NASASpaceFlight.com Forum

SpaceX Vehicles and Missions => SpaceX Facilities and Fleets => Topic started by: Chris Bergin on 03/10/2016 01:02 am

Title: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 03/10/2016 01:02 am
Thread 3 for the ASDS Fleet.

Honorary Thread 0:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35244.0
(Topic: Where will F9 flights 14 & 15 attempt "solid surface" landings?  (Read 134296 times) )

Honorary thread 0b: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31452.0
(Topic: First stage recovery at down-range locations  (Read 89853 times) )

Thread 1:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36140.0

Thread 2:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.0

The small matter of 1.65 million views, for a barge, that catches rockets....not much interest there then! ;)

Total views for these three "barge" threads: 1,655,527

Main Articles:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/11/spacex-autonomous-spaceport-drone-ship/
(Also contains links to other articles covering reusability tech).

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/06/spacex-augments-upgrades-drone-ship-armada/
(Also contain links to cover the fleet's evolution).

Other ASDS Articles (launches and such that involved the ASDS):
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/?s=%28ASDS%29

Also:

SpaceX Articles:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/spacex/

L2 SpaceX Section:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=55.0

----

As noted, threads on this site's forum get a lot of views. When you post, consider a lot of people are going to read your post. As such make your post worth reading. "Barge, LOLZ" is not worth reading. ;) Images from external sources need an accreditation link. That should do it, so I'll let you get on with your business.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 03/10/2016 01:27 am
I've been giving some thought to the hole in the deck. I'm not worried it holed the hill bottom too, because the ASDS was most likely ballasted (so there would have been water between the deck and hull bottom).

However... We've seen what LOX and RP1 do when they combine during other hard landings. Now, imagine that happening INSIDE the hull. I hope it didn't.

Incidentally, regarding repairing the hole; assuming there's not significant damage belowdecks, wouldn't slapping a bit over-sized steel plate atop the hole (It'd protrude above deck level, but only by its thickness) and welding it in place be good enough? Especially if there are time constraints? 

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/10/2016 01:31 am
Incidentally, regarding repairing the hole; assuming there's not significant damage belowdecks, wouldn't slapping a bit over-sized steel plate atop the hole (It'd protrude above deck level, but only by its thickness) and welding it in place be good enough? Especially if there are time constraints? 
I expect that depends on what the lease agreement says. Informed speculation holds that these are leased vessels, not purchased, and that they will someday perhaps be returned. The agreement may say that significant damages have to be repaired before returning, or repaired whenever damage happens (in case the return happens early, etc.)  so a patch like that might be OK for a while, or might be OK forever, or might not be OK at all because they want a real repair with replacement at the normal seams, not patching....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 03/10/2016 01:33 am
Incidentally, regarding repairing the hole; assuming there's not significant damage belowdecks, wouldn't slapping a bit over-sized steel plate atop the hole (It'd protrude above deck level, but only by its thickness) and welding it in place be good enough? Especially if there are time constraints? 
I expect that depends on what the lease agreement says. Informed speculation holds that these are leased vessels, not purchased, and that they will someday perhaps be returned. It may say that they have to be repaired before returning, or repaired whenever damage happens (in case the return happens early, eto)  so a patch like that might be OK for a while, or might be OK forever, or might not be OK at all.

Also kinda depends on when they'll need OCISLY to sail again, in terms of how quick-and-dirty the fix has to be.  As I just inquired in the CSR-8 discussion thread, if they try an RTLS on that flight, we may not have a need for OCISLY for a couple of months or more.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 03/10/2016 01:35 am
I believe a skilled welder could have the deck in like new condition in a day or two. Replacing the damaged equipment will take longer.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/10/2016 01:35 am
Thread 3 for the ASDS Fleet.

Thread 1:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36140.0

Thread 2:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.0

To this I want to add what I consider Thread 0, where NSF members first started sifting through the clues that SpaceX might have been headed toward using an ocean landing platform.

Thread 0:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35244.0
or Topic: Where will F9 flights 14 & 15 attempt "solid surface" landings?  (Read 134296 times)

Total views for these three "barge" threads: 1,655,527


edit: note that it was Kabloona that started the initial thread and he's been active thorough all of this.  A fact that Elon recognized when he named the phenomenon that happens when a rocket falls over as "kaboom".   ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/10/2016 01:35 am
I've been giving some thought to the hole in the deck. I'm not worried it holed the hill bottom too, because the ASDS was most likely ballasted (so there would have been water between the deck and hull bottom).

Good point.

However... We've seen what LOX and RP1 do when they combine during other hard landings. Now, imagine that happening INSIDE the hull. I hope it didn't.

Well, there's no evidence from the photo that it did.  One would also assume the ballast water to be relatively RP1-free, otherwise they wouldn't be pumping it over the side..

Incidentally, regarding repairing the hole; assuming there's not significant damage belowdecks, wouldn't slapping a bit over-sized steel plate atop the hole (It'd protrude above deck level, but only by its thickness) and welding it in place be good enough? Especially if there are time constraints?

It's really no big deal to cover the hole - cut out the daggy bits and weld a new plate in place.  The issue will be if there's any damage to the sub-structure (ribs, deck beams) and needing to repair those first ...to the satisfaction of their local USCG/ABS Inspector.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/10/2016 01:52 am
edit: note that it was Kabloona that started the initial thread and he's been active thorough all of this.  A fact that Elon recognized when he named the phenomenon that happens when a rocket falls over as "kaboom".   ::)

Thanks for the nod, but pure coincidence I assure you.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rocket Science on 03/10/2016 01:53 am
Great to hear that Elon wants to go for "another hole in one"... ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/10/2016 01:56 am
Incidentally, regarding repairing the hole; assuming there's not significant damage belowdecks, wouldn't slapping a bit over-sized steel plate atop the hole (It'd protrude above deck level, but only by its thickness) and welding it in place be good enough? Especially if there are time constraints? 
I expect that depends on what the lease agreement says. Informed speculation holds that these are leased vessels, not purchased, and that they will someday perhaps be returned. It may say that they have to be repaired before returning, or repaired whenever damage happens (in case the return happens early, eto)  so a patch like that might be OK for a while, or might be OK forever, or might not be OK at all.

Also kinda depends on when they'll need OCISLY to sail again, in terms of how quick-and-dirty the fix has to be.  As I just inquired in the CSR-8 discussion thread, if they try an RTLS on that flight, we may not have a need for OCISLY for a couple of months or more.

Someone just pointed out in the CRS-8 thread that the mission patch has been posted on Reddit and does not show a barge, FWIW.

And RTLS landing would give them more time to repair the barge, plus give them a higher probability of successful recovery, so I'm inclined to believe the barge will be out of action for a while.

(I had thought Elon's tweet implied next flight would be another barge landing attempt, but now I think I read too much into it.)

Quote
Elon Musk ‏@elonmusk
Rocket landed hard on the droneship. Didn't expect this one to work (v hot reentry), but next flight has a good chance.

"Next flight has a good chance" because it will be RTLS?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 03/10/2016 02:58 am
Falcon 9 uses an open hydraulic system that has a separate tank of RP-1 (which is used as the hydraulic fluid) pressurized by Nitrogen near the interstage, which, after use, drains down back into the main RP-1 tank for "reuse" by the engines. There are a variety of reasons that SpaceX made decisions to use this design:

A closed hydraulic system separate of the main RP-1 tank would require a pump to repressurize the RP-1 for reuse. This adds weight and complexity to something which you really don't want to make much heavier or more complex.

A closed hydraulic system that uses the RP-1 from the main tank is also infeasible as it would require a pump to push RP-1 up from the tank near the engines right to the top of the vehicle. There is no easy way of doing this.

Switching to an electromechanical system would require a very large amount of power to operate, which would require an impractical amount of batteries.

All three of the above solutions require pumps to be active or some energy storage mechanism - not very attractive or really suitable for Falcon 9 as the engines are only burning over a subset of the return trajectory.

The grid fins are deployed at approximately T+5 minutes. This is before the reentry burn takes place, which does not last for very long. For the majority of the time the grid fins are deployed, Falcon 9 is in free flight. SpaceX's solution is rather clever, actually:

It does not require power from the engines to operate.

It doesn't involve a complex plumbing solution which adds weight to lift the RP-1 up from the bottom tank

It doesn't add much mass beyond the pressure vessel, since the RP-1 is "free" as it can be "reused" by the engines.

Overall, it weighs less than a similar amount of pressurized Nitrogen cold gas to steer.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/10/2016 03:15 am
Falcon 9 uses an open hydraulic system that has a separate tank of RP-1 (which is used as the hydraulic fluid) pressurized by Nitrogen near the interstage, which, after use, drains down back into the main RP-1 tank for "reuse" by the engines. There are a variety of reasons that SpaceX made decisions to use this design:

I don't think its been established that the hydraulic fluid being used is fuel.  I don't think its been established that the expended fluid goes into the main fuel tank.  These have been speculated as likely and seem so but I don't think its been proven.  Or am I wrong?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 03/10/2016 03:20 am
I believe a skilled welder could have the deck in like new condition in a day or two. Replacing the damaged equipment will take longer.

Good point. I've done some welding (I'm not good at it though) so what I'd look at first is what's damaged below the deck plate: that, IMHO, will be the hard part, because we'd be talking structural members.

It's also IMHO a question of when it needs to be done by.

As mentioned upthread, there's no ASDS on the CRS-8 mission patch, which strongly hints at a RTLS. If the F9 1.2 (or should I call it F9 FT?) has the capacity to do RTLS on a Dragon launch, my strong guess is that doing so would be the preferred option. If so,  OCISLY may have plenty of time for repairs, refurbishment, R&R, etc.   

Incidentally, regarding repairing the hole; assuming there's not significant damage belowdecks, wouldn't slapping a bit over-sized steel plate atop the hole (It'd protrude above deck level, but only by its thickness) and welding it in place be good enough? Especially if there are time constraints? 
I expect that depends on what the lease agreement says. Informed speculation holds that these are leased vessels, not purchased, and that they will someday perhaps be returned. The agreement may say that significant damages have to be repaired before returning, or repaired whenever damage happens (in case the return happens early, etc.)  so a patch like that might be OK for a while, or might be OK forever, or might not be OK at all because they want a real repair with replacement at the normal seams, not patching....
I've never dealt with a maritime lease, but I've dealt with all sorts of commercial building leases. *IF* there's a similarity, a temporary repair would be okay for a while under most, especially if it's needed to avoid any downtime. The caveats would be that the temp repair does not risk further damage, and meets codes. On the other hand, most commercial building owners would not be okay with the lessee firing enormous rockets at it. :)

However... We've seen what LOX and RP1 do when they combine during other hard landings. Now, imagine that happening INSIDE the hull. I hope it didn't.

Well, there's no evidence from the photo that it did.  One would also assume the ballast water to be relatively RP1-free, otherwise they wouldn't be pumping it over the side..


Good point; pumping water over the side is indeed a pretty clear indication of no contamination. You also raised an excellent point regarding stratifying inspectors when it comes to fixing the hole. I darkly suspect that'll take much longer than the actual repairs.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 03/10/2016 04:19 am
Falcon 9 uses an open hydraulic system that has a separate tank of RP-1 (which is used as the hydraulic fluid) pressurized by Nitrogen near the interstage, which, after use, drains down back into the main RP-1 tank for "reuse" by the engines. There are a variety of reasons that SpaceX made decisions to use this design:

I don't think its been established that the hydraulic fluid being used is fuel.  I don't think its been established that the expended fluid goes into the main fuel tank.  These have been speculated as likely and seem so but I don't think its been proven.  Or am I wrong?

Wolfram66 is stating all this as facts.
Either its complete and detailed speculation without any statement to that effect ...
or Wolfram66 is in a position to know and to discuss it in a public thread.
I certainly hope it's the latter as this is precisely the kind of details I want to learn about and understand.


PS If SpaceX is using fuel that gets dumped into the fuel tank, why wouldn't they pressurized with Helium?
There is a large supply of He and it's the gas already being used to pressurize the fuel.
Is it because they need an even higher pressure, because the hydraulic actuators would be powered by the differential pressure, and the fuel tank drain is itself pressurized?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/10/2016 04:52 am
Incidentally, regarding repairing the hole; assuming there's not significant damage belowdecks, wouldn't slapping a bit over-sized steel plate atop the hole (It'd protrude above deck level, but only by its thickness) and welding it in place be good enough? Especially if there are time constraints? 
I expect that depends on what the lease agreement says. Informed speculation holds that these are leased vessels, not purchased, and that they will someday perhaps be returned. The agreement may say that significant damages have to be repaired before returning, or repaired whenever damage happens (in case the return happens early, etc.)  so a patch like that might be OK for a while, or might be OK forever, or might not be OK at all because they want a real repair with replacement at the normal seams, not patching....
I've never dealt with a maritime lease, but I've dealt with all sorts of commercial building leases. *IF* there's a similarity, a temporary repair would be okay for a while under most, especially if it's needed to avoid any downtime. The caveats would be that the temp repair does not risk further damage, and meets codes. On the other hand, most commercial building owners would not be okay with the lessee firing enormous rockets at it. :)

Lease or no lease, the way the maritime regulations stand, that hole needs to be fixed to the satisfaction of the USCG, ABS, SpaceX, the owners, workers, insurers and any other Joe who happens by... so there really isn't any option other than to fix it properly.

At the end of the day, unless the ASDS is "in all respects fit for sea", it doesn't go anywhere.

However... We've seen what LOX and RP1 do when they combine during other hard landings. Now, imagine that happening INSIDE the hull. I hope it didn't.

Well, there's no evidence from the photo that it did.  One would also assume the ballast water to be relatively RP1-free, otherwise they wouldn't be pumping it over the side..


Good point; pumping water over the side is indeed a pretty clear indication of no contamination. You also raised an excellent point regarding stratifying inspectors when it comes to fixing the hole. I darkly suspect that'll take much longer than the actual repairs.

"Stratifying inspectors".. I like that.  Stringing 'em up and hosing 'em down doesn't work either.  ;D

Anyways, it really depends on the extent of the damage.  If whatever-it-was managed to miss anything vital (given the hole is located in the corner of one of the tanks as can be seen by following the deck-plate joins they sure came mighty close!) it could be just a quick phone call, drive down, peek in the hole, "she'll be right" and weld it all back up again.

...but if they took out a rib or deck beam or two then, yes, that could take a while.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: BlazingAngel665 on 03/10/2016 05:30 am
Falcon 9 uses an open hydraulic system that has a separate tank of RP-1 (which is used as the hydraulic fluid) pressurized by Nitrogen near the interstage, which, after use, drains down back into the main RP-1 tank for "reuse" by the engines. There are a variety of reasons that SpaceX made decisions to use this design:

I don't think its been established that the hydraulic fluid being used is fuel.  I don't think its been established that the expended fluid goes into the main fuel tank.  These have been speculated as likely and seem so but I don't think its been proven.  Or am I wrong?

Wolfram66 is stating all this as facts.
Either its complete and detailed speculation without any statement to that effect ...
or Wolfram66 is in a position to know and to discuss it in a public thread.
I certainly hope it's the latter as this is precisely the kind of details I want to learn about and understand.


PS If SpaceX is using fuel that gets dumped into the fuel tank, why wouldn't they pressurized with Helium?
There is a large supply of He and it's the gas already being used to pressurize the fuel.
Is it because they need an even higher pressure, because the hydraulic actuators would be powered by the differential pressure, and the fuel tank drain is itself pressurized?

Most of what Wolfram66 has said meshes well with what is known for certain. Elon's tweets after the first ASDS hard landing tell us that the hydraulic system is definitely open loop. Using Nitrogen as a pressurant makes good sense based upon the location of all the components. RP-1 is used as a hydraulic fluid for TVC so it makes good sense to use it again for gridfin actuation. Finally we know that the reserve of fluid for the grid fins is separate from the normal RP-1 supply and  non replenish-able, so having a separate reservoir makes sense as well. I'd treat most of that as fairly certain.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/10/2016 05:40 am
I doubt you'd use RP-1 if you're using a separate reservoir.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 03/10/2016 07:22 am
I doubt you'd use RP-1 if you're using a separate reservoir.

Propylene glycol and water would be sufficient - with the advantage it can be discharged overboard after use as it's non-toxic.

I don't like the idea of using RP-1 and trying to return the waste to the main tank: I doubt the pressure in the grid fin hydraulic system is higher than the tank - which would prevent it getting there after use.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/10/2016 07:41 am
Falcon 9 uses an open hydraulic system that has a separate tank of RP-1 (which is used as the hydraulic fluid) pressurized by Nitrogen near the interstage, which, after use, drains down back into the main RP-1 tank for "reuse" by the engines.

I don't believe this is correct, and in any case what does it have to do with the ASDS? Wrong thread.

Grid fin hydraulic thread is over here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36536.0

Back to ASDS topics, please...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: symbios on 03/10/2016 10:41 am
...

Incidentally, regarding repairing the hole; assuming there's not significant damage belowdecks, wouldn't slapping a bit over-sized steel plate atop the hole (It'd protrude above deck level, but only by its thickness) and welding it in place be good enough? Especially if there are time constraints?

It is never recommended to fixing a hole by slapping a patch over it. You will get moisture in between the plates and this will cause corrosion. Always cut out the bad part and weld in a new plate. It is not like it is a lot more work; it would only be sloppy workmanship not to.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/10/2016 11:48 am
More grid fin stuff is off topic. Take it to the thread pointed out a few posts back. Or else your posts walk the plank. Savvy?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: starhawk92 on 03/10/2016 12:38 pm
Where would the repairs to the ASDS happen?  Can they fix it where it berths, or does it go to another port with the proper equipment and materials?  I lived in Kansas for a long time, so I know nothing about the sea/am the ultimate landlubber.

Thanks!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/10/2016 01:06 pm
Where would the repairs to the ASDS happen?  Can they fix it where it berths, or does it go to another port with the proper equipment and materials?  I lived in Kansas for a long time, so I know nothing about the sea/am the ultimate landlubber.

Thanks!

The barge owner, McDonough Marine, is based on the Louisiana Gulf Coast, and that's where the barges have had their wings installed.

But hopefully this damage is minor enough that it can be done at Port Canaveral.  Welding equipment and steel plate are portable, as are experienced welders, and welding can be done even underwater if necessary (I just learned this by watching "Deadliest Job Interviews."  ;))
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 03/10/2016 02:37 pm
And JRtI had its wings installed in port, not at the Louisiana shipbuilder.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/10/2016 02:46 pm
And JRtI had its wings installed in port, not at the Louisiana shipbuilder.

Yes, good point. I forgot that minor operation.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/10/2016 05:59 pm
FCC permit for CRS-8 transmitters:

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=69496&RequestTimeout=1000

ASDS location is given as 30.5 degrees N, 78.5 degrees W.

Permit does not guarantee an ASDS landing attempt on CRS-8, but it is apparently an option if they can get the repairs done fast enough.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Craig_VG on 03/10/2016 07:55 pm
Here are some more photos of the ASDS I took today. Drone, Panorama, and some shots from the Exploration Tower.

Full Album:

(Also caught a delta stage rolling up to the base)

http://imgur.com/a/SHt5g
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gadgetmind on 03/10/2016 08:02 pm
So does it have a big hole dead centre or not? Most pictures say not, the first aerial view suggests it does, but maybe a bit of photoshop?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/10/2016 08:09 pm
I was the one that speculated that there may have been a hit dead center.  Shadows from scrap that was nearby was the other possibility.  This and other pictures prove that there never was a hard hit there.

But on the other side, the newly exposed bottom side, there appear to be more barnacles than I've ever seen in one place, about 2/3 of an acre of them.

edited, meant to say "never was" not "never wasn't".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 03/10/2016 09:04 pm
I was the one that speculated that there may have been a hit dead center.  Shadows from scrap that was nearby was the other possibility.  This and other pictures prove that there never wasn't a hard hit there.

Do you mean "never was"?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Okie_Steve on 03/10/2016 09:53 pm
Anyone know enough about metallurgy to estimate the minimum force required to puncture the steel plating?
That and dry mass would give a lower bound on the velocity at contact.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/10/2016 10:12 pm
Anyone know enough about metallurgy to estimate the minimum force required to puncture the steel plating?
That and dry mass would give a lower bound on the velocity at contact.

I think we have a reasonable idea of deck plate thickness, well enough to make a meaningful guesstimate, but the result will be strongly influenced by the assumed contact area, which in turn depends on angle of impact, how the aft end of the stage deforms on impact, etc, etc.

OxCartMark did a detailed calculation a while back assuming all the steel plate in the barge was of equal thickness, and he got a result of 1" thick all around, so I'd trust that number as being in the right ballpark.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1341509#msg1341509
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 03/10/2016 10:33 pm
Here are some more photos of the ASDS I took today. Drone, Panorama, and some shots from the Exploration Tower.

Full Album:

(Also caught a delta stage rolling up to the base)

http://imgur.com/a/SHt5g
Thanks!  Is that a person I see inside?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AncientU on 03/10/2016 10:41 pm
Anyone know enough about metallurgy to estimate the minimum force required to puncture the steel plating?
That and dry mass would give a lower bound on the velocity at contact.

I think we have a reasonable idea of deck plate thickness, well enough to make a meaningful guesstimate, but the result will be strongly influenced by the assumed contact area, which in turn depends on angle of impact, how the aft end of the stage deforms on impact, etc, etc.

OxCartMark did a detailed calculation a while back assuming all the steel plate in the barge was of equal thickness, and he got a result of 1" thick all around, so I'd trust that number as being in the right ballpark.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1341509#msg1341509

By the look of that tear and the possibly wood structure below, I'm wondering if the deck is some type of composite.  One inch steel would have peeled back, not torn; maybe quarter inch plate could tear... And why would you install timbers below decks?

The welding the landing legs/pads to the deck was discussed for an earlier version of the ASDS.  New tie-downs could be because deck is no longer steel.


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/10/2016 10:49 pm
Quote
By the look of that tear and the possibly wood structure below, I'm wondering if the deck is some type of composite.  One inch steel would have peeled back, not torn; maybe quarter inch plate could tear... And why would you install timbers below decks?

I think it did both "peel" and "tear." It looks from that photo like a big petal of the "peeled down" steel has been cut away. Timbers may have been to support the bent "petal" from below while it was being cut out.


(After peeled steel cut out:)

(http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39766.0;attach=1104036)




(Before peeled steel cut out:)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/10/2016 11:19 pm
OxCartMark did a detailed calculation a while back assuming all the steel plate in the barge was of equal thickness, and he got a result of 1" thick all around, so I'd trust that number as being in the right ballpark.

True I did that based on the assumption of uniform thickness of all outer surfaces and ballast partitions and my weight numbers came out exceedingly close to the known weight but afterward someone with fewer assumptions and more naval engineering knowledge (Docmordrid??) came in and convinced us very convincingly that the deck thickness was something else.  1/2"?,  I seem to vaguely recall.  If someone wants to sort through the 300+ pages of ASDS thread 2 they could probably find it.


Anyone know enough about metallurgy to estimate the minimum force required to puncture the steel plating?
That and dry mass would give a lower bound on the velocity at contact.

There are so many problems with trying to do that with normal classroom mechanical engineering knowledge, so many.  You've got strain rate sensitivity (the material's yield strength is higher in a fast hit than in a standard tensile test), you have deformation of the plate into a partial bulge so that even knowing the area of the break you aren't able to multiply that area simply by the shear strength (if it was punched out) or tensile strength (if it was domed and the dome pulled off), and you have the force at the interface of the plate and the rocket being divided between impact (accelerating the plate) and doing work to open the hole.  Also, its not going to happen simultaneously around the perimeter of the hole but rather it would be a sequence of local actions.

I'd guess that the best answer to your question if there is one will come from the military field where I presume there are charts or formulas of projectile size or mass or energy vs. ship hole size.  Perhaps if nobody steps forward with such info we could look around at ships that have been damaged by impacts of known energy (USS Cole comes to mind but probably much thicker steel plate) and work somewhat backward to see what energy and thus speed the stage would have.

Or wait a few more days and see if we can get speed info from the video.

OK, here is a really quick but useless extrapolation to be used for entertainment purposes only:
An online chart of punch press tonnage for these assumptions [1/2" A36 steel, 1" diameter punch] shows an expected punch force of 50 tons.  Assuming the situation of a hole being punched in a machine [all sheared at once, force is proportional to perimeter which is proportional to diameter] then for a 12 foot diameter the force would be 144x 50 tons or 7200 tons, 14.4M lbf, 6M kgf.  Don't take this calculation seriously other than to say you wouldn't want to have your finger between the crashing stage and the deck plate during the event.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 03/10/2016 11:28 pm
Six portable welders and a dude.

Steel delivery?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 03/10/2016 11:34 pm
OxCartMark is correct above that there are MANY variables here. Amusingly, a lot of this kind of analysis parallels the very empirical work performed in the WWII era and earlier by the U.S. Navy Bureau of Ships with regard to armor plate penetration studies using a wide variety of projectiles. The outlines of what's involved in a full analysis of that stuff can be gleaned from reading some of those old BuShips Battle Damage Assessment Reports and books/articles by trivia-obsessed #shipnerds, who spend as much time rehashing the Battle of Jutland as we do parsing ShitElonSays and SpaceX kremlinology - more, actually, since they've been at it for almost a century now.  Google is your friend if you want to dig into that stuff.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 03/10/2016 11:50 pm
(USS Cole comes to mind but probably much thicker steel plate)
Not necessarily thicker:

http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent?file=FL_cole_bradp

Quote
The blast ripped a 40-by-20 foot hole in the Cole's half-inch-thick hull plates below the forward smokestack,

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/11/2016 12:11 am
Quote
By the look of that tear and the possibly wood structure below, I'm wondering if the deck is some type of composite.  One inch steel would have peeled back, not torn; maybe quarter inch plate could tear... And why would you install timbers below decks?

I think it did both "peel" and "tear." It looks from that photo like a big petal of the "peeled down" steel has been cut away. Timbers may have been to support the bent "petal" from below while it was being cut out.

There's absolutely no doubt, and never has been, that it's a steel deck.. but let's agree it's approximately 3/4" thick (give or take 1/4") shall we?? :D

The timbers could also be propping up a busted deck beam whilst they get in there and weld it back in place.

It's telling to me that they've pumped out all their ballast tanks - anti-foul (what's left of it) showing all round, spill control boom yet no evidence of hydrocarbon sheen on the water - not something they normally do after target practice.  At first I thought maybe that meant they had a smallish leak, but it's more likely they need the compartment absolutely dry to carry out the repairs and do a close inspection of the hull from inside and want the work-site as level as possible.


Adding: Welding spatter and filings plus salt water = instant rust and is a right PITA to clean up afterwards - and you can't just leave it there either.  Usual practice the world over is to put down hessian sacks or similar and vacuum up afterwards and both of those things are kinda difficult inside a wet compartment.  And that's ignoring the discomfort caused by welding (heat) inside a poorly-ventilated black steel box with condensation running all around (and on!) you whilst you try to strike a spark.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 03/11/2016 12:16 am
3/4" thick based on what? I have seen lots of speculation about deck thickness, but no authoritative citation.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Arb on 03/11/2016 12:23 am
Is that a landing leg?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/11/2016 12:25 am
3/4" thick based on what? I have seen lots of speculation about deck thickness, but no authoritative citation.

Refer OxCartMark's post back 5..

FWIW, I still think it's more likely on the 1/2" side of things - but I could be wrong. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/11/2016 12:35 am
Just noticed a thing or two in the pictures that Kabloona posted above.  That hole is in one of the compartments at the edge of the Marmac barge.  Beyond that is deck extension.  Hmm.  Let's back up and think about the impact slam event.  After the rocket scrap broke through the deck it would have done essentially a belly flop into the swimming pool below which had approximately 10 feet of water standing in it.  If it hit slowly then no big deal.  But if it had substantial remaining speed then it could have generated significant hydraulic pressure bulging out the plates around the impact.  That could be the bottom plate, the plates between compartments, or now I understand it could also be the plate on the side of the hull.  That plate is at the base of a number of deck extension braces.  I tried to go back to look at the side of the hull in the images we have of it coming into port but the image quality and lighting don't allow any conclusions.  http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1501108#msg1501108

Then we have the tank walls themselves which could have been directly impacted by the rocket coming down on their edge.  And internal bracing / structure may have been hit.

Below I'm re-re-posting some images that have been posted here before, both by meself and Ohsin depicting the tank divisions.  These are for only the Marmac barge, not the deck extensions.  I've added an approximately 12' red circle for scale but its location in the fore-aft direction is anybody's guess.

And then there's the dark spot approximately 1' in diameter just inside the cones and tape (Kabloona's picture above).  That is at the edge of the Marmac barge.  One might just hypothesize that it too is a hole.  One of the caps to the ballast tanks has been removed, that's what I observed.

I'm thinking that its probable that there will be multiple plates and structures that need to be replaced.  But still, relatively easy going with flat rectangular low carbon steel.

As for the image of the welders and stuff on the truck, I think some of those welders are plasma cutters.  The number of them would seem to indicate that they aren't planning to replace just the deck plate.  And that bundle of other stuff being lifted off the truck, not plate, something else.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/11/2016 12:39 am
There's absolutely no doubt, and never has been, that it's a steel deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/11/2016 01:14 am
Hmm, I just stumbled into another predecessor to this thread

Honorary thread 0b: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31452.0
Topic: First stage recovery at down-range locations  (Read 89853 times)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/11/2016 01:42 am
Below I'm re-re-posting some images that have been posted here before, both by meself and Ohsin depicting the tank divisions.  These are for only the Marmac barge, not the deck extensions.  I've added an approximately 12' red circle for scale but its location in the fore-aft direction is anybody's guess.

And then there's the dark spot approximately 1' in diameter just inside the cones and tape (Kabloona's picture above).  That is at the edge of the Marmac barge.  One might just hypothesize that it too is a hole.

OxCartMark, I think you're a compartment too far aft.

Looking at the photo again and comparing the ballast tank diagram, the last compartment is at the stern and the stage hit is 8'-10' forward of the bulkhead (the one in line with the ends of the wings).  It looks to me like the stage hit took out a deck beam - right across the center of the hole - and damaged another aft of it.

I can't see any other damage that isn't part of the one big hole..

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/11/2016 01:45 am
Like rocket catching barges?  Got some time?  Try punching in "marmac 303" or "marmac 304 in this link and hitting search.  http://www.eagle.org/safenet/record/record_vesselsearch (http://www.eagle.org/safenet/record/record_vesselsearch)

Among other things you get inspection records and the type of steel used, which is 'ABS Grade A', which itself is a search term that will send you off to some interesting reading.
__________

Six portable welders and a dude.
You're going to need more dudes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 03/11/2016 02:04 am
To try and illustrate a couple of things, I'm attaching a marked-up detail of Craig's aerial-view post.

First, the yellow lines define the distance between the aft-most extent of the hole (almost exactly at the level of the wing "roots") and the end of the barge.  Looks to me like Mark's estimate in terms of which compartment was holed is pretty good, but I would think his first marked-up diagram, showing the hole to fore of the frame between the aftmost compartment and the one to fore of it, is more correct.  I think the wall between those compartments is just aft of the wing roots, not fore of them.

The yellow lines give a really good feel for the extent of distance between the aft end of the barge and where the hole was punched.  And it looks to me like the fore line, still aft of the hole, would be fore of the first compartment bulkhead.

Second, what seems to be being referred to as "the second hole" is a very dark area, somewhat similarly shaped to the obvious hole, just across the barge from the obvious hole.  I've circled it in red.  This area was covered by debris and tarps on the earlier aerial views, and seems to be one of the foci of the tire scuffs and drag marks that result from the piling up of the debris and its subsequent removal.

I'd be willing to bet that this really dark spot is a place where the decking had been extremely thoroughly washed.  Perhaps some type of fluid came out of the debris and pooled here, and either discolored the deck or required a very thorough cleaning?

Edit to correct picture attribution (oops, sorry) and to point out that I drew the yellow lines, and yes, I know the aft yellow line is about five feet behind the barge.  It was more visible there... :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/11/2016 02:16 am
FCC permit for CRS-8 transmitters:

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=69496&RequestTimeout=1000

ASDS location is given as 30.5 degrees N, 78.5 degrees W.

Permit does not guarantee an ASDS landing attempt on CRS-8, but it is apparently an option if they can get the repairs done fast enough.

So it's back to east of Jacksonville, about 173 mi off that coast and about 192 mi from Port Canaveral.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/11/2016 02:33 am
Like rocket catching barges?  Got some time?  Try punching in "marmac 303" or "marmac 304 in this link and hitting search.  http://www.eagle.org/safenet/record/record_vesselsearch (http://www.eagle.org/safenet/record/record_vesselsearch)

Among other things you get inspection records and the type of steel used, which is 'ABS Grade A', which itself is a search term that will send you off to some interesting reading.

Drat!  The secret is out..  :-X

Seriously though: Yes, that's the place to go for details of any ABS-approved vessel.. and that's most commercial vessels in the USA.  In the case of our target-barges however, you'll find more recent updates on the USCG PSIX site (google it) because, in the case of the Marmacs, the USCG organise the inspections on behalf of ABS.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/11/2016 02:35 am
Quote
I'd be willing to bet that this really dark spot is a place where the decking had been extremely thoroughly washed.  Perhaps some type of fluid came out of the debris and pooled here, and either discolored the deck or required a very thorough cleaning?

Hydraulic fluid from the grid fin reservoir ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/11/2016 02:41 am
what seems to be being referred to as "the second hole" is a very dark area, somewhat similarly shaped to the obvious hole, just across the barge from the obvious hole.  I've circled it in red.  This area was covered by debris and tarps on the earlier aerial views, and seems to be one of the foci of the tire scuffs and drag marks that result from the piling up of the debris and its subsequent removal.

That is not the potential hole I was speculating as maybe being a hole.  I've marked up the first image below to show what I thought might be a hole.  But then I had a revelation.  It isn't another rocket puncture hole, its a hole. It is one of the many small holes with removable covers that the barge has for access to the ballast tanks.  Its placement along the edge is a guarantee of that, final answer.  The last three images I'm posting are of some of these holes from previous discussion.  Case closed (before it was much open).  Even the green garden hose seems to be the same.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 03/11/2016 06:26 am
Thanks for those amazing images Craig_VG :) First stage took out two ballast compartments and it did that to what I assume is second most strong region on barge deck first would be where four compartments meet.

If it lande.. I mean ploughed through middle of ballast compartment damage might have been much more.

Hole aligns to covered bollard box on sides(3rd from stern)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/11/2016 12:46 pm
First stage took out...
I feel you know more about ASDS anatomy than anyone on this board so its hard to argue with you but according to your dimensioned diagram that I reposted above that cross ship bulkhead, the second from the rear that you think was hit is 79' 9" forward of the stern.  I have a hard time scaling that distance using something of known width such as the 8.0 foot wide shipping containers.

Hole aligns to covered bollard box on sides(3rd from stern)
What is a bollard box?  You might have to point this feature out.  Not knowing the answer to this it appears  to me that your line across the deck is based on following a pre-existing line across the deck, presumably a weld line?  Which would presumably be on top of a bulkhead as you say(?)

And as a reminder to everyone, the red circles I posted above are very approximate in their fore-aft placement, I'm not suggesting any accuracy there.  There may be some degree of accuracy in the diameter of the circle and its cross ship placement.


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 03/11/2016 02:17 pm
From the exploration tower photos it appears that the on-site forensics are done and they are well into the cleanup phase.  I see wood packing crates scattered over the deck, each filled with "Falcon droppings" and then another large blue steel shipping container which appears to have the "big stuff" (tank panels, etc).  As noted above, they've already cut off some of the peeled back steel, pumped the ballast tanks dry, and ordered a bunch of welders and/or cutters for the repair work.  There are some open boxes near the "down" Thrustmaster which might be repair parts. The urgency might give us a clue as to whether OCISLY might be used for CRS-8.

I'm a little disappointed: I was hoping for some bottom hull fix-up, and that MARMAC 300 might be recalled for the job.  I was imagining MARMAC 300 getting some timbers lashed to the top, being submerged under OCISLY, and then triumphantly refloated, lifting OCISLY, to be the new temporary work area.  Aw, never mind---I can see it so clearly in my head I don't need for it to happen in real life. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 03/11/2016 05:25 pm
I was imagining MARMAC 300 getting some timbers lashed to the top, being submerged under OCISLY, and then triumphantly refloated, lifting OCISLY, to be the new temporary work area

While singing "He ain't heavy...he is my brother" (https://youtu.be/Jl5vi9ir49g)  ::)

@Mark

Luxury of posting here is everyone can be barge scientist till CameronD tells you how it really is  ;D I didn't get into measurements for this at all. 'Bollard box' is a technical term I just invented.. on edge there are these recessed bollards/cleats and wing covers them up. These 'boxes' are exactly where compartments meet as in the second image you posted. Using container width for reference will give more error, better would be to use whole barge length and see if hole is at 26% of it from stern. I think its close to it.

With your model what should be the length of these compartments? See if it matches to those.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/11/2016 11:13 pm
Random hypothetical question from nowhere;

If there were to be an F9 flight two days from now (surprise!) and assuming that SpaceX were willing to take the chance that one of the landing leg feet might step into the hole in the deck could ASDS OCISLY report for duty or is it legally grounded?  And if grounded is there appeal wiggle room since there is no endangerment and its such a badass program that the CG is already partway involved in?

@Mark ... With your model what should be the length of these compartments? See if it matches to those.
IIRC, the longitudinal placement of the bulkheads in my model was done with little regard to being anatomically correct as I was going for weight and (other than the front bulkhead which is on the sloping bow) the longitudinal placement has no affect on bulkhead area or weight.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 03/11/2016 11:32 pm
I take it you mean CG would insist OCISLY is repaired 100% before leaving port...
No... she could sail now if they wanted to... IMHO...

There are many stories (IIRC) of boats being patched seaworthy and going back to sea...
It was not damaged beyond use... since it relies on EIII to provide propulsion and guidance... 
My guess  ;) is CG considers if boat is a hazard or could easily become a hazard if taken out as is...

Of course I differ to those who know the regs better then me...   :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 03/11/2016 11:48 pm
Think of the Yorktown before the Battle of Midway.




Not sure this is quite as compelling...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AJW on 03/12/2016 02:43 am
In the overhead view, there is part of the stage under a white tarp.   Any clue if this was the engines and octaweb, or could these have remained below deck?  If so, they may need to open up the hole further to extract these parts before repairs can begin.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 03/12/2016 03:07 am
Random hypothetical question from nowhere;

If there were to be an F9 flight two days from now (surprise!) and assuming that SpaceX were willing to take the chance that one of the landing leg feet might step into the hole in the deck could ASDS OCISLY report for duty or is it legally grounded?  And if grounded is there appeal wiggle room since there is no endangerment and its such a badass program that the CG is already partway involved in?

I'd imagine that several of the trailers need replacing, as well as some of the cooling equipment for the Thrustmasters, etc., etc. before OCISLY would be considered capable of accomplishing a stage recovery.

However, I do recognize that your question is more about whether or not, short of wartime, a barge with a hole in its deck would be considered seaworthy than whether it could realistically be ready to depart in a day or so with all needful repairs to accomplish a stage recovery, a hole in the deck notwithstanding.  And I guess my answer to that is, well, it came back into port from 600 km out to sea, right?  I'd say that, while not happy, it was seaworthy... but without the Thrustmasters all working, and without replacing some of the apparently damaged electronics trailers, there would be far more risk than reward in a landing attempt.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 03/13/2016 08:26 pm
Hi fellow barge watchers/stalkers  :D

I am still making an model of the barge
(you can see the current state here : https://github.com/maximlevitsky/ASDS)

After last wave of images, when we found out about the hole, I found out that I didn't get the wings width correct, and I also don't know anymore the exact location of engine mounts.

If you happen to stalk the barge again, could you take a photo of the stern engine mounts directly from the side and/or from the above with drone? This will help me determine the distance between engine mount and wing.
Also obviously any closeups of the engines and engine mounts are very welcome.

Also if the barge is still in raised condition (with ballast tanks empty) I would like a closeup photo of exposed side (what appears to be white). I want to know what raised relief bars on the sides they did cut and what parts they didn't.

About the engines they are not exactly OD1000 - the autocad drawing doesn't match in the long tube section, it appears to be roughly ~10ft shorter, and not unformally conical.

You can see current status of my model here
https://twitter.com/maximlevitsky/status/706599126876684288
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 03/13/2016 09:27 pm
The barge earlier today.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 03/13/2016 09:53 pm
The barge earlier today.

Alas, the pictures aren't quite high enough resolution to resolve the deck thickness debate.
I am amused to say this of a 2000 pixel high image.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/13/2016 11:26 pm
I am still making an model of the barge
(you can see the current state here : https://github.com/maximlevitsky/ASDS)

I looked at the progress page.  I don't get it.  Why does your model of a barge look like a computer program?
edit: Now an hour or two later I look at it again and I see images of it.  Hmm, must be a browser freakout thing.

today.
Delightful, thank you.  Very resolutious.  Observations and thoughts -
- Today is a Sunday and they are busting it out.  It would seem that someone is motivated to have an ASDS as an available option for CRS-8.
- They have a substantial number of night work lights.  Looks like its urgent enough that they're working multiple shifts into the night
- There are enough LOX dewers to launch a (very) small rocket.  So they have a lot of initial cutting of scrap steel to do before the reconstruction starts.  Also gaseous oxygen and a rack of black cylinders which I assume is acetylene.
- Plenty of torch cut barge scrap in two piles (tan with singed edges) but nowhere near the quantity that I would expect based on the quantity of oxygen they have on hand.  More to come up?
- No aerospace scrap in sight.  Either SpaceX collected their scrap and moved it off before this crew started or it kept on going out the bottom.
- There is a fair sized load of fresh lumber on deck.  To make temporary holders for plate and various structures?
- Blast wall is cleaner than I remember it being and in the 6048 image you can see the clover.  You could make a song about the clover being still there after the rocket's red glare.

There is information V in L2 if you missed it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 03/14/2016 01:20 am
On the second image it's impressive to see the cut out section of deck and the attached steel I beam stringers the are attached to the underside. I'm still amazed by the power of the impact and can only imagine just how awesome the video must be of that, uh, event.

And six generators (welders) on deck along with work lights. Someone seems in an awful hurry to effect the repairs...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 03/14/2016 01:40 am
lol and how about that mine shaft type elevator basket! i guess they're lowering dudes into the hole to cut and weld.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 03/14/2016 11:10 am
A bit higher resolution. I think I neeed to invest in longer lens...

Go Quest is now parked elsewhere:

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 03/14/2016 11:51 am
Why so much wood on deck?  I thought the barge was all steel...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 03/14/2016 12:07 pm
Why so much wood on deck?  I thought the barge was all steel...

Probably temporary shoring while structural repairs are made; WWII warships used to keep stocks of timber aboard for the same purpose.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/14/2016 04:00 pm
How's things out JRTI way?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 03/14/2016 07:48 pm
Around 5 March INTL Freedom went near it then went to about a km west of Island Freeman possibly leaving JRTI there. It then berthed and then went straight out to San Diego at about 6.5 kn... Can't say if it had JRTI with it or not..on satellite imagery there are many barges around the spot it(tug) currently is.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/15/2016 02:10 am
I take it you mean CG would insist OCISLY is repaired 100% before leaving port...
No... she could sail now if they wanted to... IMHO...

There are many stories (IIRC) of boats being patched seaworthy and going back to sea...
It was not damaged beyond use... since it relies on EIII to provide propulsion and guidance... 
My guess  ;) is CG considers if boat is a hazard or could easily become a hazard if taken out as is...

Of course I differ to those who know the regs better then me...   :)

Depends who's watching, I suppose.  ;)

The point is:  (1) The barge is leased from McDonough Marine, who, it would seem from looking through the ABS records for their rather-extensive fleet, take pride in ensuring they always comply with their obligations.  (2) The barge has then been heavily modified and re-surveyed and USCG approved again in accordance with the regs, so it would surprise many if SpaceX suddenly cut corners (pun intended) with the repairs this time around.

As mentioned above, it looks like the they've done some internal structural damage that needs fixing.  Sure, they could patch it up and head to sea right away if needed - but what if something went wrong with the repairs in some way and the ASDS either (God forbid) sank or one of their on-board crew was injured?   It doesn't look like a big fix to me and I wouldn't think they'd want to take the risk whilst the world was watching on.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/15/2016 02:15 am
Why so much wood on deck?  I thought the barge was all steel...

Probably temporary shoring while structural repairs are made; WWII warships used to keep stocks of timber aboard for the same purpose.

I would only get worried if they start loading bags of cement.. since, traditionally, that's what's used to fix hull leaks - and cover a multitude of sins.  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/15/2016 08:24 pm
The barge earlier today.

Alas, the pictures aren't quite high enough resolution to resolve the deck thickness debate.


I just asked a source at McDonough Marine who told me the deck plate is 9/16" thick, so we won't have to debate that point any further.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edkyle99 on 03/15/2016 09:32 pm
Think of the Yorktown before the Battle of Midway.

Not sure this is quite as compelling...
And, since Yorktown was sunk during the battle, we don't want the same result!

 - Ed kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/16/2016 01:17 am
I just asked a source at McDonough Marine who told me the deck plate is 9/16" thick, so we won't have to debate that point any further.  ;)

Now that's a solid report.  Case closed forever.  Thanks.

It seems as if someone else, a newer person IIRC, solved another longstanding ASDS mystery a few weeks back by just simply picking up the phone and calling the authority.  I can't recall or find it, I think it was the Eastern Range or Coast Guard??

Given these two stepwise advancements in ASDS science it seems to me that rather than filling up hundreds of additional pages of NSF server space with more speculations, calculations, and educated guesses we just need to list our questions and call the sources for answers.  Perhaps we need to print up some cool looking NSF credentials so we look official doing it. ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/16/2016 02:22 am
Quote
It seems as if someone else, a newer person IIRC, solved another longstanding ASDS mystery a few weeks back by just simply picking up the phone and calling the authority.  I can't recall or find it, I think it was the Eastern Range or Coast Guard??

That was someone who contacted the 45th Space Wing to ask about the boat intrusion in the hazard area. Who knew you could get answers just by asking the right person?  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: NovaSilisko on 03/16/2016 02:33 am
Given these two stepwise advancements in ASDS science it seems to me that rather than filling up hundreds of additional pages of NSF server space with more speculations, calculations, and educated guesses we just need to list our questions and call the sources for answers.  Perhaps we need to print up some cool looking NSF credentials so we look official doing it. ;D

That would be so very nice. It gets really hard to follow actual information sometimes with all of the unceasing arguments that well up everywhere.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: brettreds2k on 03/16/2016 12:15 pm
I figured by now they would have released the video of the landing attempt.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rocket Science on 03/16/2016 12:42 pm
I just asked a source at McDonough Marine who told me the deck plate is 9/16" thick, so we won't have to debate that point any further.  ;)

Now that's a solid report.  Case closed forever.  Thanks.

It seems as if someone else, a newer person IIRC, solved another longstanding ASDS mystery a few weeks back by just simply picking up the phone and calling the authority.  I can't recall or find it, I think it was the Eastern Range or Coast Guard??

Given these two stepwise advancements in ASDS science it seems to me that rather than filling up hundreds of additional pages of NSF server space with more speculations, calculations, and educated guesses we just need to list our questions and call the sources for answers.  Perhaps we need to print up some cool looking NSF credentials so we look official doing it. ;D
Or start up your own website... "Barge Stalkers United"...BSU ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 03/16/2016 01:54 pm
I figured by now they would have released the video of the landing attempt.

Yeah.  Considering how long it's been, I'm seriously doubting we'll ever see it.

Maybe it happens so fast that there's really not much to see.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: clegg78 on 03/16/2016 02:11 pm
I would bet we catch a glimpse in some presentation at some point by Elon or other management from SpaceX.  They've done that in the past, where we never saw video until it was at some speech they gave.   I am guessing its pretty dramatic video, adn they want a success before they show it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MattMason on 03/16/2016 02:56 pm
I figured by now they would have released the video of the landing attempt.

Yeah.  Considering how long it's been, I'm seriously doubting we'll ever see it.

Maybe it happens so fast that there's really not much to see.

And they're trying to save some surprise for the SpaceX Christmas Party Blooper Reel. You could put these attempts to music. They'll provide their own percussion.

But I might agree. It was a night launch and the speed that the octoweb did to core-sample the barge like that probably just appears as an immediate +5 Vorpal RUD of Kaboomy Goodness.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 03/16/2016 08:23 pm
Is the Octaweb itself so weighty that it would be responsible for the damage alone; or is the mass of the engines as much / more of a factor?

Certainly to tear 9/16" plate there's got to have been a fair impact - the footage would be interesting; and might cast a bit of light on whether the impact speed tor the ensuing explosion caused most of the damage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 03/16/2016 09:50 pm
Is the Octaweb itself so weighty that it would be responsible for the damage alone; or is the mass of the engines as much / more of a factor?

Certainly to tear 9/16" plate there's got to have been a fair impact - the footage would be interesting; and might cast a bit of light on whether the impact speed tor the ensuing explosion caused most of the damage.

Since several stages have blown up on the barges, seemingly without leaving a dent, the hole was punched by the speed of impact.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/16/2016 10:05 pm
Is the Octaweb itself so weighty that it would be responsible for the damage alone; or is the mass of the engines as much / more of a factor?

Certainly to tear 9/16" plate there's got to have been a fair impact - the footage would be interesting; and might cast a bit of light on whether the impact speed tor the ensuing explosion caused most of the damage.

Well, we know from past attempts that the kaboom part of the landing does very little damage to anything other than the stage itself.. but that heavy bits impacting at speed do cause the odd puncture (remember the one in the side of the hull?)

Ignoring the deck for a sec and considering the damage to the bulkhead underneath - likely a 9/16" mild steel plate on edge with a 6" (my guess) steel "I"-shaped deck beam running across the top which was sheared completely upon impact - I think it's fair to surmise the impact was caused by something solid (like the octaweb) travelling at higher-than-landing-approach speed..

As others have said, I don't think the video would show much other than a ball of light decending rapidly followed by a kaboom to finish.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: thor1872 on 03/17/2016 02:13 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJNPUqHFdLg
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4aqh3w/ocisly_today_look_at_the_huge_hole_on_the_left/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/17/2016 03:56 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJNPUqHFdLg
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4aqh3w/ocisly_today_look_at_the_huge_hole_on_the_left/

That's not just any scrap - that's a piece of the deck!!  :o

You can clearly see the beams spaced a foot or so apart and part of a deck girder.  Like this example (out of the Barge Rules):
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/17/2016 04:50 pm
The deck piece being moved in the video looks much bigger than the original hole made by the rocket. The impact must have damaged deck beams adjacent to the hole.

Too bad we can't get a drone's-eye view now, because the hole after they cut that piece out must be much larger.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: GeneBelcher on 03/17/2016 04:55 pm
They still haven't raised that one thruster. Wonder what's up with that.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: litton4 on 03/17/2016 05:48 pm
Think of the Yorktown before the Battle of Midway.

Not sure this is quite as compelling...
And, since Yorktown was sunk during the battle, we don't want the same result!

 - Ed kyle

That reminds me of a quote I read from a WW II US seaman, later in the war, when UK Aircraft Carriers were deployed in the Pacific Theater.

After a kamikaze attack, where a British Carrier had been struck on the flight deck, and just carried on with operations:

"When a US carrier is struck by a kamikaze, it's back to the 'States for 6 months R&R. When a limey carrier is struck, it's a case of 'sweepers, man your brooms'. "

British carriers had reinforced, armour plate flight decks........

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/17/2016 06:19 pm
The deck piece being moved in the video looks much bigger than the original hole made by the rocket. The impact must have damaged deck beams adjacent to the hole.

Too bad we can't get a drone's-eye view now, because the hole after they cut that piece out must be much larger.

Worse yet, the lifted piece looked to be from only one quadrant of the hole area.

Looking more closely a 2nd time full screen, there are quite a few boards covering an area much larger than the original hole, and still a larger actual hole section uncovered, although some or all of the boards may be there just to protect undamaged deck from the machinery, not to keep people or machinery from falling inside.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/17/2016 06:29 pm
They still haven't raised that one thruster. Wonder what's up with that.

Could be just an extra measure to keep the ASDS stabilized, since that thruster is too far from the hole to think it was damaged.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: robertross on 03/17/2016 07:17 pm
They still haven't raised that one thruster. Wonder what's up with that.

Could be just an extra measure to keep the ASDS stabilized, since that thruster is too far from the hole to think it was damaged.

No, but the cooler(s) on top of the containers sustained damage, and possibly some hydraulic lines. They might be waiting on technical help or parts to get that fixed before testing/operating it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/17/2016 08:51 pm
Someone on Reddit says he'll be down there Sunday with a drone to take aerial video, so maybe we'll see some footage from him this weekend.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/17/2016 09:29 pm
The deck piece being moved in the video looks much bigger than the original hole made by the rocket. The impact must have damaged deck beams adjacent to the hole.

Too bad we can't get a drone's-eye view now, because the hole after they cut that piece out must be much larger.

Worse yet, the lifted piece looked to be from only one quadrant of the hole area.

Looking more closely a 2nd time full screen, there are quite a few boards covering an area much larger than the original hole, and still a larger actual hole section uncovered, although some or all of the boards may be there just to protect undamaged deck from the machinery, not to keep people or machinery from falling inside.

That all makes sense.  The octaweb is a fairly large chunk of metal, and, at the speed it was likely going to punch a hole like that, the 'unseen' damage to structural supports like girders and deck beams could be pretty extensive.

Even if a beam is only "bent a bit" it would still have to be cut out and replaced because there'd be no way to straighten it in-situ without stressing something else and, quite frankly, it's the easiest/cheapest way to do it.  Other sections of deck might also be removed to gain better access to the part they need to fix.

In summary:  What you're looking at is the first stage of a re-build of a section of the barge deck and substructure from the inside out.  We'll know when they're nearly done when the new deck plate(s) arrive.  McD Marine likely not only know about it, but insisted it be done this way - all paid for by the insurers.


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 03/17/2016 09:34 pm

In summary:  What you're looking at is the first stage of a re-build of a section of the barge deck and substructure from the inside out.  We'll know when they're nearly done when the new deck plate(s) arrive.  McD Marine likely not only know about it, but insisted it be done this way - all paid for by the insurers.


After which, insurance premiums will rise for either SpaceX (if they insure directly) or McD Marine (who will pass along costs to SpaceX through their leasing contract). All part of the risks of trying something new.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/17/2016 11:08 pm
Quote
In summary:  What you're looking at is the first stage of a re-build of a section of the barge deck and substructure from the inside out.  We'll know when they're nearly done when the new deck plate(s) arrive.  McD Marine likely not only know about it, but insisted it be done this way - all paid for by the insurers.

Also, my source at McDonough tells me ABS is supervising when McDonough people are not on site, so ABS will have a say too in the extent/quality of repairs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/17/2016 11:56 pm
Quote
In summary:  What you're looking at is the first stage of a re-build of a section of the barge deck and substructure from the inside out.  We'll know when they're nearly done when the new deck plate(s) arrive.  McD Marine likely not only know about it, but insisted it be done this way - all paid for by the insurers.

Also, my source at McDonough tells me ABS is supervising when McDonough people are not on site, so ABS will have a say too in the extent/quality of repairs.

I should hope so!  That's a good move.  It's in their own best interest that ABS are okay with the repairs.. 'cause if they aren't, then for sure both the USCG and their insurers won't be either.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/18/2016 12:01 am
After which, insurance premiums will rise for either SpaceX (if they insure directly) or McD Marine (who will pass along costs to SpaceX through their leasing contract). All part of the risks of trying something new.

Call me on it if you must, and nobody likes an I-told-you-so, but I posted trying to warn against the idea of landing on the barge, and now all this for what, 1 extra minute of data? They could have landed in the ocean and still have had an extra 50 seconds of data, and a test of re-entry.

I retract my later suggestion that an attempt might be understandable with 2 more SES launches planned for this year. This particular SES launch would not have set the precedent I thought, unless everyone's hoping to be able to give an orbital boost to the next 2 as well.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/18/2016 12:07 am
After which, insurance premiums will rise for either SpaceX (if they insure directly) or McD Marine (who will pass along costs to SpaceX through their leasing contract). All part of the risks of trying something new.

Call me on it if you must, and nobody likes an I-told-you-so, but I posted trying to warn against the idea of landing on the barge, and now all this for what, 1 extra minute of data? They could have landed in the ocean and still have had an extra 50 seconds of data, and a test of re-entry.

You're right, of course.. and SpaceX must be kicking themselves for trying it now, given the extent of the damage although they've got a few weeks to fix the ASDS before the next flight.

Perhaps they were mighty confident it would (at least) soft land??

EDIT:  I suppose one thing this DOES demonstrate is that, even with super-sized thrusters, they can't get the ASDS out of the way if the stage is coming in too hot..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 03/18/2016 12:10 am
The deck piece being moved in the video looks much bigger than the original hole made by the rocket. The impact must have damaged deck beams adjacent to the hole.

Too bad we can't get a drone's-eye view now, because the hole after they cut that piece out must be much larger.

Worse yet, the lifted piece looked to be from only one quadrant of the hole area.

Looking more closely a 2nd time full screen, there are quite a few boards covering an area much larger than the original hole, and still a larger actual hole section uncovered, although some or all of the boards may be there just to protect undamaged deck from the machinery, not to keep people or machinery from falling inside.


I don't necessarily interpret that as a sign of an enlarged damage area.  It means they aren't just patching the hole, they're replacing the rectangular plates that were damaged as entire units.  This gives them standard dimensions and framework segments to work with, and ensures that there are no hidden weak areas.


It's like replacing a windshield rather than just filling a crack in it.  You get a better repair.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Okie_Steve on 03/18/2016 12:57 am
After which, insurance premiums will rise for either SpaceX (if they insure directly) or McD Marine (who will pass along costs to SpaceX through their leasing contract). All part of the risks of trying something new.

Call me on it if you must, and nobody likes an I-told-you-so, but I posted trying to warn against the idea of landing on the barge, and now all this for what, 1 extra minute of data? They could have landed in the ocean and still have had an extra 50 seconds of data, and a test of re-entry.

You're right, of course.. and SpaceX must be kicking themselves for trying it now, given the extent of the damage although they've got a few weeks to fix the ASDS before the next flight.

Perhaps they were mighty confident it would (at least) soft land??

EDIT:  I suppose one thing this DOES demonstrate is that, even with super-sized thrusters, they can't get the ASDS out of the way if the stage is coming in too hot..

actually I think they expected it to break up in reentry, but if it made it far enough to hit and cause damage that is just the cost of doing business in a test.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/18/2016 01:10 am
After which, insurance premiums will rise for either SpaceX (if they insure directly) or McD Marine (who will pass along costs to SpaceX through their leasing contract). All part of the risks of trying something new.

Call me on it if you must, and nobody likes an I-told-you-so, but I posted trying to warn against the idea of landing on the barge, and now all this for what, 1 extra minute of data? They could have landed in the ocean and still have had an extra 50 seconds of data, and a test of re-entry.

Gotta give them credit for not being afraid to fail spectacularly, though. Go big, or go home!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/18/2016 01:32 am
You're right, of course..
Good to know someone agrees and I'm not just being silly. All I saw in posts after the launch was, "Well, they got data."

Quote
Perhaps they were mighty confident it would (at least) soft land??
The word was that SpaceX themselves had zero confidence in the success of this landing, which became less obvious with the growing enthusiasm from others.

Quote
EDIT:  I suppose one thing this DOES demonstrate is that, even with super-sized thrusters, they can't get the ASDS out of the way if the stage is coming in too hot..
Isn't the rocket what's supposed to get out of the way? I think the ASDS positioning system is only set up to keep the target in one place, and the rocket carries some guidance to redirect itself.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/18/2016 01:36 am
[actually I think they expected it to break up in reentry, but if it made it far enough to hit and cause damage that is just the cost of doing business in a test.

Well if they expected it to break up on re-entry, wouldn't that be an even better reason to get the (poor little insignificant fragile) ASDS well away from the IIP??

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/18/2016 01:42 am
Quote
Isn't the rocket what's supposed to get out of the way? I think the ASDS positioning system is only set up to keep the target in one place, and the rocket carries some guidance to redirect itself.

The stage has no redirect capability. It has one programmed target, and it does its darndest to get there regardless.

The only "divert" option is to send the ASDS away from the landing zone, in case weather is too bad to attempt landing, for example. That happened once, during the storm that damaged the containers with 30-foot waves, IIRC.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/18/2016 01:44 am
EDIT:  I suppose one thing this DOES demonstrate is that, even with super-sized thrusters, they can't get the ASDS out of the way if the stage is coming in too hot..
Isn't the rocket what's supposed to get out of the way? I think the ASDS positioning system is only set up to keep the target in one place, and the rocket carries some guidance to redirect itself.

You mean to say, perhaps they were trying to get the rocket to get out of the way... and

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/d1/d11d1c516380d1c6ed3da36170911e6e4c7c3683a178d1573d9f56f12fe6a193.jpg)

 ;) ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: bstrong on 03/18/2016 01:49 am
One of the many things they're learning is how quickly an ASDS can be patched up and returned to service after sustaining a variety of different types of damage, figuring out which contractors can be relied upon to do get things done quickly, etc. This will ultimately be an important input into an analysis of how large a fleet they need to maintain on each coast, which will be one of the big cost drivers for recovery operations.

