Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2  (Read 2965307 times)

Offline CJ

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5000 on: 07/04/2015 04:36 am »
Sorry for following up my own post, but I thought y'all might like to see close up pictures of the ASDS in Long Beach.

It's certainly showing signs that the avian source quoted by Kabloona and others up-thread have been quite active. 

I don't know whether it's okay to post the pics here as attachments, the pics aren't mine, and may belong to the person who posted them, so I'll just provide a link to the imgur page. My sincere thanks to the photographer!


 temp bana/J4kv1/noscript

Edit: Huh? When I try to post the link, it gets mangled to the above. I must have goofed somehow. Or is imgur a site we're not supposed to link to here? Is so, my apologies, but I thought I'd seen that site linked here before.
Okay.... a workaround; it's linked at the top of this redit thread.
http://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/3c2jnf/just_read_the_instructions_is_now_docked_in_the/

I'm adding another version of the direct link in case the noscript is what messed it up.

temp bana/J4kv1

Edit 2. Ugh, something is strange. the imgur site name gets changed to temp bana? temporary banana? I'm not sure whether it's here or on my system. If the latter, I've got a virus, ugh....
« Last Edit: 07/04/2015 04:45 am by CJ »

Offline Req

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5001 on: 07/04/2015 05:16 am »
Wow, look at all of those white score/burn/whatever marks on the deck paint!

Edited to try to add the link, it's definitely NSF's SEO thingy messing it up, not your system CJ.
« Last Edit: 07/04/2015 05:29 am by Req »

Offline CJ

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5002 on: 07/04/2015 05:28 am »
Wow, look at all of those white score marks in the paint!

Edited to try to add the link, it's definitely NSF's SEO thingy messing it up, not your system CJ.

Thanks Req! I've been running scans since I posted, so your confirmation just saved me several hours of frustrating work. The last time I encountered urls changing like (though in my browser that time) that was a few years ago due to a redirect virus, so I jumped to the wrong assumption.

If "SEO thingy" is something to do with an intentional block list (?), I'll go edit that out of my post. If it's just a glitch, I'll leave it a bit in case it's helpful.

Those white marks on the paint are what I meant by avian sources; I think they are bird droppings...  :)

Offline Req

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5003 on: 07/04/2015 05:29 am »
By "SEO Thingy" I mean that it likely tries to hit the page and get it's title or somesuch, and it came up with that instead.  NOT working as intended whether it's that or some other parsing type of weirdness.
« Last Edit: 07/04/2015 05:31 am by Req »

Offline Wonger

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5004 on: 07/04/2015 05:36 am »
So they welded brackets onto the deck surface to assist in lifting.

Also wondering about the white streaks.  They are too spaced out uniformly to be the work of seagulls.

Edit - yeah, seagulls probably.
« Last Edit: 07/04/2015 06:04 am by Wonger »

Offline CJ

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5005 on: 07/04/2015 05:46 am »
By "SEO Thingy" I mean that it likely tries to hit the page and get it's title or somesuch, and it came up with that instead.  NOT working as intended whether it's that or some other parsing type of weirdness.

Ah, thanks!

I know very little about web site software and the servers it runs on (other than a few basic facts, such as that it's based upon black magic).

I'm going to add one of the many photos of the ASDS that I believe were taken by redit user pensie, in the hope that that's okay by the rules of this site and the internet in general (I looked, but can see no copyright, nor any request not to repost). If I'm mistaken on any of this, somebody please let me know and I'll remove it.

Just to repeat for those who didn't see it above; Pensie's thread, with a link at the top to the rest of his ASDS pics, is here; http://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/3c2jnf/just_read_the_instructions_is_now_docked_in_the/


In the attached pic, we can clearly see the first part of JRtI's name in the wing segment, plus the white marks (avian bombardment). No sign of activity, and my guess is we won't see much (aside perhaps from wing attachment) until close to Jason 3's launch date. 


