachute has a ring-slot design and is 35 m in diameter, the largest to ever fly on Mars.

The second pilot chute remains attached to the main parachute in order to prevent rebound of the deployed parachute. During latter stages of the descent (not pictured) the aeroshell's front heatshield will be discarded, and the landing platform will be released for its final descent and propulsive braking phase. Once safely on the surface, it will subsequently deploy ramps for the rover to drive down and on to Mars.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 07/22/2019 09:04 pm
LaRa transponder with its three antennas inside chamber

LaRa inside its thermal vacuum chamber during July 2019 testing, seen with its three antennas: two to transmit, for redundancy, and one to receive.

Related article: ExoMars radio science instrument readied for Red Planet (https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Engineering_Technology/ExoMars_radio_science_instrument_readied_for_Red_Planet)

http://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/07/LaRa_transponder_with_its_three_antennas_inside_chamber

Image credit: ESA–M. Cowan
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: AlexA on 08/09/2019 08:34 pm
"Problema ai paracadute della missione #ExoMars durante un test in Svezia: ha funzionato solo il paracadute pilota. La copia del lander, scesa più velocemente del previsto, sarà recuperata nei prossimi giorni. Ci saranno altri test nei prossimi mesi"
Translation:
"Mission parachute problem #ExoMars during a test in Sweden: only the pilot parachute worked. The copy of the lander, which fell faster than expected, will be recovered in the coming days. There will be more tests in the coming months"
https://mobile.twitter.com/andreabettini/status/1159848497761280002
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: AlexA on 08/12/2019 04:13 pm
ESA statement on the parachute test failure:
http://m.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/ExoMars_parachute_testing_continues
Highlights:
[The] high-altitude test, which was conducted on 5 August, this time just focusing on the larger, 35 m diameter, parachute.

Preliminary assessment shows that the initial steps were completed correctly, however damages to the canopy were observed prior to inflation, similar to the previous test. As a result, the test module descended under the drag of the pilot chute alone.
...
A further high-altitude test is already foreseen for the first main parachute before the end of this year. The next qualification attempt of the second main parachute is then anticipated for early 2020.
...
Furthermore, in addition to the regular forum of exchanges between ESA and NASA experts, a workshop of Mars parachute specialists will convene next month to share knowledge.

“Getting to Mars and in particular landing on Mars is very difficult,” adds Francois. “We are committed to flying a system that will safely deliver our payload to the surface of the Mars in order to conduct its unique science mission.”
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 08/14/2019 06:23 am
More quotes.

Quote
The May test went largely to plan, with all four chutes deploying in their desired sequence, but both main chutes sustained damage along the way. The same was true during the new round of testing, but ESA notes that it appears that the damage occurred prior to the larger chute fully inflating.

“It is disappointing that the precautionary design adaptations introduced following the anomalies of the last test have not helped us to pass the second test successfully, but as always we remain focused and are working to understand and correct the flaw in order to launch next year,” ESA’s Francois Spoto said in a statement. “We are committed to flying a system that will safely deliver our payload to the surface of Mars in order to conduct its unique science mission.”

https://bgr.com/2019/08/13/exomars-parachute-2020-mission-failure/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 08/14/2019 04:08 pm
More quotes.

Quote
The May test went largely to plan, with all four chutes deploying in their desired sequence, but both main chutes sustained damage along the way. The same was true during the new round of testing, but ESA notes that it appears that the damage occurred prior to the larger chute fully inflating.

“It is disappointing that the precautionary design adaptations introduced following the anomalies of the last test have not helped us to pass the second test successfully, but as always we remain focused and are working to understand and correct the flaw in order to launch next year,” ESA’s Francois Spoto said in a statement. “We are committed to flying a system that will safely deliver our payload to the surface of Mars in order to conduct its unique science mission.”

https://bgr.com/2019/08/13/exomars-parachute-2020-mission-failure/

I thought that setup involved too many parachutes...although then again Huygens had 3 sets of its own.  Hopefully the issue can be addressed before launch date arrives.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 08/14/2019 08:57 pm
"But the rest of the play was great, Mrs. Lincoln..."

Progress of rover integration from ExoMars parachute failures could jeopardize 2020 launch date (https://spaceflightnow.com/2019/08/13/exomars-parachute-failures-could-jeopardize-2020-launch-date/), dated August 13:
Quote
Jorge Vago, ESA’s ExoMars project scientist, said July 26 that the teams at Airbus in Stevenage have mated the main structure of the Rosalind Franklin rover with the Analytical Laboratory Drawer, an instrument box which holds equipment to deliver rock and soil samples to three scientific instruments housed inside the container.
<snip>
“At the moment, on the rover, the only thing that is missing is the locomotion system,” Vago said in a July 26 presentation to NASA’s Mars Exploration Program Analysis Group. “Everything else has been already mounted.”
And:
Quote
In March, the Kazachok landing platform arrived at a Thales Alenia Space facility in Turin, Italy, from its NPO Lavochkin factory in Russia. More descent module components, such as the aerodynamic shield and the lander’s solar panels, arrived in Italy from Russia in June.

The ExoMars cruise stage, which will carry the lander and rover to Mars, arrived at Thales Alenia Space’s Turin site in April from its manufacturer OHB System in Germany.

Once complete, the Rosalind Franklin rover will ship from the United Kingdom to an Airbus facility in Toulouse, France, for environmental testing, according to ESA.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 08/15/2019 05:50 pm
Cross-post; removed my original post and replaced it with the reply to it:
Cross-post:
True?
https://sputniknews.com/society/201908151076557279-roscosmos-postpones-mars-exploration-mission-after-failed-parachute-tests/
Quote
Russian State Space Corporation Roscosmos said in a statement on Thursday that the launch of the joint Russian-European ExoMars-2020 astrobiology mission, aimed at searching for evidence of life on Mars, had been postponed after the recent failure of tests of the parachutes needed for the landing.
Quote
"The launch of the ExoMars-2020 mission is planned to take place during the 'astronomic window' from July 26-August 13, 2020, with landing on Mars scheduled for March 2021," Roscosmos said.
Formally not true -- Roscosmos in its statement did not announce a postponement of launch: https://www.roscosmos.ru/26667/
Nevertheless, two failures in testing parachute system (May 28 and August 5) do require much additional work with an attempt of qual testing scheduled for early 2020. One may doubt if there is enough time before the launch window of July 26 -- August 13.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 08/23/2019 07:04 pm
Rover: All instruments onboard Rosalind Franklin rover (https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/All_instruments_onboard_Rosalind_Franklin_rover)

Parachutes: They have scheduled two new parachute tests. First on November of 2019 and the second on early 2020. Tests will be conducted in Oregon. Note: I have not found links of this info in English language (only in Spanish and French).

https://www.elmundo.es/ciencia-y-salud/ciencia/2019/08/22/5d5bd966fc6c8324628b4635.html

Quote
... los responsables de la ESA no descartan todavía que la misión pueda lanzarse en la fecha prevista. Todo dependerá de los paracaídas. Según explica Francois Spoto, en la agenda hay previstos otros dos test del sistema de descenso, en noviembre de 2019 y 2020

https://www.futura-sciences.com/sciences/actualites/mars-exomars-2020-nouvel-echec-tests-parachutes-an-lancement-49427/

Quote
D'ici là, deux autres campagne d'essais sont encore prévues « où un composite représentant le module de descente sera largué d'un ballon stratosphérique à environ 30 km d'altitude : en fin d'année pour le parachute principal de 15 m et début 2020 pour celui de 35 mètres ». Ces deux tests sont planifiés aux États-Unis, dans l'État de l'Oregon en raison de la fermeture saisonnière de la base Esrange, en Suède, qui ne redeviendra disponible pour de telles campagnes qu'en mai 2020.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 08/23/2019 08:18 pm
English language:

Quote
Cameras, drills and other scientific instruments have been installed on the new UK-led Rosalind Franklin rover that will search the surface of Mars for signs of life.

https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/news/uk-built-mars-rover-rosalind-franklin-science-instruments-installed/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Olaf on 08/27/2019 04:51 pm
https://twitter.com/AirbusSpace/status/1166297248831037440
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 09/05/2019 11:32 am
https://twitter.com/roscosmos/status/1167474065118023680 (https://twitter.com/roscosmos/status/1167474065118023680)


https://twitter.com/roscosmos/status/1167466746548248576 (https://twitter.com/roscosmos/status/1167466746548248576)

Missed these updates of the mechanical joining of the descent and orbital modules.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Rondaz on 09/06/2019 01:02 pm
.@ESA_ExoMars passes critical milestone, bringing us closer to the #RedPlanet! 📷#ExoMars team in #Turin #lifeonmars #spaceforlife..

https://twitter.com/Thales_Alenia_S/status/1169879212041228288
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 09/07/2019 12:59 am
Has there been any word on the parachute problem?
Title: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 09/10/2019 03:24 pm
Sounds like achieving the launch date as currently set is going to be challenging at the very least.

Quote
The problems with the parachutes may be worse than has publicly been reported, however. Ars has learned of at least one other parachute failure during testing of the ExoMars lander. Moreover, the agency has yet to conduct even a single successful test of the parachute canopy that is supposed to deploy at supersonic speeds, higher in the Martian atmosphere.

Efforts to obtain a comment from the European Space Agency about this information, or the likelihood of a slip past present 2020 launch date, were unsuccessful. After a spokeswoman with the European Space Agency offered to look into the matter on September, 4, there has been no further response.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/europes-mars-lander-parachute-problems-may-be-worse-than-thought/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Olaf on 09/18/2019 06:19 pm
https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/1174367577704976384
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 09/18/2019 10:24 pm
From ESA turns to NASA to assist in crucial ExoMars parachute tests (https://spacenews.com/esa-turns-to-nasa-to-assist-in-crucial-exomars-parachute-tests/), dated September 18:
Quote
ESA is preparing two new high-altitude tests of the supersonic and subsonic main chutes for the entry, descent and landing phase of the ExoMars mission, following failures in August and May.

The new tests, to be held in December and February, will test the 15-meter-diameter supersonic and 35-meter-wide subsonic parachutes needed to slow the descent of the ExoMars lander.

Both tests, to be held at high altitude to simulate the Martian atmosphere, need to succeed in order for the parachutes to pass qualification. TheExoMars mission faces a final review scheduled April 2020, Francois Spoto, ExoMars program manager, told SpaceNews.

“Now the situation is critical, of course, because we have limited time and no margin,” Spoto says.

If one of the tests fails, the ExoMars mission will miss the narrow July 25 to Aug. 13 launch window next year and slip to the next window, in late 2022.
<snip>
[ExoMars] will employ a complex system of four parachutes, with two small pilot chutes used to sequential deploy the supersonic ‘disc–gap band’ chute and subsonic main chute.
<snip>
ESA convened a workshop early September as part of efforts to identify and address the issues. Following this, inspectors from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory visited facilities involved in the parachute systems, Spoto says.

The findings from the JPL team indicate that the damage to the chutes was caused at the point of extraction from their bags. The failed tests also saw damage to cables holding the parachutes, but this was likely related to asymmetries resulting from the damage to the canopies.

“The focus is on adapting and simplifying the bag [rather] than touching the parachutes,” says Spoto. A meeting at European Space Research and Technology Center, ESTEC, in the Netherlands with industry partners involved in the parachute project was to be held Wednesday to decide the measures to be taken ahead of the next tests.
<snip>
While previous tests were held at the Esrange Space Center, northern Sweden, the new tests will take place in Oregon in the United States. Esrange closes late August due to conditions in the upper atmosphere and safety concerns related to dropping heavy components following the start of the local hunting season.
<snip>
The unprecedented size and complexity of the parachute system is related to the lander, being provided by Roscosmos. A more powerful retropropulsive system on the lander could have allowed the mission to require only one main chute, Spoto says.

The chutes will slow descent for the six-minute entry, descent and landing process, with the retropropulsion stage starting around 30-40 seconds prior to landing.
<snip>
A Mars sample return mission in collaboration with NASA will be one of the proposals for ESA’s Ministerial Council in November this year but, if approved, will not utilise a European-developed parachute.

In other news...
Quote
The lander and rover segments are meanwhile progressing well and ready for environmental testing.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Yeknom-Ecaps on 09/19/2019 03:34 am
Where in Oregon would these tests take place?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 09/25/2019 08:31 am
09/24/2019 19:35

ExoMars 2020 passes ground test phase

In early September 2019, by joint efforts of specialists of the S.A. Lavochkina (part of Roscosmos State Corporation) and Thales Alenia Space Italia (Italy) completed the final packaging of the ExoMars-2020 composite spacecraft and auxiliary equipment in a special transportation container. The work was carried out in order to prepare for shipping the product to France for the next stage of ground testing.

Accompanied by TASinI experts and NGO Lavochkin, the device in a shipping container was loaded on September 8 and sent by special freight transport to TASinF (Cannes, France). Upon arrival at TASinF, the following operations were carried out:

Unpacking ExoMars-2020,
his visual inspection
checking the readings of shock sensors,
turning on the device,

checking the functioning of devices after transportation.
There were no comments on the results of the entrance control in the TASinF territory. Currently, the ExoMars-2020 spacecraft is located in a finishing tent and undergoes a cycle of functional and complex tests of all on-board devices and systems. After the completion of functional tests, the product will be moved to a thermal vacuum chamber for conducting complex tests in an environment close to the conditions of the apparatus in outer space.

The ExoMars 2020 mission is the second stage of the largest joint project of Roscosmos State Corporation and the European Space Agency to study the surface and subsurface layer of Mars in close proximity to the landing site, conduct geological research and search for traces of the possible existence of life on the planet. He will open a new stage in space exploration for the world scientific community.

The start of the mission is planned as part of the "astronomical window" July 26 - August 13, 2020.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/26850/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 10/09/2019 06:54 am
10/07/2019 16:10

Ground testing mission ExoMars-2020

In early October 2019, at the S.A. Lavochkina successfully completed tests for the disclosure of the ramps of the landing module of the ExoMars-2020 mission. The operations were carried out from September 30 to October 1 according to the program and test method for dynamic and static strength using a weightless system.

A sequential opening of each of the four ladders with the regular operation of the detonation locks has been performed. The tests were completed with a positive result, the design was confirmed to work after exposure to regular dynamic and static loads.

The ExoMars 2020 mission is the second stage of the largest joint project of Roscosmos State Corporation and the European Space Agency for the study of the surface and subsurface layer of Mars in close proximity to the landing site, geological research and the search for traces of the possible existence of life on the planet. He will open a new stage in space exploration for the world scientific community.

The start of the mission is planned as part of the "astronomical window" July 26 - August 13, 2020.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/26899/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 10/15/2019 09:37 am
https://twitter.com/esa_exomars/status/1184037660551254021

Quote
Latest update on the way forward with parachute testing before #ExoMars launch next year:
esa.int/Science_Explor…

Quote
EXOMARS PARACHUTE PROGRESS

15 October 2019

Positive steps towards solving the problems discovered with the ExoMars mission parachutes have been taken in the last month to keep on track for the July-August 2020 launch window.

The mission needs two parachutes – each with its own pilot chute for extraction – to help slow the descent module prior to landing on Mars. Once the atmospheric drag has slowed the descent module from around 21 000 km/h to 1700 km/h, the first parachute will be deployed. Some 20 seconds later, at about 400 km/h, the second parachute will open. Following separation of the parachutes about 1 km above ground the braking engines will kick in to safely deliver a landing platform – with a rover encapsulated inside – onto the surface of Mars for its scientific mission. The entire sequence from atmospheric entry to landing takes just six minutes.

While the deployment sequence of all four parachutes was successfully tested in high altitude drop tests earlier this year, damage to the 15 m-diameter primary parachute and 35 m-diameter secondary parachute canopy was observed. Despite precautionary design adaptations being introduced for a second test of the 35 m parachute, canopy damage occurred again.

A thorough inspection of all the recovered hardware has since been completed, allowing the team to define dedicated design adaptations to both primary and secondary main parachutes. Some promising design changes will also be applied to the parachute bags to ease the lines and canopy exit from the bags, avoiding frictional damage.

ESA has also requested support from NASA to benefit from their hands-on parachute experience. This cooperation gives access to special test equipment at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory that will enable ESA to conduct multiple dynamic extraction tests on the ground in order to validate any foreseen design adaptations prior to the upcoming high altitude drop tests.

The next opportunities for high altitude drop tests are at a range in Oregon, US, January–March. ESA is working to complete the tests of both the 15 m and 35 m parachute prior to the ExoMars project’s ‘qualification acceptance review’, which is planned for the end of April in order to meet the mission launch window (26 July–11 Aug 2020).

The qualified parachute assembly, inside its flight canister, should ideally be integrated into the spacecraft prior to shipment to Baikonur in April, but it is also possible to do so during the spacecraft preparation activities at the launch site in May.

The mission will launch on a Proton rocket, and a carrier module will transport the composite descent module, Kazachok lander platform and Rosalind Franklin rover to Mars, arriving in March 2021. After driving off the surface platform, Rosalind Franklin rover will explore the surface of Mars, seeking out geologically interesting sites to drill below the surface, to determine if life ever existed on our neighbour planet.

The rover is currently undergoing its environmental test campaign at Airbus Toulouse, France. At the same time, the flight carrier module containing the descent module and lander platform is completing its final round of testing at Thales Alenia Space, Cannes, France. The rover will be integrated into the spacecraft in early 2020.

All parachute system qualification activities are managed and conducted by a joint team involving the ESA project (supported by Technical Directorate expertise), TASinI (prime contractor), TASinF (PAS lead), Vorticity (parachute design and test analysis) and Arescosmo (parachute and bags manufacturing).

The ExoMars programme is a joint endeavour between ESA and Roscosmos. In addition to the 2020 mission, it also includes the Trace Gas Orbiter (TGO) launched in 2016. The TGO is already both delivering important scientific results of its own and relaying data from NASA’s Curiosity Mars rover and InSight lander. It will also relay the data from the ExoMars 2020 mission once it arrives at Mars in March 2021.

For further information, please contact:
ESA Newsroom and Media Relations
Email: [email protected]

http://m.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/ExoMars_parachute_progress
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: spacexplorer on 10/15/2019 12:08 pm
Summary:
* 28/jun/2019 - 1st test: slight canopy damage (http://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/ExoMars_2020_progress_and_challenges)
* redesign of parachute container
* 12/aug/2019 - 2nd test: same slight canopy damage (http://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/ExoMars_parachute_testing_continues)
* 15/oct/2019 - NASA support (http://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/ExoMars_parachute_progress)
* jan/2020-mar/2020 - 3rd (15 m) and 4th (35 m) tests.
* 26/jul/2020–11/aug/020 - Launch window




Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: anik on 10/15/2019 12:13 pm
* jan/2020-mar/2020 - 3rd test

Third (15 m) and fourth (35 m) tests.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 10/15/2019 07:14 pm
https://youtu.be/enxNSinY4NQ
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 10/16/2019 03:57 am
Where in Oregon would these tests take place?

Apparently, Tillamook, Oregon.
Tillamook UAS Test Range (https://tillamookuas.com/test-range/)
Quote
TUTR’s primary facility, the Johnson Near Space Center (JNSC) is located 60 Miles west of Portland at the Tillamook airport (KTMK). KTMK is an uncontrolled Airport, 3 miles south of Tillamook co-located with the Port of Tillamook Bay Industrial Park/Blimp Hanger. The operations area covers 32,000 square miles in Western Oregon, from Coast to Cascades and Columbia River to California border.

Local airspace is Class G and E with access to Class D, and High Altitude Operations extending through above Class A. The test range has the flexibility to operate in many environments over a very large operations area.  We operate under three pre-coordinated LOAs, access to Special Use Airspace (W-570), and a 32,000 square mile operations area allocated to the test center by the FAA.

Low, Medium, and High Altitude Flight Testing
(SFC to 130,000’)

Tillamook UAS Test Range utilizes new High Altitude COA to enable drone flights at the edge of space (https://nsc.aero/2016/10/06/tillamook-uas-test-range-utilizes-new-high-altitude-coa-enable-drone-flights-edge-space/)
Quote
...a unique FAA High Altitude Certificate Of Authorization (COA).
Title: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 12/01/2019 08:19 pm
It’s good to see ESA willing to seek help from another agency, especially as NASA has more experience with Mars parachutes.

Quote
Getting a probe safely to the surface of Mars is not easy: Numerous landing attempts have crashed. Sufficiently slowing a lander in the thin air requires plenty of sophisticated kit, including designer heat shields, powerful retrorockets, and, sometimes, giant airbags. But the European-Russian ExoMars mission is struggling with a bit of technology that hails from the 18th century: parachutes. High-altitude tests earlier this year revealed that ExoMars's chutes were tearing as they were pulled from their bags. The European Space Agency has turned to NASA colleagues for help, and this week, a joint team begins tests to see whether redesigned bags and chutes now work, and if not, why. It could be their last chance to fix the problem and preserve a launch scheduled for July 2020—or face another 2 years of delay.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6469/1061
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 12/05/2019 01:49 am
Full steam ahead for TVAC testing for ExoMars (https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2019/12/full-steam-ahead-for-tvac-testing-for-exomars.html)
Airbus-assembled ExoMars rover will be thermal vacuum tested for two weeks

Toulouse, 02 December 2019 – Testing of the ExoMars rover at Airbus in Toulouse has moved to the next stage with the start of the thermal vacuum testing (TVAC) which will last about 18 days.

The rover has been in Toulouse since late August undergoing a series of tests to prepare it for its flight to the Red Planet in 2020. The European Space Agency ExoMars project will feature the first rover designed to look for life on Mars.

As part of the TVAC testing the rover will be heated and cooled to simulate the harsh conditions of its journey through space, and the conditions it will have to endure on the surface of Mars. Temperatures will be set to mimic two “hot” and two “cold” Martian days or sols – a sol lasts 24 hours, 39 minutes and 35 seconds.

The team from Airbus in Stevenage is working hand in hand, together with Thales Alenia Space and with their Airbus colleagues in Toulouse to ensure the rover is ready for its next phase on its journey for being integrated in Cannes into the Descent Module of the Spacecraft Composite prior to be sent to Baikonur for the launch in the July/August 2020 window.

ExoMars is a European Space Agency programme executed in cooperation with the Russian Space Agency Roscosmos with contribution of NASA.  Thales Alenia Space is the ExoMars mission prime and the main other industrial partners are OHB for the carrier and Lavochkin for the descent module. The rover integration was completed at Airbus in the UK with Thales Alenia Space supplying the Analytical Laboratory Drawer, OHB the complex laboratory mechanisms, Leonardo providing the drill and nine different instrument teams from ESA Member States, NASA/JPL and IKI/Roscosmos providing its Pasteur payload set.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Eric Hedman on 12/16/2019 03:29 pm
Another story on ESA asking NASA for help on parachutes:

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/europe-calls-nasa-help-mars-21103688 (https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/europe-calls-nasa-help-mars-21103688)

Hopefully this helps get the mission flying this coming year.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Olaf on 12/19/2019 01:21 pm
https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1207663883726573576
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 01/16/2020 01:10 pm
ExoMars Rover completes environmental tests

The Rosalind Franklin rover of the joint ESA-Roscosmos ExoMars mission completed a series of environmental tests at the end of 2019 at Airbus, Toulouse, France. This included final thermal and vacuum tests where the Rover is heated and cooled to simulate the temperatures of its journey through space and on the surface of Mars. For example, Rosalind Franklin can expect temperatures dropping to –120°C outside, and –50 °C inside the rover once on Mars. It must also be able to operate in less than one hundredth of Earth’s atmospheric pressure – and in a carbon dioxide-rich atmosphere.

Last year the ‘structural and thermal model’ of the rover successfully completed a rigorous environmental test campaign; the latest round of tests subjected the real flight-model to the simulated space environment.

Now the focus moves to final checks on the rover systems. This includes checking the alignment of instruments working together, such as the imaging systems, and a final functional test of the integrated system after the environmental campaign. Once these verifications on the rover are completed, a functional check of the interfaces with the surface platform and descent module that will deliver it safely to the surface of Mars will be performed at Thales Alenia Space, Cannes, France.

The primary goal of the mission is to determine if there is or there has ever been life on Mars, and to better understand the history of water on the planet. The rover will seek out interesting geological locations to examine with its scientific tools and to drill to retrieve underground samples, on a quest to tackle these questions.

The mission is foreseen for launch in the launch window 26 July–11 August 2020 on a Russian Proton-M rocket with a Breeze-M upper stage from Baikonur, Kazakhstan, arriving at Mars 19 March 2021.

Credits: Airbus

http://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Images/2020/01/ExoMars_Rover_completes_environmental_tests
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 01/27/2020 04:03 pm
Heat shield delivered by Lavochkin to Thales Alenia Space in Cannes, where the rest of the spacecraft is undergoing testing:

https://twitter.com/roscosmos/status/1221762034959822849
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Mammutti on 01/30/2020 11:36 am
Quote
ExoMars-2020 instruments installed on the landing platform
January 29, 2020, 11:22 GMT
Space Research Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences and NPO Lavochkin specialists (part of Roscosmos) have finished installing the scientific equipment onto the ExoMars-2020 spacecraft landing platform.

The scientific equipment had been delivered to Thales Alenia Space France (Cannes, France) in the end of November 2019. The equipment successfully passed the incoming inspection and in the beginning of January 2020 all the 13 instruments were installed onto the ExoMars-2020 descent module landing platform.

The scientific equipment complex checks as part of the spacecraft are due to finish in March 2020. In May the spacecraft is to be sent to the Baikonur Cosmodrome for further launch preparations with the launch itself scheduled for July – beginning of August 2020.

The scientific equipment complex includes 13 instruments weighing 45 kilograms in total – providing long-term monitoring of climate conditions at Mars surface around the landing area; studying Mars atmosphere composition during the descent and on the surface; studying water occurrence in the subsurface layer; studying atmosphere and surface interaction; radiation situation monitoring at the landing site.

The scientific equipment was developed under the management of Space Research Institute. Eleven scientific instruments were created in Russia, two by the European scientific organizations. The equipment will be installed on the ExoMars-2020 spacecraft landing platform which after releasing Rosalind Franklin Mars rover (being developed under the management of the European Space Agency) will work for one Martian year as a long-term scientific and research station.

http://en.roscosmos.ru/21228/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 02/11/2020 01:39 pm
https://twitter.com/AirbusSpace/status/1227236433993388033

Rosalind traveling to the continent.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: PM3 on 02/11/2020 03:26 pm
Any news on the parachute testing?

Spacenews wrote in November:
Quote
One reason why ESA is confident that the problem could be corrected without delaying the launch is that the parachutes can be added late in the process of preparing the spacecraft for launch. “The advantage of the parachutes is that they can be integrated into the descent module very late on in the sequence,” Parker said. “As long as we have proven that the parachute works, it can be integrated very late in the assembly sequence.”

I guess this means: Dispite shipping of spacecraft, they may still be working on the chutes ...?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 02/11/2020 07:30 pm
How massive is ExoMars compared to the Curiosity/2020 rovers?  If it's similar or less I'd hope lending ESA a set of chutes based on those missions would be enough to aid ExoMars.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Jakdowski on 02/11/2020 09:21 pm
https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Images/2019/12/Rosalind_meets_Rosalind

https://exploration.esa.int/web/mars/-/60917-how-big-is-the-exomars-2020-mission

Its in between Curiosity and Spirit/Oppertunity

2 metres tall by 2.5 metres at the widest
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/14/2020 01:36 pm
https://twitter.com/esa_exomars/status/1228286800445280257

Quote
Trying times reveal the strength of a new relationship.

Together, the #ExoMars landing platform, carrier and descent modules endure compatibility tests to confirm they are ready for the #Mars journey.
 
📸: @Thales_Alenia_S

esa.int/ESA_Multimedia…
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 02/21/2020 09:30 am
Parachute qualification testing in the US delayed to next month:

https://ria.ru/20200219/1564947139.html

There are also other teething showstopping issues on the table, not mentioned in the article.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 02/24/2020 01:11 pm
24 February 2020

Call for Media: ESA and Roscosmos to discuss ExoMars plans

The heads of ESA and Russian state space corporation Roscosmos, will be meeting in Moscow on 12 March 2020 to discuss cooperation between the two organisations including the status of the ExoMars project and its progress towards launch readiness.

This meeting follows a working-level review of the rover and surface platform mission organised by the partners in late January.

ESA Director General Jan Wörner and Roscosmos Director General Dmitry Rogozin received a preliminary assessment from the joint project team on 3 February 2020 concerning the open work needed to authorise launch and requested that further assessments be made.

The heads of the two organisations will reconvene on 12 March to agree on the next steps.

The primary goal of the mission is to determine if there has ever been life on Mars, and to better understand the history of water on the planet.


Press Briefing
Location: 4 Khoromny lane, Moscow

Time: 14:00–15:00 Moscow standard time (12:00–13:00 CET)

Speakers:

Jan Wörner, Director General, ESA

Dmitry Rogozin, Director General, Roscosmos


The briefing will be streamed at https://www.esa.int/esawebtv

 
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 02/24/2020 09:57 pm
ExoMars 2022?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 02/25/2020 11:14 am
Quote
Europe's Mars rover will have to make a "pit stop" for a minor repair when it is moved from France to Italy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51616707
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/25/2020 02:46 pm
Write-up by Eric Berger:

Quote
Delay seems likely as parachute problems plague European Mars lander
"This plan will be examined by the two agency heads."

ERIC BERGER - 2/25/2020, 3:25 PM

The European and Russian space agencies have announced they will decide the fate of their ExoMars mission at a meeting on March 12.

The joint mission to deliver a rover and suite of scientific instruments to the surface of the red planet is set for a July on a Proton rocket from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan. However, serious questions were raised about the viability of the lander's complicated parachute systems last year and ongoing problems in testing them.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/02/delay-seems-likely-as-parachute-problems-plague-european-mars-lander/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: ccdengr on 02/25/2020 03:32 pm
How massive is ExoMars compared to the Curiosity/2020 rovers?  If it's similar or less I'd hope lending ESA a set of chutes based on those missions would be enough to aid ExoMars.
For reasons I haven't seen explained ("not invented here" seems likely to me), Exomars uses a parachute system completely unlike the time-tested JPL system, so it's not possible to just "lend them" anything.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: vjkane on 02/26/2020 12:52 am
My understanding is that the Russian supplied descent engines aren’t as powerful as NASA’s.  Therefore lather parachutes are needed for exonerated
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: russianhalo117 on 02/26/2020 03:27 am
How massive is ExoMars compared to the Curiosity/2020 rovers?  If it's similar or less I'd hope lending ESA a set of chutes based on those missions would be enough to aid ExoMars.
For reasons I haven't seen explained ("not invented here" seems likely to me), Exomars uses a parachute system completely unlike the time-tested JPL system, so it's not possible to just "lend them" anything.
Each JPL flight is custom. There are similarities but are tailored to Each mission.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Phil Stooke on 02/26/2020 03:48 am
"not invented here"

There is also considerable value in figuring out how do do something yourself rather than just getting it from someone else.  If you didn't invent it, you might want to invent an alternative just to know how to do it.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: ccdengr on 02/26/2020 04:35 am
If you didn't invent it, you might want to invent an alternative just to know how to do it.
Sure, if you avoid an embarrassing failure (e.g., Schiaparelli) or a launch slip.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: ccdengr on 02/26/2020 04:39 am
Each JPL flight is custom. There are similarities but are tailored to Each mission.
All have used a single disc-gap band parachute deployed supersonically, nothing like the four-chute system that Exomars is using.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 03/04/2020 01:57 pm
Lavochkin announcing good final tests of the propulsion module:

https://www.laspace.ru/press/news/international/20200303_PS_Test/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/12/2020 10:06 am
https://twitter.com/roscosmos/status/1238057470213398528

Quote
⚡ Roscosmos and @ESA and the have decided to postpone the launch of the second #ExoMars mission to 2022 — en.roscosmos.ru/21275/

Roscosmos (@Rogozin) and ESA (@janwoerner) heads agreed that further tests to the spacecraft with the final hardware and software are needed
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/12/2020 10:10 am
Quote
N° 6–2020: ExoMars to take off for the Red Planet in 2022

12 March 2020

The European Space Agency (ESA) and the Roscosmos Space Corporation have decided to postpone the launch of the second ExoMars mission to study the Red Planet to 2022.

The joint ESA-Roscosmos project team evaluated all the activities needed for an authorisation to launch, in order to analyse the risks and schedule. With due consideration of the recommendations provided by European and Russian Inspectors General, ExoMars experts have concluded that tests necessary to make all components of the spacecraft fit for the Mars adventure need more time to complete.