So, they're definitely learning things from putting the ASDS out there every time.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/18/2016 01:56 am
One of the many things they're learning is how quickly an ASDS can be patched up and returned to service after sustaining a variety of different types of damage, figuring out which contractors can be relied upon to do get things done quickly, etc. This will ultimately be an important input into an analysis of how large a fleet they need to maintain on each coast, which will be one of the big cost drivers for recovery operations.

So, they're definitely learning things from putting the ASDS out there every time.

SpaceX hasn't seemed to have any problems getting the right fleets together and quickly.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/18/2016 01:59 am
Gotta give them credit for not being afraid to fail spectacularly, though. Go big, or go home!

I just went big disagreeing with the actions of a company with over 4,000 employees, and I'm already at home.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/18/2016 02:01 am
Gotta give them credit for not being afraid to fail spectacularly, though. Go big, or go home!

I just went big disagreeing with the actions of a company with over 4,000 employees, and I'm already at home.

Well, like Gwynne Shotwell said of Grasshopper/F9R Dev, if they didn't crash, they weren't trying hard enough.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/18/2016 02:07 am
Well, like Gwynne Shotwell said of Grasshopper/F9R Dev, if they didn't crash, they weren't trying hard enough.  ;)

Well, right about now, McDonough Marine are probably wondering why they agreed to lease one of their newest barges to SpaceX only to have them go at it with oxy-torches and welders..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/18/2016 02:11 am
Well, like Gwynne Shotwell said of Grasshopper/F9R Dev, if they didn't crash, they weren't trying hard enough.  ;)

Well, right about now, McDonough Marine are probably wondering why they agreed to lease one of their newest barges to SpaceX only to have them go at it with oxy-torches and welders..

Being handsomely paid on a long-term lease, plus SpaceX pays for repairs? They're smiling all the way to the bank...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 03/18/2016 02:23 am
My initial take on the "not expected to succeed" statement while also sending the ASDS out(mixed messages), was that they did have a reasonable expectation that it would work(or not fail in an uncharacteristically spectacular way) but wanted to manage expectations on the public side, especially given recent history.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AJW on 03/18/2016 03:35 am
I am still expecting to hear that the 9 merlins and octaweb are below the deck.  The hole is nearly the size of the octaweb, so there is reason to believe that the octaweb fully penetrated the upper deck.  The decking is bent inwards, so there is no indication that the octaweb exited through the entry wound, nor is there any reason that it should.  The stage exploding above deck would only force it further in and not pull it out.   If the octaweb had punched through both the upper and lower decks I would expect the repair to require a dry-dock.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/18/2016 03:42 am
I don't see the damage being that bad in the big scheme.  I'm gonna guess it at $250k to fix.  Might be off by a factor of 10 on the high end but $250k feels good to me.  Actually, it seems likely that the price of this barge fixing is lower than the price to replace equipment at the ends as we've previously seen done.  Now as long as I'm guessing and speculating, what did SpaceX think the odds of a good landing were?  Hmm, 1%, 0.01   .  So what is the value of a returned stage?  $40M?  Less if its damaged from the high energy SES-9 entry, more if you consider the research value and the timing of having that research knowledge earlier rather than later in the development of downstream products.  So a 1% chance of re-collecting a $40M asset has an expected value of $400k and the damage incurred is less than that.  Sounds like they made a good bet. 

Has anyone considered the possibility that they are constructing a missile silo or launch tube rather than repairing?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rocket Science on 03/18/2016 03:47 am
After which, insurance premiums will rise for either SpaceX (if they insure directly) or McD Marine (who will pass along costs to SpaceX through their leasing contract). All part of the risks of trying something new.

Call me on it if you must, and nobody likes an I-told-you-so, but I posted trying to warn against the idea of landing on the barge, and now all this for what, 1 extra minute of data? They could have landed in the ocean and still have had an extra 50 seconds of data, and a test of re-entry.

You're right, of course.. and SpaceX must be kicking themselves for trying it now, given the extent of the damage although they've got a few weeks to fix the ASDS before the next flight.

Perhaps they were mighty confident it would (at least) soft land??

EDIT:  I suppose one thing this DOES demonstrate is that, even with super-sized thrusters, they can't get the ASDS out of the way if the stage is coming in too hot..
Perhaps they will/can fire the FTS next time at the last moments prior to impact to reduce damage if telemetry indicates a very hard landing is about to occur...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/18/2016 03:57 am
If the octaweb had punched through both the upper and lower decks I would expect the repair to require a dry-dock.

1. There is no "upper and lower decks".. once through the "upper deck" you're heading for the bottom plating.
2. They're already prepping for damage repair by cutting out damaged sections of the deck - no dry dock is required. ..and it doesn't appear to be leaking either, since they're no longer pumping any water out.

FWIW, I would guess that they've been mighty lucky to hit that bulkhead square on like that.  If the stage had gone straight into the bilges, they might have damaged the ribs/hull stringers which would be a much more difficult fix indeed.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/18/2016 04:01 am
After which, insurance premiums will rise for either SpaceX (if they insure directly) or McD Marine (who will pass along costs to SpaceX through their leasing contract). All part of the risks of trying something new.

Call me on it if you must, and nobody likes an I-told-you-so, but I posted trying to warn against the idea of landing on the barge, and now all this for what, 1 extra minute of data? They could have landed in the ocean and still have had an extra 50 seconds of data, and a test of re-entry.

You're right, of course.. and SpaceX must be kicking themselves for trying it now, given the extent of the damage although they've got a few weeks to fix the ASDS before the next flight.

Perhaps they were mighty confident it would (at least) soft land??

EDIT:  I suppose one thing this DOES demonstrate is that, even with super-sized thrusters, they can't get the ASDS out of the way if the stage is coming in too hot..
Perhaps they will/can fire the FTS next time at the last moments prior to impact to reduce damage if telemetry indicates a very hard landing is about to occur...

This has been brought up before. Not possible. Only the MFCO can issue a destruct command. Also, IIRC, stage 1 FTS gets safed during ascent when it gets far enough downrange.

Sometime down the road, autonomous FTS will be implemented by the Range, at which point something like what you suggest would be feasible. But still unlikely to be implemented by SpaceX, because the risk of a false positive means loss of a stage that might have survived.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AJW on 03/18/2016 05:05 am
If the octaweb had punched through both the upper and lower decks I would expect the repair to require a dry-dock.

1. There is no "upper and lower decks".. once through the "upper deck" you're heading for the bottom plating.
2. They're already prepping for damage repair by cutting out damaged sections of the deck - no dry dock is required. ..and it doesn't appear to be leaking either, since they're no longer pumping any water out.

FWIW, I would guess that they've been mighty lucky to hit that bulkhead square on like that.  If the stage had gone straight into the bilges, they might have damaged the ribs/hull stringers which would be a much more difficult fix indeed.

We appear to be in agreement that that the hull plate does not appear to have been breached.   The question remains unanswered, where did the octaweb and merlins go?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 03/18/2016 05:24 am
We appear to be in agreement that that the hull plate does not appear to have been breached.   The question remains unanswered, where did the octaweb and merlins go?

I strongly suspect that most of the Merlins and octaweb ended up directly below the hole (in a non-assembled condition) but without damaging the bottom. The reason I suspect no significant damage to the hull bottom is the ASDS was most likely ballasted during the landing, so the chamber the Merlins and Octaweb entered was most likely half full of water (which would have cushioned the impact and protected the hull bottom). 

This could also explain the list noticed when OCISLY entered port; OCISLY was listing away from the hole, so they IMHO they likely, before the tow back, pumped out that chamber to check for hull bottom damage.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 03/18/2016 05:25 am
If the octaweb had punched through both the upper and lower decks I would expect the repair to require a dry-dock.

1. There is no "upper and lower decks".. once through the "upper deck" you're heading for the bottom plating.
2. They're already prepping for damage repair by cutting out damaged sections of the deck - no dry dock is required. ..and it doesn't appear to be leaking either, since they're no longer pumping any water out.

FWIW, I would guess that they've been mighty lucky to hit that bulkhead square on like that.  If the stage had gone straight into the bilges, they might have damaged the ribs/hull stringers which would be a much more difficult fix indeed.

We appear to be in agreement that that the hull plate does not appear to have been breached.   The question remains unanswered, where did the octaweb and merlins go?


I thought we saw portions of at least one Merlin powerhead sitting on the deck when it arrived.  Considering their extended position and relatively loose connection to the octoweb, it's possible that many of them were hurled overboard.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/18/2016 05:56 am
We appear to be in agreement that that the hull plate does not appear to have been breached.   The question remains unanswered, where did the octaweb and merlins go?

The octaweb is probably still down the hole... although now that they've cut the deck away, they should have clear access to go fish it out. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/18/2016 07:36 am
Octaweb is (was?) probably under the white tarp, I would think.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 03/18/2016 09:29 am
All I'm seeing is a hole that needs to be welded up. Not a biggie. Steel is cheap, labour is cheap.

$250k to repair this? Cannot see it myself. More like $50k at most. Two weeks work for 4 workers, plus steel. Small change for SpaceX, probably less than the cost of having it loiter out at sea waiting for the stage.

Average salary for a welder, is $36,720 (2014 prices). For 4 welders, per week that only $2825. Steel is about $450/ton.  Add on a load of inspection fees, you still have 'not very much money needed'

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hankelow8 on 03/18/2016 10:19 am
All I'm seeing is a hole that needs to be welded up. Not a biggie. Steel is cheap, labour is cheap.

$250k to repair this? Cannot see it myself. More like $50k at most. Two weeks work for 4 workers, plus steel. Small change for SpaceX, probably less than the cost of having it loiter out at sea waiting for the stage.

Average salary for a welder, is $36,720 (2014 prices). For 4 welders, per week that only $2825. Steel is about $450/ton.  Add on a load of inspection fees, you still have 'not very much money needed'

Although I do not know how much a welder in the USA gets paid per year, I think $37 k is far to low. There must also have been specialist work needed for cutting out the sections around the impact zone.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 03/18/2016 12:26 pm
All I'm seeing is a hole that needs to be welded up. Not a biggie. Steel is cheap, labour is cheap.

$250k to repair this? Cannot see it myself. More like $50k at most. Two weeks work for 4 workers, plus steel. Small change for SpaceX, probably less than the cost of having it loiter out at sea waiting for the stage.

Average salary for a welder, is $36,720 (2014 prices). For 4 welders, per week that only $2825. Steel is about $450/ton.  Add on a load of inspection fees, you still have 'not very much money needed'

Although I do not know how much a welder in the USA gets paid per year, I think $37 k is far to low. There must also have been specialist work needed for cutting out the sections around the impact zone.

Specialist work? Why? I could do it with a oxy torch or plasma cutter, and I am a software guy (who spends time in the garage)

That figure came from a USA webpage about USA welding salaries from 2014 It does vary from State to State, and what particular skill set is involved.

But this sort of welding is basic ship building stuff. Not sure why people think this is such an issue. It really isn't rocket science.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/18/2016 01:20 pm
Its not just welders that have their hand in the pay stream.  Six welding machines were delivered.  The material handling lifts were rented and brought there.  Oxygen and acetylene.  The company that Spacex hired that employs the welders and rented the equipment.  Purchasing people that found the materials.  Steel to ABS-A probably costs more than the "bulk steel" rate.  Freight charges.  SpaceX employees time.  ABS.  Naval engineers.  Unballasting with rented pumps and re-ballasting.  Oil containment booms.  Divers if only for inspection. That's the obvious stuff.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 03/18/2016 01:25 pm
A welder who is damn good at welding overhead and in tight spaces commands a premium salary...
You can't teach it either... it's a skill learned from actually doing it in real life situations... for years...
A damn good welder asks for 6 figures annual and gets it from companies who values his skills...
Mainly so he can teach others and supervise their work... just saying...  ;)

On edit later...
I agree with others on the $250K cost estimate to fix this... all in costs verses it never happened...
Was just saying the annual paycheck of a welding supervisor that knows his chit is in the 100K+ range
Different skill set needed to do a repair job verses assy welding in a production setting...
For that yes the 35~40K quoted is ballpark...
For repetitive high quality welding in production settings... a robot will be used as the cost can be spread over a production run...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/18/2016 02:12 pm
I agree this isn't average welding work and that all the stuff listed by OxCartMark raises costs.... I'm still thinking 250K is a reasonable estimate here...  we did our usual good job of ballparking this.... and that it was a good bet for SpaceX. SpaceX also know that even a direct hit can make a good hole but not sink the barge, right? How much worse could it be?

Let's not go TOO far down the hole of how much welders and steel cost, though, ok?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kevinof on 03/18/2016 02:20 pm
No way this is a 250K job. I would be surprised if it was anything more than 50k. Steel, even high quality stuff, is cheap this days. Transport is cheap. A welder for a weeks work is cheap. Welding steel plate an even repairing beams is not a complex task (I've built boats before) and doesn't require a lot of finesse. Just a good plan and a decent weld.


I agree this isn't average welding work and that all the stuff listed by OxCartMark raises costs.... I'm still thinking 250K is a reasonable estimate here...  we did our usual good job of ballparking this.... and that it was a good bet for SpaceX. SpaceX also know that even a direct hit can make a good hole but not sink the barge, right? How much worse could it be?

Let's not go TOO far down the hole of how much welders and steel cost, though, ok?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/18/2016 02:29 pm
Glad we all agree SpaceX will not go bankrupt repairing the barge. The only question is, will it be ready in 2 weeks?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 03/18/2016 02:36 pm
Will it be ready in 2 weeks... I think so...
Will not surprise me if it not all done including painting in 1 week (next Friday) in fact...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sghill on 03/18/2016 02:36 pm
We appear to be in agreement that that the hull plate does not appear to have been breached.   The question remains unanswered, where did the octaweb and merlins go?

I strongly suspect that most of the Merlins and octaweb ended up directly below the hole (in a non-assembled condition) but without damaging the bottom. The reason I suspect no significant damage to the hull bottom is the ASDS was most likely ballasted during the landing, so the chamber the Merlins and Octaweb entered was most likely half full of water (which would have cushioned the impact and protected the hull bottom). 

This could also explain the list noticed when OCISLY entered port; OCISLY was listing away from the hole, so they IMHO they likely, before the tow back, pumped out that chamber to check for hull bottom damage.

My take on the list was that they lowered that end intentionally to get water and toxic to run off away from the hole.  My evidence for this is the green firehouse and sprayer duct taped to the step ladder in the first photos. The fire supression equipment was still in place, so they were obviously hosing down the deck for an extended period to flush off the toxic liquids to have jury rigged that setup, and they wouldn't have wanted all that waste to get flushed into the hole, where they would have to pump it out before reaching port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 03/18/2016 02:42 pm
Perhaps they will/can fire the FTS next time at the last moments prior to impact to reduce damage if telemetry indicates a very hard landing is about to occur...
Rather pointless. Since the Octoweb and support structure will have the same ballistic impact on the deck. AFAIK the FTS cuts the motors and pops open the tankage, doesn't effect the structural integrity of the core below the tankage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/18/2016 03:08 pm
No way this is a 250K job. I would be surprised if it was anything more than 50k. Steel, even high quality stuff, is cheap this days. Transport is cheap. A welder for a weeks work is cheap. Welding steel plate an even repairing beams is not a complex task (I've built boats before) and doesn't require a lot of finesse. Just a good plan and a decent weld.

250K is a reasonable (95% confidence ??? I'm guessing here, didn't do rigorous analysis)  upper bound, how about that?

My take on the list was that they lowered that end intentionally to get water and toxic to run off away from the hole.  My evidence for this is the green firehouse and sprayer duct taped to the step ladder in the first photos. The fire supression equipment was still in place, so they were obviously hosing down the deck for an extended period to flush off the toxic liquids to have jury rigged that setup, and they wouldn't have wanted all that waste to get flushed into the hole, where they would have to pump it out before reaching port.

Not to be concern trolling, but will Greenpeace eventually notice all this and complain about hosing toxic stuff off into the ocean?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: steveholtam on 03/18/2016 03:48 pm
The first stages with unspent fuel all fall back into the ocean normally anyway.  These just get smashed on a barge first.  And perhaps the ensuing explosion burns up many of the toxin that would normally get released into the ocean from a typical splashdown and breakup? 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/18/2016 03:50 pm
Nate_Trost reporting that a barge landing is still "Plan A" for CRS-8:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39350.msg1505239#msg1505239
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/18/2016 04:14 pm
The first stages with unspent fuel all fall back into the ocean normally anyway.  These just get smashed on a barge first.  And perhaps the ensuing explosion burns up many of the toxin that would normally get released into the ocean from a typical splashdown and breakup? 

You're being way too logical. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 03/18/2016 04:39 pm
Nate_Trost reporting that a barge landing is still "Plan A" for CRS-8:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39350.msg1505239#msg1505239

I thought so... been saying RTLS will be rare for some time now...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hankelow8 on 03/18/2016 04:52 pm


I have just checked what the average American wage is and it comes in at 44K, if this is correct I cannot see any skilled welder working for 36K.

I would think (depending on damage) there could be support structure that will need to be replaced. Who knows  what is needed under the barge surface decking, we do not have Super Man eyes, but it does look like it's not just a patch and weld job.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/18/2016 04:56 pm
Nate_Trost reporting that a barge landing is still "Plan A" for CRS-8:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39350.msg1505239#msg1505239

Loren Grush says so, too:

Quote
James Stewart  ‏@JamesStewart97  2h2 hours ago United Kingdom
@lorengrush have @SpaceX confirmed that they're going for a first stage drone ship landing rather than a RTLS?
 
Loren GrushVerified account
‏@lorengrush
@JamesStewart97 Yep! Got confirmation this morning
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 03/18/2016 05:05 pm
Just adding this old one to better illustrate my previous post on topic (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1502618#msg1502618)

A good look at beam that aligns with 'Bollard Boxes' on sides of barge. The hole is exactly on it and damages two compartments, also you can see it is one of the stronger portion on barge. Attached one is from 303 and not the same region.
Source: http://www.worldmarine.com/projects/barges

Octaweb is (was?) probably under the white tarp, I would think.

I think it is top of stage minus interstage. Didn't blow away possibly due to less pressure, crumpled and got stuck between wing and thruster mount.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: symbios on 03/18/2016 06:24 pm
Just want to add my two cents to this.

I'm currently building a 55 fot steel trawler yacht. All the steel and work on the entire hull with peripherals does not cost 250k.

If you can not patch a 10 feet hole for less, get a new contractor.

No way this is a 250K job. I would be surprised if it was anything more than 50k. Steel, even high quality stuff, is cheap this days. Transport is cheap. A welder for a weeks work is cheap. Welding steel plate an even repairing beams is not a complex task (I've built boats before) and doesn't require a lot of finesse. Just a good plan and a decent weld.


I agree this isn't average welding work and that all the stuff listed by OxCartMark raises costs.... I'm still thinking 250K is a reasonable estimate here...  we did our usual good job of ballparking this.... and that it was a good bet for SpaceX. SpaceX also know that even a direct hit can make a good hole but not sink the barge, right? How much worse could it be?

Let's not go TOO far down the hole of how much welders and steel cost, though, ok?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gadgetmind on 03/18/2016 06:27 pm
And for another data point, it would cost ULA about $2.5 million to fix this.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarsInMyLifetime on 03/18/2016 07:08 pm
Another metric for comparing costs is to compare this repair to the cost of a first stage. We know a full stack is priced to customers at about $60 million, so let me pull a WAG of a $20 million internal cost of a stage--this is just a guesstimate used for the sake of magnitude. Was the cost of fixing the hole close to the cost of a first stage? Not by a long shot. Was the risk worth accepting in order to recoup the ~$20 million cost of a successfully returned stage? By all means. Is some of the accounting for this work hidden in R&D or contingency funds rather than direct cost against the mission budget? Undoubtedly. So the way I look at it, whether this repair job cost $50K vs $250K is a moot point; in the bigger picture, costs of this nature are worth embracing repeatedly for the sake of getting to a sustained level of stage recovery and an improved amortization rate on launch costs. I happen to think they are very close to working out the systemic impedances.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/18/2016 07:21 pm
OCISLY was listing away from the hole

Was it determined as fact that the ASDS came in listing away from the hole? I couldn't see the list then, and now what's obvious in the latest video is that there's a list towards the hole. Seems to me that means two things:

1) they didn't find any hull plate damage, or else they would be continuing to keep the hole's corner as far above the ocean surface as possible instead of letting it back down,

2) either they re-ballasted the hole's corner (after more obviously emptying the other corners) to stabilize the hole for work, OR, guess what, the dry weight of nine octaweb engines is 4.66 US tons.

My only question now is, why was the ASDS turned around to put the hole opposite the bulkhead? When it was first moored, the hole was on the same side as the bulkhead.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 03/18/2016 07:53 pm
A second hand (preloved) 300ft barge costs about $2.5M (very quick google).

Repairs to same barge for a small hole, $250k? No, don't think so.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 03/18/2016 08:07 pm
OR, guess what, the dry weight of nine octaweb engines is 4.66 US tons.

4.66 tons is just over 4 cubic meters of water displacement.  The barge hull is 91 * 30 meters.  That ain't it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/18/2016 08:52 pm
OR, guess what, the dry weight of nine octaweb engines is 4.66 US tons.

4.66 tons is just over 4 cubic meters of water displacement.  The barge hull is 91 * 30 meters. That ain't it.

I was talking about only one corner, and even smaller, only the ballast tanks underneath that one corner. That more confined area is still probably larger than 4 cubic meters though, I presume. Have to admit I wasn't quite motivated enough on top of everything else to look up the weight of water. So does that imply you agree that corner was re-ballasted to stabilize it for the work, or what else could be weighing it down more than all 3 other corners? Surely not just the equipment & supplies on the deck?

BTW, I reviewed some images and can answer one of my own questions, asking if the list first being away from the hole was fact. In the video of the ASDS coming in, the list is toward the corner opposite the hole but on the same end, and the corner with the hole is obviously up -- I don't know if that end is the bow or stern, but I mark it by a small white metal "bubble" sticking up from one of the large white containers, something that isn't duplicated on the other end. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 03/18/2016 09:34 pm
I don't really have an opinion on how or where or why it was ballasted.  But with all the recent talk of the ASDS moving out of the way of a falling rocket, or FTS somehow being used to prevent crash damage, etc. I thought it would be helpful to remind people of just how light aerospace hardware is on the relative scale of an oceangoing barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/19/2016 03:08 am
I reviewed some images and can answer one of my own questions, asking if the list first being away from the hole was fact. In the video of the ASDS coming in, the list is toward the corner opposite the hole but on the same end, and the corner with the hole is obviously up -- I don't know if that end is the bow or stern, but
Too tired to think much maybe you've got this or maybe not - It came in bow first (of course) but then did a U turn before parking.  Bow now pointing out towards ocean.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/20/2016 12:44 am
It came in bow first (of course) but then did a U turn before parking.  Bow now pointing out towards ocean.

Thanks for the heads up on which end is the bow, but there wasn't a U turn before mooring when she first came in, as can be seen in this picture from that day March 8th. Probably not much to chew on though, I thought later, maybe just how they had to turn to eject the ballast water into the sea instead of into the street, or whatever that is behind the bulkhead. Also could have something to do with the levels of the other corners relative to the bulkhead while the hole corner is weighed down, and getting machinery & supplies onboard more easily.

(http://public.cyndyclayton.fastmail.us/ASDS/2016-03-08%20OCISLY%20aerial%20300w.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 03/20/2016 08:07 am
It came in bow first (of course) but then did a U turn before parking.  Bow now pointing out towards ocean.

Thanks for the heads up on which end is the bow, but there wasn't a U turn before mooring when she first came in, as can be seen in this picture from that day March 8th. Probably not much to chew on though, I thought later, maybe just how they had to turn to eject the ballast water into the sea instead of into the street, or whatever that is behind the bulkhead. Also could have something to do with the levels of the other corners relative to the bulkhead while the hole corner is weighed down, and getting machinery & supplies onboard more easily.

(http://public.cyndyclayton.fastmail.us/ASDS/2016-03-08%20OCISLY%20aerial%20300w.jpg)

There seems to be some confusion here (though I may be the one confused - if I'm wrong, I'd appreciate being corrected).

In that picture you posted, the bow is to the right. An easy way to determine it is the ASDSs name is on the port (left) side. The ASDS appears to be in the same orientation in later pictures.

The list seen was, as I recall, toward the forward starboard quarter (which was a bit lower in the water than the rest), so away from the hole, which is in the aft port quarter.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/20/2016 12:07 pm
Quote
There seems to be some confusion here (though I may be the one confused - if I'm wrong, I'd appreciate being corrected).

In that picture you posted, the bow is to the right. An easy way to determine it is the ASDSs name is on the port (left) side. The ASDS appears to be in the same orientation in later pictures.

The list seen was, as I recall, toward the forward starboard quarter (which was a bit lower in the water than the rest), so away from the hole, which is in the aft port quarter.

You (and Ohsin) are correct. Bow is now on right side of photo, pointing towards open sea, which means she did a U-turn before docking.

Also, this screen shot from the Port Canaveral webcam shows the list towards the bow (left side of photo) as she entered port. To my eye the bow port corner is lowest to the water, but maybe the perspective is fooling my eye.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/20/2016 12:17 pm
And for help with perspective on the orientation, here's a shot from before SES-9, with bow facing left as it would be during tow-in (in opposite direction of her current orientation). Port entrance is to the right.

(https://i.imgur.com/dZ8ypzz.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 03/20/2016 12:51 pm
A couple of points...

Recall that the ASDS operates with its "bollard boxes" partially flooded.  This lets it ride lower in the water and gives it great stability in an ocean-wave environment.

The list seen as OCISLY came back from SES-9 duty was down in the opposite corner of the barge from the holed compartment.  This means that OCISLY wasn't listing because of complete flooding of the compartment(s) under the hole -- it was listing because the compartment(s) under the hole had been pumped as dry as possible.

So, for the sake of illustration, if the various "bollard box" compartments normally operate half-flooded, for stability, OCISLY's list was caused by pumping water out of the affected compartment(s) and having them providing a higher level of flotation than the rest of the barge.

This speaks to the likelihood that the hull plating beneath the hole was likely not damaged (at least not holed), and the list was due the compartment(s) under the hole being emptied of their normal level of water. The opposite of the list being caused by one or more compartments being breached to the sea and flooded.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: symbios on 03/20/2016 02:31 pm
I'm sorry to be a little petty  ;D

But a bollard is something you use to tie the boat to the key. <edit> In this context a</edit> bollard box refers to a cut out section at deck level where you place the bollard out of the way. (se OxCartMark answer below)

You could call it a ballast tank. Or a water tight section of the hull used as a ballast tank. There might be a more correct technical term... English is not my first language  8)

Recall that the ASDS operates with its "bollard boxes" partially flooded.  This lets it ride lower in the water and gives it great stability in an ocean-wave environment.

Edit: Thanks OxCartMark for the clarification.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/20/2016 03:45 pm
I'm sorry to be a little petty  ;D

But a bollard is something you use to tie the boat to the key. A bollard box refers to a cut out section usually at deck level where you place the bollard out of the way.

You could call it a ballast tank. Or a water tight section of the hull used as a ballast tank. There might be a more correct technical term... English is not my first language  8)

Recall that the ASDS operates with its "bollard boxes" partially flooded.  This lets it ride lower in the water and gives it great stability in an ocean-wave environment.

"Bollard Box" is a term that Ohsin came up with to call out the rectangular hollowness space that is created around the bollards (the short posts that rope is tied to).  This allows the bollards to be below flush with the deck and inside of the side width of the barge.  AFAIK, bollard box is not an official nautical term but rather something that Ohsin came up with to explain what he was seeing.  It seems he came up with the term a year or so ago and used it here but I forgot and ~10 days ago in this thread I had to ask and he explained that term.  That's how I'm now familiar with the term.  I think ballast tank or water tight compartment may be the right term for what is below deck.

The list away from the hole seen when ASDS OCISLY came in was explained above as being due to water having been pumped out of the damaged compartment / tank(s).  That may or may not be the case.  It could also be the case that water was pumped from other compartments in that area and it may be that it wasn't possible to drain that tank if it was holed on the bottom, other than the small reduction that would come from water draining out the bottom as that side of the barge came up from draining surrounding compartments.

Quote
bol·lard
ˈbälərd
noun
1.
a short, thick post on the deck of a ship or on a wharf, to which a ship's rope may be secured.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/20/2016 06:28 pm
I may have started the confusion with my later U-turn & hole corner re-ballast ideas, and I apologize, but it was an honest mistake. In the video of the piece of deck being lifted (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1504682#msg1504682), it's clear the piece is being lifted from the side opposite the bulkhead, and that it was cut from there too (latter clearer at full screen w/ zoom in about 3:18), and in the aerial from March 8th, the large hole is against the bulkhead.

So in other words, U-turn aside, unfortunately I might now have to add even more confusion. That deck piece and large hole it came from are clearly on the starboard side, using my marker for the bow, the small white metal bubble sticking up from a white container on one end, which jives with CJ's marker of name on port side, both being visible in Kabloona's photo. In addition, when I just watched the video again, that hole does not appear to be in the corner as I & others may have first assumed, but close to the center of the starboard side. In the March 8th photo, the hole we've been following is on the same side as the name, the port side, and clearly in a corner.

I don't see how anyone can guess what THAT is about, so it might help if we can hang on till this:
Someone on Reddit says he'll be down there Sunday with a drone to take aerial video, so maybe we'll see some footage from him this weekend.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/20/2016 07:11 pm
Quote
So in other words, U-turn aside, unfortunately I might now have to add even more confusion. That deck piece and large hole it came from are clearly on the starboard side, using my marker for the bow, the small white metal bubble sticking up from a white container on one end, which jives with CJ's marker of name on port side, both being visible in Kabloona's photo. In addition, when I just watched the video again, that hole does not appear to be in the corner as I & others may have first assumed, but close to the center of the starboard side. In the March 8th photo, the hole we've been following is on the same side as the name, the port side, and clearly in a corner.

If I understand correctly, you're saying you see a large hole at the center starboard side, in the video where the telehandler picked up the large piece of deck that had been cut out. But I don't think you're seeing a second hole. I believe you're seeing a dark pile of scrap steel that was cut out of the "original" hole from the impact in the stern/port corner. I think they cut several pieces of steel out of that hole and piled it on the starboard side, amidships.

Another indicator is the orange safety cones. You can see them in the far stern corner, around the "original" hole. If there were another hole on the starboard side by the debris pile, we would see cones surrounding that, too, but there aren't any cones visible there. So I believe it's just a scrap pile, not a second hole.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/20/2016 07:36 pm
I don't know Kabloona, it will be nice if you're right, but I just looked again and I still think it's a new hole they've cut. I only see flat gray plates lying around the area. I also see the orange cones on the stern after you mentioned them, but I don't think they would put them around a hole while they're working on it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sewebster on 03/20/2016 08:44 pm
I don't know Kabloona, it will be nice if you're right, but I just looked again and I still think it's a new hole they've cut. I only see flat gray plates lying around the area. I also see the orange cones on the stern after you mentioned them, but I don't think they would put them around a hole while they're working on it.

Are you looking at that video? Seems like you can see the pieces of junk shift around when they pick up the big piece at around 1:45... https://youtu.be/AJNPUqHFdLg?t=105
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 03/20/2016 10:03 pm
I don't know Kabloona, it will be nice if you're right, but I just looked again and I still think it's a new hole they've cut. I only see flat gray plates lying around the area. I also see the orange cones on the stern after you mentioned them, but I don't think they would put them around a hole while they're working on it.

They most definitely would have some kind of warning or barrier around part of an open space/fall hazard - OSHA regulations require them. I'm with Kabloona on this.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/20/2016 11:07 pm
Are you looking at that video? Seems like you can see the pieces of junk shift around when they pick up the big piece at around 1:45... https://youtu.be/AJNPUqHFdLg?t=105

You're right, something black fluttered around big time for about 2-3 seconds there. It made me think of tar paper more than scrap steel, but there's a better closeup at 4:40 that could pass for the same material instead of a hole.

They most definitely would have some kind of warning or barrier around part of an open space/fall hazard - OSHA regulations require them. I'm with Kabloona on this.

There are a lot of flat pieces of gray metal lying around for protection, and companies skirt around OSHA regulations all the time when they think no one is watching, but in this case there's a good chance the repair companies can guess people are watching. So, as I said here & previously, I'm happy to be more convinced that's not a new hole after all.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/21/2016 02:14 pm
From the previous thread

Quote
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #6295 on: March 08, 2016, 09:29:58 AM »
Reddit user heading there with DSLR and drone.

The level of stalking for this barge is huge!

Did this ever happen?  Did said reddit user forget to go?  Forget to take off the lens cap?  Forget to upload?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 03/21/2016 06:36 pm
I noticed a new pic of OCISLY on Redit, said to be taken today.
http://i.imgur.com/O1mGlJ0.jpg

Relevant thread is;
https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4bdo1f/im_at_the_port_could_anyone_verify_if_this_is/

Looks to me like OCISLY still has a slight list away from the hole. (the photo is from off the starboard forward quarter).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/21/2016 08:44 pm
And the guy with the drone posted about 3 hours ago saying it was too windy to fly, but that he would try again later.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/21/2016 09:02 pm
Quote
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #6295 on: March 08, 2016, 09:29:58 AM »
Reddit user heading there with DSLR and drone.

Did this ever happen?  Did said reddit user forget to go?  Forget to take off the lens cap?  Forget to upload?

The aerial image I re-posted a smaller version of just a few posts ago, on the 19th, was first posted here on March 8th, the same day as the Reddit quote. The source given here was the Spacenews page on Facebook, but the photo could have been taken by the same Reddit photographer, depending on time of day of course.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/21/2016 09:10 pm
I noticed a new pic of OCISLY on Redit, said to be taken today.
http://i.imgur.com/O1mGlJ0.jpg

So the good news is the starboard aft thruster is back up!

Quote
Looks to me like OCISLY still has a slight list away from the hole. (the photo is from off the starboard forward quarter).

Still something of a mystery why the starboard bow corner has been listing after coming in with the port bow corner listing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/21/2016 09:36 pm
Quote
Looks to me like OCISLY still has a slight list away from the hole. (the photo is from off the starboard forward quarter).

Still something of a mystery why the starboard bow corner has been listing after coming in with the port bow corner listing.

Not that much of a mystery..  They will have trimmed it like that to ensure any remaining water in the damaged ballast tank stays away from the site of the repair if they get any motion from the wake of a passing vessel.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 03/22/2016 01:22 am
And the guy with the drone posted about 3 hours ago saying it was too windy to fly, but that he would try again later.

Posted here. Drone wasn't used though.

http://johnkrausphotos.com/ocisly-march-21-2016/

Edit 1:
They really opened it up. I see whole rectangular section has been removed and all these beams on deck would probably be used to fix it from inside. Also stern thruster is half up.

Edit2:
Is that tube for ventilation? Also I think we can see some beam work already in place.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/22/2016 01:50 am
The bow bubble is gone. I'm lost.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/22/2016 02:18 am
The bow bubble is gone. I'm lost.

It's the "original" hole in the stern, port side. They cut away all around it to make a big rectangular hole so the edges are straight.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/22/2016 02:25 am
And the guy with the drone posted about 3 hours ago saying it was too windy to fly, but that he would try again later.

Posted here. Drone wasn't used though.

http://johnkrausphotos.com/ocisly-march-21-2016/

Edited:

They really opened it up. I see whole rectangular section has been removed and all these beams on deck would probably be used to fix it from inside. Also stern thruster is half up.

Yes, the blue is likely a primer coat.  You can see the new steel angles to be used to support the deck plates and a deck girder hanging from the crane.

Note the white ventilation duct with an industrial fan on the end.  Don't see any sign of new deck plates just yet.. but they're making good progress. :)

Edit:
Edit2:
Is that tube for ventilation? Also I think we can see some beam work already in place.

Yes.. and yes - looks like they're almost half-way there.  They'll likely complete all of the beams, girders and bulkhead work then cover it up with fresh deck plates and a final inspection.  Then comes the painting.. inside and out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/22/2016 03:46 am
The bow bubble is gone. I'm lost.

It's the "original" hole in the stern, port side. They cut away all around it to make a big rectangular hole so the edges are straight.

Hahaha, I know I've been on the confused side lately, but not that confused. I meant it like "who moved my cheese?" Could be a problem for me if they don't put it back though, when the deck isn't visible, or worse, if someone gets tricky and moves it to the stern.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/22/2016 04:12 am
Whoever it was that was guessing toward the $50k end of the spectrum that money looks to have been spent.  I'm not going back to Elon to ask for the rest of the money we need to get this hole filled. You go ask him.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/22/2016 05:25 am
Whoever it was that was guessing toward the $50k end of the spectrum that money looks to have been spent.  I'm not going back to Elon to ask for the rest of the money we need to get this hole filled. You go ask him.

Well.. there are certainly cheaper ways to do a repair like this.  I know a dockyard in Malaysia...  ;D
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/22/2016 07:43 am
The bow bubble is gone. I'm lost.

It's the "original" hole in the stern, port side. They cut away all around it to make a big rectangular hole so the edges are straight.

Hahaha, I know I've been on the confused side lately, but not that confused. I meant it like "who moved my cheese?" Could be a problem for me if they don't put it back though, when the deck isn't visible, or worse, if someone gets tricky and moves it to the stern.

Sorry. I expect the cheese will return, maybe on anti-vibration mounts. (I assume the bubble you mean is that VSAT antenna dome that gets vibrated by the exhaust noise during landing attempts and loses satellite lock, disrupting the live feed. Now would be a good time to do some acoustic tests on it in an acoustic chamber and dial in some anti-vibe mounts...)

https://www.vibrationmounts.com/uses/aerospace.htm
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Semmel on 03/22/2016 11:04 am
New images and drone video from EverydayAstronauts images

http://i.imgur.com/E8T9pEj.jpg (same as attachment)

https://youtu.be/r5bybH72JPo
posted on reddit.

Looks like the hull was breached after all, just below the wing. Makes sense to keep that side of the OCISLY out of the water in that case. Any speculation if the engine section went right through or if it got stuck inside? I cant see it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 03/22/2016 11:07 am
Here's an overhead shot provided by Reddit user Termderd. You can see how they had to remove decking to get back to the main stringers to be able to tie in the cross trusses. I see eleven generators (welders) and one massive beam over towards the bow.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/22/2016 11:09 am
New images and drone video from EverydayAstronauts images

http://i.imgur.com/E8T9pEj.jpg (same as attachment)

https://youtu.be/r5bybH72JPo
posted on reddit.

Looks like the hull was breached after all, just below the wing. Makes sense to keep that side of the OCISLY out of the water in that case. Any speculation if the engine section went right through or if it got stuck inside? I cant see it.
I watched the vid a couple times and I'm not quite clear how you drew that conclusion... there is never an overhead view that lets us see into the hole, plus there is blue(teal??) material covering a lot of it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Semmel on 03/22/2016 11:10 am
I watched the vid a couple times and I'm not quite clear how you drew that conclusion... there is never an overhead view that lets us see into the hole, plus there is blue(teal??) material covering a lot of it.

look at the picture.. its not visible in the video I beleave.

edit: Part of the yellow/orange background is missing where the wing attaches to the body of the barge. It looks like a section is cut out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/22/2016 11:36 am
That's a really interesting view into the inside of the machine.  I don't think I've ever seen the inside of an ASDS before.

Has there always been the blue tarping on the fence around the SpaceX area?  I see more portable fencing with blue tarp near the plastic outhouses, and interestingly, a section of it blocking the view that someone might have under the wing area.

Cindy's antenna bubble is immediately on shore next to the bow.  Its strapped to a pallet for shipment, either coming or going or maybe just that way to lift it off the ASDS.

Interesting singe marks on the white container behind the blast wall but I think we knew this had taken some damage.  Curious that they're not painting it.

Looks like the hull was breached after all, just below the wing. Makes sense to keep that side of the OCISLY out of the water in that case. Any speculation if the engine section went right through or if it got stuck inside? I cant see it.

look at the picture.. its not visible in the video I beleave.

edit: Part of the yellow/orange background is missing where the wing attaches to the body of the barge. It looks like a section is cut out.

When you said the hull breached I think a few folks might have taken you to be saying the bottom was holed but you are pointing to the side of the hull being apparently blown out or at least cut out.  Good observation but there may be fruit for additional observation here.

Can we get the drone down inside the hole?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: symbios on 03/22/2016 12:56 pm
Added a picture to to show what Semmel is referring to.

There must have been some serious structural damage from the impact. Buckling of stringers and load bearing beams. Definitely passing the 50 k $ mark. But I still think far from the 250 k mark.  :P

Maybe getting close with Inspections, Marine architects/engineers and their associated costs, etc...

I think that if anything below the waterline had been damage, it would have been away to the boatyard for the ASDS.  8)

I watched the vid a couple times and I'm not quite clear how you drew that conclusion... there is never an overhead view that lets us see into the hole, plus there is blue(teal??) material covering a lot of it.

look at the picture.. its not visible in the video I beleave.

edit: Part of the yellow/orange background is missing where the wing attaches to the body of the barge. It looks like a section is cut out.

Enlarge to see the encircled area more clearly:
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Retired Downrange on 03/22/2016 01:03 pm
......  I see more portable fencing with blue tarp near the plastic outhouses, and interestingly, a section of it blocking the view that someone might have under the wing area.


My guess is the blue tarp at the plastic outhouses (which blocks the view of the repair area) is there to protect the eyes of people approaching the outhouses, from direct exposure to the arc welding.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 03/22/2016 01:10 pm
Part of the yellow/orange background is missing where the wing attaches to the body of the barge. It looks like a section is cut out.

Looking at that blown up enlarged, I believe what you're seeing is an inset "bollard box" (to use the convenient, if not exactly canonical, term).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/22/2016 01:15 pm
CyndyC, there's your (new?) white bubble (VSAT antenna dome) dockside on a pallet, by the bow.

The photographer (Tim Dodd according to the photo watermark, who is presumably the reddit user termderd) commented over there that he was stopped by a policeman and told that drone flying was illegal around the port. So the days of us getting new drone footage of OCISLY may be numbered...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 03/22/2016 01:33 pm
Still not seeing a hull breach. Still surprised how much damage was allegedly done (difficult to tell from these pictures anyway), would not have expected that at all, 1/2" steel plate reinforced by some pretty big stringers is a very strong surface, even for something travelling at 200mph. I doubt that once past the deck and the stringers there was enough energy left in the octoweb/engines to puncture the hull as well.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 03/22/2016 01:35 pm

Still not seeing a hull breach. Still surprised how much damage was allegedly done (difficult to tell from these pictures anyway), would not have expected that at all, 1/2" steel plate reinforced by some pretty big stringers is a very strong surface, even for something travelling at 200mph. I doubt that once past the deck and the stringers there was enough energy left in the octoweb/engines to puncture the hull as well.
The hull side is being repaired (post breach)

Keep in mind the the wings extend past hull sides. Therefore if you look into the hole you can see the actual hull side that's under repair.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: symbios on 03/22/2016 01:42 pm
I must agree with ClayJar after he pointed this out.  If you look at Semmels original large image you can see where the wings are attach and the "cut-in" sections evenly spaced along the line/seam of the wing for the "bollard-boxes". The "hole" in the side of the hull visible at the damaged area could mach a "bollard-box".

Part of the yellow/orange background is missing where the wing attaches to the body of the barge. It looks like a section is cut out.

Looking at that blown up enlarged, I believe what you're seeing is an inset "bollard box" (to use the convenient, if not exactly canonical, term).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/22/2016 01:45 pm
There's sidewall damage above the waterline, since the deck extends over the sidewall, but it's limited to the part right near the deck - essentially a beam at that point.

Because it is limited, I don't think it extended much lower towards the waterline - unless the sidewall itself transmitted impact further below.

Might have been cleaner if it hit more towards center deck.

I agree with other posters - that's quite an impact...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 03/22/2016 02:03 pm
I agree with other posters - that's quite an impact...

Indeed. Someone do the math - what's the kinetic energy of a returning, nearly empty S1 at 90 mph? ;)

Now, snark aside, people routinely misunderstand impact forces and the amount of damage done by even relatively low speed impacts between massive objects. And frankly, 90 mph isn't slow, and the octoweb and engine powerbeads are both strong and relatively dense.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 03/22/2016 02:07 pm
Couple of spots seem to have been marked with spray paint for repair?

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/22/2016 02:09 pm
I tend not to believe the "bollard cutout" explanation for the gap in the right side of the ribbed yellow sidewall. The bollard cutouts are vertical, but that missing area we see meets the yellow sidewall at an angle, as if torched out.

Also, if that sidewall were not damaged, why would they extend the deck plate cutout beyond that area into the wing?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kaputnik on 03/22/2016 02:27 pm
I agree with other posters - that's quite an impact...

Indeed. Someone do the math - what's the kinetic energy of a returning, nearly empty S1 at 90 mph? ;)

Now, snark aside, people routinely misunderstand impact forces and the amount of damage done by even relatively low speed impacts between massive objects. And frankly, 90 mph isn't slow, and the octoweb and engine powerbeads are both strong and relatively dense.

High School physics tells me about 40MJ- assuming the oft quoted stage mass of 20t.

A friend of mine taught me to remember the formula by saying "eek, half my Volkswagen has vanished"...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/22/2016 02:36 pm
Cyndy's antenna bubble is immediately on shore next to the bow.  Its strapped to a pallet for shipment, either coming or going or maybe just that way to lift it off the ASDS.
CyndyC, there's your (new?) white bubble (VSAT antenna dome) dockside on a pallet, by the bow.

Yay! Thanks for that. Can't believe the both of you were able to spot it, and I didn't know what it was before this. Bow ID aside, it might help the situation if SpaceX uses more than one, and adds some of Kabloona's shock & vibration components (https://www.vibrationmounts.com/uses/aerospace.htm).

Any speculation if the engine section went right through or if it got stuck inside? I cant see it.
Can we get the drone inside the hull?
So the days of us getting new drone footage of OCISLY may be numbered...

That's disappointing, but people here don't seem to have a problem using their imaginations. Sorry to those who don't care about seeing the image below again, but it might provide some help with Semmel's & OxCartMark's questions, and help illustrate some of the comments from others, and took enough work worth a repeat from my perspective:

(http://public.cyndyclayton.fastmail.us/ASDS/2016-03-08%20OCISLY%20aerial%20corner+web%206x4.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 03/22/2016 03:58 pm
I tend not to believe the "bollard cutout" explanation for the gap in the right side of the ribbed yellow sidewall. The bollard cutouts are vertical, but that missing area we see meets the yellow sidewall at an angle, as if torched out.

Also, if that sidewall were not damaged, why would they extend the deck plate cutout beyond that area into the wing?

The bollard cutouts (or should we call them "cleat cuts", since they actually had mooring cleats in them originally, not cylindrical bollards) are trapezoidal when viewed from above.  I believe the angle you're seeing is an artifact of perspective.  I *think* I can discern the other end of the cutout, but there isn't enough resolved detail to say with any confidence.  (Attached is a crop of two cleats in the pre-Panama now-JRtI.)

The deck plate and perhaps original hull sidewall must have been compromised to require that extent of deck work, but I am reasonably confident that what we see in the image is at least primarily the original cutout and not new work.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/22/2016 05:14 pm
Quote
The bollard cutouts (or should we call them "cleat cuts", since they actually had mooring cleats in them originally, not cylindrical bollards) are trapezoidal when viewed from above.  I believe the angle you're seeing is an artifact of perspective.  I *think* I can discern the other end of the cutout, but there isn't enough resolved detail to say with any confidence.  (Attached is a crop of two cleats in the pre-Panama now-JRtI.)


You know what? I think you're right, and moreover, in that aerial photo I think I see a cleat right where it should be if that were a "cleat cutout."
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 03/22/2016 05:19 pm
CyndyC, there's your (new?) white bubble (VSAT antenna dome) dockside on a pallet, by the bow.

The photographer (Tim Dodd according to the photo watermark, who is presumably the reddit user termderd) commented over there that he was stopped by a policeman and told that drone flying was illegal around the port. So the days of us getting new drone footage of OCISLY may be numbered...


Well, there's always balloons...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 03/22/2016 05:29 pm
I suppose its possible that if the wing took a big impact, the support struts may have been pushed in to the hull wall, which could have bent them or perhaps made a slight puncture leak. But the hole seems to indicate the main impact wasn't far enough out.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/22/2016 05:44 pm
What impressed me, seeing the extend of the work, is how quickly after getting to port actual work has begun.

There had to be damage assessment, repair planning, approval of repair plans, ordering material and equipment, etc...

Each step can be expedited, for sure, but in order to see arcs so quickly, the organization had to be really efficient.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 03/22/2016 06:32 pm
I suppose its possible that if the wing took a big impact, the support struts may have been pushed in to the hull wall, which could have bent them or perhaps made a slight puncture leak. But the hole seems to indicate the main impact wasn't far enough out.

So far we have seen extreme localized damage on deck and equipment but never on wings. I think this was discussed previously but can't recall much. Also estimating the nature of damage they could have a prefabricated wing section in store somewhere.. just in case.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: joncz on 03/22/2016 06:41 pm
Quote
The bollard cutouts (or should we call them "cleat cuts", since they actually had mooring cleats in them originally, not cylindrical bollards) are trapezoidal when viewed from above.  I believe the angle you're seeing is an artifact of perspective.  I *think* I can discern the other end of the cutout, but there isn't enough resolved detail to say with any confidence.  (Attached is a crop of two cleats in the pre-Panama now-JRtI.)


You know what? I think you're right, and moreover, in that aerial photo I think I see a cleat right where it should be if that were a "cleat cutout."


Like so?

(http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/images/Marmac%2004%20Launch%20010%20eb.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 03/22/2016 06:58 pm
What impressed me, seeing the extend of the work, is how quickly after getting to port actual work has begun.

There had to be damage assessment, repair planning, approval of repair plans, ordering material and equipment, etc...

Each step can be expedited, for sure, but in order to see arcs so quickly, the organization had to be really efficient.

Well, since SpaceX seems to be trying for an ASDS landing on CRS-8, and since that is currently scheduled for two and a half weeks from now, I'd wager OCISLY will need to leave port in about two weeks.

So, yes, very gratifying to see the speed of the repair.  Also, though, perhaps extremely necessary...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 03/22/2016 07:22 pm
Quote
The bollard cutouts (or should we call them "cleat cuts", since they actually had mooring cleats in them originally, not cylindrical bollards) are trapezoidal when viewed from above.  I believe the angle you're seeing is an artifact of perspective.  I *think* I can discern the other end of the cutout, but there isn't enough resolved detail to say with any confidence.  (Attached is a crop of two cleats in the pre-Panama now-JRtI.)

You know what? I think you're right, and moreover, in that aerial photo I think I see a cleat right where it should be if that were a "cleat cutout."

Like so?

The first cutout at the front (pictured above, about where the hull slopes into the water on the bow when unladen) has a pair of bollards, as does the cutout directly at the stern.  Those two are about a foot "deeper" (measured from deck level) than the intervening six cutouts, each of which has a mooring cleat.

(Source: First-hand examination of MARMAC 303 while it was near Morgan City along with 300 and 304 during one of my favorite kayak excursions ever.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/22/2016 07:35 pm
(Source: First-hand examination of MARMAC 303 while it was near Morgan City along with 300 and 304 during one of my favorite kayak excursions ever.)

You know you're a space geek when "favorite kayak excursion" involves barges and industrial snooping, rather than white water, tall pines and mountain views...

Thanks for all the info you gathered, it's still paying off...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/22/2016 10:07 pm
What impressed me, seeing the extend of the work, is how quickly after getting to port actual work has begun.

There had to be damage assessment, repair planning, approval of repair plans, ordering material and equipment, etc...

Each step can be expedited, for sure, but in order to see arcs so quickly, the organization had to be really efficient.

Yes, they didn't mess around. Very impressive indeed!  :)

One possibility is that much of the general damage assessment (photos, phone calls) happened whilst on the way back to land and, once they realised there was structural damage this time, someone-in-charge made the call for help to MD Marine.  Given the size of this operation, it would not surprise me in the least if McD Marine flew a team of barge-builders over with all their gear and were waiting dockside, barge plans in hand, ready to get stuck in as soon as the lines were secure.  There's nothing special about the steelwork - that could have been sourced from anywhere.

Don't forget:  this barge isn't very old at all and it's quite likely the guys that built it originally are still on the tools.


EDIT:  Presuming there was no structural damage to the hull/ribs/keel (and for reasons posted uphill we have no reason to think there is) this is a pretty straightforward repair.  Seriously, it is not nearly as complex as it looks.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/22/2016 10:11 pm
What impressed me, seeing the extend of the work, is how quickly after getting to port actual work has begun.

There had to be damage assessment, repair planning, approval of repair plans, ordering material and equipment, etc...

Each step can be expedited, for sure, but in order to see arcs so quickly, the organization had to be really efficient.

Yes, they didn't mess around. Very impressive indeed!  :)

One possibility is that much of the general damage assessment (photos, phone calls) happened whilst on the way back to land and, once they realised there was structural damage this time, someone-in-charge made the call for help to MD Marine.  Given the size of this operation, it would not surprise me in the least if McD Marine flew a team of barge-builders over with all their gear and were waiting dockside, barge plans in hand, ready to get stuck in as soon as the lines were secure.  There's nothing special about the steelwork - that could have been sourced from anywhere.

Don't forget:  this barge isn't very old at all and it's quite likely the guys that built it originally are still on the tools.

Agreed - It's the only scenario that I can think of that matches what we see.    (Which does hike up the repair price, but as people noted, compared to the cost of a used stage, is still not a bad trade...)

And I assume that the barge builders are pretty stoked about this project...  so the will to go the extra mile was there...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/22/2016 10:16 pm
Agreed - It's the only scenario that I can think of that matches what we see.    (Which does hike up the repair price, but as people noted, compared to the cost of a used stage, is still not a bad trade...)

And I assume that the barge builders are pretty stoked about this project...  so the will to go the extra mile was there...

I imagine you're right - this is a 'spare no expense' repair that needs to be completed, to the owner's and ABS's satisfaction, in time for the next launch.  You don't get work like that every day!

..and check out the dock-side picnic shelter for their meal-breaks.  Very civilised indeed!  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/22/2016 10:30 pm
Maybe one of us can get in the yard if we offer to man the BBQ grill... :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/23/2016 12:28 am
I think what we need is to modify one of those huge container unloading cranes in the background to have a bargestalker observation platform, bar & grille suspended on it.  Perhaps it would have a small section of grandstand seating in the floating patio area outside the main cabin or building.  We could hover over or around any part of the ASDS without bothering them a bit.  They'd probably actually encourage us to hover over them to provide shade in the Florida summer.  Win-win.  And we could run it all the way up to have a great view of launches.  This really isn't as far fetched as you might think since (as you can see in the latest overhead images) the tracks for those cranes go all the way to the front of the ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 03/23/2016 01:00 am
lol we are spoiled rotten! drone videos and HD pictures!? back in my day you had to get your drone ship kicks from a grainy webcam video that only worked 2 days a week.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 03/23/2016 04:09 am
But it was clockwork regular with 10 hrs of live feed from vantage point!  :-\
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 03/23/2016 11:55 am
I heard Police cracked down on drone flying in Port Canaveral - people were issued tickets + reported to FAA (restricted airspace).

I was there last night watching Atlas V launch - there was a lot of activity at SpaceX barge. Cranes moving, welding etc. At 11 PM - looks like they are working 24x7.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/23/2016 01:11 pm
(restricted airspace)
Anyone care to delve into the truthiness of this restricted airspace?  Restricted by FAA?  Restricted by local ordinance? Restricted by port authority (is that possible on mostly non-port side of the waterway?) Restricted only in the minds of the police?

And what are the limits of its restrictedness?  For instance, if you moved another 100' off of that property would it be OK?

I wonder if it was SpaceX that pushed for this?.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rettenet on 03/23/2016 01:15 pm
(restricted airspace)
Anyone care to delve into the truthiness of this restricted airspace?  Restricted by FAA?  Restricted by local ordinance? Restricted by port authority (is that possible on mostly non-port side of the waterway?) Restricted only in the minds of the police?

And what are the limits of its restrictedness?  For instance, if you moved another 100' off of that property would it be OK?

I wonder if it was SpaceX that pushed for this?.

By FAA apparently. See this reddit comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4bgxok/asds_ocisly_aerial_video_march_21_2016_pic_in/d197l6p

Quote
There's not "legislation" exactly, which is to say, congress isn't passing laws specifically blocking off each restricted airspace. That's up to the FAA (although based on authority given by congress). R-2932 is the restricted airspace block over Port/Cape Canaveral and is continuously in effect below 5000'. Above 5000' for that same block is R-2933. Then there are a couple larger zones (R-2934 to the west and north and R-2935 that forms a "C" to the N/W/S of all the above) that are enabled as needed. These would apply to everything that flies. You have to get permission from the airspace's controlling authority, which I believe is the space wing there.
Looks like tomorrow R-2933 is active from 0222 to 0417 and again from 1400 to 1800 (times are Zulu). R-2934 is active tomorrow from 0222 to 0417. I recall hearing something about R-2935 rarely being activated (only for manned flight or something like that?).
You can checkout special use airspaces at the FAA website here: https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
Edit: Oh, right, Orbital is launching at 0315 tonight, so that explains 2933 and 2934 going active from 0222 to 0417.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CraigLieb on 03/23/2016 01:21 pm
(restricted airspace)
Anyone care to delve into the truthiness of this restricted airspace?  Restricted by FAA?  Restricted by local ordinance? Restricted by port authority (is that possible on mostly non-port side of the waterway?) Restricted only in the minds of the police?

And what are the limits of its restrictedness?  For instance, if you moved another 100' off of that property would it be OK?

I wonder if it was SpaceX that pushed for this?.

By FAA apparently. See this reddit comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4bgxok/asds_ocisly_aerial_video_march_21_2016_pic_in/d197l6p

Quote
There's not "legislation" exactly, which is to say, congress isn't passing laws specifically blocking off each restricted airspace. That's up to the FAA (although based on authority given by congress). R-2932 is the restricted airspace block over Port/Cape Canaveral and is continuously in effect below 5000'. Above 5000' for that same block is R-2933. Then there are a couple larger zones (R-2934 to the west and north and R-2935 that forms a "C" to the N/W/S of all the above) that are enabled as needed. These would apply to everything that flies. You have to get permission from the airspace's controlling authority, which I believe is the space wing there.
Looks like tomorrow R-2933 is active from 0222 to 0417 and again from 1400 to 1800 (times are Zulu). R-2934 is active tomorrow from 0222 to 0417. I recall hearing something about R-2935 rarely being activated (only for manned flight or something like that?).
You can checkout special use airspaces at the FAA website here: https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
Edit: Oh, right, Orbital is launching at 0315 tonight, so that explains 2933 and 2934 going active from 0222 to 0417.


Time for the longest selfie stick:
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/377096-longest-selfie-stick
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/23/2016 07:58 pm
...rather than doing what-if, why not try to figure out what SpaceX is doing and why and what things they are going to try next.  Some of the best threads on the site are those kind (the barge threads in many cases are like that)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/23/2016 08:55 pm
quoting me from another thread and you didn't even like that post? ... splutter...

So are they going to make it? Right to left planning, assuming no further CRS8 slips (can't count on those) what does the timeline look like?

When does the ASDS need to leave port? (if we assume worst case distance, a mostly ballistic reentry rather than a boostback)

Given that, when does the ASDS have to have all its seaworthiness paperwork done? How much time is needed for inspections?  before that, for painting? Besides teh major steelwork, what else do we speculate is needed? one thruster repaired? comm gear repaired? Anything else?

Go!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/23/2016 09:16 pm
Quote
When does the ASDS need to leave port? (if we assume worst case distance, a mostly ballistic reentry rather than a boostback)

No assumption necessary. FCC transmitter permit gives the expected ASDS position as around 160 nmi off the Cape. At 5 knots, the ASDS can get there in around 32 hours. So they could leave port as late as 2 days prior to launch and still have plenty of time to set up at the LZ.

(For future reference, the expected ASDS position is 30.5N, 78.5W)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 03/23/2016 10:53 pm
Quote
When does the ASDS need to leave port? (if we assume worst case distance, a mostly ballistic reentry rather than a boostback)

No assumption necessary. FCC transmitter permit gives the expected ASDS position as around 160 nmi off the Cape. At 5 knots, the ASDS can get there in around 32 hours. So they could leave port as late as 2 days prior to launch and still have plenty of time to set up at the LZ.

(For future reference, the expected ASDS position is 30.5N, 78.5W)

That location anticipates a normal boostback burn and regular single-engine landing burn, as have been executed nearly perfectly on at least a couple of occasions.

I think the CRS flights are within the F9's performance range for RTLS, so an ASDS landing should be well within its envelope.