Online catdlr

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« Last Edit: 07/04/2015 07:56 am by catdlr »
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Offline OxCartMark

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5007 on: 07/04/2015 04:09 pm »
I really thought they were going to put it where I had posted its "proper" position to be.  Makes a lot of sense (to me) that it be where I've got it and not where they've got it.  Did they not read my post?  Do they not have NSF access while out to sea?  But in one of the images you can see two welders in the foreground (on shore) which leads to the conclusion that either this is the spot or this is the spot where the work will be done.  Strange, such a thin strip of land to work in, put a crane in, possibly build a mount for standing the stages.  Also in one of those pictures you can see the large building in the background (AltaSea's building?) that says "Warehouse no. 1", which I had thought was called "War House", from its navy origins.  Coulda sworn I read a Wikipedia article of that name and had other sources.  Hmmm.
« Last Edit: 07/04/2015 04:10 pm by OxCartMark »
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Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5008 on: 07/04/2015 04:34 pm »
I really thought they were going to put it where I had posted its "proper" position to be.  Makes a lot of sense (to me) that it be where I've got it and not where they've got it.  Did they not read my post?  Do they not have NSF access while out to sea?  But in one of the images you can see two welders in the foreground (on shore) which leads to the conclusion that either this is the spot or this is the spot where the work will be done.  Strange, such a thin strip of land to work in, put a crane in, possibly build a mount for standing the stages.  Also in one of those pictures you can see the large building in the background (AltaSea's building?) that says "Warehouse no. 1", which I had thought was called "War House", from its navy origins.  Coulda sworn I read a Wikipedia article of that name and had other sources.  Hmmm.

Asking for a clarification, Mark.  Are you saying you think that the ASDS is currently parked where your green X is located?  Because, if so, you're right, that doesn't seem like an appropriate location for the kind of work that will likely need to be done on the barge to get it ready for its mission.

Perhaps this is a temporary parking spot?  Maybe SpaceX decided to postpone the modification work for a while during the current accident investigation?  It could make sense to wait and not spend the money now to complete and kit out the ASDS when it may not be used for four to six months later than originally planned.

One of the ways in which SpaceX seems to be pursuing cost effectiveness is using JIT processing flow logic (applying the term casually, not strictly), in which things are done/fabricated/delivered/prepared Just In Time.  This is a somewhat different paradigm from the military aerospace process that the industry has tended to follow, where you get everything ready as soon as you can (at least not worrying so much about when it will then be needed in the processing cycle), and then leave it sit in storage until it's needed.  So, if it saves a few thousand dollars to wait and only start paying rent on the dock facilities closer to the time you'll need to start using that space, maybe SpaceX is saying "Why not save those few thousand dollars?"
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Offline OxCartMark

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5009 on: 07/04/2015 05:14 pm »
Asking for a clarification, Mark.  Are you saying you think that the ASDS is currently parked where your green X is located?  Because, if so, you're right, that doesn't seem like an appropriate location for the kind of work that will likely need to be done on the barge to get it ready for its mission.
Correct.  The red X is where Rhea and the ASDS are located, per the reddit posts, which shows pictures from the road, as well as a re-created overhead image showing them there.  Also backed up by AIS tracking of Rhea's position.  If you've not followed the links above its worth doing.

In contravenement of both your JIT theory and my "other place" theory we have two large welders sitting right next to the bargetobeASDS, with no other explanation for their placement there.

Also, I want to add, the area where I suggested that it be docked appears to be somewhat cluttered in the overhead images but really its not.  It was formerly a tank farm and liquid transfer station.  The apparent clutter on the ground is just the pads where tanks had been, not the tanks themselves.
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Offline OxCartMark

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5010 on: 07/04/2015 05:21 pm »
Go Quest is back in Jacksonville, arrived 3-1/2 hours ago.  Elsbeth III and ASDS OCISLY there.  And! Carnival Fascination.

No apparent activity.  Not surprising given that its Saturday, its the 4th of July, and there are no launches on the calendar.