The primary goal of the mission is to determine if there has ever been life on Mars, and to better understand the history of water on the planet. The ExoMars rover, named Rosalind Franklin, includes a drill to access the sub-surface of Mars as well as a miniature life-search laboratory kept within an ultra-clean zone.

In the frame of a dedicated meeting, ESA and Roscosmos heads Jan Wörner and Dmitry Rogozin agreed that further tests to the spacecraft with the final hardware and software are needed. In addition, the parties had to recognise that the final phase of ExoMars activities are compromised by the general aggravation of the epidemiological situation in European countries.

"We have made a difficult but well-weighed decision to postpone the launch to 2022. It is driven primarily by the need to maximise the robustness of all ExoMars systems as well as force majeure circumstances related to exacerbation of the epidemiological situation in Europe which left our experts practically no possibility to proceed with travels to partner industries. I am confident that the steps that we and our European colleagues are taking to ensure mission success will be justified and will unquestionably bring solely positive results for the mission implementation," said Roscosmos Director General Dmitry Rogozin.

"We want to make ourselves 100% sure of a successful mission. We cannot allow ourselves any margin of error. More verification activities will ensure a safe trip and the best scientific results on Mars,” said ESA Director General Jan Wörner.

"I want to thank the teams in industry that have been working around the clock for nearly a year to complete assembly and environmental testing of the whole spacecraft. We are very much satisfied of the work that has gone into making a unique project a reality and we have a solid body of knowledge to complete the remaining work as quickly as possible."

To date, all flight hardware needed for the launch of ExoMars has been integrated in the spacecraft. The Kazachok landing platform is fully equipped with thirteen scientific instruments, and the Rosalind Franklin rover with its nine instruments recently passed final thermal and vacuum tests in France.

The latest ExoMars parachutes dynamic extraction tests have been completed successfully at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and the main parachutes are ready for the two final high-altitude drop tests in March in Oregon, US.

The descent module has been undergoing propulsion system qualification in the past month. The ExoMars descent module and landing platform have been undergoing environmental testing in Cannes, France, to confirm the spacecraft is ready to endure the harsh conditions of space on its journey to Mars.

The new schedule foresees a launch between August and October 2022. Celestial mechanics define that only relatively short launch windows (10 days each) every two years exist in which Mars can be reached from Earth.

ExoMars will be the first mission to search for signs of life at depths up to two metres below the martian surface, where biological signatures of life may be uniquely well preserved.

http://www.esa.int/Newsroom/Press_Releases/ExoMars_to_take_off_for_the_Red_Planet_in_2022
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2020 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 03/12/2020 02:04 pm
This is a bad development (but not unexpected). The knock-on effects can be serious too. A couple that immediately come to mind:

-it will cost ESA a lot of money that won't be available for other programs (same thing happened with MSL Curiosity slipping from 2009 to 2011, which was a $400+ million hit to the budget)
-ESA does not gain valuable experience with rover operations and design, this rover is not validated

Because ESA is expected to provide the fetch rover for the Mars sample return mission that NASA will launch in 2026, both those factors can affect those plans. I expect that NASA may now look at producing its own fetch rover for the mission.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 03/13/2020 07:33 am
This is a bad development (but not unexpected). The knock-on effects can be serious too. A couple that immediately come to mind:

-it will cost ESA a lot of money that won't be available for other programs (same thing happened with MSL Curiosity slipping from 2009 to 2011, which was a $400+ million hit to the budget)
-ESA does not gain valuable experience with rover operations and design, this rover is not validated

Because ESA is expected to provide the fetch rover for the Mars sample return mission that NASA will launch in 2026, both those factors can affect those plans. I expect that NASA may now look at producing its own fetch rover for the mission.
To be fair to ESA not all the factors delaying it were within their control. They could hardly be expected to have allowed for the outbreak of COVID-19 in their timelines. Which they do state was a factor in the delay.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 03/13/2020 09:56 am
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 03/13/2020 09:57 am
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 03/13/2020 11:22 am
https://youtu.be/wbnLlGO2hdM
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 03/13/2020 06:37 pm
This is a bad development (but not unexpected). The knock-on effects can be serious too. A couple that immediately come to mind:

-it will cost ESA a lot of money that won't be available for other programs (same thing happened with MSL Curiosity slipping from 2009 to 2011, which was a $400+ million hit to the budget)
-ESA does not gain valuable experience with rover operations and design, this rover is not validated

Because ESA is expected to provide the fetch rover for the Mars sample return mission that NASA will launch in 2026, both those factors can affect those plans. I expect that NASA may now look at producing its own fetch rover for the mission.
To be fair to ESA not all the factors delaying it were within their control. They could hardly be expected to have allowed for the outbreak of COVID-19 in their timelines. Which they do state was a factor in the delay.
The high-altitude parachute tests have not been completed.

IMHO, this mission would have been delayed to 2022, even without the (biological) virus.

(I do like the legitimate use of the term "force majeure" in the press release.)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 04/21/2020 08:04 pm
UAE Mars mission to ship to launch site (https://spacenews.com/uae-mars-mission-to-ship-to-launch-site/), dated April 20

Follow-on re: insufficient time to qualify avionics and parachutes for the 2020 launch window, and the pandemic:
Quote
Even without those technical problems, the pandemic would have likely delayed the mission, said Jorge Vago, ExoMars project scientist, during a separate presentation at the [April 17 online] MEPAG meeting.

“Had we been in a position in mid-March to still target a 2020 launch, by now it would have been impossible,” he said. “Our spacecraft is built in several places in Europe and Russia, so whenever we have to do tests we need to have people from many countries to converge at one location to take part in the tests. This has been heavily disrupted over the last month.”

Re: preparations for the 2022 launch window:
Quote
The mission is now working on various issues to support a 2022 launch, such as reinforcing hinges on the spacecraft’s solar panels. The project team is also studying trajectories for the 2022 launch that will allow the spacecraft to land in the same region of Mars, Oxia Planum, early enough in the day there so that its solar panels can charge up its batteries before nightfall.

And, the parachute testing:
Quote
ExoMars still has parachute testing to complete as well. Vago said tests of the parachute system, which were to take place in March in Oregon, have been delayed by the pandemic. Moreover, winds at that test site shift in May, which would further postpone the tests until at least the end of September. “This is a bit of a bummer,” he said.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 04/22/2020 05:14 pm
Cross-post re: launch and arrival windows:
https://ria.ru/20200422/1570384616.html
Google translate:
Quote
"One of the scenarios of the ExoMars-2022 mission, which is currently being analyzed, involves launching in late September or early October 2022 and landing in June 2023," Pishel said, adding that the final decision will be made jointly with Roscosmos.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 05/15/2020 02:44 pm
ExoMars rover upgrades and parachute tests

15/05/2020


The second ExoMars mission, scheduled for launch to the Red Planet in 2022, is taking advantage of the extra time to upgrade some of the rover’s instruments and get ready for the next parachute high-altitude drop tests.

The new launch date on the horizon is allowing more margin for replacements and repairs to the ExoMars Rosalind Franklin rover.

The solar panels that will help the rover survive the cold Martian nights will gain in strength. After some cracks were detected during the environmental tests earlier this year, new fasteners will be installed to reinforce the interface between panels and holding brackets at the Airbus facilities in Stevenage, in the UK.

The flight model of the rover remains at Thales Alenia Space in Turin, Italy, for routine maintenance operations, such as battery charge and cleanliness checks.

Strict microbiological controls are key to make sure that ExoMars does not introduce terrestrial contamination to the Red Planet. This is to comply with the stringent planetary protection requirements and to avoid false positives in the scientific measurements – what scientists call ‘forward contamination’.

Scientists and engineers are looking into replacing the secondary electronics box on the Mars Organic Molecule Analyser, MOMA, an instrument capable of detecting organic molecules and investigate the potential origin, evolution and distribution of life on Mars.

The infrared spectrometer that will analyse minerals on the surface, ISEM, might also be replaced with a spare model with better performance.

One of the cameras on top of the rover’s drill designed to acquire high-resolution and colour images of the rocks and soil around the rover – the Close-Up Imager, CLUPI – is having a software upgrade.

“The instruments were already in great shape, but having found the time to make these improvements is fantastic for our scientific mission on Mars,” says Jorge Vago, ESA’s ExoMars project scientist.


Parachutes ready for drop tests

New deployment bags for the parachutes of the ExoMars mission are cleared to go for final high-altitude drop tests. However, travel restrictions in response to the coronavirus pandemic have forced to postpone these tests from May to September 2020 at the earliest.

The dynamic extraction test campaign was a success. The updated design with eased lines and canopy exit proved to avoid tears at extraction velocities of 200 km/h, similar to the high speeds at which the parachutes will be pulled from their bags during the descent towards the surface of Mars.

“The meticulous folding of each parachute inside its bag is essential to guarantee a correct deployment,” explains Thierry Blancquaert, ExoMars spacecraft systems engineering team leader.

Just the folding of the second main parachute, which with 35 m of diameter will be the largest to ever fly on Mars, takes over three days.

A total of six ground-based tests saw the clean extraction of the parachutes from their bags, with no frictional damage, during a test campaign between November 2019 and January 2020 at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California, US.

These tests followed the high-altitude drop tests in 2019, during which critical damage to both parachute canopies was observed.

The two parachutes – each with its own pilot chute for extraction – are key to slow the ExoMars descent module before landing on the Red Planet. In just six minutes, the module goes from around 21 000 km/h during atmospheric entry to a soft landing at the surface.

The high-speed tests mimicked the extraction velocity the parachutes will experience during the descent phase, just a couple of minutes before touchdown. A compressed air cannon shot the bag horizontally, releasing the parachute as it will happen during the mission. 

“The extraction takes a split second, it all happens very quickly,” says Thierry. 

ESA benefitted from NASA’s hands-on parachute experience. The cooperation gave Europe access to special test equipment at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and the opportunity to run several dynamic extraction tests on a quick turnaround.

“It was a real challenge to organise this campaign so quickly with all the industry partners involved. The support provided by NASA was excellent and instrumental to the successful validation of our new parachute deployment bags,” adds Thierry. 

The next step, high-altitude drop tests at a test range in Oregon, US, will have to wait until the end of September 2020. This type of tests requires complex logistics and strict weather conditions for flight safety.

The test parachute embedded into its canister and mounted onto a drop test vehicle will be lifted to an altitude of nearly 30 km with a stratospheric helium balloon. This drop test vehicle will be released by telecommand and freefall until the test parachute sequence starts in pressure conditions similar to diving into the thin martian atmosphere.

These tests should demonstrate the capability of the main parachutes to deploy smoothly from their bags and to sustain the inflation loads without tearing.

http://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/ExoMars_rover_upgrades_and_parachute_tests
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 05/15/2020 02:45 pm
https://youtu.be/NOXbrfxLHEM
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: PM3 on 05/26/2020 06:18 pm
The nominal launch date of ExoMars 2020 is September 21, 2022.

Source? Both ESA (http://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars) and Roskosmos (http://en.roscosmos.ru/21275/) give a launch window from August to October 2021.
This is impossible.  Mars launch windows occur every 26 months.  Since there is one this summer (July-Aug 2020) the next window won't occur until Sept-Oct 2022.  No launch in 2021, at least not without enormous delta-V penalties, far beyond any currently existing LV.

Not every 26 months but every 779 days ~= 25.6 months. The current window starts at ~ mid July 2020; add 25,6 months and you have about end August / early September 2022. Also those Mars launch windows are not exactly repeating; every one looks a bit different.

If ESA and Roskosmos say August (which may mean late August), I would assume that they know what they are saying.

[Edit: The 2021 in the quote above of course was a typo. Should read 2022.]
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 06/23/2020 03:41 pm
https://twitter.com/Thales_Alenia_S/status/1275451926285410316
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 07/24/2020 07:46 am
Mars rover revival

As Mars exploration prepares for a rebirth, a European rover tunes up its gear for the challenges ahead.

Tomorrow, 23 July, ESA and dozens of industrial partners will assess the readiness of the ExoMars robotic explorer, named Rosalind Franklin, for a trip to the Red Planet in 2022. The European rover will drill down to two metres into the martian surface to sample the soil, analyse its composition and search for evidence of life buried underground.

The rover successfully proved that it is fit to endure the martian conditions during the environmental test campaign earlier this year in Toulouse, France. This laboratory on wheels withstood temperatures as low as –120°C and less than one hundredth of Earth’s atmospheric pressure to simulate the extremes of its journey through space and on the surface of Mars.

By the end of this week a more robust set of solar panels will begin its trip to reunite with the rover after some cracks were detected during those environmental tests. New fasteners are in place and will be on their way from the Airbus facilities in Stevenage, in the UK, to Thales Alenia Space in Turin, Italy, where the rover awaits power up at the beginning of August.

The disruptions caused by the coronavirus pandemic have added new obstacles for industry across Europe on the road to Mars. Parachute and interface tests are expected to resume in October.

New missions to Mars launch from a broad range of nations – while the United Arab Emirates’ historic first mission to Mars lifted off from Japan last Sunday, China is preparing to launch tomorrow its first rover to Mars, known as Tianwen-1. NASA’s Mars 2020 mission is set to take off with the Perseverance rover onboard next week, on July 30.

These missions focus on the search for evidence of life on the Red Planet and a better understanding of how Earth and Mars evolved so differently.

“We hope that ESA’s Rosalind Franklin rover will help write a new page in Mars exploration by allowing us to study organic molecules on the spot,” says Jorge Vago, ESA’s ExoMars project scientist.

Dr Rosalind Franklin, the prominent scientist behind the discovery of the structure of DNA, one of life’s most important molecules, would have been 100 years old on 25 July this year. Her niece, also named Rosalind Franklin in her memory, points out that the X-ray diffraction expert “never conceived science as a race of competitors.”

After a visit to ESA’s technical centre in the Netherlands last year, Rosalind believes that her aunt would have loved the ExoMars team spirit. “The work of ESA engineers on the rover struck me – they really do it for the results, not for themselves. This what Rosalind Franklin was all about: commitment and dedication to science,” said Rosalind from her home in California, US.

A series of talks and events is taking place around the globe this week to celebrate the centenary of this “woman of integrity who went after scientific discovery for the betterment of humankind”, as her niece describes her. The legacy of the scientist lives on today, and the ExoMars rover will help leave her symbolic footprint on Mars in 2023.

The ExoMars rover is part of the ExoMars programme, a joint endeavour between ESA and the Russian State Space Corporation, Roscosmos.

Credits: Airbus
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 09/02/2020 08:49 am
Russians have arrived in Turin :)
https://twitter.com/roscosmos/status/1301078446278352900
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 09/02/2020 02:02 pm
And the Rosalind Franklyn rover received its solar arrays:

https://twitter.com/Thales_Alenia_S/status/1301158011583574017
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 09/22/2020 07:26 am
Earthly views before changing planet:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Thales_Alenia_S/status/1308304164578111489
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 09/29/2020 02:13 pm
https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1310944943289106433
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 10/07/2020 03:04 pm
Integrated testing progressing:

https://twitter.com/Thales_Alenia_S/status/1313805625030303745
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 10/28/2020 11:30 am
Kazachok Surface Platform has been unpacked in Cannes after its arrival from Turin, and the mission's backshell separated to expose the lander and start testing once the Rosalind Franklin rover arrives (just shipped from Turin this weekend).

https://twitter.com/Thales_Alenia_S/status/1321417358758596608

https://twitter.com/Thales_Alenia_S/status/1321000364787773440
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 11/10/2020 11:06 am
Balancing work on the backshell has begun:

https://twitter.com/roscosmos/status/1326127571440906245
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/18/2020 09:32 am
Quote
ExoMars parachute testing moves forward
18/11/2020

The parachute system that will help deliver the Rosalind Franklin ExoMars rover to Mars has completed the first full-scale high altitude drop test with redesigned elements following two unsuccessful tests last year. Parachute extraction and deceleration proceeded as expected, the test vehicle landed safely and the test parachutes were recovered. However, some canopy damage occurred, pointing to the early inflation process for the focus of further improvements.

“Landing on Mars is extremely difficult, with no room for error,” says ExoMars Programme Team Leader Francois Spoto. “The latest test was a good step forward but is not yet the perfect outcome we are seeking. Therefore, we will use the extensive test data we have acquired to refine our approach, plan further tests and keep on track for our launch in September 2022.”

Parachute profile

The Rosalind Franklin rover and Kazachok surface platform are encapsulated inside a descent module that will be transported to Mars by a carrier module. The descent module is equipped with two parachutes – each with its own pilot chute for extraction – to help slow it down prior to landing on Mars. Once the atmospheric drag has slowed the descent module from around 21 000 km/h to 1700 km/h, the first parachute will be deployed. Some 20 seconds later, at about 400 km/h, the second parachute will open. Following separation of the parachutes about 1 km above ground the braking engines will kick in to safely deliver the landing platform onto the surface of Mars. The entire sequence from atmospheric entry to landing takes just six minutes.

The complete parachute descent system needs testing and verifying on Earth, for which high altitude drop tests play an essential role to help represent the low atmospheric pressure on Mars – a vital aspect when considering parachute inflation. 

New round of high altitude tests

The test conducted from Oregon, USA was delayed from March 2020 due to COVID-19 restrictions, forest fires and unfavorable wind conditions. Logistics re-planning and compatible weather finally enabled it to take place 9 November.

The test setup saw the drop test vehicle lofted to a height of 29 km in a stratospheric balloon.

The first main parachute had an upgraded parachute bag and a Kevlar reinforcement around the vent hem (that is, around the vent 'hole' in the centre of the parachute). The second main parachute had several reinforcement rings and an upgraded parachute bag, but not reinforced parachute lines, which are also planned. The fully upgraded second parachute will be used in a drop test at the Swedish Space Corporation Esrange facility in Kiruna, Sweden in mid-2021. The reinforcement rings were introduced to help prevent the dramatic tearing of the canopies witnessed during tests in 2019.

The timeline of the latest test, including extraction and deceleration, went exactly to plan. However, four tears in the canopy of the first main parachute and one in the second main parachute were found after recovery. The damage seemed to happen at the onset of the inflation, with the descent otherwise occurring nominally.

The team are now analysing the test data to determine further improvements for the next tests. Planning is underway for future tests in the first half of next year, to ‘qualify’ the complete parachute system ready for launch in September 2022.

Once safely in the Oxia Planum region of Mars in June 2023, the Rosalind Franklin rover will drive off the platform and begin its science mission. It will seek out geologically interesting sites to drill below the surface, to determine if life ever existed on our neighbour planet.

All parachute system qualification activities are managed and conducted by a joint team involving the ESA, TASinI (prime contractor), TASinF (PAS lead), Vorticity (parachute design and test analysis) and Arescosmo (parachute and bags manufacturing).

The ExoMars programme is a joint endeavour between ESA and Roscosmos. In addition to the 2022 mission, it also includes the Trace Gas Orbiter (TGO) launched in 2016. The TGO is already both delivering important scientific results of its own and relaying data from NASA’s Curiosity Mars rover and InSight lander. It will also relay the data from the ExoMars 2022 mission once it arrives at Mars in 2023.

For further information, please contact:

ESA Media Relations
Email: [email protected]

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/ExoMars_parachute_testing_moves_forward
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 11/26/2020 09:57 am
11/26/2020

Continuation of work on the ExoMars-2022 project

In the rover control center (Turin, Italy), as part of the continuation of work on the Russian-European project ExoMars-2022, experiments with a test model of the rover are being carried out. Using the test model, the rover operators simulate the complex actions of the Rosalind Franklin rover during an interplanetary flight, landing on Mars and the first days after landing.

The Rosalind Franklin rover will be installed on a landing platform named Kazachok. The Lavochkin Research and Production Association (part of the Roscosmos State Corporation) is the developer and manufacturer of the ExoMars-2022 landing platform and landing module. The latter will provide a soft landing on the surface of Mars.

After landing, before leaving the platform, the rover will have to perform a number of critical operations for 10 days in preparation for descent to the surface of Mars. This is the deployment of solar panels to power the rover, the first images to assess the landing site, obtaining a panoramic image from the highest point of view to assess the general landscape, turning and locking the wheels in the desired position.

“Ground tests with the rover and practicing a complex set of sequences are critical to the success of the mission. In future plans, we have to simulate the rover's exit from the landing platform, ”the European Space Agency noted.
Such rehearsals are planned to be repeated several times before arriving on Mars, and after the Rosalind Franklin descends the landing platform ramps onto Martian soil, the ground test model will be used to test complex actions and non-standard commands before loading them aboard the rover.

The ExoMars-2022 mission is the second stage of the largest joint project of the State Corporation Roscosmos and the European Space Agency for the study of the surface and subsurface layer of Mars in the immediate vicinity of the landing site, conducting geological research and searching for traces of the possible existence of life on the planet. It will open a new stage in space exploration for the world scientific community. The launch of the mission is scheduled within the "astronomical window" in August-September 2022. This period was chosen taking into account the ballistic conditions that allow launching from Earth to Mars every two years within two "windows" (short-term periods) of 10 days each.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/29608/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 12/08/2020 12:31 pm
All surface hardware mated together:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Thales_Alenia_S/status/1336258279715041284

https://mobile.twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1336236560661016576
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Star One on 12/08/2020 08:05 pm
BBC article covering the above.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-55229999
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 12/09/2020 07:35 am
12/08/2020

Continuation of work on the ExoMars-2022 project

In a special finishing chamber of Thales Alenia Space in Cannes (France), the joint efforts of Russian and European specialists ensured the installation of the rover on the landing platform, as well as electrical tests were carried out, including checking the data and power transmission between the platform and the rover. The landing platform with the rover installed on it forms a "landing module".

Subsequently, the landing module will be integrated into the landing module to determine the mass-inertial characteristics of the product and its dynamic balancing. It is not the last time that the two flight products dock. After completion of testing in Cannes, the rover will return to Thales Alenia Space's cleanrooms in Turin, Italy for further functional tests before being sent to the Baikonur Cosmodrome.

In the photo, the two landing ramps are open. Ladders are located on both sides of the landing platform, front and rear; after assessing the landing site, the rover team will be able to choose which direction is safer to lower the rover to begin scientific research on the surface of Mars.

The ExoMars-2022 mission  is the second stage of the largest joint project of the State Corporation Roscosmos and the European Space Agency to explore the surface and subsurface layer of Mars in the immediate vicinity of the landing site, conduct geological research and search for traces of the possible existence of life on the planet. It will open a new stage in space exploration for the world scientific community.

NPO Lavochkina (part of the Roscosmos State Corporation) is the main contractor and coordinator of the work on the Russian side, as well as the developer and manufacturer of the landing module and landing platform. The launch of the mission is scheduled within the "astronomical window" in August-September 2022. This period was chosen taking into account the ballistic conditions that allow launching from Earth to Mars every two years.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/29657/
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 03/05/2021 07:58 am
https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1367748546783547394?s=20
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 03/05/2021 08:12 am
https://youtu.be/ZIsRrYd5HY0
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 03/06/2021 05:28 pm
https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/ExoMars_goes_for_a_spin

Quote
New parachute test strategy

The two main parachutes that will help deliver the mission safely to the surface of Mars are scheduled for the next high altitude drop test in May/June this year, from Kiruna, Sweden. Following the high altitude drop test in November 2020, which saw some localised damages to both parachute canopies, a new way forward has been adopted.

“We have revised our strategy to give us the best chance possible in qualifying the ExoMars parachutes before the end of this year in order to meet our 2022 launch window,” says Thierry Blancquaert, acting ExoMars programme team leader. “We have therefore invited a second expert parachute manufacturer to contribute to the ExoMars programme by providing us with additional canopies to use in the upcoming opportunities.”

In addition to the parachutes from Arescosmo, newly manufactured parachutes from Airborne Systems, who helped deliver NASA’s Perseverance rover safely to Mars earlier this month, are also now being manufactured. Airborne Systems also supports the ground-based parachute extraction tests carried out at NASA/JPL.

Unlike the one-parachute and sky-crane approach used by NASA’s Perseverance rover to land on Mars, the ESA-Roscosmos ExoMars mission requires two main parachutes – each with its own pilot chute for extraction – to help slow the descent module as it plunges through the atmosphere.

The full deployment sequence was qualified in the first high altitude drop test in 2019 that saw a drop test vehicle deployed from an altitude of 29 km via stratospheric balloon. But in the same test, significant damage to the parachute canopies were observed. This led to a redesign of the parachute bag and a revised packing strategy, together with reinforcements to both parachute canopies. The modified bags and parachutes were successfully tested in the first high speed ground-based dynamic extraction tests at NASA/JPL’s facilities in December 2019. The original damages were also successfully replicated in a series of dedicated ground-based tests at the end of last year, confirming the root causes of the observed anomalies. The canopy damages observed in the November 2020 drop test were significantly less severe than what was observed during the 2019 test, and the inspection of the test data pointed to the early inflation process for subsequent improvements.

“The new parachute canopies are stronger and more robust, and the redesigned bags have already showed promising results, so we are looking forward to finalising the logistics for the next high altitude drop test opportunity in the May-June timeframe, from Kiruna, Sweden,” says Thierry.

As well as a new bag design, a revised approach to folding tackles the problem of the parachute lines twisting upon extraction, which had previously restricted the canopies’ ability to inflate correctly.

A follow-up high altitude drop test is anticipated from Oregon, USA, in the September-November timeframe to maximize the opportunities for testing. If needed, a final opportunity could be considered in February/March 2022 from Oregon.

In the months prior to the high altitude drop tests, slots are being planned using the ground-based dynamic extraction test facility to check the performance if any changes are made to the parachutes, folding or bags prior to flying them. High altitude drop tests require complex logistics and strict weather conditions, making them difficult to schedule, while the ground tests can be repeated on a quick turnaround, buying significantly more time in the test campaign and reducing risk by allowing more tests to be conducted on a short time frame.

“We have learned valuable lessons from the current race to parachute qualification, not least the need for a more robust testing of new technologies much earlier in the mission timeline when developing such complex missions,” says Francois Spoto, ESA’s Mars Exploration Group Leader. “Together with our large industry consortium and international partners we continue to push forward to overcome the final hurdles in order to bring Europe safely to Mars.”
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: bolun on 05/22/2021 12:31 pm
New ExoMars parachute ready for high altitude drop (http://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/New_ExoMars_parachute_ready_for_high_altitude_drop)

Quote
A series of ground-based high-speed extraction tests confirm the readiness of a new and upgraded parachute and bag system for a high-altitude drop test in early June, part of critical preparations to keep the ExoMars 2022 mission on track for its next launch window.

The tests, conducted with NASA/JPL’s dynamic extraction test rig in California, USA, focused on demonstrating the readiness of new equipment developed by Airborne Systems, as well as verifying changes to the parachute and bag provided by Arescosmo.

Quote
Further ground-based dynamic extraction test slots are anticipated during August to prepare for another pair of high-altitude drop tests foreseen for October/November this year, from Oregon, USA. Further high-altitude test opportunities are also considered during the first half of 2022. Subsequent test configurations will largely depend on the outcome of the upcoming tests in Kiruna, although it is expected to repeat successful tests at least once more.

ExoMars parachute extraction tests – Arescosmo (video)

http://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Videos/2021/05/ExoMars_parachute_extraction_tests_Arescosmo
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 06/03/2021 02:52 pm
Some testing woes for the high-altitude release:

https://twitter.com/LaunchStuff/status/1400302922605416449
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 06/04/2021 10:33 am
Rosalind Franklin's twin (high-fidelity STA) roving around in Turinese Mars.

https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1400761564303609863 (https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1400761564303609863)
https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1400757348038291460
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Mammutti on 07/02/2021 10:51 am
Quote from: ESA
After several weeks of bad weather and strong winds, the latest pair of high-altitude drop tests of the ExoMars parachutes took place in Kiruna, Sweden.  The 15 m-wide first stage main parachute performed flawlessly at supersonic speeds, while the 35 m-wide second stage parachute experienced one minor damage, but decelerated the mock-up of the landing platform as expected.

[...]

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/First_high-altitude_drop_test_success_for_ExoMars_parachute

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWqlh6T-PFk

Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: eeergo on 07/02/2021 11:03 am
Quote from: ESA
After several weeks of bad weather and strong winds, the latest pair of high-altitude drop tests of the ExoMars parachutes took place in Kiruna, Sweden.  The 15 m-wide first stage main parachute performed flawlessly at supersonic speeds, while the 35 m-wide second stage parachute experienced one minor damage, but decelerated the mock-up of the landing platform as expected.

[...]

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/First_high-altitude_drop_test_success_for_ExoMars_parachute

Progress! Hopefully solved soon, and the supersonic parachute appears to be fine.

Quote
“We’re very happy to report that the first main parachute performed perfectly: we have a supersonic parachute design that can fly to Mars,” says Thierry Blancquaert, ExoMars programme team leader, noting that “there will be at least two further opportunities to test this parachute design to gain further confidence”.

“The performance of the second main parachute was not perfect but much improved thanks to the adjustments made to the bag and canopy. After a smooth extraction from the bag, we experienced an unexpected detachment of the pilot chute during final inflation. This likely means that the main parachute canopy suffered extra pressure in certain parts. This created a tear that was contained by a Kevlar reinforcement ring. Despite that, it fulfilled its expected deceleration and the descent module was recovered in good state.”

The team will be looking in more detail into the origin of this new anomaly before finalising the configuration of the next pair of drop tests foreseen to take place in October/November 2021 from Oregon, USA. Earlier issues due to the friction between canopy and bag now seem to be resolved.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: jacqmans on 08/02/2021 11:41 am
Science in motion for ExoMars twin rover
02/08/2021

The first science tests for the ExoMars rover replica kicked off after several weeks of driving tests around the Mars Terrain Simulator at the ALTEC premises in Turin, Italy.

With the locomotion system up and running, it is time now for the rover’s cameras and instruments to scan a Mars-like terrain – both on and under the surface – in search for the best samples.

The twin of ESA’s Rosalind Franklin rover, also known as The Ground Test Model (GTM), has been busy surveying 64 square metres of terrain in one of Europe’s largest Mars yards, carefully staged with sandy areas and rocks of various sizes, as well as gravity and light simulations to recreate the environment on Mars.

See, snap, survey

Imaging comes first. Two stereo cameras at the top and at the bottom of the rover’s mast – NavCam and LocCam – allow the GTM to ‘see’ in three dimensions and identify the rocks and slopes ahead. The cameras guide the rover through safe paths and help avoid hazards.

Once the rover is on the move, two more sets of cameras – PanCam and CLUPI – come into play to get a whole picture of the site with high resolution imaging. These rover ‘eyes’ send panoramic and close-up images of the terrain to the operators at the Rover Operations Control Centre (ROCC). Teams from Thales Alenia Space and ALTEC worked in synergy with ESA engineers.

The images are essential to map the geological context and to help the scientists decide where the rover should stop and survey the surface in more detail.

Choosing the target

Finding suitable samples involves a lot more than just spotting an outcrop and digging. The rover is equipped with a ground penetrating radar – WISDOM – and a neutron detector – ADRON– to understand what lies beneath the surface.

The search for evidence of life on Mars is a main objective of the ExoMars 2022 mission.

If anywhere on Mars, traces of past or present life are most likely to be found underground, where ancient biological signatures may still be preserved from the harsh radiation on the Red Planet.

Much as archaeologists on Earth excavate sites, WISDOM can work by analysing the area in a grid fashion – by breaking the ground into small squares. The neutron spectrometer in ADRON will work in tandem with the radar to detect water and hydrated minerals below the surface.

Test cases for Mars

Operators are rehearsing all possible mission scenarios to prepare for Rosalind Franklin’s arrival in Oxia Planum on Mars in June 2023.

The first tests with science in action started with the rover doing a traverse to characterise a sandy and flat area. After roving for a while, the cameras fed the operators with stereo and high-resolution images.

Once a location deemed intriguing enough to drill for samples is found, it was time to get more information from beneath the surface.

The ground penetrating radar WISDOM ran its science analysis every 10 cm for 30 seconds. Once the wheeled lab covered five metres, it performed two turns of 90 degrees and started all over again on a new five-metre track. At the end of the test, WISDOM scanned a grid of 25 square metres.

A second test repeated this sequence, this time around with a much longer drive of eight metres for a more far-reaching science acquisition. And instead of stopping every half a metre, the GTM used WISDOM every metre.

In both cases, the sequence was completed by the neutron detector, Adron, which took measurements looking for traces of water. Next up was the execution of a complete WISDOM grid of 25 square metres.


Where to drill?

These dry runs simulate the sequences the rover will follow on Mars, where the scientists will need to decide which area is worth drilling. Rosalind Franklin is fitted with a drill to extract samples down to a maximum of two metres, deeper than any other rover and a first in Mars exploration.