I doubt there will be any problems getting OCISLY ready for departure in time to support CRS-8.  It looked like they were making good, steady progress as of that drone flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 03/24/2016 12:22 am
Re: the other party of Lar's question: I think we haven't been able to get a good handle on paperwork delays because the paperwork shows up online well after it must have been complete and "on file".  But I wouldn't doubt that they've got a good relationship with the inspectors and can get what they need in good time.  Can anyone do some paperwork sleuthing to put tighter bounds on the paperwork delay?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/24/2016 12:40 am
Re: the other party of Lar's question: I think we haven't been able to get a good handle on paperwork delays because the paperwork shows up online well after it must have been complete and "on file".  But I wouldn't doubt that they've got a good relationship with the inspectors and can get what they need in good time.  Can anyone do some paperwork sleuthing to put tighter bounds on the paperwork delay?

Paperwork delays: In reality, with cost no obstacle, there are none.  They'll arrange for the inspector to come and take a final look once the work is complete and they're sweeping up ready to leave (he may even be checking daily progress already..).  He'll sign-off right then and away they go.  The paperwork gets lodged when the inspector gets around to it - maybe that day or maybe later.. it doesn't matter, just as long as he signs off (and, more importantly, that they fix anything he doesn't like) before they leave the dock.

EDIT:  Final inspection for something like this should take no longer than an hour, excluding a celebratory beer or two dockside. :)  Painting will take a couple of days because there's at least two coats to go on over that primer and it's something the inspector will want to see.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/24/2016 01:53 am
Paperwork delays: In reality, with cost no obstacle, there are none.  They'll arrange for the inspector to come and take a final look once the work is complete and they're sweeping up ready to leave (he may even be checking daily progress already..).  He'll sign-off right then and away they go.  The paperwork gets lodged when the inspector gets around to it - maybe that day or maybe later.. it doesn't matter, just as long as he signs off (and, more importantly, that they fix anything he doesn't like) before they leave the dock.

EDIT:  Final inspection for something like this should take no longer than an hour, excluding a celebratory beer or two dockside. :)  Painting will take a couple of days because there's at least two coats to go on over that primer and it's something the inspector will want to see.
Is this inspector a government inspector (Coast Guard or similar) who would have one size fits all / fair to all ways of scheduling visits or is it a private entity such as a naval engineer that will take payment to move the inspection time to the front burner, even if that's 3:15am?  Even with the CG, I'm not meaning to imply anything negative and they are probably as much into what SpaceX has going on as we are.  Well, as close as normal people get to our level of enthusiasm at least.

I think the CRS flights are within the F9's performance range for RTLS...
Odd, but with the recent work I'm now shifted to the point that my first take on your abbreviation "CRS" is "Cold Rolled Steel".

(For future reference, the expected ASDS position is 30.5N, 78.5W)
Here plotted that is.  Its the lower lefter pin, red.  I noticed that the location is rounded to one decimal place so to see what one decimal accuracy does I've plotted another point, a smaller pin intermediate between CRS-8 and CRS-6/7 ASDS positions to show the reasonably assumable distance it might be from the point I've plotted (+0.1 lat, -0.1lon).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/24/2016 02:00 am
Curiositization-

There are quite a few radars around a port including I assume the CG, and whoever runs the port.  These radars don't rely on transponders, they are old school primary radar.  How evident would a drone be on that radar?  Probably not much since a drone has little in the may of area or reflective materials and marine radar doesn't care about vertical motion or even speed (?).  So that's not how the police were brought in so quickly to harsh the drone is it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/24/2016 02:04 am
Paperwork delays: In reality, with cost no obstacle, there are none.  They'll arrange for the inspector to come and take a final look once the work is complete and they're sweeping up ready to leave (he may even be checking daily progress already..).  He'll sign-off right then and away they go.  The paperwork gets lodged when the inspector gets around to it - maybe that day or maybe later.. it doesn't matter, just as long as he signs off (and, more importantly, that they fix anything he doesn't like) before they leave the dock.

I would be surprised if anyone can pay an official agency for faster service, and in fact that might be illegal (I see OxCartMark just alluded to that before I did). I'd also be surprised if multiple inspections aren't required to coincide with the various stages of repair. I acted as contractor for a bathroom remodel in my own home, which can be done w/o a license, and multiple interim inspections were required for such as plumbing, floor structure, electric, and fireproofing. I paid a one time charge based on the estimated cost of construction, and that included all inspections. I don't recall having to wait long for an inspection before the construction could continue, but it was around Christmas when a lot of people are sitting out construction.

Quote
EDIT:  Final inspection for something like this should take no longer than an hour, excluding a celebratory beer or two dockside. :)  Painting will take a couple of days because there's at least two coats to go on over that primer and it's something the inspector will want to see.

My final was definitely brief, and even allowed me to fudge a bit (by allowing me to keep a two handle shower fixture instead of the coded single handle), the inspector said, "Because it's Christmas," haha. I don't recall drinking any beer afterwards though. Another surprise will be if an inspection of the paint is required. Really?? That seems a bit extreme. Home construction does not even require inspection of tile installations.

Edit: I will say this about the paint though. Some paint requires 48-72 hours dry time between coats, and my guess would be the tough kind of paint required on seagoing vessels would fall into that category. Also, the glazing putty that goes around window glass to waterproof windows before painting is technically supposed to be allowed to dry for a couple of weeks before painting (http://www.doityourself.com/stry/how-long-does-it-take-for-glazing-putty-to-set#b). The people I hired painted over it the same week and now a lot of it is falling off. I imagine there's plenty of waterproofing substance(s) required for this vessel.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/24/2016 02:22 am
Curiositization-

There are quite a few radars around a port including I assume the CG, and whoever runs the port.  These radars don't rely on transponders, they are old school primary radar.  How evident would a drone be on that radar?  Probably not much since a drone has little in the may of area or reflective materials and marine radar doesn't care about vertical motion or even speed (?).  So that's not how the police were brought in so quickly to harsh the drone is it?

The guy said on Reddit that the cop told him half his time was spent busting people flying drones around the port. So he's probably got his eyes peeled for drones all the time he's on duty.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 03/24/2016 03:54 am
im not familiar with ship industry but are we sure there is actually a government mandated inspection of repairs? id think theyd only have to satisfy the barge owner?

i can sorta understand that the coast gaurd would have an interest in knowning that things arnt going to sink but on the other hand this isnt a passenger vessel, worst case scenario is sinks in a shallow spot and gets in the way.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/24/2016 06:15 am
Paperwork delays: In reality, with cost no obstacle, there are none.  They'll arrange for the inspector to come and take a final look once the work is complete and they're sweeping up ready to leave (he may even be checking daily progress already..).  He'll sign-off right then and away they go.  The paperwork gets lodged when the inspector gets around to it - maybe that day or maybe later.. it doesn't matter, just as long as he signs off (and, more importantly, that they fix anything he doesn't like) before they leave the dock.

I would be surprised if anyone can pay an official agency for faster service, and in fact that might be illegal (I see OxCartMark just alluded to that before I did). I'd also be surprised if multiple inspections aren't required to coincide with the various stages of repair. I acted as contractor for a bathroom remodel in my own home, which can be done w/o a license, and multiple interim inspections were required for such as plumbing, floor structure, electric, and fireproofing. I paid a one time charge based on the estimated cost of construction, and that included all inspections. I don't recall having to wait long for an inspection before the construction could continue, but it was around Christmas when a lot of people are sitting out construction.

My apologies - I DID NOT mean to imply an inspector could be paid off!  :o

What I mean by that comment is that, if cost is no obstacle, they (SpX, McD Marine) could afford to pay for an Inspector to stand around all day if that's what they need to do to ensure sign-off happens ASAP.  At the decent hourly rates these guys would be on, most folks can't afford that luxury.


My final was definitely brief, and even allowed me to fudge a bit (by allowing me to keep a two handle shower fixture instead of the coded single handle), the inspector said, "Because it's Christmas," haha. I don't recall drinking any beer afterwards though. Another surprise will be if an inspection of the paint is required. Really?? That seems a bit extreme. Home construction does not even require inspection of tile installations.

Edit: I will say this about the paint though. Some paint requires 48-72 hours dry time between coats, and my guess would be the tough kind of paint required on seagoing vessels would fall into that category. Also, the glazing putty that goes around window glass to waterproof windows before painting is technically supposed to be allowed to dry for a couple of weeks before painting (http://www.doityourself.com/stry/how-long-does-it-take-for-glazing-putty-to-set#b). The people I hired painted over it the same week and now a lot of it is falling off. I imagine there's plenty of waterproofing substance(s) required for this vessel.

There are pages of requirements for coatings in the Barge Rules so I won't bore you with specifics, but yes, generally final coatings must be inspected.  In some cases (eg. salt water ballast tanks) special corrosion resistant hard coatings might be required, but either way, the Inspector needs to check that the paintwork has been properly applied and the new steelwork isn't likely to rust any time soon.  These particular tanks are to be filled with water, remember?

You're right, some marine epoxy paints do require several hours to cure properly - but there's nothing I can think of in this repair that would require weeks..

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/24/2016 06:28 am
im not familiar with ship industry but are we sure there is actually a government mandated inspection of repairs? id think theyd only have to satisfy the barge owner?

Yes.  No. 

(You guys will be calling me "Barge Jim" soon.. :))
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 03/24/2016 06:46 am
im not familiar with ship industry but are we sure there is actually a government mandated inspection of repairs? id think theyd only have to satisfy the barge owner?

Yes.  No. 

(You guys will be calling me "Barge Jim" soon.. :))

could they get around this by using a flag of convenience for the barge?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/24/2016 07:07 am
im not familiar with ship industry but are we sure there is actually a government mandated inspection of repairs? id think theyd only have to satisfy the barge owner?

Yes.  No. 

(You guys will be calling me "Barge Jim" soon.. :))

could they get around this by using a flag of convenience for the barge?

Sometimes.. in some parts of the world, including those due south of you - but last I heard the USCG were cracking down on that sort of thing.

If you're operating regularly out of an American port, it would be mighty difficult to get away with.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 03/24/2016 07:28 am
found something

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2011/12/14/2011-32007/seagoing-barges

"In 1993, Congress exempted from inspection seagoing barges that are unmanned and not carrying hazardous material as cargo, or carrying a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2014-title46/html/USCODE-2014-title46-subtitleII-partB-chap33-sec3302.htm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

not a lawyer so not sure if this actually covers what it sounds like
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 03/24/2016 08:20 am
found something

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2011/12/14/2011-32007/seagoing-barges

"In 1993, Congress exempted from inspection seagoing barges that are unmanned and not carrying hazardous material as cargo, or carrying a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2014-title46/html/USCODE-2014-title46-subtitleII-partB-chap33-sec3302.htm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

not a lawyer so not sure if this actually covers what it sounds like

Sounds fair enough. Don't really care if a non-toxic barge sinks through bad maintenance - that's the owners fault. Unless of course it sinks somewhere important and gets in the way.

Makes a nice reef for coral etc. Lot's of tanks and old ships out there already doing that.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 03/24/2016 08:37 am
found something

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2011/12/14/2011-32007/seagoing-barges

"In 1993, Congress exempted from inspection seagoing barges that are unmanned and not carrying hazardous material as cargo, or carrying a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2014-title46/html/USCODE-2014-title46-subtitleII-partB-chap33-sec3302.htm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

not a lawyer so not sure if this actually covers what it sounds like
In that case, this barge is probably not exempted from inspection. The ASDS carries four substantial containers worth of combustible liquids.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 03/24/2016 09:23 am
Sounds fair enough. Don't really care if a non-toxic barge sinks through bad maintenance - that's the owners fault. Unless of course it sinks somewhere important and gets in the way.

Makes a nice reef for coral etc. Lot's of tanks and old ships out there already doing that.

As a diver, I must say, the opportunity to visit OCISLY underwater while admiring the underwater fauna that might be in the process of taking over it would most definitely both please the aerospace nerd and the diving nerd in me.

Sadly, not likely, though ...  :'(

Maybe  if we ask nicely enough, SpaceX might agree to sink the first barge-landed core along with its barge after having safed it ?
That might make for a very nice diving spot !  ;D

EDIT: Celebratory edit for my 50th post ! :P Well ... not every post can be serious !
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jet Black on 03/24/2016 01:09 pm
found something

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2011/12/14/2011-32007/seagoing-barges

"In 1993, Congress exempted from inspection seagoing barges that are unmanned and not carrying hazardous material as cargo, or carrying a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2014-title46/html/USCODE-2014-title46-subtitleII-partB-chap33-sec3302.htm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

not a lawyer so not sure if this actually covers what it sounds like
In that case, this barge is probably not exempted from inspection. The ASDS carries four substantial containers worth of combustible liquids.

depends on whether you class that as 'in bulk' though. I guess those containers are for fuel to be used, rather than stuff to be transported about the place.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 03/24/2016 01:44 pm
found something

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2011/12/14/2011-32007/seagoing-barges

"In 1993, Congress exempted from inspection seagoing barges that are unmanned and not carrying hazardous material as cargo, or carrying a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2014-title46/html/USCODE-2014-title46-subtitleII-partB-chap33-sec3302.htm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

not a lawyer so not sure if this actually covers what it sounds like
In that case, this barge is probably not exempted from inspection. The ASDS carries four substantial containers worth of combustible liquids.

But not as cargo, and not really bulk when compared to the rest of the barge. But that could be a cause for inspection.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CraigLieb on 03/24/2016 01:55 pm
OK you ASDS sleuths..
Ready to make a prediction who is going to win this round, the Anti-ASDS missile targeting system, or the Anti-rocket repellent, or will it be a draw?

Landing Poll just out..
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39862.0
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 03/24/2016 03:04 pm
not sure the difference between what they have listed as the CFR and the eCFR. one lists 250 barrels as bulk.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/90.05-25

§ 90.05-25 Seagoing barge.

(a) Each seagoing barge, as defined in 46 CFR 90.10-36, is subject to inspection and certification; except that a seagoing barge is exempt from those requirements if it is unmanned for the purposes of operating or navigating the barge, and carries neither a hazardous material as cargo nor a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk quantities of 250 barrels or more.

http://blog.transportbusinesslaw.com/2013/09/13/maritime-seagoing-barges-the-u-s-coast-guard-is-exempting-specified-seagoing-barges-from-its-inspection/

“The second commenter requested more detailed discussion in support of our proposed definition of a seagoing barge carrying flammable or combustible liquid, including oil ‘in bulk.” We are amending 46 CFR 90.05-25(a) to define ‘in bulk’’ as a quantity equivalent to at least 250 barrels (10,500 gallons). Some regulatory definition of ‘in bulk’ is needed so that barge operators know whether or not they are subject to the 46 U.S.C. 3302(m) exemption. The statute does not provide that definition. However, as we pointed out in the NPRM, 78 FR at 2150, col. 3, Coast Guard policy set the bulk threshold at 250 barrels in 1996. That same policy has been in place without public concern for almost two decades and so the regulatory definition follows current Coast Guard policy.”


we should start an extralegal probono NSF barge law office
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 03/24/2016 04:02 pm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

Not sure why everyone is so focused on (2), when (1) seems so much more relevant. I expect that a rocket (or parts there of) that was launched not 10 minutes prior would certainly be classified as hazardous material. (High pressure vessels, kerosene LOX, TEA/TEB)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/24/2016 04:48 pm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

Not sure why everyone is so focused on (2), when (1) seems so much more relevant. I expect that a rocket (or parts there of) that was launched not 10 minutes prior would certainly be classified as hazardous material. (High pressure vessels, kerosene LOX, TEA/TEB)

The TEA/TEB is probably all burned off during the landing burn ignition just for that reason, the tank pressurant is vented after landing, and the remaining LOX boils off. Kerosene is not a hazardous material.

The only remaining hazardous material on the rocket is the FTS charges, in such relatively small quantity that it's debatable whether that clause applies or not.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 03/24/2016 05:06 pm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

Not sure why everyone is so focused on (2), when (1) seems so much more relevant. I expect that a rocket (or parts there of) that was launched not 10 minutes prior would certainly be classified as hazardous material. (High pressure vessels, kerosene LOX, TEA/TEB)

The TEA/TEB is probably all burned off during the landing burn ignition just for that reason, the tank pressurant is vented after landing, and the remaining LOX boils off. Kerosene is not a hazardous material.

The only remaining hazardous material on the rocket is the FTS charges, in such relatively small quantity that it's debatable whether that clause applies or not.
Try to tell TSA at the airport that it's not hazardous.  :)
But anyway, anything that happens "after landing" is too late. It's cargo at soon as it lands.
I wouldn't expect SpaceX to test the limits of what they could get away with regarding inspections. It might be considered a poor indicator of how they might treat other far more important inspections.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/24/2016 05:23 pm
restricted airspace

selfie stick:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Will-Burt-9-5-56-Pneumatic-Mast-56-Tall-Telescoping-Mast-Broadcast-Mast-/281978116276?hash=item41a73498b4:g:i2kAAOSw0JpV6Pk7

Its common to have a camera on top of these things along with the microwave antenna but in our case I think it would be more um, interesting if we were to bolt an otherwise motionless drone to the top of it.

Edit:  The one shown is the simple American version that just goes up and down.  I think the Canadians make a version that is much longer and has articulated joints with grippers and various attachments on the end.  It used to be used to take selfies of the space shuttles.  If we were to put the Canadian version on our van it would probably reach a good portion of the way across the harbor.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/24/2016 06:56 pm
Paperwork delays: In reality, with cost no obstacle, there are none.  They'll arrange for the inspector to come and take a final look once the work is complete and they're sweeping up ready to leave (he may even be checking daily progress already..).  He'll sign-off right then and away they go.  The paperwork gets lodged when the inspector gets around to it - maybe that day or maybe later.. it doesn't matter, just as long as he signs off (and, more importantly, that they fix anything he doesn't like) before they leave the dock.

I would be surprised if anyone can pay an official agency for faster service, and in fact that might be illegal

If done informally that's a bribe. But some agencies do have provisions for paying extra for faster service. It's an option that is then open to whomever wants to pay the fee, so it's not a bribe. For example read up on US passport processing. You can pay extra for rush processing.

I have no idea if that's the case here... but did want to point out that it's not unprecedented to have two tracks, the expensive/fast track and the normal/normal track.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 03/24/2016 08:30 pm
If done informally that's a bribe. But some agencies do have provisions for paying extra for faster service. It's an option that is then open to whomever wants to pay the fee, so it's not a bribe. For example read up on US passport processing. You can pay extra for rush processing.

I have no idea if that's the case here... but did want to point out that it's not unprecedented to have two tracks, the expensive/fast track and the normal/normal track.
It's also the case that, sometimes, when one part of the government is your customer, they may have ways of encouraging other government agencies to help you out.   Years ago I heard a story about just how quickly you can get a passport if Something Is Broken on the other side of an ocean and your customer -- the US Navy -- needs your help to fix it...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RayL2 on 03/25/2016 03:01 pm
I happened to look over the rail on Disney Dream
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: tleski on 03/25/2016 03:17 pm
Looks like a new photo was just posted in the CRS-8 party thread. No selfie stick needed.

I happened to look over the rail on Disney Dream

Edit: Removed the photo, since the original posting was moved just above. I will keep the post to celebrate my 50th post on this forum.
And congratulations to RayL2 for a very nice first post.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 03/25/2016 05:45 pm
@RayL2 Thank you very much. Yet another picture that clarified more things.
This photo finally gave me view, directly  from the side on the engines

If you happen to be able to picture the barge again from this angle, it would be pefect to have a close up of the stern engines also directly from the side, pretty much form the same angle.

(I am doing scale model of the barge and it is going to be great, hope to finish it by CRS-8 launch)

Best regards,
       Maxim Levitsky
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RayL2 on 03/25/2016 06:56 pm
Here are 2 other Pictures from slightly different angles. This is all I have. I hope this helps. I am a very novice follower of Spaxex and was excited to happen to see OCISLY. I am spending the winter in Jupiter and have seen a couple of the launches and the successful return (or at least a partial view)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 03/25/2016 07:28 pm
Thank you very very very much  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RayL2 on 03/25/2016 08:06 pm
I have taken advantage of the great sharing on Spaceflight.com and am glad I can contribute
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 03/25/2016 08:12 pm
This is current state of my model for reference  :)

https://github.com/maximlevitsky/ASDS

Its not yet ready to be built though. Now I am working on model for engines, and while I have exact blueprints for them, its is still hard due to many things missing in the blueprints + need to translate everything to paper.

Also engines in 1:100 scale are damn small  :) - this will soon be big challenge for me to make them out of paper.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/25/2016 09:23 pm
Can someone help me understand why in this series of images of OCISLY coming back into port on March 8th we see scattered bits of debris on deck but we don't see the large chunk (presumably interstage or top of 1st stage or octaweb) that is prominent in Marek's and other pictures in the days after being tied up in port?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1501071#msg1501071 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1501071#msg1501071)

edit: a rathole of thought that is straightened out by others below (it was on deck).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/25/2016 10:03 pm
Can someone help me understand why in this series of images of OCISLY coming back into port on March 8th we see scattered bits of debris on deck but we don't see the large chunk (presumably interstage or top of 1st stage or octaweb) that is prominent in Marek's and other pictures in the days after being tied up in port?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1501071#msg1501071 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1501071#msg1501071)

I think this is it. Note that in both photos, it is in roughly the same rotational orientation on the ASDS. Once in port, they just dragged it forward, away from the crater.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/25/2016 11:03 pm
In Beittil's photo what I'm seeing in answer to OxCartMark's question is below. I've never understood why people have been saying anything the shape or size of an octaweb could be under that white tarp near the 'X'. To me some kind of single large glass dome appears to be peaking out, as seen again in Kabloona's photo, and I've had zero theories of my own on what it could be.

(http://public.cyndyclayton.fastmail.us/ASDS/2016-03-08%20OCISLY%20Tow%20600w%20.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/26/2016 01:30 am
Quote
I've never understood why people have been saying anything the shape or size of an octaweb could be under that white tarp near the 'X'.

Because the diameter of its circular end is roughly twice the height of the man in the photo, or about 12 feet, which is exactly the diameter of the rocket. So it's big enough in diameter to be the octaweb or the top end of the stage.

The object you circled in the previous post is only about half the height of the blast wall, ie nowhere near 12' diameter. It might be a fragment of tank cylinder lying on its side, but it's not big enough to be an octaweb lying on its side.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/26/2016 02:03 am
And here's an even better closeup from MarekCyzio's awesome hi-res panorama. We can even see the concave shape under the tarp, with the black hole in the center of the concavity where the propellant feeds down into the engines.

Workman in foreground gives us convenient scale. IMHO, it's the bottom end of the stage, with the engine bells facing away from us. Red circle is the diameter of the stage aft end.

CyndyC, the object you circled upthread might be the object in the lower right corner of this photo. It looks like a section of tank flattened on one side.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/26/2016 02:47 am
I agree, it was in the pic of the ASDS coming in, I just didn't look close enough and it had been moved a bit.  But I have a hard time buying that the closeup(s) of it on deck are the bottom of the tank with the octaweb.  That octaweb is somewhere below the deck and its no longer shapely after bashing through the deck.  I think what we're looking at is the top end of the tank and the black center coloration is the area that houses the manhole / access hatch.  My visual theory for its being relatively unscathed is that the whole machine was coming down tail first at an impressive velocity (Vi) and when it hit the pressure vessel that is the tank went kaboom as we've seen and in doing so the top end of the tank and interstage were accelerated axially up relative to the stage at a speed relative to the stage of very roughly Vi while the sides of the tank departed radially (from pressure) and downward from pre-impact velocity.  This left the top of the stage somewhere above the deck with not much horizontal speed and a vertical speed much lower than it had prior to the impact, either + or -, and it fell from there.

Elon,

You'll have fools on the internet making silly speculations / assertions such as this until you release the video!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 03/26/2016 06:13 am
if i had to guess i think im going with kablooma's theory on it being the bottom of the tank/top of octo web.

the engines all probably got trash compacted but the octoweb is the beefiest part and wouldnt be moving very far.

i think its possible that under the tarp one of the legs is still attached to the octoweb
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/26/2016 09:19 am
Quote
i think its possible that under the tarp one of the legs is still attached to the octoweb

That would make sense, as the crater looks like the stage may have been tilted WRT the barge when it hit. So the leg farthest from the deck when it hit would have a chance of staying attached to the base of the stage. Meanwhile, the engines on the oppositie side took the brunt of the impact.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/26/2016 09:40 am
Another reason I believe it's the aft end of the stage: i think we see one of the anti-vortex baffles at the center where the propellant exits the tank. Compare to the in-tank photo of the second stage LOX tank. Different tank, of course, but same design principle. Baffles highlighted in yellow.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 03/26/2016 12:22 pm
The piece is from top of stage it has grid fins attached and we are probably looking at the inside of LOX tank very top part of it that is still attached to interstage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/26/2016 12:36 pm
Where are you seeing grid fins, Ohsin? Dorkmo's highlight of a leg looks like a leg:

(http://public.cyndyclayton.fastmail.us/ASDS/2016-03-09%20OCISLY%20leg%20600w.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/26/2016 12:58 pm
Grid fins in yellow?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 03/26/2016 01:07 pm
Grid fins, interstage seam and manhole highlighted.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 03/26/2016 01:27 pm
Ohsin is correct - definitely a grid fin on lower right. However I'm not sure this is the same piece as being discussed under light tarp.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 03/26/2016 02:17 pm
Dirt and sunlight making it look different. At bottom both have wall peeling off slightly and bumps under tarp are similar on both. Too good in shape to be bottom of stage and the rim should have hint of those windows/holes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/26/2016 03:28 pm
However I'm not sure this is the same piece as being discussed under light tarp.

Below is a detail from one of Marek's first photos that shows the gray tarp covering the top of the stage w/ grid fins, and behind the rolls of black sheets is the white tarp used (later - not as large) to cover the bottom of the stage with one leg.

(http://public.cyndyclayton.fastmail.us/ASDS/2016-03-09%20OCISLY%20Tarps%20600w.jpg) 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/26/2016 04:11 pm
I'm not sure about the grid fins I'm seeing or not in these images.  But I'm still leaning toward thinking this is the top.  Because a) Kabloona's anti-swirl baffles don't convince my eyes that they are anything more than weld seams, b) Ohsin's closeup (and also kabloona's above) shows a high density circular bolt pattern which is indicative of an access hatch vs. the tank cam images of the bottom of the tank which show no such bolted joint.

Also, Kabloona's yellow lined image shows the bottom of the LOX tank which is a bit different from the bottom of the fuel tank in that the fuel tank has (at least when intact) the large diameter LOX feed tube going through it on the side we are potentially seeing.  We don't see remnants of that LOX tube in the image which may be due to tarp coverage or it may be due to that tube having been ripped cleanly off.  But the prevailing preponderance of my ponderance is that we would see something to indicate that that tube had been there if it was the bottom of the tank we are looking at and we don't.

And separately, notice in the foreground of Cindy's image (and others as well) we see a largish chunk of tank section.  Its completely black.  And certainly more blackened than any part of the exterior of the recovered O-2 booster.  That may be from post crash fire.  Or it may be a preview of how we expect to see our stages looking after a ripping hot re-entry.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 03/26/2016 05:20 pm
boy im not sure. i want to agree with johnny that these are probably two different ends of the rocket. but its hard to piece much evidence together from the one low res image with what appears to be a lighter color tarp. could be lighting? or one side is a different color than the other? the way it looks like a leg could just be it pulled taught out to cover something else. theres a little bump that could be another gridfin on top. hard to image we wouldnt have a nice picture showing both ends at the same time.

the part that oshin highlighted are for sure gridfins.

i think there might also be a piece that is a little more than half of a leg sitting out there too.

edit: thinking about it more, its hard to imagine that the octoweb bulkhead would look that good after crushing throught the deck. and perhaps wildly unlikely that it and the interstage bulkhead would look appear in similar condition. perhaps it could have been one or the other but the chances of them being mistaken for each other seems impossible.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/26/2016 09:11 pm
the part that oshin highlighted are for sure gridfins.
I had trouble seeing it in the images that Ohsin and Kabloona were pointing to but when I went back to the source image from Marek, I can't agree more, that's a grid fin for sure on the right at deck level and by logical extension what they point to on the left is a grid fin.

And they don't put grid fins on the bottom of the machine.

i think there might also be a piece that is a little more than half of a leg sitting out there too.
Yea, that was my kinda sorta thought as well.  Along with thinking that the perforated looking rectangular part near it must be for anti-slosh.

edit: thinking about it more, its hard to imagine that the octoweb bulkhead would look that good after crushing throught the deck. and perhaps wildly unlikely that it and the interstage bulkhead would look appear in similar condition. perhaps it could have been one or the other but the chances of them being mistaken for each other seems impossible.
Yep.  The octaweb area is smithereened.

Can you imagine being those upgraded leg lock collets all locked in place, proud and happy, ready to do their job right and then the surprise they must have had when they were hit with a barge at that speed?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cambrianera on 03/27/2016 11:03 am
What do you think the circled feature is?
if the part we see is the bottom of the tank, the feature is the attachment of leg's telescopic cylinder.
I cannot think to another feature passing "through" the wall of the tank this way.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 03/27/2016 02:23 pm
LOX umbilical connection/vent?

The thing right under your circle is very very clearly a grid fin.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cambrianera on 03/27/2016 03:00 pm
LOX umbilical connection/vent?

The thing right under your circle is very very clearly a grid fin.

Not a LOX umbilical, propellant feeding for first stage comes from bottom; seems too low for upper vent.

The grid fin is here and very clear; does not mean it is attached to something, specially after a "landing" so hard that punched a hole in barge deck.
I believe that grid fin is a detached, collected piece.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: apirie98 on 03/27/2016 04:07 pm
Looking back at some of Marek's photos I think that we've seen both the top and bottom of the stage. I'm fairly convinced by that leg shape under the white tarp as well as the (definitely at least two) grid fins under the black tarp. I checked up on the fin orientation in the picture and it seems like it could well be attached to that part of the stage.

Looking back at the black tarp pictures I think i see more than one section of the stage under there. There's clearly what looks to be the top of the stage - annotated red in the images below - complete with what looks like some buckling  of the stage as well. Although it's really pushing it I also see a rectangular-shaped mark on the stage. Going out on a whim I think this might be the bottom stripe of the flag at the top of the stage. But i'm really not too sure. Looks too square to just be dirt, and sort of looks a bit red as well.

What I also see is another stage sectiron highlighted yellow - it definitely looks like a cylindrical section of some sort. And it's situated on/in/near the hole in the barge. It looks to me like this may be the bottom end of the stage, or at least the octoweb. Considering that it's a pretty hefty lump of metal it seems unlikely that it woud've simply disappeared off the barge into the sea. What's more I see what I believe is the raceway (the inside side?) on that piece of skin by the yellow area (highlight green.) The tarp seems to go over part of this as if it was still attached to something. Could this still have been attached to the bottom of the stage at the time?

Assuming that all the above happens to be by some miracle correct, I think the bottom of the stage bedded into the barge deck and whole stage folded in and exploded, resulting in the rocket ending as it did with octoweb in the hole, top of stage close by and parts everywhere, but more or less logo side down(ish - some of the SPACEX logo was over the broken thruster.) When in the port the wreckage was removed - the top end of the stage being craned off and taken away (seems to just disappear in the photos) and the bottom end being temporarily dragged out of the hole (see drag/scrape marks on the deck) and then covered in the white tarp, which we see in the later images.

</speculation>
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: thor1872 on 03/27/2016 04:11 pm
Octaweb ?

https://imgur.com/a/aYUJY 1:Gif 4.5Mo 2: picture
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/27/2016 05:25 pm
Octaweb ?

Nice find.  You clearly have a case.  But its also the case that we believe the rocket was coming down tail first, the octaweb is at the tail end, and something did serious damage to the 9/16" (14mm) steel deck.  Hmmm.

Perhaps in addition to finding a way around the drone ban (such as taking Disney cruises) we also need a tarp penetrating microwave imager.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 03/27/2016 05:49 pm
The *nozzles and chamber and turbopumps* are at the tail end.  The octoweb is above that.  I think there's plenty of opportunity for the business end of the rocket to do serious damage to the deck without disrupting the integrity of the octoweb.  The combustion chamber has to be a pretty strong chunk of metal, considering the pressures it must contain.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/27/2016 06:37 pm
Which brings up the question, what is this octaweb we all talk of?  Images are hard to come by.  Here is the closest thing found on the first page of a google image search.  To me the octaweb is a structure consisting of plate aluminum stock which extends from the engine throat to the bottom dome of the fuel tank in which all structural members are aligned with the long axis of the rocket.  There is a circular member around the perimeter which aligns with tank walls but only goes partway down.  There are radial members which go between engines for both structure and to contain an engine failure or fire to one compartment. These go to the bottom of the octaweb at the engine throat. I presume each of these radial members align directly under one of the tank weld seams but not necessarily so.  The radial members need to join at the center for structural reasons but there is also an engine at the center and the tank bottom bulges down at the center so I expect the vertical dimension of the octaweb has been trimmed there and doublers have been added.  This is one of two reasons the center engine is lower than the other engines, the other reason being that the center one needs to gimbal fully while the others sleep.  I don't think there is much horizontal structure to it, that the engines somehow impart their thrust forces into the vertical walls directly.  The only horizontal panels I think are there are the panels at the bottom of the octaweb which probably don't have much structural function, but serve to contain fires surrounding an individual engine and to keep out re-entry heat.  In other words, I see the bottom of the octaweb as being at the throat of the engine and the top of the octaweb extending only the minimum possible distance above the tops of the engines.  With respect to the impact, I see the nozzles hitting first, then the bottom of the octaweb, followed very quickly by the combustion chambers as the octaweb shortens then the pumps.  I don't see the octaweb surviving and the engines not or the other way around.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 03/27/2016 06:41 pm
What do you think the circled feature is?
if the part we see is the bottom of the tank, the feature is the attachment of leg's telescopic cylinder.
I cannot think to another feature passing "through" the wall of the tank this way.

Attachment point is way above on RP1 tank from bottom it can't be that.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33788.msg1370037#msg1370037

Attaching top view of stage for reference on what that feature could be. Also a relevant view from recovered stage.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1476/24175842475_57833a78ff_o.jpg
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cambrianera on 03/27/2016 06:53 pm

Attachment point is way above on RP1 tank from bottom it can't be that.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33788.msg1370037#msg1370037


Thanks, these pictures shows clearly that the attachment point is about two meters above the bottom of the tank (and no, not way above).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cambrianera on 03/27/2016 06:55 pm
Which brings up the question, what is this octaweb we all talk of?

This.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/27/2016 08:35 pm
Regarding the grid fin, IIRC, its outer shape is not rectangular.  The side away from the rocket is, but the side near the body (where the attachment stem is) has two large chamfers to it.

Does this match what we see under the tarp?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/27/2016 08:45 pm
Below is a classic Saturday Night Live skit from 1979 titled "What the Hell Is That?", with a much younger Bill Murray and Steve Martin. Please don't take it the wrong way, after awhile I just couldn't help but think of it, having no more theories of my own to add to the current discussion.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=872_1313749431
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 03/27/2016 10:22 pm

Attachment point is way above on RP1 tank from bottom it can't be that.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33788.msg1370037#msg1370037


Thanks, these pictures shows clearly that the attachment point is about two meters above the bottom of the tank (and no, not way above).

I think its more than 3 meters which is a lot. Also don't forget the riveted seam, rest of interstage which is under tarp and the other grid fin most of which I think is sheared off. Attached a comparison with features that are somewhat similar to me(visible when enlarged).

Edit: '3' is just about part not orientation of it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/27/2016 10:52 pm
Regarding the grid fin, IIRC, its outer shape is not rectangular.  The outer side is, but the side near the body (and the near the attachment stem) has two large chamfers to it.

Does this match what we see under the tarp?

No. Ohsin's closeups don't either.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 03/27/2016 10:56 pm
Which brings up the question, what is this octaweb we all talk of?  Images are hard to come by.  Here is the closest thing found on the first page of a google image search.  To me the octaweb is a structure consisting of plate aluminum stock which extends from the engine throat to the bottom dome of the fuel tank in which all structural members are aligned with the long axis of the rocket..... (snip)

IIRC the Octoweb is made of titanium.  Musk discussed the thrust structure of the Falcon 1 as being made of titanium and being sufficiently expensive that its recovery would have by itself justified attempting to recover the first stage.

(Kudos to anyone with sufficiently heightened google-fu to be able to locate that quote, which is from more than a decade ago.

A titanium structure just might be able to survive intact, but not undamaged, from an impact with steel like this.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/27/2016 10:58 pm
Regarding the grid fin, IIRC, its outer shape is not rectangular.  The outer side is, but the side near the body (and the near the attachment stem) has two large chamfers to it.

Does this match what we see under the tarp?

No. Ohsin's closeups don't either.
So either this is a grid fin in a misleading orientation, or a partial grid fin, or something else.

One possibility is that this is a never seen before core of a composite leg sandwich....  But for the skin to be laminated like that, it would take a very odd application of force.

My money is still on a grid fin, but I'm noting the discrepancy...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 03/27/2016 11:10 pm
Regarding the grid fin, IIRC, its outer shape is not rectangular.  The outer side is, but the side near the body (and the near the attachment stem) has two large chamfers to it.

Does this match what we see under the tarp?

No. Ohsin's closeups don't either.
So either this is a grid fin in a misleading orientation, or a partial grid fin, or something else.

One possibility is that this is a never seen before core of a composite leg sandwich....  But for the skin to be laminated like that, it would take a very odd application of force.

My money is still on a grid fin, but I'm noting the discrepancy...

Grid Fin in background has its under side facing us , mangled Grid Fin under interstage is rotated 180 and folded 'up'. Another Grid Fin could be under tarp in its normal folded position. Also I have no clue about the walls of lox tank does it have layers that could peel away?

Edit: Mangled fin could have been in deployed position just jutting out when whole upper portion of stage crashed upon it that would explain it being mangled and being buried.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/27/2016 11:52 pm
So either this is a grid fin in a misleading orientation...

That's what it is, I can see it now. One of the corners of the fin that is normally lopped off at an angle closer to the rocket body is the angle top left in the wreckage photo. Looking closely you can see the actual grid that runs perpendicular to that angled edge. It helps to compare to a good closeup of a normal fin. Now I'm thinking it's still attached too. Edited to add crop of Apirie98's photo, with angle in ref at bottom of his red circle.

(http://public.cyndyclayton.fastmail.us/ASDS/fins_extended%20crop.jpg)          (http://public.cyndyclayton.fastmail.us/ASDS/fin%20extended%20wreckage.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/28/2016 02:18 am
So either this is a grid fin in a misleading orientation...

That's what it is, I can see it now. One of the corners of the fin that is normally lopped off at an angle closer to the rocket body is the angle top left in the wreckage photo. Looking closely you can see the actual grid that runs perpendicular to that angled edge. It helps to compare to a good closeup of a normal fin. Now I'm thinking it's still attached too. Edited to add crop of Apirie98's photo, with angle in ref at bottom of his red circle.

(http://public.cyndyclayton.fastmail.us/ASDS/fins_extended%20crop.jpg)          (http://public.cyndyclayton.fastmail.us/ASDS/fin%20extended%20wreckage.jpg)

Playing with the contrast, the cross-hatch pattern is clear, as well as the two parallel long ribs.

What I perceive as lack of chamfers is perspective.  If I use the grid pattern to figure out the viewing angle (note that they are close to perpendicular, which means that find is more "face on" than I'd assumed) then suddenly the chamfer is obvious.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 03/28/2016 02:25 am
Which brings up the question, what is this octaweb we all talk of?  Images are hard to come by.  Here is the closest thing found on the first page of a google image search.  To me the octaweb is a structure consisting of plate aluminum stock which extends from the engine throat to the bottom dome of the fuel tank in which all structural members are aligned with the long axis of the rocket.  There is a circular member around the perimeter which aligns with tank walls but only goes partway down.  There are radial members which go between engines for both structure and to contain an engine failure or fire to one compartment. These go to the bottom of the octaweb at the engine throat. I presume each of these radial members align directly under one of the tank weld seams but not necessarily so.  The radial members need to join at the center for structural reasons but there is also an engine at the center and the tank bottom bulges down at the center so I expect the vertical dimension of the octaweb has been trimmed there and doublers have been added.  This is one of two reasons the center engine is lower than the other engines, the other reason being that the center one needs to gimbal fully while the others sleep.  I don't think there is much horizontal structure to it, that the engines somehow impart their thrust forces into the vertical walls directly.  The only horizontal panels I think are there are the panels at the bottom of the octaweb which probably don't have much structural function, but serve to contain fires surrounding an individual engine and to keep out re-entry heat.  In other words, I see the bottom of the octaweb as being at the throat of the engine and the top of the octaweb extending only the minimum possible distance above the tops of the engines.  With respect to the impact, I see the nozzles hitting first, then the bottom of the octaweb, followed very quickly by the combustion chambers as the octaweb shortens then the pumps.  I don't see the octaweb surviving and the engines not or the other way around.
I think you are confusing the bottom of the containment structure with the octogrid.  The octogrid carries the thrust loads, hence the "strong part" is above the combustion chamber.

Or am I wrong? Is it actually the nozzle, not the combustion chamber, which is the source of the thrust force?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/28/2016 02:50 am
Which brings up the question, what is this octaweb we all talk of?  Images are hard to come by.  Here is the closest thing found on the first page of a google image search.  To me the octaweb is a structure consisting of plate aluminum stock which extends from the engine throat to the bottom dome of the fuel tank in which all structural members are aligned with the long axis of the rocket.  There is a circular member around the perimeter which aligns with tank walls but only goes partway down.  There are radial members which go between engines for both structure and to contain an engine failure or fire to one compartment. These go to the bottom of the octaweb at the engine throat. I presume each of these radial members align directly under one of the tank weld seams but not necessarily so.  The radial members need to join at the center for structural reasons but there is also an engine at the center and the tank bottom bulges down at the center so I expect the vertical dimension of the octaweb has been trimmed there and doublers have been added.  This is one of two reasons the center engine is lower than the other engines, the other reason being that the center one needs to gimbal fully while the others sleep.  I don't think there is much horizontal structure to it, that the engines somehow impart their thrust forces into the vertical walls directly.  The only horizontal panels I think are there are the panels at the bottom of the octaweb which probably don't have much structural function, but serve to contain fires surrounding an individual engine and to keep out re-entry heat.  In other words, I see the bottom of the octaweb as being at the throat of the engine and the top of the octaweb extending only the minimum possible distance above the tops of the engines.  With respect to the impact, I see the nozzles hitting first, then the bottom of the octaweb, followed very quickly by the combustion chambers as the octaweb shortens then the pumps.  I don't see the octaweb surviving and the engines not or the other way around.
I think you are confusing the bottom of the containment structure with the octogrid.  The octogrid carries the thrust loads, hence the "strong part" is above the combustion chamber.

Or am I wrong? Is it actually the nozzle, not the combustion chamber, which is the source of the thrust force?

I think both.  The nozzle is pushing upwards (remember that in addition to just pressure, the flow accelerates as it expands, awkwardly, so there's got to be a reaction back on the nozzle wall to counter that) and the chamber certainly generates a force (simple vee-m-dot).  All are channeled to the engine structure though, which in turn pushes on the octoweb, which distributes it to the tank structure.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/28/2016 03:02 am
I think you are confusing the bottom of the containment structure with the octogrid.  The octogrid carries the thrust loads, hence the "strong part" is above the combustion chamber.

Or am I wrong? Is it actually the nozzle, not the combustion chamber, which is the source of the thrust force?
Golly we're wandering from ASDSing and I think I started it.  Whether the thrust is generated here or there in the engine the engine mounts are toward the top of the chamber and their connection to the octaweb is above that level.  The interface with the throat area is only a flexible blanket material.  But what you are calling containment structure may or may not be one and the same as the octaweb and could carry load (and be containment) even if its far below the engine attachment point and far below the tank.  Or not.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/28/2016 03:42 am
I think you are confusing the bottom of the containment structure with the octogrid.  The octogrid carries the thrust loads, hence the "strong part" is above the combustion chamber.

Or am I wrong? Is it actually the nozzle, not the combustion chamber, which is the source of the thrust force?
Golly we're wandering from ASDSing and I think I started it.  Whether the thrust is generated here or there in the engine the engine mounts are toward the top of the chamber and their connection to the octaweb is above that level.  The interface with the throat area is only a flexible blanket material.  But what you are calling containment structure may or may not be one and the same as the octaweb and could carry load (and be containment) even if its far below the engine attachment point and far below the tank.  Or not.

I believe the barge structure and the octoweb can be considered as a single entity now...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarsInMyLifetime on 03/28/2016 04:16 am
I believe the barge structure and the octoweb can be considered as a single entity now...

Which can only remind us of these lines from Hudsucker Proxy, "Say, buddy, who's the most liquid businessman on the street? Waring Hudsucker! Say buddy, when is a sidewalk fully dressed? When it's Waring Hudsucker!" "Waring Hudsucker is abstract art on Madison Avenue."
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/28/2016 04:31 am
All this wreckage identification stuff is fascinating[1]. But isn't tracking the barge readiness more important? How IS the barge coming along? Any new spy shots of that? How much time do they have left now and what tasks?

1 - I said that with a straight face, honest.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cambrianera on 03/28/2016 09:27 am

IIRC the Octoweb is made of titanium.  Musk discussed the thrust structure of the Falcon 1 as being made of titanium and being sufficiently expensive that its recovery would have by itself justified attempting to recover the first stage.


Still available on SpaceX site, first of updates.
http://www.spacex.com/news/2004/june-2004-july-2004
Thrust Frame The engine thrust frame weight has come in significantly better than our initial baseline for Falcon I. This is due in part to switching from steel to high strength titanium and in part to a better design. Although we are spending more than planned on this piece of equipment, we expect to be able to reuse it essentially forever (i.e. thousands of flights), so long as the stage itself is recovered.

The corner fittings are precision machined and then welded under argon to the gun drilled tubes. The whole frame only weighs 74.8 lbs and is shown below going through structural qualification. We loaded it to 150,000 lbs (almost twice maximum flight load) in the axial direction and applied max gimbal and TVC loads. Nine limit and ultimate load cycles were applied with no indications of yield (strains all returned to zero).


Attached picture saved offline some time ago.

IMHO no relationship with octaweb.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/28/2016 12:54 pm
Interesting, that thrust structure was tested to 150,000 lbf back in 2004 which was then 2x Merlin thrust.  Now Merlins make more than that so it would have been redesigned a bit by now but the basic shape seems the same.  Its upside down to installed direction, the four feet would attach to the vehicle and in my opinion that connection is to the octaweb.  What else is there to connect to?  The geometry of this part is probably one of the things that was commonized when they went from tic tac toe to octaweb layout.  I figger that 8 of the engines use one design of this and the two center engines use another design.

Safe harbor statement (for Lar): The structure described does have an impact on the ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/28/2016 02:55 pm
Safe harbor statement (for Lar): The structure described does have an impact on the ASDS.

"Safe Harbor"??
"an impact" ??

I see what you did there. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/28/2016 10:19 pm
Golly we're wandering from ASDSing and I think I started it.  Whether the thrust is generated here or there in the engine the engine mounts are toward the top of the chamber and their connection to the octaweb is above that level.  The interface with the throat area is only a flexible blanket material.  But what you are calling containment structure may or may not be one and the same as the octaweb and could carry load (and be containment) even if its far below the engine attachment point and far below the tank.  Or not.

I believe the barge structure and the octoweb can be considered as a single entity now...

So.. if they recover a Grid Fin and re-use it on a new stage - does that count??  Maybe SpX should focus on collecting and re-using parts recovered from barge-RUD and work up to recovering a whole stage from there?!?   ::) ;D

Slow days indeed over Easter...  Hopefully someone will post some current photos showing progress sometime soon.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: thor1872 on 03/29/2016 12:59 am
Hopefully someone will post some current photos showing progress sometime soon.
new satellite antenna
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/29/2016 01:09 am
new satellite antenna
s
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 03/29/2016 01:34 am

Hopefully someone will post some current photos showing progress sometime soon.
new satellite antenna
Ah, a certain CyndyC will be delighted...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/29/2016 02:50 am

Hopefully someone will post some current photos showing progress sometime soon.
new satellite antenna
Ah, a certain CyndyC will be delighted...

Haha, yes, I am THRILLED :)! And they have one on each end now, just as I guessed they might benefit from having. I can easily give up being able to ID the bow for more reliable landing coverage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 03/29/2016 03:59 am
Looks to me like they're doing some upgrades along with the repairs - two sat domes instead of one. I wonder if this will allow two video feeds?

I wonder if there will be a shakedown sortie after these repairs? My guess is they'll want one.


Hopefully someone will post some current photos showing progress sometime soon.
new satellite antenna
Ah, a certain CyndyC will be delighted...

Haha, yes, I am THRILLED :)! And they have one on each end now, just as I guessed they might benefit from having. I can easily give up being able to ID the bow for more reliable landing coverage.

A few easy ways to ID the bow are, if see from above, the name is on the port (left) side. Also, the aft blast wall is where the four leaf clover is. If seen side-on, the bow has the bow wall, which is vertical and all the way forward. And, there are two strakes (?) which look almost like large rudders under the stern. :)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: thor1872 on 03/29/2016 07:30 am
Looks to me like they're doing some upgrades along with the repairs - two sat domes instead of one. I wonder if this will allow two video feeds?
He always had two antennas. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 03/29/2016 10:31 am

So.. if they recover a Grid Fin and re-use it on a new stage - does that count??  Maybe SpX should focus on collecting and re-using parts recovered from barge-RUD and work up to recovering a whole stage from there?!?   ::) ;D


Just a point.  RUD is only a term used for an engine coming apart and not a generic term for an accident or vehicle crash.  And it is a Spacex only term
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/29/2016 01:21 pm
He always had two antennas. ;)

So the bow VSAT is in the center and the stern VSAT is off to starboard, the latter just above the thruster lines that were damaged, and showing damage of its own in Marek's panorama. The bow VSAT appeared undamaged yet was replaced at the same time, probably meaning even though there have been two VSATs all along, there will be improved odds for unbroken reception.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 03/29/2016 03:05 pm
I can't site a source, but I remember engineers using R.U.D. in the eighties. Musk himself has used the term in a tweet to describe the fate of the returning stage that ran out of hydraulic fluid.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 03/29/2016 04:15 pm
 One antenna can have it's signal interrupted by the returning rocket. Two antenna systems can be completely independent and actually go to different suppliers, be automatically switched if one is obstructed or has other issues, or have simultaneous links on the same sat. They can also be S and Ku since KU is usually better bandwidth and S is better in bad weather. Or, they just might want redundancy. Intellian wouldn't have been my first choice for reliable gear.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: LouScheffer on 03/29/2016 06:07 pm

Just a point.  RUD is only a term used for an engine coming apart and not a generic term for an accident or vehicle crash.  And it is a Spacex only term
Here is a  quote from a government manual, using the same acronym, with the same meaning, for a gun accident (https://books.google.com/books?id=86zpYQO5yYcC&q=Rapid%20unintentional%20Disassembly&dq=Rapid%20unintentional%20Disassembly&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAjgKahUKEwisiKjUh_TGAhWIGx4KHYQCC-o) in 1970.  (They used "unintentional" rather than "unscheduled", but the meaning is identical.) So RUD has been around for a while, and used for other than engine accidents.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 03/29/2016 06:07 pm
Just a point.  RUD is only a term used for an engine coming apart and not a generic term for an accident or vehicle crash.  And it is a Spacex only term

Just a point. RUD is used by multiple folks at SpaceX to describe more than just an engine coming apart (as so aptly demonstrated by a tweet from Elon describing a landing rocket stage coming apart - not just the engine).
Also, it's a pre-existing term, adopted by SpaceX, being used in a thread where the subject is (surprise, surprise!) SpaceX.

Jim, my two cents on this: accept the fact that SpaceX sometimes does things differently (including the use of terms). You constantly pointing out that SpaceX does not (always) adhere to industry standards is symptomatic for the state of denial found in a substantial part of the OldSpace community. Like it or not: SpaceX is disrupting the old state of affairs and that disruption is highly likely to be permanent. Along come several new views and ways of doing things and even new (or, in this case, dusted-off) terminology. Only those folks clinging to the old ways too much will continue to bleat over unavoidable changes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 03/29/2016 06:35 pm

So.. if they recover a Grid Fin and re-use it on a new stage - does that count??  Maybe SpX should focus on collecting and re-using parts recovered from barge-RUD and work up to recovering a whole stage from there?!?   ::) ;D


Just a point.  RUD is only a term used for an engine coming apart and not a generic term for an accident or vehicle crash.  And it is a Spacex only term
The U can stand for several things, but the term has been used since the 70s at least.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/29/2016 06:47 pm
Arguing over who said RUD first or whether it's standard or whether using it is a sign that you're not OldSpace etc etc....

Is boring.

So let's not. Thanks.

(I was wearing my mod hat when I said that and posts below this line get trimmed)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/30/2016 12:20 am
So now we can get back to the discussion of RSR...as in the Rapid Scheduled Reassembly of OCISLY.

7 days until she needs to leave port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 03/30/2016 03:08 am
Intellian wouldn't have been my first choice for reliable gear.

What would be your choice for reliable gear, Nomadd? Is it possible SpaceX has been using Intellian gear elsewhere and has been happy with the performance? I don't know what they use to beam down from the rocket, but have yet to see that feed go out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 03/30/2016 03:28 am
Intellian wouldn't have been my first choice for reliable gear.

What would be your choice for reliable gear, Nomadd? Is it possible SpaceX has been using Intellian gear elsewhere and have been happy with the performance? I don't know what they use to beam down from the rocket, but have yet to see that feed go out.
Seatel, which Intellian copied most of their gear from, but has much better technical support.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/30/2016 03:48 am
IIRC, the first photos of the original ASDS (Just Read the Instructions) showed TracPhone VSAT antenna domes. I guess they've moved on. Maybe the new ones are more vibration-resistant.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/30/2016 05:12 am
IIRC, the first photos of the original ASDS (Just Read the Instructions) showed TracPhone VSAT antenna domes. I guess they've moved on. Maybe the new ones are more vibration-resistant.

... or cheaper to replace ...  :)
(something something quantity discount)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 03/30/2016 05:21 am
IIRC, the first photos of the original ASDS (Just Read the Instructions) showed TracPhone VSAT antenna domes. I guess they've moved on. Maybe the new ones are more vibration-resistant.
I've been out of the business for a while, but KVHs Tracphones use to be big on selling services, where Intellian or Seatels bigger Marine VSATs were more generic dishes. Lots of people use them to access the same bandwidth they get on their land VSATs, and avoid the ridiculously expensive sea based services. 3 megabits up and down is a pretty common package with 1M or 1.2M. Smaller Tracphones are pretty common for telephone, messaging and lower speed data.
 The barge looks like both antennas have 360 coverage, which makes things a helluva lot simpler than on most ships.
 Speaking of iPhones again, I used an iPhone 3s with a 3 axis vibration recorder app to OK spots for those dishes and smaller sat antennas on the masts. That and all the audio and scope apps I had saved us a fortune on test equipment.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dgates on 03/31/2016 12:00 am
How far offshore is the ASDS expected to be?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/31/2016 01:43 am
Anybody feel like dropping by Port Canaveral and seeing how things are going?  We're going to need that ASDS ready to go soon.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 03/31/2016 02:07 am
How far offshore is the ASDS expected to be?
About 185 statute miles from the point of launchness and about 172 miles from nearest land.  Curiously enough, when I started swinging a Google Earth measuring radial around the ASDS hold point I found that the ASDS will be in the center of a very nice shoreline arc which extends from Charleston to the top of Cape Canaveral.  Along that stretch the distance from land to the ASDS tends to fall within a single digit (+/-) range.   That's oddly interesting.  I tried to draw a circle on the image to show this but it can't be done very well because of map projection non-linearity.  I suggest having a go at it in Go Oogle Earth, the point is 30.5 deg N, 78.5 deg W.

Here is the map I posted a few pages back
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1507418#msg1507418 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1507418#msg1507418)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dgates on 03/31/2016 07:50 pm
Darn, probably too far out to see from 8000-10000 feet I think.  I am going to be watching the launch while flying my plane.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 03/31/2016 08:08 pm
How far offshore is the ASDS expected to be?
About 185 statute miles from the point of launchness and about 172 miles from nearest land. 
Darn, probably too far out to see from 8000-10000 feet I think.  I am going to be watching the launch while flying my plane.

Correct
The horizon from 3 km = 10 kft around a 6378 km radius Earth is 197 km = 121 miles
You will only be able to see down to 4 km altitude at 185 miles distance, so the whole landing burn will be out of sight.
You would have to be ~23 kft to put the ASDS on the horizon, ~18 kft to see the start of the landing burn.

edit:  Or you have to fly more than 60 miles off-shore at 10 kft..
Kabloona has a point.  Anyone can watch a launch by driving up.
You can't get that close to the launch with an airplane anyways.  Optimize for the landing.
Just don't cause a range hold or people here and elsewhere will be .... unhappy with you.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/31/2016 10:23 pm
Quote
I am going to be watching the launch while flying my plane.

Heck, you can watch the launch even without a plane.

How about watching the *landing* while flying your plane? That would be more fun.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 04/01/2016 12:32 am
Quote
I am going to be watching the launch while flying my plane.

Heck, you can watch the launch even without a plane.

How about watching the *landing* while flying your plane? That would be more fun.  ;)

Launches are so boring they no longer even get mentioned...   Seen one, seen them all...

But landings, man, landings!!!!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/01/2016 12:37 am

So.. if they recover a Grid Fin and re-use it on a new stage - does that count??  Maybe SpX should focus on collecting and re-using parts recovered from barge-RUD and work up to recovering a whole stage from there?!?   ::) ;D


Just a point.  RUD is only a term used for an engine coming apart and not a generic term for an accident or vehicle crash.  And it is a Spacex only term
The U can stand for several things, but the term has been used since the 70s at least.

For the record, I typed "RUD" as an abbreviation for "rapid unplanned disassembly" to save typing it all out (like I just have!  :o) (a) not particularly caring who used it when, where or why, (b) aware you lot all know what it means and (c) not wishing to make my post unnecessarily wordy..

EDIT: Anyways, yes, who's got some photos to share?!?  They must be getting close now! :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dgates on 04/01/2016 01:19 am
Well. Yeah, I was hoping to be able to see the landing, but hey, I will take the launch!

And yes, I intend to be VERY careful regarding airspace, including pre-coordination with Orlando Approach.  I will be actively radar tracked and if I get too close they will vector me as needed. ( IAW, yell at me to turn away).  I am NOT going to be "that guy"! Still should be a lot of fun!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: hans_ober on 04/01/2016 05:26 am
Well. Yeah, I was hoping to be able to see the landing, but hey, I will take the launch!

And yes, I intend to be VERY careful regarding airspace, including pre-coordination with Orlando Approach.  I will be actively radar tracked and if I get too close they will vector me as needed. ( IAW, yell at me to turn away).  I am NOT going to be "that guy"! Still should be a lot of fun!

Don't cause a scrub. Doing so will result in another twitter account: Wayward plane?

Remember to post video  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mvpel on 04/01/2016 12:13 pm
"I don't want no scrubs, a scrub is a try who can't win my love from me."
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/01/2016 02:24 pm
Well. Yeah, I was hoping to be able to see the landing, but hey, I will take the launch!

And yes, I intend to be VERY careful regarding airspace, including pre-coordination with Orlando Approach.  I will be actively radar tracked and if I get too close they will vector me as needed. ( IAW, yell at me to turn away).  I am NOT going to be "that guy"! Still should be a lot of fun!
I assume you're flying vfr, hence you can't loiter 60 miles off shore?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/02/2016 02:45 pm
Its been a week since we've had any images other than the grainy ones from the port cam.  I'm withering away for lack of information.  Someone please feed us.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 04/02/2016 03:59 pm
Its been a week since we've had any images other than the grainy ones from the port cam.  I'm withering away for lack of information.  Someone please feed us.

At this point it might help to chip in together and offer to include a free lunch or dinner at Fishlips.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: thor1872 on 04/02/2016 07:26 pm
Its been a week since we've had any images other than the grainy ones from the port cam.  I'm withering away for lack of information.  Someone please feed us.
https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4d2slo/close_up_of_the_spacex_asds_of_course_i_still/
Source: https://twitter.com/Restrantek/status/716303900828164096

Direct link
Picture 1 : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfDSmd7WAAA0qiV.jpg:orig
Picture 2 : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfDR_XeWQAA985_.jpg:orig
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: thor1872 on 04/02/2016 07:32 pm
OCISLY From a Helicopter : http://imgur.com/42k1kjY
Source : https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4d2wk4/ocisly_from_a_helicopter/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/02/2016 07:59 pm
Hole looks like it's been completely covered; good progress.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 04/02/2016 08:09 pm
OCISLY From a Helicopter : http://imgur.com/42k1kjY
Source : https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4d2wk4/ocisly_from_a_helicopter/

Hole is patched... Looks like a test run of the upper left (nearest to hole) thruster was in progress even...
All thrusters look to be down in fact... A bit of paint and she looks ready to go...  8)

On edit... also looks like re-ballasting is ongoing...  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 04/02/2016 08:36 pm
The scar will add character....