One detail that may be telling - Go Quest isn't parked against the sea wall, but rather spaced away from it by Elsbeth III, a position which it wouldn't be likely to be in if Go Quest had come back with wreckage on deck which needed to be offloaded by one of the telehandlers.
« Last Edit: 07/04/2015 05:30 pm by OxCartMark »
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Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5011 on: 07/04/2015 05:30 pm »
The site software is rewriting imgur to "temp ban" plus a letter, which is probably a clue.

Offline CJ

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5012 on: 07/04/2015 06:25 pm »
Hey, OCISLY is on live cruisecam right now, and nobody even mentioned it?  :o

http://www.cruisin.me/cruise-ship-webcams/carnival-cruise-lines/carnival-fascination.php

Go Quest is there too. I'll attach a screencap. 



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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5013 on: 07/04/2015 08:00 pm »
Hey, OCISLY is on live cruisecam right now, and nobody even mentioned it?  :o

http://www.cruisin.me/cruise-ship-webcams/carnival-cruise-lines/carnival-fascination.php

Go Quest is there too. I'll attach a screencap.

Ah, yes.  All and more.  Two posts previous. 
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Offline Wonger

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5014 on: 07/04/2015 08:04 pm »
I really thought they were going to put it where I had posted its "proper" position to be.  Makes a lot of sense (to me) that it be where I've got it and not where they've got it.  Did they not read my post?  Do they not have NSF access while out to sea?  But in one of the images you can see two welders in the foreground (on shore) which leads to the conclusion that either this is the spot or this is the spot where the work will be done.  Strange, such a thin strip of land to work in, put a crane in, possibly build a mount for standing the stages.  Also in one of those pictures you can see the large building in the background (AltaSea's building?) that says "Warehouse no. 1", which I had thought was called "War House", from its navy origins.  Coulda sworn I read a Wikipedia article of that name and had other sources.  Hmmm.

Asking for a clarification, Mark.  Are you saying you think that the ASDS is currently parked where your green X is located?  Because, if so, you're right, that doesn't seem like an appropriate location for the kind of work that will likely need to be done on the barge to get it ready for its mission.

Perhaps this is a temporary parking spot?  Maybe SpaceX decided to postpone the modification work for a while during the current accident investigation?  It could make sense to wait and not spend the money now to complete and kit out the ASDS when it may not be used for four to six months later than originally planned.

One of the ways in which SpaceX seems to be pursuing cost effectiveness is using JIT processing flow logic (applying the term casually, not strictly), in which things are done/fabricated/delivered/prepared Just In Time.  This is a somewhat different paradigm from the military aerospace process that the industry has tended to follow, where you get everything ready as soon as you can (at least not worrying so much about when it will then be needed in the processing cycle), and then leave it sit in storage until it's needed.  So, if it saves a few thousand dollars to wait and only start paying rent on the dock facilities closer to the time you'll need to start using that space, maybe SpaceX is saying "Why not save those few thousand dollars?"

I think your idea about the JIT processing has legs.  When they finally got OCISLY done and tested, I got the impression they were cutting it close for the CRS7 mission.  When industry applies JIT, it's primarily to keep inventory costs and flooring costs down.  In SX's case, it's probably for cash flow, and for not committing to a design too early in case changes need to be made. 

Along the lines of cost savings, I was wondering if SX is going to fly out the team from Louisiana that did the prior work on the other ASDSs.  Maybe other than using some union welders from California, it would make sense to bring out people who are higher on their learning curve in converting Marmacs to ASDSs.

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5015 on: 07/04/2015 08:58 pm »
I think your idea about the JIT processing has legs.

I don't.  Why would you have two welders ready to go right now if you were going to defer the work as long as possible, and that looks to be quite a while?
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Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5016 on: 07/04/2015 09:07 pm »
My personal theory is that the JIT processing is more to do with the R&D learning curve: maximizing the chances to learn about the current ASDS performance before committing to the next.  There were certainly some lessons learned about thruster sizing and equipment protection.  Perhaps deck sizing lessons as well, they might have been waiting to see if 300' long was really big enough.