As a bonus during this first science dry run, the rover attempted some drilling at various depths and through a layer of sample material selected by the ExoMars team.

On Mars, the sample collected by the drill will be crushed into a fine powder and delivered to the analytical laboratory at the heart of the rover to analyse its mineralogy and chemistry.

With no summer break for the rover, upcoming tests at the Mars Terrain Simulator will involve the analysis of samples inside the rover’s analytical lab. A suite of instruments – MicrOmega, Raman and MOMA – will study the mineralogical and molecular composition of the soil.

During the real mission to the Red Planet, the results of this analysis could answer questions about the potential origin, evolution and distribution of life on Mars

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/Science_in_motion_for_ExoMars_twin_rover
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Steve G on 08/02/2021 02:18 pm
What gives me the willies isn't the parachute, it's the RMCS (Russian Mars Curse Syndrome), as it's up to the Russian lander to pull off the landing. Based on the Nauka fiasco, one cannot have an overwhelming sense of confidence in Russian technology and pulling off the landing. Talking about seven minutes of terror.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: redliox on 08/02/2021 02:32 pm
What gives me the willies isn't the parachute, it's the RMCS (Russian Mars Curse Syndrome), as it's up to the Russian lander to pull off the landing. Based on the Nauka fiasco, one cannot have an overwhelming sense of confidence in Russian technology and pulling off the landing. Talking about seven minutes of terror.

I agree and was about to mention Nauka.  2 different projects, but the common link is Roscosmos constantly lacking funding.  On top of that Russia, let alone it's Soviet predecessor, hasn't had a solid success at Mars except the Exomars TGO, and that's ESA-heavy.  I just sincerely hope ESA's hand can be enough to offset RMCS, but when I heard of ESA running to Russia after NASA (very stupidly) said no, crashed landings due to rusty Russian hardware came to mind.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: Blackstar on 08/02/2021 06:43 pm
I agree and was about to mention Nauka.  2 different projects, but the common link is Roscosmos constantly lacking funding.

I wouldn't sum it up so simply--it's not like if you just give them piles of cash that would fix everything. There are all kinds of other problems too. Maybe a lack of funding over decades could be the root cause, but by now there are going to be other issues like a lack of experienced personnel, an ineffective quality control process/system, lack of modern processes and test equipment, etc. Even if the money came back, they'd still have to do things like recruit and train new people, and gain experience, and that can take years.

I don't know the situation within the Russian space program, but I suspect that they put their best people on the military programs. So even if they recruit and train new people to the civil side, they'd still have to prevent them from getting poached to military projects.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform) - updates
Post by: vjkane on 08/02/2021 08:44 pm
I agree and was about to mention Nauka.  2 different projects, but the common link is Roscosmos constantly lacking funding.

I wouldn't sum it up so simply--it's not like if you just give them piles of cash that would fix everything. There are all kinds of other problems too. Maybe a lack of funding over decades could be the root cause, but by now there are going to be other issues like a lack of experienced personnel, an ineffective quality control process/system, lack of modern processes and test equipment, etc. Even if the money came back, they'd still have to do things like recruit and train new people, and gain experience, and that can take years.

I don't know the situation within the Russian space program, but I suspect that they put their best people on the military programs. So even if they recruit and train new people to the civil side, they'd still have to prevent them from getting poached to military projects.
If the Russian civilian program was doing this on their own, I'd be very worried. However, ESA's managers are aware of Russia's challenges, and I expect that they are providing appropriate support and requiring extra testing.

But this is a big risk.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 08/02/2021 11:29 pm
If the Russian civilian program was doing this on their own, I'd be very worried. However, ESA's managers are aware of Russia's challenges, and I expect that they are providing appropriate support and requiring extra testing.

But this is a big risk.

Would you want a bunch of newly-graduated engineers designing an airliner even if they have good supervisors? Or would you prefer highly-experienced engineers with good supervisors? The Russian space program lost a tremendous amount of talent in the 1990s and I don't think they ever regained any of it.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 08/03/2021 02:34 am
If the Russian civilian program was doing this on their own, I'd be very worried. However, ESA's managers are aware of Russia's challenges, and I expect that they are providing appropriate support and requiring extra testing.

But this is a big risk.

Would you want a bunch of newly-graduated engineers designing an airliner even if they have good supervisors? Or would you prefer highly-experienced engineers with good supervisors? The Russian space program lost a tremendous amount of talent in the 1990s and I don't think they ever regained any of it.
I agree. However, I want to see ExoMars 2022 succeed, and so I'm looking for a positive spin. And perhaps, because of the visibility, some engineers who otherwise would be working on military projects were assigned to this project.

But, I'm speculating because I've read nothing on this.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 08/03/2021 03:13 am
I agree. However, I want to see ExoMars 2022 succeed, and so I'm looking for a positive spin. And perhaps, because of the visibility, some engineers who otherwise would be working on military projects were assigned to this project.

But, I'm speculating because I've read nothing on this.

I also want to see it succeed. And ESA would not be in this situation if the US (not NASA--the directive came from above NASA) had not abrogated the NASA-ESA agreement that had been worked out in the later 2000s.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Star One on 08/03/2021 08:26 am
I agree. However, I want to see ExoMars 2022 succeed, and so I'm looking for a positive spin. And perhaps, because of the visibility, some engineers who otherwise would be working on military projects were assigned to this project.

But, I'm speculating because I've read nothing on this.

I also want to see it succeed. And ESA would not be in this situation if the US (not NASA--the directive came from above NASA) had not abrogated the NASA-ESA agreement that had been worked out in the later 2000s.
Exactly why was that decision taken by those above NASA?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 08/03/2021 01:11 pm
I agree. However, I want to see ExoMars 2022 succeed, and so I'm looking for a positive spin. And perhaps, because of the visibility, some engineers who otherwise would be working on military projects were assigned to this project.

But, I'm speculating because I've read nothing on this.

I also want to see it succeed. And ESA would not be in this situation if the US (not NASA--the directive came from above NASA) had not abrogated the NASA-ESA agreement that had been worked out in the later 2000s.
Exactly why was that decision taken by those above NASA?
In the late 2000's and early 2010's, NASA and ESA planned a joint rover or rover missions to be landed by a NASA supplied entry-descent-and-landing system. NASA was forced to end the joint program by offices in the White House, the Office of Management and Budget, I believe. ESA could not afford their own EDL system within their budget, so they partnered with Russia.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 08/03/2021 04:08 pm
I agree. However, I want to see ExoMars 2022 succeed, and so I'm looking for a positive spin. And perhaps, because of the visibility, some engineers who otherwise would be working on military projects were assigned to this project.

But, I'm speculating because I've read nothing on this.

I also want to see it succeed. And ESA would not be in this situation if the US (not NASA--the directive came from above NASA) had not abrogated the NASA-ESA agreement that had been worked out in the later 2000s.
Exactly why was that decision taken by those above NASA?

In the 2010 timeframe, when the "tea party" was all the rage and in control of the house, enormous amounts of science got cut across the federal government. The agreement with ESA was one of many things the US was forced to abandon.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 08/03/2021 05:28 pm
In the 2010 timeframe, when the "tea party" was all the rage and in control of the house, enormous amounts of science got cut across the federal government. The agreement with ESA was one of many things the US was forced to abandon.

No, this is wrong. vjkane got it right.

Except that you also need to add in the Trace Gas Orbiter. It was not just Mars landing cooperation that was ended.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: libra on 08/03/2021 07:00 pm
I vaguely remember the NASA decision as a major shock and frustration to Europe. It was not only done for the wrong reasons (mentionned by Vjkane) but also in a rather brutal way.

It echoed an earlier crisis in 1981 when NASA also threw ESA under a bus, related to what become Ulysses;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_(spacecraft)

Quote
ESA could not afford their own EDL system within their budget, so they partnered with Russia.

On paper at least, the Soviet EDL system should work. Problem: there had been so many failures earlier in the missions, it hasn't been tested properly since, what, 1973 ?  Mars M-71 and M-73 proved it worked but that was nearly half a century ago ! And the engineers that tested and built these probes are probably long gone.

Phobos did not went to Mars surface (and failed) Mars 96 was killed by its Proton, so was Phobos Grunt...

Not really reassuring indeed.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 08/03/2021 10:34 pm
I vaguely remember the NASA decision as a major shock and frustration to Europe. It was not only done for the wrong reasons (mentionned by Vjkane) but also in a rather brutal way.

It echoed an earlier crisis in 1981 when NASA also threw ESA under a bus, related to what become Ulysses;

Yes, brutal.

The NASA AA for science, Ed Weiler, had negotiated that deal with ESA a few years earlier (somebody could look it up). Weiler was very proud of it. Then it got killed. In DC space policy circles it was not well known why it got killed, but the knowledgeable speculation was that it was OMB that killed it, not a decision made higher up (although I find that a bit hard to believe). When I posed that to a person who was then not at NASA or in government but years later took a prominent space policy position, he speculated that this was just OMB doing what OMB does, and he explained to me the default assumptions that OMB uses:

1-they hate expensive programs, because it prevents them from moving money around in their spreadsheets;

2-they hate multi-part programs, like Mars sample return, because it commits NASA to spending more money in the future on the other required parts of the mission, and also because it prevents them from moving money around on their spreadsheets;

3-they hate international cooperative programs, for the same reasons as listed in 1 and 2.

That made a lot of sense to me, and when you consider that OMB continued throughout a big part of the 2010s to oppose Mars sample return, those baseline assumptions still hold.

Something that I heard at the time that I don't know if it is true is that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was not informed of the cancellation of the deal and was angered when she found out about it. You can imagine the reason why: suddenly European officials are complaining to her about something the Americans did and she was not given notice that it was going to happen. But again, I don't know if this is true. Somebody would have to ask whoever at the State Department handled space related issues back then.

Something that I never understood is why in addition to canceling the Mars landing agreement, they also killed US participation in the Trace Gas Orbiter program. The US had agreed to provide a launch vehicle for TGO, and when the deal was canceled, it left the Europeans to scramble and get a rocket. You would think that we could have at least upheld that part of the bargain. If I was with ESA, I'd be really ticked at the Americans for reneging on the entire deal.

This was also tied up with how the Obama administration viewed space at the time. They weren't hostile to it, but many people in the administration were indifferent to it. They didn't care about it. They wanted Earth science to be better funded, and they carved that money out of the planetary budget both because they didn't care about planetary, and they believed that planetary had been getting a lot of funding for many years and it was time to fund other priorities. So this indifference towards space also allowed something like this to happen. Somebody just said "Cut some money out of planetary, I don't care how you do it," and that was it.

Again, I don't have any direct knowledge of the above, but I was involved in the distant periphery, and I worked with a lot of people in the planetary science community at that time. As a former OMB budget examiner once explained to me, sometimes they would make significant budget decisions that might affect a lot of people simply because they needed to cover a budget gap somewhere else. So "cutting the budget" somewhere was really little more than just moving some money out of a cell in a spreadsheet and putting it somewhere else, not a deliberate policy choice.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: GClark on 08/04/2021 01:56 am
IIRC the situation with ExoMars wasn't helped much when the Decadal Survey (?) recommended capping US financial participation in TGO at the level of a Discovery mission.  They also made a recommendation about the Rover(s) but I cannot now remember what it was.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 08/04/2021 02:34 pm
IIRC the situation with ExoMars wasn't helped much when the Decadal Survey (?) recommended capping US financial participation in TGO at the level of a Discovery mission.  They also made a recommendation about the Rover(s) but I cannot now remember what it was.


I worked on the DS and I don't remember any TGO recommendation and I'm too lazy to look it up. But if it made that recommendation, it seems entirely reasonable to keep that participation in TGO capped, since it was not a mission that was considered high priority to the US Mars science community.

The rovers recommendation was more important. It was to split off the two rovers so that they did not fly on the same mission. Packing two different rovers built on different continents into the same landing vehicle was considered a recipe for disaster.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Star One on 09/03/2021 09:42 am
Drop tests for touchdown on Mars:

https://youtu.be/GXxURXMSgwQ
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: jacqmans on 09/15/2021 01:07 pm
First deep drilling success for ExoMars
15/09/2021

ESA’s Rosalind Franklin twin rover on Earth has drilled down and extracted samples 1.7 metres into the ground – much deeper than any other martian rover has ever attempted.

The successful collection of soil from a hard stone and its delivery to the laboratory inside the rover marks a promising milestone for the ExoMars 2022 mission.

“The long-awaited success of the ExoMars drill on Earth would be a first in Mars exploration,” says David Parker, ESA’s director of human and robotic exploration. The deepest any drill has dug on the Red Planet to date is 7 cm. 


The Rosalind Franklin rover is designed to drill deep enough, up to two metres, to get access to well-preserved organic material from four billion years ago, when conditions on the surface of Mars were more like those on infant Earth.

The replica, also known as the Ground Test Model, is fully representative of the rover set to land on Mars. The first samples have been collected as part of a series of tests at the Mars Terrain Simulator at the ALTEC premises in Turin, Italy. The drill was developed by Leonardo, while Thales Alenia Space is the prime contractor for ExoMars 2022.


Drill operations

Rosalind Franklin’s twin has been drilling into a well filled with a variety of rocks and soil layers. The first sample was taken from a block of cemented clay of medium hardness.

Drilling took place on a dedicated platform tilted at seven degrees to simulate the collection of a sample in a non-vertical position. The drill acquired the sample in the shape of a pellet of about 1 cm in diameter and 2 cm long.

Rosalind Franklin’s drill retains the sample with a shutter that prevents it from dropping out during retrieval. Once captured, the drill brings the sample to the surface and delivers it to the laboratory inside the rover.

With the drill completely retracted, the rock is dropped into a drawer at the front of the rover, which then withdraws and deposits the sample into a crushing station. The resulting powder is distributed to ovens and containers designed to perform the scientific analysis on Mars.

“The reliable acquisition of deep samples is key for ExoMars’ main science objective: to investigate the chemical composition —and possible signs of life— of soil that has not been subjected to damaging ionising radiation,” says ExoMars project scientist Jorge Vago.


A unique drill for Mars

The ExoMars drill is an assembly of mechanisms that rely on an automated choreography of tools and mounting rods. “The design and construction of the drill has been so complex that this first deep drilling is an extraordinary achievement for the team,” says Pietro Baglioni, ExoMars rover team leader.

Rosalind Franklin’s drill works on rotation. A series of tools and extension rods are fitted to form a ‘drill string’ and can reach the full 2m length when all are connected.

The drill can penetrate the ground at 60 rotations per minute, depending on the consistency of the soil. Digging into sandy or clay solid materials could take between 0.3 and 30 mm per minute.

The drill has also a two-degree of freedom positioner that allows it to discharge the sample at the right angle into the rover laboratory.

No easy feat
“Drilling hard stones to a depth of two metres on a mobile wheeled platform with less than 100 watts of power is a complex task,” explains Andrea Merlo, ExoMars Rover functional engineer from Thales Alenia Space.

Doing it on Earth is even more difficult because the Ground Test Model must be offloaded to recreate the weaker martian gravity level – Mars gravity is about one-third of Earth’s. The model hangs from the ceiling on a dedicated gravity compensation device.

Since the twin rover consists of models that are beyond their nominal lifetime, the team had to tune some parameters during the deep drilling test. “This already gives engineers a hint on how the system could degrade on Mars,” adds Andrea.

Tests to roving on Mars
The Ground Test Model has successfully completed a number of tests to move to and to identify targets while acquiring images and data. These dry runs to rehearse the rover operations on Mars started in June 2021.

The rover has demonstrated that it can follow precise trajectories and survey the environment on and below the surface with its instruments, including cameras, spectrometers and a sub-surface sounding radar and neutron detector.

In parallel, the real Rosalind Franklin rover is being prepared for its flight to Mars in nearly a year’s time – the launch window for ExoMars opens on 20 September 2022.

Notes to editors
The ExoMars programme is a joint endeavour between ESA and Roscosmos. In Europe, The rover is a joint venture between Thales Alenia Space – Italia (67%) and Leonardo (33%). Thales is the industrial prime, Leonardo providing the drill, OHB the complex laboratory mechanisms and nine different instrument teams from ESA Member States, NASA/JPL and IKI/Roscosmos providing the payload. Astrium Ltd. (ASU) is responsible for the rover vehicle.


https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/First_deep_drilling_success_for_ExoMars
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 09/17/2021 11:05 am
Video of the tests taking place in Turin these days:

https://twitter.com/ESA_fr/status/1438136997500043270
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 09/21/2021 12:02 am
Cross-post:
T-1 year...
https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1439960781458706435
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 11/10/2021 08:43 am
Slow cooking in Rome :)

https://twitter.com/mediainaf/status/1458143601376956418
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 11/10/2021 01:54 pm
Slow cooking in Rome :)

https://twitter.com/mediainaf/status/1458143601376956418
english translations (per google)
Slow cooking: 120 hours at 35º in the thermo-vacuum chamber of the Roman factory in
@Thales_Alenia_S
 for the #ExoMars mission rover
@ESA_ExoMars


The purpose? Remove any possible sources of contamination. All the details in the #VideoDelGiorno
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 12/03/2021 12:50 pm
So Rosalind Franklin is not just a rover... it's also a walker! Quite a cool demonstration from the test rover in "Torinese Mars":

https://mobile.twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1466715295377244164
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 12/14/2021 01:05 pm
Parachutes coming back around, both super- and subsonic. Both EU and US providers seem to be able to do the job, at least regarding the second stage parachutes:

https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1470674248847052804
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 01/18/2022 10:52 am
Amalia (Rosalind Franklin's sister rover for ground tests) is doing very well in tests in Altec's facilities in Turin. Check out my area supervisor, Andrea Merlo, narrating the test campaign while running around to monitor it (and move its cables) :)

https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1483350796737695745
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 01/24/2022 01:30 pm
SN, ExoMars on schedule for September launch (https://spacenews.com/exomars-on-schedule-for-september-launch/), January 21
Quote
ESA now believes it has solved the problems with the parachutes after some assistance from NASA. In December, ESA conducted high-altitude tests of the parachutes in Oregon, successfully deploying two different versions of the larger of the lander’s two parachutes, 35 meters in diameter.
<snip>
Those preparations, officials said, included repairing electronics on the descent module of the spacecraft. “It controls the main braking engine for the final landing on the surface of the red planet, and it’s one of the elements that caused the delay of the launch back in 2020,” said David Parker, director of human and robotic space exploration at ESA. There are ongoing tests of the electronics as well as software changes, he said.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: spacexplorer on 01/27/2022 10:26 am

Quote
Those preparations, officials said, included repairing electronics on the descent module of the spacecraft. “It controls the main braking engine for the final landing on the surface of the red planet, and it’s one of the elements that caused the delay of the launch back in 2020,”

Any detail on this? I thought parachute deployment was the only issue.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 01/27/2022 10:56 am

Quote
Those preparations, officials said, included repairing electronics on the descent module of the spacecraft. “It controls the main braking engine for the final landing on the surface of the red planet, and it’s one of the elements that caused the delay of the launch back in 2020,”

Any detail on this? I thought parachute deployment was the only issue.

It was the main showstopper, and it appears to be behind us at this point (although some further testing is needed to prove it more conclusively). However, there are subleading issues being addressed which are still significant.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: hektor on 02/22/2022 09:01 am
Another program in a strange context.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: hektor on 02/24/2022 01:46 pm
https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1496527966456758273?s=20 (https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1496527966456758273?s=20)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 02/28/2022 03:27 pm
"Regarding the ExoMars programme continuation, the sanctions and the wider context make a launch in 2022 very unlikely.  ESA’s Director General will analyse all the options and prepare a formal decision on the way forward by ESA Member States." [dated Feb 28]

ESA statement released today

https://www.esa.int/Newsroom/Press_Releases/ESA_statement_regarding_cooperation_with_Russia_following_a_meeting_with_Member_States_on_28_February_2022 (https://www.esa.int/Newsroom/Press_Releases/ESA_statement_regarding_cooperation_with_Russia_following_a_meeting_with_Member_States_on_28_February_2022)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 02/28/2022 04:32 pm
ESA says 2022 ExoMars launch unlikely

19:56 28 Feb. 2022

The European Space Agency has said that the launch of the Kazachok station and the Rosalind Franklin rover into space as part of the second stage of ExoMars in 2022 is very unlikely. This is due to the sanctions imposed against Russia due to hostilities in Ukraine, according to the ESA website.

The Russian-European project "ExoMars" provides for the exploration of Mars in two stages. The first stage started in 2016, when the Trace Gas Orbiter , which is still operating in near-Martian orbit, exploring the planet's atmosphere, and the Schiaparelli demonstration descent module , which crashed during landing, went into space. The second stage involved sending the Kazachok scientific station and the Rosalind Franklin  rover  to Mars , which were supposed to work on the Oxia plateau  in the northern hemisphere of Mars. The rover, equipped with a drill, is expected to conduct an extensive research program on the potential habitability of the Red Planet in the past.

The start date for the second stage was first set for 2018, but then the launch was postponed  to 2020, and later to 2022 due to the coronavirus pandemic. The unavailability of the parachute braking system for landing on Mars also played a role in the transfers . On February 28, 2022, the European Space Agency held a meeting on cooperation with Russia in connection with sanctions. It resulted in a statement that the launch of the rover as part of the second stage of ExoMars in 2022 is very unlikely. In the near future, the director general of the agency will analyze all options and prepare a formal decision on the further actions of the agency.

You can learn about how the Trace Gas Orbiter probe discovered the “hydrogen chloride season” on Mars in our material “It Appears, It Disappears” .

Anna Kachanova

https://nplus1.ru/news/2022/02/28/exomars-maybe-no-in-2022
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 02/28/2022 04:34 pm
Roskosmos wants to save the ExoMars-2022 joint project with Europe.

Rogozin: Roscosmos would like to keep the Russian-European mission to Mars ExoMars-2022.

23:29 02/26/2022 (updated: 11:19 02/27/2022)

MOSCOW, February 26 - RIA Novosti. Roskosmos would like to keep the Russian-European mission to Mars ExoMars-2022, which is scheduled to launch in September, Dmitry Rogozin, CEO of the state corporation , said on Saturday.

"We would like to keep the Russian-European mission to Mars, it's called ExoMars," he said on the air on the Soloviev Live YouTube channel .

On Friday, the director of the European Space Agency, Joseph Eschbecker, tweeted that the agency will continue to work with Roscosmos on civil space and the International Space Station, including on the ExoMars launch campaign.

The launch of the second part of the Russian-European ExoMars mission was originally planned for 2018. Then it was postponed to 2020, and then, due to the difficulties associated with the pandemic, it was postponed to 2022 (the launch window, when it is convenient to fly to Mars from Earth, opens every two years). The Russian landing platform "Kazachok" with the European rover Rosalind Franklin installed on it will go to the Red Planet.

The launch of the Russian platform with the European rover will be a continuation of the ExoMars-2016 mission, which consisted of the European orbital module TGO with two Russian scientific instruments and the European lander Schiaparelli. In October 2016, TGO went into orbit around Mars and is still working, while Schiaparelli crashed on landing.

https://ria.ru/20220226/exomars-2022-1775310990.html
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: JayWee on 02/28/2022 04:39 pm
Rogozin tweets:
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1498350172341948417

Quote from: Erik's berger translation
In order to spite their Russian grandmother, ESA decided to freeze off their own ears.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: redliox on 02/28/2022 06:47 pm
Where are the ExoMars parts currently?  Russia or Kazakhstan?  If the later I would think the possibility of this mission continuing could happen.


Although a vague possibility, could ESA still salvage its rover and couple it with a different lander, if an alternate lander could be cobbled together?  Emphasis on vague with a dash of hypothetical, bear in mind...
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 02/28/2022 07:30 pm
Where are the ExoMars parts currently?  Russia or Kazakhstan?  If the later I would think the possibility of this mission continuing could happen.


Although a vague possibility, could ESA still salvage its rover and couple it with a different lander, if an alternate lander could be cobbled together?  Emphasis on vague with a dash of hypothetical, bear in mind...
It's gonna take years to design and make a different lander. This is very troubling for exomars
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 02/28/2022 09:09 pm
Where are the ExoMars parts currently?  Russia or Kazakhstan?  If the later I would think the possibility of this mission continuing could happen.

Proton-M arrives in Baikonur in March.
Part of the European team and all of the flight hardware is in Baikonur.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 02/28/2022 09:49 pm
It's gonna take years to design and make a different lander. This is very troubling for exomars

That's assuming that it is even possible. It may be so unique that designing a lander would take longer than makes sense--pushing out the launch window too far. I'm not saying that's the case, but there's some real artistry to effective systems engineering. It's difficult to do right.

Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: ccdengr on 02/28/2022 10:20 pm
Unless the political situation is resolved quickly, Exomars is finished IMHO.

A more interesting question is what happens to the Mars Sample Return architecture.  The fetch rover was being provided by ESA and without flight heritage from Exomars I'm not sure how credible that is.  Of course, they will have the benefit of whatever testing was done, just not flight experience.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: russianhalo117 on 02/28/2022 11:02 pm
Where are the ExoMars parts currently?  Russia or Kazakhstan?  If the later I would think the possibility of this mission continuing could happen.

Although a vague possibility, could ESA still salvage its rover and couple it with a different lander, if an alternate lander could be cobbled together?  Emphasis on vague with a dash of hypothetical, bear in mind...

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1496527966456758273?s=20 (https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1496527966456758273?s=20)

Kazakhstan with early integration and testing preparatory work already underway. The full ESA and Russian teams were arrive on site effective March 1st at the earliest. Not all European hardware has been publicly confirmed to be now in Baikonur. The engineering model went to Russia. The flight model went to Baikonur. The launcher fit check of hardware was done at NPO Lavochkin in a hall at 141400, Khimki, Moscow region, Leningradskaya st., 24
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 02/28/2022 11:05 pm
It's gonna take years to design and make a different lander. This is very troubling for exomars

That's assuming that it is even possible. It may be so unique that designing a lander would take longer than makes sense--pushing out the launch window too far. I'm not saying that's the case, but there's some real artistry to effective systems engineering. It's difficult to do right.
Any lander for the rover is a sophisticated spacecraft in its own right. An implementation that doesn't use Russian parts or expertise is an entirely new, one of a kind design. Those take years. And landing on Mars is just plain hard, but harder than building "standard" spacecraft.

A new lander would be years away.  4 seems like to few but I'm not a spacecraft architect or engineer. 6? 8?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 02/28/2022 11:06 pm
Unless the political situation is resolved quickly, Exomars is finished IMHO.

A more interesting question is what happens to the Mars Sample Return architecture.  The fetch rover was being provided by ESA and without flight heritage from Exomars I'm not sure how credible that is.  Of course, they will have the benefit of whatever testing was done, just not flight experience.
I suspect that any sample return flight heritage would come from the European ExoMars designs.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/01/2022 08:58 am
Where are the ExoMars parts currently?  Russia or Kazakhstan?  If the later I would think the possibility of this mission continuing could happen.


Although a vague possibility, could ESA still salvage its rover and couple it with a different lander, if an alternate lander could be cobbled together?  Emphasis on vague with a dash of hypothetical, bear in mind...

All major components are in TAS premises in Turin, Italy and Cannes, France. They were getting readied for shipment to Baikonur as late as last week. People are figuring out what to do given the situation. Not sure if the Russian delegation from Roscosmos is still on site (they were supporting lander testing and troubleshooting) or they went the same way as those in Kourou.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: gemmy0I on 03/01/2022 10:22 pm
Where are the ExoMars parts currently?  Russia or Kazakhstan?  If the later I would think the possibility of this mission continuing could happen.


Although a vague possibility, could ESA still salvage its rover and couple it with a different lander, if an alternate lander could be cobbled together?  Emphasis on vague with a dash of hypothetical, bear in mind...

All major components are in TAS premises in Turin, Italy and Cannes, France. They were getting readied for shipment to Baikonur as late as last week. People are figuring out what to do given the situation. Not sure if the Russian delegation from Roscosmos is still on site (they were supporting lander testing and troubleshooting) or they went the same way as those in Kourou.
By "all major components", do you mean that major components of the complete rover+lander assembly are still on EU/ESA-friendly soil? Or only the rover with the lander being in Kazakhstan? (If components are at least in Kazakhstan as opposed to Russia, it might be more feasible for ESA to get them returned, but who knows.)

Wondering if it's even in the realm of possibility to switch the mission to an Ariane 5 or Falcon 9/Heavy. Ariane would be the ideal solution from a political perspective for ESA, and I'm guessing Ariane 5 has plenty of throw mass to do the mission (assuming it can be done with a single upper stage burn) since it has a substantially higher payload capacity to GTO compared to Proton. I see four A5 missions on the manifest for this year (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=6114.msg2334540#msg2334540), all for commercial comsats which could in theory be "bumped" for a high-priority mission like ExoMars, depending on how high a priority ESA wants to make this.

Failing that, Falcon 9/Heavy (guessing F9 could do it, at least in expendable mode, but certainly the Heavy can) would be an obvious option because SpaceX is in a good position to add missions to their manifest on short notice without bumping other customers (it could likely be arranged to only displace Starlink missions). Not as politically "nice" for ESA but if it means getting ExoMars launched this year instead of waiting two more years (and potentially risking cancellation due to the program dragging on), it would be a wonderful example of international collaboration in the face of a global crisis, which could offset any negative "look" from relying on SpaceX.

A bigger question, I suppose, would be: can/will the Russian-built lander be controlled from ESA mission control centers, or does it require support from Moscow during the cruise and landing phases? If the latter, then I imagine the engineering changes needed to address that would likely bump the launch to 2024.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: whitelancer64 on 03/01/2022 10:40 pm
Where are the ExoMars parts currently?  Russia or Kazakhstan?  If the later I would think the possibility of this mission continuing could happen.


Although a vague possibility, could ESA still salvage its rover and couple it with a different lander, if an alternate lander could be cobbled together?  Emphasis on vague with a dash of hypothetical, bear in mind...

All major components are in TAS premises in Turin, Italy and Cannes, France. They were getting readied for shipment to Baikonur as late as last week. People are figuring out what to do given the situation. Not sure if the Russian delegation from Roscosmos is still on site (they were supporting lander testing and troubleshooting) or they went the same way as those in Kourou.
By "all major components", do you mean that major components of the complete rover+lander assembly are still on EU/ESA-friendly soil? Or only the rover with the lander being in Kazakhstan? (If components are at least in Kazakhstan as opposed to Russia, it might be more feasible for ESA to get them returned, but who knows.)

Wondering if it's even in the realm of possibility to switch the mission to an Ariane 5 or Falcon 9/Heavy. Ariane would be the ideal solution from a political perspective for ESA, and I'm guessing Ariane 5 has plenty of throw mass to do the mission (assuming it can be done with a single upper stage burn) since it has a substantially higher payload capacity to GTO compared to Proton. I see four A5 missions on the manifest for this year (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=6114.msg2334540#msg2334540), all for commercial comsats which could in theory be "bumped" for a high-priority mission like ExoMars, depending on how high a priority ESA wants to make this.

Failing that, Falcon 9/Heavy (guessing F9 could do it, at least in expendable mode, but certainly the Heavy can) would be an obvious option because SpaceX is in a good position to add missions to their manifest on short notice without bumping other customers (it could likely be arranged to only displace Starlink missions). Not as politically "nice" for ESA but if it means getting ExoMars launched this year instead of waiting two more years (and potentially risking cancellation due to the program dragging on), it would be a wonderful example of international collaboration in the face of a global crisis, which could offset any negative "look" from relying on SpaceX.

A bigger question, I suppose, would be: can/will the Russian-built lander be controlled from ESA mission control centers, or does it require support from Moscow during the cruise and landing phases? If the latter, then I imagine the engineering changes needed to address that would likely bump the launch to 2024.

At minimum they'd need to:

1. Study the launch conditions within the payload fairing - not only to see if they payload will fit inside, but also vibration, heat loads, etc. - to ensure that they are compatible with the existing ExoMars hardware tolerances and other requirements. For example, the payload may require specific air conditioning pre-launch, which another launch provider may not have the equipment for.

2. Design, build, and test an adapter for holding the hardware onto the upper stage, including all the data and electrical connections the payload will need.

3. All of this will delay integration. And remember, they were just getting ready to ship everything for integration!

It is almost certainly not possible on such late notice. Launch window is Sept. 20 - Oct. 1

And you are right, this is just ignoring the possibility that they may not have the equipment to talk to any Russian hardware.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/02/2022 07:07 am
Where are the ExoMars parts currently?  Russia or Kazakhstan?  If the later I would think the possibility of this mission continuing could happen.


Although a vague possibility, could ESA still salvage its rover and couple it with a different lander, if an alternate lander could be cobbled together?  Emphasis on vague with a dash of hypothetical, bear in mind...