Awesome pic
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 04/03/2016 03:33 am
(falcon) chicks dig scars
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 04/03/2016 03:36 am
OCISLY From a Helicopter

"drones are outlawed? fine, we'll get a chopper"

lololol
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: NovaSilisko on 04/03/2016 04:54 pm

Direct link
Picture 1 : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfDSmd7WAAA0qiV.jpg:large
Picture 2 : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfDR_XeWQAA985_.jpg:large

Remember, you can replace :large with :orig for the highest available resolution.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfDSmd7WAAA0qiV.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfDR_XeWQAA985_.jpg:orig
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 04/04/2016 03:56 am
From a document posted (in a western niche of) the Eastern Range topic...

Takes of Marine Mammals Incidental to Specified Activities; Taking Marine Mammals Incidental to Boost-Backs and Landings of Rockets at Vandenberg Air Force Base
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2016/03/31/2016-07191/takes-of-marine-mammals-incidental-to-specified-activities-taking-marine-mammals-incidental-to (https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2016/03/31/2016-07191/takes-of-marine-mammals-incidental-to-specified-activities-taking-marine-mammals-incidental-to)

Quote
In the event that a contingency landing action is required, SpaceX has considered the likelihood of the First Stage missing the barge and landing instead in the Pacific Ocean, and has determined that the likelihood of such an event is so unlikely as to be considered discountable. This is supported by three previous attempts by SpaceX at Falcon 9 First Stage barge landings, none of which have missed the barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/04/2016 08:38 am
IMO, this is the most interesting bit from that document:

Quote
In the event of an unsuccessful barge landing, the First Stage would explode upon impact with the barge; the explosion would not be expected to result in take of marine mammals, as described below. The explosive equivalence with maximum fuel and oxidizer is 503 pounds of trinitrotoluene (TNT) which is capable of a maximum projectile range of 384 m (1,250 ft) from the point of impact. Approximately 25 pieces of debris are expected to remain floating in the water and expected to impact less than 0.46 km2 (114 acres), and the majority of debris would be recovered. All other debris is expected to sink. These 25 pieces of debris are primarily made of Carbon Over Pressure Vessels (COPVs), the LOX fill line, and carbon fiber constructed legs. During previous landing attempts in other locations, SpaceX has performed successful debris recovery. All of the recovered debris would be transported back to Long Beach Harbor for proper disposal. Most of the fuel (estimated 50-150 gallons) is expected to be released onto the barge deck at the location of impact.

So stage explosion = 500 lb bomb, more or less.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 04/04/2016 09:35 am
IMO, this is the most interesting bit from that document:

Quote
In the event of an unsuccessful barge landing, the First Stage would explode upon impact with the barge; the explosion would not be expected to result in take of marine mammals, as described below. The explosive equivalence with maximum fuel and oxidizer is 503 pounds of trinitrotoluene (TNT) which is capable of a maximum projectile range of 384 m (1,250 ft) from the point of impact. Approximately 25 pieces of debris are expected to remain floating in the water and expected to impact less than 0.46 km2 (114 acres), and the majority of debris would be recovered. All other debris is expected to sink. These 25 pieces of debris are primarily made of Carbon Over Pressure Vessels (COPVs), the LOX fill line, and carbon fiber constructed legs. During previous landing attempts in other locations, SpaceX has performed successful debris recovery. All of the recovered debris would be transported back to Long Beach Harbor for proper disposal. Most of the fuel (estimated 50-150 gallons) is expected to be released onto the barge deck at the location of impact.

So stage explosion = 500 lb bomb, more or less.

No. More like a 1500 lb bomb since only a minor fraction of a bomb's mass is the explosive filler.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/04/2016 02:23 pm
No. More like a 1500 lb bomb since only a minor fraction of a bomb's mass is the explosive filler.

No.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 04/04/2016 03:33 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_83_bomb

1000lb US bomb contains 445lbs of explosive... see link above as source...  :o

And now back to your regularly scheduled barge stalking type discussion...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 04/04/2016 03:41 pm
IMO, this is the most interesting bit from that document:
<snip>
So stage explosion = 500 lb bomb, more or less.
This is assuming all of the oxidiser and fuel mix perfectly.
This is not going to happen.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 04/04/2016 03:43 pm
IMO, this is the most interesting bit from that document:
<snip>
So stage explosion = 500 lb bomb, more or less.
This is assuming all of the oxidiser and fuel mix perfectly.
This is not going to happen.


The oxidizer left in the tanks doesn't matter, it is exploding at sea level where there is abundant O2 available.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/04/2016 03:50 pm
In any case, it's pretty clear that the blast is mostly dispersed into the atmosphere and not absorbed by the barge, unlike a direct hit from a bomb.

The only crater produced so far was probably from kinetic energy of the stage impact at high speed, not the propellants going bang...or kaboom, as Elon likes to say.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 04/04/2016 06:07 pm
IMO, this is the most interesting bit from that document:
<snip>
So stage explosion = 500 lb bomb, more or less.
This is assuming all of the oxidiser and fuel mix perfectly.
This is not going to happen.


The oxidizer left in the tanks doesn't matter, it is exploding at sea level where there is abundant O2 available.


If it's just burning atmospheric oxygen, then the explosion is less likely to be a detonation and more of a deflagration.  SpaceX specifically mentioned oxidizer in its report, so it stands to reason that the maximum energy blast would incorporate the remaining oxidizer contents.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/04/2016 06:39 pm
Speaking of booms and marine mammals, let's pause for a moment to remember the poor seal who was subjected to the Government-mandated sonic boom experiment via headphones to see if it would interfere with his (her?) libido.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TalulahRiley/status/320422298618302464

And Elon's hilarious comment:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BHJd3GQCAAA5uqa.png

Can't make this stuff up. The good news is, thanks to the seal's noble sacrifice, SpaceX is on the way to obtaining permission for one year of RTLS attempts at VAFB.

Now back to regular ASDS programming...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MattMason on 04/04/2016 06:52 pm
Speaking of booms and marine mammals, let's pause for a moment to remember the poor seal who was subjected to the Government-mandated sonic boom experiment via headphones to see if it would interfere with his (her?) libido.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TalulahRiley/status/320422298618302464

And Elon's hilarious comment:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BHJd3GQCAAA5uqa.png

Can't make this stuff up. The good news is, thanks to the seal's noble sacrifice, SpaceX has been granted permission for one year of RTLS attempts at VAFB.

Now back to regular ASDS programming...

Made all the more humorous when you realize Talulah Riley was/is Mrs. Elon Musk. (You saw her briefly in the film "Inception").
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: starhawk92 on 04/04/2016 08:02 pm
Anyone want to estimate the time remaining for fixes and repairs to be on station and ready for a Friday launch?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 04/04/2016 08:19 pm
I really don't get the TNT analogy.

All we've seen so far are "soft" conflagrations, and the shock from the bursting pressure vessel.

If the rocket is falling at at some 200 m/s, and it's a 40 m stage, and it never slows down even after starting to crumple, that's still 1/5 of a second for "mix and burn" time. (a.k.a pancaking time) This is an eternity in terms of explosions.

With the rocket slowing down once the concentrated mass hits the deck, it's probably closer to 0.5 second.

If you ignore the LOX and only consider the RP1 being kicked out into the atmosphere, then most definitely you get a slow burn.  This is why fuel-air bomb have to mix first, burn later. in order to get a real explosion.

And 500 lb of TNT....   detonated in contact with the deck...   I think you'd get a bigger hole...

Almost without a doubt the hole was made by punching through, and the following fire ball did almost nothing, though potentially if fuel managed to get into the hole, it may have burned there for a while.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/04/2016 08:22 pm
Quote
If you ignore the LOX and only consider the RP1 being kicked out into the atmosphere, then most definitely you get a slow burn.  This is why fuel-air bomb have to mix first, burn later. in order to get a real explosion.

And 500 lb of TNT....   detonated in contact with the deck...   I think you'd get a bigger hole...

Yes, for ease of calculation they probably assumed a limiting case of fully-mixed LOX/RP-1, knowing you'd never really get there.

It seems the real purpose of the TNT equivalent calculation was to be able to predict the maximum projectile distance of 1250 ft, probably from a look-up table or graph of max distance vs quantity of TNT.

Obviously if you put 500 lbs of TNT on deck, the *local* blast effect would be much different...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/04/2016 08:31 pm
Anyone want to estimate the time remaining for fixes and repairs to be on station and ready for a Friday launch?

They'll need a little over 30 hours transit time, plus setup time on station. I'd say sometime late Wednesday is the comfortable deadline for departure, and possibly wee hours of Thursday morning if they have to cut it really close.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/04/2016 09:03 pm
I'm not used to reading these type statements but the few that I've come across on NSF seem to be not so much science as they are arguments for what the writer wants to do written in sciencey language as a tool of persuasion.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hywel1995 on 04/04/2016 10:00 pm
Matthew Travis on Facebook is reporting activity from the support ships around the ASDS. Might be preparing to leave under the darkness.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/04/2016 10:21 pm
Matthew Travis on Facebook is reporting activity from the support ships around the ASDS. Might be preparing to leave under the darkness.

It's too soon to be heading out to the landing zone tonight. They may just be moving the support ships back over from the Fishlips side of the port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/05/2016 12:18 am
Or a near shore test run tomorrow.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: thor1872 on 04/05/2016 12:27 am
just now http://www.portcanaveralwebcam.com/
https://imgur.com/uf2dreL

Edit: https://imgur.com/sRvdwO9 light on
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/05/2016 01:44 am
Or a near shore test run tomorrow.

And they don't have to leave until after static fire, so if there's a problem with static fire that causes a launch slip, the armada can hang back in port an extra day or two instead of waiting around in the middle of the ocean like they had to do last time. So another reason not to leave until Wednesday at earliest.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 04/05/2016 12:01 pm
Two panoramas from yesterday around 6:30 PM. No activity - either they are done with all repairs, or they are not going to use ASDS for CRS-8.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 04/05/2016 12:17 pm
And GoQuest with opened containers
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Retired Downrange on 04/05/2016 01:15 pm
In the photo of OCISLY it appears that one of the thrusters is removed.

[edit] ...as eriblo points out in next post, I can see the lower unit of the thruster down at water level, my confusion stems from the fact that the view of the vertical shaft is hidden.... I didn't recall this from previous photos.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: eriblo on 04/05/2016 01:21 pm
In the photo of OCISLY it appears that one of the thrusters is removed.
Which one? I believe I can see the three that should be visible - the one to the left is deployed all the way down (look beneath the mount).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 04/05/2016 02:17 pm
Looks like all of the welding and cutting gear is off the deck, probably ready or nearly ready to hit the open sea.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/05/2016 02:46 pm
Or a near shore test run tomorrow.

Bingo. EIII headed over to OCISLY early this morning, then left port, now heading ESE (not towards landing zone). Probably towing OCISLY for test run. Port webcam shows OCISLY berth empty.

Edit: but I will add that the ESE course is following the channel leaving Port Canaveral, so they could later turn northeast toward the landing zone and head there directly. I would have thought they would wait until after stagic fire for departure, but it's *possible* this is the real thing and not just a test run, though they would get there way early.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Blizzzard on 04/05/2016 03:13 pm
If they are going for a test run, and are also cutting it fine for leaving for landing site - could they test then go straight out to the landing site from there?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/05/2016 03:17 pm
I'd expect them to wait until the static fire is complete (later today, hopefully) before leaving for the landing site.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/05/2016 04:00 pm
Someone caught departure on camera:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BD0pGX8BRj2/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: thor1872 on 04/05/2016 05:04 pm
Departure:
https://i.imgur.com/esp7xhF.gifv
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: chrisking0997 on 04/05/2016 05:34 pm
looks like they cleaned up the shamrock before leaving
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 04/05/2016 07:08 pm
Two panoramas from yesterday around 6:30 PM. No activity - either they are done with all repairs, or they are not going to use ASDS for CRS-8.
The images of 2 or 3 days ago showed her still sitting high on the water with a notable tilt towards the bow. The latest pictures show her level and at depth. No tilt.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Mike_1179 on 04/06/2016 01:45 pm
Elsbeth III left port about this time yesterday traveling at ~5 knots, meaning she's towing something. I always say this, but isn't that a bit early to head out?

Looks to me like she's heading toward the landing area, not just a test run off shore.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 04/06/2016 02:00 pm
Pics up above hint they test ran the thrusters in port using one of the GO boats to hold it back...
My opinion is they decided, based on that all was good, any "test run" off shore was likely to be fine...
Go to sea it was decided... EIII headed out...  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/06/2016 02:48 pm
Is it just EIII or is there a "fairing recovery" ship this time as well?  (That one might leave later, since it doesn't have to tow a barge.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/06/2016 03:11 pm
Is it just EIII or is there a "fairing recovery" ship this time as well?  (That one might leave later, since it doesn't have to tow a barge.)

Since Dragon doesn't have fairings, that would be rather odd.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 04/06/2016 03:52 pm
Is it just EIII or is there a "fairing recovery" ship this time as well?  (That one might leave later, since it doesn't have to tow a barge.)

Go Quest departed Port Canaveral at 10:40pm last night... not fairing recovery but support ship to the ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/06/2016 03:58 pm
Go Searcher is stationary on the Fishlip side next to American Champion.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/06/2016 04:01 pm
Is it just EIII or is there a "fairing recovery" ship this time as well?  (That one might leave later, since it doesn't have to tow a barge.)

Since Dragon doesn't have fairings, that would be rather odd.

GO Searcher is still in port, and that fact combined with the lack of fairings on this flight is consistent with our suspicion that Searcher was indeed tracking/chasing fairings on previous flights.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/06/2016 04:25 pm
Is it just EIII or is there a "fairing recovery" ship this time as well?  (That one might leave later, since it doesn't have to tow a barge.)

Since Dragon doesn't have fairings, that would be rather odd.

GO Searcher is still in port, and that fact combined with the lack of fairings on this flight is consistent with our suspicion that Searcher was indeed tracking/chasing fairings on previous flights.
Thanks for turning my stupid question into real insight.  I agree, this is good circumstantial evidence for a fairing chaser role for Go Searcher.

PS. And reasonable evidence *against* that theory if Go Searcher stirs herself to dash out and join the flotilla before the launch.  Good theories are falsifiable!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kaputnik on 04/06/2016 04:55 pm
From a document posted (in a western niche of) the Eastern Range topic...

Takes of Marine Mammals Incidental to Specified Activities; Taking Marine Mammals Incidental to Boost-Backs and Landings of Rockets at Vandenberg Air Force Base
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2016/03/31/2016-07191/takes-of-marine-mammals-incidental-to-specified-activities-taking-marine-mammals-incidental-to (https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2016/03/31/2016-07191/takes-of-marine-mammals-incidental-to-specified-activities-taking-marine-mammals-incidental-to)

Quote
In the event that a contingency landing action is required, SpaceX has considered the likelihood of the First Stage missing the barge and landing instead in the Pacific Ocean, and has determined that the likelihood of such an event is so unlikely as to be considered discountable. This is supported by three previous attempts by SpaceX at Falcon 9 First Stage barge landings, none of which have missed the barge.

That would be a pretty big miss...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/06/2016 04:58 pm
From a document posted (in a western niche of) the Eastern Range topic...

Takes of Marine Mammals Incidental to Specified Activities; Taking Marine Mammals Incidental to Boost-Backs and Landings of Rockets at Vandenberg Air Force Base
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2016/03/31/2016-07191/takes-of-marine-mammals-incidental-to-specified-activities-taking-marine-mammals-incidental-to (https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2016/03/31/2016-07191/takes-of-marine-mammals-incidental-to-specified-activities-taking-marine-mammals-incidental-to)

Quote
In the event that a contingency landing action is required, SpaceX has considered the likelihood of the First Stage missing the barge and landing instead in the Pacific Ocean, and has determined that the likelihood of such an event is so unlikely as to be considered discountable. This is supported by three previous attempts by SpaceX at Falcon 9 First Stage barge landings, none of which have missed the barge.

That would be a pretty big miss...
for Cape launches yes, but this was from a doc about Vandy...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 04/06/2016 10:12 pm
Searcher has been known to leave later though right?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/06/2016 11:35 pm
Searcher has been known to leave later though right?

Yes, Searcher left about 2 days after Quest last time around.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/07/2016 01:42 am
Searcher has been known to leave later though right?

Yes, Searcher left about 2 days after Quest last time around.

IIRC, one of the key "fixes" following the CRS-7 attempt was changes to the flight software to allow Dragon to free itself from a failing stack on the ride uphill and splashdown under it's own parachutes into the keep-out zone near shore.

Perhaps potential 'early' Dragon recovery operations (if required)?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 04/07/2016 01:52 am
(Technically the Dragon _does_ have fairings, but not the kind worth recovering...)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 04/07/2016 08:28 am
(Technically the Dragon _does_ have fairings, but not the kind worth recovering...)
More specifically: they are un-recoverable, as those fairings (for the solar arrays) burn-up upon reentry.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 04/07/2016 11:20 am
(Technically the Dragon _does_ have fairings, but not the kind worth recovering...)
More specifically: they are un-recoverable, as those fairings (for the solar arrays) burn-up upon reentry.

And to be pedantic: They simply aren't worth something more complicated money-wise, whether that be fixed doors that actuate(or something else that never detaches from the dragon) or fairings with an ACS and/or whatever else may be required to survive re-entry and subsequently be recovered.

Edit - Also, does DV2 even have solar fairings?  Aren't all of the solar panels on the trunk?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gadgetmind on 04/07/2016 11:43 am
I bet the drone crews are packing more spare underwear this time around!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/07/2016 03:11 pm
So---is Go Searcher still in port?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/07/2016 03:13 pm
So---is Go Searcher still in port?

Yup. Brunching at Fishlips.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/07/2016 03:25 pm
So---is Go Searcher still in port?

Yup. Brunching at Fishlips.
So "fairing recovery role" theory not disproven yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 04/07/2016 07:55 pm
Hans just said in presser they are looking to refine their drone ship landing as it is part of their long term plan also next 2-3 flights will go for drone ship landing. He also mentioned it is harder compared to land landings due to movements.

Edit1: Also said a third of future missions could land on land.

Edit2: Hans said operating Drone ship is expensive. Also adds to refurbishment work "Wash off the salt".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gadgetmind on 04/07/2016 08:24 pm
Hmm, "refine", now there's a word. Trying to eliminate those last pesky traces of exploding on impact, falling over and exploding, punching big holes in the deck, and other miscellaneous minor refinements.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/07/2016 09:01 pm
Hmm, "refine", now there's a word. Trying to eliminate those last pesky traces of exploding on impact, falling over and exploding, punching big holes in the deck, and other miscellaneous minor refinements.

With apologies, from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid:

OCISLY: What's the matter with you?!
Falcon 9: I can't swim!
OCISLY: [laughing] Why, you crazy — the fall'll probably kill ya!

But this time I bet they both survive the fall, just like in the movie.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 04/08/2016 01:38 am
Out to sea

https://www.facebook.com/SpaceX/posts/10157299547390131
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 04/08/2016 04:56 am
Such a tiny vessel, such a big ocean!  I'm always amazed that the booster finds it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/08/2016 05:09 am
Out to sea

Looks like a nice day for a landing.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 04/08/2016 09:24 am
Such a tiny vessel, such a big ocean!  I'm always amazed that the booster finds it.

It doesn't. The droneship finds the booster.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 04/08/2016 10:11 am
Such a tiny vessel, such a big ocean!  I'm always amazed that the booster finds it.

It doesn't. The droneship finds the booster.
No, they set a date for a specific time and place, and then both keep it.  In this case, though, you really want the Falcon to "stand up" the date.   ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Mader Levap on 04/08/2016 10:34 am
Such a tiny vessel, such a big ocean!  I'm always amazed that the booster finds it.
It doesn't. The droneship finds the booster.

Er, no. Both of them want to reach certain coordinates very, very much. If both of them are at those coordinates with correct speed and other parameters, it results in stage standing on barge.

They managed to do just exactly that already once. And then leg gave up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jshk8ZVIgdI)...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 04/08/2016 01:00 pm
Er, no.

The booster has a predefined landing point (based mostly on launch mass)*. The barge has to make it to that point. The booster has no option but to hit the predefined landing point. If the barge isn't there, splash. The booster has no option but to hit its predefined landing point (if you want to land correctly). Therefor its the barges responsibility to be at that point.


* this can be varied of course, there is some cross range capability due to grid fins etc. But the point IS predefined.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 04/08/2016 01:14 pm
Can we just skip the inevitable semi-informed bickering about this that will take up three pages, and then peter out or get shut down by a mod?

Oh, wait, this is a discussion thread.  Carry on.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/08/2016 01:21 pm



* this can be varied of course, there is some cross range capability due to grid fins etc. But the point IS predefined.
I trust you understand that your postscript undermines your whole point.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/08/2016 01:52 pm
Ahem. On another subject, GO Searcher is still in port. So it's fairly certain she will not be joining the armada at sea. We think because there's no payload fairing to track/chase on this flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/08/2016 01:57 pm
If Go Searcher had been launched would it have had to find the fleet out at sea or would the fleet find it or would they have met at a designated spot?   ::)


Going crosspostal for a moment, here is a nice summary of the ASDS landing attempts so far:

All of the 4 barge landing attempts would have failed on land, too.

1) Came in hot, no directional control (grid fins ran out of hydraulic fluid)
2) Came in hot, little directional control (sticky engine/TVC valve)
3) Came in perfectly, toppled over (leg didn't latch)
4) Came in incandescent, poked hole in barge (low thrust on one engine)

So, the barge appears to be concentrating on eliminating failure modes.......
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gadgetmind on 04/08/2016 02:27 pm
If Go Searcher had been launched would it have had to find the fleet out at sea or would the fleet find it or would they have met at a designated spot?

A relative of mine was once granted the use of a Royal Navy vessel so he could meet up with a ship from another territory for a "diplomatic handover".

He gave the Captain the agreed coordinates and asked how long the trip would take. On being told "just over seven hours" he did what any Brit would do under the circumstances and went to bed for a nice long sleep.

The next day, he was tucking into breakfast when it struck him that the ship was very quiet and surrounded by nothing but blue sea. He casually asked if there was any sign of the other party and someone speculated with a smirk that it was more than likely that the other party was at the agreed coordinates.

It seems that military types don't like being messed around by government types, and if you tell them to go somewhere, then they'll do exactly that. What they won't do without being asked is to hold station, so they'd been drifting with the wind and waves for an hour or so while said relative was performing his morning ablutions and tucking into his breakfast.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: billh on 04/08/2016 06:15 pm
Out to sea

Looks like a nice day for a landing.  :)
Partly cloudy and a chance of boosters!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 04/08/2016 06:27 pm
Ahem. On another subject, GO Searcher is still in port. So it's fairly certain she will not be joining the armada at sea. We think because there's no payload fairing to track/chase on this flight.

If Go Searcher had been launched would it have had to find the fleet out at sea or would the fleet find it or would they have met at a designated spot?   ::)

Could be SpaceX is wanting to keep Go Searcher hanging back and on alert in case Dragon itself needs recovering, within the 20 mile range approved by FAA for emergency landing with the new parachutes. Easy to see why SpaceX might want to take such a precaution, with CRS-7 probably re-echoing somewhere in their minds about now.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 04/08/2016 07:43 pm
Quoting from the Launch Viewing thread:
Just chatted with Secretary of the Interior Sally Jewel and SpaceX BD Josh Brost about launch costs.

ASDS can tilt up to six degrees and still support a landing. Million pounds of ballast water also means that the rate of change is dwarfed by the speed of the landing.
That gives us a bit more to go by when we're debating how flat and quiescent an ASDS must be for landing.  A bit over a 10% grade is a decent tilt for a football field/pitch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 04/08/2016 08:20 pm
Quote
Screen cap from the stern cam of droneship "Of Course I Still Love You"
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/718532302154833920
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mvpel on 04/08/2016 08:31 pm
Score.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/08/2016 08:53 pm
ASDS OCISLY: Worlds Raddest Barge!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 04/08/2016 08:58 pm
 :-*

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/08/2016 09:01 pm
Great video from the camera drone showing OCISLY wallowing in the waves. Definitely not perfectly stable, but she caught the rocket anyway. Strike!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/08/2016 09:12 pm
What? No kaboom?  :o

A superb landing!!! Way to go OCISLY!

And, to make this post not quite entirely worthless, a note on the sea state; it's very windy out there - those kind of whitcaps only occur when you've got strong surface winds. I'd say right on the edge of gale force.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 04/08/2016 09:26 pm
I'm looping the landing, and it really looks to me as if it bounced/scooted just a bit on landing.  (As in, it looked like the initial landing point was actually closer to the center than the final resting point.)  Obviously, it would've been built for that, and it didn't hurt, but if it did translate just a bit, the targeting may actually be a smidge *better* than the resting stage makes it look.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: longboard1210 on 04/08/2016 09:32 pm
amazing amazing

should we now get the name changed to of course i caught it!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 04/08/2016 09:45 pm
When do you guys estimate it will come back to the port? I need to be at Jetty park for that!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/08/2016 10:13 pm
When do you guys estimate it will come back to the port? I need to be at Jetty park for that!

I figure at a minimum, around 36 hours from now...which is early Sunday morning. But that assumes a fairly quick securing process for the stage. If it takes longer to tie the stage down, maybe later Sunday morning or early afternoon.

Since you are local you can wake up early Sunday morning and check MarineTraffic. They'll show up offshore on AIS at least an hour before reaching port.

Update: Elon confirmed Sunday arrival at press conference.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 04/08/2016 10:20 pm
Looks like the support ships weren't hesitating to get there, unless they anchor that close the whole time anyway. I can see why they would need or want to get there quickly, with surface winds so strong, but assume the remote safing can't be avoided, and would take an hour or two before approach.

:-*

(http://public.cyndyclayton.fastmail.us/ASDS/Gotcha%202016-04-08%20600w.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: longboard1210 on 04/08/2016 10:23 pm
so they are welding her down directly to the deck  elon just confirmed
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 04/08/2016 10:26 pm
When do you guys estimate it will come back to the port? I need to be at Jetty park for that!

I figure at a minimum, around 36 hours from now...which is early Sunday morning. But that assumes a fairly quick securing process for the stage. If it takes longer to tie the stage down, maybe later Sunday morning or early afternoon.

Since you are local you can wake up early Sunday morning and check MarineTraffic. They'll show up offshore on AIS at least an hour before reaching port.

Update: Elon confirmed Sunday arrival at press conference.


Thank you. I guess I will be spending my Sunday at the beach ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/08/2016 10:27 pm
Looks like the support ships weren't hesitating to get there, unless they anchor that close the whole time anyway. I can see why they would need or want to get there quickly, with surface winds so strong, but assume the remote safing can't be avoided, and would take an hour or two before approach?

Hans said some time ago the support ships wait about 10 miles away and it takes them an hour or two to get back on board the barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/08/2016 10:34 pm
Cross-posting from abaddon, quoting Elon at the press conference:

Quote
OCISLY was maintaining within a meter of targeted position today.

One meter position accuracy on the barge...just like we said was possible... ;)

Awesome for those wind and sea conditions. Which means GPS "knowledge" accuracy was probably even better...most error probably from thruster control loop conteracting wind/wave action.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 04/08/2016 11:20 pm
Update: Elon confirmed Sunday arrival at press conference.


Thank you. I guess I will be spending my Sunday at the beach ;)

Wouldn't Fish Lips have a better view, or not? I finished my taxes after working all week on them, so might be a good way to reward myself. It would be about a 2 hr drive from Jacksonville.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Tuts36 on 04/08/2016 11:25 pm
Cross-posting from abaddon, quoting Elon at the press conference:

One meter position accuracy on the barge...just like we said was possible... ;)

Awesome for those wind and sea conditions. Which means GPS "knowledge" accuracy was probably even better...most error probably from thruster control loop conteracting wind/wave action.

He also pointed out in the press conference that, since it has 4 engines & other equipment installed, we really shouldn't be calling it a barge anymore as he now considers it a ship  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 04/08/2016 11:27 pm

ASDS OCISLY: Worlds Raddest Barge!
(Ship!)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 04/08/2016 11:30 pm
Also Elon said ultimately it'll be at Port Canaveral but not sure if it is initial destination.

@17m42s mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNygOavo2mY#t=1062&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/08/2016 11:47 pm
Looks like the support ships weren't hesitating to get there, unless they anchor that close the whole time anyway.
  Huh?  No?  What do you think you are seeing?

Hans said some time ago the support ships wait about 10 miles away and it takes them an hour or two to get back on board the barge.
Yes, I remember that it seems that it was a year back, at the CRS-7 pre-launch conference?  But in the time since (and before) then we've had a tremendous demonstration of the F9's accuracy in smart bomb mode.  I would think they would have relaxed their standoff distance by now.


I suspect that those barge fixer guys are really having a career high feel good moment now, the kind that has them cutting pictures out of newspapers to be preserved.

I think we need to be looking in the next few months for additional Marmac conversions. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Space Opera on 04/08/2016 11:58 pm
Also Elon said ultimately it'll be at Port Canaveral but not sure if it is initial destination.
What could be this initial destination ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 04/09/2016 12:00 am
Also Elon said ultimately it'll be at Port Canaveral but not sure if it is initial destination.
What could be this initial destination ?

bahamas?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/09/2016 12:15 am
Also Elon said ultimately it'll be at Port Canaveral but not sure if it is initial destination.
What could be this initial destination ?

bahamas?

Doubt it, because launch azimuth is much farther north for ISS than it was for SES-9 when they did support ship runs into Bahamas. This time I think Bahamas is farther than the Cape from the LZ. My guess would be Jacksonville as the shortest run to the coast for a temporary layover.

But then they would have to go back out for a run down the coast to the Cape, and that's more exposure at sea... Hoping they opt for a straight shot into Canaveral.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mlow on 04/09/2016 12:28 am
Yeah I'm a bit confused as to the reasoning of taking a pit-stop somewhere. Perhaps something to do with the winds Elon mentioned in the post-launch conference. Maybe they want to weld shoes and get to a port and dock ASAP, idk. The winds cant be that bad close to shore as they are out there.(he mentioned 50mph winds)

I would think the safest thing would be to weld shoes and get back to the dock where they have the equipment to remove the stage from the barge. Less time in salt spray, less time bobbing around with the shoes/legs taking extra stress. That is unless they use jacks to take some strain off. But alas Elon did not make mention of jacks, only shoes. That doesn't remove them from the equation but seems like he would have made mention of them at the same time wrt the question from a reporter of the exact process the stage has ahead.

At any rate, we will know come Sunday I suppose. I'm sure more than a few people will be on-site to report and take pics/video. I look forward to that. I am also a member of the club that wishes to see Elon standing proud on the bow as it comes into port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 04/09/2016 12:34 am
Also Elon said ultimately it'll be at Port Canaveral but not sure if it is initial destination.

@17m42s mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNygOavo2mY#t=1062&feature=youtu.be)


I was puzzled by that -- unless it's taking a victory lap up and down the coast I can't imagine where else it would be more likely to go.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/09/2016 12:52 am
For reference, here is repost of map by OxCartMark. Jacksonville is almost due west of LZ, but it looks only marginally nearer to the LZ than the Cape, so it hardly seems worth a detour.

(http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39766.0;attach=1106693)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/09/2016 01:02 am
Yeah I'm a bit confused as to the reasoning of taking a pit-stop somewhere

Perhaps Amazon has a large facility near the ocean that they want to float it past?


edit: Elon's words on the subject:
"Actually I'm not certain about that I think certainly is where it will ultimately be.  I'm not sure that is the original destination"
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 04/09/2016 01:18 am
I'm looping the landing, and it really looks to me as if it bounced/scooted just a bit on landing.  (As in, it looked like the initial landing point was actually closer to the center than the final resting point.)  Obviously, it would've been built for that, and it didn't hurt, but if it did translate just a bit, the targeting may actually be a smidge *better* than the resting stage makes it look.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/718605741288894464

Ooh they were right on the 'X' at beginning and then as you said moved away slightly.

Edit: I still think shoes and jacks are same thing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ericspittle on 04/09/2016 01:38 am
Edit: I still think shoes and jacks are same thing.
Why would one weld a jack over the landling legs though? I suspect they'll do both, weld shoes over the feet of the legs so it can't move, and then put jacks under it (using the same aircraft style jacks they used for the RTLS in December) to take the stress off the legs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 04/09/2016 01:53 am
Um, it's my supposition that they'd head in to nearest port that can handle the barge (strike that, ship) - I.E., Jax, and offload their precious cargo. I suspect that when OCISLY returns to Port Canaveral it'll be sans cargo...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/09/2016 02:06 am
Um, it's my supposition that they'd head in to nearest port that can handle the barge (strike that, ship) - I.E., Jax, and offload their precious cargo. I suspect that when OCISLY returns to Port Canaveral it'll be sans cargo...
Um, no Falcon perch in Jacksonville.  Falcon perch and yellow crane are at Port Canaveral.

Theory (if you are not already bought into my Amazon theory above): Stop at VAB pond or elsewhere for employee celebration on ASDS and some folks remain onboard for triumphant public return to Port Canaveral.  Hmm, after looking at maps that seems vastly impractical and it almost certainly isn't certified for passengers.

Is this event historic enough that they should eventually hang ASDS OCISLY from the ceiling of the Smithsonian A&S museum?    ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 04/09/2016 02:10 am
Jacks have been spotted so many times but never mentioned 'shoes' have been mentioned by Elon himself but never seen. Jack adapter goes over and secures the hold down lug and jacks could be welded to the deck. Where are these 'shoes' on deck ? Can't be in containers in my opinion very less space around them. Jacks are simply rolled out on their wheels, put under and then firmly placed. Apart from jacks so far the only leg related thing we have seen are these.

(http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36326.0;attach=631534;image)

Shoes IF they go over leg tips need to be something more rigid and possibly attach.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/09/2016 02:16 am
Quote
Where are these 'shoes' on deck ? Can't be in containers in my opinion very less space around them.

Shoes need only be maybe 2 feet square, smaller than the size of the welder. Should be enough storage space  for them in the containers, no? Or on GO Quest.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/09/2016 02:18 am
We've never seen shoes because they are small, only need to go over feet.  Probably stored in containers.
We've never seen shoes because shoes need to be welded to a steel deck and there has never been a F9 standing on a steel deck before.
We've never seen shoes because we've never been in a situation where the F9 landed at sea and needed to be secured very quickly and easily and it was acceptable to cause more work on the receiving end (see also short list of recovered F9s)

Jacks are big because they need to reach up quite a ways to the hold down clamp attach points. 

edit:
Elon's comment from the reddit AMA 1/2015: "Mostly gravity. The center of gravity is pretty low for the booster, as all the engines and residual propellant is at the bottom.
We are going to weld steel shoes over the landing feet as a precautionary measure."

edit2:
Elon's comment on shoes today: (about 20% into the video, not possible for me to get a time)
"That's what's happening, we're welding it down.  Yea.  Make sure it doesn't tip over.  There's potentially some heavy winds coming.  We've got these steel shoes that we put over the landing feet and weld it to the deck"
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 04/09/2016 02:30 am
...
Is this event historic enough that they should eventually hang ASDS OCISLY from the ceiling of the Smithsonian A&S museum?    ::)

The OCISLY will make a great lawn monument at the A&S museum, especially with a flown Falcon 9 as the centerpiece on it. :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 04/09/2016 02:35 am
Is this event historic enough that they should eventually hang ASDS OCISLY from the ceiling of the Smithsonian A&S museum?    ::)

Not anymore than Sea Launch Odyssey.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/09/2016 02:46 am
Is this event historic enough that they should eventually hang ASDS OCISLY from the ceiling of the Smithsonian A&S museum?    ::)

Not anymore than Sea Launch Odyssey.
I doubt that ranks anywhere near what happened today.  All Sea Launch Odyssey did is launch rockets.  People have been launching rockets for longer than most of us here have been alive.  And if you classify launching rockets from water as the qualifying category there'd be a large number of submarines in line in front of it.

edit: And... Sea Launch Odyssey is too tall to fit into the room.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/09/2016 02:59 am
For those of you that have been snooping ocean landing platforms for as long as some of us have recall that there were endless pages of discussion about the steel deck being unable to handle the rocket exhaust, warping, etc.  Well today we have a solid answer to that and I note after watching the video a few more times that they don't even seem to be running the red spray nozzle to wet the deck on this landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 04/09/2016 03:04 am
Aware of all those Mark. Again looking at tips (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33788.msg1147688#msg1147688) and not seeing anything to hook up to. Also why would they need tie downs back then when shoes were there? About the space problem I imagine something that is stored partly disassembled beam frame like thing that attaches to cylinders...but then again I think jacks are enough. :-X

Edit: Replying to shoe thingy not above.

Also on Jason-3 attempt they were spraying away from deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/09/2016 03:07 am
Aware of all those Mark. Again looking at tips (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33788.msg1147688#msg1147688) and not seeing anything to hook up to. Also why would they need tie downs back then when shoes were there? About the space problem I imagine something that is stored partly disassembled beam frame like thing that attaches to cylinders...but then again I think jacks are enough. :-X

Edit: Replying to shoe thingy not above.

Shoes don't need to hook to anything. They can go over the leg tips, preventing side-slipping and overturning. Just make them long enough so they cover a foot or two of leg tip.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 04/09/2016 03:12 am
Aware of all those Mark. Again looking at tips (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33788.msg1147688#msg1147688) and not seeing anything to hook up to. Also why would they need tie downs back then when shoes were there? About the space problem I imagine something that is stored partly disassembled beam frame like thing that attaches to cylinders...but then again I think jacks are enough. :-X

Edit: Replying to shoe thingy not above.

Shoes don't hook to anything. They go over the leg tips, preventing side-slipping and overturning.

Yes I understand that assumption I don't know how to say but doesn't sit well with me. Such shoes just appear unnecessary. Jacks are like those hold downs but movable.

Edit: Adding what little attachables (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33788.msg1147660#msg1147660) leg tips have
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: NovaSilisko on 04/09/2016 03:26 am
So we're back to the good old pasttime of arguing about all the minutia SpaceX is doing wrong, eh?

Welding is cheap and quick. Just a loop of metal that sits over the very end of the leg and stops it from skidding or lifting up. I'm more worried about skidding than tipping. If it's tilting to the point that it actuall falls over, we're talking Poseidon Adventure level wave action, and you've probably got bigger issues (like the entire thing sinking)

Also, I'm pretty sure we saw the shoes before, somewhere. Buried in one of the old ASDS threads, no doubt.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 04/09/2016 04:25 am
Quote
Also, I'm pretty sure we saw the shoes before, somewhere. Buried in one of the old ASDS threads, no doubt.

No we would know that. Also the idea of shoes going over tips and being welded isn't lost on me in fact it is intuitive just like for everyone else after listening and reading to Elon ... 'Steel' 'Over legs' 'Welded to deck' yep even more obvious I just find it odd that rocket sitting on jacks isn't worth mentioning..It is not something obvious and they visibly put work into it and stuck with them for many attempts. Mind it only one person here predicted them before they were seen on DSCVR attempt. So just trying to pick holes in the 'obvious' anyways..

To divert subject Mark mentioned in discussion thread that first stage maintains its roll such that the sides of square formed by joining leg tips are parallel to sides of deck. On Jason3 attempt this was true as well. So stage is simply adjusting its roll to reduce chances of one leg going overboard? If yes how does it determine orientation of ASDS?

Or ASDS is maintaining predetermined position as well as orientation? What factor decides what orientation ASDS should maintain? Is it something related to waves like aligning to have them along length than width.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 04/09/2016 04:46 am
Quote
Also, I'm pretty sure we saw the shoes before, somewhere. Buried in one of the old ASDS threads, no doubt.


Or ASDS is maintaining predetermined position as well as orientation? What factor decides what orientation ASDS should maintain? Is it something related to waves like aligning to have them along length than width.
That's a good question. And a complicated one. Boats sitting still act nothing like boats moving. Bow into the waves on a still barge could make the thing pitch more than side to the waves. And, do they worry more about pitching and rolling or sliding sideways? Those Thrustmasters aren't instantaneous.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/09/2016 04:56 am
My guesses on how shoes would look;
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 04/09/2016 05:10 am
Or ASDS is maintaining predetermined position as well as orientation? What factor decides what orientation ASDS should maintain? Is it something related to waves like aligning to have them along length than width.
That's a good question. And a complicated one. Boats sitting still act nothing like boats moving. Bow into the waves on a still barge could make the thing pitch more than side to the waves. And, do they worry more about pitching and rolling or sliding sideways? Those Thrustmasters aren't instantaneous.

Maintaining position would be priority and they have less error margin along width.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/09/2016 09:30 am
Quote
I just find it odd that rocket sitting on jacks isn't worth mentioning..It is not something obvious and they visibly put work into it and stuck with them for many attempts.

Maybe leg piston locks have been beefed up to the point they think legs alone can support the stage safely during transit with no need for jacks now.

Or maybe Elon just didn't bother to mention because in this case jacks won't be weighted down and thus are not really contributing to stability, just protecting against leg collapse.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 04/09/2016 10:34 am
Update: Elon confirmed Sunday arrival at press conference.


Thank you. I guess I will be spending my Sunday at the beach ;)

Wouldn't Fish Lips have a better view, or not? I finished my taxes after working all week on them, so might be a good way to reward myself. It would be about a 2 hr drive from Jacksonville.


Any place in the port will be good.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 04/09/2016 10:39 am
Also Elon said ultimately it'll be at Port Canaveral but not sure if it is initial destination.


SpaceX installed special "rocket mount" in Port Canaveral. I suspect this mount may be required to unload the rocket. So I doubt SpaceX would divert to any other port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cambrianera on 04/09/2016 11:07 am
Also Elon said ultimately it'll be at Port Canaveral but not sure if it is initial destination.


SpaceX installed special "rocket mount" in Port Canaveral. I suspect this mount may be required to unload the rocket. So I doubt SpaceX would divert to any other port.

IMHO needed to remove the legs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gadgetmind on 04/09/2016 11:07 am
Hmm, "refine", now there's a word. Trying to eliminate those last pesky traces of exploding on impact, falling over and exploding, punching big holes in the deck, and other miscellaneous minor refinements.

OK, now they can refine their landings!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 04/09/2016 12:37 pm
Set up a specific thread for the return to port tomorrow:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40002.0
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cambrianera on 04/09/2016 12:41 pm
Word is it may come back to JAX, not to the cape

I can see they might have wanted to get close to shore for overnight and/or ASAP, to get out of the higher winds offshore, and JAXPORT would have been closest to their position at the landing site, but why go to the trouble of offloading and trucking the stage from there when it's already loaded for transport on the drone ship. I think when when the stage comes in close to it's final resting place, it will be on the drone ship, not a truck.

They have experience of trucking the stage for thousand of km, they never experienced vertical barge transport.
That said, I don't put a dime on a JAX stop.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: litton4 on 04/09/2016 01:45 pm
I'm looping the landing, and it really looks to me as if it bounced/scooted just a bit on landing.  (As in, it looked like the initial landing point was actually closer to the center than the final resting point.)  Obviously, it would've been built for that, and it didn't hurt, but if it did translate just a bit, the targeting may actually be a smidge *better* than the resting stage makes it look.

I noticed this, too - very apparent in the 4K version. Wind taking it a metre or 3 to the left. Scary stuff.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/09/2016 01:58 pm
Regarding that bounce - If we knew the coefficient of friction between the deck and the foot pads we could use that to determine what that slide demonstrated in terms of tip over angle (assuming that there wasn't still any significant thrust at that time).  It wouldn't tell us the maximum angle that the stage could be at without tipping over but it would set a lower bound that we know we can survive, at least statically.  But seat of the pants, I think it demonstrates what they've been telling us all along, that the CG is way down low and we shouldn't worry about it.  Elon in the press conference said 6-8 degrees is OK and 8-9 was maybe possible.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 04/09/2016 02:03 pm
Regarding that bounce - If we knew the coefficient of friction between the deck and the foot pads we could use that to determine what that slide demonstrated in terms of tip over angle (assuming that there wasn't still any significant thrust at that time).  It wouldn't tell us the maximum angle that the stage could be at without tipping over but it would set a lower bound that we know we can survive, at least statically.  But seat of the pants, I think it demonstrates what they've been telling us all along, that the CG is way down low and we shouldn't worry about it.  Elon in the press conference said 6-8 degrees is OK and 8-9 was maybe possible.

I wonder how much of the "skid" on touchdown was due to wind on the settling stage, and how much due to motion of the barge from the sea state? At first blush it looks to me more that the deck of the barge moves under the stage (pitch and roll) as much as the stage moves while it settles.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gongora on 04/09/2016 02:13 pm
Do we know if a stand for the rocket is still in place at JAX?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/09/2016 02:18 pm
Do we know if a stand for the rocket is still in place at JAX?

Last we saw, stands had been moved to Port Canaveral. But here they are, as originally installed in JAX.

(http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36326.0;attach=629332)

Photo below taken by MarekCyzio at Port Canaveral. You can see they are the same stands, by the "ears" projecting from the top corners of the 2 stands on the left.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: hans_ober on 04/09/2016 02:45 pm
Regarding that bounce - If we knew the coefficient of friction between the deck and the foot pads we could use that to determine what that slide demonstrated in terms of tip over angle (assuming that there wasn't still any significant thrust at that time).  It wouldn't tell us the maximum angle that the stage could be at without tipping over but it would set a lower bound that we know we can survive, at least statically.  But seat of the pants, I think it demonstrates what they've been telling us all along, that the CG is way down low and we shouldn't worry about it.  Elon in the press conference said 6-8 degrees is OK and 8-9 was maybe possible.

Check out the barge around 30 seconds into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYmQQn_ZSys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYmQQn_ZSys).
(After the stage has landed).

The barge sways A LOT, definitely more than 10 degrees, but the stage seems pretty stable, no signs of movement, which is impressive. Looked close to 20 degrees.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gongora on 04/09/2016 03:03 pm
Do we know if a stand for the rocket is still in place at JAX?

Last we saw, stands had been moved to Port Canaveral. But here they are, as originally installed in JAX. Second photo shows them in Port Canaveral.

Finally found picture from JAX where they had removed stands (only 227 pages into the previous thread).  Was wondering if they had just left stands in both places, if you already have to build 4 stands then building a 5th doesn't seem like a big deal.
Quote
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #5656 on: 12/19/2015 04:24 PM »
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/09/2016 03:12 pm
The barge sways A LOT, definitely more than 10 degrees, but the stage seems pretty stable, no signs of movement, which is impressive. Looked close to 20 degrees.
  No.  Elon addresses this in the press conference.  He said they were seeing 2-3 degrees.

The pictures are very definitive as to the history of the crane and Falcon Perch.  Both were at Jacksonville.  Both were gone from Jax on the next Carnival Fascination images we had after the ASDS departed.  Both have been seen in Port Canaveral since at least the beginning of March and in all probability back into February though I've not traced them back that far.  There isn't much wiggle room for other versions of reality on this.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 04/09/2016 04:04 pm
Quote
Also, I'm pretty sure we saw the shoes before, somewhere. Buried in one of the old ASDS threads, no doubt.


Or ASDS is maintaining predetermined position as well as orientation? What factor decides what orientation ASDS should maintain? Is it something related to waves like aligning to have them along length than width.
That's a good question. And a complicated one. Boats sitting still act nothing like boats moving. Bow into the waves on a still barge could make the thing pitch more than side to the waves. And, do they worry more about pitching and rolling or sliding sideways? Those Thrustmasters aren't instantaneous.
How would a boat know if it is "standing still", GPS wise...

I think the difference is between "free drifting boats" and "thrusting boats" (whether stationary or not", and also "moored boats".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 04/09/2016 04:06 pm
Word is it may come back to JAX, not to the cape

I can see they might have wanted to get close to shore for overnight and/or ASAP, to get out of the higher winds offshore, and JAXPORT would have been closest to their position at the landing site, but why go to the trouble of offloading and trucking the stage from there when it's already loaded for transport on the drone ship. I think when when the stage comes in close to it's final resting place, it will be on the drone ship, not a truck.

They have experience of trucking the stage for thousand of km, they never experienced vertical barge transport.
That said, I don't put a dime on a JAX stop.
Deleted...   New "triumphant barge return" thread!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 04/09/2016 04:07 pm
Word is it may come back to JAX, not to the cape

I can see they might have wanted to get close to shore for overnight and/or ASAP, to get out of the higher winds offshore, and JAXPORT would have been closest to their position at the landing site, but why go to the trouble of offloading and trucking the stage from there when it's already loaded for transport on the drone ship. I think when when the stage comes in close to it's final resting place, it will be on the drone ship, not a truck.

They have experience of trucking the stage for thousand of km, they never experienced vertical barge transport.
That said, I don't put a dime on a JAX stop.
They have to go to JaX first.  There is an outstanding $20 bet between Elon and someone about whether the stage will fit under that bridge.
You've got to be kidding...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: apirie98 on 04/09/2016 04:23 pm
The barge sways A LOT, definitely more than 10 degrees, but the stage seems pretty stable, no signs of movement, which is impressive. Looked close to 20 degrees.

I noticed that the RCS thrusters are still firing after the stage is landed. I'm wondering if that is actually helping to keep the stage upright, or if it's not doing anything much to help but it's just the control system firing as the stage tilts, because that's what the control system does.

If it were keeping the stage upright and stable, how long would the RCS system be able to sustain this (i.e. in strong winds/waves)?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gospacex on 04/09/2016 04:42 pm
A non-trivially off-center landing. I think we will see somewhat bigger barges in the future.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/09/2016 04:44 pm
I noticed that the RCS thrusters are still firing after the stage is landed
They are firing N2 in all four directions simultaneously with a net thrust of zero just to get rid of the potential energy in the pressure vessels as part of safing the stage.  This happened on their momentarily successful previous landing as well.  The time that they landed with way too much sideways motion it was different, there was just one thruster at the top fighting to keep it upright.

If it were keeping the stage upright and stable, how long would the RCS system be able to sustain this (i.e. in strong winds/waves)?
The thrust isn't that significant.  You'd be better off having a pelican land on one of the legs.  The duration would be 4x the duration you see in this video.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cambrianera on 04/09/2016 05:12 pm
A non-trivially off-center landing. I think we will see somewhat bigger barges in the future.
Disagree...
I think we will see bullseye landing in the future!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 04/09/2016 05:14 pm
Latest Terraserver update of Port Canaveral Shows "Of Course I still Love you" in port:

http://bit.ly/1N1dzeb
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: 411rocket on 04/09/2016 05:22 pm
Latest Terraserver update of Port Canaveral Shows "Of Course I still Love you" in port:

http://bit.ly/1N1dzeb

It also looks like, there is a hole in the deck too. We know that hole, has since been repaired.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: georgegassaway on 04/09/2016 05:32 pm
FWIW, here is an image I modified to show an estimated CG location of the F9 core after landing. I’m not claiming this is the real CG, it may well be lower than this, just that from old discussions on the forum that it would be pretty low down with nearly all of the fuel gone (And thruster gases vented shortly after landing).  So, it is easier to visualize how hard it would be for it to fall over, once you see how low the CG is relative to the legspan.

(http://i.imgur.com/Q9xXS8Z.jpg)

The off’center landing, I do not think is random, I think it is directly related to the high wind and the fact that it had to stop tilting to fight the wind to be level at touchdown, so it drifted off-center in that brief time.  Here is an edited version of a post I made elsewhere:

The tilt seen early as it was coming down, I thought at first it had been off course horizontally and was trying to maneuver a bit laterally during the descent to make up for an error. So I was relieved (and super excited) to see it landed safely.

Turned out that it was coming down pretty much vertically.... but it was VERY windy. Musk said 50 mph, not sure of that though SpaceX had said it could land in winds as high as 50 mph. Anyway, the tilt was needed to fly it "into the wind", so the net descent path seemed pretty vertical (If the wind was say 40 mph, then it would need to tilt to fly laterally 40 mph into the wind so as not to drift downwind).

But for landing it needs to be level, the legs are not designed for one to land first and for one leg to support the landing loads of the whole booster (never mind rocking moments that would be generated as a result of that).

So, it had to straighten up at the last moment to land level. And in that time, the wind started to move it downwind. The off-center location seems to be pretty much aligned with the wind direction, so it may have bene dead center until it leveled off for touchdown. Also, the video shows how, as it is landing, the steam (water sprayed on deck) from the exhaust moves quickly from right to left, showing how fast the wind was and the direction that matches the tilt direction the core was doing to fight that wind during descent.

IIRC, the Orbcomm-2 landing in December (RTLS back to the Cape) also was "downwind" of the center of the circle. Was not as windy, was not off by much, but notably the location was downwind (Later there was a great fixed near-pad camera that showed the landing closeup, where it was visibly obvious it was descending vertically, then as it straightened up 2-3 seconds before touchdown it drifted horizontally a bit).

Maybe sometime they will tweak the landing software to "lead" the targeted landing spot to be a few feet upwind of center, so the descent will be "over" that upwind spot and try to land a few feet upwind, but when it levels out to point vertically, the wind will push it closer to the center. Of course if it really was 50 mph wind.... then it works without the need for doing that. But inevitably there'd be some day with even higher wind, where such a landing software tweak might allow it to land safely without drifting too far and put a leg over the side, leading to it falling overboard.

An update I’ll add to the last paragraph, is that on rematching a HD view of the landing, it looks like the core might have been a little bit upwind of center as it came down. So possibly the landing software DID “lead” some of the landing to be somewhat upwind of center. Of course with winds that high, there would likely be gusts, including gusts at different altitudes.  As well, the issue of vertical Wind Gradient, wind velocity is lower closer to the surface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_gradient

- George Gassaway
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: alang on 04/09/2016 05:42 pm
Could a mechanical engineer here say if that skid might be a good thing, to reduce the bending stress on the stage?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/09/2016 05:54 pm
...

Yes!  Exactly as you said from beginning to end.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cambrianera on 04/09/2016 05:59 pm
That CG is too low.
Right position is about 12-13 m high.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: StuffOfInterest on 04/09/2016 06:01 pm
Maybe sometime they will tweak the landing software to "lead" the targeted landing spot to be a few feet upwind of center, so the descent will be "over" that upwind spot and try to land a few feet upwind, but when it levels out to point vertically, the wind will push it closer to the center. Of course if it really was 50 mph wind.... then it works without the need for doing that. But inevitably there'd be some day with even higher wind, where such a landing software tweak might allow it to land safely without drifting too far and put a leg over the side, leading to it falling overboard.

Something I put in the mission discussion thread, rather than changing the rocket landing target why not just shift the barge a couple meters downwind a few minutes before landing?   The rocket isn't going to change in real time but the barge can do a readjustment and the wind measurement tools are right there.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 04/09/2016 06:02 pm
A non-trivially off-center landing. I think we will see somewhat bigger barges in the future.
Maybe they will make bigger barges, but I don't think that is the "next step."

It touched down pretty darn close to center in a stiff wind with 50 mph gusts (it looks like a couple of meters off to me, max).  Then it "bounces" a couple times and scoots downwind. There may be ways to mitigate the "bounce."  There are definitely ways for the rocket to programmatically adjust it's target point to adjust for "fighting" the wind.  It can estimate how far it will drift in the last moments when it has to "get vertical" for the landing.

I'm not saying it "easy", but refining landing software and dampening the bounce is where to start, IMO.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 04/09/2016 06:17 pm
Maybe sometime they will tweak the landing software to "lead" the targeted landing spot to be a few feet upwind of center, so the descent will be "over" that upwind spot and try to land a few feet upwind, but when it levels out to point vertically, the wind will push it closer to the center. Of course if it really was 50 mph wind.... then it works without the need for doing that. But inevitably there'd be some day with even higher wind, where such a landing software tweak might allow it to land safely without drifting too far and put a leg over the side, leading to it falling overboard.

Something I put in the mission discussion thread, rather than changing the rocket landing target why not just shift the barge a couple meters downwind a few minutes before landing?   The rocket isn't going to change in real time but the barge can do a readjustment and the wind measurement tools are right there.
My only concern is that the amount of drift for the touch down point is related to when the rocket "goes vertical" for the landing.  So changes to the flight software/timing would require changes to the barge offset calculation.  Possible, but my gut is to let the rocket figure out how to hit the target.  It doesn't know the airspeed directly, but it has a good idea what the wind speed is based on how much it has to gimbal and "lean in" to the wind.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/10/2016 04:41 am
From the Return of OCISLY thread;

We saw the support ship approaching the ASDS soon after the landing.
You are the second person that I've heard say that.  Perhaps I need to consider that its true.  What did you see to suggest that (what did I miss?)?

I know saw a smudge/water drop on the on-board view that I briefly thought looked like a ship. Can someone provide a picture of anything more definitive?

Do you mean this shot?

It started with a photo Ohsin attached at 4:58pm yesterday and then I embedded it, again below. There's a hazy outline or two and a light in the background to the right, but clearer in this shot than in Bargemanos'.

(http://public.cyndyclayton.fastmail.us/ASDS/Gotcha%202016-04-08%20600w.jpg)

Cindy, I have utterly no clue what that light is (though if anyone has any ideas, please enlighten) but those things on what looks like the horizon that look like ships, aren.t. IMHO, the forward blast wall top is in line with the horizon, so in that area you're looking over the top of the blast wall, and the things we see there are IMHO parts of OCISLY; the generator exhaust stacks, and, I think, the satcom dome.



Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 04/10/2016 04:53 am
We saw the support ship approaching the ASDS soon after the landing.
Cindy, I have utterly no clue what that light is (though if anyone has any ideas, please enlighten) but those things on what looks like the horizon that look like ships, aren.t. IMHO, the forward blast wall top is in line with the horizon, so in that area you're looking over the top of the blast wall, and the things we see there are IMHO parts of OCISLY; the generator exhaust stacks, and, I think, the satcom dome.

Gosh I'm sorry.  CJ is obviously correct.  My statement was wrong.
But it was a minor point.  The ship is somewhere maybe an hour or two away. 
The basic conclusion remains.  The first stage was probably secured within hours of landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/10/2016 05:32 am

Cindy, I have utterly no clue what that light is (though if anyone has any ideas, please enlighten) but those things on what looks like the horizon that look like ships, aren.t. IMHO, the forward blast wall top is in line with the horizon, so in that area you're looking over the top of the blast wall, and the things we see there are IMHO parts of OCISLY; the generator exhaust stacks, and, I think, the satcom dome.

Gosh I'm sorry.  CJ is obviously correct.  My statement was wrong.
But it was a minor point.  The ship is somewhere maybe an hour or two away. 
The basic conclusion remains.  The first stage was probably secured within hours of landing.

IMHO, you are quite correct that the ships are somewhere fairly close (an hour or less IMHO). Five miles (about half an hour at ten knots) should be enough - it's enough for RTLS (It's about 6 miles from LC-13 to the restaurants and cruise terminals at Port Canaveral).

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/10/2016 07:49 am
A non-trivially off-center landing. I think we will see somewhat bigger barges in the future.
I think the barge will stay the same size and the landings will improve.

Also: some of the bounce might be velocity overshoot---getting to positive a few fractions of a meter per second up, instead of precisely to zero.  Engine shutdown transient might do that, it's notoriously difficult to predict the amount of thrust from the shutdown transient.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/10/2016 10:02 pm
Over in the CRS-8 discussion thread, there's quite a bit of concern regarding the off-center location where the stage ended up after some downwind sideways motion on landing.

My suggestion in that thread was that if SpaceX is concerned about this, they might address it by, for future windy landings, positioning the ASDS so it's centered a yard or two upwind of the coordinates for touchdown.

So my question here is, is there anything known about the ASDS control system that would preclude making such a simple adjustment in case of need? My guess as to how they could do it is simply change the ASDS's target coordinates by a yard ot two in the appropriate direction.

Doing the above just seems, to me, vastly simpler and cheaper than some of the proposed (in that thread and others) changes to the ASDS and the F9, to fix a problem that we don't, yet, know is actually a problem or not.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Mongo62 on 04/10/2016 10:54 pm
My suggestion in that thread was that if SpaceX is concerned about this, they might address it by, for future windy landings, positioning the ASDS so it's centered a yard or two upwind of the coordinates for touchdown.

I assume you mean downwind? Being upwind of the GPS location would make the stage's final stopping point even further from the center of the deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/10/2016 11:17 pm
My suggestion in that thread was that if SpaceX is concerned about this, they might address it by, for future windy landings, positioning the ASDS so it's centered a yard or two upwind of the coordinates for touchdown.

I assume you mean downwind? Being upwind of the GPS location would make the stage's final stopping point even further from the center of the deck.

And this is why SpaceX would never be crazy enough to hire me; a goof like I made there would turn a successful landing into a kaboom.

Thanks for the correction.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/10/2016 11:55 pm
Over in the CRS-8 discussion thread, there's quite a bit of concern regarding the off-center location where the stage ended up after some downwind sideways motion on landing.

My suggestion in that thread was that if SpaceX is concerned about this, they might address it by, for future windy landings, positioning the ASDS so it's centered a yard or two updownwind of the coordinates for touchdown.

So my question here is, is there anything known about the ASDS control system that would preclude making such a simple adjustment in case of need? My guess as to how they could do it is simply change the ASDS's target coordinates by a yard ot two in the appropriate direction.

Doing the above just seems, to me, vastly simpler and cheaper than some of the proposed (in that thread and others) changes to the ASDS and the F9, to fix a problem that we don't, yet, know is actually a problem or not.

