Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 11  (Read 646771 times)

Offline Mark7777777

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Apparently DARPA has granted Dr. Mike McCulloch $1.5m to build a demo QI based propellant less drive for them.

https://twitter.com/PeterlooPete/status/1020597177029201920

Should be interesting.

I wonder what that might look like? E.g.

A) 15 people @100k for 1 year

B) 7 people for 2 years

C) 3 people for 4 years

I suppose it might be something like B) or C) with extra PhD students and unpaid interns.

Or maybe some of that budget is for cubesat? Perhaps DARPA has a place on their shuttle-like space vehicle I think they have.


Offline Bob Woods

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Apparently DARPA has granted Dr. Mike McCulloch $1.5m to build a demo QI based propellant less drive for them.

https://twitter.com/PeterlooPete/status/1020597177029201920

Should be interesting.

I wonder what that might look like? E.g.

A) 15 people @100k for 1 year

B) 7 people for 2 years

C) 3 people for 4 years

I suppose it might be something like B) or C) with extra PhD students and unpaid interns.

Or maybe some of that budget is for cubesat? Perhaps DARPA has a place on their shuttle-like space vehicle I think they have.
If it proves out, money will not be an object and the real space race will begin.

Offline PotomacNeuron

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Apparently DARPA has granted Dr. Mike McCulloch $1.5m to build a demo QI based propellant less drive for them.

https://twitter.com/PeterlooPete/status/1020597177029201920

Should be interesting.

I wonder what that might look like? E.g.

A) 15 people @100k for 1 year

B) 7 people for 2 years

C) 3 people for 4 years

I suppose it might be something like B) or C) with extra PhD students and unpaid interns.

Or maybe some of that budget is for cubesat? Perhaps DARPA has a place on their shuttle-like space vehicle I think they have.
If it proves out, money will not be an object and the real space race will begin.

From my own study, QI is very likely wrong and it will not prove out.
I am working on the ultimate mission human beings are made for.

Offline oyzw

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Apparently DARPA has granted Dr. Mike McCulloch $1.5m to build a demo QI based propellant less drive for them.

https://twitter.com/PeterlooPete/status/1020597177029201920

Should be interesting.
Is the Q thruster emdrive? Or is it a working medium microwave propeller?

Offline TheTraveller

Apparently DARPA has granted Dr. Mike McCulloch $1.5m to build a demo QI based propellant less drive for them.

https://twitter.com/PeterlooPete/status/1020597177029201920

Should be interesting.
Is the Q thruster emdrive? Or is it a working medium microwave propeller?

Hi Oyzw,

Neither. Something else. Based on Mike's Qi theory.

While Mike does have a thrust equation that works with some EmDrive data, his theory is not the SPR theory.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline TheTraveller

If the 1st 2 lines of Roger's claim are correct then DARPA knows P-P drives are real.

Interesting that DARPA are apparently funding Mike with more money than NASA is funding the MEGA drive. Just maybe DARPA has experience with the EmDrive and desires to see if Mike's Qi drive can do a better job.

Mike has claimed his Qi drive should be able to do heavy lift in a 1g gravity well.

Roger has also claimed heavy lift in a 1g gravity well but with very limited acceleration, ie 0.005g for Gen 2 due to Doppler shift and 0.01g for Gen 3 due to CofE.

« Last Edit: 07/24/2018 02:13 am by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline flux_capacitor

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Apparently DARPA has granted Dr. Mike McCulloch $1.5m to build a demo QI based propellant less drive for them.

https://twitter.com/PeterlooPete/status/1020597177029201920

Should be interesting.

I wonder what that might look like? E.g.

A) 15 people @100k for 1 year

B) 7 people for 2 years

C) 3 people for 4 years

I suppose it might be something like B) or C) with extra PhD students and unpaid interns.

Or maybe some of that budget is for cubesat? Perhaps DARPA has a place on their shuttle-like space vehicle I think they have.

It's C)
Back in April, McCulloch said on Twitter that the funding would be used to support him and a new postdoc, as well as Profs Tajmar and Perez-Diaz to try different experimental "horizon drives" over a period of 4 years.
https://twitter.com/memcculloch/status/981857778493992960
https://twitter.com/memcculloch/status/989596027496882176

As already said here by cvbn in June:
- Mike McCulloch and a post-doc at the University of Plymouth, UK, will develop the theory further
- Martin Tajmar at TU Dresden, Germany, will build and test Travis Shane Taylor's EmDrive based on lasers: http://www.jbis.org.uk/paper.php?p=2017.70.238
- José Luis Pérez-Díaz at the University of Alcalá, Spain, will test the "LEMdrive" based on a light-loop in a fiber optic whose working principle is explained at http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/lemdrive.html - The LEMdrive has actually been designed in 2016 and already tested in 2017 and showed anomalous thrust, but they won't talk about it before determining if the measured forces are artifacts, and a paper is published.