All major components are in TAS premises in Turin, Italy and Cannes, France. They were getting readied for shipment to Baikonur as late as last week. People are figuring out what to do given the situation. Not sure if the Russian delegation from Roscosmos is still on site (they were supporting lander testing and troubleshooting) or they went the same way as those in Kourou.
By "all major components", do you mean that major components of the complete rover+lander assembly are still on EU/ESA-friendly soil? Or only the rover with the lander being in Kazakhstan? (If components are at least in Kazakhstan as opposed to Russia, it might be more feasible for ESA to get them returned, but who knows.)

Wondering if it's even in the realm of possibility to switch the mission to an Ariane 5 or Falcon 9/Heavy. Ariane would be the ideal solution from a political perspective for ESA, and I'm guessing Ariane 5 has plenty of throw mass to do the mission (assuming it can be done with a single upper stage burn) since it has a substantially higher payload capacity to GTO compared to Proton. I see four A5 missions on the manifest for this year (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=6114.msg2334540#msg2334540), all for commercial comsats which could in theory be "bumped" for a high-priority mission like ExoMars, depending on how high a priority ESA wants to make this.

I have just seen the backshell and lander this morning in my office: I can attest they are in Europe. To the best of my knowledge Rosalind hasn't been shipped to the launch site either. No need to return anything. Most Russian hardware, sans (maybe) some minor components or perhaps fueling-related equipment -not sure where fueling was planned to be performed-, is also here.

Not sure, but I suspect the possibility of controlling the lander bypassing Russia won't have been built into the system except maybe as a safe-mode backup, and can be considered remote at best, especially with just a few months to go until it's needed.

EDIT: I can confirm that the Russian workers for ExoMars are still in Italy. What's more, they have been left stranded with no way to return home, no diplomatic channels, no professional communications with Roscosmos... and no money (credit cards blocked, Sberbank leaving Europe...)! That's a frankly appalling way to treat their staff and wash their hands, but no wonder given how they're "defending" Russians leaving in Ukraine (i.e. bombing them). Hopefully when they eventually do manage to go back home, they will have very strong opinions about the issue and their leadership.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: JayWee on 03/02/2022 09:42 am
...
Not sure, but I suspect the possibility of controlling the lander bypassing Russia won't have been built into the system except maybe as a safe-mode backup, and can be considered remote at best, especially with just a few months to go until it's needed.

I guess the russians would make such a ruckus about 'stealing' equipment ...
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/03/2022 10:18 am
S/C encapsulation within the heatshield is in active work. Should be done next week.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: woods170 on 03/03/2022 12:17 pm
S/C encapsulation within the heatshield is in active work. Should be done next week.

Won't do much good now that it is no longer allowed to be transported to the launch site.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/03/2022 12:59 pm
S/C encapsulation within the heatshield is in active work. Should be done next week.

Won't do much good now that it is no longer allowed to be transported to the launch site.

Not right now (well, at least it will be more protected from dust :) ) but things have changed a lot in a week. They can still change again: better be ready and not throw schedule margins in the air.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/11/2022 05:21 pm
Notable is that Roscosmos personnel, while left in a dire situation (diplomatic and professional comms mostly cut off, credit cards not working...) which hopefully will steer their opinion on the current Russian leadership, have still NOT left Italy, and are carrying on work on ExoMars. Apart from the Proton launcher and the Kazachok lander, there are also RHUs on Rosalind Franklin that are Russian contributions to the mission.

While unlikely, work is still progressing nominally for a launch this year, with -I guess- the hope that things will somehow return to sanity. There's about a month less in the schedule margin until the decision to fly or not to Baikonur will be more or less irrevocable. Otherwise, it's 2024, either with Proton if sanity takes a bit longer to return but still does, or another launcher if it does not - it can also be later if the lander needs to be re-sourced to a Western alternative, although at the moment that option is also being looked at.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: matthewkantar on 03/11/2022 06:43 pm
Notable is that Roscosmos personnel, while left in a dire situation (diplomatic and professional comms mostly cut off, credit cards not working...) which hopefully will steer their opinion on the current Russian leadership, have still NOT left Italy, and are carrying on work on ExoMars. Apart from the Proton launcher and the Kazachok lander, there are also RHUs on Rosalind Franklin that are Russian contributions to the mission.

While unlikely, work is still progressing nominally for a launch this year, with -I guess- the hope that things will somehow return to sanity. There's about a month less in the schedule margin until the decision to fly or not to Baikonur will be more or less irrevocable. Otherwise, it's 2024, either with Proton if sanity takes a bit longer to return but still does, or another launcher if it does not - it can also be later if the lander needs to be re-sourced to a Western alternative, although at the moment that option is also being looked at.

[deleted]

What a raw deal for the Europeans, they have been trying to get a rover on the ground on Mars for decades. They got dumped by the Americans, then miss a launch window for parachute troubles, now their partner is a pariah. Definitely not Europe's fault.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 03/11/2022 08:48 pm
Moderator:
Off-topic posts have been and will be edited or deleted.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Bananas_on_Mars on 03/12/2022 01:03 pm
Notable is that Roscosmos personnel, while left in a dire situation (diplomatic and professional comms mostly cut off, credit cards not working...) which hopefully will steer their opinion on the current Russian leadership, have still NOT left Italy, and are carrying on work on ExoMars. Apart from the Proton launcher and the Kazachok lander, there are also RHUs on Rosalind Franklin that are Russian contributions to the mission.
I guess they might be open to job offers.

On another note, is the personnel that is sent on such assignements more on the technician or engineer level? I‘m just curious.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Jim on 03/12/2022 01:17 pm
It would be both
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: libra on 03/12/2022 06:16 pm
Quote
What a raw deal for the Europeans, they have been trying to get a rover on the ground on Mars for decades. They got dumped by the Americans, then miss a launch window for parachute troubles, now their partner is a pariah. Definitely not Europe's fault.

Well summarized. Now if the delays allows to iron out hidden bugs and avoid a launch by tricky troubled Proton... is that necessarily a bad thing ?
But the mission will end cost a whole lot more for sure.
Wonder if an Ariane 64 could take over from Proton.
 
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: butters on 03/12/2022 06:37 pm
NASA has another MSL-class lander funded, but it's for 2029, and it's booked for the MAV and the Airbus fetch rover. I assume the nearly decade-long gap between Perseverance and the sample return lander is due to budget constraints. What would be an achievable lead time on a Mars lander of conventional NASA design, if Congress were sufficiently moved by ESA's plight?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Jeff Lerner on 03/12/2022 07:24 pm
Quote
What a raw deal for the Europeans, they have been trying to get a rover on the ground on Mars for decades. They got dumped by the Americans, then miss a launch window for parachute troubles, now their partner is a pariah. Definitely not Europe's fault.

Well summarized. Now if the delays allows to iron out hidden bugs and avoid a launch by tricky troubled Proton... is that necessarily a bad thing ?
But the mission will end cost a whole lot more for sure.
Wonder if an Ariane 64 could take over from Proton.
 

Been waiting for someone to bring up Proton’s record..

In fact I’ll raise the comment one more notch and say that based on Russia’s recent track record in successfully launching inter planetary probes ( which has been dismal for recent years) , I’d suggest  that Europe is lucky to get out of this partnership.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 03/12/2022 07:29 pm
In fact I’ll raise the comment one more notch and say that based on Russia’s recent track record in successfully launching inter planetary probes ( which has been dismal for recent years) , I’d suggest  that Europe is lucky to get out of this partnership.

"recent" means decades.

But I don't think Europe is "lucky" here.

I do think that ESA will have to turn to NASA about funding a landing vehicle. But that's going to be difficult. NASA will not want to/be able to fund the lander on its own, and ESA will not want to/be able to pay NASA to develop it. And that presumes that it is even possible for JPL to take on another project. JPL has its hands full with building the Mars sample return equipment and Europa Clipper. There's an issue of available capacity. It's just going to be tough for ESA.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: baldusi on 03/12/2022 11:37 pm
In fact I’ll raise the comment one more notch and say that based on Russia’s recent track record in successfully launching inter planetary probes ( which has been dismal for recent years) , I’d suggest  that Europe is lucky to get out of this partnership.

"recent" means decades.

But I don't think Europe is "lucky" here.

I do think that ESA will have to turn to NASA about funding a landing vehicle. But that's going to be difficult. NASA will not want to/be able to fund the lander on its own, and ESA will not want to/be able to pay NASA to develop it. And that presumes that it is even possible for JPL to take on another project. JPL has its hands full with building the Mars sample return equipment and Europa Clipper. There's an issue of available capacity. It's just going to be tough for ESA.
At this time I would say it will depend on what the Minister Commission funds. The rover is about double what MER were, but probably could use the same technology. The closest non-Russian EDL is Zhurong's, but I don't know if the Chinese are an option. Which leaves to either do a scaled up version of Schiaparelli, or ask NASA to do a scale up of MER. Realistically speaking, I only see NASA paying up if there's some political angle.
Europe has been very forthcoming in cooperating with Russia and now has a lot of areas where they will have to invest heavily to cover for their failed collaborations. Vega need immediate RD-843, Ariane 6 needs to really ramp up to replace Soyuz, the European satellite suppliers are probably scrambling to replace Russian tanks and Hall thrusters, all collaborations (like Rosita) are closed and the science impact has to be evaluated, etc. And I'm not getting into the actual economic impact on energy prices and supply.
What I mean is that I just don't see any viable solution for at least two launch windows, which would put anything actually viable in the 2026, at the very least. And that's assuming an actual decision and budget allocation is made this year. I'm afraid ExoMars will have a launch drama similar to ERA (ISS RS arm).
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: LouScheffer on 03/13/2022 02:20 am
What a raw deal for the Europeans, they have been trying to get a rover on the ground on Mars for decades. They got dumped by the Americans, then miss a launch window for parachute troubles, now their partner is a pariah. Definitely not Europe's fault.
If I recall correctly, the parachute problem was self-inflicted.  They tried a new design for the big parachute (the smaller ones were modelled after Viking and Huygens).  They had a dubious subcontractor (Arca) doing testing, and then when later tests ran into trouble there was not enough time to fix and re-verify.  They got JPL involved fairly late, even though they have some of the best experts and facilities (I suspect since it was a European project).  So I think this issue was largely Europe's fault.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: matthewkantar on 03/13/2022 03:26 am
For some reason I thought the parachute troubles were Russian. Thanks for the correction.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/13/2022 03:36 pm
What a raw deal for the Europeans, they have been trying to get a rover on the ground on Mars for decades. They got dumped by the Americans, then miss a launch window for parachute troubles, now their partner is a pariah. Definitely not Europe's fault.
If I recall correctly, the parachute problem was self-inflicted.  They tried a new design for the big parachute (the smaller ones were modelled after Viking and Huygens).  They had a dubious subcontractor (Arca) doing testing, and then when later tests ran into trouble there was not enough time to fix and re-verify.  They got JPL involved fairly late, even though they have some of the best experts and facilities (I suspect since it was a European project).  So I think this issue was largely Europe's fault.

Calling it self inflicted or intentional is a pretty bad way to describe it. You are leaving out info to make a judgement.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: redliox on 03/13/2022 03:43 pm
What were the list of mission components ESA built and therefore owns?  If the mission has salvage potential (largely meaning ensuring the rover ends up doing it's mission somehow), that should be the starting point for further arguments about it.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 03/13/2022 04:52 pm
What were the list of mission components ESA built and therefore owns?  If the mission has salvage potential (largely meaning ensuring the rover ends up doing it's mission somehow), that should be the starting point for further arguments about it.

The rover includes at a minimum these Russian components as instruments

ISEM - Infrared Spectrometer for ExoMars
Adron - search for subsurface water and hydrated minerals

There may well be Russian components or subsystems also in the rover. Even if it's just the instruments, my understanding is that you can just yank subsystems out and fly; you have to retest the functioning of the entire rover.

Those, though, are likely the simply things. The rover was custom designed for the Russian lander and platform. Accommodations and tradeoffs likely are throughout its design. Any replacement lander would have to match those design decisions.

A new lander/platform would be a major design spacecraft design effort in its own right, made harder by the fact that a lander is more complex (as I understand it) than a flyby or orbital spacecraft. It has to do more things in a rapidly changing descent profile.

I am not optimistic.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: baldusi on 03/14/2022 12:02 am
On the one hand they are 67% heavier than MER, and 30% than Zhurong. On the other hand they are going to a deeper place, which helps with the aerobreaking. So I would say that JPL or CNSA could do it with "simple" systems (i.e. not SkyCrane), but I just don't see them doing it. There's little to no science justification. The more I think about it the more I see either an all European landing in 2028, or straight cancellation.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Bob Shaw on 03/14/2022 12:44 am
Russia and NASA are not the only lander (etc) vendors in town.

China has already delivered a rover to Mars and would love to be the good guys. There are other states with an interest in (Lunar) landers - Israel and India spring to mind. And there are the companies which NASA is paying to deliver payloads to the surface of our Moon too. In terms of atmosphere entry ESA and India have flown demonstrator missions which show that they have their own TPS technology and ESA had a hand in the ExoMars parachutes. Even the UK has built a Mars EDL system! In terms of cruise stages, ESA, Japan, India and China have built credible interplanetary craft. And then there's SpaceX...

Things could get interesting!
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Jim on 03/14/2022 01:21 am

And then there's SpaceX...


Which doesn’t mean anything. 
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: baldusi on 03/14/2022 02:30 am
Russia and NASA are not the only lander (etc) vendors in town.

China has already delivered a rover to Mars and would love to be the good guys. There are other states with an interest in (Lunar) landers - Israel and India spring to mind. And there are the companies which NASA is paying to deliver payloads to the surface of our Moon too. In terms of atmosphere entry ESA and India have flown demonstrator missions which show that they have their own TPS technology and ESA had a hand in the ExoMars parachutes. Even the UK has built a Mars EDL system! In terms of cruise stages, ESA, Japan, India and China have built credible interplanetary craft. And then there's SpaceX...

Things could get interesting!
Are you aware that the Moon has no atmosphere, 1/6th of gravity, you get there in under a couple of weeks and has a comm latency of under 3 seconds, while Mars does have an atmosphere, .375 of gravity, it takes about nine months to get there and you can have up to 45 minutes of latency?
So no, Japan, India and Israel have no relevant experience, England's is basically lost since everybody has retired and also is irrelevant because it was a 33 kilos crashlander. You need something quite different for a rover, since you need to take care of the rover, and then you need to be able to deploy it.
As I said, only JPL and CNSA have developed the relevant technologies, but for a bit smaller scales. Developing such a technology is also super sensitive because you quite close to nuclear warhead vehicles. Not exactly, because warheads want to keep as much velocity as possible while EDL try to shred as much as possible. But quite similar in every other aspect.
So, realistically speaking, if Russians are not an option, it's paying a large amount to JPL or CNSA or putting even more money and letting ESA do it. I simply don't see any of those options taking less than five/six years.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: libra on 03/14/2022 04:21 am
Quote
What a raw deal for the Europeans, they have been trying to get a rover on the ground on Mars for decades. They got dumped by the Americans, then miss a launch window for parachute troubles, now their partner is a pariah. Definitely not Europe's fault.

Well summarized. Now if the delays allows to iron out hidden bugs and avoid a launch by tricky troubled Proton... is that necessarily a bad thing ?
But the mission will end cost a whole lot more for sure.
Wonder if an Ariane 64 could take over from Proton.
 

Been waiting for someone to bring up Proton’s record..

In fact I’ll raise the comment one more notch and say that based on Russia’s recent track record in successfully launching inter planetary probes ( which has been dismal for recent years) , I’d suggest  that Europe is lucky to get out of this partnership.

Amen to that. There had been doubts related to Proton reliability for a veeeeery long time - 2010 failures, and then that huge KABOOOM on July 2 2013.
Plus I've just realized that much like Ariane 5 (and EELVs, btw) Proton is on its way out.

The way ESA works, if the Russians become the ennemy and if NASA JPL is too busy, they will look for another partner - of course there are few big players in the Mars race those days. My bets are on India, then China. India and CNES have worked together since the 1960's. And surely they would love to have their Mars lander.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Zed_Noir on 03/14/2022 04:51 am
On the one hand they are 67% heavier than MER, and 30% than Zhurong. On the other hand they are going to a deeper place, which helps with the aerobreaking. So I would say that JPL or CNSA could do it with "simple" systems (i.e. not SkyCrane), but I just don't see them doing it. There's little to no science justification. The more I think about it the more I see either an all European landing in 2028, or straight cancellation.

 :) Or ESA can roll the dice. Put the rover on one of the Mars cargo Starships launching during 2026. Presuming the Starship is operational by 2024.

More likely is a cancellation with re-purposing some of the rover hardware to future Mars missions. :(
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Don2 on 03/14/2022 07:07 am
Canceling Exomars would make Europe look weak and dependent on Russia...not a good look for them right now. I doubt the politicians would be interested in that.

A joint US-European initiative to rescue the project could be a symbol of transatlantic cooperation  in the face of events in Eastern Europe. A credible rescue plan would show that Russia can be replaced and frozen out of many things if they don't change course. That might have enough political appeal to attract some new money from outside the current space budget. There might be a US-Europe cooperation deal on weapons and natural gas, and maybe an Exomars rescue can be fitted into that.

The questions are how much, how long, and does it make industrial and scientific sense? I'm sure NASA and ESA will work together to create a proposal, and then we will see if the politicians want to buy it.

It might not be possible for engineering reasons. JPL might be too busy, or maybe Exomars can't be separated from the existing Russian hardware. I wonder if Europe could build a copy of the skycrane, if NASA gave them the design and supplied some components and software to speed things up. I'm sure the Europeans could do the structure for themselves. They have their own test facilities. A lot of engineering analysis would have to be redone because Exomars is lighter,  is going to a different landing site and will probably use a different launch vehicle. JPL could supply the engineers who did the analysis for Perseverance to help with that.

The sample return program might offer another possibility. If the mass of the sample return rocket grows, they might need a separate lander for the fetch rover. Perhaps they could design a common lander which would work for both Exomars and the fetch rover and then build two copies.

Another possibility might be to merge the Exomars rover project and the fetch rover project. Could the current Exomars rover be used as a fetch rover, or could some of the instruments be flown on the fetch rover?
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/14/2022 09:26 am
Rosalind Franklin CAN be separated from Kazachok, although some rework will be needed (doable considering the time it'd take to build a new lander anyway). Probably quite challenging to go with Skycranes though. Although (very) challenging engineering- and project-wise, metamorphosizing the mission away from Russian contributions would provide an interesting new project for European industry, so it's not necessarily seen as a reason for cancellation.

Likewise, there is work ongoing to check what impacts non-Russian RHUs, or none at all, would have on the rover.

In any case, there is no consideration right now going into cancelling the whole mission altogether.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: edzieba on 03/14/2022 11:42 am

And then there's SpaceX...


Which doesn’t mean anything.
Loathe as I am to apply "throw SpaceX at the problem" to every task...
Red Dragon was cancelled for budgetary reasons, not technical ones: SpaceX had no internal need for it (Starship design progressed past giant rear-entering capsule with supersonic retropropulsion to side-entering cylinder with aerodynamic control), lost external funding for the propulsive landing side (Dragon 2 switching to parachutes because SpaceX did not want to shoulder enough of the costs to pay for development once they had no internal need), and were nowhere close to enough buy-in for it as a standalone mission to pay for the entire development cycle from external funds.
But they do still have a capsule in active production with a heatshield that could survive Mars entry, that does have functioning storable-fuel rim motors for supersonic retropropulsion and landing, that has had some degree of testing for powered soft-landing, and that could have the software developed for Mars EDL. It would still need plenty of additional hardware for long-term power and interplanetary communications, but those are areas the ESA have extensive experience in. You could even forget the legs and heatshield penetrations if you're willing to just crush the heatshield and weeble-wobble on the surface until you can deploy some outriggers (which lets you use the existing PICA-X tooling).

Paying to restart and complete development on Red Dragon may be cheaper than some of the other options the ESA are facing for Mars EDL, and may be faster too. Also much higher risk compared to JPL or CNSA with a proven history of successful Mars landings, and will have the ESA likely bear the full cost rather than being subsidised by the provider.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: redliox on 03/14/2022 12:17 pm
Too soon to invoke a SpaceX-cure-all, and frankly distracting for this thread.

In the end, the ball bounces in ESA's court but I think the rover is salvageable.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/14/2022 02:39 pm
Canceling Exomars would make Europe look weak and dependent on Russia...not a good look for them right now. I doubt the politicians would be interested in that.


What people on reddit and web boards think won' really affect the mission. It WAS reliant on Russia because they were a FULL partner on the mission. To pretend anything else is silly.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: baldusi on 03/14/2022 03:53 pm
On the one hand they are 67% heavier than MER, and 30% than Zhurong. On the other hand they are going to a deeper place, which helps with the aerobreaking. So I would say that JPL or CNSA could do it with "simple" systems (i.e. not SkyCrane), but I just don't see them doing it. There's little to no science justification. The more I think about it the more I see either an all European landing in 2028, or straight cancellation.

 :) Or ESA can roll the dice. Put the rover on one of the Mars cargo Starships launching during 2026. Presuming the Starship is operational by 2024.

More likely is a cancellation with re-purposing some of the rover hardware to future Mars missions. :(
Please, stop it with Starship. First, we won't see a Starship launching to Mars before 2028, at the earliest. Second, the rover was designed in such a way that it would have a lot of time on the leveled and opened platform to do deployment and commissioning of certain parts. then go down the ramp at a very shallow angle to start roving. Deploying from Starship would be a nightmare for this design. It's not an option.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: baldusi on 03/14/2022 03:58 pm
Rosalind Franklin CAN be separated from Kazachok, although some rework will be needed (doable considering the time it'd take to build a new lander anyway). Probably quite challenging to go with Skycranes though. Although (very) challenging engineering- and project-wise, metamorphosizing the mission away from Russian contributions would provide an interesting new project for European industry, so it's not necessarily seen as a reason for cancellation.

Likewise, there is work ongoing to check what impacts non-Russian RHUs, or none at all, would have on the rover.

In any case, there is no consideration right now going into cancelling the whole mission altogether.

A SkyCrane is not only not necessary, but might not even be feasable. Curiosity and Endurance have been designed to both dampen the initial contact and to protect every instrument and device from both the overpressure and possible debris from the rocket exhaust. Franklin was supposed to have its protective cocoon open only after everything was settled.
But that's actually no problem because the MER technology can be scaled to the 320kg of the ESA rover. Curiosity is about 1 tonne and that's why it needed SkyCrane. So they could do it without much risk. It's just a question of time and money.
Personally, I think they will just don't mention it, say that they are negotiating, and then let it die and cancel in a few years when nobody is giving much attention to the fact.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/14/2022 05:35 pm
Rosalind Franklin CAN be separated from Kazachok, although some rework will be needed (doable considering the time it'd take to build a new lander anyway). Probably quite challenging to go with Skycranes though. Although (very) challenging engineering- and project-wise, metamorphosizing the mission away from Russian contributions would provide an interesting new project for European industry, so it's not necessarily seen as a reason for cancellation.

Likewise, there is work ongoing to check what impacts non-Russian RHUs, or none at all, would have on the rover.

In any case, there is no consideration right now going into cancelling the whole mission altogether.
.
Personally, I think they will just don't mention it, say that they are negotiating, and then let it die and cancel in a few years when nobody is giving much attention to the fact.

I can assure you that's very much not on the table at this moment, except perhaps at the highest administrative echelons, and unless all contingency studies now underway come up with price tags that far exceed invested amounts.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/14/2022 07:19 pm
But that's actually no problem because the MER technology can be scaled to the 320kg of the ESA rover. Curiosity is about 1 tonne and that's why it needed SkyCrane. So they could do it without much risk. It's just a question of time and money.
Personally, I think they will just don't mention it, say that they are negotiating, and then let it die and cancel in a few years when nobody is giving much attention to the fact.

A MER landing would also require extensive redesigns. Pretty sure the rover wasn't designed to bounce around in any orientation.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Phil Stooke on 03/14/2022 08:13 pm
... or fold up to the extent necessary.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: baldusi on 03/15/2022 03:52 am
But that's actually no problem because the MER technology can be scaled to the 320kg of the ESA rover. Curiosity is about 1 tonne and that's why it needed SkyCrane. So they could do it without much risk. It's just a question of time and money.
Personally, I think they will just don't mention it, say that they are negotiating, and then let it die and cancel in a few years when nobody is giving much attention to the fact.

A MER landing would also require extensive redesigns. Pretty sure the rover wasn't designed to bounce around in any orientation.

Well, I finally got to read an article describing the Kazachok, and it was pretty SkyCrane-like: two parachutes, a shell separation and retrorockets landing. Main difference is that it landed with a platform that I assume would cushion most of the fall. But the Italians were saying they had made a lot of contributions from Schiaparelli. So it might happen that ESA will prepare a "palatable" budget to do their own EDL system. And palatable means underestimated so they can justify it and then use the sunk-cost fallacy. Thanks for all the input.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: tul on 03/15/2022 01:26 pm

So no, Japan, India and Israel have no relevant experience, England's is basically lost since everybody has retired and also is irrelevant because it was a 33 kilos crashlander. You need something quite different for a rover, since you need to take care of the rover, and then you need to be able to deploy it.


A small correction.  Beagle 2 was not a crashlander. It had a successfull landing. The problem was the incomplete deployment of the probe's solar panels. 
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/15/2022 01:57 pm
Lander and backshell are integrated and flipped downward (backshell's narrow end up) in preparation for rover integration soon. Parachutes should be undergoing final confidence testing too, as well as packing for flight.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/15/2022 02:08 pm

So no, Japan, India and Israel have no relevant experience, England's is basically lost since everybody has retired and also is irrelevant because it was a 33 kilos crashlander. You need something quite different for a rover, since you need to take care of the rover, and then you need to be able to deploy it.


A small correction.  Beagle 2 was not a crashlander. It had a successfull landing. The problem was the incomplete deployment of the probe's solar panels.

This could have resulted from poor landing or other things. We can't say why it failed cause we do not know. We only know that whatever happened resulted in the solar panels not deploying
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Svetoslav on 03/15/2022 02:45 pm
This is what Roscosmos just published on its Telegram channel:

"Pending the final decision of the European Space Agency regarding the fate of the ExoMars 2022 joint mission, Roscosmos confirms that launch vehicles for launch in September this year of the Martian mission (proton-M launch vehicle) were loaded by the Khrunichev Center into railway cars and are ready to be sent to the Baikonur Cosmodrome. "
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: baldusi on 03/15/2022 04:01 pm

So no, Japan, India and Israel have no relevant experience, England's is basically lost since everybody has retired and also is irrelevant because it was a 33 kilos crashlander. You need something quite different for a rover, since you need to take care of the rover, and then you need to be able to deploy it.


A small correction.  Beagle 2 was not a crashlander. It had a successfull landing. The problem was the incomplete deployment of the probe's solar panels.
Crashlander in the sense that the last stage it sort of crashes with some sort of cushion or shock absorber. That's different from a parachute or retrorockets with close to zero final velocity.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/16/2022 07:51 am
Formal final delivery is on for tomorrow.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: hektor on 03/17/2022 12:15 pm
N° 9–2022: ExoMars suspended (https://www.esa.int/Newsroom/Press_Releases/ExoMars_suspended)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/17/2022 12:41 pm
Note "suspended".

It will all come down to what Russia does in the next few weeks (months for Soyuz).
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: hektor on 03/17/2022 12:48 pm
Given the situation they can book a slot as cargo on a Starship to Mars before they can fly with the Russians.
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 03/17/2022 01:12 pm
ESA refused to cooperate with Roskosmos on the ExoMars mission.

ESA called impossible further cooperation with Roskosmos on the ExoMars mission.

03/17/2022 04:48 PM (updated: 03/17/2022 05:02 PM)

PARIS, March 17 - RIA Novosti. The ruling council of the European Space Agency (ESA) found it impossible to further cooperate with Roskosmos on the ExoMars mission due to the events in Ukraine, follows from the relevant communiqué.

"The ESA ruling council, meeting in Paris on March 16-17, assessed the situation with ExoMars that arose due to hostilities in Ukraine , and unanimously recognized the impossibility of ongoing cooperation with Roscosmos on the mission of the ExoMars rover to be launched in 2022," - the ESA communiqué says. The Director General of ESA has been instructed to take appropriate measures to suspend cooperation activities.

Earlier , the European Space Agency said it would fully comply with the sanctions measures against Russia . In particular, it was noted that the launch of the Russian-European ExoMars mission in 2022 is unlikely.

The launch of the Russian-European ExoMars mission was originally planned for 2018. Then it was postponed to 2020, and then, due to the difficulties associated with the COVID-19 pandemic, it was postponed to 2022 (the launch window, when it is convenient to fly to Mars from Earth , opens every two years). It was assumed that the Russian landing platform "Kazachok" with the European rover Rosalind Franklin installed on it would go to the Red Planet.

https://ria.ru/20220317/kosmos-1778697487.html
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 03/17/2022 01:13 pm
Statement from ESA Council, 17 March 2022, on the situation arising from the war in Ukraine regarding #ExoMars and other ESA programmes..

https://twitter.com/esa/status/1504445858439471107
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 03/17/2022 01:15 pm
N° 9–2022: ExoMars suspended

17 March 2022

As an intergovernmental organisation mandated to develop and implement space programmes in full respect with European values, we deeply deplore the human casualties and tragic consequences of the aggression towards Ukraine. While recognising the impact on scientific exploration of space, ESA is fully aligned with the sanctions imposed on Russia by its Member States.

ExoMars

ESA’s ruling Council, meeting in Paris on 16-17 March, assessed the situation arising from the war in Ukraine regarding ExoMars, and unanimously:

acknowledged the present impossibility of carrying out the ongoing cooperation with Roscosmos on the ExoMars rover mission with a launch in 2022, and mandated the ESA Director General to take appropriate steps to suspend the cooperation activities accordingly; authorised the ESA Director General to carry out a fast-track industrial study to better define the available options for a way forward to implement the ExoMars rover mission.

Space Transportation

Following the decision by Roscosmos to withdraw their personnel from Europe’s Spaceport in French Guiana, all missions scheduled for launch by Soyuz have been put on hold. These concern essentially four institutional missions for which ESA is the launch service procurement entity (Galileo M10, Galileo M11, Euclid and EarthCare) and one additional institutional launch.

Consequently, the ESA Director General has initiated an assessment on potential alternative launch services for these missions, which will include  a review of the Ariane 6 first exploitation flights.  A robust launch manifest for ESA missions’ launch needs, including for spacecraft originally planned for launch by Soyuz from Kourou, will be submitted to Member States.   

The International Space Station

The International Space Station Programme continues to operate nominally. The main goal is to continue safe operations of the ISS, including maintaining the safety of the crew.

Way forward

Based on a first analysis of technical and programmatic impacts on all other activities affected by the war in Ukraine, the Director General intends to convene an extraordinary session of Council in the coming weeks to submit specific proposals for decision by Member States.

For further information, please contact ESA Newsroom and Media Relations Office – [email protected].

About the European Space Agency

The European Space Agency (ESA) provides Europe’s gateway to space.

ESA is an intergovernmental organisation, created in 1975, with the mission to shape the development of Europe’s space capability and ensure that investment in space delivers benefits to the citizens of Europe and the world.

ESA has 22 Member States: Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom. Slovenia, Latvia and Lithuania are Associate Members.

ESA has established formal cooperation with six Member States of the EU. Canada takes part in some ESA programmes under a Cooperation Agreement.

By coordinating the financial and intellectual resources of its members, ESA can undertake programmes and activities far beyond the scope of any single European country. It is working in particular with the EU on implementing the Galileo and Copernicus programmes as well as with Eumetsat for the development of meteorological missions.

https://www.esa.int/Newsroom/Press_Releases/ExoMars_suspended
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: woods170 on 03/17/2022 01:43 pm
Note "suspended".

It will all come down to what Russia does in the next few weeks (months for Soyuz).

Sure, keep on dreaming...

The official statement is the mild version of what was actually decided at the Ruling Council. ExoMars is no longer flying with the Russians. Full stop.

The trigger for this radical decision was what happened to the OneWeb launch. The members fully realized that Russia could do something similar to ExoMars: set unrealistic terms and use the hardware as hostage.

A number of studies are running now to determine how to proceed. But all of them are running with one directive: "The Russians are out and you better come up with an all-ESA solution".
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 03/17/2022 01:59 pm
"Roskosmos" will cope with the organization of the mission to Mars, said Rogozin.