It would be really very easy to tweak the location reference in the Thustmaster's position system to do this, but I, for one, don't think they would do it for the following reasons:
1. A barge moving in any direction has significant momentum - it can't stop instantly - and presumably they want it stationary at the moment of impact (jumping onto a moving platform is more hazardous than jumping onto a stationary one - try it at home!).
2. If something went screwy with the comms link at the last second, the barge could start driving off underneath the landing stage, which would be a bad day all around.
3. The landing deck is big enough - it's simply not worth the risk.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/11/2016 12:02 am
Also: some of the bounce might be velocity overshoot---getting to positive a few fractions of a meter per second up, instead of precisely to zero.  Engine shutdown transient might do that, it's notoriously difficult to predict the amount of thrust from the shutdown transient.

I can't see them eliminating the bounce entirely in anything other than calm seas - because it's impossible for anyone to predict the exact vertical position of the barge deck at the exact moment of touchdown whenever you have waves striking the hull.  It's a far easier engineering ask to put design constraints on the amount of bounce..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sewebster on 04/11/2016 12:49 am
To me, it seems like if this "skidding off the deck" thing were a real problem, then it would be easiest to get a bigger boat. Unless they are currently at some particular width limit etc...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/11/2016 01:15 am
To me, it seems like if this "skidding off the deck" thing were a real problem, then it would be easiest to get a bigger boat. Unless they are currently at some particular width limit etc...

Bigger deck cargo barges do exist (Marmac 400, for example) but 300' is the largest most folks need for the sort of transportation tasks these barges are used for and increasing size does increase handling and berthing costs.  This means there aren't so many to choose from, berthing options become limited and costs increase... so it's not an option they'll want to entertain unless they have to.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: robertross on 04/11/2016 01:49 am
Also: some of the bounce might be velocity overshoot---getting to positive a few fractions of a meter per second up, instead of precisely to zero.  Engine shutdown transient might do that, it's notoriously difficult to predict the amount of thrust from the shutdown transient.

I can't see them eliminating the bounce entirely in anything other than calm seas - because it's impossible for anyone to predict the exact vertical position of the barge deck at the exact moment of touchdown whenever you have waves striking the hull.  It's a far easier engineering ask to put design constraints on the amount of bounce..

Maybe they can build and float a moving wall around the barge. It would be buoyant on the trip out, filled with water to partially submerge it, and that would become a circular wall around the barge to reduce wave impact during landings.

(They could also erect it on station & then fill it to submerge it, taking it off the barge via the support ship). There are a few ways to do this.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/11/2016 01:50 am
Over in the CRS-8 discussion thread, there's quite a bit of concern regarding the off-center location where the stage ended up after some downwind sideways motion on landing.

My suggestion in that thread was that if SpaceX is concerned about this, they might address it by, for future windy landings, positioning the ASDS so it's centered a yard or two updownwind of the coordinates for touchdown.

So my question here is, is there anything known about the ASDS control system that would preclude making such a simple adjustment in case of need? My guess as to how they could do it is simply change the ASDS's target coordinates by a yard ot two in the appropriate direction.

Doing the above just seems, to me, vastly simpler and cheaper than some of the proposed (in that thread and others) changes to the ASDS and the F9, to fix a problem that we don't, yet, know is actually a problem or not.

It would be really very easy to tweak the location reference in the Thustmaster's position system to do this, but I, for one, don't think they would do it for the following reasons:
1. A barge moving in any direction has significant momentum - it can't stop instantly - and presumably they want it stationary at the moment of impact (jumping onto a moving platform is more hazardous than jumping onto a stationary one - try it at home!).
2. If something went screwy with the comms link at the last second, the barge could start driving off underneath the landing stage, which would be a bad day all around.
3. The landing deck is big enough - it's simply not worth the risk.

Regarding point #1, I didn't mean to imply any momentum. I was thinking something like this; ten minutes or so before launch, check wind speed an direction (I'm assuming the ASDS has an anemometer). If needed, command the ASDS to move a yard or two downwind. That (a movement of 6 feet or less) wouldn't take long, and it should be at a relative standstill again by launch.

As for trying it at home; I steadfastly refuse to try jumping on a moving ASDS at home - I live 7000 feet up a mountain, so getting an ASDS here would be a tad problematic.  :)

Points 2 and 3 are very valid IMHO. Of course, the only reason to try something like this is if there's a problem that needs fixing. My guess is that for the conditions we saw, there isn't one, but stronger winds might change the equation on that and thus might make trying something along these lines worthwhile. At least, that's my guess as to what they might have in their high winds contingency folder.   

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/11/2016 02:00 am
Over in the CRS-8 discussion thread, there's quite a bit of concern regarding the off-center location where the stage ended up after some downwind sideways motion on landing.

My suggestion in that thread was that if SpaceX is concerned about this, they might address it by, for future windy landings, positioning the ASDS so it's centered a yard or two updownwind of the coordinates for touchdown.

So my question here is, is there anything known about the ASDS control system that would preclude making such a simple adjustment in case of need? My guess as to how they could do it is simply change the ASDS's target coordinates by a yard ot two in the appropriate direction.

Doing the above just seems, to me, vastly simpler and cheaper than some of the proposed (in that thread and others) changes to the ASDS and the F9, to fix a problem that we don't, yet, know is actually a problem or not.

It would be really very easy to tweak the location reference in the Thustmaster's position system to do this, but I, for one, don't think they would do it for the following reasons:
1. A barge moving in any direction has significant momentum - it can't stop instantly - and presumably they want it stationary at the moment of impact (jumping onto a moving platform is more hazardous than jumping onto a stationary one - try it at home!).
2. If something went screwy with the comms link at the last second, the barge could start driving off underneath the landing stage, which would be a bad day all around.
3. The landing deck is big enough - it's simply not worth the risk.

Regarding point #1, I didn't mean to imply any momentum. I was thinking something like this; ten minutes or so before launch, check wind speed an direction (I'm assuming the ASDS has an anemometer). If needed, command the ASDS to move a yard or two downwind. That (a movement of 6 feet or less) wouldn't take long, and it should be at a relative standstill again by launch.

They may well be doing this already.. but I guess we will never know unless someone for SpX pipes up here.

Points 2 and 3 are very valid IMHO. Of course, the only reason to try something like this is if there's a problem that needs fixing. My guess is that for the conditions we saw, there isn't one, but stronger winds might change the equation on that and thus might make trying something along these lines worthwhile. At least, that's my guess as to what they might have in their high winds contingency folder.

The entire barge-landing scenario is a series of engineering compromises.  Stronger winds result in larger seas which would quickly reach the point where a repeat of previous attempts is likely.  Now that they've had a success, my guess is they'll compare the environmental (wind/waves) conditions and telemetry present this time with previous attempts and determine what conditions are "go" and which aren't, so repositioning the barge due to wind conditions alone rapidly becomes unnecessary.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 04/11/2016 03:59 am
Regarding point #1, I didn't mean to imply any momentum. I was thinking something like this; ten minutes or so before launch, check wind speed an direction (I'm assuming the ASDS has an anemometer). If needed, command the ASDS to move a yard or two downwind. That (a movement of 6 feet or less) wouldn't take long, and it should be at a relative standstill again by launch.
seems simpler to send the same wind data to the landing stage and have it adjust its aim to maximize the likelihood that during both the initial touch and any subsequent dancing all four feet are on or above the barge deck.

of course that requires a model (with things like sea state and wind velocity as input) for how the stage dances after landing. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 04/11/2016 04:02 am
Upthread(or maybe on the live thread) somebody brought up the concern of the sheer number of cycles that the structure within the stage will have to endure during this return trip - which raises the obvious question - is any structure that is able to handle the bending structural loads of flight and return more or less impervious to this type, magnitude, frequency and duration of repetitive cycling, full stop?  Or is this something worth digging into?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Elmar Moelzer on 04/11/2016 05:28 am
Hmmmm, maybe they could just make some sort of retractable or unfold- able deck extension to give the stage just a few more yards to land on. Maybe with an inflatable floatation device of sorts to give it a tiny bit of extra stability underneath. Not sure if that would make sense.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 04/11/2016 05:48 am
Hmmmm, maybe they could just make some sort of retractable or unfold- able deck extension to give the stage just a few more yards to land on. Maybe with an inflatable floatation device of sorts to give it a tiny bit of extra stability underneath. Not sure if that would make sense.

Let's not forget that any extendable/modular extensions to the deck size will also require something on the barge that is able to transport the stage back to center so that they can then be detached(re-sunk, whatever)/retracted before the trip home.

Edit - On to a totally different topic from earlier in the thread, but since I looked it up - As far as rocking induced by an off-center landing, a falcon 9 S1 dry mass is estimated to be less, but in the same ballpark as the standard maximum load for a single full-size cargo container.  Just for visualization/reference.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hankelow8 on 04/11/2016 08:26 am
At Elon's pass conference after the CRS-8 launch,he commented that they are expecting to be able to launch every 2/3 weeks.

I think they will have to build an extra drone ship to cover the possibility of a hard landing, especially when attempting the more extreme conditions. The repair times and turnaround to be ready for the next launch would be very difficult to meet, if the next launch was just a couple of weeks way.

The cost of building an extra drone ship to be on standby for such a situation has to be cost effective. One saved Falcon first stage  alone could be worth the cost of a standby drone ship.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 04/11/2016 08:45 am
Why are people trying to solve a problem that doesn't appear to exist?

It landed, in fairly extreme conditions.

What, exactly do they need to change? Accuracy? Why?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jarnis on 04/11/2016 09:44 am

What, exactly do they need to change? Accuracy? Why?

Yes, gotta get it closer to center so I win the landing bingo next time. This one was way to the side and totally fouled my chances :(

 :P
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: miki on 04/11/2016 10:08 am
It's interesting to note that on every ASDS landing, landing legs are parallel to the sides of the deck. If they weren't one leg could end up over the edge and the stage would tip over. They thought of everything. Great job...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/11/2016 10:22 am
seems simpler to send the same wind data to the landing stage

But I thought the stage has no mechanism to receive such data. Isn't the range safety termination signal (which I believe is completely separate from the rest of the avionics) the only thing the stage can receive, as the stage is fully autonomous?

Ok so something could be added to the stage but I'm really not sure that's warranted. If any adjustment is needed I think it's simpler to get the ASDS to do it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: The Amazing Catstronaut on 04/11/2016 10:30 am
I feel the more we complicate the guidance system the greater the danger of feedback loops. Accuracy has never really been the primary problem with ASDS, it's always been a propulsion related issue, a control surfaces issue or an issue with the landing legs which have caused stages to avoid ending up where we want them. Each time those issues get iterated out (or, at least, we haven't seen them again).

The bounce this time was due to windsheer, not guidance - and hey, they recovered it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 04/11/2016 10:53 am
Why are people trying to solve a problem that doesn't appear to exist?

It landed, in fairly extreme conditions.

What, exactly do they need to change? Accuracy? Why?

"Extreme conditions" is highly debatable.  Estimates here on this very forum bound the winds to under 25kn(look at how fast the exhaust cloud moves).  Nothing terribly out of the ordinary.  And in any case, if it's a barge landing, they have to work with what the conditions are or delay the launch, it's not like there's much wiggle room.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if they have done all of the modelling and everything will work great no matter what, even if a stage ends up bouncing off of the railing.  It also wouldn't surprise me if they haven't.

Put simply, the problem DOES exist.  This stage came too close for comfort to the edge for such a more or less nominal mission(let's not forget that they DID actually do a boost-back burn, just not a full one - this mission was as "controlled" as any other mission will be);  If they expect to successfully launch ~66% of their missions on-time and then recover them with barges going forward, then something will need to change.  I have full confidence in them to make the appropriate adjustments, though.  And my personal WAG is that they won't need a larger barge, or any type of uplink system between the barge and the stage, or to move the barge 10 minutes before landing - it'll just be updates to the software on the stage itself. (I understand where the "move the barge 10 minutes before landing" idea comes from, but if you're going to invest money in that accuracy, obviously you want to invest it in the stage.  It's just better to have the stage land on target from a system level, that's obviously where you want to put your effort - do you plan on having mobile landing platforms on Mars that can move 10 minutes before you land an MCT?  Full accuracy is pretty much on the critical path)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jet Black on 04/11/2016 10:59 am
Why are people trying to solve a problem that doesn't appear to exist?

It landed, in fairly extreme conditions.

What, exactly do they need to change? Accuracy? Why?

indeed, and also how would they do it?  Those 50mph winds are fairly close to the surface, you can't see them and there are changes in wind speed all the way up. What they've achieved is tremendous, but it also shows the massive challenges they face.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 04/11/2016 11:39 am
Why are people trying to solve a problem that doesn't appear to exist?

It landed, in fairly extreme conditions.

What, exactly do they need to change? Accuracy? Why?

"Extreme conditions" is highly debatable.  Estimates here on this very forum bound the winds to under 25kn(look at how fast the exhaust cloud moves).  Nothing terribly out of the ordinary.  And in any case, if it's a barge landing, they have to work with what the conditions are or delay the launch, it's not like there's much wiggle room.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if they have done all of the modelling and everything will work great no matter what, even if a stage ends up bouncing off of the railing.  It also wouldn't surprise me if they haven't.

Put simply, the problem DOES exist.  This stage came too close for comfort to the edge for such a more or less nominal mission(let's not forget that they DID actually do a boost-back burn, just not a full one - this mission was as "controlled" as any other mission will be);  If they expect to successfully launch ~66% of their missions on-time and then recover them with barges going forward, then something will need to change.  I have full confidence in them to make the appropriate adjustments, though.  And my personal WAG is that they won't need a larger barge, or any type of uplink system between the barge and the stage, or to move the barge 10 minutes before landing - it'll just be updates to the software on the stage itself. (I understand where the "move the barge 10 minutes before landing" idea comes from, but if you're going to invest money in that accuracy, obviously you want to invest it in the stage.  It's just better to have the stage land on target from a system level, that's obviously where you want to put your effort)

Er, I not sure anyone outside of SpaceX is in a position to say there is even a problem here. My opinion, no there isn't one, and nothing written above seems to say otherwise.

25knts of wind is actually pretty windy. It's at the high end of a Force 6, which is bordering on gale force. That classes as pretty damn high. And that, I suspect is a conservative guess at speed, at sea level, speeds further up will be much higher.

The fact this was a mission with plenty of fuel is completely irrelevant. It makes no difference to the end result whether this was an easy boostback or a hard one, the accuracy has been shown to be there in all the attempts so far.

So, since this came in within 5m accuracy wise, how do you propose a 'software fix' is going to make it more accurate? The barge is unable to tell the stage the wind conditions, and since they vary rapidly anyway, this would appear to be irrelevant.

I'm still not seeing any sort of problem here.

EDIT: taken another look at the video. Wave state is pretty indicative of force 6, with some streaks possibly indicating close to a 7. Looking closely at the way the stage moves' as it touches down and the angle of the barge, indicated it landing first on the right leg (as seen from video) on a slightly sloping deck, This caused it to hop slightly to the left, which is pretty much what you would expect when coming down on a sloping deck. And I'm pretty damn sure there's nothing you can do about a sloping deck, except avoid flying when the sea state means it's likely to be too angled.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 04/11/2016 11:49 am
Why are people trying to solve a problem that doesn't appear to exist?

It landed, in fairly extreme conditions.

What, exactly do they need to change? Accuracy? Why?

"Extreme conditions" is highly debatable.  Estimates here on this very forum bound the winds to under 25kn(look at how fast the exhaust cloud moves).  Nothing terribly out of the ordinary.  And in any case, if it's a barge landing, they have to work with what the conditions are or delay the launch, it's not like there's much wiggle room.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if they have done all of the modelling and everything will work great no matter what, even if a stage ends up bouncing off of the railing.  It also wouldn't surprise me if they haven't.

Put simply, the problem DOES exist.  This stage came too close for comfort to the edge for such a more or less nominal mission(let's not forget that they DID actually do a boost-back burn, just not a full one - this mission was as "controlled" as any other mission will be);  If they expect to successfully launch ~66% of their missions on-time and then recover them with barges going forward, then something will need to change.  I have full confidence in them to make the appropriate adjustments, though.  And my personal WAG is that they won't need a larger barge, or any type of uplink system between the barge and the stage, or to move the barge 10 minutes before landing - it'll just be updates to the software on the stage itself. (I understand where the "move the barge 10 minutes before landing" idea comes from, but if you're going to invest money in that accuracy, obviously you want to invest it in the stage.  It's just better to have the stage land on target from a system level, that's obviously where you want to put your effort)

Er, I not sure anyone outside of SpaceX is in a position to say there is even a problem here. My opinion, no there isn't one, and nothing written above seems to say otherwise.

25knts of wind is actually pretty windy. It's at the high end of a Force 6, which is bordering on gale force. That classes as pretty damn high. And that, I suspect is a conservative guess at speed, at sea level, speeds further up will be much higher.

The fact this was a mission with plenty of fuel is completely irrelevant. It makes no difference to the end result whether this was an easy boostback or a hard one, the accuracy has been shown to be there in all the attempts so far.

So, since this came in within 5m accuracy wise, how do you propose a 'software fix' is going to make it more accurate? The barge is unable to tell the stage the wind conditions, and since they vary rapidly anyway, this would appear to be irrelevant.

I'm still not seeing any sort of problem here.

It was obviously aware of the wind conditions because it came in at a higher angle than usual.  Simple refinements to the model given the high quality telemetry from this landing and others in the future.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 04/11/2016 11:54 am
Why are people trying to solve a problem that doesn't appear to exist?

It landed, in fairly extreme conditions.

What, exactly do they need to change? Accuracy? Why?

"Extreme conditions" is highly debatable.  Estimates here on this very forum bound the winds to under 25kn(look at how fast the exhaust cloud moves).  Nothing terribly out of the ordinary.  And in any case, if it's a barge landing, they have to work with what the conditions are or delay the launch, it's not like there's much wiggle room.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if they have done all of the modelling and everything will work great no matter what, even if a stage ends up bouncing off of the railing.  It also wouldn't surprise me if they haven't.

Put simply, the problem DOES exist.  This stage came too close for comfort to the edge for such a more or less nominal mission(let's not forget that they DID actually do a boost-back burn, just not a full one - this mission was as "controlled" as any other mission will be);  If they expect to successfully launch ~66% of their missions on-time and then recover them with barges going forward, then something will need to change.  I have full confidence in them to make the appropriate adjustments, though.  And my personal WAG is that they won't need a larger barge, or any type of uplink system between the barge and the stage, or to move the barge 10 minutes before landing - it'll just be updates to the software on the stage itself. (I understand where the "move the barge 10 minutes before landing" idea comes from, but if you're going to invest money in that accuracy, obviously you want to invest it in the stage.  It's just better to have the stage land on target from a system level, that's obviously where you want to put your effort)

Er, I not sure anyone outside of SpaceX is in a position to say there is even a problem here. My opinion, no there isn't one, and nothing written above seems to say otherwise.

25knts of wind is actually pretty windy. It's at the high end of a Force 6, which is bordering on gale force. That classes as pretty damn high. And that, I suspect is a conservative guess at speed, at sea level, speeds further up will be much higher.

The fact this was a mission with plenty of fuel is completely irrelevant. It makes no difference to the end result whether this was an easy boostback or a hard one, the accuracy has been shown to be there in all the attempts so far.

So, since this came in within 5m accuracy wise, how do you propose a 'software fix' is going to make it more accurate? The barge is unable to tell the stage the wind conditions, and since they vary rapidly anyway, this would appear to be irrelevant.

I'm still not seeing any sort of problem here.

It was obviously aware of the wind conditions because it came in at a higher angle than usual.  Simple refinements to the model given the high quality telemetry from this landing and others in the future.

It knows the wind conditions from it's change in GPS positioning, but that doesn't indicate what the conditions are like close to the surface. And as we have been told multiple times, there is apparently NO communications from the barge to the stage, so there's nothing being sent to tell it of the conditions on the surface.

They MIGHT preprogram approximate conditions in to the stage before flight, to give it a hint on how to deal with them, but on  the whole it seems like a closed loop system that knows where it is and where it has to go, and compensates for conditions on the way down.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 04/11/2016 12:03 pm
I understand that it only has it's own GPS and/or intertial reference to work with.

I've written quite a few closed-loop systems in my time, and I refuse to believe that they can't just make it land on target rather than hopping and skidding, now that they know that can happen and have high quality telemetry of exactly that happening.  At least for this case - They may also need high quality telemetry from an actual ~50MPH winds landing to refine the closed-loop code to nail that landing as well.

Edit - I can't find the exact abort criteria for this mission, but would just like to point out that going from memory, 25kn is either below or close to typical green launch criteria for the stage itself.  Characterizing that as "extreme conditions" is a bit of a stretch if you want to be realistic about launching 66% of your missions on-time, because off-shore landing conditions seem to be characteristically worse than launch conditions, at least so far.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Citabria on 04/11/2016 01:01 pm
As pilot of a light plane, I am the closed-loop system. A smooth landing requires bringing 6 parameters to zero all at the same instant: height; vertical speed; distance from centerline; sideways speed; yaw; and yaw rate. Doing that in variable, gusty winds is quite a challenge. If any of those has to be sacrificed for the sake of the others, it's probably distance from centerline, within limits of runway width.

Falcon has 12 to zero simultaneously:  height; vertical speed; distance from center in two axes; sideways speed in two axes; and pitch, yaw, and roll, plus their rates. That's why it's so impressive when it works, even if a few meters off center.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 04/11/2016 01:05 pm
As pilot of a light plane, I am the closed-loop system. A smooth landing requires bringing 6 parameters to zero all at the same instant: height; vertical speed; distance from centerline; sideways speed; yaw; and yaw rate. Doing that in variable, gusty winds is quite a challenge. If any of those has to be sacrificed for the sake of the others, it's probably distance from centerline, within limits of runway width.

Falcon has 12 to zero simultaneously:  height; vertical speed; distance from center in two axes; sideways speed in two axes; and pitch, yaw, and roll, plus their rates. That's why it's so impressive when it works, even if a few meters off center.

There does, however, exist closed-loop software that can do things like land an X-47B(which is an aerodynamically unstable airframe in it's own right) on an aircraft carrier in a comms contingency situation.  I have some insight into that particular software.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/11/2016 01:16 pm
Edit - I can't find the exact abort criteria for this mission, but would just like to point out that going from memory, 25kn is either below or close to typical green launch criteria for the stage itself.  Characterizing that as "extreme conditions" is a bit of a stretch if you want to be realistic about launching 66% of your missions on-time, because off-shore landing conditions seem to be characteristically worse than launch conditions, at least so far.

For past ASDS landings, the criterion was 20 kts wind max. For the OG2 landing at LZ-1, it was 50 mph wind max.

Judging from the well-damped pitch motion of the stage during the landing, staying pitched into the wind then righting itself pefectly with no overshoot, it looks like they've got the attitude control loop dialed in perfectly for wind compensation, and I wouldn't be surprised if a limit higher than 20 kts is now the "new normal" for the stage landing limit.

But winds a bit above that are going to make ASDS grappling/towing dangerous, with high waves as we saw during the "storm" launch that banged up the ASDS.

So we may have reached the point where the limiting factor for landing is no longer the effect of winds on the stage autopilot, but the sea conditions caused by high winds and the resulting operational difficulties.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 04/11/2016 01:21 pm
Edit - I can't find the exact abort criteria for this mission, but would just like to point out that going from memory, 25kn is either below or close to typical green launch criteria for the stage itself.  Characterizing that as "extreme conditions" is a bit of a stretch if you want to be realistic about launching 66% of your missions on-time, because off-shore landing conditions seem to be characteristically worse than launch conditions, at least so far.

For past ASDS landings, the criterion was 20 kts wind max. For the OG2 landing at LZ-1, it was 50 mph wind max.

Judging from the well-damped pitch motion of the stage during the landing, staying pitched into the wind then righting itself pefectly with no overshoot, it looks like they've got the attitude control loop dialed in perfectly for wind compensation, and I wouldn't be surprised if a limit higher than 20 kts is now the "new normal" for the stage landing limit.

But winds a bit above that are going to make ASDS grappling/towing dangerous, with high waves as we saw during the "storm" launch that banged up the ASDS.

So we may have reached the point where the limiting factor for landing is no longer the effect of winds on the stage autopilot, but the sea conditions caused by high winds and the resulting operational difficulties.

Out of curiosity, what makes you think it wouldn't skid twice as far in 50MPH winds?  Not trying to be confrontational at all.  To me it looks like the system didn't take any translation after MECO(?) into account at all despite doing admirably well up to that point.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/11/2016 01:43 pm
Quote
Out of curiosity, what makes you think it wouldn't skid twice as far in 50MPH winds?  Not trying to be confrontational at all.  To me it looks like the system didn't take any translation after MECO(?) into account at all despite doing admirably well up to that point.

The stage landed successfully despite the skidding, and I guess we could quibble about whether that makes the wind compensation "perfect," which I assume is your point. Could they refine the control loop even further to eliminate skidding? Maybe.

But my point was that barge landings in 50 mph winds (or therabouts) are not even going to be possible because of the operational difficulties. So why bother worrying about more skidding at 50 mph? And 50 mph winds at LZ-1 at the Cape will violate LCC's and cause a scrub anyway.

So if the autpilot's wind compensation is not yet "perfect," it's quite good enough, and now the limiting factors are probably ASDS ops in high winds, and launch wind constraints.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 04/11/2016 02:17 pm
I think the skid was more to do with the 'right' leg landing before the others, making it momentarily susceptible to wind pressure, with only one leg down. As soon as all legs were on deck it stopped moving. *

There's not a lot you can do about that since the barge orientation is unpredictable/unfollowable, ie you cannot reorient the stage angle to match the barge.


* This is presumably why there is an upper limit of deck angle - the legs can only absorb so much, so need to get all legs down before the absorption capacity of any one leg is exceeded.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/11/2016 02:37 pm
There's a control inversion issue once one leg is touching.  That's actually probably the cause of the bump.  Solution is either to explicitly model the control inversion in software, or else just come down a little "harder" to minimize it.  The legs can probably take a bit harder landing.  My opinion is still that we are seeing a little bounce due to the shutdown transient, and that can be modelled away.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/11/2016 03:03 pm
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kaputnik on 04/11/2016 03:05 pm
The fact this was a mission with plenty of fuel is completely irrelevant. It makes no difference to the end result whether this was an easy boostback or a hard one, the accuracy has been shown to be there in all the attempts so far.


It is highly relevant.
The stage would have been, in effect, ballasted by the additional remaining propellants. This would ease up the constraints on the final burn by lowering the thrust to weight ratio and giving the engine and guidance system more leeway to set down safely.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 04/11/2016 03:42 pm
The fact this was a mission with plenty of fuel is completely irrelevant. It makes no difference to the end result whether this was an easy boostback or a hard one, the accuracy has been shown to be there in all the attempts so far.


It is highly relevant.
The stage would have been, in effect, ballasted by the additional remaining propellants. This would ease up the constraints on the final burn by lowering the thrust to weight ratio and giving the engine and guidance system more leeway to set down safely.

Make no difference. Stage knows how much fuel it has, compensates. There is no leeway. There is simply stage weight vs engine thrust.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 04/11/2016 04:17 pm
Why are people trying to solve a problem that doesn't appear to exist?

It landed, in fairly extreme conditions.

What, exactly do they need to change? Accuracy? Why?

I agree, but let's add some numbers.
Here is an image from the CRS-8 Barge Bingo thread. (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39977.msg1513562#msg1513562)
Scaling from a 53 meter width of the ASDS, the legs spread across ~16.5 m.
If it comes down at the center, and square to the deck, there are 18 m left on each side.
The CRS-8 first stage came to rest with about 9.5 m from the rail.
That means it used up about half the margin in a 23 knot wind. 
We can (probably can't resist the urge to) debate whether or not that qualifies as "extreme" but twice that would definitely be extreme.
They will continue to refine the control system.
It remains hard to make the case that a more complex system is required.

edit: OxCartMark:  "I feel your pain" but it's hopeless.  I will not make the excuse that people discussing adding windage to the ASDS location makes this relevant to the thread title.
In which thread would you have us discuss landing dynamics?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 04/11/2016 04:23 pm
The fact this was a mission with plenty of fuel is completely irrelevant. It makes no difference to the end result whether this was an easy boostback or a hard one, the accuracy has been shown to be there in all the attempts so far.


It is highly relevant.
The stage would have been, in effect, ballasted by the additional remaining propellants. This would ease up the constraints on the final burn by lowering the thrust to weight ratio and giving the engine and guidance system more leeway to set down safely.

Make no difference. Stage knows how much fuel it has, compensates. There is no leeway. There is simply stage weight vs engine thrust.

On SES-9, it wasn't even known whether the stage would structurally survive re-entry, much less with all of it's critical components intact.  It's critical components WEREN'T intact, and it under-thrusted.  Could this be because of physical deformation(or full-on detachment) of an expansion nozzle?  SpaceX will probably never tell us.

Anyway, I mentioned that it was a normal profile for that reason.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kaputnik on 04/11/2016 04:36 pm
The fact this was a mission with plenty of fuel is completely irrelevant. It makes no difference to the end result whether this was an easy boostback or a hard one, the accuracy has been shown to be there in all the attempts so far.


It is highly relevant.
The stage would have been, in effect, ballasted by the additional remaining propellants. This would ease up the constraints on the final burn by lowering the thrust to weight ratio and giving the engine and guidance system more leeway to set down safely.

Make no difference. Stage knows how much fuel it has, compensates. There is no leeway. There is simply stage weight vs engine thrust.

In an ideal world, yes. But in that ideal world there are no unknown thrust transients at startup and shutdown, there are no variable crosswinds, or slight inaccuracies in positioning data.
Fact is, a ballasted stage is going to be easier to land than an empty one. Look at the early GH flights- a much heavier vehicle that could actually hover. Of course that is going to be easier to fly, you have a wider range of control authority.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 04/12/2016 06:14 am
Shoes.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/12/2016 06:38 am
Shoes.  :)

The position of those jack-stands makes the NSF Bingo winner beyond doubt.

And these are the shoes..  more like sandals, really :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 04/12/2016 01:53 pm
Even looking at the little tiny people on deck, it's a bit hard to get a true feel of how massive everything is when you have an ASDS with a Falcon 9 first stage landed on it.  To try to put it in a little perspective, perhaps someone should post a photo of what an ASDS looks like close up...

Okay, maybe that doesn't really help.  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/12/2016 03:18 pm
Port Canaveral VHF traffic was reporting an overturned kayak somewhere out there...glad it wasn't you.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 04/12/2016 04:58 pm
@ClayJar this is new photo?  :D

If you happen to take photos of this barge, it would be usefull for my scale model. Closer the better  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/12/2016 10:35 pm
SpaceX now has (or will soon have), for the first time, hard data on what a successful landing does to an ASDS.

My guess is there might be a few very minor changes (both physical and procedural) to the ASDS as a result - the kind of minor fine-tuning that can only come with practice.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/13/2016 03:32 am
SpaceX now has (or will soon have), for the first time, hard data on what a successful landing does to an ASDS.

My guess is there might be a few very minor changes (both physical and procedural) to the ASDS as a result - the kind of minor fine-tuning that can only come with practice.
Like a giant hand or lobster claw that grabs the stage to keep it from toppling over or fences that come up from all sides or a swirling lassoo or welders on the tips of the landing feet (no, neodymium magnets!) or maybe super huge airbags, that's what I think the changes will be from what I read earlier in the ASDS threads and elsewhere.  Or maybe stick some hydrofoils under the ASDS so that it can come back quicker.

More seriously, I think they have probably known for months what their likely progression path is and wanted to see a landing to confirm that they were on the right path before investing the money.  Short of the longer term refuel and flyback upgrades I think most of the revisions we see will be in the areas of capacity and speed.  More ASDSs , possibly 3 ASDS (per launch site? hmm, nah) to extend FH capacity, or just 2 to cover transit times and occasional kaboom fixup, and some TBD way to get the landed stage back to shore.

It seems like a long time back now that we were rooting for the barge fixers to get it done so that we had a hope of catching the CRS-8 core.  Just a few days back but easy to forget with the recent happy events.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 04/13/2016 04:05 am
 I'm still waiting for them to contract Austal to make a 400 foot cat. Much more stable and 25 knots in rough seas.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/13/2016 05:44 am
SpaceX now has (or will soon have), for the first time, hard data on what a successful landing does to an ASDS.

My guess is there might be a few very minor changes (both physical and procedural) to the ASDS as a result - the kind of minor fine-tuning that can only come with practice.
Like a giant hand or lobster claw that grabs the stage to keep it from toppling over or fences that come up from all sides or a swirling lassoo or welders on the tips of the landing feet (no, neodymium magnets!) or maybe super huge airbags, that's what I think the changes will be from what I read earlier in the ASDS threads and elsewhere.  Or maybe stick some hydrofoils under the ASDS so that it can come back quicker.

More seriously, I think they have probably known for months what their likely progression path is and wanted to see a landing to confirm that they were on the right path before investing the money.  Short of the longer term refuel and flyback upgrades I think most of the revisions we see will be in the areas of capacity and speed.  More ASDSs , possibly 3 ASDS (per launch site? hmm, nah) to extend FH capacity, or just 2 to cover transit times and occasional kaboom fixup, and some TBD way to get the landed stage back to shore.

It seems like a long time back now that we were rooting for the barge fixers to get it done so that we had a hope of catching the CRS-8 core.  Just a few days back but easy to forget with the recent happy events.

Hey, you forgot the Merlins, so the ASDS can fly back. :)

I do agree that they would wait until one or more landings to see what's really needed before spending a lot of money.
My wild guesses as to the short-term upgrades would be things like considering a panable camera for having a remote look-around at a landed stage (especially in cases of difficulty), upgrading the nav lights with metal instead of plastic covers if there was heat damage, that sort of thing (if deemed needful, of course). One other upgrade I'm looking for *IF* they are troubled by wind-caused movement of a landing F9 downwind; an anemometer (which I'm rather surprised the ASDS does not have already). And... given the need to get personnel (who might not be used to boats) on board the ASDS, as we saw at the harbor mouth, perhaps a rope ladder.     

Not exactly big ticket items, but they are the kind of minor tweaking I'll be keeping an eye out for in the short term. My basis for this is having seen many people make similar small usability tweaks after acquiring a new house, yacht, fishing trawler, 18 wheeler, etc. They see what's needed in practice, then start making small improvements. (and of course, I may be comparing apples to oranges here and be totally wrong).

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/13/2016 06:01 am
Folly - Not for serious comment.  I can think of as many reasons this is a bad idea as you can, probably more.




Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Falcon Heavy Spaceport Drone Ship;
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: darkenfast on 04/13/2016 06:10 am
Even looking at the little tiny people on deck, it's a bit hard to get a true feel of how massive everything is when you have an ASDS with a Falcon 9 first stage landed on it.  To try to put it in a little perspective, perhaps someone should post a photo of what an ASDS looks like close up...

Okay, maybe that doesn't really help.  ;D
"It's no use, Mr. Bond.  We were watching you and your little cockleshell the entire time!"
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 04/13/2016 11:30 am
I'm still waiting for them to contract Austal to make a 400 foot cat. Much more stable and 25 knots in rough seas.

I think whizzing along at 25knots with a F9 on top would be rather a foolish endeavour. It looks like they came back slower than they could have done anyway. Speed doesn't appear to be an issue.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kaputnik on 04/13/2016 12:19 pm
It might help, though, to get the ASDS out on station a bit quicker.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 04/13/2016 01:02 pm
It might help, though, to get the ASDS out on station a bit quicker.

Why would they need that? I suspect it would be cheaper and more convenient to have multiple converted barges that have a custom made catamaran hulled landing pad. (since barges seem to be fast enough for the return trip already)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 04/13/2016 01:41 pm
I'm still waiting for them to contract Austal to make a 400 foot cat. Much more stable and 25 knots in rough seas.

I think whizzing along at 25knots with a F9 on top would be rather a foolish endeavour. It looks like they came back slower than they could have done anyway. Speed doesn't appear to be an issue.

Oh come on, sporty!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 04/13/2016 04:05 pm
I'm still waiting for them to contract Austal to make a 400 foot cat. Much more stable and 25 knots in rough seas.

I think whizzing along at 25knots with a F9 on top would be rather a foolish endeavour. It looks like they came back slower than they could have done anyway. Speed doesn't appear to be an issue.
They didn't come back slow because they didn't care about time. They came back slow because it was a little boat towing a big barge. Empty barges tend to lift up and slam down while under tow even at low speed and mild seas. They're not made for a gentle ride. A high speed cat or trimaran type hull would be a much more stable, able to go around weather and probably increase success rate from it's greater stability during landing and greater availability from being able to get places faster. Once they get going, a single lost stage would be considerable money.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: muazcatalyst on 04/13/2016 04:44 pm
Once they get going, a single lost stage would be considerable money.

What do you mean by this phrase?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 04/13/2016 06:19 pm
I'm still waiting for them to contract Austal to make a 400 foot cat. Much more stable and 25 knots in rough seas.

I think whizzing along at 25knots with a F9 on top would be rather a foolish endeavour. It looks like they came back slower than they could have done anyway. Speed doesn't appear to be an issue.
They didn't come back slow because they didn't care about time. They came back slow because it was a little boat towing a big barge. Empty barges tend to lift up and slam down while under tow even at low speed and mild seas. They're not made for a gentle ride. A high speed cat or trimaran type hull would be a much more stable, able to go around weather and probably increase success rate from it's greater stability during landing and greater availability from being able to get places faster. Once they get going, a single lost stage would be considerable money.

Sorry, my post read wrong. I meant that the barge could return faster, but they didn't because they have an F9 sitting on it, not that they came in slow because they were not in a hurry.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 04/13/2016 06:59 pm
SpaceX could have Austral build a larger version of the Spearhead-class expeditionary fast transport ships.
or like the Sea Slice demonstrator, but utilizing an updated version of Hughes Surge compensator.

The Surge Compensator worked a lot like a video camera steady cam system.

see this historical document to see how it worked for Hughes Glomar Explorer/ CIA USSR sub retrieval ship

http://www.maritime.org/doc/glomarexplorer/index.htm (http://www.maritime.org/doc/glomarexplorer/index.htm)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 04/13/2016 07:18 pm
I'm still waiting for them to contract Austal to make a 400 foot cat. Much more stable and 25 knots in rough seas.

SpaceX could have Austral build a larger version of the Spearhead-class expeditionary fast transport ships.
or like the Sea Slice demonstrator, but utilizing an updated version of Hughes Surge compensator.
...
My only concern about these (besides initial investment) is that the beauty of the barge is it's so easy to fix.  Outboard motors, equipment containers, a flat deck and no cabin.  Rockets may not be LEGO elements, but the current ASDS is.

But maybe once they get all the kinks worked out, who knows.  It would be super cool.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CraigLieb on 04/13/2016 07:46 pm
SpaceX now has (or will soon have), for the first time, hard data on what a successful landing does to an ASDS.

My guess is there might be a few very minor changes (both physical and procedural) to the ASDS as a result - the kind of minor fine-tuning that can only come with practice.
Like a giant hand or lobster claw that grabs the stage to keep it from toppling over or fences that come up from all sides or a swirling lassoo or welders on the tips of the landing feet (no, neodymium magnets!) or maybe super huge airbags, that's what I think the changes will be from what I read earlier in the ASDS threads and elsewhere.  Or maybe stick some hydrofoils under the ASDS so that it can come back quicker.

More seriously, I think they have probably known for months what their likely progression path is and wanted to see a landing to confirm that they were on the right path before investing the money.  Short of the longer term refuel and flyback upgrades I think most of the revisions we see will be in the areas of capacity and speed.  More ASDSs , possibly 3 ASDS (per launch site? hmm, nah) to extend FH capacity, or just 2 to cover transit times and occasional kaboom fixup, and some TBD way to get the landed stage back to shore.

It seems like a long time back now that we were rooting for the barge fixers to get it done so that we had a hope of catching the CRS-8 core.  Just a few days back but easy to forget with the recent happy events.

Don't forget the ball pit!  ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 04/13/2016 07:54 pm

More seriously, I think they have probably known for months what their likely progression path is and wanted to see a landing to confirm that they were on the right path before investing the money.  Short of the longer term refuel and flyback upgrades I think most of the revisions we see will be in the areas of capacity and speed.  More ASDSs , possibly 3 ASDS (per launch site? hmm, nah) to extend FH capacity, or just 2 to cover transit times and occasional kaboom fixup, and some TBD way to get the landed stage back to shore.


No, not really.  Most of the landings are going back to land and not barges.  Ocean landings will be an exception and not the rule.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: KSHavre on 04/13/2016 08:14 pm

More seriously, I think they have probably known for months what their likely progression path is and wanted to see a landing to confirm that they were on the right path before investing the money.  Short of the longer term refuel and flyback upgrades I think most of the revisions we see will be in the areas of capacity and speed.  More ASDSs , possibly 3 ASDS (per launch site? hmm, nah) to extend FH capacity, or just 2 to cover transit times and occasional kaboom fixup, and some TBD way to get the landed stage back to shore.


No, not really.  Most of the landings are going back to land and not barges.  Ocean landings will be an exception and not the rule.

According the Elon in the post launch press conference, about half will be at sea; anything more than LEO...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AnalogMan on 04/13/2016 11:59 pm

More seriously, I think they have probably known for months what their likely progression path is and wanted to see a landing to confirm that they were on the right path before investing the money.  Short of the longer term refuel and flyback upgrades I think most of the revisions we see will be in the areas of capacity and speed.  More ASDSs , possibly 3 ASDS (per launch site? hmm, nah) to extend FH capacity, or just 2 to cover transit times and occasional kaboom fixup, and some TBD way to get the landed stage back to shore.


No, not really.  Most of the landings are going back to land and not barges.  Ocean landings will be an exception and not the rule.

According the Elon in the post launch press conference, about half will be at sea; anything more than LEO...

The fuller answer to how often SpaceX planned to do ground landings was:

"Right now we expect about half our landings to be ground and then half to be ocean landings.  And then over time as we refine the performance of the rocket and it can improve the ... just all the elements of flight ... and its amazing how a few percent improvement here and there sorta adds up and then you are able achieve enough margin to bring it back all the way to land.

"So we're hopeful that in the long run we'll move from say half of our missions being ocean landing to maybe a third of them or a quarter - 'cause it certainly is a lot easier to re-fly the rocket if comes back to land."


Can be found at at 26:00 in the video of the press conference posted here:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39537.msg1513775#msg1513775 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39537.msg1513775#msg1513775)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 04/14/2016 01:09 am

More seriously, I think they have probably known for months what their likely progression path is and wanted to see a landing to confirm that they were on the right path before investing the money.  Short of the longer term refuel and flyback upgrades I think most of the revisions we see will be in the areas of capacity and speed.  More ASDSs , possibly 3 ASDS (per launch site? hmm, nah) to extend FH capacity, or just 2 to cover transit times and occasional kaboom fixup, and some TBD way to get the landed stage back to shore.


No, not really.  Most of the landings are going back to land and not barges.  Ocean landings will be an exception and not the rule.

According the Elon in the post launch press conference, about half will be at sea; anything more than LEO...

The fuller answer to how often SpaceX planned to do ground landings was:

"Right now we expect about half our landings to be ground and then half to be ocean landings.  And then over time as we refine the performance of the rocket and it can improve the ... just all the elements of flight ... and its amazing how a few percent improvement here and there sorta adds up and then you are able achieve enough margin to bring it back all the way to land.

"So we're hopeful that in the long run we'll move from say half of our missions being ocean landing to maybe a third of them or a quarter - 'cause it certainly is a lot easier to re-fly the rocket if comes back to land."


Can be found at at 26:00 in the video of the press conference posted here:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39537.msg1513775#msg1513775 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39537.msg1513775#msg1513775)

A shift in a larger proportion of landings by SpaceX flights back to the launch site is unlikely IMO. Since the Satcom operators will just increase their birds' mass to take advantage of any excess performance from the SpaceX launchers.


But to get more on topic. The current ASDS barge conversions will have to be replaced with something bigger and more speedy eventually. Recovering the FH center core from further out in the ocean with the current set up will take at least 48 hours each on the outbound leg  and return leg.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 04/14/2016 02:27 am
They didn't come back slow because they didn't care about time. They came back slow because it was a little boat towing a big barge.

Sorry, my post read wrong. I meant that the barge could return faster, but they didn't because they have an F9 sitting on it, not that they came in slow because they were not in a hurry.


I think it was sometime after I read mvpel's post below (from the launch viewing thread) that I theorized w/o saying so earlier, I think they were stalling, instructed to time their arrival when huge crowds wouldn't be as likely to overrun the area again so soon. Even the Space Coast probably has their limits.


A record-territory crowd yesterday at the visitor center in excess of 14,000 I heard from the KSC director, and stuffed causeways and beach parking all up and down the Cape I heard from someone ahead of me in line at the grocery store who got stuck in mind-boggling traffic jams.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/14/2016 03:43 am
But to get more on topic. The current ASDS barge conversions will have to be replaced with something bigger and more speedy eventually. Recovering the FH center core from further out in the ocean with the current set up will take at least 48 hours each on the outbound leg  and return leg.

In the approximate direction of on-topic.. I assume you're forgetting SpX's stated original plan was to prep the stages out there and fly them back Grasshopper (would that be Sea-hopper?) -style??

The ASDS can then, potentially, wait around out there for the next one.


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 04/14/2016 09:18 am
But to get more on topic. The current ASDS barge conversions will have to be replaced with something bigger and more speedy eventually. Recovering the FH center core from further out in the ocean with the current set up will take at least 48 hours each on the outbound leg  and return leg.

In the approximate direction of on-topic.. I assume you're forgetting SpX's stated original plan was to prep the stages out there and fly them back Grasshopper (would that be Sea-hopper?) -style??

The ASDS can then, potentially, wait around out there for the next one.

No I didn't forget the hop back to launch site idea.

The current ASDS is just too small to act as launch platform or to be on station in the middle of the Atlantic for weeks at a time. IMO

Something like a 10000 tons Landing ship dock variant with flat top armored landing deck and well deck capable of 15 knot cursing cruising speed.


edit: auto-correct, sigh.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/14/2016 02:07 pm
I think SpaceX has found their "barge with stuff bolted on" model working well so far.  I wouldn't be surprised if the first "hop back" attempts used another barge fitted as a launch platform, with integrated transporter erector and tankage.  As we're seeing with the dockside work on the CRS-8 stage, though, there's currently a lot of involved crane and cherry-picker work involved in recycling a stage (although maybe some of the tank flushes and leg work wouldn't be needed if it were to hop back?).  I suspect we'd see some sort of automated handling ground-side first, and then that same automated handler/Transporter/Erector would show up integrated with a barge.

Best to keep launch and landing barges separate, at least for the initial experimentation phase.  IMO.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: starhawk92 on 04/14/2016 05:12 pm
But to get more on topic. The current ASDS barge conversions will have to be replaced with something bigger and more speedy eventually. Recovering the FH center core from further out in the ocean with the current set up will take at least 48 hours each on the outbound leg  and return leg.

In the approximate direction of on-topic.. I assume you're forgetting SpX's stated original plan was to prep the stages out there and fly them back Grasshopper (would that be Sea-hopper?) -style??

The ASDS can then, potentially, wait around out there for the next one.

No I didn't forget the hop back to launch site idea.

The current ASDS is just too small to act as launch platform or to be on station in the middle of the Atlantic for weeks at a time. IMO

Something like a 10000 tons Landing ship dock variant with flat top armored landing deck and well deck capable of 15 knot cursing speed.

I have an idea which should fit the bill!  She's an oldie but a beauty!!
http://www.nimitz.navy.mil/ (http://www.nimitz.navy.mil/)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 04/14/2016 11:45 pm
I think SpaceX has found their "barge with stuff bolted on" model working well so far.  I wouldn't be surprised if the first "hop back" attempts used another barge fitted as a launch platform, with integrated transporter erector and tankage.  As we're seeing with the dockside work on the CRS-8 stage, though, there's currently a lot of involved crane and cherry-picker work involved in recycling a stage (although maybe some of the tank flushes and leg work wouldn't be needed if it were to hop back?).  I suspect we'd see some sort of automated handling ground-side first, and then that same automated handler/Transporter/Erector would show up integrated with a barge.

Best to keep launch and landing barges separate, at least for the initial experimentation phase.  IMO.

There is the small matter of transferring the F9 core from the landing barge to the launching barge in the middle of the Ocean. ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/15/2016 12:36 am
Cranes are routinely fitted to barges.  Now, I'm sure the actual transfer at sea would be anything but routine.  But I think it would be worthwhile to keep the tall crane-y bits well away from the landing barge during the hoverslam.  Or not---maybe the precision is such that they could stick a crane in one corner of the landing barge and not worry.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jakusb on 04/15/2016 06:54 am
But to get more on topic. The current ASDS barge conversions will have to be replaced with something bigger and more speedy eventually. Recovering the FH center core from further out in the ocean with the current set up will take at least 48 hours each on the outbound leg  and return leg.

In the approximate direction of on-topic.. I assume you're forgetting SpX's stated original plan was to prep the stages out there and fly them back Grasshopper (would that be Sea-hopper?) -style??

The ASDS can then, potentially, wait around out there for the next one.

No I didn't forget the hop back to launch site idea.

The current ASDS is just too small to act as launch platform or to be on station in the middle of the Atlantic for weeks at a time. IMO

Something like a 10000 tons Landing ship dock variant with flat top armored landing deck and well deck capable of 15 knot cursing speed.

I guess this would be a relative low speed launch an transfer trajectory. Would it not be possible to simply launch from its own legs it landed on? Like grasshopper? One engine, low altitude.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kaputnik on 04/15/2016 07:12 am

There is the small matter of transferring the F9 core from the landing barge to the launching barge in the middle of the Ocean. ::)

Exactly!
Crane mounted barges are used in harbours for construction work etc. The relative motion between two vessels at sea would make offloading something the size of a F9 first stage more than sporty...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Okie_Steve on 04/15/2016 02:18 pm
Taking the state horizontal on an ASDS would also be a sort of tight fit given it's about 150 feet tall and they only have a square about 180 feet on a side to work with given the blast walls and containers etc on the long axis.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/15/2016 02:25 pm
You've convinced me: no horizontal processing, no T/E, and no cranes.  Just "gas and go", taking off from the legs where it's sitting.  Hence no hold downs, either!  F9dev flew this way (which is why it was lost...). Still might be worth having an extra vessel for the propellant tanks, pumps, and chillers.  Just tie it up alongside and run some umbilicals to the base to fuel 'er up, then back off a safe distance and launch.

And I still say that any extra utility vessels are likely to be converted barges.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 04/15/2016 02:56 pm
F9dev flew this way

It was launched from a stand
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 04/15/2016 06:57 pm
You've convinced me: no horizontal processing, no T/E, and no cranes.  Just "gas and go", taking off from the legs where it's sitting.  Hence no hold downs, either!  F9dev flew this way (which is why it was lost...). Still might be worth having an extra vessel for the propellant tanks, pumps, and chillers.  Just tie it up alongside and run some umbilicals to the base to fuel 'er up, then back off a safe distance and launch.

And I still say that any extra utility vessels are likely to be converted barges.

The GH flights were very short, and towards the end (GH2) they used a stand (though no hold downs yet)

Remember the legs can't fold themselves in flight...

A fly-back shot is much more substantial - while suborbital, it is quite a bit more serious than the "Karman Line" shots.  We're talking traveling 1000 km here, going up to about 500...

It is not an easy task at all.  You'd want to have the rocket achieve a very high degree of reusability before you start doing fly-backs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 04/17/2016 03:16 am
I have an idea which should fit the bill!  She's an oldie but a beauty!!
http://www.nimitz.navy.mil/ (http://www.nimitz.navy.mil/)

Of course you were kidding with the Nimitz still in service (your current or former ship I take it), but your post brought to mind the USS Saratoga (CV-60 Supercarrier). Too bad SpaceX didn't grab it before it was sold for scrap for one penny just 2 years ago (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/09/uss-saratoga-destined-for-dismantling-after-one-cent-deal-with-texas-firm.html), after sitting mothballed for 20 years. It went to be dismantled in of all places, Brownsville Texas, the future site of new SpaceX launch facilities.

Edit: The article from 2014 did say the Saratoga was the 2nd of 3 carriers planned for scrap, but they didn't name the 3rd, so it might still be around.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 04/17/2016 09:15 am
I have an idea which should fit the bill!  She's an oldie but a beauty!!
http://www.nimitz.navy.mil/ (http://www.nimitz.navy.mil/)

Of course you were kidding with the Nimitz still in service (your current or former ship I take it), but your post brought to mind the USS Saratoga (CV-60 Supercarrier). Too bad SpaceX didn't grab it before it was sold for scrap for one penny just 2 years ago (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/09/uss-saratoga-destined-for-dismantling-after-one-cent-deal-with-texas-firm.html), after sitting mothballed for 20 years. It went to be dismantled in of all places, Brownsville Texas, the future site of new SpaceX launch facilities.

Edit: The article from 2014 did say the Saratoga was the 2nd of 3 carriers planned for scrap, but they didn't name the 3rd, so it might still be around.
There are two full sized aircraft carriers in process of decommissioning right now at Newport News, Virginia.  One of them is the USS Enterprise.  I don't know offhand which is the other one.

Look here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Newport+News,+VA/@36.9810205,-76.440627,642m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x89b07b82704d56d9:0xec7e55ec03c8cb1b).  I believe the one on the south is the USS Enterprise.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RotoSequence on 04/17/2016 09:22 am
I have an idea which should fit the bill!  She's an oldie but a beauty!!
http://www.nimitz.navy.mil/ (http://www.nimitz.navy.mil/)

Of course you were kidding with the Nimitz still in service (your current or former ship I take it), but your post brought to mind the USS Saratoga (CV-60 Supercarrier). Too bad SpaceX didn't grab it before it was sold for scrap for one penny just 2 years ago (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/09/uss-saratoga-destined-for-dismantling-after-one-cent-deal-with-texas-firm.html), after sitting mothballed for 20 years. It went to be dismantled in of all places, Brownsville Texas, the future site of new SpaceX launch facilities.

Edit: The article from 2014 did say the Saratoga was the 2nd of 3 carriers planned for scrap, but they didn't name the 3rd, so it might still be around.
There are two full sized aircraft carriers in process of decommissioning right now at Newport News, Virginia.  One of them is the USS Enterprise.  I don't know offhand which is the other one.

Look here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Newport+News,+VA/@36.9810205,-76.440627,642m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x89b07b82704d56d9:0xec7e55ec03c8cb1b).  I believe the one on the south is the USS Enterprise.

I think the other carrier is the John F Kennedy (CV-67); I don't think SpaceX has a shot at that one.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rds100 on 04/17/2016 09:26 am

What about lifting the stage with a helicopter and transporting it to ground this way? No need to fold the legs.
But they would have to find a way to install that load bearing cap while on the ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cavok on 04/17/2016 10:18 am
no way with a helicopter.
even the biggest (Mi-26) can barely lift 20t. and the stage is more like 25t+ according to what i've picked up here on the boards.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rds100 on 04/17/2016 10:35 am

Well, Mi-26 is more than 30 years old helicopter. And according to wikipedia it has already been tested to lift 56+ tonnes in 1982.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 04/17/2016 05:38 pm

What about lifting the stage with a helicopter and transporting it to ground this way? No need to fold the legs.
But they would have to find a way to install that load bearing cap while on the ASDS.
I'm not understanding the benefit.  They eventually have to fold the legs, they can't integrate or launch with the legs deployed.  And a crane has to be cheaper to operate than a helicopter.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cavok on 04/17/2016 06:13 pm

Well, Mi-26 is more than 30 years old helicopter. And according to wikipedia it has already been tested to lift 56+ tonnes in 1982.

Well, that record is for total mass uplift for a helicopter,  including its own weight/mass and certainly leaves no room for maneuvering! Considering the gearbox itself weighs almost 4t!
And so the design may be 30 years old, it's still going to be the biggest chopper. And probably will remain as it's kind of in an An-225/An-124 niche...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rds100 on 04/17/2016 06:52 pm

What about lifting the stage with a helicopter and transporting it to ground this way? No need to fold the legs.
But they would have to find a way to install that load bearing cap while on the ASDS.
I'm not understanding the benefit.  They eventually have to fold the legs, they can't integrate or launch with the legs deployed.  And a crane has to be cheaper to operate than a helicopter.

The benefit would be not having to wait 3 days for the ASDS to arrive at the predetermined point at sea, then not having to wait 3 days for it to return to shore.

Stage lands on ASDS, a helicopter comes to pick it up and bring it to shore. This happens with the legs unfolded - they will be folded during the processing that would be done on shore. The ASDS stays at sea, waiting for the next launch / stage.


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 04/17/2016 06:59 pm

Well, Mi-26 is more than 30 years old helicopter. And according to wikipedia it has already been tested to lift 56+ tonnes in 1982.

Well, that record is for total mass uplift for a helicopter,  including its own weight/mass and certainly leaves no room for maneuvering! Considering the gearbox itself weighs almost 4t!
And so the design may be 30 years old, it's still going to be the biggest chopper. And probably will remain as it's kind of in an An-225/An-124 niche...
Well, there was also the Mil V-12, which was more or less a 2xMi-6.   Its intended niche was shuttling ICBMs around the Soviet Union - not all that different from what SpaceX needs.   Two prototypes were built but then the Soviets changed their minds about the flying ICBM thing and cancelled the program.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 04/17/2016 07:51 pm
I think the other carrier is the John F Kennedy (CV-67); I don't think SpaceX has a shot at that one.

Are you saying that with it in mind that JFK was the president who got us to the moon? SpaceX would be ideal to inherit the legacy. A new JFK carrier is under construction, but SpaceX would do fine giving the old one a fitting and interesting new name I'm sure.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 04/17/2016 08:36 pm
The Navy retired the JFK because it was the most expensive carrier in the fleet to operate.  That wouldn't be too helpful for SpaceX.


Granted, they wouldn't have to maintain the catapults or the weapons systems, but still...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/17/2016 09:31 pm
Please go back and re read the previous discussion we had about lifting rockets with helicopters.  It's like groundhog day around here sometimes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/17/2016 11:08 pm
I have an idea which should fit the bill!  She's an oldie but a beauty!!
http://www.nimitz.navy.mil/ (http://www.nimitz.navy.mil/)

Of course you were kidding with the Nimitz still in service (your current or former ship I take it), but your post brought to mind the USS Saratoga (CV-60 Supercarrier). Too bad SpaceX didn't grab it before it was sold for scrap for one penny just 2 years ago (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/09/uss-saratoga-destined-for-dismantling-after-one-cent-deal-with-texas-firm.html), after sitting mothballed for 20 years. It went to be dismantled in of all places, Brownsville Texas, the future site of new SpaceX launch facilities.

Edit: The article from 2014 did say the Saratoga was the 2nd of 3 carriers planned for scrap, but they didn't name the 3rd, so it might still be around.
There are two full sized aircraft carriers in process of decommissioning right now at Newport News, Virginia.  One of them is the USS Enterprise.  I don't know offhand which is the other one.

Look here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Newport+News,+VA/@36.9810205,-76.440627,642m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x89b07b82704d56d9:0xec7e55ec03c8cb1b).  I believe the one on the south is the USS Enterprise.

I think the other carrier is the John F Kennedy (CV-67); I don't think SpaceX has a shot at that one.

SpaceX don't have a shot at any of them.  Ignoring the (non-trivial) extremely limited berthing opportunities for a sec, can you imagine what it would cost to berth, crew and operate something like that??  As mentioned countless times before on this thread, there are other classes of vessel far better suited so it simply isn't going to happen.

Move along, nothing to see here..  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/18/2016 02:00 am
How's about we (allow me some slack with the "we" here please) start the tradition of painting F9 outline symbols on the blast wall near the clover leaf for each of the successful returns?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Avron on 04/18/2016 02:08 am
F9dev flew this way

It was launched from a stand

launches need a pad/stand, legs are not an option unless you use Grasshopper type legs . Flyback under own power, is a very log ways off, easier to turn horizontal and ship back on a ship, vs barge
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/18/2016 03:25 am
Moved from the other thread, 'cause it seemed more relevant here:

1. Here's a great shot of an engine-driven pump for draining the ballast tanks - plus an open inspection hatch for the hose.

2. They've added Plimsoll marks to the side of the wings.  That load limit line doesn't leave them very much freeboard, so they must be planning to carry significantly more load/ballast than just an empty stage!

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 04/18/2016 07:53 am
That Plimsoll mark was always there.
This reminds me to model it in my model  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/18/2016 07:59 am
That Plimsoll mark was always there.
This reminds me to model it in my model  :)

I've checked back and you're quite correct.  Not sure how I didn't notice it before - perhaps because it wasn't in that position on the good 'ol JRtI, I didn't think to look for it on the wings.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 04/18/2016 02:42 pm
2. They've added Plimsoll marks to the side of the wings.  That load limit line doesn't leave them very much freeboard, so they must be planning to carry significantly more load/ballast than just an empty stage!

I'm a little surprised by how high they are but I get the impression that they're positioned based entirely on the vessel's geometry and have nothing to do with the intended use of the owner.    So it's more how much they *could* carry than how much they intend to carry.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/19/2016 02:59 am
2. They've added Plimsoll marks to the side of the wings.  That load limit line doesn't leave them very much freeboard, so they must be planning to carry significantly more load/ballast than just an empty stage!