BTW anyone has the Taylor paper?
« Last Edit: 07/24/2018 10:48 am by flux_capacitor »

Offline Monomorphic

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Is the Q thruster emdrive? Or is it a working medium microwave propeller?

My understanding is it is a 5cm long frustum-shaped optical cavity designed to operate in the infrared band. It uses a gain medium like a typical laser to increase the energy in the cavity. So it definitely has more in common with the Emdrive than it does with say the mach effect thruster.
« Last Edit: 07/24/2018 02:05 pm by Monomorphic »

Offline TheTraveller

Hi Jamie,

Different dog, same leg action.

Biggest problem is supplying enough input energy to support high g acceleration.

Assume constant Ns of force generation. As the N/kWrf increases, the amount of input energy drops to generate a fix amount of Ns of force. As this input energy is converted into KE, there is less energy available to support acceleration. Thus high N/kWrf drives suffer with low acceleration due to low energy input.

Unless the Qi drives has a new energy source, other than the input, it too may suffer low acceleration.

There is a solution but that is another story.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline dustinthewind

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I think with some of the claims that the EM drive is changing the frequency of light by transference of its energy to some unseen medium (acceleration of light) could be tested.  Injection into the cavity could be chosen to be continuous and at a set frequency.  One can then use the frequency injected to compare that frequency that exists inside the cavity via a sensing antenna.  Lower Q allows some bandwidth to exist in the cavity so it might be there.  Shift the phase of the injected frequency and amplify/attenuate the wave so the sensed frequency in the cavity cancels with the injected frequency.  What remains would be what ever is left that changed in frequency. 
« Last Edit: 07/25/2018 12:00 am by dustinthewind »
Follow the science? What is science with out the truth.  If there is no truth in it it is not science.  Truth is found by open discussion and rehashing facts not those that moderate it to fit their agenda.  In the end the truth speaks for itself.  Beware the strong delusion and lies mentioned in 2ndThesalonians2:11.  The last stage of Babylon is transhumanism.  Clay mingled with iron (flesh mingled with machine).  MK ultra out of control.  Consider bill gates patent 202060606 (666), that hacks the humans to make their brains crunch C R Y P T O. Are humans hackable animals or are they protected like when Jesus cast out the legion?

Offline TheTraveller

I think with some of the claims that the EM drive is changing the frequency of light by transference of its energy to some unseen medium (acceleration of light) could be tested.  Injection into the cavity could be chosen to be continuous and at a set frequency.  One can then use the frequency injected to compare that frequency that exists inside the cavity via a sensing antenna.  Lower Q allows some bandwidth to exist in the cavity so it might be there.  Shift the phase of the injected frequency and amplify/attenuate the wave so the sensed frequency in the cavity cancels with the injected frequency.  What remains would be what ever is left that changed in frequency.

Hi,

As an EmDrive accelerates, the gained KE is from the internal photons energy loss, which causes the emitted photons to have a longer wavelength than on impact. Nothing new here. Happens with solar sails.

Using short pulse Rf injection (limited to 5x cavity TC) and allowing the cavity to accelerate while the cavity energy rings down, enables this increasing wavelength effect to be measured.

During acceleration, other effects occur such as decreased Q due to some cavity energy conversion into KE and impedance changes due to increased photon wavelength moving away from ideal resonant freq.
« Last Edit: 07/25/2018 12:16 am by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline dustinthewind

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I think with some of the claims that the EM drive is changing the frequency of light by transference of its energy to some unseen medium (acceleration of light) could be tested.  Injection into the cavity could be chosen to be continuous and at a set frequency.  One can then use the frequency injected to compare that frequency that exists inside the cavity via a sensing antenna.  Lower Q allows some bandwidth to exist in the cavity so it might be there.  Shift the phase of the injected frequency and amplify/attenuate the wave so the sensed frequency in the cavity cancels with the injected frequency.  What remains would be what ever is left that changed in frequency.

Hi,
 
As an EmDrive accelerates, the gained KE is from the internal photons energy loss, which causes the emitted photons to have a longer wavelength than on impact. Nothing new here. Happens with solar sails.

Using short pulse Rf injection (limited to 5x cavity TC) and allowing the cavity to accelerate while the cavity energy rings down, enables this increasing wavelength effect to be measured.

During acceleration, other effects occur such as decreased Q due to some cavity energy conversion into KE and impedance changes due to increased photon wavelength moving away from ideal resonant freq.