Head of Roscosmos Rogozin: without Exomars we will lose several years, but we will carry out the mission ourselves.

03/17/2022 05:36 PM (updated: 03/17/2022 05:52 PM)

MOSCOW, March 17 - RIA Novosti. Roskosmos, after the refusal of the European Space Agency to participate in the ExoMars project, will conduct its own mission to Mars, although preparations for it will take several years, Roscosmos CEO Dmitry Rogozin said on Thursday.

“Yes, we will lose a few years, but we will repeat our landing module, provide it with the Angara launch vehicle, and from the new launch complex of the Vostochny cosmodrome we will conduct this research expedition on our own. Without any “European friends” with their tails tucked in from the American shout ", Rogozin wrote in his Telegram channel. Earlier, the ruling council of the European Space Agency found it impossible to further cooperate with Roscosmos on the ExoMars mission.

He attached to his post a copy of a letter from the head of the ESA, Joseph Aschbacher, which says that the Europeans are withdrawing from the project.

“Actually, this is a very bitter event for all space enthusiasts. This means that in September 2022 the joint Russian-European mission to Mars has been cancelled. Rogozin.

Earlier, the general director of the Khrunichev Center , Alexei Varochko , reported that the Proton-M rocket for the launch of the Russian-European mission ExoMars-2022 was manufactured and went through a full cycle of preparation. According to the director general of the enterprise, a train with another such rocket for further launches under the program from Baikonur in 2022 was supposed to go to the cosmodrome in early March.

The European Space Agency later said it would fully comply with the sanctions measures against Russia . In particular, it was noted that the launch of the Russian-European ExoMars mission in 2022 is unlikely. Rogozin, commenting on this decision, said that the ESA "to spite the Russian grandmother decided to freeze her ears."

The launch of the second part of the Russian-European ExoMars mission was originally planned for 2018. Then it was postponed to 2020, and then, due to the difficulties associated with the COVID-19 pandemic, it was postponed to 2022 (the launch window, when it is convenient to fly to Mars from Earth , opens every two years). The Russian landing platform "Kazachok" with the European rover Rosalind Franklin installed on it was supposed to go to the Red Planet.

The launch of the Russian platform with the European rover was supposed to be a continuation of the ExoMars-2016 mission, which consisted of the European orbital module TGO with two Russian scientific instruments and the European landing module Schiaparelli. In October 2016, TGO went into orbit around Mars and is still operating, while Schiaparelli crashed on landing.

https://ria.ru/20220317/mars-1778708742.html
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 03/17/2022 02:01 pm
Over the past two days, our Member States discussed the impact of the war in Ukraine on ESA’s space programmes. Together, we took a tough – but necessary – decision to suspend the launch of ExoMars foreseen for September with Roscosmos, and to study options for a way forward.

https://twitter.com/AschbacherJosef/status/1504447209407926277
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/17/2022 02:03 pm
Note "suspended".

It will all come down to what Russia does in the next few weeks (months for Soyuz).

Sure, keep on dreaming...

The official statement is the mild version of what was actually decided at the Ruling Council. ExoMars is no longer flying with the Russians. Full stop.

The trigger for this radical decision was what happened to the OneWeb launch. The members fully realized that Russia could do something similar to ExoMars: set unrealistic terms and use the hardware as hostage.

A number of studies are running now to determine how to proceed. But all of them are running with one directive: "The Russians are out and you better come up with an all-ESA solution".

I am reflecting the actual words being passed on to industry, not my interpretation. You appear to be putting (your) full stops where politicians themselves haven't, and certainly not the engineers. Evidently everyone understands it's practically impossible ExoMars will launch this year, or in a Proton ever, and even with Kazachok at all - and it would be flat-out negligent not to be planning an all-European, or at least all-Western, way out. In fact, you probably are aware that's been studied even before this Russian attack for some aspects of the mission.

The situation today would be completely unrecognizable for someone whose last update was less than a month ago, and it is within the realm of possibility it might change again in the same timeframe. Schedule margin still allows for it, and politics can change as fast as they already have.

EDIT: Also, take a look at Montalbano's statement today regarding Anna Kikina flying on Dragon. That's an even more sensitive issue, on an even more sensitive territory with much tighter-controlled ITAR, and it's tentatively going forward. Despite ESA deciding against it now, most likely because of bureaucratic timing -see aforementioned formal final delivery milestone- rather than any particular event, the whole justification revolves around the sanctions. Were an agreement to be signed between Ukraine and Russia within the next few weeks and sanctions eased as a response, the suspension could (unlikely, but concievably) be lifted too.

EDIT2: Speaking of the devil, just out from the press conference ("another ESA Council meeting is planned for mid-April to go into next level of decisions about cooperation with Russia [...]if able to restart cooperation with Roscosmos, a 2024 launch is feasible"):
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1504476141591011328 (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1504476141591011328)
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Conexion Espacial on 03/17/2022 02:39 pm
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1504475648936407047
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Conexion Espacial on 03/17/2022 03:19 pm
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1504475648936407047 (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1504475648936407047)
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1504478601239928835
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Conexion Espacial on 03/17/2022 03:19 pm
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1504475648936407047 (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1504475648936407047)
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1504478601239928835 (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1504478601239928835)
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1504481135253807104
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/17/2022 03:39 pm
Letter to Rogozin from Ashbacher:
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/17/2022 04:08 pm
sadness

If they ogtta make a new lander, its gonna be several years
Title: Re: ESA/Roscomos - ExoMars 2022 (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: libra on 03/17/2022 06:24 pm
Over the past two days, our Member States discussed the impact of the war in Ukraine on ESA’s space programmes. Together, we took a tough – but necessary – decision to suspend the launch of ExoMars foreseen for September with Roscosmos, and to study options for a way forward.

https://twitter.com/AschbacherJosef/status/1504447209407926277

CRAAAAAAP !!!!

 :( :( :(
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: woods170 on 03/17/2022 07:29 pm
Over the past two days, our Member States discussed the impact of the war in Ukraine on ESA’s space programmes. Together, we took a tough – but necessary – decision to suspend the launch of ExoMars foreseen for September with Roscosmos, and to study options for a way forward.

https://twitter.com/AschbacherJosef/status/1504447209407926277

CRAAAAAAP !!!!

 :( :( :(

Agreed.

But...

Unavoidable due to the antics of a certain ruler of Russia, as well as the antics of the designated administrator of the Russian space program.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: baldusi on 03/17/2022 08:22 pm
The OneWeb confiscation was really too much. Those are ITAR'd satellites, and even if all hostilities ceased and they wanted to be friends again, they broke the most fundamental guarantee. So I clearly see why ESA did what it did. And while unpleasant and cumbersome, I feel the simply had no other option.
If they had returned the satellites, and think a lot of other options would have been available. I do have hopes, though, that withing the huge costs that Europe is willing to pay to separate themselves from Russia, adding an Ariane 6 plus an EDL, will be relatively "little" money. The Germans announced a 100B + 8.0GDP increase on defense, plus covering the extra cost of energy. So an extra billion to share among all the countries it shouldn't be "too much" and will realize an old European dream. I'm actually hopeful that while delayed to 2028/9, it will fly.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 03/17/2022 08:51 pm
The OneWeb confiscation was really too much. Those are ITAR'd satellites, and even if all hostilities ceased and they wanted to be friends again, they broke the most fundamental guarantee.

A classic example of the old saying about cutting off your nose to spite your face--issuing that order on OneWeb meant that Russia would not get future revenue. But Rogozin has to posture to prove his loyalty to his boss.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: redliox on 03/17/2022 09:47 pm
But Rogozin has to posture to prove his loyalty to his boss.

I hate when the politician-side shows it's ugly face; deep down he probably knows the whole Ukraine fiasco is going to cost Roscosmos a great deal in the long run; they still have their landing platform and rocket but I recall how ESA developed a decent share of the more intricate details.  I could see, funding allowing, Roscosmos pushing a lander mission on their own but the Achilles' heel of the most recent Mars missions seemed to be upper stage failures.

I'll never be a fan of Russia, but I do mourn when their planetary missions fail.  :(
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: baldusi on 03/17/2022 10:47 pm
But Rogozin has to posture to prove his loyalty to his boss.

I hate when the politician-side shows it's ugly face; deep down he probably knows the whole Ukraine fiasco is going to cost Roscosmos a great deal in the long run; they still have their landing platform and rocket but I recall how ESA developed a decent share of the more intricate details.  I could see, funding allowing, Roscosmos pushing a lander mission on their own but the Achilles' heel of the most recent Mars missions seemed to be upper stage failures.

I'll never be a fan of Russia, but I do mourn when their planetary missions fail.  :(

It's a bit deeper than that. Soyuz on Guiana was almost a fully Russian operation. Anything on Baikonour, Voistochny, and even SeaLaunch (which was working on doing a fully Russian launch system with Souyz-5), will never ever again be trusted with ITAR'd technology. And probably the same for French, German, Italian, Dutch and English laws. That means never selling another launch service for international customers... ever. And same might apply for commercial or non-military payloads. Do you know what is to build a satellite without MMU, TWT, CPU, RAM, DC-DC converters and such that everybody takes for granted now a days? This might have killed Progress, Energyia, and their commercial comm fleets. For a country that relies heavily on satellites because laying fiber is ridiculously expensive for such a huge country.
On the other hand, we know perfectly well that this may actually help ESA, since realistically it is nothing in expenditure in comparison to the rest of national budgets, it's just that it is not such a priority for the Minister's Commision. And making the financial effort to actually do the whole system will give them a lot of new capabilities and, more importantly, more interrelationships.
The Ariane/Vega programs have shown that increases in budget tend to increase the paying country participation, irrespective of price efficiency nor overlap. Artris is a great example of the Germans wanting their orbital stage. It's an AVUM+ with enlarged tanks. But fully German.
For ExoMars, they will have to pony up for a single cause. Which I think it's a very positive thing.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: edzieba on 03/18/2022 12:25 pm
The OneWeb confiscation
What Oneweb confiscation?
Most recent news was that Oneweb staff were in the process of propellant unload and safeing of the satellites in preparation for removing them from the payload dispenser for storage.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: woods170 on 03/18/2022 01:24 pm
The OneWeb confiscation
What Oneweb confiscation?
Most recent news was that Oneweb staff were in the process of propellant unload and safeing of the satellites in preparation for removing them from the payload dispenser for storage.

You said it: "Storage". As in: storage at Baikonur. Which is a Russian enclave in Kazakhstan.

The Russians have not allowed OneWeb to fly the satellites back to the USA or the UK. Which effectively means that Russia has indeed confiscated that particular load of OneWeb satellites.

And you can bet a crate of beer on it that the Russians won't release the satellites unless they get something in return.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: edzieba on 03/18/2022 01:39 pm
The Russians have not allowed OneWeb to fly the satellites back to the USA or the UK.
They haven't even gotten them all off of the rocket yet. Parking a truck next to the stack and carrying the satellites between them one by one is not an option, hence 'storing' the satellites in one place in between removing them from the vehicle and moving them somewhere else.

If Russia had in any way indicated they intend to prevent Oneweb continuing to move their satellites around (as they currently are doing) do you really think Oneweb would be keeping silent about it rather than applying political pressure to aid their recovery?
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: russianhalo117 on 03/18/2022 02:48 pm
The OneWeb confiscation
What Oneweb confiscation?
Most recent news was that Oneweb staff were in the process of propellant unload and safeing of the satellites in preparation for removing them from the payload dispenser for storage.
Their green propellant per RSW is loaded at the manufacturing facility and shipped to the launch site with loaded tanks. They would ship back at some future point in the same state after reinstalling all of the remove before flight hardware.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: MattMason on 03/18/2022 03:40 pm
While NASA might be able to fast-track a Franklin rover landing system, I lean to a less complicated opinion.

CNSA already landed a similarly-designed rover-carrier with Tianwen-1/Zhurong. They may have a flight spare that will save some development time.

And CNSA's Long March 5 could make a repeat performance, solving the launch vehicle issue.

ESA would be understandably against the only operational launch vehicle handy, Falcon Heavy, if ULA Vulcan is not available. I'm sure they'd prefer Ariane 6 for obvious reasons here. Unlike NASA and their ITAR restrictions, ESA has no such obligation to adhere directly to NASA-ITAR except as a courtesy to our agency.

The larger issue remains of any Russian-provided resources on Franklin herself, such as the radioisotope heating elements.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/18/2022 05:32 pm
The OneWeb confiscation
What Oneweb confiscation?
Most recent news was that Oneweb staff were in the process of propellant unload and safeing of the satellites in preparation for removing them from the payload dispenser for storage.
OneWeb is not allowed to take them back. So no matter where they get "put", they are gone. If russia hasn't opened them up to inspect the technology yet, its only a matter of time.


While NASA might be able to fast-track a Franklin rover landing system, I lean to a less complicated opinion.

CNSA already landed a similarly-designed rover-carrier with Tianwen-1/Zhurong. They may have a flight spare that will save some development time.

And CNSA's Long March 5 could make a repeat performance, solving the launch vehicle issue.

ESA would be understandably against the only operational launch vehicle handy, Falcon Heavy, if ULA Vulcan is not available. I'm sure they'd prefer Ariane 6 for obvious reasons here. Unlike NASA and their ITAR restrictions, ESA has no such obligation to adhere directly to NASA-ITAR except as a courtesy to our agency.

The larger issue remains of any Russian-provided resources on Franklin herself, such as the radioisotope heating elements.
Another thing to consider is Mars Sample Return. Thats gonna be eating ALL the mars budgets for the entire decade. Its quite possible the exomars is dead, because there isn't the money to design and build a new lander plus replace all the russian parts on the rover. NASA has Boeing/SLS noose around its neck with a $4 billion LAUNCH ONLY cost of an SLS. Plus it needs to start replacing the ISS.
I don't see a realistic world where NASA has the money to do anything about exomars. A new lander would be the price of an entire mission, yet supporting exomars probably won't be in line with the new decadal survey.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: libra on 03/18/2022 05:53 pm
The OneWeb confiscation
What Oneweb confiscation?
Most recent news was that Oneweb staff were in the process of propellant unload and safeing of the satellites in preparation for removing them from the payload dispenser for storage.

You said it: "Storage". As in: storage at Baikonur. Which is a Russian enclave in Kazakhstan.

The Russians have not allowed OneWeb to fly the satellites back to the USA or the UK. Which effectively means that Russia has indeed confiscated that particular load of OneWeb satellites.

And you can bet a crate of beer on it that the Russians won't release the satellites unless they get something in return.

Fact is Russian airlines had more than 500 airliners in leasing, and only 24 have been recovered so far. General consensus is: they are lost forever.

No idea if they can do the same with Oneweb satellites - but one thing is sure at least: that project is quite jinxed. 
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Star One on 03/18/2022 07:28 pm
The OneWeb confiscation
What Oneweb confiscation?
Most recent news was that Oneweb staff were in the process of propellant unload and safeing of the satellites in preparation for removing them from the payload dispenser for storage.
OneWeb is not allowed to take them back. So no matter where they get "put", they are gone. If russia hasn't opened them up to inspect the technology yet, its only a matter of time.


While NASA might be able to fast-track a Franklin rover landing system, I lean to a less complicated opinion.

CNSA already landed a similarly-designed rover-carrier with Tianwen-1/Zhurong. They may have a flight spare that will save some development time.

And CNSA's Long March 5 could make a repeat performance, solving the launch vehicle issue.

ESA would be understandably against the only operational launch vehicle handy, Falcon Heavy, if ULA Vulcan is not available. I'm sure they'd prefer Ariane 6 for obvious reasons here. Unlike NASA and their ITAR restrictions, ESA has no such obligation to adhere directly to NASA-ITAR except as a courtesy to our agency.

The larger issue remains of any Russian-provided resources on Franklin herself, such as the radioisotope heating elements.
Another thing to consider is Mars Sample Return. Thats gonna be eating ALL the mars budgets for the entire decade. Its quite possible the exomars is dead, because there isn't the money to design and build a new lander plus replace all the russian parts on the rover. NASA has Boeing/SLS noose around its neck with a $4 billion LAUNCH ONLY cost of an SLS. Plus it needs to start replacing the ISS.
I don't see a realistic world where NASA has the money to do anything about exomars. A new lander would be the price of an entire mission, yet supporting exomars probably won't be in line with the new decadal survey.
It would be in line with the fact of NASA leaving ESA high and dry in the first place.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: libra on 03/18/2022 07:35 pm
Back to square one. Poor Exomars is kind of jinxed since, what, 2010 ?
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: russianhalo117 on 03/18/2022 10:50 pm
Back to square one. Poor Exomars is kind of jinxed since, what, 2010 ?
ExoMars programme morphed from the Beagle series of which Beagle-2 failed to land on 25 December 2003, 02:45 UTC. The Schiaparelli demonstration lander which failed to land in 2016 morphed from the Beagle-2 follow on programme (formerly known as Beagle-2E and Beagle 3 in the beginning stages). The current mission was to rectify the previous 2 landing failures.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Jimmy Murdok on 03/18/2022 11:14 pm
Might sound crazy, but at this point it might make the most sense to carry the rover on the first or second cargo Starship. Good for SpaceX and allow to forget about a new specialised lander that will not come.
Nasa already has too much on its plate with the return sample mission, and for Europe it would not be easy to pony up the money.
The worst would be for it to stay grounded forever.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: russianhalo117 on 03/18/2022 11:59 pm
Might sound crazy, but at this point it might make the most sense to carry the rover on the first or second cargo Starship. Good for SpaceX and allow to forget about a new specialised lander that will not come.
Nasa already has too much on its plate with the return sample mission, and for Europe it would not be easy to pony up the money.
The worst would be for it to stay grounded forever.
Starship doesn't yet meet certification requirements to be awarded for a government mission by the hypothetical target deadline. It is definitely not a risk a science mission would want to take. Also given the onboard Radioisotope Heater Units (RHU) that limits the launchers available in certain cases. The only US ones approved for radioactive certification that are presently flying but are no longer available for order are DIVH with Titan PLF and Atlas-V. Vulcan will be the successor to be approved in the short term future.
Jim and others cam confirm regarding the required radioactive material certification process, tiers, and launchers certified.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: su27k on 03/19/2022 02:14 am
While NASA might be able to fast-track a Franklin rover landing system, I lean to a less complicated opinion.

CNSA already landed a similarly-designed rover-carrier with Tianwen-1/Zhurong. They may have a flight spare that will save some development time.

And CNSA's Long March 5 could make a repeat performance, solving the launch vehicle issue.

Flirting with an authoritarian country is how ExoMars got into trouble in the first place, now you want them to jump in bed with a bigger authoritarian country, yeah that'll end well...
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: russianhalo117 on 03/19/2022 02:21 am
While NASA might be able to fast-track a Franklin rover landing system, I lean to a less complicated opinion.

CNSA already landed a similarly-designed rover-carrier with Tianwen-1/Zhurong. They may have a flight spare that will save some development time.

And CNSA's Long March 5 could make a repeat performance, solving the launch vehicle issue.

Flirting with an authoritarian country is how ExoMars got into trouble in the first place, now you want them to jump in bed with a bigger authoritarian country, yeah that'll end well...
The two agencies do have active collaborative projects and activities. However CNSA would require new build hardware outside of their internal Mars programme.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: su27k on 03/19/2022 02:30 am
While NASA might be able to fast-track a Franklin rover landing system, I lean to a less complicated opinion.

CNSA already landed a similarly-designed rover-carrier with Tianwen-1/Zhurong. They may have a flight spare that will save some development time.

And CNSA's Long March 5 could make a repeat performance, solving the launch vehicle issue.

Flirting with an authoritarian country is how ExoMars got into trouble in the first place, now you want them to jump in bed with a bigger authoritarian country, yeah that'll end well...
The two agencies do have active collaborative projects and activities. However CNSA would require new build hardware outside of their internal Mars programme.

Without being political and off topic, I'll just say given what happened, I think it's high time for ESA to re-consider these collaboration and activities as well.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: russianhalo117 on 03/19/2022 03:03 am
While NASA might be able to fast-track a Franklin rover landing system, I lean to a less complicated opinion.

CNSA already landed a similarly-designed rover-carrier with Tianwen-1/Zhurong. They may have a flight spare that will save some development time.

And CNSA's Long March 5 could make a repeat performance, solving the launch vehicle issue.

Flirting with an authoritarian country is how ExoMars got into trouble in the first place, now you want them to jump in bed with a bigger authoritarian country, yeah that'll end well...
The two agencies do have active collaborative projects and activities. However CNSA would require new build hardware outside of their internal Mars programme.

Without being political and off topic, I'll just say given what happened, I think it's high time for ESA to re-consider these collaboration and activities as well.
I wasn't disagreeing just stating the status quo.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Jimmy Murdok on 03/19/2022 07:42 am
Might sound crazy, but at this point it might make the most sense to carry the rover on the first or second cargo Starship. Good for SpaceX and allow to forget about a new specialised lander that will not come.
Nasa already has too much on its plate with the return sample mission, and for Europe it would not be easy to pony up the money.
The worst would be for it to stay grounded forever.
Starship doesn't yet meet certification requirements to be awarded for a government mission by the hypothetical target deadline. It is definitely not a risk a science mission would want to take. Also given the onboard Radioisotope Heater Units (RHU) that limits the launchers available in certain cases. The only US ones approved for radioactive certification that are presently flying but are no longer available for order are DIVH with Titan PLF and Atlas-V. Vulcan will be the successor to be approved in the short term future.
Jim and others cam confirm regarding the required radioactive material certification process, tiers, and launchers certified.

You will find many obstacles. Question is, what is the best solution that does not ground the vehicle?
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: edzieba on 03/19/2022 10:23 am
OneWeb is not allowed to take them back. So no matter where they get "put", they are gone. If russia hasn't opened them up to inspect the technology yet, its only a matter of time.
Oneweb staff are literally handling the satellites as we speak.
The OneWeb confiscation
What Oneweb confiscation?
Most recent news was that Oneweb staff were in the process of propellant unload and safeing of the satellites in preparation for removing them from the payload dispenser for storage.

You said it: "Storage". As in: storage at Baikonur. Which is a Russian enclave in Kazakhstan.

The Russians have not allowed OneWeb to fly the satellites back to the USA or the UK. Which effectively means that Russia has indeed confiscated that particular load of OneWeb satellites.

And you can bet a crate of beer on it that the Russians won't release the satellites unless they get something in return.

Fact is Russian airlines had more than 500 airliners in leasing, and only 24 have been recovered so far. General consensus is: they are lost forever.

No idea if they can do the same with Oneweb satellites - but one thing is sure at least: that project is quite jinxed. 
Irrelevant. The satellites are in Kazakhstan, nor Russia. There is no requirement to fly them on Russian aircraft, and no restrictions on any other nation's aircraft landing in Kazakhstan. Or fly them on any aircraft for that matter, as the satellites are transported in custom ISO containers.


Once again, does anyone have any actual source that Russia are intending to try and prevent Oneweb from removing their satellites? Not just supposition or assumption.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: libra on 03/19/2022 12:01 pm
Quote
There is no requirement to fly them on Russian aircraft, and no restrictions on any other nation's aircraft landing in Kazakhstan. Or fly them on any aircraft for that matter, as the satellites are transported in custom ISO containers.

Completely irrelevant to what I said. I have no clue where does that point come from.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: GWR64 on 03/19/2022 01:37 pm
...Irrelevant. The satellites are in Kazakhstan, nor Russia. There is no requirement to fly them on Russian aircraft, and no restrictions on any other nation's aircraft landing in Kazakhstan. Or fly them on any aircraft for that matter, as the satellites are transported in custom ISO containers.

...

any aircraft?
5 satellite containers witch must fit through the cargo door,
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FLuSV8dXsA8XvxM?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
2 dispenser, ground equipment
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: russianhalo117 on 03/19/2022 03:46 pm
...Irrelevant. The satellites are in Kazakhstan, nor Russia. There is no requirement to fly them on Russian aircraft, and no restrictions on any other nation's aircraft landing in Kazakhstan. Or fly them on any aircraft for that matter, as the satellites are transported in custom ISO containers.

...

any aircraft?
5 satellite containers witch must fit through the cargo door,
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FLuSV8dXsA8XvxM?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
2 dispenser, ground equipment
They do not have to be on the same aircraft. There are western options available. Also this discussion in this thread is off topic.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: gongora on 03/19/2022 04:55 pm
Oneweb discussion needs to move to the Oneweb thread.  Any further Oneweb posts in this thread will be deleted.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Jrcraft on 03/19/2022 06:43 pm
Could the Rosalind Franklin rover be modified to be the "fetch" rover on the sample return mission?
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/19/2022 07:06 pm
Might sound crazy, but at this point it might make the most sense to carry the rover on the first or second cargo Starship. Good for SpaceX and allow to forget about a new specialised lander that will not come.
Nasa already has too much on its plate with the return sample mission, and for Europe it would not be easy to pony up the money.
The worst would be for it to stay grounded forever.
Starship doesn't yet meet certification requirements to be awarded for a government mission by the hypothetical target deadline. It is definitely not a risk a science mission would want to take. Also given the onboard Radioisotope Heater Units (RHU) that limits the launchers available in certain cases. The only US ones approved for radioactive certification that are presently flying but are no longer available for order are DIVH with Titan PLF and Atlas-V. Vulcan will be the successor to be approved in the short term future.
Jim and others cam confirm regarding the required radioactive material certification process, tiers, and launchers certified.

You will find many obstacles. Question is, what is the best solution that does not ground the vehicle?
Its gonna be many years until starship lands on mars. the first one is all but garunteed to crash too. Each attempt is another 2 year wait.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: woods170 on 03/19/2022 08:11 pm
Might sound crazy, but at this point it might make the most sense to carry the rover on the first or second cargo Starship. Good for SpaceX and allow to forget about a new specialised lander that will not come.
Nasa already has too much on its plate with the return sample mission, and for Europe it would not be easy to pony up the money.
The worst would be for it to stay grounded forever.
Starship doesn't yet meet certification requirements to be awarded for a government mission by the hypothetical target deadline. It is definitely not a risk a science mission would want to take. Also given the onboard Radioisotope Heater Units (RHU) that limits the launchers available in certain cases. The only US ones approved for radioactive certification that are presently flying but are no longer available for order are DIVH with Titan PLF and Atlas-V. Vulcan will be the successor to be approved in the short term future.
Jim and others cam confirm regarding the required radioactive material certification process, tiers, and launchers certified.

You will find many obstacles. Question is, what is the best solution that does not ground the vehicle?
Its gonna be many years until starship lands on mars. the first one is all but garunteed to crash too. Each attempt is another 2 year wait.

If you assume that on the first attempt SpaceX will send just one Starship, than you're mistaken.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: russianhalo117 on 03/19/2022 11:53 pm
Could the Rosalind Franklin rover be modified to be the "fetch" rover on the sample return mission?
We would be better off locking this thread and creating a new standalone thread.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/20/2022 01:28 am
Might sound crazy, but at this point it might make the most sense to carry the rover on the first or second cargo Starship. Good for SpaceX and allow to forget about a new specialised lander that will not come.
Nasa already has too much on its plate with the return sample mission, and for Europe it would not be easy to pony up the money.
The worst would be for it to stay grounded forever.
Starship doesn't yet meet certification requirements to be awarded for a government mission by the hypothetical target deadline. It is definitely not a risk a science mission would want to take. Also given the onboard Radioisotope Heater Units (RHU) that limits the launchers available in certain cases. The only US ones approved for radioactive certification that are presently flying but are no longer available for order are DIVH with Titan PLF and Atlas-V. Vulcan will be the successor to be approved in the short term future.
Jim and others cam confirm regarding the required radioactive material certification process, tiers, and launchers certified.

You will find many obstacles. Question is, what is the best solution that does not ground the vehicle?
Its gonna be many years until starship lands on mars. the first one is all but garunteed to crash too. Each attempt is another 2 year wait.

If you assume that on the first attempt SpaceX will send just one Starship, than you're mistaken.
this is uspposed to be exomars. I won't get into starship solving all problems, ending world hunger and curing cancer
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: baldusi on 03/21/2022 07:22 pm
I'm asking because I don't quite understand: are they proposing to morph Rosalind Franklin into the Sample Retrieval Rover?

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1505978430424297478?s=20&t=_Za7M-oPH9SykYLf4MvtHQ
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/21/2022 08:14 pm
I'm asking because I don't quite understand: are they proposing to morph Rosalind Franklin into the Sample Retrieval Rover?

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1505978430424297478?s=20&t=_Za7M-oPH9SykYLf4MvtHQ

I must be missing something, where does it say exomars would become the fetch rover?
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Alpha_Centauri on 03/21/2022 08:33 pm
It doesn't. Launchers are not legos, neither are rovers.

Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 03/21/2022 10:21 pm
I'm asking because I don't quite understand: are they proposing to morph Rosalind Franklin into the Sample Retrieval Rover?

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1505978430424297478?s=20&t=_Za7M-oPH9SykYLf4MvtHQ
I don't see anything about that, nor could the RF be morphed that way. It would be a rebuild.

The slide doesn't say anything about the fetch rover lander platform. If ESA develops that, they might make it suitable to (in separate launches and landings) land RF and the fetch rover. Will be interested to learn more.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: su27k on 03/23/2022 04:03 am
https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1506302935139074052

Quote
At Space Science Week, ESA's Gunther Hasinger is asked about perturbances to Mars Sample Return from changes to MSR architecture + ExoMars situation. He says never let a god crisis go to waste. Maybe some way to combine these two challenges and come up with joint solution.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: russianhalo117 on 03/23/2022 04:07 am
I'm asking because I don't quite understand: are they proposing to morph Rosalind Franklin into the Sample Retrieval Rover?

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1505978430424297478?s=20&t=_Za7M-oPH9SykYLf4MvtHQ
I don't see anything about that, nor could the RF be morphed that way. It would be a rebuild.

The slide doesn't say anything about the fetch rover lander platform. If ESA develops that, they might make it suitable to (in separate launches and landings) land RF and the fetch rover. Will be interested to learn more.
Unrelated missions.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: libra on 03/23/2022 04:55 am
Quote
I won't get into starship solving all problems, ending world hunger and curing cancer

ROTFL
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Athelstane on 03/23/2022 06:04 pm
On Twitter today, ESA Director General Josef Aschbacher fields a question on ExoMars' fate...

(There are two tweets here.)

"Hi Daniel, thanks for the question. @ESA Council has asked for a short #ExoMars Rover mission salvation study. This study will last 3 months (ending in early July) with the objective to find the most effective way, time and resource wise, to land Rosalind Franklin on Mars."

"On the basis of this report, @ESA will present to Member States the merits of each ExoMars alternative scenario covering technical activities, risks, schedule & cost estimates, with a recommendation for Council's approval on a way forward."

https://twitter.com/AschbacherJosef/status/1506658029646790662
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: skizzo on 03/26/2022 01:48 pm
I feel so bad for the scientists envolved in this project
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: jstrotha0975 on 03/26/2022 02:44 pm
I feel so bad for the scientists envolved in this project

If they had launched last year like they were supposed to this wouldn't be an issue.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Athelstane on 03/26/2022 02:51 pm
I feel so bad for the scientists envolved in this project

Indeed.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Athelstane on 03/26/2022 02:53 pm
I feel so bad for the scientists envolved in this project

If they had launched last year like they were supposed to this wouldn't be an issue.

If they had launched in the last synod with the parachute system as it was, all they would have gotten out of it is an impact crater.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: MattMason on 03/26/2022 06:53 pm
I feel so bad for the scientists envolved in this project

If they had launched last year like they were supposed to this wouldn't be an issue.

If they had launched in the last synod with the parachute system as it was, all they would have gotten out of it is an impact crater.

Concur. The 2016 EDM lander already made Schiapparelli Crater #2. Don't need the Rosalind Franklin Crater this way.

Reviewing comments on using CNSA tech for the carrier-lander: I concede the obvious there. ESA's historically been a nice guy in space collaboration, but with only a few exceptions on complex missions (JWST being the most recent) they get burned by the partner withdrawing support or funds.

Hopefully someone has a "dumb carrier option" they could adapt. Lockheed Martin? Got any InSight/Phoenix spacecraft buses you could strip down? A Pathfinder/MER bouncy-ball option likely doesn't fit to Franklin's design and would add more cost.