I'm a little surprised by how high they are but I get the impression that they're positioned based entirely on the vessel's geometry and have nothing to do with the intended use of the owner.    So it's more how much they *could* carry than how much they intend to carry.

Right.  Still, if it was me standing at the rail with the ASDS down to her lines, I'm sure I'd think she was about to sink..  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: georgegassaway on 04/19/2016 05:06 am

What about lifting the stage with a helicopter and transporting it to ground this way? No need to fold the legs.
But they would have to find a way to install that load bearing cap while on the ASDS.
I'm not understanding the benefit.  They eventually have to fold the legs, they can't integrate or launch with the legs deployed.  And a crane has to be cheaper to operate than a helicopter.
All SpaceX needs to do is to get Stark Industries to build them THIS so they can fly to an Equatorial launch site, launch the Falcon, then do a mid-air "catch" of the booster on the deck, and fly back.

Who needs "Sea Launch" and Elsbeth III when you can do Air Launch and Air Catch, anywhere,  with "Of Course I Still Have Not Just Read The Instructions"?   

Wee bit of an issue with the theoretical cost, and even more than just a bit of an issue with reality.....   :)

(http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/avengers-helicarrier-640x353.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 04/19/2016 02:12 pm

All SpaceX needs to do is to get Stark Industries to build them THIS so they can fly to an Equatorial launch site, launch the Falcon, then do a mid-air "catch" of the booster on the deck, and fly back.

Who needs "Sea Launch" and Elsbeth III when you can do Air Launch and Air Catch, anywhere,  with "Of Course I Still Have Not Just Read The Instructions"?   

Wee bit of an issue with the theoretical cost, and even more than just a bit of an issue with reality.....   :)


If that could be built, then there is no need for Falcon.  Just use its power system on winged vehicles to go into orbit. In fact, it probably could go into orbit itself.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 04/19/2016 03:24 pm

All SpaceX needs to do is to get Stark Industries to build them THIS so they can fly to an Equatorial launch site, launch the Falcon, then do a mid-air "catch" of the booster on the deck, and fly back.

Who needs "Sea Launch" and Elsbeth III when you can do Air Launch and Air Catch, anywhere,  with "Of Course I Still Have Not Just Read The Instructions"?   

Wee bit of an issue with the theoretical cost, and even more than just a bit of an issue with reality.....   :)


If that could be built, then there is no need for Falcon.  Just use its power system on winged vehicles to go into orbit. In fact, it probably could go into orbit itself.
There are a lot of neat gadgets in the alternate worlds of science fiction.  Some of them actually become true, but that generally only happens when said gadgets don't violate the laws of physics.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 04/20/2016 07:38 pm
There are a lot of neat gadgets in the alternate worlds of science fiction.  Some of them actually become true, but that generally only happens when said gadgets don't violate the laws of physics.
Several dozen Raptors on a launch platform wouldn't violate the laws of physics.
Economics, maybe.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/20/2016 08:37 pm
Well that escalated quickly.

(insert generic admonition to stay on topic here, although with JIM talking science fiction, my heart just isn't in it)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/21/2016 04:10 pm
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

And (this is such a long shot I shouldn't even be writing this) - I don't suppose there's any activity around the Sea Launch ships?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/22/2016 01:03 am


I may have to report myself if you guys (and gals) can't stay more on topic.  Don't make me turn this barge around.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/22/2016 06:52 am
Sorry to ask an apparently off-topic (it has nothing to do with flying aircraft carriers  :P) question, but does anyone happen to know if the two ASDS's, in their current configuration, have anemometers and wind direction indicators?  I've been looking at photos and can't see them, though I foggily recall seeing one in the past.

I'm thinking that knowing wind speed and direction at the ASDS would be important, but can't imagine why they would not have not have an anemometer and wind vanes for that purpose?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/22/2016 07:11 am
Sorry to ask an apparently off-topic (it has nothing to do with flying aircraft carriers  :P) question, but does anyone happen to know if the two ASDS's, in their current configuration, have anemometers and wind direction indicators?  I've been looking at photos and can't see them, though I foggily recall seeing one in the past.

I'm thinking that knowing wind speed and direction at the ASDS would be important, but can't imagine why they would not have not have an anemometer and wind vanes for that purpose?

It's at the top of the tower - port side, aft forward:

(https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=40002.0;attach=1111368;image)

(Image credit te_atl: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40002.msg1520225)


Whew!! We're back on board and I can breathe again..   :)

Edit:  Got the front and back of this thing mixed up again.   :-[
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 04/22/2016 02:22 pm
It's at the top of the tower - port side, aft:

I'm no sailor, but that's not the port side, aft.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 04/22/2016 06:23 pm
I'm thinking that knowing wind speed and direction at the ASDS would be important, but can't imagine why they would not have not have an anemometer and wind vanes for that purpose?

I've wondered about 'perfect' 5s weather forecasts.

A cylinder of 30 or so cheap drones 200m in radius, launched a couple of minutes before landing, or doppler LIDAR/RADAR.
Being able to perfectly predict the weather for 5s as you're measuring a complete shell at the wind velocity seems in principle interesting at least.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 04/22/2016 07:21 pm
I'm thinking that knowing wind speed and direction at the ASDS would be important, but can't imagine why they would not have not have an anemometer and wind vanes for that purpose?

I've wondered about 'perfect' 5s weather forecasts.

A cylinder of 30 or so cheap drones 200m in radius, launched a couple of minutes before landing, or doppler LIDAR/RADAR.
Being able to perfectly predict the weather for 5s as you're measuring a complete shell at the wind velocity seems in principle interesting at least.

Admit it.  You bought 30 cheap drones on an impulse (I can relate!) and now you're looking for an offloader.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris_Pi on 04/22/2016 08:50 pm
I'm thinking that knowing wind speed and direction at the ASDS would be important, but can't imagine why they would not have not have an anemometer and wind vanes for that purpose?

I've wondered about 'perfect' 5s weather forecasts.

A cylinder of 30 or so cheap drones 200m in radius, launched a couple of minutes before landing, or doppler LIDAR/RADAR.
Being able to perfectly predict the weather for 5s as you're measuring a complete shell at the wind velocity seems in principle interesting at least.

Admit it.  You bought 30 cheap drones on an impulse (I can relate!) and now you're looking for an offloader.

Alcohol+Amazon can be a weird combination sometimes. Who knows what shows up a few days later!  :o

That might actually be useful especially if it extended up a thousand feet or two. Doesn't take much to fly out and just hold position for a minute or two, then come back down.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/22/2016 08:59 pm
The thing about well-tuned control loops is: you don't need perfect information about the environment.  It's magic.

In order to justify this, you'd need to show that perfect forecast actually saved fuel or increased landing reliability.  I think any such effects would be far down in the noise: you're competing with the control loop gain, which pushes any benefits down a couple of orders of magnitude.

Simplified hand-wavy example: with a control loop gain of (say) 100 and a very simple proportional control loop, every one unit improvement in your feedback parameter just giving you .01 unit less in your error term, which is what modulates your thrust.  So 1m better position accuracy is only 1cm less error term, and very little fuel saved.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: acsawdey on 04/22/2016 09:23 pm
I'm thinking that knowing wind speed and direction at the ASDS would be important, but can't imagine why they would not have not have an anemometer and wind vanes for that purpose?

I've wondered about 'perfect' 5s weather forecasts.

A cylinder of 30 or so cheap drones 200m in radius, launched a couple of minutes before landing, or doppler LIDAR/RADAR.
Being able to perfectly predict the weather for 5s as you're measuring a complete shell at the wind velocity seems in principle interesting at least.

Well, if you put 30 or more drones in a circle and they have cameras, that opens the way to:

Bullet-time Falcon 9 (http://petapixel.com/2012/12/24/freezing-time-and-space-using-a-bullet-time-rig-of-100-digital-cameras/)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/22/2016 10:01 pm
Sorry to ask an apparently off-topic (it has nothing to do with flying aircraft carriers  :P) question, but does anyone happen to know if the two ASDS's, in their current configuration, have anemometers and wind direction indicators?  I've been looking at photos and can't see them, though I foggily recall seeing one in the past.

I'm thinking that knowing wind speed and direction at the ASDS would be important, but can't imagine why they would not have not have an anemometer and wind vanes for that purpose?

It's at the top of the tower - port side, aft:

(https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=40002.0;attach=1111368;image)

(Image credit te_atl: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40002.msg1520225)


Whew!! We're back on board and I can breathe again..   :)

Thank you!

That rohn tower does indeed have a combined anemometer/direction indicator, and it's ultrasonic.

Looks very similar to this one.
http://www.kintech-engineering.com/media/uploads/image/178.jpg
(I'm using a link rather than attaching the pic, because it may well be copyrighted due to being a commercial product and I am guessing this is NSF's preferred method in that case?).

Ultrasonic anemometers aren't anywhere near as cheap as the old cups-on-a-spindle style, but they are more suitable for the salt air environment (no moving parts). Something like this would run around $2000 retail.

I'm a bit confused as to the placement though; there's nothing similar on the port forward rhon tower, so it looks like the only one is the one you found, on the starboard aft tower. I'd have thought that placing it forward rather than aft would be preferred for accuracy (drag effects of the forward structures). Edit: it actually is on the bow, I goofed.

I'd also be willing to bet that somewhere aboard is an accelerometer/tiltmeter, to give them data on the exact attitude and motion of the ASDS at the moment of touchdown (for later analysis, not realtime use).  Might also be useful to know before launch if conditions are marginal (assuming they'd delay a launch for a landing issue). 

Edit: fixed my mistaking the bow for the stern. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/22/2016 11:41 pm
Accelerometer/tilt meter is probably part of the position-hold package already.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CuddlyRocket on 04/23/2016 02:18 am
It's at the top of the tower - port side, aft:

I'm no sailor, but that's not the port side, aft.

Yep, if that tower is at the stern, it's on the starboard side! (Alternatively, it's on the port bow.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/23/2016 03:30 am
It's at the top of the tower - port side, aft:

I'm no sailor, but that's not the port side, aft.

Yep, if that tower is at the stern, it's on the starboard side! (Alternatively, it's on the port bow.)

I'm afraid I've added to the confusion here. That (in the photo CameronD included) is definitely the bow, so the tower is on the port bow. I'll go edit my post. Thanks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 04/23/2016 04:33 am
To all the regular people out there:

Port is Left  ("the ship just left port")
Bow is front (you bow forward, right?)

On ASDS, the side with one row of containers and two walls (blast wall and wave wall) is the front.


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 04/23/2016 06:00 am
I'm thinking that knowing wind speed and direction at the ASDS would be important, but can't imagine why they would not have not have an anemometer and wind vanes for that purpose?

I've wondered about 'perfect' 5s weather forecasts.

A cylinder of 30 or so cheap drones 200m in radius, launched a couple of minutes before landing, or doppler LIDAR/RADAR.
Being able to perfectly predict the weather for 5s as you're measuring a complete shell at the wind velocity seems in principle interesting at least.

Well, if you put 30 or more drones in a circle and they have cameras, that opens the way to:

Bullet-time Falcon 9 (http://petapixel.com/2012/12/24/freezing-time-and-space-using-a-bullet-time-rig-of-100-digital-cameras/)

The landing sequence is such a good fit for this.  It would be stunning.  no need for drones though.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sanman on 04/23/2016 09:32 am

All SpaceX needs to do is to get Stark Industries to build them THIS so they can fly to an Equatorial launch site, launch the Falcon, then do a mid-air "catch" of the booster on the deck, and fly back.

Who needs "Sea Launch" and Elsbeth III when you can do Air Launch and Air Catch, anywhere,  with "Of Course I Still Have Not Just Read The Instructions"?   

Wee bit of an issue with the theoretical cost, and even more than just a bit of an issue with reality.....   :)


Sounds like you really want...

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39944.0

A large floating airship could be beneficial. Not only could the airship act as a landing pad, but it could later even act as a launch pad, perhaps allowing rockets to be launched from upto 20 miles above sea level.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 04/23/2016 09:40 am

All SpaceX needs to do is to get Stark Industries to build them THIS so they can fly to an Equatorial launch site, launch the Falcon, then do a mid-air "catch" of the booster on the deck, and fly back.

Who needs "Sea Launch" and Elsbeth III when you can do Air Launch and Air Catch, anywhere,  with "Of Course I Still Have Not Just Read The Instructions"?   

Wee bit of an issue with the theoretical cost, and even more than just a bit of an issue with reality.....   :)


Sounds like you really want...

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39944.0

A large floating airship could be beneficial. Not only could the airship act as a landing pad, but it could later even act as a launch pad, perhaps allowing rockets to be launched from upto 20 miles above sea level.

in addition, here are some concepts developed from Phillip Bono: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/26415430231/in/album-72157666706198030/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/26481550175/in/album-72157666706198030/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/26389227292/in/album-72157666706198030/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/23/2016 12:55 pm
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

Members of the ASDS nation should be scanning the shores around Amelia and Morgan City La. for the possible construction of additional ASDS(s) now that there is proof that the concept works.  Where are the Marmacs?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/23/2016 01:57 pm
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

Members of the ASDS nation should be scanning the shores around Amelia and Morgan City La. for the possible construction of additional ASDS(s) now that there is proof that the concept works.  Where are the Marmacs?

Why? They have one for each launch site, and Boca Chica won't be ready for years.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 04/23/2016 01:59 pm
The thing about well-tuned control loops is: you don't need perfect information about the environment.  It's magic

"The thing about well-tuned control loops with adequate control authority".

Over the last several seconds, many things get lots harder, probably to the point that there is not as much control authority as you'd like.
This is for several reasons:
Speed is dropping off sharply, meaning that body 'lift' and grid fins become less useful.
The body has to be approximately vertical as it hits the deck.

At the last second or two, there isn't enough time to counteract unexpected gusts fully, all you can do is to hit vertically.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/23/2016 02:31 pm
The thing about well-tuned control loops is: you don't need perfect information about the environment.  It's magic

"The thing about well-tuned control loops with adequate control authority".

Over the last several seconds, many things get lots harder, probably to the point that there is not as much control authority as you'd like.
This is for several reasons:
Speed is dropping off sharply, meaning that body 'lift' and grid fins become less useful.
The body has to be approximately vertical as it hits the deck.

At the last second or two, there isn't enough time to counteract unexpected gusts fully, all you can do is to hit vertically.
Naw, I don't believe it.  In the last seconds they have a Merlin firing at half thrust and a near-empty stage.  If anything there too much control authority.

Grid fins and body lift are for high altitude aiming.  If you said they needed to have better environment modeling of high altitude winds, I'd be on board.  At that stage of flight small improvements could indeed be compounded into significant savings.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/23/2016 02:35 pm
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

Members of the ASDS nation should be scanning the shores around Amelia and Morgan City La. for the possible construction of additional ASDS(s) now that there is proof that the concept works.  Where are the Marmacs?

Why? They have one for each launch site, and Boca Chica won't be ready for years.
I think the thinking is that they will eventually need two more ASDSes for downrange recovery of Falcon Heavy side cores and/or another ASDS for missions at a fast cadence without enough time for a single ASDS to return to port and redeploy.

I don't buy it, necessarily (at least not in the near term).  But it would be good to have antennae in the air just in case MARMAC 300 (say) disappears suddenly after finishing its wind turbine job.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/23/2016 03:03 pm
Quote
I don't buy it, necessarily.  But it would be good to have antennae in the air just in case MARMAC 300 (say) disappears suddenly after finishing its wind turbine job.

Will check with my source and see if he's heard anything.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/23/2016 03:38 pm
The thing about well-tuned control loops is: you don't need perfect information about the environment.  It's magic

"The thing about well-tuned control loops with adequate control authority".

Over the last several seconds, many things get lots harder, probably to the point that there is not as much control authority as you'd like.
This is for several reasons:
Speed is dropping off sharply, meaning that body 'lift' and grid fins become less useful.
The body has to be approximately vertical as it hits the deck.

At the last second or two, there isn't enough time to counteract unexpected gusts fully, all you can do is to hit vertically.

This quote from Jeff Bezos about how their autpoilot works is relevant:

Quote
One of the software improvements related to the landing approach.

“Rather than the vehicle translating to land at the exact center of the pad, it now initially targets the center, but then sets down at a position of convenience on the pad, prioritizing vehicle attitude ahead of precise lateral positioning,” added Mr. Bezos.

"It’s like a pilot lining up a plane with the centerline of the runway. If the plane is a few feet off center as you get close, you don’t swerve at the last minute to ensure hitting the exact mid-point. You just land a few feet left or right of the centerline.


https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2016/01/blue-origin-successful-reuse-test-new-shepard/

Which is exactly what we saw on the CRS-8 landing. In the last few seconds the stage righted itself and did not try to correct for being a few meters off target.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 04/23/2016 06:27 pm
Well I see this thread took a hard turn into the weeds...   ???

On topic... a question or two...  ;)
They get OCISLY cleaned up and ready to go catch another stage?
I have not seen any pics of her since they left the I-beams tack welded to the deck...

When will EIII be headed out again with OCISLY in tow to catch the next one?
I see the dates slipped a bit... but this is coming up sooner then later...

Next launch in 10 days or so by my count...
SO... Headed out in less then a week... going where?... how far?...  :-\
 :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/25/2016 11:47 am
Quote
SO... Headed out in less then a week... going where?... how far?... 

This appears to be the FCC transmitter permit for the ships on the JCSAT-14 mission. The permits are a bit tricky to decipher because they don't specify the mission, only a 6-month range of operations dates. But the permit previous to this one appeared to be for the CRS-8 ASDS location. So I think this one is for JCSAT-14. The ASDS location appear to be consistent with a low launch azimuth for GTO.

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=69736&RequestTimeout=1000

ASDS coordinates:

28 11 30 N
73 50 15 W

(Degrees-minutes-seconds)

That is 409 statute miles from the launch site, and within a few miles of the SES-9 location. So this mission will be almost identical to the SES-9 recovery profile.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/25/2016 01:14 pm
Whoo-hoo, another exciting recovery then!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 04/25/2016 01:19 pm
That is 409 statute miles from the launch site, and within a few miles of the SES-9 location. So this mission will be almost identical to the SES-9 recovery profile.
Then shouldn't the ASDS be heading out soon?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/25/2016 01:29 pm
That is 409 statute miles from the launch site, and within a few miles of the SES-9 location. So this mission will be almost identical to the SES-9 recovery profile.
Then shouldn't the ASDS be heading out soon?

For SES-9 they left almost exactly 5 days before the launch window opened. So if the 3 May launch date holds, OCISLY would probably leave this Thursday, 4/28.

Update: now NET 4 May, so Friday departure at earliest...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/25/2016 01:59 pm
Whoo-hoo, another exciting recovery then!
That doesn't follow. It's possible that they're going to do a ballistic reentry but not use the super max gonzo 3 engine landing option...  see this speculation on performance margins.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33778.msg1516813#msg1516813

JCSat isn't as heavy and they aren't trying to do quite as aggressive of a GTO orbit (is the thinking)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/25/2016 02:22 pm
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

Members of the ASDS nation should be scanning the shores around Amelia and Morgan City La. for the possible construction of additional ASDS(s) now that there is proof that the concept works.  Where are the Marmacs?

My source at McDonough Marine says all their big barges are rented out and he hasn't heard or seen anything locally to suggest SpaceX is expanding their ASDS fleet. If they did, it would have to be with a different company, elsewhere.

PS...the original ASDS, Marmac 300, is done with wind farm construction duty and is being repaired/refit for its next job.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/25/2016 04:29 pm
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

Members of the ASDS nation should be scanning the shores around Amelia and Morgan City La. for the possible construction of additional ASDS(s) now that there is proof that the concept works.  Where are the Marmacs?

My source at McDonough Marine says all their big barges are rented out and he hasn't heard or seen anything locally to suggest SpaceX is expanding their ASDS fleet. If they did, it would have to be with a different company, elsewhere.

PS...the original ASDS, Marmac 300, is done with wind farm construction duty and is being repaired/refit for its next job.

Interesting... What is the lead time for new construction of this class of barge? And if new construction were commissioned, would it be this class or would SpaceX start applying learnings (integrated shielding instead of tacked on.. special thruster housings, etc... there are dozens of things one COULD do...)? It's possible it's too early to start customizing much, so by going for another Marmac 300 class, the barge could be returned to the lessor more easily...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CraigLieb on 04/25/2016 04:32 pm
Landing poll available for JCSat-14
(or given this forum... the anti-ASDS missile system if you prefer...)

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40146.0
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: starhawk92 on 04/25/2016 05:18 pm
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

Members of the ASDS nation should be scanning the shores around Amelia and Morgan City La. for the possible construction of additional ASDS(s) now that there is proof that the concept works.  Where are the Marmacs?

Why? They have one for each launch site, and Boca Chica won't be ready for years.
I think the thinking is that they will eventually need two more ASDSes for downrange recovery of Falcon Heavy side cores and/or another ASDS for missions at a fast cadence without enough time for a single ASDS to return to port and redeploy.

I don't buy it, necessarily (at least not in the near term).  But it would be good to have antennae in the air just in case MARMAC 300 (say) disappears suddenly after finishing its wind turbine job.

"We're gonna need a bigger boat . . . . . "
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/25/2016 08:01 pm
Whoo-hoo, another exciting recovery then!
That doesn't follow. It's possible that they're going to do a ballistic reentry but not use the super max gonzo 3 engine landing option... 
By "exciting" I mean, "not yet successful".  ASDS landing after GTO mission has not yet been successfully demonstrated.


PS...the original ASDS, Marmac 300, is done with wind farm construction duty and is being repaired/refit for its next job.

And does its next job require adding wings?

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/25/2016 08:43 pm


PS...the original ASDS, Marmac 300, is done with wind farm construction duty and is being repaired/refit for its next job.

And does its next job require adding wings?

No, it just got an ABS inspection and is being repaired after a dockside "hit and run" mishap. But no wings in its future.  :(
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/25/2016 08:49 pm
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

Members of the ASDS nation should be scanning the shores around Amelia and Morgan City La. for the possible construction of additional ASDS(s) now that there is proof that the concept works.  Where are the Marmacs?

My source at McDonough Marine says all their big barges are rented out and he hasn't heard or seen anything locally to suggest SpaceX is expanding their ASDS fleet. If they did, it would have to be with a different company, elsewhere.

PS...the original ASDS, Marmac 300, is done with wind farm construction duty and is being repaired/refit for its next job.

Interesting... What is the lead time for new construction of this class of barge? And if new construction were commissioned, would it be this class or would SpaceX start applying learnings (integrated shielding instead of tacked on.. special thruster housings, etc... there are dozens of things one COULD do...)? It's possible it's too early to start customizing much, so by going for another Marmac 300 class, the barge could be returned to the lessor more easily...

Lead time for modifying an existing 300' x 100' barge would be 5-7 months according to my source. A new purpose-built barge could be around 12 months or more, depending on their specs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 04/25/2016 09:33 pm
I wonder if SpaceX will at some point try and juggle their schedule to alternate ASDS and RTLS flights.  If we imagine the once every two week cadence they hope to hit (at least some of the time) later this year, back-to-back ASDS recoveries might be impossible, even with no damage to the drone ship.  I guess you can also start adding JRTI to the mix as VAFB flights start coming on-line later in the year.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/25/2016 11:42 pm
Thank you!

That rohn tower does indeed have a combined anemometer/direction indicator, and it's ultrasonic.
.......
I'd also be willing to bet that somewhere aboard is an accelerometer/tiltmeter, to give them data on the exact attitude and motion of the ASDS at the moment of touchdown (for later analysis, not realtime use).  Might also be useful to know before launch if conditions are marginal (assuming they'd delay a launch for a landing issue). 

The high-res photos aren't quite high-res enough to work out exactly what they're using, but for completeness it is probably what is technically known as a "marine weather station", similar to this one:

(http://www.fondriest.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/airmar_diagram.jpg)

These units use on-board GPS and gyros to compensate for movement of the platform giving precise true wind speed and direction - something I presume they'd need to know in the final seconds before touchdown - and the gyro outputs can be useful for motion recording also.  They're extraordinarily accurate.. to tenths of a knot!


PS:  Apologies for the viewing angle mix-up.  I've edited my original post accordingly.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/26/2016 12:32 am
My source at McDonough Marine says all their big barges are rented out and he hasn't heard or seen anything locally to suggest SpaceX is expanding their ASDS fleet. If they did, it would have to be with a different company, elsewhere.

PS...the original ASDS, Marmac 300, is done with wind farm construction duty and is being repaired/refit for its next job.

Interestingly, the USCG never wiped their "Research Vessel" listing for MARMAC 300 - their Certificate of Documentation is valid to April 2017.  I'm not saying that implies anything.. only that, from a pure paperwork stand-point, it wouldn't be difficult to apply for this classification to be reinstated, should they choose to do so.

Personally, I can't see them increasing the SpaceX Navy for some time yet - the cost of barge upgrades, maintenance, berthing, man-power and tug support just does not seem to be warranted at this point.


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 04/26/2016 12:47 am

Personally, I can't see them increasing the SpaceX Navy for some time yet - the cost of barge upgrades, maintenance, berthing, man-power and tug support just does not seem to be warranted at this point.


Agreed. Once they reach a sustainable cadence, perhaps. But look at JCSAT-14 - the anticipated launch date has slipped approximately a week just since the CRS-8 flight. Until they need to sortie more than once every three - four weeks, there's no need for another barge, absent any SES-9 style rocket-punching through the deckplates.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/26/2016 03:03 am
I agree with those above who say they don't see the ASDS fleet increasing soon.

My take is it's way too soon; they're going to want to learn operational lessons, and also wait until they actually need more ASDS (that way, any new ones can be designed with lessons learned in mind).

Is one ASDS enough for the Cape? I think it is, even for FH - it looks like the early FH flights will have the side cores doing RTLS, leaving only the center core for ASDS to worry about.  As for F9 launches, the ASDS operational cadence could be increased in case of need (unless there are reasons why not?). The next flight, for example, has the ASDS approx 400 miles  offshore - further than usual. But, let's assume that's average. That's 69 hours one way from Canaveral at 5 knots. Let's say 12 hours on station, then 69 hours back.  150 hours round trip - 6.25 days. Is it reasonable to say an operational ASDS, after plenty of practice, could be unloaded and prepped for another mission in 3/4 of a day? If so, you've got an ASDS capability to support launches a week apart. If for some reason (say, launch dates 5 days apart) you need to do better on occasion, make sure of of them (the first one) has enough margin for a partial boostback burn to cut the distance offshore, or, temporarily hire a larger, faster tug that could handle the ASDS at, say, 8 knots, cutting outbound transit time down 43 hours.

IMHO, it'll be a long time before launch cadence (even if we assume no RTLS, ever) exceeds the capacity of one ASDS - and SpaceX has a track record of not completing new things before they are needed - why make a capital expenditure before it's needed?   

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/26/2016 03:19 am
Quote
?...and SpaceX has a track record of not completing new things before they are needed - why make a capital expenditure before it's needed?   

Yes, and they're probably feeling a bit burned by JRtI sitting out there out West doing nothing for what...almost a year now?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: miscme on 04/26/2016 03:33 am
Yes, and they're probably feeling a bit burned by JRtI sitting out there out West doing nothing for what...almost a year now?

I recall JRtI trying to catch the Jason-3 booster just 3 months ago.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/26/2016 03:44 am
Yes, and they're probably feeling a bit burned by JRtI sitting out there out West doing nothing for what...almost a year now?

I recall JRtI trying to catch the Jason-3 booster just 3 months ago.

OK, one attempt in a year. "Almost" nothing.

Point remains, the asset has been, shall we say, extremely underutilized.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: The Amazing Catstronaut on 04/26/2016 04:41 am
Whoo-hoo, another exciting recovery then!
That doesn't follow. It's possible that they're going to do a ballistic reentry but not use the super max gonzo 3 engine landing option...

Lar, can I report you if your comment made me spill my hard-earned five AM hot chocolate on my crotch?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: timverhoeven on 04/26/2016 11:39 am
Yes, and they're probably feeling a bit burned by JRtI sitting out there out West doing nothing for what...almost a year now?

I recall JRtI trying to catch the Jason-3 booster just 3 months ago.

OK, one attempt in a year. "Almost" nothing.

Point remains, the asset has been, shall we say, extremely underutilized.

Accorinding to the manifest on http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40049.msg1523417#msg1523417 there are 3 flights from the West coast planned for the remainder of this year. And the 6 months downtime because of CRS-7 didn't help of course.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 04/26/2016 01:42 pm
Go Quest has moved near OCISLY.
http://portcanaveralwebcam.com/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 04/26/2016 02:48 pm
Hypothetically, if launch cadence ramps up like the manifest says it might, could we get into a position where there is another GTO (or even FH) launch approaching and the drone ship is still carrying a stage back from the last launch attempt?

To put it more bluntly, what do we think is the fastest launch cadence we could see for launches which cannot use an RTLS trajectory for stage recovery?  Is three weeks between GTO launches too little time, or plenty?  Is two weeks pushing it too much?  Is a single week between GTO launches even do-able without designating the second GTO launch in a row as expendable, simply because the ASDS isn't ready to sail yet?

I'm thinking that SpaceX won't delay a launch just because the ASDS is still making its way back to Port Canaveral.  So, at what launch cadence will SpaceX require a second ASDS to be available on the ETR?  (Obviously, the WTR is not so much of an issue, as the launch cadence from Vandenberg isn't projected ot be nearly as busy as that from the Cape.)

Since moving JRtI from California to Florida would seem to require removing its wings before it will fit through the Panama Canal, I'm assuming in the question above that there is no operational flexibility available by using one of the current fleet of two as a "swing barge," able to pop over to the ETR when the cadence demands and pop back over to the WTR when it's needed.  In other words, I'm assuming that, for any kind of short-term planning purposes, an ASDS asset on one coast is unavailable for use on the other coast.  Unless Musk fits out one of them with Merlins, as he joked a couple of years ago...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/26/2016 03:18 pm
Doug, your question was answered a few posts above yours.  And yes, our observations confirmed that Panama canal transit is a huge time (and money) sink in addition to the wing mods required; I think we can safely assume JRtI will not taste the Atlantic again.

Others: I agree with the general sentiment "too soon to massively increase ASDS fleet".  I wouldnt be too surprised to see *one* more ASDS on the east coast in the next, say, one to three years.  I suspect three-ASDS landings for FH will be pushing the limits of center core reentry speed and downrange distance for some time yet, so (in my possibly-crazy opinion) after the "easy" all-RTLS and side-RTLS/center-ASDS missions the next increment of performance would be side-ASDS/center-expendable.  That would only require a single new ASDS, and I think there are two MARMAC class barges still unaccounted for?  That extra ASDS could cover Boca Chica and provide some operational flexibility---the two/three year time frame is about when I'd expect the launch cadence to have come up and Boca Chica getting near completion.  As calculated above, a single ASDS is good for approximately weekly flights, and I don't see SpaceX achieving that (or anything other than RTLS of FH side cores) in less than a year.

(On the other hand, I wonder if they'll have dialed in landing accuracy enough in the two-ish year time frame that they feel comfortable landing both side cores on a single barge?  There is space along the long axis.  But if so that also enables them to try all-ASDS missions with a two-barge fleet, so maybe that's another reason the eventual Atlantic fleet size could grow to two?)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 04/26/2016 03:33 pm
what do we think is the fastest launch cadence we could see for launches which cannot use an RTLS trajectory for stage recovery?

As far as we have seen, assuming that ASDS does not sustain damage on landing (as seems to have happened last time), there is not much needed for the ASDS to be ready to sail again.

Coming back to shore did take less than a week, and as it was the first ASDS landing, we can assume that as was the case for port operations, they may have deliberately taken their time with it, in order to be sure they didn't make any mistakes.
Unloading operations did take no more than a few hours, once they arrived to port.
Preparing the ship to be ready to sail must be what, 1 or 2 days at most, I'd say.
Going from port to the landing zone is usually about 4 days.

In short, ASDS should be able to be recycled in about 10 days, maybe a bit more.
Going down to 7 days may be asking too much, since it would require the ASDS to go faster on the return trip than to go there, and would leave no margin. So it seems that this is definitely a no go for 7 days recycle.

So I'd say they will need a second ASDS on this coast at about the time when there will be an ASDS landing required once every two weeks. Two should be enough to be good for an ASDS landing once every week, maybe a bit less if they rush it. So it will be a long time before they need more than two (if ever).
Then, let's not forget that they can always decide to go expandable once in a while. I know it's tempting to believe that from now on, they will catch every single first stage they launch, and in the long run, that may be the aim, but until they can "safely" reuse a first stage, and until they seriously ramp up the storage capability, trying to catch every first stage they launch may cause them some serious logistics headaches, that may be solved by going expandable sometimes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/26/2016 03:35 pm
Then, let's not forget that they can always decide to go expandable once in a while. I know it's tempting to believe that from now on, they will catch every single first stage they launch, and in the long run, that may be the aim, but until they can "safely" reuse a first stage, and until they seriously ramp up the storage capability, trying to catch every first stage they launch may cause them some serious logistics headaches, that may be solved by going expandable sometimes.

Oh what exciting times we live in... "guys... splash this next one, we have too many first stages in the barn right now..."
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 04/26/2016 05:28 pm
Spotted some workers on OCISLY. Possibly begining preperations for next launch.
http://portcanaveralwebcam.com/

Since we have this handy webcam, might be time to create a stand alone update/discussion thread for OCISLY.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 04/26/2016 05:29 pm
Oh what exciting times we live in... "guys... splash this next one, we have too many first stages in the barn right now..."

I still don't see that you'd really want to splash it on purpose. Why not try a really aggressive landing attempt with the first of the pair; something you expect to fail (like SES-9). If you pull it off then maybe you splash the second, but if you fail as expected then you've at least learned something from the lost S1. Sure you might damage the ASDS, but you could stage some steel and welders on Go _____ for on-site repair.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/26/2016 05:37 pm
Alternatively (and this is really crazy) land one in one corner of the ASDS and the other one in the opposite corner.

That's such a silly idea I should self report...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/26/2016 05:50 pm
Wow, lots of good discussion here.  Hopefully our discussion on the need for more ASDSs is being done on a time available basis and doesn't cut into our staying on top of the real time ASDS events that Scylla is pointing out. 

I agree its not likely that the ASDS fleet is going to grow soon, particularly in light of abaddon's suggestion to juggle the launch schedule to have RTLS and ASDS alternate, its just that we're all here on this ASDS thread and it would be good for us to be ahead of whatever may be happening if it does so keep your eyes open.  As for Cameron's comment that the ASDS fleet is expensive I respond yes, but a) Part of that expense is Go Quest & Searcher, Port facility, crane, equipment rental, personnel that are not utilized much of the time with one ASDS, those expenses wouldn't increase appreciably with a 2nd ASDS, b) Having to juggle the launch schedule if a second ASDS becomes useful isn't an inexpensive option c) If the current ASDS becomes damaged which I've seen happen 4 times now out of ?6? you'd want another ASDS c) (somewhat indirictly related) The scale of expenses run up by the SpaceX navy is light compared to the cost of one lost stage.

Kabloona, good work in keeping in touch with your inside contact.

Hmm, now with a bit of time since writing above I am leaning a bit in favor of thinking a second east coast ASDS may be coming sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/26/2016 06:04 pm
Has anyone plotted the location of all ASDS landing attempts so far? Do we have a pattern developing? (perhaps factor out some of the early ones that had high margins and were almost standins for RTLS) My thinking here is that even with two ASDSii[1], you don't need a full complement of support ships IF two successive landings are fairly closeish together... you have a fast tug shoot out bringing an empty ASDS, and turning around to tow one ASDS back with stage, while the flotilla and empty ASDS decamp to the next location. Sucks to be the guys on board the flotilla as they don't get as much shore leave but they can handle it...

(this is a cheaper (temporary??) variant of the "purpose built fast ship with crane to return stages to land leaving the ASDS at sea" idea)

1 - obviously the plural of ASDS is ASDSii ...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 04/26/2016 06:10 pm
Would you really need a full up 2nd ASDS and host of associated equipment? Or could you possibly use an unmodified crane barge?
Lift the landed stage off the ASDS with the crane barge while on station. Crane barge with possibly it's own tug (or not depending on timing) would lift the S1 off the ASDS and return separately while the ASDS awaited the next landing, moving if necessary.

Edit: Ninja'd by the Mod.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/26/2016 06:19 pm
I've got this silly picture running through my head that I need to vent out.

One way to land multiple multiple cores on a barge without having to return would be to cover the deck with conveyor belt material.  Conceptually Rexnord tabletop chain.  ...Which would be in constant motion from fore to aft.  The stages would touch down in the center or forward center part of the deck and be conveyed rearward by the conveyor action until coming to a stop against a modified higher blast wall at the rear.  Perhaps with some side guides as well.  You could probably get 50 or so of them to stack up back there before the ASDS would need to come in to be unloaded, assuming the legs nested well.

Check 1:43 of this video for the general concept - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwPJHVvvcZk
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 04/26/2016 06:20 pm
How about refuel on barge and hop? Maybe in a year?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 04/26/2016 06:25 pm
The stages would touch down in the center or forward center part of the deck and be conveyed rearward by the conveyor action until coming to a stop against a modified higher blast wall at the rear.  Perhaps with some side guides as well.  You could probably get 50 or so of them to stack up back there before the ASDS would need to come in to be unloaded, assuming the legs nested well.

Check 1:43 of this video for the general concept

What I don't understand is... why would you skip the rinse stage at 0:50?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CT Space Guy on 04/26/2016 06:27 pm
Maybe SpaceX could buy a couple of these?

https://www.tuwien.ac.at/en/news/news_detail/article/10060/ (https://www.tuwien.ac.at/en/news/news_detail/article/10060/)

http://www.heliofloat.com/ (http://www.heliofloat.com/)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/26/2016 06:29 pm
Would you really need a full up 2nd ASDS and host of associated equipment? Or could you possibly use an unmodified crane barge?
Lift the landed stage off the ASDS with the crane barge while on station. Crane barge with possibly it's own tug (or not depending on timing) would lift the S1 off the ASDS and return separately while the ASDS awaited the next landing, moving if necessary.

Edit: Ninja'd by the Mod.
Who me? No, your idea is different... I think more expensive, barge mounted cranes are presumably more expensive than  the whole rest of the ASDS but i could be wrong.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 04/26/2016 06:31 pm
I've got this silly picture running through my head that I need to vent out.

One way to land multiple multiple cores on a barge without having to return would be to cover the deck with conveyor belt material.  Conceptually Rexnord tabletop chain.  ...Which would be in constant motion from fore to aft.  The stages would touch down in the center or forward center part of the deck and be conveyed rearward by the conveyor action until coming to a stop against a modified higher blast wall at the rear.  Perhaps with some side guides as well.  You could probably get 50 or so of them to stack up back there before the ASDS would need to come in to be unloaded, assuming the legs nested well.

That's $2 billion worth of rockets sitting out on a barge in the Atlantic for many weeks...  :o
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/26/2016 06:36 pm
That canning line thing was amusing but let's stick to halfway realistic ideas for how to handle increased cadence.... Or the thread might be canned.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 04/26/2016 06:38 pm
Would you really need a full up 2nd ASDS and host of associated equipment? Or could you possibly use an unmodified crane barge?
Lift the landed stage off the ASDS with the crane barge while on station. Crane barge with possibly it's own tug (or not depending on timing) would lift the S1 off the ASDS and return separately while the ASDS awaited the next landing, moving if necessary.

Edit: Ninja'd by the Mod.
Who me? No, your idea is different... I think more expensive, barge mounted cranes are presumably more expensive than  the whole rest of the ASDS but i could be wrong.

I'm thinking standard COTS stuff. 14 day rental or whatever it needs. No long term lease, no wing mods, no thrustmasters, no mm precision automated positioning, etc. Rent it, go pick up the stage, fill the gas tank, and return it. Hertz/Avis style. I don't see how it would be more expensive than modifying and maintaining a 2nd ASDS. (All uninformed opinion, I could easily be wrong.) Something like...
https://www.dnlsalvage.com/services/crane-barges/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Arb on 04/26/2016 07:44 pm
Occasional sailor here.

There's a huge difference between craning from ship to ship in the calm sheltered waters of a harbour and out in the open ocean where there are significant waves almost all the time. Consider what happens if a hoisted first stage starts to pendulum...

Not saying it couldn't be done (the USN have researched crane designs that counteract wave motion for according to Google) but not going to be easy or cheap, IMO.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/26/2016 08:39 pm
Thank you!

That rohn tower does indeed have a combined anemometer/direction indicator, and it's ultrasonic.
.......
I'd also be willing to bet that somewhere aboard is an accelerometer/tiltmeter, to give them data on the exact attitude and motion of the ASDS at the moment of touchdown (for later analysis, not realtime use).  Might also be useful to know before launch if conditions are marginal (assuming they'd delay a launch for a landing issue). 

The high-res photos aren't quite high-res enough to work out exactly what they're using, but for completeness it is probably what is technically known as a "marine weather station", similar to this one:

(http://www.fondriest.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/airmar_diagram.jpg)

These units use on-board GPS and gyros to compensate for movement of the platform giving precise true wind speed and direction - something I presume they'd need to know in the final seconds before touchdown - and the gyro outputs can be useful for motion recording also.  They're extraordinarily accurate.. to tenths of a knot!


PS:  Apologies for the viewing angle mix-up.  I've edited my original post accordingly.

I think you've hit the nail on the head; that sort of data station would provide a lot that they need.

I don't see any need to know the precise wind speed in the final moments before touchdown except for after-the-fact analysis (which IMHO they would need) because there's no way to make use of the data in real time.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 04/26/2016 09:01 pm
Not saying it couldn't be done (the USN have researched crane designs that counteract wave motion for according to Google) but not going to be easy or cheap, IMO.
Motion-compensating technology is apparently deployed in production in the North Sea for the offshore energy industry (oil/gas/wind).

Here's video of a motion-compensated crane in operation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggIDaBMbhUE&t=37m10s

(see 37 minutes 10 seconds in; I attempted to link directly there but the embed is losing the time offset somehow).

They also have a motion-compensated walkway allowing workers to "walk to work" across the North Sea.   This video shows it compensating for ship-to-fixed-platform motion but other videos show it doing ship-to-ship adjustments.

I agree that it's not going to be cheap, but it might be cheaper than maintaining a large fleet of ASDS's and continuously towing them back & forth between the port and the landing zones.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: LastStarFighter on 04/26/2016 09:16 pm
That canning line thing was amusing but let's stick to halfway realistic ideas for how to handle increased cadence.... Or the thread might be canned.

My vote (if they need more east coast help) would be to bring JRtI back from the west coast once VAFB RTLS is approved. I don't see anything on the manifest for the West Coast that would really require a barge landing. Maybe I'm over looking some larger payload missions though.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/26/2016 09:19 pm
That's amazing. However their target is a fixed platform. Transferring a stage from one barge to another would require a different sort of compensation...

When hooking the stage, the crane has to move in concert with the tip of the stage, but when setting the stage down the crane has to avoid penduluming but also get the stage to actually set down when the deck isn't moving under it a lot. Doable but a fun motion control problem to program.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: acsawdey on 04/26/2016 10:03 pm
When hooking the stage, the crane has to move in concert with the tip of the stage, but when setting the stage down the crane has to avoid penduluming but also get the stage to actually set down when the deck isn't moving under it a lot. Doable but a fun motion control problem to program.

A fun motion control problem indeed -- reminds me of how a double-pendulum is a classic chaotic physical system. If you squint at it right, you could convince yourself a stage hanging from a crane boom would behave this way too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 04/26/2016 10:49 pm
That's amazing. However their target is a fixed platform.

Not always!  Ship-to-ship motion compensation is demonstrated here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVonK9utYSc

(skip ahead to 3:00 or so).   They do mention "constant force" so they're likely using force-feedback control; they'd clearly need to integrate other sensors to do more general ship-to-ship motion compensation. 

Quote
When hooking the stage, the crane has to move in concert with the tip of the stage, but when setting the stage down the crane has to avoid penduluming but also get the stage to actually set down when the deck isn't moving under it a lot. Doable but a fun motion control problem to program.
No doubt!  Though if deck motion on the destination was a problem they could put the stage stand onto another motion-compensated platform.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 04/26/2016 11:02 pm
That's amazing. However their target is a fixed platform. Transferring a stage from one barge to another would require a different sort of compensation...

When hooking the stage, the crane has to move in concert with the tip of the stage, but when setting the stage down the crane has to avoid penduluming but also get the stage to actually set down when the deck isn't moving under it a lot. Doable but a fun motion control problem to program.


If they were going to do a ship to ship transfer, I believe they'd be better off with, rather than craning from one barge to another, creating a system that can lay the stage horizontal and set it on a faster, narrower boat with proper cradling.  Maybe that would allow them to remove the legs in transit, and they'd have much of the reprocessing one by the time they offloaded the stage in port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/26/2016 11:17 pm
That's amazing. However their target is a fixed platform.

Not always!  Ship-to-ship motion compensation is demonstrated here:

Makes you sea-sick just watching it.  :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/26/2016 11:22 pm
Has anyone plotted the location of all ASDS landing attempts so far? Do we have a pattern developing? (perhaps factor out some of the early ones that had high margins and were almost standins for RTLS) My thinking here is that even with two ASDSii[1], you don't need a full complement of support ships IF two successive landings are fairly closeish together... you have a fast tug shoot out bringing an empty ASDS, and turning around to tow one ASDS back with stage, while the flotilla and empty ASDS decamp to the next location. Sucks to be the guys on board the flotilla as they don't get as much shore leave but they can handle it...

Note that, if money is no object, there's nothing stopping them using a ship-carrier to get the ASDS out on station a fair bit quicker than any "fast tug" could tow it.

(http://worldmaritimenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Dockwise-Supports-Combination-with-Boskalis.jpg)

Float-on, float-off..

EDIT:  If they sent a maintenance crew along with it, they could clean the barnacles off of the hull and refresh the anti-foul whilst they're on the way out.  ;D


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 04/26/2016 11:48 pm
Go Sisters are near Droneship. When it all nears departure we should tweet to PTZtv folks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 04/27/2016 09:47 am
That's amazing. However their target is a fixed platform. Transferring a stage from one barge to another would require a different sort of compensation...

When hooking the stage, the crane has to move in concert with the tip of the stage, but when setting the stage down the crane has to avoid penduluming but also get the stage to actually set down when the deck isn't moving under it a lot. Doable but a fun motion control problem to program.

Well, if the crane is compensated for six degrees of freedom, you can theoretically keep the hook immobile in the referential of the barge ship, with proper instrumentation (I don't say its easy, but after all, they manage to land a stick on top of a single booster). Even in the referential of the top of the stage, it's not that much harder (since the stage is immobile on the ASDS).

Now, if they have a lifting fixture on the end of this hook, as we have seen before, that is a problem, since the fixture will try to stay more or less vertical when the stage is not. So the fixture has to be changed, and now, you need something that also controls its motion at the end of the crane (2 to 3 additional degrees of freedom : the rotations), to match the axis of the fixture with the ones of the stage. That's pretty complicated, but I think it would be still doable.

Then (once you have lifted it), you can use this same system to slowly dampen the pendulum effect and bring the stage back to a stop relative to the transporting ship.

I do like this idea. although it would certainly not be cheap, it might be cheaper than operating another ASDS, to have an integrated support ship capable of starting work on reconditioning the stage while still at sea.

But still. As long as there is no consistent need of a second ASDS, I say they probably will try to catch every stage they can with JRtI in order to get the maximum amount of data on returned stages. Then if they start having too many stages in storage, either they start to put older ones in museums or scrap them. And if the ASDS is not available, because of repairs or because it's busy with an other stage, no big deal just go expandable.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 04/27/2016 01:47 pm
I don't see any need to know the precise wind speed in the final moments before touchdown except for after-the-fact analysis (which IMHO they would need) because there's no way to make use of the data in real time.

With adequate measurement upwind, you can get a complete picture of the wind and gusts in the next 5 seconds.
This means that there are never any unexpected gusts, or winds in the last 5 seconds. (Or more strictly, the unknown magnitude is vastly smaller)
You measure the wind environment in a shell around the craft, and build in these expected forces into your landing model, instead of assuming a simple constant wind field at the same value you measured 5s before landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/27/2016 02:07 pm
using a ship-carrier to get the ASDS out on station a fair bit quicker than any "fast tug" could tow it.
Once the ASDS was on that ship carrier then there would be no ship to ship motion so a crane mounted on the ship carrier could pluck the stage off the ASDS then return the empty ASDS to the water to catch another.  BUT a) would still have pendulum motion to deal with while its hanging from the crane, b) initial contact between the ASDS and ship carrier would be hellatious since they'd be moving in the waves differently (vs.normal loading in a calm harbor), c) this is the max $$$$$ solution.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 04/27/2016 02:24 pm
Why are we making a big of this?
A.  The flight rate isn't going to be that high (for ASDS missions) to need the transfer.
b.  The problem was fixed long ago (it was designed for the open sea)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/27/2016 03:47 pm
No activity visible on OCISLY.

Ready for Friday night departure?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/27/2016 04:07 pm
Why are we making a big of this?
A.  The flight rate isn't going to be that high (for ASDS missions) to need the transfer.
b.  The problem was fixed long ago (it was designed for the open sea)
That looks like a really expensive solution.  I'll bet if someone tried it using such fancy and expensive equipment they'd go out of business.  Needs to be a SpaceX budget(able) solution.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 04/27/2016 04:44 pm
My humble opinion...  ???
The cheapest solution here... is start the ball rolling on the OCISLY barge copy to be built for the upcoming Texas need...
And charter much more powerful tugs to do "fast drags" of barges to where they are needed...  as needed...
Base whole east coast fleet out of Port Canaveral...
For Texas launches... drag one down south of Miami and do a small boost forward if need be to reach it...
Mix in some RTLS at both pad sites...
Job Done...
Just my opinion...  ;)

edit... spelling
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/27/2016 05:09 pm
I don't see any need to know the precise wind speed in the final moments before touchdown except for after-the-fact analysis (which IMHO they would need) because there's no way to make use of the data in real time.

With adequate measurement upwind, you can get a complete picture of the wind and gusts in the next 5 seconds.
This means that there are never any unexpected gusts, or winds in the last 5 seconds. (Or more strictly, the unknown magnitude is vastly smaller)
You measure the wind environment in a shell around the craft, and build in these expected forces into your landing model, instead of assuming a simple constant wind field at the same value you measured 5s before landing.

True, they theoretically might be able to generate something like that with enough data points, but being able to put it to use (other than for later analysis) is another matter; there isn't currently a way to do so, because there's no way to uplink the data to the F9, and no way for the F9's flight control program to make use of it.

It's also worth bearing in mind that gusts are less of an issue at sea than on land (on average, there's far less variance between maximum and minimum wind speeds except in major storms). It's the same dynamic that gives us far steadier winds on flat plains than in the mountains; a flat surface vs. an uneven one.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/27/2016 06:39 pm
Why are we making a big of this?
A.  The flight rate isn't going to be that high (for ASDS missions) to need the transfer.

Sorry, Jim, but that's just too rational for this thread.  :)

By my way of figuring, one ASDS means a capability to handle launches a week apart - less, if a faster tug is used. So, if we assume 50% ASDS landings, one ASDS could handle a flight rate approaching 80 launches a year (40 to ASDS) - and thus worrying about it now is rather akin to worrying about the demise of the sun in a few billion years. If there are launches scheduled too close together, say two days apart, IMHO it'd be easier and far cheaper to adjust the schedule slightly than to create a transfer capability or expand the ASDS fleet. 

The spirit of Rube Goldberg does not merely walk through this thread, it parades in grand style.   ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/27/2016 06:53 pm
The spirit of Rube Goldberg does not merely walk through this thread, it parades in grand style.   ;)
Fanciful stuff has always been unwelcome... Jim's example, and the example of the crane that can handle movement of the ship it's mounted on... are real things that real people built and put into service to solve real problems.  I'm inclined to let those slide, but fanciful stuff? No. there are other threads for that.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cuddihy on 04/27/2016 09:43 pm
Also, what US Navy does, for example, to crane on/ off missiles from one ship to another is just separate the crane platform from either ship... i.e. use an aircraft. For missiles, a helicopter works.

I'm not sure a helicopter big enough for F9 exists, but there are airships in planning that would be big enough.

You'd really need a substantial flight rate to justify it, and at that point the economics probably point to it being more effective to either take them straight off the barge and fly to the hangar at the launch pad, or build a refueling/ sea launch platform to fly themselves back to the pad.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Brian45 on 04/27/2016 10:29 pm
Given the inherently dangerous act of landing a rocket on a moving platform, I would think that the risk of having a barge get taken out and have no sea landing capability for a few weeks/months while it is repaired/replaced would motivate SpaceX to have at least some sort of contingency barge plan on stand-by that could be rapidly put into service.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/27/2016 11:37 pm
using a ship-carrier to get the ASDS out on station a fair bit quicker than any "fast tug" could tow it.
Once the ASDS was on that ship carrier then there would be no ship to ship motion so a crane mounted on the ship carrier could pluck the stage off the ASDS then return the empty ASDS to the water to catch another.  BUT a) would still have pendulum motion to deal with while its hanging from the crane,

I wouldn't suggest doing this.. but that doesn't stop you from doing so. :)

b) initial contact between the ASDS and ship carrier would be hellatious since they'd be moving in the waves differently (vs.normal loading in a calm harbor),

Wrong.  Obviously they don't load in a typhoon, but there are plenty of videos on-line of ship loading at sea so I won't try to post one here (Dockwise are the biggest in this game, so start there).  Essentially the ship-carrier submerges and moves slowly (1-5 kts depending on conditions) to windward whilst the barge/ship comes in behind.  The wide front of the carrier creates a calm essentially wave-free area behind and once the barge/ship is tied off they blow ballast tanks and increase speed.. 

c) this is the max $$$$$ solution.

I'm not so sure about that.  It's certainly cheaper than Jim's solution and you pay per trip.  There aren't many crew required either since it's a straightforward operation.  If they didn't need the support ships for other reasons, I expect it would be far cheaper than having the ASDS towed out there the way they currently do. Heck, if they were really concerned about there-and-back man/hour costs (and they may not be) they could carry the support tugs out also.  8)

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/28/2016 01:29 am
Given the inherently dangerous act of landing a rocket on a moving platform, I would think that the risk of having a barge get taken out and have no sea landing capability for a few weeks/months while it is repaired/replaced would motivate SpaceX to have at least some sort of contingency barge plan on stand-by that could be rapidly put into service.

The risk of rendering an ASDS nonoperational for the next launch via a landing anomaly (one that ends with a kaboom) IMHO increases as the launch tempo increases (less time between sorties to effect repairs). My guesstimate is that SpaceX has, or will have, some sort of near-term contingency plans. My guess as to what they might be would be a kit to make seaworthiness repairs; a slab of deck plate (perhaps thicker than the current deck plate) to be welded over a hole for a temporary but seaworthy repair to damage like we saw recently, and perhaps more importantly, pre approval to do that sort of repair from both the hull owner and the Coast Guard inspector. Also, to speedily replace components such as we see in the modular gear on deck, the thrusters, etc, a written plan to remove those components (whatever is needed) from the ASDS on the opposite coast and air ship them to the one in need. Just having a plan in place would speed the process enormously.

Or, if the hull damage was such that it couldn't be fixed in time, a company that once famously re-purposed a pizza pan as an airborne directional antenna might rush into service a temporary ASDS; any flat-topped barge (or anything else with a large flat area that's strong enough) it could find, and send it out as-is (with the jacks and straps needed to secure the landed F9). The only absolutely necessary thing (IMHO) it couldn't do that an ASDS can is station keep, and that could be addressed via deep sea anchoring (regular anchors with very long anchor line, dropped well off each corner of the barge (about three times the depth) to keep it in place. This can be done in deep water (2000 or so feet is common in the usual recovery zone). It'd be very imperfect and ad-hoc, but might be worth the try vs. certain loss of the stage.   

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 04/28/2016 02:15 am
The only absolutely necessary thing (IMHO) it couldn't do that an ASDS can is station keep, and that could be addressed via deep sea anchoring (regular anchors with very long anchor line, dropped well off each corner of the barge (about three times the depth) to keep it in place. This can be done in deep water (2000 or so feet is common in the usual recovery zone). It'd be very imperfect and ad-hoc, but might be worth the try vs. certain loss of the stage.   


Not even enough to work.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/28/2016 03:49 am
The only absolutely necessary thing (IMHO) it couldn't do that an ASDS can is station keep, and that could be addressed via deep sea anchoring (regular anchors with very long anchor line, dropped well off each corner of the barge (about three times the depth) to keep it in place. This can be done in deep water (2000 or so feet is common in the usual recovery zone). It'd be very imperfect and ad-hoc, but might be worth the try vs. certain loss of the stage.   

Not even enough to work.

I'm not questioning that it won't work, but I'm curious to know why it won't work?

One big issue even I can see is you'd need approx 5 miles of zero buoyancy anchor line (with enough strength to hold a barge against current and seas), which is both bulky and rather pricy in that quantity, as well as a major job to deploy and recover.

Having personally dropped a lot of anchors for four-point anchoring, I'm moderately sure that four anchors as described could hold a barge in a sufficiently fixed position in fairly calm conditions (assuming the wind and sea direction don't change), BUT, placing it exactly at a per-determined set of coordinates is probably near impossible; it's going to end up fixed by up to a hundred yards off center in any direction (once the anchors are set and the rodes are trimmed) and I have no clue whatsoever if an F9, before launch but on the pad, could be programmed with a new aim point a hundred yards or so from the original one.  EDIT: Just did some calculations and I'm flat out wrong on anchoring; even with weighted rodes well trimmed for slack, that kind of length would have enough play in it to allow the barge to move by a width or more with even slight changes in current wind, and sea and sea.

What else did I miss?
Thanks!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 04/28/2016 03:57 am
My humble opinion...  ???
The cheapest solution here... is start the ball rolling on the OCISLY barge copy to be built for the upcoming Texas need...
And charter much more powerful tugs to do "fast drags" of barges to where they are needed...  as needed...
Base whole east coast fleet out of Port Canaveral...
For Texas launches... drag one down south of Miami and do a small boost forward if need be to reach it...
Mix in some RTLS at both pad sites...
Job Done...
Just my opinion...  ;)

edit... spelling


Wouldn't a boost forward increase the re-entry velocity?  Heating is critical enough as it is.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kaputnik on 04/28/2016 06:22 am
Deep sea anchoring (as used in oceanography buoys) is not like conventional anchoring, you don't want or need 3x scope.
The only realistic way of holding station is if the barge is self propelled, ideally using multiple thrusters. SpaceX have already got this one right.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 04/28/2016 10:17 am
So we're expecting OCISLY to depart sometime tomorrow (Friday), correct?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/28/2016 01:04 pm
So we're expecting OCISLY to depart sometime tomorrow (Friday), correct?


Yes, late Friday night if they follow the same script as SES-9.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/28/2016 01:08 pm
I always expect to see the ASDS leave port around the time of a successful static fire, although I think they left port shortly before the successful static fire of ses-9 (but after the start of the scheduled static fire window, IIRC; the static fire came late on the window).  I haven't heard anything about static fire timing for this one.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/28/2016 01:15 pm
I always expect to see the ASDS leave port around the time of a successful static fire, although I think they left port shortly before the successful static fire of ses-9 (but after the start of the scheduled static fire window, IIRC; the static fire came late on the window).  I haven't heard anything about static fire timing for this one.

Probably will have to leave before static fire, again.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 04/28/2016 01:31 pm
My humble opinion...  ???
The cheapest solution here... is start the ball rolling on the OCISLY barge copy to be built for the upcoming Texas need...
And charter much more powerful tugs to do "fast drags" of barges to where they are needed...  as needed...
Base whole east coast fleet out of Port Canaveral...
For Texas launches... drag one down south of Miami and do a small boost forward if need be to reach it...
Mix in some RTLS at both pad sites...
Job Done...
Just my opinion...  ;)

edit... spelling


Wouldn't a boost forward increase the re-entry velocity?  Heating is critical enough as it is.

How about call it upward boost... loft it a bit to add some downrange to the ballistic arc it's on...
Once the S2 has gone on... adding some loft to S1 to increase downrange should use little fuel margin...
Lofting burn...
Reentry burn...
Landing burn...