Ok.  You talk as if you have taken measurements of this ring down?  Do you have any measurements of this change in frequency you could share?  Thanks.

Also I am assuming that your thinking that more reflections at the top lead to more momentum transfer than a single reflection below.  Even though multiple reflections at top, add less forward momentum per strike via the angle of reflection.  So multiple strikes and photon energy loss win out causing the back strike not to be able to finish momentum cancellation. 
« Last Edit: 07/25/2018 02:54 am by dustinthewind »
Follow the science? What is science with out the truth.  If there is no truth in it it is not science.  Truth is found by open discussion and rehashing facts not those that moderate it to fit their agenda.  In the end the truth speaks for itself.  Beware the strong delusion and lies mentioned in 2ndThesalonians2:11.  The last stage of Babylon is transhumanism.  Clay mingled with iron (flesh mingled with machine).  MK ultra out of control.  Consider bill gates patent 202060606 (666), that hacks the humans to make their brains crunch C R Y P T O. Are humans hackable animals or are they protected like when Jesus cast out the legion?

Offline TheTraveller

I think with some of the claims that the EM drive is changing the frequency of light by transference of its energy to some unseen medium (acceleration of light) could be tested.  Injection into the cavity could be chosen to be continuous and at a set frequency.  One can then use the frequency injected to compare that frequency that exists inside the cavity via a sensing antenna.  Lower Q allows some bandwidth to exist in the cavity so it might be there.  Shift the phase of the injected frequency and amplify/attenuate the wave so the sensed frequency in the cavity cancels with the injected frequency.  What remains would be what ever is left that changed in frequency.

Hi,
 
As an EmDrive accelerates, the gained KE is from the internal photons energy loss, which causes the emitted photons to have a longer wavelength than on impact. Nothing new here. Happens with solar sails.

Using short pulse Rf injection (limited to 5x cavity TC) and allowing the cavity to accelerate while the cavity energy rings down, enables this increasing wavelength effect to be measured.

During acceleration, other effects occur such as decreased Q due to some cavity energy conversion into KE and impedance changes due to increased photon wavelength moving away from ideal resonant freq.

Ok.  You talk as if you have taken measurements of this ring down?  Do you have any measurements of this change in frequency you could share?  Thanks.

Also I am assuming that your thinking that more reflections at the top lead to more momentum transfer than a single reflection below.  Even though multiple reflections at top, add less forward momentum per strike via the angle of reflection.  So multiple strikes and photon energy loss win out causing the back strike not to be able to finish momentum cancellation.

Hi,

Momentum transfer is highly dependent on the angle of incidence, which is also the angle of emission. So there is a double cosine loss function at work. As the angle of incidence varies with the diameter, this is why the rad pressure drops in a very non linear way as the diameter drops.

Yes it has been measured and the data will be shared when the KISS drive build and testing is completed.

Will also show that Q drops as the drive accelerates, which is caused by increased cavity energy loss per cycle due to accelerated mass KE gain.

EmDrive cavities have 3 Qs:

Qu = only eddy current losses per cycle
Ql = as above plus coupler losses per cycle
Qe = as above plus cavity energy loss to accelerated mass KE gain per cycle

The above also apply to accelerator cavities, which experience cavity energy loss as the particles accelerated by the cavities axial E field gradient, gain KE from the stored cavity energy and the Q drops.

It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline meberbs

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Momentum transfer is highly dependent on the angle of incidence, which is also the angle of emission. So there is a double cosine loss function at work. As the angle of incidence varies with the diameter, this is why the rad pressure drops in a very non linear way as the diameter drops.
In this (overly simplistic) view where the photons are particles rather than distributed waves, you have made a couple mistakes.
-The cosine should not be squared, the incident equals reflected angle is handled by the factor of 2 in your equation.
-You are talking about radiation pressure reducing as the diameter decreases, but you ignore the fact that if that is what happened, the drive would accelerate in the wrong direction
-You are ignoring that since the pressure on the sidewalls includes a component in the axial direction, this adds additional force that exactly makes up the difference between the force on the small and large ends.

Now stop demonstrating that you have trouble with entry level physics, stop claiming that NASA or other agency agree with Shawyer on anything (no one competent agrees with his theory, because it is obviously inconsistent) That chart from Shawyer is meaningless, it is just one more set of claims from him that is almost certainly not representative of reality in any way, shape, or form.

And seriously stop with claims like "it has been measured and will be shared" You have not given a shred of evidence that you have ever built anything. Either share the data, or stop with the false promises.