In any case, yeah, it's time for ESA to cut the collaborative cord for more key missions, and that does include human spaceflight. Relationships are tricksy.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: HoratioNelson on 03/26/2022 08:36 pm
I feel so bad for the scientists envolved in this project

Roscosmos is a state corporation - wholly owned and controlled by the Russian government. Russia invaded Chechnia in 1999, Georgia in 2008, and Ukraine in 2014. Even though they didn't have any ethical qualms, they should have known the world would get fed up with their "partners" sooner or later.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/26/2022 11:54 pm
I feel so bad for the scientists envolved in this project

Roscosmos is a state corporation - wholly owned and controlled by the Russian government. Russia invaded Chechnia in 1999, Georgia in 2008, and Ukraine in 2014. Even though they didn't have any ethical qualms, they should have known the world would get fed up with their "partners" sooner or later.
hindsight is always 20:20
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: skizzo on 03/27/2022 07:43 pm
I feel so bad for the scientists envolved in this project

Roscosmos is a state corporation - wholly owned and controlled by the Russian government. Russia invaded Chechnia in 1999, Georgia in 2008, and Ukraine in 2014. Even though they didn't have any ethical qualms, they should have known the world would get fed up with their "partners" sooner or later.

I mean I can talk about invasions the US and the EU took part in recent decades for their own profit, but let's not get political here. Cause if we're talking about getting rid of dictators there are plenty still causing harm around the world right now, but I guess they aren't that advantageous for economic reasons to get involved.

Which is why I mentioned feeling bad for the scientists and not the corrupt governments involved.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: sdsds on 03/27/2022 08:03 pm
Danger ahead: potentially controversial topic, proceed with caution!

Which US launch system would be best suited to help send Rosalind Franklin towards Mars? Has someone competent done the analysis? The original launch plan called for Soyuz/Fregat, so the mass isn't overwhelming. Also, would any alternative provider have a replacement for the Kazachok lander?

And then hopefully: could a launcher change allow de-scoped science instruments to get back on board?
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: butters on 03/27/2022 08:56 pm
Danger ahead: potentially controversial topic, proceed with caution!

Which US launch system would be best suited to help send Rosalind Franklin towards Mars? Has someone competent done the analysis? The original launch plan called for Soyuz/Fregat, so the mass isn't overwhelming. Also, would any alternative provider have a replacement for the Kazachok lander?

And then hopefully: could a launcher change allow de-scoped science instruments to get back on board?
Vulcan would obviously be the go-to launch system for NASA/JPL Mars landers if that's agreeable for ESA, but Ariane 6 would probably be workable, too. The problem is that Mars Sample Return has recently come to the conclusion that they'll need two landers (one for the fetch rover and one for the MAV) rather than putting it all on one MSL-class lander, and who knows where the budget and production rate would come from to deliver a third Mars lander in this same timeframe.

Short of an indigenous European Mars lander program, there's no way ESA would put their egg in any other basket besides a Viking heritage Mars lander made by JPL. No way they'd see Starship as a viable solution. So ESA either makes a deal with NASA for an MSL-class lander and negotiates the relative priority of Rosalind Franklin versus the NASA/ESA MSR program, or they go their own way on a significantly longer roadmap.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: baldusi on 03/27/2022 10:14 pm
Danger ahead: potentially controversial topic, proceed with caution!

Which US launch system would be best suited to help send Rosalind Franklin towards Mars? Has someone competent done the analysis? The original launch plan called for Soyuz/Fregat, so the mass isn't overwhelming. Also, would any alternative provider have a replacement for the Kazachok lander?

And then hopefully: could a launcher change allow de-scoped science instruments to get back on board?

I think you mean Proton-M/Briz-M. That's something like an Atlas V 411 for escape. So Falcon 9, Atlas V, Vulcan and New Glenn (as well as Ariane 6) should be able. The only issue I see is that I can't recall if Rosaling Franklin doesn't have a radioisotope heating unit. That would require a nuclear-certified rocket and that's currently an Atlas V exclusive.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: russianhalo117 on 03/27/2022 10:27 pm
Danger ahead: potentially controversial topic, proceed with caution!

Which US launch system would be best suited to help send Rosalind Franklin towards Mars? Has someone competent done the analysis? The original launch plan called for Soyuz/Fregat, so the mass isn't overwhelming. Also, would any alternative provider have a replacement for the Kazachok lander?

And then hopefully: could a launcher change allow de-scoped science instruments to get back on board?

I think you mean Proton-M/Briz-M. That's something like an Atlas V 411 for escape. So Falcon 9, Atlas V, Vulcan and New Glenn (as well as Ariane 6) should be able. The only issue I see is that I can't recall if Rosaling Franklin doesn't have a radioisotope heating unit. That would require a nuclear-certified rocket and that's currently an Atlas V exclusive.
It has Russian supplied RHU's per previous posts in addition to those on the now grounded lander.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Athelstane on 03/27/2022 10:30 pm
Danger ahead: potentially controversial topic, proceed with caution!

Which US launch system would be best suited to help send Rosalind Franklin towards Mars? Has someone competent done the analysis? The original launch plan called for Soyuz/Fregat, so the mass isn't overwhelming. Also, would any alternative provider have a replacement for the Kazachok lander?

And then hopefully: could a launcher change allow de-scoped science instruments to get back on board?
Vulcan would obviously be the go-to launch system for NASA/JPL Mars landers if that's agreeable for ESA, but Ariane 6 would probably be workable, too. The problem is that Mars Sample Return has recently come to the conclusion that they'll need two landers (one for the fetch rover and one for the MAV) rather than putting it all on one MSL-class lander, and who knows where the budget and production rate would come from to deliver a third Mars lander in this same timeframe.

Short of an indigenous European Mars lander program, there's no way ESA would put their egg in any other basket besides a Viking heritage Mars lander made by JPL. No way they'd see Starship as a viable solution. So ESA either makes a deal with NASA for an MSL-class lander and negotiates the relative priority of Rosalind Franklin versus the NASA/ESA MSR program, or they go their own way on a significantly longer roadmap.

Since it seems inevitable now that a launch of any possible reworked ExoMars is at least two Mars launch windows away (and probably more than two), the launch vehicle question seems to be a moot point. Ariane 6 is sure to be in operation by 2026, so why wouldn't ESA want to use it? I mean, barring some really major hiccup in Ariane 6's operations. Otherwise, it's simply not comparable to the kind of situation OneWeb or Galileo are in, because it has no urgency to get launched.

No, the real problem is the lander. A "Viking heritage Mars lander made by JPL" is certainly an attractive option in abstract, but ESA clearly has a preference for an indigenous solution. NASA offering to defray some of the cost might turn the tide; but otherwise, I would be reluctant to assume that this is the solution ESA will reach for.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: HoratioNelson on 03/28/2022 05:28 pm
Since it seems inevitable now that a launch of any possible reworked ExoMars is at least two Mars launch windows away (and probably more than two), the launch vehicle question seems to be a moot point. Ariane 6 is sure to be in operation by 2026, so why wouldn't ESA want to use it? I mean, barring some really major hiccup in Ariane 6's operations. Otherwise, it's simply not comparable to the kind of situation OneWeb or Galileo are in, because it has no urgency to get launched.

No, the real problem is the lander. A "Viking heritage Mars lander made by JPL" is certainly an attractive option in abstract, but ESA clearly has a preference for an indigenous solution. NASA offering to defray some of the cost might turn the tide; but otherwise, I would be reluctant to assume that this is the solution ESA will reach for.

ESA signed the ExoMars partnership 5 years after Russia invaded Georgia. And the partnership survived the invasion of Ukraine and consequent sanctions in 2014 , the nerve agent poisonings in 2018, etc. And it just missed flying before this latest escalation. I think they may simply wait and reroll the dice on the timing of sanctions relief vs. another round of invasions.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/28/2022 06:19 pm
Since it seems inevitable now that a launch of any possible reworked ExoMars is at least two Mars launch windows away (and probably more than two), the launch vehicle question seems to be a moot point. Ariane 6 is sure to be in operation by 2026, so why wouldn't ESA want to use it? I mean, barring some really major hiccup in Ariane 6's operations. Otherwise, it's simply not comparable to the kind of situation OneWeb or Galileo are in, because it has no urgency to get launched.

No, the real problem is the lander. A "Viking heritage Mars lander made by JPL" is certainly an attractive option in abstract, but ESA clearly has a preference for an indigenous solution. NASA offering to defray some of the cost might turn the tide; but otherwise, I would be reluctant to assume that this is the solution ESA will reach for.

ESA signed the ExoMars partnership 5 years after Russia invaded Georgia. And the partnership survived the invasion of Ukraine and consequent sanctions in 2014 , the nerve agent poisonings in 2018, etc. And it just missed flying before this latest escalation. I think they may simply wait and reroll the dice on the timing of sanctions relief vs. another round of invasions.

No, there is no going back. Russia has completely pulled out of Ariane Launching of Suyez. They've abandoned multiple payloads that were supposed to launch, even stolen money and satellites (one web) from customers.
Its just not conceivable that ESA could ever trust Roscosmos again (or at least not for a very long time).
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: bolun on 03/28/2022 07:50 pm
Rover ready – next steps for ExoMars

28/03/2022

In brief

ESA’s ExoMars rover is confirmed technically ready for launch, and a fast-track study is under way to determine options for bringing the mission to Mars.

In-depth

The ESA-led Rosalind Franklin rover has a unique potential to search for evidence of past life on Mars thanks to its drill and laboratory. It will be the first rover to drill 2 m below the surface, and the first to use novel driving techniques, including wheel-walking, to overcome obstacles.

Although the 2022 launch window for the mission is no longer possible following the suspension of cooperation with Roscosmos, the mission’s System Qualification and Flight Acceptance Review took place as planned in March. The Review Board confirmed that the spacecraft would have been ready for the timely shipment to the launch site and the programme had a sufficient time margin for the original launch opportunity opening on 20 September 2022.

Due to the suspension of the 2022 launch, the Exomars elements are now being prepared for storage at a Thales Alenia Space site in Italy awaiting further instruction.

The Review Board members specifically expressed their appreciation and thanks to the review team for the exhaustive work performed over the past months.

Based on the decision by ESA Member States at its March Council meeting, a fast-track industrial study will now start to better define the available options for a way forward to implement the ExoMars rover mission in a future launch.

The teams will be looking for the earliest possible launch depending on how quickly technologies can be developed to support a European-led mission, or in collaboration with other international partners, and the availability of compatible launchers and launch site.

“I hope that our Member States will decide that this is not the end of ExoMars, but rather a rebirth of the mission, perhaps serving as a trigger to develop more European autonomy,” says David Parker, Director of Human and Robotic Exploration at ESA.

“We count on brilliant teams and expertise across Europe and with international partners to reshape and rebuild the mission. The team is dedicated and focused on setting out the next steps to ensure we bring this incredible rover to Mars to complete the job it was designed for.”

Meanwhile, the ExoMars Trace Gas Orbiter (TGO) continues to relay the majority of data from Mars, from NASA’s Curiosity and Perseverance rovers as well as its Insight lander. TGO has considerable fuel onboard meaning it could also support data relay from the ExoMars rover in the future as well the Mars Sample Return campaign.

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/Rover_ready_next_steps_for_ExoMars
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: bolun on 04/13/2022 01:47 pm
ESA's press release N° 16–2022 : Redirecting ESA programmes in response to geopolitical crisis

(13 April 2022)

https://www.esa.int/Newsroom/Press_Releases/Redirecting_ESA_programmes_in_response_to_geopolitical_crisis

Quote
Following the Russian aggression against Ukraine, ESA’s Director General has initiated a comprehensive review of all activities currently undertaken in cooperation with Russia and Ukraine. The objective is to determine the possible consequences of this new geopolitical context for ESA programmes and activities and to create a more resilient and robust space infrastructure for Europe.

The ESA Council on 13 April acknowledged the following findings and took the following decisions.

ESA will discontinue cooperative activities with Russia on Luna-25, -26 and -27. As with ExoMars, the Russian aggression against Ukraine and the resulting sanctions put in place represent a fundamental change of circumstances and make it impossible for ESA to implement the planned lunar cooperation.

Quote
Although all the elements of the ExoMars Rover mission (the launcher, carrier module, descent module and Rosalind Franklin rover) have now passed their flight readiness reviews, because cooperation with Roscosmos on ExoMars has been suspended, the mission will not be launched in September this year. Instead, a fast-track study is now under way led by Thales Alenia Space of Italy to assess options for the way forward.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Bean Kenobi on 05/04/2022 08:03 pm
NET 2028  :(

https://spacenews.com/exomars-official-says-launch-unlikely-before-2028/

Quote
A key official for Europe’s ExoMars mission believes that the rover’s launch will be pushed back until at least 2028 to accommodate changes after ending cooperation with Russia.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Zed_Noir on 05/05/2022 03:21 pm
NET 2028  :(

https://spacenews.com/exomars-official-says-launch-unlikely-before-2028/

Quote
A key official for Europe’s ExoMars mission believes that the rover’s launch will be pushed back until at least 2028 to accommodate changes after ending cooperation with Russia.
The rover is staying on Earth until they have a lander for it.

The available options is a Chinese lander or a JPL lander unless a more exotic option is chosen. Think ESA only have until the end of 2023 to select a lander to meet the 2028 launch window.

Don't think ESA can build their own lander in time for the 2028 launch window.

Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 05/05/2022 04:12 pm
NET 2028  :(

https://spacenews.com/exomars-official-says-launch-unlikely-before-2028/

Quote
A key official for Europe’s ExoMars mission believes that the rover’s launch will be pushed back until at least 2028 to accommodate changes after ending cooperation with Russia.
The rover is staying on Earth until they have a lander for it.

The available options is a Chinese lander or a JPL lander unless a more exotic option is chosen. Think ESA only have until the end of 2023 to select a lander to meet the 2028 launch window.

Don't think ESA can build their own lander in time for the 2028 launch window.
Perhaps NASA will build a near duplicate of the sample return lander for ExoMars.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Star One on 05/05/2022 04:27 pm
I thought this was quite interesting from that article as far as cooperation with NASA is concerned on the mission.

Quote
Aschbacher said in an April 6 interview that ESA was working with NASA on potential cooperation with ExoMars while also looking at replacing Russian components of the mission with European alternatives. That will lead to a decision in July on a path forward for ExoMars, which would likely require additional funding that would be requested at ESA’s next ministerial meeting late this year.

A delay to 2028 would mean ExoMars would be launching at the same time as the two landers for the revised Mars Sample Return (MSR) campaign that NASA and ESA are jointly conducting. ESA’s contributions include a rover that would go on one of the landers to pick up samples cached by Perseverance, placing them into a rocket on the other lander that would place the samples in Mars orbit to be picked up and returned to Earth by an ESA orbiter.

That’s led to some speculation in the Mars exploration community that the Rosalind Franklin rover could be repurposed to support the Mars Sample Return effort. Vago said he expected some kind of “quid pro quo” arrangement between NASA and ESA if NASA assisted ESA on ExoMars. That could mean, he said, to “look at both MSR and ExoMars in sort of a holistic way, if you like, and see if we can find solutions that work for both missions.”
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Zed_Noir on 05/05/2022 05:19 pm
<snip>
Perhaps NASA will build a near duplicate of the sample return lander for ExoMars.
That is a JPL lander.
Title: Re: ESA/ex-Roscomos - ExoMars TBD (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: whitelancer64 on 05/05/2022 05:28 pm
<snip>
Perhaps NASA will build a near duplicate of the sample return lander for ExoMars.
That is a JPL lander.

... and JPL is part of ... which government agency was it again?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 05/05/2022 06:36 pm
... and JPL is part of ... which government agency was it again?

Caltech.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: whitelancer64 on 05/05/2022 07:36 pm
... and JPL is part of ... which government agency was it again?

Caltech.

Caltech is contracted by NASA to manage JPL.

"NASA has awarded a contract to Caltech in Pasadena, California, to extend operations of the agency's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, also in Pasadena, for five years, with options for five one-year extensions.

The contract extends the agreement between Caltech and NASA for management of JPL beyond its current expiration date of Sept. 30, 2018, and has a value of $15 billion for five years."

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasa-awards-contract-to-continue-operations-of-jpl
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Nomadd on 05/05/2022 07:39 pm
... and JPL is part of ... which government agency was it again?

Caltech.
The employees are Caltech and not civil. NASA pays all the bills.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 05/05/2022 09:29 pm
... and JPL is part of ... which government agency was it again?

Caltech.
The employees are Caltech and not civil, NASA pays all the bills.
NASA decides on which projects JPL works on (along with under funders, but I believe that NASA is by far the largest funder).

However NASA decides to assist ESA, they likely will assign the project to one of their centers. If it involves substantial lander expertise or hardware, JPL is their center with that expertise and the capacity to build and test hardware.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 05/06/2022 03:17 am
... and JPL is part of ... which government agency was it again?

Caltech.

Caltech is contracted by NASA to manage JPL.

"NASA has awarded a contract to Caltech in Pasadena, California, to extend operations of the agency's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, also in Pasadena, for five years, with options for five one-year extensions.

The contract extends the agreement between Caltech and NASA for management of JPL beyond its current expiration date of Sept. 30, 2018, and has a value of $15 billion for five years."

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasa-awards-contract-to-continue-operations-of-jpl

Sigh. I don't want to get into a peeing match with you about this, but your earlier post implied that you thought that JPL is part of a government agency. It's not. JPL is a government contractor, just like SpaceX.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 05/06/2022 11:41 am
The question of how ESA launches ExoMars is a second-order concern at the moment. The bigger issue is money. ESA has two major Mars commitments, ExoMars and Mars Sample Return. They only have funding for one of them. So the question is what are they going to do about that?

There is a very interesting solution that is being discussed. I don't know how serious it is, but I heard about it a week ago and it would be amazing if it's implemented. I won't share more at this time.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Athelstane on 05/06/2022 01:27 pm
There is a very interesting solution that is being discussed. I don't know how serious it is, but I heard about it a week ago and it would be amazing if it's implemented. I won't share more at this time.

I know you can't tell us, but now you've got me wondering if JPL has a spare lander or skycrane sitting around in storage.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: baldusi on 05/06/2022 01:29 pm
The question of how ESA launches ExoMars is a second-order concern at the moment. The bigger issue is money. ESA has two major Mars commitments, ExoMars and Mars Sample Return. They only have funding for one of them. So the question is what are they going to do about that?

There is a very interesting solution that is being discussed. I don't know how serious it is, but I heard about it a week ago and it would be amazing if it's implemented. I won't share more at this time.

But the amounts needed in comparison to the total packages due to the conflict is pretty small. It is purely a political decision, not a budget one.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 05/06/2022 02:32 pm
I know you can't tell us, but now you've got me wondering if JPL has a spare lander or skycrane sitting around in storage.

No.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 05/06/2022 02:33 pm
But the amounts needed in comparison to the total packages due to the conflict is pretty small. It is purely a political decision, not a budget one.

Okay. I did not know that spare rockets and spacecraft were cheap. But okay.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: edzieba on 05/06/2022 02:40 pm
There is a very interesting solution that is being discussed. I don't know how serious it is, but I heard about it a week ago and it would be amazing if it's implemented. I won't share more at this time.
The 'obvious' one would be use of Rosalind Franklin as the Fetch Rover, but it lacks a sample manipulator arm, sample caching store, and the autonomy for sample location/handling that is intended for the Fetch Rover. Modifications to act as one - along with further modifications for delivery to the surface without Kazachok - seem like they would be more work (and much more headache) than starting design of a new rover based on the experience with Rosalind Franklin and harvesting the occasional subcomponent.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: DanClemmensen on 05/06/2022 02:47 pm

Sigh. I don't want to get into a peeing match with you about this, but your earlier post implied that you thought that JPL is part of a government agency. It's not. JPL is a government contractor, just like SpaceX.

JPL is an FFRDC. I suppose you can call it a "government contractor", but the contractual and legal structure is very different than with a for-profit commercial corporation like SpaceX. See:
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_Propulsion_Laboratory
An FFRDC is much more closely associated with its government customer agency than a typical contractor. Next comes the government-facing division of a big aerospace company like Boeing, ULA, etc., and next comes companies like SpaceX whose government work is a smaller percentage of total revenue.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: whitelancer64 on 05/06/2022 02:58 pm
... and JPL is part of ... which government agency was it again?

Caltech.

Caltech is contracted by NASA to manage JPL.

"NASA has awarded a contract to Caltech in Pasadena, California, to extend operations of the agency's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, also in Pasadena, for five years, with options for five one-year extensions.

The contract extends the agreement between Caltech and NASA for management of JPL beyond its current expiration date of Sept. 30, 2018, and has a value of $15 billion for five years."

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasa-awards-contract-to-continue-operations-of-jpl

Sigh. I don't want to get into a peeing match with you about this, but your earlier post implied that you thought that JPL is part of a government agency. It's not. JPL is a government contractor, just like SpaceX.

JPL is a NASA field center, it is part of NASA.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Don2 on 05/06/2022 07:06 pm
But the amounts needed in comparison to the total packages due to the conflict is pretty small. It is purely a political decision, not a budget one.

Okay. I did not know that spare rockets and spacecraft were cheap. But okay.

Relative to the total cost of responding to the Ukraine conflict, an Exomars rescue would be cheap. The Europeans are looking at rebuilding their energy supply system to eliminate Russian natural gas and oil. That could easily cost more than $100 billion. They are also talking about additional military spending, which could also add up to over $100 billion across Europe.

If there is no additional money then either Exomars or MSR will have to be abandoned. Leaving MSR hurts relations with the US and would blow up the US plans. That is awkward for the US because the Chinese are sounding serious about doing their own sample return. Also, MSR has a bigger scientific return than Exomars.

Abandoning Exomars is politically awkward because it is a symbol of the kind of European cooperation which is very important right now. Also, the Russians will remind people that they were happy to move ahead and it was the European sanctions which stopped the project. I think there might be some additional money available for an Exomars rescue if it is technically feasible.

Is there another option? Perhaps the fetch rover could be eliminated from MSR, and Perseverance could drop the samples next to the sample return lander which could then pick them up with a robot arm. This would be cheaper and quicker than using a fetch rover, but is also more risky. The money saved could then be spent on a lander for Exomars.

A lander built with US assistance could land much more accurately than the original one which would open up a whole new set of landing sites. Recent scientific results indicate that there might be large amounts of ground ice in the Valles Marineris region. About 40% of the material in the top meter of soil appears to be water. With the drill and the mass spectrometers on board, the Exomars rover might be well suited for sampling that. Potentially, they could do some of the science envisioned for the Mars Life Explorer mission proposed by the decadal survey. However, planetary protection concerns might rule that out.

Is the added risk of eliminating the fetch rover acceptable? Curiosity is still running, so the rover design looks robust. The money saved might help ESA to avoid a politically awkward choice between Exomars and MSR. And the science from the ice in Valles Marineris could be very good.

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/ExoMars/ExoMars_discovers_hidden_water_in_Mars_Grand_Canyon
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: ccdengr on 05/06/2022 07:16 pm
Perhaps the fetch rover could be eliminated from MSR, and Perseverance could drop the samples next to the sample return lander which could then pick them up with a robot arm.
I think it's already part of the current baseline (which admittedly changes regularly and is hard to track) that there is an arm (the Sample Transfer Arm) on the lander and that Mars2020 could be used as a backup for the fetch rover.  See https://mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/reports/decadal2023-2032/Decadal%20White%20Paper%20MuirheadBrianK.pdf

Whether eleimating the ESA fetch rover could happen politically or because of additional risk is unknown to me.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: VSECOTSPE on 05/06/2022 07:30 pm
JPL is an FFRDC. I suppose you can call it a "government contractor"

FFRDCs are federal contractors, period.  Everyone (except literally one guy) at JPL is employed as a Caltech contractor, not as a federal civil servant.  Caltech holds the JPL contract and NASA gets work done at JPL by adding task orders to that contract.

Quote
very different than with a for-profit commercial corporation

Doesn’t matter.  All sorts of non-profit organizations are federal contractors.  Another example is the Applied Physics Laboratory (APL), which is a University-Affiliated Research Center (UARC, pronounced you-arc) run by Johns Hopkins University on behalf of the US Navy.  Like JPL, APL does work for other federal and non-federal entities outside its primary contract.  For example, APL’s Space Department has proposed, won, and managed NASA planetary science missions including Dragonfly, DART, New Horizons, MESSENGER, and NEAR.  (They have a bunch more in heliophysics.)

There are many others... Aerospace Corporation, Green Bank Observatory, Lincoln Labs, National Center for Atmospheric Research, National Radio Astronomy Observatory, RAND Corporation, Space Dynamics Laboratory, etc.

JPL is a NASA field center, it is part of NASA.

Lots of national labs are FFRDCs.  Almost every DOE lab is.  That doesn’t mean they’re not part of the Department of Energy.

A major advantage of FFRDCs and UARCs over civil labs is the lack of civil service protections.  It’s very hard to fire a NASA civil servant, it’s hard to retain the best ones, and it takes a long time to hire one.  By comparison, FFRDCs and UARCs can move much more rapidly to bring on talent, pay more to retain the best talent, and more easily remove poor performers.  Because of these greater workforce flexibilities, reorganizing/rebadging NASA’s other fields centers as FFRDCs and UARCs is a perennial subject of reform.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/06/2022 07:38 pm
Okay, NASA uses contractors for all kinds of stuff even on centers. I wouldn’t consider JPL as a contractor in an identical way as SpaceX is. JPL’s website is on NASA’s domain. They use the NASA meatball. SpaceX can’t do that sort of stuff.

I think it’s fair to call JPL’s ExoMars lander a “NASA lander.” Even though, yes, JPL employees are contractors and not civil servants.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/06/2022 07:50 pm
... and JPL is part of ... which government agency was it again?

Caltech.
When I go to JPL’s website (jpl.NASA.gov), I see this definition: “JPL is a federally-funded research and development center managed by Caltech for NASA. We are your space program.”

JPL is part of both NASA and Caltech, in different capacities. Depending on exactly what you mean by “part of.”
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: VSECOTSPE on 05/06/2022 08:05 pm
Okay, NASA uses contractors for all kinds of stuff even on centers. I wouldn’t consider JPL as a contractor in an identical way as SpaceX is. JPL’s website is on NASA’s domain. They use the NASA meatball. SpaceX can’t do that sort of stuff.

The meatball and the worm appear on SpaceX vehicles when used on NASA missions.  I’m looking at Falcon 9s right now with them.

Don’t conflate asset ownership with workforce.  They’re two different things.

Since COTS, NASA human space flight has used a development model where ownership of the hardware/IP resides with the contractor and NASA contracts for subsequent flight/mission services using that hardware/IP, ideally as one of multiple customers.  The idea is that a launch vehicle or capsule can and should serve more customers than NASA and that it is in NASA and nation’s interest to do so where possible.

For the most part, that model does not apply to the science side of NASA.  There are no other customers for a JPL Mars rover.  There’s no point in anyone besides NASA owning that asset.  If CLPS works, that may begin to shift a little, where NASA becomes one of multiple customers for landers owned by Astrobotic and others.  But for the most part, NASA will continue to own its science mission hardware.

But NASA often uses contractors to build (JPL Mars rovers) and operate (JPL runs the DSN) assets owned by NASA.  Another example is the Space Telescope Science Institute (STScI) which is run under a contract held by the Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy (AURA) on NASA’s behalf.  Although a contractor, STScI operates HST, runs the HST observer program, and distributes HST data (and will do so for Webb/JWST).

Whether operated by civil servants or contractors, all sorts of NASA and federal assets are used by other federal, civil, and commercial entities, usually on a reimbursable basis.  Examples include the DSN and TDRSS, practically every NASA acoustic chamber, drop tower, test stand, and wind tunnel, and even oddball stuff like the Neutral Bouyancy Tank.

When it comes to what’s important to this forum — building and operating space missions — both civil servants and contractors are involved.  The distinction doesn’t matter much.  But if you want to be accurate about what JPL and its workforce (or other organizations and their workforces) are, then the terminology matters.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/06/2022 08:15 pm
What I said WAS accurate. It’s somewhat ambiguous what exactly someone means when they say “part of,” and depending on precisely what they mean, JPL either is or is not “part of” NASA. This statement is as correct as you’re going to get in the English language.

I don’t go to SpaceX.nasa.gov to go to SpaceX’s website, for instance. To go to JPL’s I go to JPL.NASA.gov.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 05/06/2022 08:40 pm
JPL is a NASA field center, it is part of NASA.

Nope.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: whitelancer64 on 05/06/2022 08:58 pm
JPL is a NASA field center, it is part of NASA.

Nope.

Care to explain how a NASA field center is not part of NASA?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 05/06/2022 09:30 pm
JPL is a NASA field center, it is part of NASA.

Nope.

Care to explain how a NASA field center is not part of NASA?

It is not a NASA field center. NASA does not own the land, Caltech does. The people who work there are Caltech employees, not civil servants. When I go to Goddard, I am on federal property, and the people I talk to are civil servants. When I go to JPL, I am on Caltech property and the people I talk to are contractors.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: matthewkantar on 05/06/2022 09:43 pm
If I had the money, would JPL build me, say, an Enceladus probe? If I bought several, would NASA  get behind me in line?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 05/06/2022 10:01 pm
Moderator:
In today's mixed-up, shook-up world, I self-identify as the 13th Beatle.

This gives me the power 🔋 💪 🙌 to quote Beatles songs as a NSF moderator. 🎵

Mother Mary told me to tell you: "Let It Be" regarding the discussion of the proper identity for JPL employees in this thread. 🎶

These are Words of Wisdom.

Goo-goo-ga-choob.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: whitelancer64 on 05/06/2022 10:11 pm
JPL is a NASA field center, it is part of NASA.

Nope.

Care to explain how a NASA field center is not part of NASA?

It is not a NASA field center. NASA does not own the land, Caltech does. The people who work there are Caltech employees, not civil servants. When I go to Goddard, I am on federal property, and the people I talk to are civil servants. When I go to JPL, I am on Caltech property and the people I talk to are contractors.

As far as I can tell, that is incorrect.

JPL is a NASA field center.

https://science.nasa.gov/about-us/nasa-centers

NASA owns the land JPL is on, and the buildings, and the equipment within them. JPL is a government facility with privately contracted employees - through Caltech. Caltech manages the property, pays salaries, pays for electricity and water, etc. and gets reimbursed by NASA for those expenses. 
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: baldusi on 05/06/2022 10:37 pm
But the amounts needed in comparison to the total packages due to the conflict is pretty small. It is purely a political decision, not a budget one.

Okay. I did not know that spare rockets and spacecraft were cheap. But okay.

You are misrepresenting my words. I stated that the amounts needed were small in comparison to the total packages, I never said cheap and I try to be very careful with my words since English is not my mother tongue and I tend to lose the subtleties. But I think I was specific enough that the relativity of my assessment was clear.
The conflict increased spending is measured in points of GDP. Just Germany's military spending will be increased by about Euro 225B during the next five years. You have to add the energy, foreign and local aid and subsidies and such. And then multiply that by 2 or 3 for Europe as a whole. We are talking about an increase in budgets measured in trillions of Euro. And some ESA members have been positively shocked since oil prices have skyrocketed. So, it would not be ridiculous that this is funded if the politicians decide to frame that expenditure as "crisis decision" which it is feasible.
An Ariane 64 should cost about 130M Euro and the EDL I would guess and additional 500M. Certainly a huge amount of money, and not "cheap" by any mean. But relatively little money when you are measuring budgets in trillions.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: VSECOTSPE on 05/06/2022 11:25 pm
If I had the money, would JPL build me, say, an Enceladus probe? If I bought several, would NASA  get behind me in line?

JPL has a long history of doing spacecraft and technology work for customers and partners other than NASA and has a separate program office set up for that:

https://nsta.jpl.nasa.gov/commercial-missions-applications
https://nsta.jpl.nasa.gov/defense-missions-applications
https://nsta.jpl.nasa.gov/civil-missions-applications
https://nsta.jpl.nasa.gov/about
https://nsta.jpl.nasa.gov/doing-business

Per the last link, the NASA Contracting Officer at JPL would have to assess whether your Enceladus fleet could be accomplished in the private sector or not.  If not, yeah, in theory, JPL would build it for you.  In reality, something that scale would probably conflict with the NASA missions under development at JPL and some arrangement other than “JPL does it all” would have to be found.  I suspect where things would wind up is that JPL would subcontract with a spacecraft manufacturer for the buses, the instrumentation would be worked at a university or two, and you’d be asked to make a contribution to the DSN via a Reimbursable Space Act Agreement to handle your fleet’s bandwidth burden.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 05/07/2022 12:08 am
Moderator:
I said it in a silly way, 🤪 but I meant what I said.

Stop arguing about what JPL and its employees are or aren't in this thread. It's off-topic and boring. 😴

Moderator:
In today's mixed-up, shook-up world, I self-identify as the 13th Beatle.

This gives me the power 🔋 💪 🙌 to quote Beatles songs as a NSF moderator. 🎵

Mother Mary told me to tell you: "Let It Be" regarding the discussion of the proper identity for JPL employees in this thread. 🎶

These are Words of Wisdom.