Still unknown: whether their CONOPS for securing the stage and sailing back is sufficient, provisions for flyback, etc.  Probably only the former argues for delaying the outfitting of there MARMAC 303, but they may have other questions the hope to answer before starting the welds on the 303.  Maybe they have plans for robot welders or giant nets or a huge deployable lasso (or any if the other outlandish stage securement schemes floated in this forum) in a back drawer, ready to give to the welders as soon as they are convinced of the need.
« Last Edit: 07/04/2015 09:11 pm by cscott »

Offline CJ

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5017 on: 07/04/2015 10:23 pm »
Regarding the apparent (based on the readying of two operational ASDS) Just In Time (JIT) processing, IMHO, as in many things, there may be more than one reason.

One reason would be to allow time for design changes. Another would be cost, including the real cost of money. If, say, you complete the product (no matter what it is) and have it sitting around for six months, and the real cost of money to your organization is 5%, you've lost 2.5% (not counting compounding) vs. JIT. If you're using borrowed money, the cost of money is the interest rate. If you're using your own money, the cost is what the money would yield you if not spent.

Another factor in this case may be that the final fitting out and testing requires an expert team, so it may make more fiscal sense to do that quickly, and also, because of the real cost of money (time cost of money) do it as late as possible.

In the case of the ASDS in LA, the most cost-effective approach might be to take a gradual, ongoing pace with a small work crew. I do expect to see welding soon though, due to the welding gear there. I suspect, due to SpaceX probably having no idea when Jason 3 will launch (they can't know until they know the cause of the LOV, and then come up with a time estimate to fix it) that they won't let the ASDS just sit, but rather will work at a very slow pace until the schedule is known.

Another thing I'm wondering about is Rhea. Given the relative rarity of SpaceX launches from Vandy, will they keep Rhea with the ASDS full time the way they do Elsbeth III at JAX?

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5018 on: 07/04/2015 10:48 pm »
I really thought they were going to put it where I had posted its "proper" position to be.  Makes a lot of sense (to me) that it be where I've got it and not where they've got it.  Did they not read my post?  Do they not have NSF access while out to sea?  But in one of the images you can see two welders in the foreground (on shore) which leads to the conclusion that either this is the spot or this is the spot where the work will be done.  Strange, such a thin strip of land to work in, put a crane in, possibly build a mount for standing the stages.  Also in one of those pictures you can see the large building in the background (AltaSea's building?) that says "Warehouse no. 1", which I had thought was called "War House", from its navy origins.  Coulda sworn I read a Wikipedia article of that name and had other sources.  Hmmm.

OxCartMark,

I'm guessing that they will move this over to the location you mentioned.  The current location is very close to a public road, doesn't provide sufficient clearance for a crane and work area, along with lack of security, although I do see a portable security booth in the picture.  Probably after the weekend holiday here is over, we may see it moved.  Will see.
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Offline Wonger

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5019 on: 07/05/2015 04:53 am »
I really thought they were going to put it where I had posted its "proper" position to be.  Makes a lot of sense (to me) that it be where I've got it and not where they've got it.  Did they not read my post?  Do they not have NSF access while out to sea?  But in one of the images you can see two welders in the foreground (on shore) which leads to the conclusion that either this is the spot or this is the spot where the work will be done.  Strange, such a thin strip of land to work in, put a crane in, possibly build a mount for standing the stages.  Also in one of those pictures you can see the large building in the background (AltaSea's building?) that says "Warehouse no. 1", which I had thought was called "War House", from its navy origins.  Coulda sworn I read a Wikipedia article of that name and had other sources.  Hmmm.


I went back and reread the LA Daily News article:

http://www.dailynews.com/business/20150618/groundbreaking-partnership-announced-between-spacex-altasea-in-san-pedro

and it mentions Warhouse One (sic) as being next to the location of the SX land use agreement.  So I think you've parked Marmac 303 in the correct long term parking spot.  Maybe the current East Channel location is just Free Parking until they finalize the AltaSea contract.

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