Offline TheTraveller

Momentum transfer is highly dependent on the angle of incidence, which is also the angle of emission. So there is a double cosine loss function at work. As the angle of incidence varies with the diameter, this is why the rad pressure drops in a very non linear way as the diameter drops.
In this (overly simplistic) view where the photons are particles rather than distributed waves, you have made a couple mistakes.
-The cosine should not be squared, the incident equals reflected angle is handled by the factor of 2 in your equation.
-You are talking about radiation pressure reducing as the diameter decreases, but you ignore the fact that if that is what happened, the drive would accelerate in the wrong direction
-You are ignoring that since the pressure on the sidewalls includes a component in the axial direction, this adds additional force that exactly makes up the difference between the force on the small and large ends.

Now stop demonstrating that you have trouble with entry level physics, stop claiming that NASA or other agency agree with Shawyer on anything (no one competent agrees with his theory, because it is obviously inconsistent) That chart from Shawyer is meaningless, it is just one more set of claims from him that is almost certainly not representative of reality in any way, shape, or form.

And seriously stop with claims like "it has been measured and will be shared" You have not given a shred of evidence that you have ever built anything. Either share the data, or stop with the false promises.

The equation is correct:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure see attached.

Note that Roger has explained how the rad pressure at the end plates is different as in slides 8 & 9. BTW do you have any issues with those 2 attached slides?

I did not make any claims about Roger's recent presentation. What I did was share what I read from his slides. Maybe you should email Roger and tell him to stop making such claims? Or maybe email the USAF and tell them that Roger is making false claims about their Flight Certification of the SPR Flight Thruster and false claims that they agree with SPR on the 3G EmDrive theory?
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline meberbs

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The equation is correct:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure see attached.
That equation is for a fixed area plate in fixed irradiance (energy per area) radiation field, where the total amount of energy that hits the plate per area is a function of the projected area of the plate into the field. The result is the pressure on the plate (force per physical area of the plate). The equation you gave is a function of total energy hitting the surface, not energy per area. As a result the second factor of cos is already built in to the energy. This makes sense, because inside the cavity, all of the energy will be reflected off something, you don't need to reduce it by the extra factor, since non of the energy can miss the walls entirely.

Thank you for demonstrating yet again that you don't apply any critical thinking at all on physical principles, and just copy paste things that are only sometimes relevant. Now, please stop doing that, and either start thinking, or stop making claims about things you don't understand.

Note that Roger has explained how the rad pressure at the end plates is different as in slides 8 & 9. BTW do you have any issues with those 2 attached slides?
No, he nothing in those slides states anything about the radiation pressure is a frustum shaped cavity. As stated many times, in a frustum shaped cavity, the radiation pressure on the sidewalls averages out to a net force in the direction of the small end, and this is exactly equal to the difference between the forces on the small and large end.

As to the content of the slides themselves, there is nothing directly wrong with the math, though it would be more representative of physical reality if he also for the waveguide showed that the reason for the reduction in group velocity is related to the steepness of the path as the photons bounce between the walls of the waveguide, in mathematical terms, this means the v_g/c term coud just be replaced by a cosine(theta). Similarly, in the second slide, he makes it look like there is only force on 2 walls of the cavity, instead of all of them. Normally I'd just call that sloppy diagramming, but with Shawyer it is fundamental to why all of his claims are wrong.

I did not make any claims about Roger's recent presentation. What I did was share what I read from his slides. Maybe you should email Roger and tell him to stop making such claims? Or maybe email the USAF and tell them that Roger is making false claims about their Flight Certification of the SPR Flight Thruster and false claims that they agree with SPR on the 3G EmDrive theory?
You supposedly have a good relationship with Shawyer, how about youask him to stop with his false and misleading claims, because it is embarrassing to any legitimate people trying to put this issue to bed?

USAF is not an organization you could e-mail and get some logical response out of on this, mostly you would just get a "what are you talking about?" response if anything, and honestly if some guy who is obviously a crackpot is making misleading claims in another country they aren't going to do anything about it. Kind of outside their jurisdiction. You can stop repeating the nonsense though. You have posted that slide at least twice now, and it didn't get any more meaningful the second time.

Offline OnlyMe

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....

Yes it has been measured and the data will be shared when the KISS drive build and testing is completed. ...

If you already have the data why wait for the KISS drive build, to share it?

The KISS drive itself can not prove where any rotary force comes from. Once the drive used for a rotary rig has been tested on a rig like Monomorphic’s, and proven to produce some force/acceleration, it could be used to demonstrate constant force/acceleration, with a rotary rig.


....

Note that Roger has explained how the rad pressure at the end plates is different as in slides 8 & 9. BTW do you have any issues with those 2 attached slides?