Goo-goo-ga-choob.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: redliox on 05/07/2022 02:55 am
To bring this back to topic, why don't we start by listing what components ESA has. It still has the aeroshell, parachutes, and Rover. It obviously needs a replacement lander, but there's an abundance of launchers between America and Europe easily able to replace the Soyuz. Was the cruise stage Russian, or is that a part Europe built?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Zed_Noir on 05/07/2022 04:02 am
To bring this back to topic, why don't we start by listing what components ESA has. It still has the aeroshell, parachutes, and Rover. It obviously needs a replacement lander, but there's an abundance of launchers between America and Europe easily able to replace the Soyuz. Was the cruise stage Russian, or is that a part Europe built?
AIUI. The current ExoMars hardware other than the rover that ESA has, is design to go with the Russian lander. The hardware might not be comparable with a different lander.

The Launch and the interplanetary transit parts of the mission isn't the problem. It is the Martian EDL (Entry, Descend & Landing). IMO. There are currently three non Russian Martian EDL options for ESA to chose from; NASA/JPL, the Chinese and build their own.

However the build their own option will likely not be ready by the 2028 Mars launch window.

Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: ccdengr on 05/07/2022 05:32 pm
Was the cruise stage Russian, or is that a part Europe built?
According to https://exploration.esa.int/web/mars/-/48088-mission-overview the cruise stage was built by ESA.  But the Russian descent system/surface platform is probably the hardest thing to replace since it interfaces to ESA elements in two directions.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: anonymous on 05/22/2022 03:08 pm
An article in Scientific American about whether or not ExoMars has a future:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-nasa-save-europes-beleaguered-mars-rover/

(Sorry for going off topic and not arguing about JPL.)
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Star One on 05/23/2022 06:31 am
I am starting to wonder if the default position in the mainstream scientific media is to assume this project is now dead in the water.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: spacexplorer on 05/26/2022 11:05 am
There are several radiation sources in the descent module.
They were designed to keep the module warm for a couple of years while traveling to Mars.
If the mission would be launched in 2028 or later, will the electronics be fried  by these further 6 years of exposition to radiations?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Welsh Dragon on 05/26/2022 01:59 pm
There are several radiation sources in the descent module.
They were designed to keep the module warm for a couple of years while traveling to Mars.
If the mission would be launched in 2028 or later, will the electronics be fried  by these further 6 years of exposition to radiations?
They're alpha sources right? Shouldn't be any appreciable radiation coming out of their casings, just the heat. Certainly not enough to fry electronics.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: edzieba on 05/26/2022 02:20 pm
I don't think the RHUs have been installed.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 05/26/2022 03:00 pm
One of the first studies being kicked off post-invasion was about the impacts of not having RHUs in Rosalynd Franklin, and what mitigations could be put in place. Those RHUs were to be supplied by Russia, and installed in Baikonur as part of final processing steps.

Evidently they would not be installed before they're absolutely needed regardless of them being Russian or whoever's, being ineffective (or even counter-effective) with Earth's temperatures, for ease of handling and testing in an inhabited environment... and the inexorable fact that their heating power will decrease with time, so what good will RHUs fabricated years and years before launch would do?

There WILL be some appreciable radiation coming off the RHUs, as they use 238Pu. Even if alphas don't escape the casing themselves, there's a fairly abundant gamma emission profile from both nuclear relaxation after those emissions, capture of those alphas (especially by the oxygen in the plutonium oxide the material is actually stored as), further decays in the Pu chain, spontaneous fission and its products, and unavoidable impurities. Some neutrons may also be produced in fission and spallated away too. Shouldn't be much of a problem for electronics though.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 05/26/2022 03:49 pm
1-Evidently they would not be installed before they're absolutely needed regardless of them being Russian or whoever's, being ineffective (or even counter-effective) with Earth's temperatures, for ease of handling and testing in an inhabited environment... and the inexorable fact that their heating power will decrease with time, so what good will RHUs fabricated years and years before launch would do?

2-There WILL be some appreciable radiation coming off the RHUs, as they use 238Pu. Even if alphas don't escape the casing themselves, there's a fairly abundant gamma emission profile from both nuclear relaxation after those emissions, capture of those alphas


1-Yes, as soon as you put them in, they are creating heat, which you then have to remove when the spacecraft is on the ground.

2-A few years ago I saw a photo of the RTG installation on Perseverance. I noticed that there were some people in the room sitting 20 feet away, but there were some smoked glass shields standing in between them. I queried about that, because I thought they only have to deal with alphas. I was told that there is a small gamma emission that comes off the RTGs.

As an expert on this stuff once told me, Pu-238 is the worst isotope, except for all the others.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 06/06/2022 11:29 pm
https://thespacereview.com/article/4398/1

Our Mars rover mission was suspended because of the Ukraine war: here’s what we’re hoping for next
by Andrew Coates
Monday, June 6, 2022
Just a few months ago, we were confidently expecting to launch our rover, Rosalind Franklin, to Mars in September as part of the ExoMars mission, a collaboration between Europe and Russia. The landing was planned for June 2023. Everything was ready: the rover, the operations team, and the eager scientists.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 06/13/2022 03:39 pm
ESA says it has returned to talks with Roscosmos on the ExoMars mission.

06/13/2022 04:53 PM (updated: 06/13/2022 05:05 PM)

PARIS, June 13 - RIA Novosti, Anastasia Ivanova. The European Space Agency (ESA) and the Russian state corporation Roscosmos have returned to discussing the ExoMars mission, new information may appear after June 15, the agency's press service told RIA Novosti.

"We (with Roskosmos - ed.) had discussions regarding the ExoMars mission. New information may appear after the meeting of the Council of the European Space Agency on Wednesday, June 15," a spokesman for the ESA press service said.

Earlier, the agency's ruling council found it impossible to further cooperate with Roskosmos on the ExoMars mission due to the events in Ukraine . The European Space Agency has said it will fully comply with the sanctions measures against Russia .

On February 24, Russia launched a military operation in Ukraine. President Vladimir Putin called its goal "the protection of people who have been subjected to genocide by the Kiev regime for eight years." According to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, as of March 25, the Armed Forces completed the main tasks of the first stage - they significantly reduced the combat potential of Ukraine. The main goal in the Russian military department was called the liberation of Donbass .

https://ria.ru/20220613/eka-1795051771.html
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 06/13/2022 10:00 pm
ESA says it has returned to talks with Roscosmos on the ExoMars mission.

https://ria.ru/20220613/eka-1795051771.html
This is a Russian news site during a war, so I'd like to see independent verification
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 06/13/2022 10:50 pm
ESA says it has returned to talks with Roscosmos on the ExoMars mission.

https://ria.ru/20220613/eka-1795051771.html
This is a Russian news site during a war, so I'd like to see independent verification
Great point - we shouldn't trust this unless it comes from a ESA source.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: owais.usmani on 06/14/2022 08:14 am
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/science/european-space-agency-russias-roscosmos-hold-talks-mars-mission-2022-06-13/ (https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/science/european-space-agency-russias-roscosmos-hold-talks-mars-mission-2022-06-13/)

Quote
June 13 (Reuters) - The European Space Agency (ESA) said on Monday it has held talks with Russia's Roscosmos space agency over the ExoMars rover mission to search for signs of life on the surface of Mars.

The ESA's press office confirmed the talks in an emailed statement, but gave no indication of the outcome. An update could follow a planned ESA Council meeting on Wednesday, it said.

The agency said in March it was suspending cooperation with Roscosmos over their joint ExoMars programme in the wake of Russia's invasion in Ukraine and sanctions imposed on Moscow.

ESA says it has returned to talks with Roscosmos on the ExoMars mission.

https://ria.ru/20220613/eka-1795051771.html
This is a Russian news site during a war, so I'd like to see independent verification

Ok now we have confirmation of the talks from a non-Russian source.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 06/14/2022 10:10 am
Roscosmos confirmed the resumption of consultations with ESA on the ExoMars project.

Roscosmos and ESA resumed consultations on the implementation of the joint ExoMars mission.

07:51 14.06.2022

MOSCOW, June 14 - RIA Novosti. Roscosmos and the European Space Agency (ESA) continue to discuss the possibility of implementing a joint ExoMars mission, RIA Novosti was told in the press service of the Russian state corporation.

Roskosmos and ESA continue working contacts, including on the subject of ExoMars, the source said.

Earlier, ESA announced the impossibility of further cooperation with Roskosmos on the ExoMars mission. Roskosmos CEO Dmitry Rogozin , in turn, said that Russia would independently conduct a mission to Mars, although its preparation would drag on for several years and it would have to be implemented without a rover.

The Proton-M rocket intended for the launch of ExoMars-2022 was sent to the Baikonur Cosmodrome , it is being used for another launch.

The head of the ESA, Josef Aschbacher, said that the agency is now considering NASA as a partner in the Martian mission , and the launch is possible no earlier than 2026. Later, ESA reported that they returned to the discussion of ExoMars with Roscosmos and announced the appearance of new information on June 15.

The start of the second part of the Russian-European ExoMars mission was postponed several times - first from 2018 to 2020, and then due to the difficulties associated with the COVID-19 pandemic, it was postponed to 2022 (the launch window, when it is convenient to fly to Mars from Earth , opens every two years). The Russian landing platform "Kazachok" was supposed to deliver the European rover Rosalind Franklin to the Red Planet. The launch was supposed to be a continuation of the ExoMars-2016 mission, which consisted of the European TGO orbiter with two Russian scientific instruments and the European Schiaparelli lander. In October 2016, TGO went into orbit around Mars and is still operating, while Schiaparelli crashed on landing.

https://ria.ru/20220614/exomars-1795113546.html
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 06/14/2022 11:31 am
According to RIA Novosti, @ESA resumed the discussion with @Roscosmos regarding the #ExoMars mission. “New information may appear after the ESA Council meeting at Wednesday, June 15”, said the representative of the press service to RIA.

https://twitter.com/katlinegrey/status/1536588943977766912
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: su27k on 06/15/2022 05:48 am
https://twitter.com/BBCAmos/status/1535993413094588417

Quote
There are discussions but they are about how to secure and return each other’s equipment. The Kazachok lander is in Italy and has to be returned to Russia, but first its European GNC components have to be removed. The “how” is what they’re talking about.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: daedalus1 on 06/15/2022 06:22 am
They shouldn't resume discussions on anything with Russia while Russia continues to occupy and bomb Ukraine. It is disgusting what Putin is doing.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: bolun on 06/15/2022 03:19 pm
From ESA's press release: N° 30–2022: From the Earth to the Moon and on to Mars – ESA and NASA take decisions and plan for the future (https://www.esa.int/Newsroom/Press_Releases/From_the_Earth_to_the_Moon_and_on_to_Mars_ESA_and_NASA_take_decisions_and_plan_for_the_future)

15 June 2022

Quote
The next steps in exploring and using space for the benefit of European citizens were this week on the agenda at ESA’s Council meeting in ESA/ESTEC, the Netherlands on 14 and 15 June. The possibility of the first-ever European astronaut to set foot on the Moon, a telecommunication satellite for lunar exploration and a mission to return precious rock samples from Mars were all discussed.

NASA Administrator Bill Nelson joined the meeting with ESA Member States in a decisive gesture to advocate for Europe’s strong role in multiple projects which reinforce the enduring partnership between the two leading space agencies.

Quote
Martian horizons

Hunting for signs of past Martian life, the ExoMars 2022 mission was set to fly to the Red Planet later this year, but the launch was cancelled as a consequence of the Russian aggression towards Ukraine.

ESA and NASA are assessing collaboration efforts to implement the mission of the ExoMars rover ‘Rosalind Franklin’. The rover was designed and built to perform as a mobile surface science laboratory platform for drilling Mars soil and conducting science experiments in-situ. NASA has provided key elements of one of the life-search instruments for Rosalind Franklin, MOMA, and already uses the ExoMars Trace Gas Orbiter for relaying science data from its landers and rovers.

ESA’s science and engineering teams are working on a fast-track industrial study to better define the available options for a way forward to implement the ExoMars rover mission.

“In deepening our partnership in Mars exploration, which also includes the ground-breaking Mars Sample Return campaign, NASA is determining how best to support our European friends on the ExoMars mission, says NASA Administrator, Bill Nelson.

“Meanwhile, we will continue to work together on refining the architecture of Mars Sample Return”, added Josef Aschbacher. “Overall, we want to achieve the best scientific return from our collective investments, on both sides of the Atlantic.”

ESA Member States will further discuss the way forward for Rosalind Franklin at their July Council meeting.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 06/15/2022 07:12 pm
https://twitter.com/BBCAmos/status/1535993413094588417

Quote
There are discussions but they are about how to secure and return each other’s equipment. The Kazachok lander is in Italy and has to be returned to Russia, but first its European GNC components have to be removed. The “how” is what they’re talking about.

I'm happy for this clarification. It seems once again its true that if a russian official's lips are moving, they are lying about something (in this case making it seem that esa wants to continue cooperation).
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: russianhalo117 on 06/16/2022 06:26 pm
Paywalled Subscription Article: ExoMars aims for 2028 launch (https://russianspaceweb.com/protected/exomars-2022.html#0616)
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Dalhousie on 06/17/2022 02:30 am
Paywalled Subscription Article: ExoMars aims for 2028 launch (https://russianspaceweb.com/protected/exomars-2022.html#0616)

Can you provide a summary of the salient points please?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: AstroWare on 06/17/2022 12:41 pm
Most of the conversations following the decision to end ESA/Roscosmos cooperation have been about how to get the Rosalind Franklin Rover to the surface.

Have the Russians indicated they are working on a plan to still get their lander to Mars? It's a rather well instrumented platform itself. As I understand it they would need at minimum a transit stage to get from launch to entry interface. Then there is the payload capability of the lander which they may want to utilize (more stationary instruments, or perhaps a Rover)
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: anonymous on 06/22/2022 08:42 pm
European Space Agency expects NASA backing for suspended Mars mission

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/science/european-space-agency-expects-nasa-backing-suspended-mars-mission-2022-06-22/

Quote
"Administrator Bill Nelson has given us a clear message: NASA wants to help Europe in this situation," ESA Director General Josef Aschbacher told reporters on Wednesday at a news conference at the ILA Berlin Air Show trade fair.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Timber Micka on 06/22/2022 10:04 pm
Remember when NASA was supposed to bring the ExoMars rover to Mars? The main argument was that the mission embarked both an American rover (MAX-C) and the ESA rover, and was going to reuse as much as possible the technologies developed for MSL to save money (cruise stage, parachute, skycrane).

Now if NASA agrees to bring the ExoMars rover to Mars they have two options:
A - They reuse the technology used on MSL and Mars2020, with the skycrane. The advantage is that it is a proven technology, which has worked twice without problems. The disadvantage is that it is a method that is designed to land rovers much larger than ExoMars and therefore there will be wasted payload capacity on board. It also seems expansive.
B - They reuse the platform used on Phoenix/InSight. Producing a new lander of this type should be feasible for Lockheed Martin. It's also a proven technique that has worked twice. The shape of the lander is similar to that of the Russian lander that was to carry ExoMars, as well as its operation. China's Zhurong rover used a very similar lander. The unit price for this type of lander seems to be much lower than MSL/Mars2020 (although I'm having trouble finding numbers that don't include the rover for these). The downside is that the ExoMars rover is heavier than Zhurong and MER-class rovers, and NASA had studied the Mars landing of a MER-class rover aboard a Phoenix-class lander (Athena, on Mars Surveyor 2001) before giving up because of the technical difficulties involved and high development costs. That was 20 years ago, but would NASA/JPL encounter the same problems today?

One solution that could make Option A more cost effective would be to bring ExoMars and the MSR Fetch Rover together under the skycrane (as originally planned for ExoMars and MAX-C). As the Fetch Rover is supposed to be a minimal version of the ExoMars rover devoid of any scientific equipment, I believe that by 2028 it should be ready to launch. A negative consequence of this solution is that the ExoMars rover would end up at Jezero crater, which is already being explored by Perseverance, and that would make the mission less attractive scientifically.

Well that's my thoughts as someone who doesn't work in aerospace, I'm sure the folks at JPL will know what the best option is (if NASA agrees to help ESA).

EDIT: I added an exploded view of the setup for MAX-C/ExoMars so that you can better visualize what option A would look like (just imagine that on the right, instead of MAX-C, there is a second rover similar to ExoMars.)
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 06/23/2022 09:52 am
ESA wants to discuss with Russia the return of equipment for ExoMars.

ESA chief Aschbacher wants to discuss return of equipment for ExoMars with Russia.

11:05 06/23/2022

MOSCOW, June 23 - RIA Novosti. The head of the European Space Agency, Josef Aschbacher, said it was necessary to discuss with Russia the return of equipment that was supposed to be used for the joint ExoMars mission.

The ruling council of the agency found it impossible to further cooperate with Roskosmos on the ExoMars mission due to the events in Ukraine. The European Space Agency has said it will fully comply with the sanctions measures against Russia. However, last week the press service of Roskosmos told RIA Novosti that the state corporation and the European Space Agency continue to discuss the possibility of implementing a joint mission.

"Most of the ExoMars equipment is in Italy , there are Russian components among it. We also have other equipment in Russia . And we need to discuss what to do. Europe needs to return its components, and the Russians want to return theirs," Reuters quoted the words Ashbacher.

https://ria.ru/20220623/exomars-1797498133.html
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 06/23/2022 06:56 pm
Roscosmos and ESA are discussing the return of equipment for the ExoMars mission.

Roscosmos and ESA are discussing the mutual return of equipment for the ExoMars-2022 mission.

06/23/2022 19:48 (updated: 06/23/2022 20:34)

MOSCOW, June 23 - RIA Novosti. Roskosmos and the European Space Agency are discussing the mutual return of equipment that should have been used in the ExoMars-2022 mission, while ESA notified the state corporation that the final decision would be made in July 2022, the press service of the Russian state corporation said on Thursday.

"Currently, the State Corporation Roscosmos and ESA continue to discuss and analyze the current situation and options for further actions, one of which may be the return to the Russian Federation of Russian equipment located on the territory of the EU, and the return to ESA of European equipment located on the territory of the Russian Federation ", the message says.

"According to the information provided by ESA, in July 2022, a regular meeting of the Council of ESA Member States is planned, following which the European side will decide on the future of the project," Roscosmos said.

It is specified that the final decision on the further implementation of the Mars exploration project, including with possible international participation, will be made by the State Corporation Roscosmos after receiving official information from the ESA on the results of the meeting of the ESA member countries in July.

Earlier, the head of the European Space Agency, Josef Aschbacher, said that it was necessary to discuss with Russia the return of equipment that was supposed to be used for the joint ExoMars mission.

The ruling council of the agency found it impossible to further cooperate with Roskosmos on the ExoMars mission due to the events in Ukraine. The European Space Agency has said it will fully comply with the sanctions measures against Russia. However, last week the press service of Roskosmos told RIA Novosti that the state corporation and the European Space Agency continue to discuss the possibility of implementing a joint mission.

The general director of Roscosmos , Dmitry Rogozin , said earlier that Russia would independently conduct a mission to Mars , although its preparation would drag on for several years and it would have to be implemented without a rover.

The Proton-M rocket intended for the launch of ExoMars-2022 was sent to the Baikonur Cosmodrome , it is being used for another launch. ESA is considering NASA as a Mars mission partner , with a launch possible no earlier than 2026.

The start of the second part of the Russian-European ExoMars mission was postponed several times - first from 2018 to 2020, and then due to the difficulties associated with the COVID-19 pandemic, it was postponed to 2022 (the launch window, when it is convenient to fly to Mars from Earth , opens every two years). The Russian landing platform "Kazachok" was supposed to deliver the European rover Rosalind Franklin to the Red Planet. The launch was supposed to be a continuation of the ExoMars-2016 mission, which consisted of the European TGO orbiter with two Russian scientific instruments and the European Schiaparelli lander. In October 2016, TGO went into orbit around Mars and is still operating, while Schiaparelli crashed on landing.

https://ria.ru/20220623/exomars-1797685649.html
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 06/23/2022 06:58 pm
Roscosmos is preparing for a possible ESA exit from the ExoMars-2022 project.

Roscosmos: jointly with the European Space Agency, the issue of mutual return of equipment for the ExoMars-2022 mission is being resolved.

MOSCOW, June 23/ Radio Sputnik. Russian specialists, together with colleagues from the European Space Agency (ESA), are discussing the mutual return of equipment involved in the ExoMars-2022 mission. This was reported in the state corporation "Roscosmos".

"Currently, the State Corporation Roscosmos and ESA continue to discuss and analyze the current situation and options for further actions, one of which may be the return to the Russian Federation of Russian equipment located on the territory of the EU, and the return to ESA of European equipment located on the territory of the Russian Federation ", - quotes RIA Novosti a fragment of the message of the press service of Roskosmos.

The state corporation clarified that the ESA will make a decision on the ExoMars-2022 mission in July at a meeting of the Council of the agency's participating countries.

The final fate of the project will be determined by the Russian side, taking into account the results of the upcoming ESA meeting, Roscosmos added.

Earlier, Sputnik radio told how the head of Roskosmos, Dmitry Rogozin, commented on the situation with the German eROSITA telescope at the Spektr-RG space observatory.

https://radiosputnik.ria.ru/20220623/roskosmos-1797693526.html
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 06/24/2022 12:27 am
Roscosmos shared a note about the current status of the #ExoMars mission. According to them, @Roscosmos and @ESA continue to discuss the options for the mission, one of which may be to return to Russia the Russian equipment located on the territory of the EU...

... and to return to ESA the European equipment located on the territory of the RF. A regular meeting of the Council of ESA member States is planned in July, following which the European side will decide on the future of the project...

...The final decision on the Russian side on the fate of the ExoMars project, including with possible international participation, will be made by Roscosmos after receiving official information from ESA.

https://twitter.com/katlinegrey/status/1540080967293050881
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: redliox on 06/24/2022 01:09 am
I'm sure ESA will return the remaining hardware with a lil blue and gold bow attached.

How credible is the Roscosmos statement?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 06/24/2022 01:34 pm
I'm sure ESA will return the remaining hardware with a lil blue and gold bow attached.

How credible is the Roscosmos statement?
As credible as all the rest....
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 06/25/2022 09:52 am
Rogozin said he does not believe in the implementation of ExoMars together with Europe.

The head of Roskosmos, Rogozin, said he does not believe in the implementation of ExoMars together with Europe.

11:32 06/25/2022

MOSCOW, June 25 - RIA Novosti. Director General of Roscosmos Dmitry Rogozin said he did not believe in the possibility of implementing the second part of the ExoMars project together with Europe.

"The British interlocutor told us that, of course, on behalf of the European Space Agency, together with the leaders Josef Aschbacher, he will turn to the conglomerate of EU countries that are members of the space community to obtain consent for 2024. I do not believe in this," Rogozin said. on the air of the TV channel "Russia 24" .

According to him, as one of the options, a return to joint work on a mission with a possible launch in 2024 was considered. Another option is to terminate the interaction and send European equipment from Russia and Russian equipment back from Europe.

"I think that, given the madness that is happening today in European capitals, they are ready to sacrifice not only joint programs, but the well-being and security of their own citizens," Rogozin added.

Earlier, Roskosmos reported that they were discussing with ESA the situation around ExoMars-2022 and options for further actions, one of which could be the return of Russian equipment located on the territory of the EU to the Russian Federation and the return of European equipment located on the territory of Russia to ESA.

Earlier, the head of the European Space Agency, Aschbacher, said that it was necessary to discuss with Russia the return of equipment that was supposed to be used for the joint ExoMars mission.

The ruling council of the agency found it impossible to further cooperate with Roskosmos on the ExoMars mission due to the events in Ukraine. The European Space Agency has said it will fully comply with the sanctions measures against Russia. However, last week the press service of Roskosmos told RIA Novosti that the state corporation and the European Space Agency continue to discuss the possibility of implementing a joint mission.

Rogozin previously said that Russia would independently conduct a mission to Mars , although its preparation would drag on for several years and it would have to be implemented without a rover.

The Proton-M rocket intended for the launch of ExoMars-2022 was sent to the Baikonur Cosmodrome , it is being used for another launch. ESA is considering NASA as a partner in the Mars mission , and the launch is possible no earlier than 2026.

The start of the second part of the Russian-European ExoMars mission was postponed several times - first from 2018 to 2020, and then due to the difficulties associated with the COVID-19 pandemic, it was postponed to 2022 (the launch window, when it is convenient to fly to Mars from Earth , opens every two years). The Russian landing platform "Kazachok" was supposed to deliver the European rover Rosalind Franklin to the Red Planet. The launch was supposed to be a continuation of the ExoMars-2016 mission, which consisted of the European TGO orbital module with two Russian scientific instruments and the European Schiaparelli lander. In October 2016, TGO went into orbit around Mars and is still operating, while Schiaparelli crashed on landing.

https://ria.ru/20220625/exomars-1798062440.html
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 06/29/2022 12:53 am
Rogozin said when the European agency will give an answer on ExoMars.

Rogozin: ESA will inform Roskosmos on July 15 whether it will cooperate on the ExoMars mission.

03:08 29.06.2022

MOSCOW, June 29 - RIA Novosti. On July 15, the European Space Agency will give Roscosmos a final answer on its readiness to send a joint ExoMars mission in 2024, Dmitry Rogozin, CEO of the state corporation, told RIA Novosti.

"On July 15, there will be clarity on the response of the European Space Agency , they will tell us the opinions of the member countries as to whether it is possible to fly in 2024. If it is not possible, then this will be a national mission, which we ourselves will have to prepare," said Rogozin .

At the same time, he clarified that he does not believe that the ESA can decide to still carry out the mission together with Russia in 2024.

“With such barking that sounds in Brussels , there can be no talk of this, so we are going on a national mission, there is no doubt about that,” Rogozin added.

According to him, as one of the options, a return to joint work on a mission with a possible launch in 2024 was considered. Another option is to terminate the interaction and send European equipment from Russia and Russian equipment back from Europe .

ESA ended cooperation with Roskosmos on ExoMars in March due to events in Ukraine . However, then it became known that the state corporation and the agency were discussing the possibility of implementing the mission jointly. Later it became known that the parties are discussing only the mutual return of equipment.

Rogozin said earlier that Russia would independently conduct a mission to Mars, although its preparation would drag on for several years and would have to be implemented without a rover.

The start of the second part of the Russian-European mission ExoMars , originally scheduled for 2018, was postponed several times and was postponed until 2022 until another deterioration in relations between the Russian Federation and the West. The Russian landing platform "Kazachok" was supposed to deliver the European rover Rosalind Franklin to the Red Planet. The launch was supposed to be a continuation of the ExoMars-2016 mission, which consisted of the European TGO orbital module with two Russian scientific instruments and the European Schiaparelli lander. In October 2016, TGO went into orbit around Mars and is still operating, while Schiaparelli crashed on landing.

https://ria.ru/20220629/exomars-1798892498.html
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 06/29/2022 02:22 pm
This is all just more lies by that creep who runs roscosmos. There won't be any joint mission, and the discussion was never about that, it was only about returning equipment.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Timber Micka on 07/03/2022 04:02 pm
“With such barking that sounds in Brussels , there can be no talk of this, so we are going on a national mission, there is no doubt about that,” Rogozin added.

ESA's headquarters are in Paris. ESA and the European Union are two different, unrelated institutions. Some ESA members are not EU members, including two major contributors (Switzerland and the UK).
It's pathetic that the head of a major space agency doesn't know that.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 07/12/2022 05:49 pm
Benefitting exactly nobody (except perhaps Rogozin's pockets) and out of options after almost 5 months of aggression war with no end or compromise in sight, what was a suspension is now a termination of the ESA-Roscosmos collaboration in ExoMars:

https://mobile.twitter.com/AschbacherJosef/status/1546899248444219392

These months should have been employed on final preps and the launch campaign, perhaps allowing both Europe and Russia to confidently and meaningfully land on Mars for the first time. Now instead, neither will, the latter most probably never in the foreseeable future, given the swift and relentless gutting of the country's space program by the organized criminality butchers leading it, and the acquiescence of a significant portion of a population once proud of its space ventures.

Rosalind Franklin is also now in a deeper limbo, with a two-window delay now inevitable, and the possibility of its obsolescence by the time it can launch now a distinct one. Hope all the parachute work will somehow be put to good use, after so much effort.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 07/12/2022 07:22 pm
In response to the suspension of the cooperation on #ExoMars, Rogozin announced the suspension of the cooperation on #ERA manipulator on the #ISS. The problem is that @Roscosmos will suffer from his decision more than @esa.

https://twitter.com/katlinegrey/status/1546921083739283458
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 07/13/2022 12:27 am
ESA will not resume cooperation with Roscosmos on the ExoMars mission.

ESA head Ashbacher announced the termination of cooperation with Roskosmos on ExoMars.

07/12/2022 20:14 (updated: 07/12/2022 20:44)

MOSCOW, July 12 - RIA Novosti. The European Space Agency (ESA) will not resume cooperation with Roskosmos on the joint ExoMars mission, ESA head Josef Aschbacher said.

ESA ended cooperation with Roskosmos on ExoMars in March due to events in Ukraine . However, then it became known that the state corporation and the agency were discussing the possibility of implementing the mission jointly. Later it turned out that the parties are discussing only the mutual return of the equipment.

"Today, the ESA Council reviewed the ExoMars Rover mission, recognizing that the circumstances that led to the suspension of cooperation with Roscosmos ... continue to exist," the ESA head said on Twitter.

The head of Roskosmos, Dmitry Rogozin , said earlier that Russia would independently conduct a mission to Mars , although its preparation would drag on for several years and would have to be implemented without a rover.

The start of the second part of the Russian-European ExoMars mission, originally scheduled for 2018, was postponed several times and was postponed until 2022 until another deterioration in relations between the Russian Federation and the West. The Russian landing platform "Kazachok" was supposed to deliver the European rover Rosalind Franklin to the Red Planet. The launch was supposed to be a continuation of the ExoMars-2016 mission, which consisted of the European TGO orbital module with two Russian scientific instruments and the European Schiaparelli lander. In October 2016, TGO went into orbit around Mars and is still operating, while Schiaparelli crashed on landing.

https://ria.ru/20220712/roskosmos-1802070555.html
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 07/13/2022 12:36 am
The adventure of the @ESA_ExoMars #RosalindFranklin rover isn't over. Bold plans to reshape Europe's strategy on the way forward for a new journey #ToMarsAndBack are on the horizon..

https://twitter.com/ESA_ExoMars/status/1546900285662138369
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Rondaz on 07/13/2022 04:21 pm
Roskosmos received a notice from the ESA about the termination of work on ExoMars.

Roscosmos reported that they received a notification from the ESA about the termination of work on ExoMars.

07/13/2022 05:52 PM (updated: 07/13/2022 05:56 PM)

MOSCOW, July 13 - RIA Novosti. Roskosmos has received a notification from the European Space Agency (ESA) about the termination of work on the ExoMars mission, experts are studying options for returning equipment, the press service of the Russian state corporation told reporters.

"On July 12, 2022, the Director General of ESA, in accordance with the decision of the Council of the Member States of the European Space Agency (ESA), notified the state corporation Roscosmos of the termination by ESA of bilateral cooperation within the framework of the ExoMars-2022 mission due to the difficult geopolitical situation" , the message says.

It is noted that now the specialists of the state corporation and the ESA are working out options for the return of Russian equipment from the EU to the Russian Federation and the return of European equipment located in Russia to the ESA.

The head of the ESA, Josef Aschbacher, said that the European Space Agency would not resume cooperation with Roscosmos on the ExoMars mission. Roskosmos said that they had not yet received official notification from ESA. On Wednesday, the agency said it had sent such a notice to Roskosmos.

ESA suspended cooperation with Roskosmos on ExoMars in March due to events in Ukraine . Roskosmos CEO Dmitry Rogozin said earlier that Russia would independently conduct a mission to Mars , although its preparation would drag on for several years and would have to be implemented without a rover.

The start of the second part of the Russian-European ExoMars mission, originally scheduled for 2018, was postponed several times and was postponed until 2022 until another deterioration in relations between the Russian Federation and the West. The Russian landing platform "Kazachok" was supposed to deliver the European rover Rosalind Franklin to the Red Planet. The launch was supposed to be a continuation of the ExoMars-2016 mission, which consisted of the European TGO orbital module with two Russian scientific instruments and the European Schiaparelli lander. In October 2016, TGO went into orbit around Mars and is still operating, while Schiaparelli crashed on landing.

https://ria.ru/20220713/mars-1802258874.html
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 11/22/2022 10:56 am
https://twitter.com/BBCAmos/status/1595012908882464769
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/23/2022 12:10 pm
https://twitter.com/bbcamos/status/1595402742016638976

Quote
Rosalind Franklin. Fully funded. €360m. To start work on a landing system.  #CM23
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 11/23/2022 10:46 pm
https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/11/the-long-tangled-journey-of-a-european-rover-to-mars-takes-another-twist/

Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/24/2022 03:06 am
As posted up thread. Don't think ESA will make the 2028 Mars launch window doing the EDL in house.