Think RTLS... but going the wrong way on the first burn...  :o

Again just thinking out loud...  ;)

On edit...
To clarify my original thought...
Two barges at Port Canaveral implies you now have flexibility and a spare on hand...
Worst case is one down south catching one from Texas and one out east catching one from the Cape at the same time...
Otherwise you have just built in some flexibility to fix or unload one while the other is busy... into your process...
Having them based together gives you options that splitting them up takes away...
Since SpaceX has indicated IIRC Texas is to be mostly Geo orbits... then my suggestion fits the need...
Just saying...  ;)

More edit...
Sure... your going for about 1100 miles downrange to catch S1 out of Texas... bit of a loft ok
BUT, your only dragging a barge less then 400 miles south to pull it off...
Just suggesting one idea... and a cheap and flexible one...  ;)

Even more edit...
Go catch two stages going two directions from 39A and 40 from the Cape same day even...
Catch a FH booster close in and the core far downrange... with the other booster to LZ1...
Like I said... lots of cheap options basing two barges at the Cape and none in Texas...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/28/2016 04:18 pm
Regarding the suggestions to get a larger / faster tug to give faster turnaround on 1 ASDS, two thoughts / suggestions for comment -
a) Are multiple tugs an option?  Seems like E3 is already at the large end of the spectrum though certainly not the biggest.
b) It seems to me that the easiest way to speed up the tugging is to have the ASDS unballasted during towing.  IIRC, there is 12' of water in the tanks to enhance stability during landing.  Or was it enough water to cause 12' of draft?  Whichever way, without ballast the ASDS drafts about 3'.  That's a lot less drag and a lot more speed.  Is this ballast needed for towing?  Assuming that the F9 can handle more rocking motion during tow?  If yes to all of the above then fit the ASDS with a built in ballast pumping system.

Regarding the proposals for deep sea anchoring -
Perhaps that scheme would benefit from having the anchor lines connected to 4 autonomous drone winches?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 04/28/2016 04:37 pm
EDIT: Just did some calculations and I'm flat out wrong on anchoring; even with weighted rodes well trimmed for slack, that kind of length would have enough play in it to allow the barge to move by a width or more with even slight changes in current wind, and sea and sea.


Bingo
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/28/2016 07:37 pm
Regarding the suggestions to get a larger / faster tug to give faster turnaround on 1 ASDS, two thoughts / suggestions for comment -
a) Are multiple tugs an option?  Seems like E3 is already at the large end of the spectrum though certainly not the biggest.
b) It seems to me that the easiest way to speed up the tugging is to have the ASDS unballasted during towing.  IIRC, there is 12' of water in the tanks to enhance stability during landing.  Or was it enough water to cause 12' of draft?  Whichever way, without ballast the ASDS drafts about 3'.  That's a lot less drag and a lot more speed.  Is this ballast needed for towing?  Assuming that the F9 can handle more rocking motion during tow?  If yes to all of the above then fit the ASDS with a built in ballast pumping system.

Regarding the proposals for deep sea anchoring -
Perhaps that scheme would benefit from having the anchor lines connected to 4 autonomous drone winches?

Mark, IMHO that's an excellent point on ballasting; taking the ASDS out ballasted absolutely increases drag, and thus reduces speed.

My question is, do we know whether it's salt or fresh water? If it's salt water, there's IMHO no reason why it would be hard to give the ASDS the capability to self-ballast on location (if it does not already have it). If that ballast water is fresh water (and also the source for the deck water cannons) then it becomes a bit harder, depending on the reasons. If the ASDS holds can't handle salt water due to corrosion concerns, then enabling it to do so would be harder (perhaps as hard as painting the interior with the same sort of paint as used on the exterior underwater areas). As for the water cannon, if those are fresh water, perhaps the ASDS could sortie with only one or two compartments ballasted with fresh water, and the rest empty (to be ballasted on location).

Hrmmm. I wonder what the towing speed difference is with an unballasted ASDS vs. a ballasted one? Elsbeth III is small for an oceangoing tug, but not underpowered (5000HP). but the real number we're looking for is bollard pull (the actual amount of force applied via the towline). That varies with tug engine, powertrain, and prop design so it's not a straight conversion from horsepower, but I'm lazy and just looking for a ballpark figure so... turns out Smith Marine has the answer; 50 tons. The tow line is 2 1/4 inch steel, which can easily handle that kind of load.

As for the ASDS... we need to calculate drag. So, I'm going to pretend the ASDS is just a barge (the only parts in the water essentially are). I'm way the heck out of my depth (pun intended) here, because I know how to do this for yachts, not barges, so I may be way the heck off. Okay, the two main factors are skin friction and wave (wake) making. Skin friction increases linearly with wetted area (so doubling the wetted hull area via ballasting or loading doubles skin friction) but speed increases drag by the square of the speed. So, doubling the speed doesn't double the drag, it squares it. Therefor, to go faster, you really, really need smaller wetted area vs. more power - so your point about ballasting is spot on; getting rid of the ballast (and halving the wetted area) would have far more impact on potential speed than getting a larger tug with twice the bollard pull.

I really should give calculating the actual potential speeds a try, but I need to look up some formulas for that, so I'll need some free time and coffee, neither of which are available to me at the moment. If I can, I'll give it a whirl later.
   

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/28/2016 07:48 pm
Old small powerboat driver here (in my misspent youth) and I remember the faster you could get on plane[1], the faster you could reach top speed. I also remember  that we got on plane faster if there weren't a lot of people in the bow seats, thus improving the angle of attack.

So if we're talking about manipulating ballast, any merit in having the front of the ASDS ride higher so it would plane easier? I don't know if it's even feasible to speak of getting a barge on plane.. how much more powerful of a tug is needed?

I also remember that the ride was rougher when you're on plane, especially when the waves were certain unfortunate heights/periods, so that there would be a perodic oscillation that would build up. (which you addressed by changing speed slightly) So maybe even if you COULD get on plane you might not WANT to, as it would damage the equipment. (maybe you plane on the way out but return more slowly so as not to damage the stage??)

Note that once you are on plane your wetted area (and thus, drag) goes way down. This is why getting on plane is key for a floatplane that wants to actually take off. As long as it's wallowing it'll never get up enough speed to get airborne. It takes more power to GET on plane than it does to STAY on plane so the excess power then can be used to accelerate further.

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planing_%28boat%29
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/28/2016 08:06 pm
Quote
So if we're talking about manipulating ballast, any merit in having the front of the ASDS ride higher so it would plane easier? I don't know if it's even feasible to speak of getting a barge on plane.. how much more powerful of a tug is needed?

A million-pound barge on a plane? Shirley, you jest.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/28/2016 08:23 pm
Quote
So if we're talking about manipulating ballast, any merit in having the front of the ASDS ride higher so it would plane easier? I don't know if it's even feasible to speak of getting a barge on plane.. how much more powerful of a tug is needed?

A million-pound barge on a plane? Shirley, you jest.  ;)
On plane, not on *A* plane. And don't call me Shirley. :) I trust you did read the WP article I linked...

Although it does seem unlikely, the ASDS does have one thing going for it, the aft end is flat, which helps to achieve planing. But the power required to overcome the hull speed might be immense.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/28/2016 08:32 pm
Lar,

Kabloona is right.  It'll be best if you cop to a jesting charge.

There are planing hulls and there are displacement hulls.  Barges and tug boats have displacement hulls.

CJ,

Yes, the fresh vs. salt question is a large question and I don't know the answer.  The other question that figures large into my unballasting suggestion is whether the towing of CRS-8 back to port was done at a reduced speed because they felt the stage couldn't handle more boaty motion than it was getting at the reduced speed....or not.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Doesitfloat on 04/28/2016 08:43 pm
Regarding the suggestions to get a larger / faster tug to give faster turnaround on 1 ASDS, two thoughts / suggestions for comment -
a) Are multiple tugs an option?  Seems like E3 is already at the large end of the spectrum though certainly not the biggest.
b) It seems to me that the easiest way to speed up the tugging is to have the ASDS unballasted during towing.  IIRC, there is 12' of water in the tanks to enhance stability during landing.  Or was it enough water to cause 12' of draft?  Whichever way, without ballast the ASDS drafts about 3'.  That's a lot less drag and a lot more speed.  Is this ballast needed for towing?  Assuming that the F9 can handle more rocking motion during tow?  If yes to all of the above then fit the ASDS with a built in ballast pumping system.

Regarding the proposals for deep sea anchoring -
Perhaps that scheme would benefit from having the anchor lines connected to 4 autonomous drone winches?

Mark, IMHO that's an excellent point on ballasting; taking the ASDS out ballasted absolutely increases drag, and thus reduces speed.

My question is, do we know whether it's salt or fresh water? If it's salt water, there's IMHO no reason why it would be hard to give the ASDS the capability to self-ballast on location (if it does not already have it). If that ballast water is fresh water (and also the source for the deck water cannons) then it becomes a bit harder, depending on the reasons. If the ASDS holds can't handle salt water due to corrosion concerns, then enabling it to do so would be harder (perhaps as hard as painting the interior with the same sort of paint as used on the exterior underwater areas). As for the water cannon, if those are fresh water, perhaps the ASDS could sortie with only one or two compartments ballasted with fresh water, and the rest empty (to be ballasted on location).

Hrmmm. I wonder what the towing speed difference is with an unballasted ASDS vs. a ballasted one? Elsbeth III is small for an oceangoing tug, but not underpowered (5000HP). but the real number we're looking for is bollard pull (the actual amount of force applied via the towline). That varies with tug engine, powertrain, and prop design so it's not a straight conversion from horsepower, but I'm lazy and just looking for a ballpark figure so... turns out Smith Marine has the answer; 50 tons. The tow line is 2 1/4 inch steel, which can easily handle that kind of load.

As for the ASDS... we need to calculate drag. So, I'm going to pretend the ASDS is just a barge (the only parts in the water essentially are). I'm way the heck out of my depth (pun intended) here, because I know how to do this for yachts, not barges, so I may be way the heck off. Okay, the two main factors are skin friction and wave (wake) making. Skin friction increases linearly with wetted area (so doubling the wetted hull area via ballasting or loading doubles skin friction) but speed increases drag by the square of the speed. So, doubling the speed doesn't double the drag, it squares it. Therefor, to go faster, you really, really need smaller wetted area vs. more power - so your point about ballasting is spot on; getting rid of the ballast (and halving the wetted area) would have far more impact on potential speed than getting a larger tug with twice the bollard pull.

I really should give calculating the actual potential speeds a try, but I need to look up some formulas for that, so I'll need some free time and coffee, neither of which are available to me at the moment. If I can, I'll give it a whirl later.
   

Won't make any difference you are fighting two facing two large limiting factors:

1) Drag- goes up exponentially till it starts to plane---Not going to happen   ::)
Don't need to do the math typical drag plot attached.

2) Propeller efficiency.  Propellers are designed for specific working limits. See the Wageningen B series curves below. We call these the fishhook curves. (thrust & torque-vertical axis, and speed-horizontal are dimensionless coefficients) Back in the day you could figure out which pitch by looking at you motor torque and drag numbers to match them to the best pitch on this chart. If you have controllable pitch propeller you get all the curves just set you operating point.  Notice how the lines drop sharply after they reach a maximum; these correspond to the torque coefficient.  This is what happens when you over power a propeller;  it cavitates and stops pulling.

The fastest we have seen the tugs is about 7 Kts(J=1.0). So Assuming these curves and controllable pitch propeller ( we get all the pitch lines) J / speed maxes out at 1.2 or 8.4 Kts.  Less than a knot and a half.
That's if you have enough power to overcome the drag.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 04/28/2016 08:50 pm
Next mod to the ASDS... more power...  :o
Add a 20,000+hp gas turbine stern drive to the hull...
Give the tug a remote control to the powerplant...
Tell em to dial it up till it tries to pass you...  ;D

on edit...
I'm kidding of course...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: acsawdey on 04/28/2016 08:53 pm
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/565637505811488768?lang=en (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/565637505811488768?lang=en)

Elon mentioned giving it a Merlin. How fast would that go?  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/28/2016 08:54 pm
Doesitfloat-

- Is ballasting with sea water OK?
- If the ASDS were easier to tow couldn't the propellers on the tug be changed to be efficient at a higher speed?
- What do you think of towing the ASDS unballasted?
- Built in ballasting / unballasting system feasible?  Rapid?


edit: I don't think a Merlin or a 20,000 hp gas turbine would be a productive modification.  Look at the drag curve.  Need to do something to create a different curve.  Thus my inquiry on unballasting.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rds100 on 04/28/2016 08:54 pm
It can work, if the stage is towing the ASDS, should have enough power  ;) Just kidding.
I'm still for "pickup the stage with a sufficiently large helicopter and bring it to shore this way, leave the ASDS in place waiting for the next stage". Unfortunately i was told that such a helicopter doesn't exist today.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Doesitfloat on 04/28/2016 08:58 pm
Next mod to the ASDS... more power...  :o
Add a 20,000+hp gas turbine stern drive to the hull...
Give the tug a remote control to the powerplant...
Tell em to dial it up till it tries to pass you...  ;D

on edit...
I'm kidding of course...  ;)

But You're right it will fit on an LCAC


****Elon---We need a Hovercraft****
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/28/2016 09:08 pm
Kabloona is right.  It'll be best if you cop to a jesting charge.

I'll plead ignorance but not jesting. I never jest. Honest. :)

I bet there's a way to get that barge on plane.  Just not a practical way.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Doesitfloat on 04/28/2016 09:12 pm
Doesitfloat-

- Is ballasting with sea water OK?
- If the ASDS were easier to tow couldn't the propellers on the tug be changed to be efficient at a higher speed?
- What do you think of towing the ASDS unballasted?
- Built in ballasting / unballasting system feasible?  Rapid?


edit: I don't think a Merlin or a 20,000 hp gas turbine would be a productive modification.  Look at the drag curve.  Need to do something to create a different curve.  Thus my inquiry on unballasting.

Ballasting with seawater is normal.  Most ports require ships to exchange ballast water 15-20 miles out to limit invasive marine species.

Very difficult to change to high speed propellers.  Whole boat/engine/ gearbox set up to pull/push at slow speed.

Easier to tow ballasted.  Less movement on the end of a long towline.

Built in ballasting is possible not usually done on a deck cargo barge. Just tanks below the deck; no machinery per classification.  We have seen pictures using the Marmac barges as dry-dock equipped with external piping to ballast tanks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/28/2016 09:18 pm
Kabloona is right.  It'll be best if you cop to a jesting charge.

I'll plead ignorance but not jesting. I never jest. Honest. :)

I bet there's a way to get that barge on plane.  Just not a practical way.

To be serious, no. Power requirement for a displacement hull that size to plane approaches infinity, more or less.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/28/2016 09:54 pm
***Hydrofoil Barge***
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/28/2016 09:58 pm
Quote
***Hydrofoil Barge***
Get real.


Does anyone have an app or such that will send (me) a message when a ship that is stationary for a long period of time moves?  Or when an AIS transponder is turned on?  I'm thinking currently of EIII, which is by Fishlips and off the grid, but this functionality would be useful in other cases as well, particularly in monitoring the west coast fleet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/28/2016 10:46 pm
Regarding the suggestions to get a larger / faster tug to give faster turnaround on 1 ASDS, two thoughts / suggestions for comment -
a) Are multiple tugs an option?  Seems like E3 is already at the large end of the spectrum though certainly not the biggest.
b) It seems to me that the easiest way to speed up the tugging is to have the ASDS unballasted during towing.  IIRC, there is 12' of water in the tanks to enhance stability during landing.  Or was it enough water to cause 12' of draft?  Whichever way, without ballast the ASDS drafts about 3'.  That's a lot less drag and a lot more speed.  Is this ballast needed for towing?  Assuming that the F9 can handle more rocking motion during tow?  If yes to all of the above then fit the ASDS with a built in ballast pumping system.

1.  IIRC from the same discussion we had last thread, the ASDS is ballasted with fresh water and it's the same water that's used to hose down the deck during landing.  There was some talk around them not wanting to hose down the stage with salt..  ::)

2.  For all the reasons recently posted, the only practical way to get the ASDS out there faster than towing it is to pick the whole lot up, tugs and all, and carry it - hence my earlier suggestion re. Dockwise.  With cruising speeds around 15-20kts their entire business model is based around getting barge and tugs (and ships too, I guess) from Point 'A' to Point 'B' as quickly as possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dockwise

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/MV_Blue_Marlin_carrying_USS_Cole.jpg)


EDIT: ..and, before anyone asks, no, you couldn't land an F9 stage on the deck of the transporter.  They don't use (or need) any kind of active positioning system and, with hulls optimised for speed, roll like pigs when lightly loaded..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/28/2016 11:05 pm
...ya but can they get on plane to go faster? :)

Actually 15kt is significantly fast.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/28/2016 11:17 pm
...ya but can they get on plane to go faster? :)

Actually 15kt is significantly fast.

Remember that to carry another vessel, they're all pretty decent-sized ships.. and displacement hull speed increases proportional to water line length.

Eg.: Without wanting to go too far off-topic, below is a pic of a Pilot boat holding station with a cruise ship we were on last year.  Needless to say, we were plodding slowly along and he was trying his hardest to keep up! :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/29/2016 01:15 am
@ Cameron D; thanks for the fresh water info; I'd forgotten that, and it makes sense they'd use fresh water.

Won't make any difference you are fighting two facing two large limiting factors:

1) Drag- goes up exponentially till it starts to plane---Not going to happen   ::)
Don't need to do the math typical drag plot attached.

2) Propeller efficiency.  Propellers are designed for specific working limits. See the Wageningen B series curves below. We call these the fishhook curves. (thrust & torque-vertical axis, and speed-horizontal are dimensionless coefficients) Back in the day you could figure out which pitch by looking at you motor torque and drag numbers to match them to the best pitch on this chart. If you have controllable pitch propeller you get all the curves just set you operating point.  Notice how the lines drop sharply after they reach a maximum; these correspond to the torque coefficient.  This is what happens when you over power a propeller;  it cavitates and stops pulling.

The fastest we have seen the tugs is about 7 Kts(J=1.0). So Assuming these curves and controllable pitch propeller ( we get all the pitch lines) J / speed maxes out at 1.2 or 8.4 Kts.  Less than a knot and a half.
That's if you have enough power to overcome the drag.

Thanks, you saved me from some research and math.

The props on Elsebeth III are 3 Bird-Johnson props in Kort nozzles (in other words, ducted props, not variable pitch, and that type of nozzle is often used on low speed craft, as it loses its usefulness at about 9 knots).

The tugs have been seen towing an ASDS at 7 knots? Any idea where? If it's in a strong favoring current, that's not a true speed, but if that's actual speed through the water, that's actually quite an improvement from 5 knots. To go out 400 standard miles, 69 hours at 5 knots, 49 hours at 7kt. Shaving off 20 hours each way might be quite useful in case of a scheduling bottleneck necessitating a fast ASDS turnaround.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/29/2016 02:29 am
The tugs have been seen towing an ASDS at 7 knots? Any idea where? If it's in a strong favoring current, that's not a true speed, but if that's actual speed through the water, that's actually quite an improvement from 5 knots. To go out 400 standard miles, 69 hours at 5 knots, 49 hours at 7kt. Shaving off 20 hours each way might be quite useful in case of a scheduling bottleneck necessitating a fast ASDS turnaround.

Nope.  The issue, pure an simply, is fuel economy.

From Doesitfloat's graphs we see drag increases exponentially with speed and, generally speaking, fuel consumption follows a similar curve.  There is a limit to the amount of fuel each of the Support Tugs can carry (ASDS on-station duration is similarly constrained), so whether or not they can do the tow at 7kts becomes kinda irrelevant if they'll run out of fuel when they get there and need to call the USCG to tow them back.

I wonder how fast a Coast Guard Cutter could tow an ASDS??  ;D
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 04/29/2016 05:22 am
I wonder how fast a Coast Guard Cutter could tow an ASDS??  ;D
 

USCG cutters are just frigate size units that can keep pace with Amphibious units.

A lot more interesting is how fast a Burke class Destroyer can towed the ASDS. Considering they are fitted to tow an active sonar array.  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: The Amazing Catstronaut on 04/29/2016 06:15 am

A lot more interesting is how fast a Burke class Destroyer can towed the ASDS. Considering they are fitted to tow an active sonar array.  ;D

Don't destroyers create a lot of wake for their size when moving at speed?  The sonar array is suspended under the waterline whilst towed so it's not all that vulnerable to wave action. The barge doesn't have that luxury.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/29/2016 07:57 am
The tugs have been seen towing an ASDS at 7 knots? Any idea where? If it's in a strong favoring current, that's not a true speed, but if that's actual speed through the water, that's actually quite an improvement from 5 knots. To go out 400 standard miles, 69 hours at 5 knots, 49 hours at 7kt. Shaving off 20 hours each way might be quite useful in case of a scheduling bottleneck necessitating a fast ASDS turnaround.

Nope.  The issue, pure an simply, is fuel economy.

From Doesitfloat's graphs we see drag increases exponentially with speed and, generally speaking, fuel consumption follows a similar curve.  There is a limit to the amount of fuel each of the Support Tugs can carry (ASDS on-station duration is similarly constrained), so whether or not they can do the tow at 7kts becomes kinda irrelevant if they'll run out of fuel when they get there and need to call the USCG to tow them back.

I wonder how fast a Coast Guard Cutter could tow an ASDS??  ;D
 

Going from 5 to 7 knots looks like it increases drag by a factor of 3. So, let's factor in some guesses at reduced efficiency and say that it'll increase fuel consumption by a factor of 4, which is probably too high, but let's use it. That's not a problem (except for cost, so they'd only do it in case of need); Elsbeth III carries 80,000 gallons of diesel, and has towed a (on a normal speed run, not 7 knots) a 400 foot barge from Norfolk, Virginia, to Seattle, Washington (via Panama) on 70,000 gallons. That's about 7000 miles, so even if we divide that by 4 for a 7 knot tow, it's still a lot more than an ASDS sortie (max about 400 out, 400 back, plus some use on station). 

Uhoh, I feel a bit of a Rube Goldberg mood coming on, which is compelling me to ponder using one ASDS to recover two Falcon Heavy side cores... can it be done? The ideal way was one Lar came up with; land the cores on towards the opposite ends. But, if that's not viable (not enough accuracy) then... could an ASDS be joined by a deck barge, lashed stern to stern once on station  and the ASDS positioning system keep both of them on station? I'm assuming light seas here... so the ASDS thrusters should have the capacity, and the ASDS bow will be into the wind. I'm betting the ASDS positioning software would need some changes - but are there other reasons this wouldn't work?

 If there isn't a way to make an ASDS do double duty, they may need 3 ASDS for a non-RTLS FH launch; one for each side core and one further downrange for the center core.   
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RobLynn on 04/29/2016 10:37 am
Pitch and roll stabilisation can be done with a heavy concrete weight suspended 100's of meters below the barge by 4 equal length cables from each corner of the barge.  Because the cables are always in tension it behaves like an enormously long keel to transfer weight to whichever side is highest.

And for convenience you can leave it on the seabed between missions, only winching it up and attaching it to the barge when a mission with rough weather happens (though likely just as easy to fit a winch in middle of barge to haul it up on a 5th central cable).

Taken to the limit the concrete weight could be transported while the ASDS has no ballast water then lowered and rested on the bottom (which takes some of the weight) before pumping in water ballast so that you could also use the keel to eliminate heave and so have a perfectly stable platform.

Might save a bit on leg loads/mass.  And might also reduce the required leg length slightly.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jet Black on 04/29/2016 10:57 am
I expect that if the reuse stuff works (we still don't know if those stages are reusable many times or not) and they get a decent launch cadence, they'll have to go for something much more custom than a jury rigged marmac barge, perhaps with separate landing/shipping elements so the large, unweildy landing element doesn't have to move far. What they have at the moment is ok for eperimentation, but not terribly efficient.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Semmel on 04/29/2016 12:29 pm
OK spacefans...er, barge fans...get ready for OCISLY to head out tonight.

So soon?

Anyway, I sincerely hope that this will bring back this thread to the quality of the old one. Since resetting, this thread has become way worse than the old one. First time I see that happening on this forum, usually its the other way around.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 04/29/2016 12:29 pm
OK spacefans...er, barge fans...get ready for OCISLY to head out tonight.

I will be in the port this afternoon, will check what's going on.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/29/2016 12:34 pm
OK spacefans...er, barge fans...get ready for OCISLY to head out tonight.

So soon?

Correction:

I'm expecting OCISLY to depart almost exactly 5 days (120-ish hours) before launch time based on SES-9 operations.

But the latest published launch NET was early morning hours of May 4th, and we've already passed that L-120 hours mark, with OCISlY still in port and no sign of activity. (Sorry, my math was off about expected departure tonight).

So this make me wonder if the launch date is slipping again and we just haven't heard yet. I expect we may hear a new NET today...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/29/2016 01:16 pm
As I mentioned earlier, usually we have a static fire schedule (even if only in L2) before the ASDS leaves port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/29/2016 01:24 pm
As I mentioned earlier, usually we have a static fire schedule (even if only in L2) before the ASDS leaves port.

There is one scheduled in L2. Don't know why it's not also on the public side.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/29/2016 01:33 pm
OK spacefans...er, barge fans...get ready for OCISLY to head out tonight.

So soon?

Anyway, I sincerely hope that this will bring back this thread to the quality of the old one. Since resetting, this thread has become way worse than the old one. First time I see that happening on this forum, usually its the other way around.

Maybe we need to split into operational, with no future speculation at all (not even capacity calculations) and future speculation? I will ponder and then ask the big boss what he thinks. (says the guy who's part of the problem)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 04/29/2016 01:37 pm
Question... to steer this thread back to topic...  ;D

What would be the estimated cost (we think) to replicate OCISLY class ship as a new build...???

Right now... it's a leased asset with all kinds of add on (but removable) items...

Cost (all in) to build a clone to own...  ???

My WAG... $25 mil... I may be way off however...  :P
Those here with a better number based on experience... your thoughts?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kevinof on 04/29/2016 01:51 pm
Divide by 10!  The barge itself is not a complicated build and therefore not a very high cost. Doesn't have a powerplant, rudders or anything fancy.

Not sure about the cost of the add-ons.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/29/2016 02:06 pm
Anyway, I sincerely hope that this will bring back this thread to the quality of the old one. Since resetting, this thread has become way worse than the old one. First time I see that happening on this forum, usually its the other way around.

I think the phenomenon you have seen is not related to this being thread 3 but rather that it coincided with the hugely successful thread chronicling the triumphant return to port.  That thread created some new ASDS fans or at least turned some new people onto this thread.  So now here we have not only the crusty old ASDS watchers that have seen every posting of every bit of ASDS news from beginning to end and can tell you the polar moment of inertia of the ASDS to within 1%, but also a fair portion of new blood who don't know it in that detail.  Some questions that have been answered will get re-asked.  It would be nice if we had a "what is known & resources" page to help out newer ASDS groupies.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 04/29/2016 02:11 pm
Is that a tug backing up to OCISLY on http://www.portcanaveralwebcam.com/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 04/29/2016 02:24 pm
Divide by 10!  The barge itself is not a complicated build and therefore not a very high cost. Doesn't have a powerplant, rudders or anything fancy.

Not sure about the cost of the add-ons.

Ok... so I am way off... lets say $3 mil for the hull with enclosed wings and thruster mounts... WAG
The rest... to own... $1+ mil... maybe $2 mil...
So $5 million (all in) to own an OCISLY clone...???

If so... catch one stage and bring it back... it's paid for...  :o
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Doesitfloat on 04/29/2016 02:27 pm
I have a spreadsheet for quick cost estimate.
Came up with 11 million.  If it was built in a shipyard.  McDonough Marine is not a shipyard so they will probably be cheaper.
In addition the cost of steel is currently at very low price. I gave $100 ton but it has fluctuated between 500-50 per ton since 2013.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/29/2016 02:30 pm
Way back in the ancient history of this thread we had links to the various sites where barges are listed for purchase or lease.  That would probably be a reasonable way to estimate value/cost.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 04/29/2016 02:36 pm
I have a spreadsheet for quick cost estimate.
Came up with 11 million.  If it was built in a shipyard.  McDonough Marine is not a shipyard so they will probably be cheaper.
In addition the cost of steel is currently at very low price. I gave $100 ton but it has fluctuated between 500-50 per ton since 2013.

Ok... lets say $10 mil for the hull... and $5 mil for all the rest... $15 mil all in to own a clone...
Still in the... catch one and it's paid for range...  :o
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: KSHavre on 04/29/2016 02:39 pm
As I mentioned earlier, usually we have a static fire schedule (even if only in L2) before the ASDS leaves port.

There is one scheduled in L2. Don't know why it's not also on the public side.

I do not want to break L2 rules. So I will say, no need to watch the webcam today, but hang in there!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 04/29/2016 03:19 pm
Yeah, was going to be tomorrow, but more likely Sunday or Monday (we're waiting for an updated schedule).

Anyhoo....barges. ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/29/2016 03:31 pm
Yeah, was going to be tomorrow, but more likely Sunday or Monday (we're waiting for an updated schedule).

Anyhoo....barges. ;D
ASDSssss (stamps foot!)

Seems to me that with the current slump in shipping, now is a good time to be negotiating long term leases or even new construction (or a lease of new construction that is purpose built)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 04/29/2016 05:58 pm
My opinion...  ;)
I'm starting to think "Semi trucks and trailers" to use an analogy...

ASDS's are the trailers... cheap (relatively) and can be spread around and left idle unmanned...
Tugs and Go boats... they are the costly items... Semi tractors and the crews to man them...

Build more Trailers (ASDS's) and spread them around to add capacity...
Have enough Tractors (Tugs / Go boats) to tend to active trailers to fit the pace...

Active ASDS's are really only active when they catch a stage at sea... other wise they are only in transit or being loaded/unloaded... (or sitting idle)

Go boats... really a little bigger boat that can stay at sea a while and tow a ASDS in a pinch would be ideal...
Same idea, same uses... just enough balls and fuel to also act as ASDS tugboat when the need is there...
Also... can stay out 30+ days and the crew have a comfortable stay while out on duty...

Tugs... hired help... I would not own tugs... but I would hire the best and use them to shuttle ASDS's in and out of ports...

I hope you see where this is going... this idea...
Tug#1 and ASDS#1 leaves port and slowly heads to drop zone...
Go+ boat goes on duty and catches up at sea with pair at the drop zone...
Go+ takes the ASDS in tow/control and Tug returns to port bareback
Go+ and ASDS separate on time and catches S1... secures and make ready to travel...
Tug#2 comes out towing ASDS#2 and they swap loads in tow...
Tug#2 brings S1 into port... Go+ takes ASDS#2 to next drop zone and repeats process...

Anyway... cost wise, this idea seems to make the most sense if things get real busy downrange...  ;)

On edit...
Go+ equals purpose made ship with helipad, a modest crane, deck storage, towing winches...
Purpose is an 'at sea' mother ship 'tender' to watch over and herd up to three ASDS+ barges at once within a 10 mile radius...
Has on board amenities to support a crew for up to 45 days on duty (max) on station...
Can tow a ASDS+ at modest speeds as needed...

ASDS+ equals new build unmanned normally drone ship with better integrated and larger thrusters and much more fuel capacity built into the hull...
Needs to be new build, purpose built, yet low cost, durable, easy to fix if crashed into, and normally unmanned...
Designed to be towed for distance moves... yet can station keep under Go+ control for days if need be...
Maybe can even follow along behind/beside the Go+ in open seas to move a grouping to a new drop zone...

Tugs equals hired 50+ton bollard pull ships to shuttle ASDS+ ships out to Go+ and back to port as needed..

Speed is not the concern... process constraint is overcome with numbers inbound and outbound...

With the above... you could scale up to a crazy fast launch cadence with a two Go+ ship fleet and a small herd of ASDS+ ships...

later edit... spelling...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 04/29/2016 10:54 pm
The tug and support boats were milling about in the harbor and then redocked
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 04/29/2016 10:57 pm
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 04/30/2016 01:05 am
From the CRS-8 update thread;
Wow - SpaceX just tweeted a 360 degree video of the stage landing on OCISLY. You have to view it on YouTube, but if viewed with smartphone you can move your phone around to adjust viewing angle...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDK5TF2BOhQ

it looks to me as if the F9 was moving upwind on approach. I wonder if this is coincidence, or a planned act? If the latter, it implies that the F9 guidance system can be updated just prior to launch in order to optimize for wind direction (whatever wind direction the ASDS or support ship are reporting near launch). 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 04/30/2016 01:28 am
From the CRS-8 update thread;

it looks to me as if the F9 was moving upwind on approach. I wonder if this is coincidence, or a planned act? If the latter, it implies that the F9 guidance system can be updated just prior to launch in order to optimize for wind direction (whatever wind direction the ASDS or support ship are reporting near launch).
Musk said in the post-launch presser that the F9 was leaning into the wind. So maybe the ASDS was broadcasting real-time weather data.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 04/30/2016 02:11 am
Has anyone seen a recent AIS position report for Elsbeth III? My MarineTraffic feed says her AIS was last updated 17 days ago. So either the app/data feed is wonky (though other ships like Go Quest have current position report updates), or her AIS transponder is turned off...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 04/30/2016 02:15 am
From the CRS-8 update thread;

it looks to me as if the F9 was moving upwind on approach. I wonder if this is coincidence, or a planned act? If the latter, it implies that the F9 guidance system can be updated just prior to launch in order to optimize for wind direction (whatever wind direction the ASDS or support ship are reporting near launch).
Musk said in the post-launch presser that the F9 was leaning into the wind. So maybe the ASDS was broadcasting real-time weather data.
I don't know if it was upwind but I don't think that implies that the rocket required any external information prior to launch nor from external sources to know which way the wind is blowing.

The F9 knows it's orientation.  It knows its instantaneous position.  It knows the actions it is taking to target it's intended goal.  My guess is if SpaceX tries to adjust for wind in any sort of predictive way, then the first pass at doing so will be using information that the rocket can derive in realtime.

Like Bob Dylan said, you don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Tuts36 on 04/30/2016 03:15 am
From Elon Musk's twitter:

Quote

Phil Jackson ‏@phillipcjackson 5h5 hours ago Maryland, USA

.@elonmusk once it lands on the drone ship how do you secure it so it doesn't tip over? #SpaceX #model3reserved
1 retweet 0 likes

Elon Musk Verified account
‏@elonmusk

@phillipcjackson turns out it doesn't need securing


After all those lengthy discussions...!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/30/2016 03:39 am
From Elon Musk's twitter:

Quote

Phil Jackson ‏@phillipcjackson 5h5 hours ago Maryland, USA

.@elonmusk once it lands on the drone ship how do you secure it so it doesn't tip over? #SpaceX #model3reserved
1 retweet 0 likes

Elon Musk Verified account
‏@elonmusk

@phillipcjackson turns out it doesn't need securing


After all those lengthy discussions...!

Well, let's point out the obvious: the CRS-8 stage *was* in fact secured to OCISLY, but probably to prevent sliding around on deck (and guard against leg collapse) rather than "tipping over," which many of us here argued was never a real concern due to low CG. Good to hear Elon agrees with us.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/30/2016 03:44 am
Has anyone seen a recent AIS position report for Elsbeth III? My MarineTraffic feed says her AIS was last updated 17 days ago. So either the app/data feed is wonky (though other ships like Go Quest have current position report updates), or her AIS transponder is turned off...

Probably just turned off while she's idle. We've seen her go dark in the past.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: tadaniels on 04/30/2016 05:41 am
Isn't that Elsbeth III moored outboard of the GO twins in Jim's post #751?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/30/2016 09:17 am
Isn't that Elsbeth III moored outboard of the GO twins in Jim's post #751?

Yup, that's her.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/30/2016 09:28 am
Public reports elsewhere that launch has slipped until the 5th, which makes OCISLY departure probable early Sunday morning.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kaputnik on 04/30/2016 10:05 am
Just wanted to say thanks to CameronD for having the patience to inject some realism into this discussion. As someone who works at sea I find some of the more outlandish questions and suggestions hilarious and/or exasperating.

SpaceX have got this right- off the shelf dynamic positioning system, barge, tug. Repeat as necessary for multiple recoveries.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JeffinLondon on 04/30/2016 02:15 pm
Dumb question ya'll


Can someone say just how far the tugs are stationed away from the drone ship during a landing attempt?

Many thanks in advance.

 - Jeff
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 04/30/2016 03:24 pm
Dumb question ya'll


Can someone say just how far the tugs are stationed away from the drone ship during a landing attempt?

Many thanks in advance.

 - Jeff
Not a dumb question at all. The answer is: a few miles. Someone here is bound to have an exact number of miles for you.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/30/2016 05:39 pm
Quote
Dumb question ya'll
Are the Go * ships which I know have bow thrusters able to self park or do they need tugs?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: majormajor42 on 04/30/2016 05:59 pm
From the CRS-8 update thread;
Wow - SpaceX just tweeted a 360 degree video of the stage landing on OCISLY. You have to view it on YouTube, but if viewed with smartphone you can move your phone around to adjust viewing angle...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDK5TF2BOhQ



wasn't there water being sprayed on deck during the landing on previous attempts? I don't see them doing this in the newest video.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/30/2016 06:20 pm
Thanks for the explanation of how the 3D view works.  I watched the video from a desktop yesterday and was puzzled by the 3D description.

As for the water spray, yes, that's been known from the previous overhead video.  One take on it is that they only used the water on the first few times because they were reacting to the deck doom scenarios posted on NSF and the proposed solutions.  Now that they see they don't need it they know not to take advice from NSF postings.  They'll probably go with engineering analysis from now on.   ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sewebster on 04/30/2016 06:30 pm
Thanks for the explanation of how the 3D view works.  I watched the video from a desktop yesterday and was puzzled by the 3D description.

FYI you can click and drag on the video when using a desktop to look around...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 04/30/2016 06:34 pm

Dumb question ya'll


Can someone say just how far the tugs are stationed away from the drone ship during a landing attempt?

Many thanks in advance.

 - Jeff
Not a dumb question at all. The answer is: a few miles. Someone here is bound to have an exact number of miles for you.
IIRC, when examining the FCC permits for transmission, the support ships are positioned roughly 10 (statute?) miles from the ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hankelow8 on 04/30/2016 06:52 pm

Dumb question ya'll


Can someone say just how far the tugs are stationed away from the drone ship during a landing attempt?

Many thanks in advance.

 - Jeff






Not a dumb question at all. The answer is: a few miles. Someone here is bound to have an exact number of miles for you.
IIRC, when examining the FCC permits for transmission, the support ships are positioned roughly 10 (statute?) miles from the ASDS.



Now that Space X have proven their accuracy for landing  on ASDs, I wonder if they will be allowed to stand off at a much closer distance. 10 miles distance now seems way over the top for safety constraints.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 04/30/2016 08:13 pm

Dumb question ya'll

Can someone say just how far the tugs are stationed away from the drone ship during a landing attempt?

Many thanks in advance.

 - Jeff
Not a dumb question at all. The answer is: a few miles. Someone here is bound to have an exact number of miles for you.
IIRC, when examining the FCC permits for transmission, the support ships are positioned roughly 10 (statute?) miles from the ASDS.
Now that Space X have proven their accuracy for landing  on ASDs, I wonder if they will be allowed to stand off at a much closer distance. 10 miles distance now seems way over the top for safety constants.
I don't know for a fact but I think the safety concern is the IIP of debris and/or the rocket if something goes horribly wrong.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 04/30/2016 11:03 pm
OCISLY leaving the dock. Still in frame at http://www.portcanaveralwebcam.com/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 04/30/2016 11:10 pm
Camera operator is on point with Ocisily views.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 04/30/2016 11:19 pm
Tug called Stephanie S pushing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: acsawdey on 04/30/2016 11:22 pm
What is the yellow apparatus at the starboard rear of OCISLY? Seems like it has two vertical bars in back, a cylinder inside, and perhaps a ladder on the deck side? It seems to be overhanging the stern slightly.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 04/30/2016 11:26 pm
I noticed that thing too, I think it may be new. Got good screen shots of it, but don't think I can post them for IP reasons. On the other hand, it is not an angle we usually see Ocisly from.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jeff Lerner on 04/30/2016 11:53 pm
Kind of like watching paint dry...slow transit of Ocisly and tug...


......Aaannnnd we are done...web cam now showing another ship...hopefully the next time we see Ocisly there is another Falcon 9 standing tall on her deck....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 05/01/2016 12:27 am
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160501/17926c1e2e02f72a5259cf46e466dce6.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 05/01/2016 12:34 am
I saw nothing on Marinetraffic for EIII today or yesterday when the three ships were splashing around the harbor.  Kinda odd considering Marinetraffic has a receiver bolted to Fishlips.  I only see one current hit and no path / track from EIII on Vesselfinder.  Is anyone seeing better with the other services?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AnalogMan on 05/01/2016 12:53 am
I saw nothing on Marinetraffic for EIII today or yesterday when the three ships were splashing around the harbor.  Kinda odd considering Marinetraffic has a receiver bolted to Fishlips.  I only see one current hit and no path / track from EIII on Vesselfinder.  Is anyone seeing better with the other services?

I see a track on both vesselfinder.com and marinetraffic.com

Position data seems to have been available since 00:28 UTC.  Currently heading about 120 degrees at 5 knots.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 05/01/2016 03:31 am
Yes! Our girl Elsbeth III now transmitting and outbound. I hope her crew is even half as interested in her activity as we are...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/01/2016 11:45 pm
From the CRS-8 update thread;
Wow - SpaceX just tweeted a 360 degree video of the stage landing on OCISLY. You have to view it on YouTube, but if viewed with smartphone you can move your phone around to adjust viewing angle...

It's a shame they didn't leave the camera running..  What would have been even more interesting in 360deg would be the sight of the safing crew coming aboard and doing their thing.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 05/02/2016 01:17 am
From the CRS-8 update thread;
Wow - SpaceX just tweeted a 360 degree video of the stage landing on OCISLY. You have to view it on YouTube, but if viewed with smartphone you can move your phone around to adjust viewing angle...

It's a shame they didn't leave the camera running..  What would have been even more interesting in 360deg would be the sight of the safing crew coming aboard and doing their thing.
 

Maybe they have the footage, just no released yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 05/02/2016 01:26 am
From the CRS-8 update thread;
Wow - SpaceX just tweeted a 360 degree video of the stage landing on OCISLY. You have to view it on YouTube, but if viewed with smartphone you can move your phone around to adjust viewing angle...

It's a shame they didn't leave the camera running..  What would have been even more interesting in 360deg would be the sight of the safing crew coming aboard and doing their thing.
 

And since this was a topic elsewhere - no sonic boom in the video...  Obvious why, but still cool.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/02/2016 01:37 am
Go Quest heading out to sea:

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:450521/mmsi:367564890/imo:1155515/vessel:GO_QUEST

Edit: Same for Go Searcher

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:426008/mmsi:366584000/imo:9591648/vessel:GO_SEARCHER
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/02/2016 02:46 am
Go Quest heading out to sea:

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:450521/mmsi:367564890/imo:1155515/vessel:GO_QUEST

Edit: Same for Go Searcher

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:426008/mmsi:366584000/imo:9591648/vessel:GO_SEARCHER

Interesting to note that Marinetraffic's reporting AIS source in this instance is operated by "PTZtv and Fishlips".  Sounds like they've more invested in Port Canaveral than just a few cameras.


EDIT:  Go Searcher increasing speed..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 05/02/2016 02:51 am
if both Go sisters are going does that mean fairing recovery work?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/02/2016 03:39 am
if both Go sisters are going does that mean fairing recovery work?

That's our working thoery, at least for fairing tracking if not yet recovery.

So far, GO Searcher has been dispatched on missions only with fairings, and stayed at home for CRS-8 (carrying Dragon instead of payload fairing).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 05/02/2016 06:13 am
What is the yellow apparatus at the starboard rear of OCISLY? Seems like it has two vertical bars in back, a cylinder inside, and perhaps a ladder on the deck side? It seems to be overhanging the stern slightly.

I noticed that thing too, I think it may be new. Got good screen shots of it, but don't think I can post them for IP reasons. On the other hand, it is not an angle we usually see Ocisly from.

Matthew

I couldn't see departure so all I have are these still frames...anyway.

http://www.portfever.com/webcam_player_pcw.php?date=20160430&start=1141&end=1200

Frame 1159 onwards. Yes a ladder and guard rails on top. What could be its function? Also there is a roof shielding over space behind blast shield at stern where they keep jacks, gas cylinders, work platform and cherry picker etc . Nice to see Droneship evolution after every attempt! they have colored the mini shields protecting the hydraulic lines to thrusters as yellow too.

Adding an image I found on Instagram by user '_adamgoodwin'

https://www.instagram.com/p/BE0DaEmBzPM/

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 05/02/2016 06:22 am
And since this was a topic elsewhere - no sonic boom in the video...  Obvious why, but still cool.

Except there was a sonic boom... Did you watch the same video?  Check your volume maybe ;)  There's ambient noise from the gensets, then three quick pops immediately followed by rocket sounds that persist until cutoff.  The mic on this setup lacks sufficient dynamic range, so the boom and thrust sounds don't sound much louder than the ambient noise on the recording.  I'm sure it's quite different in person :)

I can believe there being three pops at minimum range... During Orbcomm I heard two from State Road 3, and Jim heard 1 from wherever he was.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 05/02/2016 07:04 am
And since this was a topic elsewhere - no sonic boom in the video...  Obvious why, but still cool.

Except there was a sonic boom... Did you watch the same video?  Check your volume maybe ;)  There's ambient noise from the gensets, then three quick pops immediately followed by rocket sounds that persist until cutoff.  The mic on this setup lacks sufficient dynamic range, so the boom and thrust sounds don't sound much louder than the ambient noise on the recording.  I'm sure it's quite different in person :)

I can believe there being three pops at minimum range... During Orbcomm I heard two from State Road 3, and Jim heard 1 from wherever he was.
Yes  - but not very boom like...  Could be the mikes.  Or that along the flight axis you get a much weaker "boom".

EDIT:
It took 17 seconds from that ratatat to touchdown.   If that happened at 340 m/s, then the stage was accelerating at 20 m/s, so had a T/W = 3.0, on average.

right?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 05/02/2016 08:08 am
https://youtu.be/FdYGu9bTLhQ

Posted by ugordan https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38149.msg1464456#msg1464456

Had boom hit 13 sec before lights out so sonic boom hitting 17 seconds earlier on bulls eye sounds right and that is when Mr Seagull hitching a free ride on droneship decided not to be roasted so nothing too bothersome happened before the beginning of 360 video.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/02/2016 12:17 pm
if both Go sisters are going does that mean fairing recovery work?

That's our working thoery, at least for fairing tracking if not yet recovery.

So far, GO Searcher has been dispatched on missions only with fairings, and stayed at home for CRS-8 (carrying Dragon instead of payload fairing).
I'm a fan and proponent of that working theory.  Just to play devil's advocate, though: all the "with fairing" missions have been GTO attempts, right?  It's *possible* that the second Go * ship is there for some other GTO-related reason, maybe even just downrange distance, say.  We'll really get confirmation if we see it going out for a LEO-with-fairing mission... or if it comes back with bits of fairing on deck. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/02/2016 01:39 pm
if both Go sisters are going does that mean fairing recovery work?

That's our working thoery, at least for fairing tracking if not yet recovery.

So far, GO Searcher has been dispatched on missions only with fairings, and stayed at home for CRS-8 (carrying Dragon instead of payload fairing).
I'm a fan and proponent of that working theory.  Just to play devil's advocate, though: all the "with fairing" missions have been GTO attempts, right?  It's *possible* that the second Go * ship is there for some other GTO-related reason, maybe even just downrange distance, say.  We'll really get confirmation if we see it going out for a LEO-with-fairing mission... or if it comes back with bits of fairing on deck. ;)

Yes, Searcher has done only GTO missions so far.

But hopefully they can perfect fairing recovery on GTO launches, not just LEO, otherwise there's really no point in trying since vast majority of fairings used will be on GTO's.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 05/02/2016 01:57 pm
Rewatching my landing video, I remembered wrong, it was also 3 pops in about the same cadence as this new video.

Here's how the Orbcomm landing's sonic boom was modeled; obviously the boom for an ASDS landing could be different for any number of reasons, but I'd say there's no chance of there not being a boom at ground zero.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 05/02/2016 03:13 pm
Rewatching my landing video, I remembered wrong, it was also 3 pops in about the same cadence as this new video.

Here's how the Orbcomm landing's sonic boom was modeled; obviously the boom for an ASDS landing could be different for any number of reasons, but I'd say there's no chance of there not being a boom at ground zero.
Yes, agreed.

So if a vehicle is moving towards you at some constant supersonic speed, how far ahead is the sonic boom?

(Then we can talk about a decelerating vehicle)

We should take this to a different thread, but if this is a way to figure out the deceleration during final approach, that will be cool.

EDIT:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_boom
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/02/2016 03:23 pm
The sonic boom travels at the speed of sound, naturally.  Typically it would be behind you; the only way it can arrive *before* you is if you are decelerating, such that the sonic boom catches up to you and passes you.  I think someone upthread already did the math assuming constant deceleration.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 05/02/2016 03:25 pm
Rewatching my landing video, I remembered wrong, it was also 3 pops in about the same cadence as this new video.

Here's how the Orbcomm landing's sonic boom was modeled; obviously the boom for an ASDS landing could be different for any number of reasons, but I'd say there's no chance of there not being a boom at ground zero.
Yes, agreed.

So if a vehicle is moving towards you at some constant supersonic speed, how far ahead is the sonic boom?

(Then we can talk about a decelerating vehicle)

We should take this to a different thread, but if this is a way to figure out the deceleration during final approach, that will be cool.

EDIT:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_boom
So as I remembered (see picture), a sonic boom is only heard behind the vehicle, along a cone whose angle depends on the speed of the vehicle (and the speed of sound).   So for every speed you get a different angle, but it's always backwards of the vehicle.

But, if you look at the illustrations, there's another degenerate case - exactly at Mach 1.0  Then you get a boom directly in front of the vehicle, but only during the moment of crossing the speed of sound.

Remember that a sonic boom is not a "thing".  It's just the place where a bunch of shock fronts have constructive interference.  It doesn't "propagate" because it doesn't exist outside of that location.

I am not sure what we're hearing at ground level.  Maybe it's a shock wave from the stage doing Mach>1 while still having a horizontal component...
 
But the most curious thing here is that 2g average deceleration.  I thought our estimate for the "slam" in hoverslam was about 1g.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/02/2016 06:27 pm
Quote
So as I remembered (see picture), a sonic boom is only heard behind the vehicle, along a cone whose angle depends on the speed of the vehicle (and the speed of sound).   So for every speed you get a different angle, but it's always backwards of the vehicle.

That is true only for a body which continues on at M>1 or M=1.  cscott is correct above that if the vehicle is decelerating, the shock waves it created at supersonic speed *can* pass ahead of it. So the sonic boom *can* be heard directly "ahead" of a body decelerating below supersonic.

This is analogous to your M>1 diagram in which the point source (the center of the circles) suddenly slows below M=1 and stops creating more shock "circles." But the existing shock "circles" continue to propagate outward in all directions, including "ahead" of the last point where the body was supersonic.

This is why the sonic boom could be heard right on the landing pad, directly "ahead" of the incoming, now-subsonic stage...if only there were someone on the pad to actually hear it...  :)


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 05/02/2016 07:10 pm
Quote
So as I remembered (see picture), a sonic boom is only heard behind the vehicle, along a cone whose angle depends on the speed of the vehicle (and the speed of sound).   So for every speed you get a different angle, but it's always backwards of the vehicle.

That is true only for a body which continues on at M>1 or M=1.  cscott is correct above that if the vehicle is decelerating, the shock waves it created at supersonic speed *can* pass ahead of it. So the sonic boom *can* be heard directly "ahead" of a body decelerating below supersonic.

This is analogous to your M>1 diagram in which the point source (the center of the circles) suddenly slows below M=1 and stops creating more shock "circles." But the existing shock "circles" continue to propagate outward in all directions, including "ahead" of the last point where the body was supersonic.

This is why the sonic boom could be heard right on the landing pad, directly "ahead" of the incoming, now-subsonic stage...if only there were someone on the pad to actually hear it...  :)

Right - I'm aware of that - which is why it is interesting...

Let's assume the vehicle is decelerating along a straight line.

In all the "cone" section, the wavefronts at each point are moving at different directions (each originating from the vehicle when it was at a different position) and so the shock doesn't "move".  There's just "wave group" information there.

But in the front of the vehicle, at mach 1.0, all those shocks are moving in the same direction - forward.  And at the same velocity...  Which means that there is a real propagating "boom" just along the axis.

I want to use this to estimate the amount of slam in the hoverslam.  It's a really good data point.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 05/02/2016 08:06 pm
What is the yellow apparatus at the starboard rear of OCISLY? Seems like it has two vertical bars in back, a cylinder inside, and perhaps a ladder on the deck side? It seems to be overhanging the stern slightly.

I noticed that thing too, I think it may be new. Got good screen shots of it, but don't think I can post them for IP reasons. On the other hand, it is not an angle we usually see Ocisly from.

Matthew

I couldn't see departure so all I have are these still frames...anyway.

http://www.portfever.com/webcam_player_pcw.php?date=20160430&start=1141&end=1200

Frame 1159 onwards. Yes a ladder and guard rails on top. What could be its function?
A similar feature has appeared on the back of Go Quest in the last set of images I saw.  I'll leave that to you as an exercise to look it up  ;)   My first thought was that the ladder on the stern of GQ would be butted up against the ladder on the stern of OCISLY and they would form a continuous ladder but on second thought that doesn't make much sense as the ladder on OCISLY starts at deck level and goes up to a useless height.  So here is my current thought for bunking or debunking as you prefer:  Both are commercial off the shelf ladders that have the ladder inset from two stout vertical bumpers so that the person on the ladder has some protection from being pinched between two hulls.  There is a fixed portion and a vertically displaceable portion.  That displaceable portion would go up in the case of the one on GQ to get to the deck height of OCISLY (forming a ladder twice the collapsed height) and the displaceable portion would go down in the case of the one on OCISLY to reach (approximately) the deck of GQ.  Either ladder would get the job done, no need for both simultaneously.

EDIT: Using Doesitfloat's search term below here you can see the how the bumper protection works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20G8lDzJWAo
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Doesitfloat on 05/02/2016 08:21 pm
off shore crew transfer
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/03/2016 04:43 am
off shore crew transfer

IMHO, it's a bit soppy really.  What's wrong with using a rope ladder?  Either that or they should learn to jump just like everyone else..  ::)

;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 05/03/2016 05:11 am
If it was hard to land on, it should be hard to board???
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/03/2016 05:15 am
If it was hard to land on, it should be hard to board???

Not at all.. but it seems likely that some well-meaning Health & Safety Rep may have paid a visit to poor unloved OCISLY during recent deck repairs and.. well... made a few suggestions.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 05/03/2016 05:34 am
The most important question for OCISLY is, have they renewed the 4-leaf clover?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 05/03/2016 10:54 am
off shore crew transfer

From that video Mark posted it really looks like it but I doubt this is to board the Droneship for accessing deck as after climbing that they would have to go over the guard rails and then clumsily hop to deck it has some other specific purpose. It is also not high enough to have a good view of deck and far from HPU to have anything to do with it.

They board the Droneship from stern where generators are as we saw when OCISLY arrived with trophy and was being berthed. Perimeter fence there is also chained not wired.

The most important question for OCISLY is, have they renewed the 4-leaf clover?

Yup it is there :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/03/2016 11:20 am
Sitting on deck, the ladder and bumpers are too high to do any good. Looks like they just put it on board temporarily and didn't have time to weld it into final position before leaving port.

It may go here when they have time to weld it on. Don't know if that's their usual boarding point, but it looks like there's a removeable safety chain there for crew boarding, suspended between the stanchions.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 05/03/2016 12:42 pm
Yes those are the chains I mentioned and yes that crew transfer thing is very last moment addition as it is not there on instagram image and the bumpers should rest against fendering like what Elsbeth III has on front (tyre stack). For Go Quest it would be metal vs metal pinching situation and its fendering is sparse so this isn't for GQ.

On a separate note  according to latest Terraserver imagery JRTI isn't at Long Beach at its usual location, not near Island Freeman where I expected it (but there is hole in imagery there) or where INTL Freedom is at the moment..

Edit:
Quote from: OxCartMark
A similar feature has appeared on the back of Go Quest in the last set of images I saw.  I'll leave that to you as an exercise to look it up

Found a link to the past. Compare the stern of Go Quest and NRC Quest. NRC Quest went without it on Jason 3 but GQ is going with it I assume.

Attached images are by /u/TheKrimsonKing (iwrRqdy.jpg 1 Jan 2016, hlOucpz.jpg 15 Jan 2016)
and Jim
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kaputnik on 05/03/2016 01:32 pm
In those pictures you can see the fast boat that will be used for ship-to-ship passenger transfer at sea.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Doesitfloat on 05/03/2016 01:43 pm
off shore crew transfer

From that video Mark posted it really looks like it but I doubt this is to board the Droneship for accessing deck as after climbing that they would have to go over the guard rails and then clumsily hop to deck it has some other specific purpose. It is also not high enough to have a good view of deck and far from HPU to have anything to do with it.

They board the Droneship from stern where generators are as we saw when OCISLY arrived with trophy and was being berthed. Perimeter fence there is also chained not wired.

The most important question for OCISLY is, have they renewed the 4-leaf clover?

Yup it is there :)

The thing about the Marine Industry is humans have been on the water for 10,000 years and someone has, "done it before." (Sarcarm__ And they screwed up and died.) So rules are written to prevent accidents. As a bonus it prevents internet experts from making Rube Goldberg contraptions for tasks.
See IMCA  SEL 25 - 4.2
And it's yellow for a reason
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 05/03/2016 02:00 pm
When Ocisly was leaving port, the zoomed in Port Canaveral webcam showed personel going between the ASDS and a tug. They used the break in the life lines circled in red above. If there had been 10 foot seas, I believe the new yellow gear would be used.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 05/03/2016 02:14 pm
Sitting on deck, the ladder and bumpers are too high to do any good. Looks like they just put it on board temporarily and didn't have time to weld it into final position before leaving port.

It may go here when they have time to weld it on. Don't know if that's their usual boarding point, but it looks like there's a removable safety chain there for crew boarding, suspended between the stanchions.
My original thought was that the ladder was telescoping / vertically sliding so that when in use it would extend down below the deck height but upon further review of your zoomed image I agree with your assessment.

Is there any reason that a yellow protrusion from the back of the ASDS would be a hindrance to barge usefulness?  Why is the back flat?  I suppose for connecting multiple barges together (which won't happen in ASDS use)?

Not of importance to this ASDS discussion but from looking at the images of these ladder & bumper devices in use it seems to me that there is a disconnect between the design intent and the way that they are used.  It appears to my eyes that the ladder is inset from the bumpers so that a person on the ladder won't be wiped out by a straight section of the boat moving up or down past them on waves.  But in the images and videos we've seen its not a straight section of the side of the boat but rather a protrusion of the boat side or the pointy bow of the boat that's nesteled into the gap toward the ladder ~thus decreasing 'man clearance'.  Hmmm, I suppose you could always be mashed through the ladder rungs if push comes to shove.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 05/03/2016 02:30 pm
@Doesitfloat

Let me rephrase I am not disputing its utility which was clear from the video but purpose.

Part of it is not visible another ladder should be there to descend if its main purpose is to have many people on deck and as Kabloona pointed why is it not at that much better place near generators. Also trying to figure if GQ gangway would be used on it or Elsbeth III front like Figure 5 on that document.

I assume GQ has main crew that handles deck operation related to stage while ElsbethIII crew are just responsible for handling Droneship.

Another very bothersome thing is this crew transfer apparatus is plopped right in front of the emergency towline! Well at least it is not ON it Almost on it but I guess line is well clear.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CraigLieb on 05/03/2016 03:23 pm
Not that it really matters, but is there going to be a BINGO thread this flight?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cro-magnon gramps on 05/03/2016 03:39 pm
Not that it really matters, but is there going to be a BINGO thread this flight?

perhaps one for where we expect the "HOLE" in the deck to be  ??? :o ::) :-X
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 05/03/2016 03:52 pm
Not that it really matters, but is there going to be a BINGO thread this flight?

perhaps one for where we expect the "HOLE" in the deck to be  ??? :o ::) :-X
If its like the last bingo or two it'll happen suddenly and without warning and (since we're all trained to go for the center now) if you miss the start by enough time to say, have gotten a burrito, then you are relegated to the outer perimeter.

I suggest that to further the bingo game on these potentially high impact landings we add additional information to our votes such that multiple people can be on the same square with different bets.  For instance, one person could bet U19 (for conventional landing) and one person could bet U19- (for a subsurface landing or a dented surface that requires plate replacement).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 05/03/2016 05:36 pm
Not that it really matters, but is there going to be a BINGO thread this flight?

perhaps one for where we expect the "HOLE" in the deck to be  ??? :o ::) :-X
If its like the last bingo or two it'll happen suddenly and without warning and (since we're all trained to go for the center now) if you miss the start by enough time to say, have gotten a burrito, then you are relegated to the outer perimeter.

I suggest that to further the bingo game on these potentially high impact landings we add additional information to our votes such that multiple people can be on the same square with different bets.  For instance, one person could bet U19 (for conventional landing) and one person could bet U19- (for a subsurface landing or a dented surface that requires plate replacement).

this is starting to sound suspicously like roulette
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 05/03/2016 05:40 pm
Not that it really matters, but is there going to be a BINGO thread this flight?
I consulted my magic 8 ball and got "all indications are yes"...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 05/03/2016 08:42 pm
Regarding the new gear (ladder); when OCISLY was returning with the F9, OCISLY was boarded (this was heard on the radio, apparently) by some SpaceX personnel just off Canaveral harbor. Some of these are speculated to have been VIP types, and thus high up in the company. They, even moreso than general SpaceX crew, would tend to be unaccustomed to the normal methods for ship to ship boarding - jumping/climbing. I also suspect that Cameron D is right regarding a safety inspector, especially if said inspector was aware that OCISLY had been boarded by novices (Novices at boarding ships at sea). That's a very different thing than being boarded only by a tug crew. 