... Or maybe email the USAF and tell them that Roger is making false claims about their Flight Certification of the SPR Flight Thruster and false claims that they agree with SPR on the 3G EmDrive theory?

It has been my understanding that Roger’s background was in the area of microwave engineering, not theoretical physics. There have been past claims that his “explanation” of how his EmDrive works is supported by authorities on both sides of the pond, but those authorities remain unnamed, no?

Tell me why would the USAF care or comment on Roger’s claims? ... And if the USAF had any evidence supporting Roger’s 3G claims, it would seem obvious that DARPA would have access to the data and it would affect just where they put their funding...

How does...

Different dog, same leg action.
...

Follow from...

Apparently DARPA has granted Dr. Mike McCulloch $1.5m to build a demo QI based propellant less drive for them.

https://twitter.com/PeterlooPete/status/1020597177029201920

Should be interesting.
Is the Q thruster emdrive? Or is it a working medium microwave propeller?

Hi Oyzw,

Neither. Something else. Based on Mike's Qi theory.

While Mike does have a thrust equation that works with some EmDrive data, his theory is not the SPR theory.

Only if we are really talking about bouncing photons does a microwave wavelength frustum have anything in common with a 5cm frustum operating in the infrared range. Microwaves interact with the copper walls of a frustum in a far different manner than EM radiation in the infrared band. For one the microwave EM field inside a frustum has both electric and magnetic properties, inducing eddy currents and corresponding magnetic fields in the walls... and ultimately heat. Infrared radiation would heat up the copper, yes..., but would there be electric and magnetic components associated with the field inside the frustum and the walls?

Nowhere near a, “Different dog, same leg action.” ...

If the USAF has a working EmDrive, even still in development, they are not going to talk about it. And there is no advantage in responding to claims made by anyone. As for DARPA, they have a reputation for throwing money at all sorts of, even fringe projects on the off chance that sooner or later something may prove useful.

All this to arrive at my point, if you have data share it. Until you do talk is just that talk.

Offline Josave

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The NXP ecoystem for solid state RF generation is available for developpers:

https://www.nxp.com/products/rf/rf-power/rf-ism-and-broadcast/rf-energy-systems/rf-energy-lab-box:RFEL24-500

In this video they present and test the full solution, the control capabilities are amazing, precise phase and frequency sweep, SWR monitoring, and maybe more can be done with the Matlab dll. With two modules included in the RFEL24-500, a complex pattern of resonances can be explored in the frustum...

https://www.nxp.com/video/:RF_LAB_BOX
« Last Edit: 07/25/2018 11:11 pm by Josave »

Offline PotomacNeuron

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The equation is correct:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure see attached.
That equation is for a fixed area plate in fixed irradiance (energy per area) radiation field, where the total amount of energy that hits the plate per area is a function of the projected area of the plate into the field. The result is the pressure on the plate (force per physical area of the plate). The equation you gave is a function of total energy hitting the surface, not energy per area. As a result the second factor of cos is already built in to the energy. This makes sense, because inside the cavity, all of the energy will be reflected off something, you don't need to reduce it by the extra factor, since non of the energy can miss the walls entirely.
...

Maybe somebody on the forum can recall that a few years ago a German student wrote a simulation of EMDrive based on bouncing photons with a probability of being absorbed. He obtained thrust and posted the document and code here. I reviewed his code and found probably exactly the same problem (square or not of the cos(theta)). After he corrected the problem, the thrust was reduced to input momentum. I tried but I can not find his post nor my review.
I am working on the ultimate mission human beings are made for.

Offline meberbs

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The equation is correct:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure see attached.
That equation is for a fixed area plate in fixed irradiance (energy per area) radiation field, where the total amount of energy that hits the plate per area is a function of the projected area of the plate into the field. The result is the pressure on the plate (force per physical area of the plate). The equation you gave is a function of total energy hitting the surface, not energy per area. As a result the second factor of cos is already built in to the energy. This makes sense, because inside the cavity, all of the energy will be reflected off something, you don't need to reduce it by the extra factor, since non of the energy can miss the walls entirely.
...

Maybe somebody on the forum can recall that a few years ago a German student wrote a simulation of EMDrive based on bouncing photons with a probability of being absorbed. He obtained thrust and posted the document and code here. I reviewed his code and found probably exactly the same problem (square or not of the cos(theta)). After he corrected the problem, the thrust was reduced to input momentum. I tried but I can not find his post nor my review.
Found it, https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39772.msg1536759#msg1536759

Just as you remembered, the problem was an inappropriate cos^2 term.

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