Hopefully ESA might have the option to pivot to another Mars lander should one become available before 2028.

The Rosalind Franklin rover is based on early 2010's technologies. The clock is ticking on how relevant is it's science payloads operating on Mars will be. Likely more capable Mars rover concepts will appear before the 2028 launch date.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/24/2022 01:10 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63741201

Quote
UK-built Mars rover saved from museum retirement
Published
4 hours ago

By Jonathan Amos
BBC Science Correspondent
@BBCAmos
Jonathan Amos, Science correspondent

The UK-built Mars rover, "Rosalind Franklin", will not be put behind glass for people to stare at and ponder what might have been.

The completed robot will now go to the Red Planet thanks to a €360m (£310m) rescue package approved by member states of the European Space Agency.

Rosalind Franklin should have departed in September but was stranded on Earth when its Russian rocket ride was cancelled because of the Ukraine war.

The cash injection is a lifeline.

It will initiate the design of a system to land the rover on Mars - replacing the previous Russian mechanism.

More money will be needed at a later date to complete all the works, but Esa director general Josef Aschbacher said the project was definitely back on track.

[…]
Title: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Star One on 11/24/2022 03:13 pm
As posted up thread. Don't think ESA will make the 2028 Mars launch window doing the EDL in house.

Hopefully ESA might have the option to pivot to another Mars lander should one become available before 2028.

The Rosalind Franklin rover is based on early 2010's technologies. The clock is ticking on how relevant is it's science payloads operating on Mars will be. Likely more capable Mars rover concepts will appear before the 2028 launch date.

From the BBC article. Also a concept is not an actual rover. Plus I fail to see the relevance of your comment about 2010 technologies when it comes to space engineering after all there are plenty of devices proposed and in use with older technologies, Orion for a start.

Quote
What's more, the science that Rosalind Franklin will do is still seen as compelling.
The robot will look for signs of life on Mars, and will carry a drill to try to find it up to 2m below the planet's surface. If biology does still exist, this is where researchers would expect it to be found - underground.
"Rosalind Franklin is a huge project," said UK science minister George Freeman.
"It's a Mars rover built in the UK. We now need to finalise the propulsion and landing system, and there are major supply chain opportunities for British companies in this.
"Think about it - we will be at the forefront of that signal coming back from Mars about the origins of life. You can't get more exciting, more inspiring, and more cutting-edge than that."
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: matthewkantar on 11/24/2022 06:09 pm
Likely more capable Mars rover concepts will appear before the 2028 launch date.

Name them all please?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/25/2022 05:55 am
Likely more capable Mars rover concepts will appear before the 2028 launch date.

Name them all please?
Likely the Chinese will have a more capable follow-on Mars rover concept by 2028 if not already on it's way to Mars.

Maybe there will be a commercial Mars rover concept as well by 2028.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Star One on 11/25/2022 08:22 am
Likely more capable Mars rover concepts will appear before the 2028 launch date.

Name them all please?
Likely the Chinese will have a more capable follow-on Mars rover concept by 2028 if not already on it's way to Mars.

Maybe there will be a commercial Mars rover concept as well by 2028.
In other words you don’t have anything other than vague speculation.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 11/25/2022 01:25 pm
Likely more capable Mars rover concepts will appear before the 2028 launch date.

Name them all please?
Likely the Chinese will have a more capable follow-on Mars rover concept by 2028 if not already on it's way to Mars.

Maybe there will be a commercial Mars rover concept as well by 2028.
Ignoring the fact that there aren't any, please describe what you consider as "more capable".
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Timber Micka on 11/25/2022 01:26 pm
Likely more capable Mars rover concepts will appear before the 2028 launch date.

I disagree. As of 2022 ExoMars is the only Mars rover scheduled. Next US and Chinese Mars surface missions are MSL. Russian stand-alone mission with Kazachok is unlikely, but hardware exists.
So no competition for ExoMars rover.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 11/25/2022 03:20 pm
Likely more capable Mars rover concepts will appear before the 2028 launch date.

I disagree. As of 2022 ExoMars is the only Mars rover scheduled. Next US and Chinese Mars surface missions are MSL. Russian stand-alone mission with Kazachok is unlikely, but hardware exists.
So no competition for ExoMars rover.
More capable for what goal? Each mission is developed from a specific set of scientific goals - this mission's goals are to look for organic material that may have been preserved up to two meters below the surface in a location where the geochemistry suggests intense interaction with past water. The ExoMars rover and its instruments are admirably suited to that scientific goal.

Perhaps you think that other scientific goals should now take precedence that would require different mobility designs or that might be stationary. If so, you should discuss the science goals that you believe are higher priority.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: AstroWare on 11/25/2022 04:03 pm
Don't forget that by developing their own landing system, there is an opportunity to put their own instruments onboard. Idk what kind of landing system they are planning, but if it's anything like the Russian design and can survive on the surface for months (likely imo) it's like getting two Mars missions.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: AstroWare on 11/25/2022 04:07 pm
Another opportunity I see is that since NASA is providing the launcher, it should be possible to co-manifest their own missions on the same launch. Which would be a great chance to send a new orbiter with relay capabilities...
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 11/25/2022 04:28 pm
Another opportunity I see is that since NASA is providing the launcher, it should be possible to co-manifest their own missions on the same launch. Which would be a great chance to send a new orbiter with relay capabilities...

All it requires is money.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/26/2022 01:14 am
Likely more capable Mars rover concepts will appear before the 2028 launch date.

Name them all please?
Likely the Chinese will have a more capable follow-on Mars rover concept by 2028 if not already on it's way to Mars.

Maybe there will be a commercial Mars rover concept as well by 2028.
In other words you don’t have anything other than vague speculation.
The Chinese government and it's agencies operates on "multi-year plans", AIUI. So there should be a follow on Mars surface mission in the works, unless the Chinese abandons Mars as a destination.

A commercial Mars rover concept depends on the whims on several individuals that have access to the technologies with enough money to field a Mars surface rover mission.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: whitelancer64 on 11/26/2022 01:54 am
Likely more capable Mars rover concepts will appear before the 2028 launch date.

Name them all please?
Likely the Chinese will have a more capable follow-on Mars rover concept by 2028 if not already on it's way to Mars.

Maybe there will be a commercial Mars rover concept as well by 2028.
In other words you don’t have anything other than vague speculation.
The Chinese government and it's agencies operates on "multi-year plans", AIUI. So there should be a follow on Mars surface mission in the works, unless the Chinese abandons Mars as a destination.

A commercial Mars rover concept depends on the whims on several individuals that have access to the technologies with enough money to field a Mars surface rover mission.

In the current roadmap for Chinese missions to Mars (which was announced earlier this year), the next mission planned is a sample return, to launch in 2028 and return in 2031. Their plan is very simple, a lander collects samples near to it, and places them in a capsule that will launch to an orbiter that will return the capsule back to Earth, very similar to the lunar sample return of Chang'e 5.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 11/26/2022 02:05 am
A commercial Mars rover concept depends on the whims on several individuals that have access to the technologies with enough money to field a Mars surface rover mission.
Commercial is a vague term in this context.

There certainly isn't a traditional consumer or even an industrial supplier market to buy data from Mars (as there is, for example, computer memory chips or potato chips).

Perhaps commercial refers to some government issuing a contract for data to be returned that companies can bid to supply. This is being experimented with for the moon, but I'm not aware of any space agency suggesting this for Mars.

One could imagine a billionaire deciding to make a philanthropic donation to fund a scientific mission, as has been proposed for Venus. That, though, is not a commercial enterprise.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/26/2022 02:56 am
A commercial Mars rover concept depends on the whims on several individuals that have access to the technologies with enough money to field a Mars surface rover mission.
Commercial is a vague term in this context.

There certainly isn't a traditional consumer or even an industrial supplier market to buy data from Mars (as there is, for example, computer memory chips or potato chips).

Perhaps commercial refers to some government issuing a contract for data to be returned that companies can bid to supply. This is being experimented with for the moon, but I'm not aware of any space agency suggesting this for Mars.

One could imagine a billionaire deciding to make a philanthropic donation to fund a scientific mission, as has been proposed for Venus. That, though, is not a commercial enterprise.
Commercial as in no government funding. The data from the mission will have some value that the individual fielding the mission might be able to sell the data to other interested parties later. The scientific data is a commodity generated from this mission.

Interesting question. If someone other than a government entity fields a scientific Mars surface mission. Is that mission private? It matters, as a private mission the scientific data gather doesn't have to be publicly or widely available.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 11/26/2022 04:28 am
Commercial as in no government funding. The data from the mission will have some value that the individual fielding the mission might be able to sell the data to other interested parties later. The scientific data is a commodity generated from this mission.
So far as I know, the only parties paying for data from Mars currently are various government science agencies. They, as I know from experience, either want the data to be in hand already or have a strong expectation based on past performance that the data will be available.

Do you know of anyone else willing to commit to pay for data from Mars?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: AmigaClone on 11/26/2022 05:52 am
Commercial as in no government funding. The data from the mission will have some value that the individual fielding the mission might be able to sell the data to other interested parties later. The scientific data is a commodity generated from this mission.
So far as I know, the only parties paying for data from Mars currently are various government science agencies. They, as I know from experience, either want the data to be in hand already or have a strong expectation based on past performance that the data will be available.

Do you know of anyone else willing to commit to pay for data from Mars?

Elon Musk / SpaceX possibly?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 11/26/2022 06:08 am
Commercial as in no government funding. The data from the mission will have some value that the individual fielding the mission might be able to sell the data to other interested parties later. The scientific data is a commodity generated from this mission.
So far as I know, the only parties paying for data from Mars currently are various government science agencies. They, as I know from experience, either want the data to be in hand already or have a strong expectation based on past performance that the data will be available.

Do you know of anyone else willing to commit to pay for data from Mars?

Elon Musk / SpaceX possibly?
That would be a philanthropic contribution. There's no commercial market demonstrated with buyers and re-buyers. Many 19th century wealthy business men (all men at the time, unfortunately) supported philanthropic scientific endeavors; however, they were separate from commercial endeavors (e.g., Carnegie Science Institute vs what became US Steel).

Space-X sells launches to buyers who are either governments with management or scientific mandates to fund space missions or to commercial firms who will sell services to other buyers. Who would Space-X resell data from Mars to other than a government, who could contract the mission directly, or government funded scientists?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: jbenton on 11/27/2022 10:55 pm
After the recent report finding that JPL is over-booked and would have to delay some missions, I was wondering what the US could meaningfully contribute to help this mission fly in 2028. The article posted the other day answers that question:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/11/the-long-tangled-journey-of-a-european-rover-to-mars-takes-another-twist/
From that article:
Quote
NASA, he said, is expected to contribute a rocket for the mission, an engine for the descent module with adjustable thrust, and radioactive heating units. This exchange will be done via barter.
("he" being, ESA Director General Josef Aschbacher)
The descent module engines in particular are interesting, as the Schiaparelli lander used pulse-fired engines.
I was looking back to older posts in this thread, and found this article:

An article in Scientific American about whether or not ExoMars has a future:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-nasa-save-europes-beleaguered-mars-rover/
It provides some more context for that assessment:
Quote
ESA could potentially repurpose the parts it contributed to the Kazachok lander, yet the Russian-built components—the landing legs, heat shield, descent engines, and more—would have to be developed from scratch. The engines pose a particular problem because no European manufacturers offer any that are capable of landing on Mars. Similarly, ESA lacks the plutonium required for a radioisotope heating unit to keep the rover warm—something the U.S. (or Russia) could provide. “So we are asking NASA if they could contribute those,” Vago says. “These are the talks we’re having right now.”
I would like to add that, last I heard, Europe is working on its own radioisotope program for thermal electric generators and heating units using an isotope of Americium instead of Pu-238, but I suspect that it won't be able to produce enough RHUs by 2028. 

Given what Europe built for Schiaparelli and Kazachok, it seems to me that Europe has all the experience they need to pull off this mission by 2028 - Schiaparelli only crashed because its parachutes deployed too early, and it seems that they've since fixed that problem. All they need is for NASA to provide the retrorockets and RHUs; if this article is anything to go by...

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/science/european-space-agency-expects-nasa-backing-suspended-mars-mission-2022-06-22/
... then it looks like those will (probably) be provided:
Quote
"Administrator Bill Nelson has given us a clear message: NASA wants to help Europe in this situation," ESA Director General Josef Aschbacher told reporters on Wednesday at a news conference at the ILA Berlin Air Show trade fair.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 11/28/2022 12:07 am
I would like to add that, last I heard, Europe is working on its own radioisotope program for thermal electric generators and heating units using an isotope of Americium instead of Pu-238, but I suspect that it won't be able to produce enough RHUs by 2028. 

It also probably isn't really necessary. The US knows how to produce and handle RHUs. They are a known technology. Having the US provide these takes any of that risk off the table.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: sdsds on 11/28/2022 12:30 am
I would like to add that, last I heard, Europe is working on its own radioisotope program for thermal electric generators and heating units using an isotope of Americium instead of Pu-238, but I suspect that it won't be able to produce enough RHUs by 2028. 

It also probably isn't really necessary. The US knows how to produce and handle RHUs. They are a known technology. Having the US provide these takes any of that risk off the table.

And is Pu-238 production in the United States once again stable, with a plentiful supply available to meet both domestic needs and a European mission?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/28/2022 12:59 am
I would like to add that, last I heard, Europe is working on its own radioisotope program for thermal electric generators and heating units using an isotope of Americium instead of Pu-238, but I suspect that it won't be able to produce enough RHUs by 2028. 

It also probably isn't really necessary. The US knows how to produce and handle RHUs. They are a known technology. Having the US provide these takes any of that risk off the table.
Yes however the EU, EUSPA and other EU agencies are applying increasing pressure on ESA and member States and partners to establish greater independence to get out of the international all eggs in one basket that is not ours scheme they have used before
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 11/28/2022 01:37 am
And is Pu-238 production in the United States once again stable, with a plentiful supply available to meet both domestic needs and a European mission?

These are RHUs., not RTGs. Not a lot of material.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: su27k on 11/30/2022 01:41 am
ESA’s ExoMars plans depend on NASA contributions (https://spacenews.com/esas-exomars-plans-depend-on-nasa-contributions/)

Quote from: SpaceNews
An industry source, speaking on background, said the launch will be the most expensive contribution, with the overall NASA contribution likely on the order of a couple hundred million dollars. NASA is expected, in turn, to seek opportunities for U.S. scientists to participate on ExoMars in exchange for that contribution.

<snip>

Aschbacher said at the briefing that those planned NASA contributions were pending an agreement yet to be finalized between the agencies. “Their contribution still needs to be confirmed because they waited for our decision today,” he said.

NASA has not publicly commented on its plans for ExoMars since the ministerial meeting, and an agency spokesperson did not respond to questions Nov. 23 about NASA’s plans for the mission.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Don2 on 11/30/2022 07:17 pm
The RHUs should provide a substantial energy upgrade. They provide heat and will allow electricity to be conserved for other uses. Their output is independent of daylight and dust storms. About 25% of the total energy used by 'solar powered' Spirit and Opportunity came from their RHUs.

Is the science still relevant? There are interesting similarities between Exomars and the Mars Life Explorer (MLE) mission endorsed by the last Decadal Survey. Both have a capability to drill to a depths of 2m to collect material for analysis in a mass spectrometer. MLE  is focused on mid-latitude ice deposits. Perhaps Exomars could do some of the MLE science?

Hopefully the new landing system will be capable of a much more accurate landing. This will be a major upgrade to the science capability because the rover can be targeted at the most interesting sites.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 11/30/2022 09:45 pm
The RHUs should provide a substantial energy upgrade. They provide heat and will allow electricity to be conserved for other uses. Their output is independent of daylight and dust storms. About 25% of the total energy used by 'solar powered' Spirit and Opportunity came from their RHUs.

Is the science still relevant? There are interesting similarities between Exomars and the Mars Life Explorer (MLE) mission endorsed by the last Decadal Survey. Both have a capability to drill to a depths of 2m to collect material for analysis in a mass spectrometer. MLE  is focused on mid-latitude ice deposits. Perhaps Exomars could do some of the MLE science?

Hopefully the new landing system will be capable of a much more accurate landing. This will be a major upgrade to the science capability because the rover can be targeted at the most interesting sites.
The RHUs provide only heat, I believe. There are no thermocouples to convert heat to electrical power.

Yes, the science is still relevant. We could duplicate Curiosity and land it at many other places and do highly relevant science. So ExoMars goes to a very different ancient, apparently water rich environment, and it will be capable of taking samples from well below the surface.

Some of the methods for improving accuracy might be easily adopted such as more tightly controlling the timing of the parachute release. Many of the others are highly complex and require armies of engineers and incredible amounts of testing. I doubt that ESA has the resources to implement many of them. Just getting your first major rover to land anywhere on Mars with any accuracy the first time is a huge accomplishment.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: JayWee on 11/30/2022 10:12 pm
The RHUs should provide a substantial energy upgrade.
The RHUs provide only heat, I believe. There are no thermocouples to convert heat to electrical power.
If you don't have the RHUs, you'd need electrical heaters to keep the rover warm.
Each of MER 8 RHU generates 1W of heat, that's 192Wh/day. At the beginning, the solar panels produced 900Wh/sol and by the end about 410Wh/sol. So by the end the RHUs thus provided ~30% of the total energy budget. Pretty substantial.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: vjkane on 12/01/2022 04:31 am
The RHUs should provide a substantial energy upgrade.
The RHUs provide only heat, I believe. There are no thermocouples to convert heat to electrical power.
If you don't have the RHUs, you'd need electrical heaters to keep the rover warm.
Each of MER 8 RHU generates 1W of heat, that's 192Wh/day. At the beginning, the solar panels produced 900Wh/sol and by the end about 410Wh/sol. So by the end the RHUs thus provided ~30% of the total energy budget. Pretty substantial.
I read once that around half of Juno's power goes to heaters. If you have an RTG, you have not just the electrical power but - because the RTG waste heat can be used to keep the spacecraft warm - also the power savings from not needing those heaters.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: edzieba on 12/01/2022 10:11 am
ExoMars was baselined with (Russian supplied) RHGs for heating, allowing the solar arrays to be sized for non-heating power requirements. Switching to US-supplied RHGs will not be an expansion in available power budget.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/13/2023 03:06 pm
https://youtu.be/1RQk0WWSdvk
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/13/2023 04:47 pm
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1635336704117841922

Quote
The FY24 proposal includes $30M for NASA's contribution to ESA's ExoMars rover mission. Outyear contributions to be determined.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/27/2023 10:10 am
Hardware still sitting in our cleanrooms in Turin is getting readied to be shipped back to Russia (most likely to an ignominous mothballing after being so close to launch, unfortunately), with Russian specialists already in Italy through a special agreement sidestepping generalized bans in collaborative space endeavors between ESA and Roscosmos:
https://twitter.com/katlinegrey/status/1639578122830991360 (https://twitter.com/katlinegrey/status/1639578122830991360)
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/27/2023 05:00 pm
Hardware still sitting in our cleanrooms in Turin is getting readied to be shipped back to Russia (most likely to an ignominous mothballing after being so close to launch, unfortunately), with Russian specialists already in Italy through a special agreement sidestepping generalized bans in collaborative space endeavors between ESA and Roscosmos:
https://twitter.com/katlinegrey/status/1639578122830991360 (https://twitter.com/katlinegrey/status/1639578122830991360)
In the agreement, what is ESA getting?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: eeergo on 03/28/2023 06:14 am
Hardware still sitting in our cleanrooms in Turin is getting readied to be shipped back to Russia (most likely to an ignominous mothballing after being so close to launch, unfortunately), with Russian specialists already in Italy through a special agreement sidestepping generalized bans in collaborative space endeavors between ESA and Roscosmos:
https://twitter.com/katlinegrey/status/1639578122830991360 (https://twitter.com/katlinegrey/status/1639578122830991360)
In the agreement, what is ESA getting?

Good question.

Although I assume it's in everyone's best interests to return the stuck Russian hardware to Russia: clean room space liberated for other projects (another clean room is actually being built on this very site because more floorspace is urgently needed), ending clean room storage that most likely nobody is paying for, getting rid of potential liability concerns if either by accident or wear and tear some of the hardware gets damaged...

Ending cooperation in space and generally science projects was one of the most controversial and unfortunate, even if understandable (while I don't personally agree with the measure), collateral damages of the current folly. Keeping innocent hardware as ransom is only desirable for Rogozin-like characters.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Lampyridae on 03/28/2023 11:40 am
Commercial as in no government funding. The data from the mission will have some value that the individual fielding the mission might be able to sell the data to other interested parties later. The scientific data is a commodity generated from this mission.
So far as I know, the only parties paying for data from Mars currently are various government science agencies. They, as I know from experience, either want the data to be in hand already or have a strong expectation based on past performance that the data will be available.

Do you know of anyone else willing to commit to pay for data from Mars?

Elon Musk / SpaceX possibly?
That would be a philanthropic contribution. There's no commercial market demonstrated with buyers and re-buyers. Many 19th century wealthy business men (all men at the time, unfortunately) supported philanthropic scientific endeavors; however, they were separate from commercial endeavors (e.g., Carnegie Science Institute vs what became US Steel).

Space-X sells launches to buyers who are either governments with management or scientific mandates to fund space missions or to commercial firms who will sell services to other buyers. Who would Space-X resell data from Mars to other than a government, who could contract the mission directly, or government funded scientists?

There were many wealthy women throughout the industrial revolution who both produced and funded research, it's just that modern history tends to focus on women who actually produced the research themselves (thus making it hard to find out which women actually bankrolled research, or who influenced male family members / friends to do so).
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/28/2023 03:34 pm
Commercial as in no government funding. The data from the mission will have some value that the individual fielding the mission might be able to sell the data to other interested parties later. The scientific data is a commodity generated from this mission.
So far as I know, the only parties paying for data from Mars currently are various government science agencies. They, as I know from experience, either want the data to be in hand already or have a strong expectation based on past performance that the data will be available.

Do you know of anyone else willing to commit to pay for data from Mars?

Elon Musk / SpaceX possibly?
That would be a philanthropic contribution. There's no commercial market demonstrated with buyers and re-buyers. Many 19th century wealthy business men (all men at the time, unfortunately) supported philanthropic scientific endeavors; however, they were separate from commercial endeavors (e.g., Carnegie Science Institute vs what became US Steel).

Space-X sells launches to buyers who are either governments with management or scientific mandates to fund space missions or to commercial firms who will sell services to other buyers. Who would Space-X resell data from Mars to other than a government, who could contract the mission directly, or government funded scientists?

There were many wealthy women throughout the industrial revolution who both produced and funded research, it's just that modern history tends to focus on women who actually produced the research themselves (thus making it hard to find out which women actually bankrolled research, or who influenced male family members / friends to do so).
Indeed. This is further clouded by the fact that much is done in the husband's name. Virtually ALL the philanthropy Charles Koch's name is attached to is done by his wife for example. So in many more cases, a women gave the money, but it was "her husband's money".
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/28/2023 03:44 pm
Didn’t know that about Charles Koch’s wife.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/28/2023 05:56 pm
edit: Removing because I lack reading comprehension
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Eric Hedman on 03/28/2023 08:22 pm
Didn’t know that about Charles Koch’s wife.
The same is true for David Koch's widow.  She runs the David H. Koch foundation which has been a primary funder the PBS show NOVA (one of my favorite shows) produced by WGBH in Boston.  He was an MIT grad.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Eric Hedman on 03/28/2023 10:19 pm
Didn’t know that about Charles Koch’s wife.
Actually I have read about it. Why would I make something up like that? Also, why does it matter? The intent wasn't to impune the Kochs (not that they need ANY help with that). It was just giving an example.
I don't understand why you think Robotbeat is implying that you made anything up about Charles Koch's wife from his post.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: deadman1204 on 03/29/2023 03:03 pm
Didn’t know that about Charles Koch’s wife.
Actually I have read about it. Why would I make something up like that? Also, why does it matter? The intent wasn't to impune the Kochs (not that they need ANY help with that). It was just giving an example.
I don't understand why you think Robotbeat is implying that you made anything up about Charles Koch's wife from his post.
Oh my. I TOTALLY miss-read one word of Robotbeat's post. I thought he said "Don't" instead of "Didn't". My apologies Robotbeat.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/29/2023 03:07 pm
Didn’t know that about Charles Koch’s wife.
Actually I have read about it. Why would I make something up like that? Also, why does it matter? The intent wasn't to impune the Kochs (not that they need ANY help with that). It was just giving an example.
I don't understand why you think Robotbeat is implying that you made anything up about Charles Koch's wife from his post.
Oh my. I TOTALLY miss-read one word of Robotbeat's post. I thought he said "Don't" instead of "Didn't". My apologies Robotbeat.
It’s all good. 🥰
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 03/31/2023 01:14 pm
What are the details on the landing platform? Does it have power and communications? Is it at all feasible that the Russians could repurpose this, put some equivalent mass on the platform, and launch it on their own?

I know that spacecraft like this tend to be very tightly coupled, so that even small changes have a ripple effect that spreads throughout all the hardware, but the lander is the tough part and I wonder if they could salvage any of this.

Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: jstrotha0975 on 03/31/2023 02:31 pm
What are the details on the landing platform? Does it have power and communications? Is it at all feasible that the Russians could repurpose this, put some equivalent mass on the platform, and launch it on their own?

I know that spacecraft like this tend to be very tightly coupled, so that even small changes have a ripple effect that spreads throughout all the hardware, but the lander is the tough part and I wonder if they could salvage any of this.

Why not team with China to build a rover for it?
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: MattMason on 03/31/2023 02:45 pm
What are the details on the landing platform? Does it have power and communications? Is it at all feasible that the Russians could repurpose this, put some equivalent mass on the platform, and launch it on their own?

I know that spacecraft like this tend to be very tightly coupled, so that even small changes have a ripple effect that spreads throughout all the hardware, but the lander is the tough part and I wonder if they could salvage any of this.

Why not team with China to build a rover for it?

"The Wolf Amendment is a law passed by the United States Congress in 2011, named after then–United States Representative Frank Wolf, that prohibits the United States National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) from using government funds to engage in direct, bilateral cooperation with the Chinese government and China-affiliated organizations from its activities without explicit authorization from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the U.S. Congress."

This is why China is not allowed to participate in any of the US reindeer games. The ITAR laws follow suit, as some believe our technology are also adaptable for munitions or espionage.

It's too bad that the US hasn't adapted a greater, if limited, opportunity for joint CNSA work, as we did with the old USSR. That did cool down the Cold War notably on that front.

China has left the door open for us, literally, in the use of international standards such as the International Docking System Standard, from which the US Commercial Crew docking system, the NASA Docking System, is based. Their spacecraft and stations use this standard.

ESA is not part of this law, but they tend not to ruffle US interests about this or we pull support. ESA does have some CNSA joint interests that are separate from the US.

China and Russia have made recent announcements on a joint "international" lunar base. But there's no word on any other joint operations behind Earth.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: MattMason on 03/31/2023 02:50 pm
What are the details on the landing platform? Does it have power and communications? Is it at all feasible that the Russians could repurpose this, put some equivalent mass on the platform, and launch it on their own?

I know that spacecraft like this tend to be very tightly coupled, so that even small changes have a ripple effect that spreads throughout all the hardware, but the lander is the tough part and I wonder if they could salvage any of this.

I recall that the failed Schipparelli EDM lander was to test landing technology needed for Kazachok here.

Kazachok itself included science instruments as a static lander. It could be flown on its own (the Proton was to be the flight vehicle), and the Russians do know a thing or two about rovers.

But Russian geopolitics might limit Kazachok's capacity to fly and be supported right now. Not entirely sure.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 03/31/2023 03:06 pm
and the Russians do know a thing or two about rovers.

I don't think they do. The last time they flew one was half a century ago, and they have not kept their planetary space program active since then.

I wrote about the decay in Russian planetary space knowledge and capability here:

https://thespacereview.com/article/4548/1

Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: jstrotha0975 on 03/31/2023 08:33 pm
What are the details on the landing platform? Does it have power and communications? Is it at all feasible that the Russians could repurpose this, put some equivalent mass on the platform, and launch it on their own?

I know that spacecraft like this tend to be very tightly coupled, so that even small changes have a ripple effect that spreads throughout all the hardware, but the lander is the tough part and I wonder if they could salvage any of this.

Why not team with China to build a rover for it?

"The Wolf Amendment is a law passed by the United States Congress in 2011, named after then–United States Representative Frank Wolf, that prohibits the United States National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) from using government funds to engage in direct, bilateral cooperation with the Chinese government and China-affiliated organizations from its activities without explicit authorization from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the U.S. Congress."

This is why China is not allowed to participate in any of the US reindeer games. The ITAR laws follow suit, as some believe our technology are also adaptable for munitions or espionage.

It's too bad that the US hasn't adapted a greater, if limited, opportunity for joint CNSA work, as we did with the old USSR. That did cool down the Cold War notably on that front.

China has left the door open for us, literally, in the use of international standards such as the International Docking System Standard, from which the US Commercial Crew docking system, the NASA Docking System, is based. Their spacecraft and stations use this standard.

ESA is not part of this law, but they tend not to ruffle US interests about this or we pull support. ESA does have some CNSA joint interests that are separate from the US.

China and Russia have made recent announcements on a joint "international" lunar base. But there's no word on any other joint operations behind Earth.

I meant Russia teaming up with china. I have to learn to be more specific here.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: redliox on 03/31/2023 09:02 pm
and the Russians do know a thing or two about rovers.

I don't think they do. The last time they flew one was half a century ago, and they have not kept their planetary space program active since then.

I wrote about the decay in Russian planetary space knowledge and capability here:

https://thespacereview.com/article/4548/1

I mourn the Russian space program, but it always felt like they were largely riding the corpse of the Soviet Union for better or worse.  The last hope I had was the Phobos-Grunt attempt, and sadly that was lost in an upper stage accident.  I'll be extremely surprised if anything flies successfully from Russia within the next 30 years, and I won't be surprised if the Soyuz program decays if the recent leaks are an indication the talent drain is getting critical for them.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: Blackstar on 03/31/2023 10:02 pm
I mourn the Russian space program, but it always felt like they were largely riding the corpse of the Soviet Union for better or worse.  The last hope I had was the Phobos-Grunt attempt, and sadly that was lost in an upper stage accident.

Phobos-Grunt was a very ambitious project. It was the kind of complex spacecraft that could only be successfully undertaken by a very experienced team, which they did not have. The fact that it died in Earth orbit demonstrated just how little skill they had at the time.

ExoMars was risky for ESA, but I suspect that ESA asserted a lot of oversight/insight into the Russian work on the mission.
Title: Re: ESA/NASA? - ExoMars 2028? (Rover + Surface Platform)
Post by: bolun on 11/24/2023 04:15 pm
Welsh technology to join search for life on Mars (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-67494876) (BBC News)

UK Space Agency funds work to replace Russian components on Mars rover (https://www.aber.ac.uk/en/news/archive/2023/11/title-267725-en.html) (Aberystwyth University)

Quote
The UK Space Agency will provide an additional £10.7 million to replace a Russian-made instrument on the Rosalind Franklin rover, so that it can launch to Mars in 2028.

The rover, which was built by Airbus in Stevenage as part of a European Space Agency programme, was due to launch in 2022 but the collaboration with Russia’s space agency (Roscosmos) was cancelled following the illegal invasion of Ukraine.

The new funding will allow a UK team to replace the Russian-built Infrared Spectrometer for ExoMars (ISEM) so that the mission can recover its full scientific potential.

Work on the new instrument, named Enfys (meaning ‘rainbow’ in Welsh), will be led by Aberystwyth University with support from UCL, STFC RAL Space and Qioptiq Ltd.

Enfys will identify targets on the surface of Mars for sampling and analysis, building on the scientific discoveries of the Mars rover mission.

Enfys and the mission’s camera system PanCam, which is led by the Mullard Space Science Laboratory (MSSL) at UCL, will work together to identify minerals that could harbour evidence for life to enable the rover to drill for samples to be analysed by other instruments on the rover.

The £10.7 million brings the total UK Space Agency investment in the Rosalind Franklin rover to £377 million.

Image credit: Aberystwyth University