In general, changes like this are what I expect to see for the ASDS; small changes based upon operational experience.

I'll also make a purely speculative (based in no evidence) prediction for another such change; a tarp for the lower portions of the F9 will be added to OCISLY's gear (it it hasn't already) and used to protect the F9 engine area from spray during transit.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: iamlucky13 on 05/03/2016 10:09 pm
off shore crew transfer

IMHO, it's a bit soppy really.  What's wrong with using a rope ladder?  Either that or they should learn to jump just like everyone else..  ::)


Horatio Hornblower certainly would not have approved. I recall he had pretty strong disdain for use of the bosun's chair. A sailor uses the ropes only. Ahh...I need to read those books again.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Arb on 05/03/2016 11:14 pm
off shore crew transfer

IMHO, it's a bit soppy really.  What's wrong with using a rope ladder?  Either that or they should learn to jump just like everyone else..  ::)


Horatio Hornblower certainly would not have approved. I recall he had pretty strong disdain for use of the bosun's chair. A sailor uses the ropes only. Ahh...I need to read those books again.

Patrick O'Brian 's Aubrey–Maturin series (Master and Commander, etc) is way better IMO; spend your time on those instead.

But we're way off topic.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/03/2016 11:42 pm
off shore crew transfer

IMHO, it's a bit soppy really.  What's wrong with using a rope ladder?  Either that or they should learn to jump just like everyone else..  ::)

Horatio Hornblower certainly would not have approved. I recall he had pretty strong disdain for use of the bosun's chair. A sailor uses the ropes only. Ahh...I need to read those books again.

Patrick O'Brian 's Aubrey–Maturin series (Master and Commander, etc) is way better IMO; spend your time on those instead.

I disagree with both those statements: (a) that there was any suggestion they use a bosun's chair and (b) that Patrick O'Brian's series comes anywhere close to CS Forester's..

But we're way off topic.

..but on this I do agree.  Here's hoping something happens soon - before we all go overboard!  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/04/2016 12:00 am
The most important question for OCISLY is, have they renewed the 4-leaf clover?

Yup it is there :)

The be quite honest, given the years of valuable arm-chair engineering design critique NSF has provided (in this thread alone) I'm a bit surprised no-one has yet scrawled "We love NasaSpaceFlight" right beside it...  Hell, they know we're looking!!!
 
..and on that note, I'm even more surprised SpaceX hasn't chosen to deliberately install some obscure urban artwork on deck someplace just to give us something else to feed on.  ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Bargemanos on 05/04/2016 08:39 am
The most important question for OCISLY is, have they renewed the 4-leaf clover?

Yup it is there :)

The be quite honest, given the years of valuable arm-chair engineering design critique NSF has provided (in this thread alone) I'm a bit surprised no-one has yet scrawled "We love NasaSpaceFlight" right beside it...  Hell, they know we're looking!!!
 
..and on that note, I'm even more surprised SpaceX hasn't chosen to deliberately install some obscure urban artwork on deck someplace just to give us something else to feed on.  ::)

i'd prefer a NSF bumper sticker we can search for in high res images!  ;D 8)

Just i case, here you go boys  ;)  :P
http://www.cafepress.com/nasasf.1330453213
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ludus on 05/04/2016 01:11 pm
Is the plan to eventually leave the ASDS on station and transfer the booster to a horizontal cradle on a GO ship with a crane?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 05/04/2016 01:33 pm
Is the plan to eventually leave the ASDS on station and transfer the booster to a horizontal cradle on a GO ship with a crane?
None of the three different helper ships is even remotely big enough to do that.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 05/04/2016 02:54 pm
Is the plan to eventually leave the ASDS on station and transfer the booster to a horizontal cradle on a GO ship with a crane?
There has been prior discussion of many variants on this approach.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 05/04/2016 06:55 pm
Is the plan to eventually leave the ASDS on station and transfer the booster to a horizontal cradle on a GO ship with a crane?

Be aware... that getting the "beanie cap" swinging from a crane lined up with the top of the stage...
...while both the stage and crane are moving about on the open seas...
... will be almost 'mission impossible'...  :P
It took a long time with the crane on dry land and the stage on a ship in port...  :-\
Just saying...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 05/04/2016 07:05 pm
Is the plan to eventually leave the ASDS on station and transfer the booster to a horizontal cradle on a GO ship with a crane?

Be aware... that getting the "beanie cap" swinging from a crane lined up with the top of the stage...
...while both the stage and crane are moving about on the open seas...
... will be almost 'mission impossible'...  :P
It took a long time with the crane on dry land and the stage on a ship in port...  :-\
Just saying...  ;)
See the discussion about 10 pages back about active stabilization for cranes.   Offshore energy development in the North Sea has advanced the state of the art.   Doesn't look cheap, though; until the launch rate increases it likely won't save them any money over bringing the barge back to port.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 05/04/2016 07:49 pm
Please don't read this post.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Since you didn't listen, here is awsome barge landing game on android:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ween.rocket

From:
https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4hk1k6/rocket_landing_game_android/

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 05/04/2016 10:26 pm
So that got me looking at my phone.  Its black with a flat screen.  When I lay it down face up it has some resemblance to an ASDS.  Perhaps someone could market a case that has bow angle, containers, blast wall etc., and an app that puts the circles and "X" on the screen?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris_Pi on 05/04/2016 11:11 pm
Shapeways probably has a case design that would fit whatever phone you have. Add the containers/blastwalls and the other bits to the model and do a multi-color print. Then all you need is a screen wallpaper to match. No app needed. Can probably hire out the design work for not too much - Low detail and not too much of it. Plenty of reference photos to work from, Too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 05/04/2016 11:24 pm
Id buy one, if it was IPad size. It could be more detailed, as there would be more room to work
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 05/05/2016 01:28 am
So now I've got interest in two of them in two sizes and one of them is potentially a paying customer.  Hmm...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 05/05/2016 03:50 am
I want one... or two. I have two Galaxy S5s

spawn a subthread? somewhere in the modeling/recreation section? we can carve out the posts, if desired. PM me.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/05/2016 12:17 pm
Elsbeth III speed plot from Reddit user robbak:

http://i.imgur.com/846I7uy.png?1

The dip at the "4 May" tick mark is about 96 hours after leaving port and likely represents the "drop off" operation where EIII cut OCISLY loose at the landing zone.

So they reached the LZ about 24 hours before the planned launch time.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 05/05/2016 01:39 pm
This might be mission update level, but when in doubt as they say, notification option under free services at Marine Traffic is "Sailing in high winds", you set the speed (I'm using 30 knots), which apparently includes areas beyond the coastal receivers.

ELSBETH III is reported to be sailing in high winds (34 knots, 208°) at: 
Time: 2016-05-05 07:59 UTC 
Position: 27.98077, -73.69197 
Speed/Course: 1.9 knots / 85° 

ELSBETH III is reported to be sailing in high winds (39 knots, 206°) at: 
Time: 2016-05-05 10:06 UTC 
Position: 28.16415, -73.71335 
Speed/Course: 6.6 knots / 316° 

GO QUEST is reported to be sailing in high winds (34 knots, 208°) at: 
Time: 2016-05-05 08:17 UTC 
Position: 28.12847, -73.75204 
Speed/Course: 0.7 knots / 109° 

GO SEARCHER is reported to be sailing in high winds (39 knots, 206°) at: 
Time: 2016-05-05 09:03 UTC 
Position: 28.20389, -73.79446 
Speed/Course: 4.7 knots / 351° 

Please note that the above Wind Data relies on weather forecasts that can be up to 24 hours old. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/05/2016 03:51 pm
Those high winds were probably the last storm front passing through.

Fortunately, winds near the LZ are at 20 knots now and falling. By midnight they are forecast to be 13 knots, so the weather for landing will be near perfect.

https://www.windyty.com/?28.217,-73.806,6

(The above are not the exact landing coordinates, but close enough for weather purposes)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 05/05/2016 04:13 pm
Here is the closest buoy I could find. about 120nm too far out.
http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=41047
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/06/2016 06:32 am
Looks like we'll need to set up another stage returning to port thread....let's get people out there taking photos, before we suffer the supplemented wrath of the webcam guy after he gets upset with social media ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/06/2016 06:33 am
Yep.. they nailed this one.  :D

(https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39843.0;attach=1114325;image)

..although what they were doing with that remotely-controlled fire sprinkler is anyone's guess.

Such a shame it was in the dark, so we didn't get to see any bounce... but the landing lights on the legs are pretty cool.  Better watch out for UFO reports about the time the stage was coming down.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 05/06/2016 06:37 am

Yep.. they nailed this one.  :D

(https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39843.0;attach=1114325;image)

..although what they were doing with that remotely-controlled fire sprinkler is anyone's guess.
Wind was doing that...

And dang! This just spelled a massive amount of future wasted time watching the port Canaveral webcam...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 05/06/2016 06:38 am
And dang! This just spelled a massive amount of future wasted time watching the port Canaveral webcam...
hopefully not as much as last time, this time I think they probably know which end of the stage to hook the crane to first try...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/06/2016 06:39 am
And dang! This just spelled a massive amount of future wasted time watching the port Canaveral webcam...
hopefully not as much as last time, this time I think they probably know which end of the stage to hook the crane to first try...

*YAWN*  Wake me up when something happens..

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 05/06/2016 07:14 am
Crossposting from the discussion thread:
Here's the money shots for the hosted and technical webcasts:

Hosted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0bMeDj76ig&feature=youtu.be&t=38m00s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0bMeDj76ig&feature=youtu.be&t=38m00s)

Technical:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lYZLxr3L4E&feature=youtu.be&t=38m10s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lYZLxr3L4E&feature=youtu.be&t=38m10s)

The technical link has a better view of the events.

Edit - It's always been a bit of an open question whether the vibrations from the acoustic environment alone would cause the satlink to temporarily lose sync, because the radomes have been blown away every time we had real-time video from the deck during descent.  We now know that the vibrations do indeed cause it to temporarily lose sync, but not drop frames.  It just spent some time paused, it didn't skip anything.

And we'll get to see any bounces that may have happened, once they get the video directly from the go-pros(and/or the 3D video) CameronD. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CraigLieb on 05/06/2016 08:32 am
I think the time may be coming that this whole section of the forum needs to be renamed to remove 'reusable' from the title because "of course rockets are reusable" ! It's the throw away stages which are rapidly becoming the quaint buggy-whip type story. It will soon be considered an unusual waste.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 05/06/2016 10:58 am
I think the time may be coming that this whole section of the forum needs to be renamed to remove 'reusable' from the title because "of course rockets are reusable" ! It's the throw away stages which are rapidly becoming the quaint buggy-whip type story. It will soon be considered an unusual waste.

No, the title can only be changed to recoverable at this time. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jet Black on 05/06/2016 11:26 am
I think the time may be coming that this whole section of the forum needs to be renamed to remove 'reusable' from the title because "of course rockets are reusable" ! It's the throw away stages which are rapidly becoming the quaint buggy-whip type story. It will soon be considered an unusual waste.

No, the title can only be changed to recoverable at this time.

Quite right. There are a few people who seem to be treating three very different landings as if the whole thing is a done deal. It still remains to be seen if these rockets can be reliably reused at a cost that is commercially beneficial. There are still a large number of unknowns to be overcome.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 05/06/2016 11:56 am
Keep us exuberant types honest, Jim and company... but so far indications are pretty promising, I'd say...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 05/06/2016 12:32 pm
I think I'm going to send Jim his very own monogrammed bucket...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: montyrmanley on 05/06/2016 12:41 pm
Keep us exuberant types honest, Jim and company... but so far indications are pretty promising, I'd say...

The Shuttle SRB's were "recoverable" -- they were jettisoned after powered flight, and came down on parachutes into the water, and had to be recovered and extensively rebuilt after every flight.

What SpaceX has done is a difference in kind. Their boosters landed under their own power on a floating barge. IIRC the booster from the Orbcomm mission has already been test-fired. There will no doubt be a certain amount of maintenance required between flights, but all indications are that the turnaround will be far shorter -- and much less expensive -- than with the SRB's. Blue Origin's recent adventures with the New Shepard vehicle are also pretty incredible, but much less challenging than what SpaceX has done. Prior to SpaceX and Blue Origin, the only real analogue would be the DCX/Delta Clipper, and that was never anything more than a fringe project that NASA funded only grudgingly and cancelled as soon as the craft was damaged in a landing attempt.

I agree that we can't claim "reusability" until SpaceX reflies a recovered stage, but they've already done the hard part in getting the booster back. I think the "reuse" part is only a matter of weeks, or a few months at most.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Mike_1179 on 05/06/2016 12:51 pm
Keep us exuberant types honest, Jim and company... but so far indications are pretty promising, I'd say...

The Shuttle SRB's were "recoverable" -- they were jettisoned after powered flight, and came down on parachutes into the water, and had to be recovered and extensively rebuilt after every flight.

What SpaceX has done is a difference in kind. Their boosters landed under their own power on a floating barge. IIRC the booster from the Orbcomm mission has already been test-fired. There will no doubt be a certain amount of maintenance required between flights, but all indications are that the turnaround will be far shorter -- and much less expensive -- than with the SRB's. Blue Origin's recent adventures with the New Shepard vehicle are also pretty incredible, but much less challenging than what SpaceX has done. Prior to SpaceX and Blue Origin, the only real analogue would be the DCX/Delta Clipper, and that was never anything more than a fringe project that NASA funded only grudgingly and cancelled as soon as the craft was damaged in a landing attempt.

I agree that we can't claim "reusability" until SpaceX reflies a recovered stage, but they've already done the hard part in getting the booster back. I think the "reuse" part is only a matter of weeks, or a few months at most.


The shuttle orbiter was both recoverable and re-usable but it took much more time and manpower to get it ready for re-use than was the original plan. Someone saying "we'll just fill stages up with gas and have 'em go again" is akin to saying in 1978 that the shuttle will have the same turnaround time as a commercial airliner.

Yes these are very important first steps and hard technical challenges. They're not there yet, not by a lot. (Still awesome to watch though)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 05/06/2016 01:13 pm
It occurs to me that with the surface level video of the landing that the support ships were within about 6 miles of ASDS (~ horizon distance from Go Quest's con). This is closer than we previously suspected, yes?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 05/06/2016 01:24 pm
The shuttle orbiter was both recoverable and re-usable but it took much more time and manpower to get it ready for re-use than was the original plan.  Someone saying "we'll just fill stages up with gas and have 'em go again" is akin to saying in 1978 that the shuttle will have the same turnaround time as a commercial airliner.
The orbiter is a completely different kettle of fish.  Not a good comparison at all.
Quote
Yes these are very important first steps and hard technical challenges. They're not there yet, not by a lot.
We'll see about that, won't we?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 05/06/2016 01:52 pm
So when should we expect ASDS in the port? Monday? Tuesday?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 05/06/2016 01:53 pm
It occurs to me that with the surface level video of the landing that the support ships were within about 6 miles of ASDS (~ horizon distance from Go Quest's con). This is closer than we previously suspected, yes?

I believe so yes... I think the assumption previous was close to 10 miles.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/06/2016 01:56 pm
So when should we expect ASDS in the port? Monday? Tuesday?

It took them almost exactly 4 days transit to reach the LZ. So 4 days minimum, ie Tuesday morning at earliest. But possibly later, since last time they took the return trip much slower than the outbound trip.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 05/06/2016 01:57 pm
So when should we expect ASDS in the port? Monday? Tuesday?

It took them almost exactly 4 days transit to reach the LZ. So 4 days minimum, ie Tuesday morning at earliest. But possibly later, since last time they took the return trip much slower than the outbound trip.

They're a good bit farther out in the Atlantic this time correct?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 05/06/2016 01:58 pm
Are you comparing with CRS-8 or SES-9?  SES-9 and JCSAT-14 were both quite a bit further out, IIRC.  On the other hand, the seas were much choppier for CRS-8 so they might make better time...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/06/2016 02:05 pm
So when should we expect ASDS in the port? Monday? Tuesday?

It took them almost exactly 4 days transit to reach the LZ. So 4 days minimum, ie Tuesday morning at earliest. But possibly later, since last time they took the return trip much slower than the outbound trip.

They're a good bit farther out in the Atlantic this time correct?

Same distance as for SES-9, but farther out than the "last time" they returned with an intact stage on board, ie CRS-8, when they dilly-dallied on returning to port.

Marine forecast is good through middle of next week, so they should be able to get home without weather delays this time.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JasonAW3 on 05/06/2016 02:17 pm
I think the time may be coming that this whole section of the forum needs to be renamed to remove 'reusable' from the title because "of course rockets are reusable" ! It's the throw away stages which are rapidly becoming the quaint buggy-whip type story. It will soon be considered an unusual waste.

No, the title can only be changed to recoverable at this time.

Quite right. There are a few people who seem to be treating three very different landings as if the whole thing is a done deal. It still remains to be seen if these rockets can be reliably reused at a cost that is commercially beneficial. There are still a large number of unknowns to be overcome.

Have to agree with Jim on this one.

     Once they've recovered about a dozen, and relaunched a few, THEN we should consider the rename of the forum.  (Personally, I'd wait until some of these first stages have reflown a few times each).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JasonAW3 on 05/06/2016 02:23 pm
I think they're gonna need a bigger barge when they go landing the BFR at sea...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CraigLieb on 05/06/2016 02:52 pm
I think the time may be coming that this whole section of the forum needs to be renamed to remove 'reusable' from the title because "of course rockets are reusable" ! It's the throw away stages which are rapidly becoming the quaint buggy-whip type story. It will soon be considered an unusual waste.

No, the title can only be changed to recoverable at this time.

Quite right. There are a few people who seem to be treating three very different landings as if the whole thing is a done deal. It still remains to be seen if these rockets can be reliably reused at a cost that is commercially beneficial. There are still a large number of unknowns to be overcome.

In agreement and with enormous respect for Jim and all, I did say ..the time may be coming.... I didn't say it was time yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ahecht on 05/06/2016 02:55 pm
I assume a FH recovery entirely at sea would require at least two ASDSs since the optimal LZ for the center stage is likely in a different location than for the outer stages. More realistically, a FH mission that involved a barge landing would have the two outer stages returning to LZ-1 and only the center stage landing on OCISLY.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JasonAW3 on 05/06/2016 03:47 pm
I assume a FH recovery entirely at sea would require at least two ASDSs since the optimal LZ for the center stage is likely in a different location than for the outer stages. More realistically, a FH mission that involved a barge landing would have the two outer stages returning to LZ-1 and only the center stage landing on OCISLY.

     I figure the outer stage RTLS landings will depend entirely on performance requirements.  Extra boost needed means more speed and distance.  The "GTO lob" may become fairly common if boosting to higher orbits or larger masses becomes a regular thing.  Don't see a reason why two more barges can't be set up, or rather a pair of more specialized ships, (SWATH Hulled, to reduce st sea chop issues) couldn't be built to handle these landings.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 05/06/2016 05:05 pm
It looks to me as if the ASDS needs to be made smaller.  Maybe we need to keep the outer circle but the deck space beyond that seems just unnecessary.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/06/2016 05:13 pm
We need the size for landing three cores on a single ship. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 05/06/2016 05:21 pm

Quite right. There are a few people who seem to be treating three very different landings as if the whole thing is a done deal. It still remains to be seen if these rockets can be reliably reused at a cost that is commercially beneficial. There are still a large number of unknowns to be overcome.

Like a bunch of people pointed out, the rocket is designed to be reusable.  The engines have been tested for reusability.  The first couple of recovered rockets have been inspected.

The hardest obstacle was passed, actually on the first try, when they did the first re-entry to a soft-splash in the ocean.

Already then, the writing was on the wall, and it's been getting easier since then - it's just the details take time, bugs ironed out, there was the loss of CRS-(I forget) - and so it's taken a little longer.

But make no mistake. This is a reusable system that's just working its way through the paces.

So sure - you can keep with "It's not been proven yet", but this is about outlook, not about proof.   And this is what the OP said.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 05/06/2016 05:33 pm
The statistical sample size is too limited still to determine needed ASDS deck size...  :P
2 standing and 1 fell over does not a trend line make...  ???
In my line of work (low volume product testing) the minimum sample size to find standard deviation is considered 10 units for initial work and 30 units to set limits...
Just saying...  ;)

My opinion... so far the deck size meets requirements...  :D
Need 27 more landings to determine if boat is truly too big...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: LouScheffer on 05/06/2016 05:57 pm
I think the time may be coming that this whole section of the forum needs to be renamed to remove 'reusable' from the title because "of course rockets are reusable" ! It's the throw away stages which are rapidly becoming the quaint buggy-whip type story. It will soon be considered an unusual waste.

No, the title can only be changed to recoverable at this time. 
You are absolutely correct that re-use has not yet been demonstrated.  But if I had to bet, I'd guess at least an 80% chance it will be demonstrated soon.  In fact I will bet:

I'm willing to offer 5:1 odds of the launch of a re-used core by SpaceX within a year.  In other words, for a $10 bet, if SpaceX re-launches a core on or before 6 May 2017, you pay me $10.  If no such launch occurs, I'll pay you $50.

Betting on the economic re-use, not just re-use of a core, would be better yet.  It seems impossible to settle, though, since there is no current agreement on current costs, or whether SpaceX is making a profit on their current launches.  So we need to stick to something that can be unambiguously observed.

Any takers?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/06/2016 06:04 pm
I think the time may be coming that this whole section of the forum needs to be renamed to remove 'reusable' from the title because "of course rockets are reusable" ! It's the throw away stages which are rapidly becoming the quaint buggy-whip type story. It will soon be considered an unusual waste.

No, the title can only be changed to recoverable at this time. 
You are absolutely correct that re-use has not yet been demonstrated.  But if I had to bet, I'd guess at least an 80% chance it will be demonstrated soon.  In fact I will bet:

I'm willing to offer 5:1 odds of the launch of a re-used core by SpaceX within a year.  In other words, for a $10 bet, if SpaceX re-launches a core on or before 6 May 2017, you pay me $10.  If no such launch occurs, I'll pay you $50.

Betting on the economic re-use, not just re-use of a core, would be better yet.  It seems impossible to settle, though, since there is no current agreement on current costs, or whether SpaceX is making a profit on their current launches.  So we need to stick to something that can be unambiguously observed.

Any takers?

Not me, I'd be on the same side of the bet as you.

But this begs for a new thread and/or poll,  "When will SpaceX first relaunch a used booster?" and, what will it be carrying? That's a whole 6 month's worth of speculation, polling, and betting.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 05/06/2016 06:04 pm
The statistical sample size is too limited still to determine needed ASDS deck size...  :P
2 standing and 1 fell over does not a trend line make...  ???
In my line of work (low volume product testing) the minimum sample size to find standard deviation is considered 10 units for initial work and 30 units to set limits...
Just saying...  ;)

My opinion... so far the deck size meets requirements...  :D
Need 27 more landings to determine if boat is truly too big...  ;)

I suspect the initial comment was tongue-firmly-in-cheek?!

The larger the ASDS is, the less it will be affected by waves - i.e. make it smaller and it will pitch and roll more, which in turn will make landing more difficult.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 05/06/2016 06:07 pm
I think the time may be coming that this whole section of the forum needs to be renamed to remove 'reusable' from the title because "of course rockets are reusable" ! It's the throw away stages which are rapidly becoming the quaint buggy-whip type story. It will soon be considered an unusual waste.

No, the title can only be changed to recoverable at this time. 
You are absolutely correct that re-use has not yet been demonstrated.  But if I had to bet, I'd guess at least an 80% chance it will be demonstrated soon.  In fact I will bet:

I'm willing to offer 5:1 odds of the launch of a re-used core by SpaceX within a year.  In other words, for a $10 bet, if SpaceX re-launches a core on or before 6 May 2017, you pay me $10.  If no such launch occurs, I'll pay you $50.

Betting on the economic re-use, not just re-use of a core, would be better yet.  It seems impossible to settle, though, since there is no current agreement on current costs, or whether SpaceX is making a profit on their current launches.  So we need to stick to something that can be unambiguously observed.

Any takers?

I'd say that unless SpaceX are flat-out misleading everyone about what they discovered on the returned stages, it's their price to set.

They will be miles ahead of anyone else in terms of cost, so almost by definition they can set a price that is low enough in order to attract as many customers as they want, low enough to grow the market, and yet high enough to make a good profit.

We're basically talking about launch a heavy booster for the cost of:
- the second stage
- the first stage / nFlights
- any recycle costs.
... and starting with a pretty low cost rocket to begin with.

... and this belongs in a general reusability thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cro-magnon gramps on 05/06/2016 06:48 pm
Same distance as for SES-9, but farther out than the "last time" they returned with an intact stage on board, ie CRS-8, when they dilly-dallied on returning to port.

Marine forecast is good through middle of next week, so they should be able to get home without weather delays this time.
Me Mom's old man was a cockney and
she would sing some of the old songs
to us... your comment (bolded) brought
to mind this song...

    My old man said "Foller the van,
    And don't dilly dally on the way".
    Off went the van wiv me 'ome packed in it,
    I followed on wiv me old cock linnet.
    But I dillied and dallied, dallied and I dillied
    Lost me way and don't know where to roam.

    Well you can't trust a special like the old time coppers.
    When you can't find your way 'ome.

Do we need to send a copper out to make sure OCISLY
gets 'ome with 'er wee falcon  ;D

edit: for reuse or recoverable etc... my view is this:

I would equate this day to the Wright Brothers, no longer having to rebuild or replacing their flying machine after every landing attempt  ;D ie, SpaceX are learning how to fly the First stage, and near to getting their wings. What it costs, is basically less than building a whole new first stage from scratch.

Whether or not it is economical is going to depend on how long and how much over the cost of a new stage is. What the break point is will depend on SpaceX's tolerance for expense. My guess it is going to be a developing story, as they improve design and recovery. "The End" has yet to be written to this story, and we shall have to wait a year or more to find out.

Gramps

edit 2, if this violates the thread, could Lars or whomever move it to an appropriate thread and let me know... taa
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/07/2016 01:48 pm
Are you comparing with CRS-8 or SES-9?  SES-9 and JCSAT-14 were both quite a bit further out, IIRC.  On the other hand, the seas were much choppier for CRS-8 so they might make better time...

Now Vesselfinder is forecasting an early Sunday return, so EIII must be towing faster than usual:

Quote
Elsbeth III ETA according to Vesselfinder is May 8th at 06:25

(Cross posted from Datuser14)

But that would be a sub-48-hour inbound trip (after subtracting time for vehicle post-landing safing ops) vs a 96-hour outbound trip, so more than double speed inbound...is that even possible?

So I remain skeptical about Sunday arrival.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 05/07/2016 02:00 pm
I'd put it at zero percent probability. That's almost 8 knots. More likely Monday night.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 05/07/2016 02:00 pm
Are you comparing with CRS-8 or SES-9?  SES-9 and JCSAT-14 were both quite a bit further out, IIRC.  On the other hand, the seas were much choppier for CRS-8 so they might make better time...

Now Vesselfinder is forecasting an early Sunday return, so EIII must be towing faster than usual:

Quote
Elsbeth III ETA according to Vesselfinder is May 8th at 06:25

(Cross posted from Datuser14)

But that would be a sub-48-hour inbound trip (after subtracting time for vehicle post-landing safing ops) vs a 96-hour outbound trip, so more than double speed inbound...is that even possible?

So I remain skeptical about Sunday arrival.

Frankly, me too. But during the CRS-8 return, wasn't there some discussion of very strong currents? I am not familiar enough with the Florida Atlantic coast to know if that was anything out of the ordinary.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 05/07/2016 02:37 pm
Are you comparing with CRS-8 or SES-9?  SES-9 and JCSAT-14 were both quite a bit further out, IIRC.  On the other hand, the seas were much choppier for CRS-8 so they might make better time...

Now Vesselfinder is forecasting an early Sunday return, so EIII must be towing faster than usual:

Quote
Elsbeth III ETA according to Vesselfinder is May 8th at 06:25

(Cross posted from Datuser14)

But that would be a sub-48-hour inbound trip (after subtracting time for vehicle post-landing safing ops) vs a 96-hour outbound trip, so more than double speed inbound...is that even possible?

So I remain skeptical about Sunday arrival.
Vesselfinder says 5.1 knots for Elsbeth III speed, is that fast? (Note: this info is not from their sat AIS subscription service, I don't have it).

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/07/2016 03:00 pm
Quote
Vesselfinder says 5.1 knots for Elsbeth III speed, is that fast? (Note: this info is not from their sat AIS subscription service, I don't have it).

No, that's normal speed for a 4-day trip, so I don't see now they can be predicting a 2-day trip.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: spacenut on 05/07/2016 03:13 pm
If they want to land all three stages at sea, maybe they could buy an old gutted aircraft carrier.   If it is a carrier with a side launch.  They could land one fore and aft and one on the side launcher.  Lots of equipment for beginning refurbishment could be stored below deck. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/07/2016 03:39 pm
If they want to land all three stages at sea, maybe they could buy an old gutted aircraft carrier.   If it is a carrier with a side launch.  They could land one fore and aft and one on the side launcher.  Lots of equipment for beginning refurbishment could be stored below deck.

****NEWS FLASH****

New thread created for all proposals that SpaceX buy an old aircraft carrier, oil rig, SeaLaunch Odyssey, etc:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40258.msg1530687#msg1530687

So that we may kindly avoid repeating such discussions on this thread for the 19th time...thank you.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 05/07/2016 04:09 pm
Quote
Vesselfinder says 5.1 knots for Elsbeth III speed, is that fast? (Note: this info is not from their sat AIS subscription service, I don't have it).

No, that's normal speed for a 4-day trip, so I don't see now they can be predicting a 2-day trip.

I'm virtually certain the Elsbeth III data is the same as the last received update when it stopped updating after leaving Port Canaveral.  I do not believe it's a computed ETA based on live data.  The ETA I suspect it is either calculated or a manually filed estimate from the date of departure and has not been updated since.


Edit:  As mentioned on Return Coverage thread.  That ETA says MARCH 8TH so it's clearly not being updated at all.   :o
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Coastal Ron on 05/08/2016 08:35 pm
Too many details to remember these days for what SpaceX is doing, and too many pages of threads to go thru, so I'll ask:

Do we know if SpaceX is building more barges for the East Coast?  Or are we thinking that they will stick with one for now?

I'm assuming the plan for Falcon Heavy is that they want to recover the boosters on land (RTLS), so a second one would only be needed as a backup, or to handle an increase in launch tempo.

Any updates would be appreciated.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/09/2016 12:51 am
No indication of new construction, and we got verification that MARMAC 300 isn't about to be reconverted either.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: bstrong on 05/09/2016 12:53 am
Too many details to remember these days for what SpaceX is doing, and too many pages of threads to go thru, so I'll ask:

Do we know if SpaceX is building more barges for the East Coast?  Or are we thinking that they will stick with one for now?

I'm assuming the plan for Falcon Heavy is that they want to recover the boosters on land (RTLS), so a second one would only be needed as a backup, or to handle an increase in launch tempo.

Any updates would be appreciated.

There aren't any that we know of, and Kabloona has reported that all the Marmac 3xx's are currently leased. However, there are quite a few similarly sized barges sitting idle in the bayous of Morgan City and Houma, so I imagine they could find one if needed.

If it was up to me, I'd have another one under construction right now purely for redundancy purposes. With a $60M launch every three weeks, a week's delay costs you $20M in revenue and probably $4M in earnings for the year. Since $4M is probably in the ballpark of the annual cost of an ASDS, it's worth it if you expect it to save just one week of launch delays due to waiting for barge repairs.

Or, if you lost your one-and-only ASDS in a storm, you could be forced to choose between splashing tens of millions of dollars worth of rockets vs delaying launches for a couple of months while you got a new one into service.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/09/2016 12:57 am
Or, if you lost your one-and-only ASDS in a storm, you could be forced to choose between splashing tens of millions of dollars worth of rockets vs delaying launches for a couple of months while you got a new one into service.

Practically speaking, you wouldn't.  You'd make one phone call to Dockwise and ask them to pick up the East Coast ASDS ASAP and bring it around in time for the next launch.  Sure, it wouldn't be cheap, but it wouldn't cost millions nor take months neither.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: bstrong on 05/09/2016 01:05 am
Or, if you lost your one-and-only ASDS in a storm, you could be forced to choose between splashing tens of millions of dollars worth of rockets vs delaying launches for a couple of months while you got a new one into service.

Practically speaking, you wouldn't.  You'd make one phone call to Dockwise and ask them to pick up the East Coast ASDS ASAP and bring it around in time for the next launch.  Sure, it wouldn't be cheap, but it wouldn't cost millions nor take months neither.

So, what's a reasonable estimate of the elapsed time between when you pick up the phone to call Dockwise and when JRTI is sitting in Port Canaveral with wings reattached and ready to put to sea? I have a hard time believing it could happen in three weeks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/09/2016 01:37 am
I have a feeling that SpaceX isn't quite ready to have quite as many cores returned as they are currently getting.  There is additional work to be done on the F9 design until these cores are really fully reusable, and those changes will take some time to work their way through the production line.  If they were to lose their East Coast ASDS tomorrow I don't see them spending huge amounts to replace it, not yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/09/2016 02:05 am
Or, if you lost your one-and-only ASDS in a storm, you could be forced to choose between splashing tens of millions of dollars worth of rockets vs delaying launches for a couple of months while you got a new one into service.

Practically speaking, you wouldn't.  You'd make one phone call to Dockwise and ask them to pick up the East Coast ASDS ASAP and bring it around in time for the next launch.  Sure, it wouldn't be cheap, but it wouldn't cost millions nor take months neither.

So, what's a reasonable estimate of the elapsed time between when you pick up the phone to call Dockwise and when JRTI is sitting in Port Canaveral with wings reattached and ready to put to sea? I have a hard time believing it could happen in three weeks.

Depends on whether or not Dockwise happen to have a suitable ship nearby, I suppose.

I couldn't say for certain since I don't live there, but knowing how much traffic there is over your side of the planet, I would have thought it was possible to make a 3-week deadline.. just.

..and there's no need to take the wings off. That's simply unnecessary for a trip via Cape Horn.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 05/09/2016 09:09 am
Or, if you lost your one-and-only ASDS in a storm, you could be forced to choose between splashing tens of millions of dollars worth of rockets vs delaying launches for a couple of months while you got a new one into service.

Practically speaking, you wouldn't.  You'd make one phone call to Dockwise and ask them to pick up the East Coast ASDS ASAP and bring it around in time for the next launch.  Sure, it wouldn't be cheap, but it wouldn't cost millions nor take months neither.

So, what's a reasonable estimate of the elapsed time between when you pick up the phone to call Dockwise and when JRTI is sitting in Port Canaveral with wings reattached and ready to put to sea? I have a hard time believing it could happen in three weeks.

Depends on whether or not Dockwise happen to have a suitable ship nearby, I suppose.

I couldn't say for certain since I don't live there, but knowing how much traffic there is over your side of the planet, I would have thought it was possible to make a 3-week deadline.. just.

..and there's no need to take the wings off. That's simply unnecessary for a trip via Cape Horn.

I think your point about moving an ASDS from one cost to the other in case of need is a very good one.

However, the Dockwise option would IMHO be a near-term-only; the inauguration of the Panama Canal expansion is expected next month (around June 26th), and the new lock chambers are 180 ft. wide. The ASDSs have a beam of, I think, 170 feet with wings. JRTI could (once the canal expansion is in operation) be towed to Florida in... I get 4188 nautical miles for the voyage (approximately) and at 5 knots average that's 837 hours, about 34 days. If they were in more of a hurry, hire a bigger tug to get a few extra knots. Upping the average speed to 8 knots would cut the transit time down to 22 days.     
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sewebster on 05/09/2016 08:03 pm
However, the Dockwise option would IMHO be a near-term-only; the inauguration of the Panama Canal expansion is expected next month (around June 26th), and the new lock chambers are 180 ft. wide. The ASDSs have a beam of, I think, 170 feet with wings. JRTI could (once the canal expansion is in operation) be towed to Florida in... I get 4188 nautical miles for the voyage (approximately) and at 5 knots average that's 837 hours, about 34 days. If they were in more of a hurry, hire a bigger tug to get a few extra knots. Upping the average speed to 8 knots would cut the transit time down to 22 days.   

Of course if it fits through Panama then the Dockwise option becomes a factor of three (approx?) faster too, which could be more than 8 knots by a lot I assume.

But I would expect Dockwise is not particularly inexpensive? How much would it actually cost to transport something from LA to Port Canaveral?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: bstrong on 05/09/2016 08:20 pm
I have a feeling that SpaceX isn't quite ready to have quite as many cores returned as they are currently getting.  There is additional work to be done on the F9 design until these cores are really fully reusable, and those changes will take some time to work their way through the production line.  If they were to lose their East Coast ASDS tomorrow I don't see them spending huge amounts to replace it, not yet.

I don't know. Even if most of the cores never fly again as complete units, there are ~$10M worth of engines on each one that seem to be pretty stable in design at this point. And I don't remember what the estimated value of the titanium in the octaweb was, but it was non-trivial, as well. It's worth a good bit of trouble to recover those parts, if nothing else.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sghill on 05/09/2016 08:39 pm
I found us a new webcam!

http://orlandoprincess.com/

Looks right across the harbor a the big yellow crane and unloading area!

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 05/09/2016 09:32 pm
However, the Dockwise option would IMHO be a near-term-only; the inauguration of the Panama Canal expansion is expected next month (around June 26th), and the new lock chambers are 180 ft. wide. The ASDSs have a beam of, I think, 170 feet with wings. JRTI could (once the canal expansion is in operation) be towed to Florida in... I get 4188 nautical miles for the voyage (approximately) and at 5 knots average that's 837 hours, about 34 days. If they were in more of a hurry, hire a bigger tug to get a few extra knots. Upping the average speed to 8 knots would cut the transit time down to 22 days.   

Of course if it fits through Panama then the Dockwise option becomes a factor of three (approx?) faster too, which could be more than 8 knots by a lot I assume.

But I would expect Dockwise is not particularly inexpensive? How much would it actually cost to transport something from LA to Port Canaveral?

The Dockwise ship could do 13 to 14 knots lightly laden (the ASDS is way below their max load limits) but, there's a rather large (sorry for the pun) problem; the dockwise ships won't fit through even the expanded Panama canal (the narrowest of the three ships is about 206 feet in beam), so you'd need one to deliver the ASDS to one end, a tug to take the ASDS through, and another Dockwise on the far end to pick it up. Seeing as how there are only three, that's prohibitively unlikely IMHO.

I have no idea how much Dockwise charges. Their ships cost a quarter billion or more, so I suspect they charge a lot.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/09/2016 10:04 pm
The proposal was to take advantage of the Dockwise ship's speed to take the ASDS all the way around South America.  I have no insight as to whether that's a reasonable idea or not.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/10/2016 12:17 am
The Dockwise ship could do 13 to 14 knots lightly laden (the ASDS is way below their max load limits) but, there's a rather large (sorry for the pun) problem; the dockwise ships won't fit through even the expanded Panama canal (the narrowest of the three ships is about 206 feet in beam), so you'd need one to deliver the ASDS to one end, a tug to take the ASDS through, and another Dockwise on the far end to pick it up. Seeing as how there are only three, that's prohibitively unlikely IMHO.

The proposal was to take advantage of the Dockwise ship's speed to take the ASDS all the way around South America.  I have no insight as to whether that's a reasonable idea or not.

It's perfectly reasonable.  They carted Australia's LHD hulls all the way from Spain, via Cape Horn and the Roaring Forties... and do that sort of thing every day AIUI.

They'd still pick their weather, but Cape Horn isn't the maelstrom it's made out to be every day and whilst it may still take a few weeks to get around and back up again, as CJ points out, one ASDS is way below load limits for even the smallest of their fleet (they'd probably load extra cargo - maybe a motor-yacht or two) so they'd be cruising at the top of their speed range.


I have no idea how much Dockwise charges. Their ships cost a quarter billion or more, so I suspect they charge a lot.

I can say it'd be six figures.. but it shouldn't be more than that.  Especially not given the added publicity it would generate for the carrier.  Not cheaper than towing it yourself at a snail's pace (with all of the associated risks), but still less than pulling it apart for the transit of Panama and rebuilding it again on the other side.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/10/2016 12:18 am
I bet the Panama transit, including reassembly, was less than 6 figures.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/10/2016 12:30 am
I bet the Panama transit, including reassembly, was less than 6 figures.

Cheap labour, huh?  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sewebster on 05/10/2016 03:20 am
http://www.sea-distances.org/ says 35.5 days at 15 knots to go around the Horn, by the way.

Prices you guys are talking about sound super cheap to me, but yeah, maybe cheap labour... I guess it's not, uh, rocket science...?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/10/2016 11:21 pm
Back on topic.. there's some great pics in this post on the live thread:

Mr. Trip Harriss just tweeted these aerial images by /u/EsTeEs (https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/4iqi6u/bonus_pic_my_brother_just_sent_me_of_the_spacex/).

https://twitter.com/SpaceXTrip/status/730153377389268997

It appears they fully retract the fwd thrusters, but leave the aft ones down a bit to provide some drag for the tow.

Back a couple of (okay, a few more than that!) pages it was speculated that the aft thruster being down a bit whilst alongside meant it was faulty: I don't agree.. and instead think they had more pressing things to do (like tidy up the deck) than stow the thrusters right away.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 05/11/2016 01:25 am
I don't agree.. and instead think they had more pressing things to do (like tidy up the deck) than stow the thrusters right away.
But not as much deck tidying up as two flights ago and previous.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 05/12/2016 08:36 pm
Painted an ASDS model I had in OCISLY livery
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 05/12/2016 09:02 pm
Anyone know of an existing public 3D model of an ASDS? I'd like to 3D print one.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 05/12/2016 09:55 pm
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:640008 Here is one.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 05/12/2016 11:19 pm
Cool but a bit backlevel as it doesn't have the shields
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 05/13/2016 01:45 am
Painted an ASDS model I had in OCISLY livery

That would make a nice B-Day cake with a Falcon-9 as it's candle.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: 411rocket on 05/13/2016 05:30 am
Painted an ASDS model I had in OCISLY livery

That would make a nice B-Day cake with a Falcon-9 as it's candle.

With the flame on the bottom end, maybe light up a leg or two.

F9 has hot legs, during landing.......

How long, before a real droneship heads out again, baring any slips?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/13/2016 10:30 am
Painted an ASDS model I had in OCISLY livery

That would make a nice B-Day cake with a Falcon-9 as it's candle.

With the flame on the bottom end, maybe light up a leg or two.

F9 has hot legs, during landing.......

How long, before a real droneship heads out again, baring any slips?

With the Range reportedly down until the 27th, a slip from the current NET of the 26th seems probable.

OCISLY will probably be positioned near where she was for JCSAT, so a departure 5 days in advance of launch seems likely, ie NET the 22nd.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: garcianc on 05/13/2016 04:01 pm
This may be worthy of a new thread. If so, moderators feel free to let me know. I did a quick search and have not seen this brought up. If this has already been discussed, my apologies in advance.

I am suggesting that there should be a dedicated ASDS recovery and refurbishment processing facility. This facility would allow the ASDS to float under a gantry crane, quickly offload, allowing the stage to be completely or partially refurbished in the same facility. The facility would have shops and spares to support complete or partial refurbishment of both the rocket and barge.

As an example, SpaceX could take inspiration from the Trident Refit Facility in Kings Bay, GA:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Kingsbay.jpg/1280px-Kingsbay.jpg)

Although in the case of the SpaceX facility, a roof may not be necessary.

Another visual depiction, although not exactly serving a similar purpose, is for a submarine degaussing facility:

(http://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/00/22/16/46_big.jpg)

Imagine a similar "drive-through" setup with a gantry crane that expands across the two finger piers and is able to move on tracks carrying the stage into the processing area.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 05/13/2016 04:18 pm
Cool but a bit backlevel as it doesn't have the shields
I noticed this as well, what would you reccomend to get the blast walls?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/13/2016 04:30 pm
My version:
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Barrie on 05/13/2016 04:31 pm
Painted an ASDS model I had in OCISLY livery

What this needs is a landed stage made from a toilet roll centre wrapped in sticky-backed plastic.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 05/13/2016 04:34 pm
This may be worthy of a new thread. If so, moderators feel free to let me know. I did a quick search and have not seen this brought up. If this has already been discussed, my apologies in advance.

I am suggesting that there should be a dedicated ASDS recovery and refurbishment processing facility. This facility would allow the ASDS to float under a gantry crane, quickly offload, allowing the stage to be completely or partially refurbished in the same facility. The facility would have shops and spares to support complete or partial refurbishment of both the rocket and barge.

As an example, SpaceX could take inspiration from the Trident Refit Facility in Kings Bay, GA:

Although in the case of the SpaceX facility, a roof may not be necessary.

Another visual depiction, although not exactly serving a similar purpose, is for a submarine degaussing facility:

Imagine a similar "drive-through" setup with a gantry crane that expands across the two finger piers and is able to move on tracks carrying the stage into the processing area.

I think a dedicated offloader apparatus will be forthcoming, but I think all it will do is minimal post-flight processing, leg folding, and horizontalizing...  then send it off to a land hanger like they already have...

Spending a week on each stage like this is just temporary IMO, but there's no better way of finding out what you need then doing it a few times "manually".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 05/13/2016 04:42 pm
This may be worthy of a new thread. If so, moderators feel free to let me know. I did a quick search and have not seen this brought up. If this has already been discussed, my apologies in advance.

I am suggesting that there should be a dedicated ASDS recovery and refurbishment processing facility. This facility would allow the ASDS to float under a gantry crane, quickly offload, allowing the stage to be completely or partially refurbished in the same facility. The facility would have shops and spares to support complete or partial refurbishment of both the rocket and barge.

As an example, SpaceX could take inspiration from the Trident Refit Facility in Kings Bay, GA:



There isn't room at Port Canaveral for such a facility.  Spacex is working at a shared dock. 
Also, the flight rate likely doesn't need such a facility.

The facility would have shops and spares to support complete or partial refurbishment of both the rocket and barge.

Facilties for stage refurb already exist at space port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gadgetmind on 05/13/2016 05:00 pm
What this needs is a landed stage made from a toilet roll centre wrapped in sticky-backed plastic.  ;)

Ah, clearly a fellow Brit!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 05/13/2016 08:11 pm
What this needs is a landed stage made from a toilet roll centre wrapped in sticky-backed plastic.  ;)

Ah, clearly a fellow Brit!

The models might well be something we should carve out into a separate thread into our modeling area.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 05/13/2016 08:37 pm
My version:
Did you tape a picture of OCISLY to the same model I used?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 05/14/2016 03:11 pm
I am making papercraft model
https://github.com/maximlevitsky/ASDS
Posting updates on my twitter
https://twitter.com/maximlevitsky

NSF thread about it
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37881.0
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/17/2016 11:02 pm

Jim pointed out in the fairing recovery thread that Go Searcher seems to have no specialized equipment aboard, other than a single generator/welder.  Is it really very useful as a fairing recovery ship without even a telemetry antenna or crane?  I think go searcher actually has a crane, though I don't see it in Jim's picture.  Is it possible some of the antennas above the cockpit are SpaceX equipment?  What other use might a "naked" ship be?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/17/2016 11:19 pm

Jim pointed out in the fairing recovery thread that Go Searcher seems to have no specialized equipment aboard, other than a single generator/welder.  Is it really very useful as a fairing recovery ship without even a telemetry antenna or crane?  I think go searcher actually has a crane, though I don't see it in Jim's picture.  Is it possible some of the antennas above the cockpit are SpaceX equipment?  What other use might a "naked" ship be?

IMO, Go Searcher is most likely a pure support vessel - a backup, if you like - used for transferring personnel and any gear or consumables that might be required to and from the Landing Zone, thus allowing Go Quest to be out there for extended periods, and assisting with the ASDS tow back either if the weather gets nasty or if Go Quest breaks down.

A crane on either vessel could transfer supplies.. we don't need to invent one if it isn't there.  A clear aft deck is exactly what you want under those circumstances.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 05/19/2016 08:59 pm
New image of OCISLY taken on May 16th, appear to show 25 circular holes that are new. People over on R/SpaceX think they are either hold down points or cameras
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 05/19/2016 09:11 pm
Quote
New image of OCISLY taken on May 16th, appear to show 25 circular holes that are new. People over on R/SpaceX think they are either hold down points or cameras

Look more like some sort of protrusions casting shadows.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 05/19/2016 09:31 pm
New image of OCISLY taken on May 16th, appear to show 25 circular holes that are new. People over on R/SpaceX think they are either hold down points or cameras


how about water deluge nozzles, "turtles".   

Also, the "shoes" that were going to be welded over the legs looks like they transformed into tie down brackets that are welded on.

Also I wouldn't put much into what R/SpaceX has to say.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gadgetmind on 05/19/2016 09:32 pm
Quote
New image of OCISLY taken on May 16th, appear to show 25 circular holes that are new. People over on R/SpaceX think they are either hold down points or cameras

Look more like some sort of protrusions casting shadows.

The holes/marks/whatever just inside the white circle don't look like that to me,
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 05/19/2016 09:44 pm
The project requiring those circular marks may is likely incomplete. The feeble stream from the fire fighting equipment shown in the last landing webcast added to the post landing fires are enough to make Jim's guess about turtles compelling. They look more like holes than projections to me.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 05/19/2016 09:56 pm
Quote
New image of OCISLY taken on May 16th, appear to show 25 circular holes that are new. People over on R/SpaceX think they are either hold down points or cameras

Look more like some sort of protrusions casting shadows.

The holes/marks/whatever just inside the white circle don't look like that to me,
Except every object has a light/shiny side in the direction of the sun and a slightly elongated dark feature on the opposite side in the same direction as every other shadow being cast on deck.

I also favor a new water deluge system.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/19/2016 11:03 pm
I also favor a new water deluge system.

Well.. allow me to be one who doesn't.  ;D

The amount of work involved in running pressure piping under-deck through the walls of sealed ballast tanks and through the side of the hull around below the wings structure and back through the hull and more sealed ballast tanks to connect in to the fire main system would be enormous!! Maybe they've done it sneakily whilst we weren't watching (lots of tiny little elves with gas axes and confined-space entry permits) or whilst we were watching someplace else (whilst they had the deck open to fish out that stray octaweb) ..but I do doubt it.

Cameras are a possibility, but fixing-points for guy wires to help steady a returned stage for the return journey makes more sense to me.   ..but for your sakes, I hope I'm wrong. ;)


EDIT:   FWIW, IMHO if you wanted to run a water deluge system like that, the way to do it would be to strap down to the deck a ring of 1/2" steel tube fitted with spray nozzles and connect that in above-deck, where you can access it.  Paint it black if you like, but it wouldn't be high enough to be a trip hazard (just a low bump on deck), could be easily inspected and repaired (when crushed by a stay Falcon Foot), would be far cheaper and easier to install and wouldn't compromise the integrity of the Marmac's ballast tanks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lars-J on 05/19/2016 11:12 pm
Quote
New image of OCISLY taken on May 16th, appear to show 25 circular holes that are new. People over on R/SpaceX think they are either hold down points or cameras

Look more like some sort of protrusions casting shadows.

The holes/marks/whatever just inside the white circle don't look like that to me,

If you look at the "holes" on the right, and pay attention to the the light direction, you'll see that they are protrude up from the surface instead of being holes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 05/19/2016 11:51 pm
we are what, 3 or 4 days away from OCISLY needing to depart to catch the next stage, right?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/20/2016 02:02 am
we are what, 3 or 4 days away from OCISLY needing to depart to catch the next stage, right?

Current practice seems to be departure 5 days in advance of a GTO launch. So the real question is when Thaicom-8 is scheduled to depart. If you believe the NET of the 26th, then OCISLY is NET 21st.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 05/20/2016 02:16 am
could be lights? to make the deck look cool?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 05/20/2016 02:18 am
Camera pods for a VR edit of landing footage?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/20/2016 02:26 am
could be lights? to make the deck look cool?

Camera pods for a VR edit of landing footage?

There are no visible wires, pipes or anything else running to these protrusions.  If they're electronic, they'd need to be battery-powered and remote-controlled..  Possible but highly unlikely IMO.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 05/20/2016 02:36 am
To me it looks like reflectors or lights that demarcate the landing circle in the dark. Or as others have posited that may be for 360 degree cameras like they used to film The Matrix.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 05/20/2016 02:40 am
could be lights? to make the deck look cool?

Camera pods for a VR edit of landing footage?

There are no visible wires, pipes or anything else running to these protrusions.  If they're electronic, they'd need to be battery-powered and remote-controlled..  Possible but highly unlikely IMO.

GoPro on a timer fits that bill. Lights need wires and deluge needs pipes. Any possible reason for 25 guy wires? They only use 4 on land.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 05/20/2016 03:42 am
Speculation...  ;)
Brackets to mount custom made armored video cameras pointing upward...
Little short WiFi antennas to start them all in sync...
Big enough SD card inside to let it run from liftoff... till almost out of memory...
Custom controller and software inside...
Collect them all dockside (post landing) and FedEx em to Hawthorne...
Take em apart and put all the video thru post processing and edit...
Just saying...  :D

on edit...
To add water, etc... they would likely install a raised false deck with the piping in the sandwich...
You could run alot of stuff in a 4 inch gap... done right...
Just my opinion...  :P

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 05/20/2016 05:04 am
New image of OCISLY taken on May 16th, appear to show 25 circular holes that are new. People over on R/SpaceX think they are either hold down points or cameras
Were visible on deck during CRS-8 return coverage as well.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40002.msg1520225#msg1520225
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 05/20/2016 09:29 am
New image of OCISLY taken on May 16th, appear to show 25 circular holes that are new. People over on R/SpaceX think they are either hold down points or cameras
Were visible on deck during CRS-8 return coverage as well.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40002.msg1520225#msg1520225
Yup. Definitely not new. And most decidely not part of a water deluge system.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/20/2016 10:15 am
FCC has approved SpaceX's application for radio transmissions for stage recovery operations. ASDS position for the landing attempt:

28 6 53 N
73 38 32 W

This is 11 nmi east (and a bit south) from its position for the JCSAT-14 landing, with a net increase of 10 nmi from the Cape.

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=71189&RequestTimeout=1000

Expecting Saturday evening departure based on latest launch date.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rickyramjet on 05/21/2016 09:31 pm
New image of OCISLY taken on May 16th, appear to show 25 circular holes that are new. People over on R/SpaceX think they are either hold down points or cameras
Were visible on deck during CRS-8 return coverage as well.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40002.msg1520225#msg1520225
Yup. Definitely not new. And most decidely not part of a water deluge system.
My WAG is that they are radar reflectors to help the stage zero in on OSICLY.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 05/21/2016 10:58 pm
Elsbeth III has just moved to OCISLY.
May be time for a new recovery thread.
https://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367017460
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 05/21/2016 11:33 pm
I wonder how frequently SpaceX plans on repainting OCISLY's deck?  It now bears the blast and scour marks from two recoveries in a row, pretty much erasing the "X" and wiping out about a quarter of the yellow ring.  Heck, pretty soon, we won't have a good way to determine who won landing bingo, since there won't be much paint left on the deck to calibrate the landing spot accurately...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 05/22/2016 12:19 am
Elsbeth III just notified port they are setting out to sea with OCISLY.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/22/2016 12:38 am
Elsbeth III just notified port they are setting out to sea with OCISLY.

5 days ahead of launch, right on schedule for GTO missions.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Meltro on 05/22/2016 12:41 am
I wonder how frequently SpaceX plans on repainting OCISLY's deck?  It now bears the blast and scour marks from two recoveries in a row, pretty much erasing the "X" and wiping out about a quarter of the yellow ring.  Heck, pretty soon, we won't have a good way to determine who won landing bingo, since there won't be much paint left on the deck to calibrate the landing spot accurately...

I have faith that the relentless, unceasing addicts at NSF will rise to the challenge
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 05/22/2016 01:00 am
Elsbeth III just notified port they are setting out to sea with OCISLY.
MarineTraffic.com is showing Elsbeth III just exiting Port Canaveral with OCISLY in tow. 9pm EDT
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 05/22/2016 01:40 am

New image of OCISLY taken on May 16th, appear to show 25 circular holes that are new. People over on R/SpaceX think they are either hold down points or cameras
Hate to say it, but they have been there all along. I've even commented on them in the past.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/23/2016 04:42 am
I wonder how frequently SpaceX plans on repainting OCISLY's deck?  It now bears the blast and scour marks from two recoveries in a row, pretty much erasing the "X" and wiping out about a quarter of the yellow ring.  Heck, pretty soon, we won't have a good way to determine who won landing bingo, since there won't be much paint left on the deck to calibrate the landing spot accurately...

Now that they have all the press footage they need, I'd imagine not too often. It's harder to weld on a primed & painted deck, so if you can handle a small amount of rust (most of which would be wiped back to bare metal by the exhaust anyways) I can't see why they'd bother.

..and there will always be ways to determine who won landing bingo.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 05/23/2016 01:26 pm
Could someone split the posts about the ASDS model to their own thread? I think all the information that we need to make a scale S1 for the model ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/23/2016 01:51 pm
There's (already) a modeling thread on this forum, with info on both ASDS and S1 models.  I recommend the AXM paper model of S1-with-legs-deployed, myself.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 05/23/2016 01:51 pm
The Go twins set out from Port Canaveral this morning about half an hour ago.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 05/24/2016 02:17 pm
Not sure if barges handle tropical storms well?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/24/2016 03:47 pm
Surface wind forecast at the LZ for Thursday evening: 23 knots with gusts to 31 knots.

Probably no worse than CRS-8 landing conditions were.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 05/24/2016 03:55 pm
Good... part of the landing test series needs to be... push it hard into high landing crosswinds...
CRS-8 showed it can do it... once... (lean into that wind)...  :)
Can it do it twice?... ???
Can it do it in a 60+ knot gale?...  :-\
Gotta find those envelope edges folks...  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: chalz on 05/24/2016 08:20 pm
Good... part of the landing test series needs to be... push it hard into high landing crosswinds...
CRS-8 showed it can do it... once... (lean into that wind)...  :)
Can it do it twice?... ???
Can it do it in a 60+ knot gale?...  :-\
Gotta find those envelope edges folks...  8)
I think the worry is more about what could happen on the 4-5 days it will take to get back to shore. They have operated the barge in high seas before, during the Discovr landing attempt I think, so it is not totally foreign to them.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 05/24/2016 08:26 pm
Not sure if barges handle tropical storms well?

this is a great place to see tropical development http://tropic.ssec.wisc.edu/
http://nhc.noaa.gov

and for detailed wind and shear use this link http://www.spc.noaa.gov/
http://www.spc.noaa.gov/exper/sref/ for gif sequence of Wind and shear
 :D ::) ;)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: starhawk92 on 05/25/2016 01:12 pm
I understand wind is a concern for landing -- what about rain or dropping through a thunderhead?

Could this be an ASDS Rainout?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/25/2016 01:43 pm
I expect they'll land the stage whether or not the ASDS happens to be underneath it.  It's a free test.

And the only way they'd move the ASDS is if it couldn't take the sea state (or if conditions made the tow operation hazardous to crew).  They're clearly not afraid of aiming the stage at the ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 05/25/2016 01:49 pm
I understand wind is a concern for landing -- what about rain or dropping through a thunderhead?

Could this be an ASDS Rainout?

Rain... Wind... Upper level winds overhead...
My guess is they go for it no matter what... and get whatever data it provides...

Landing in a rain squall would make for some interesting onboard (and onboat) video...  :o  ;D
If you ever landed a plane (or sim) on instruments... you would get my meaning...
Flying blind right down to the numbers is always "interesting"...  :P
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 05/25/2016 01:53 pm
We haven't seen onboard video for a while. Or did I miss it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 05/25/2016 02:01 pm
We haven't seen onboard video for a while. Or did I miss it?
My guess is the last one (flown at night) was not very interesting to see...
That is assuming it worked ok after that reentry... (lens not smoked over, etc)
One before that there was something wrong with the lens... (crack or something)
But no... no video IIRC on last one was released to public... :(
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 05/25/2016 03:24 pm
http://www.spc.noaa.gov/exper/mesoanalysis/new/archiveviewer.php?sector=18&parm=shr8#

 ;D 8) here's a nice dynamic graphic of rain potential in FL & Bahamas
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 05/27/2016 01:10 am
I'm getting a bit nervous about the potential for tropical storm development.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/will-bonnie-form-in-the-atlantic-and-impact-eastern-us-coast-during-memorial-day-weekend-rough-seas-rip-currents-heavy-rain/57683397

The graphic shows a rather large red area over OCISLY.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 05/27/2016 12:56 pm
I'm getting a bit nervous about the potential for tropical storm development.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/will-bonnie-form-in-the-atlantic-and-impact-eastern-us-coast-during-memorial-day-weekend-rough-seas-rip-currents-heavy-rain/57683397

The graphic shows a rather large red area over OCISLY.

Don't be... it's early in the season and the weather nuts (I'm one of them) are just looking for some clouds going in circles to slap a name on it. Tropical depressions are just a bunch of rain... not a ton of wind... doesn't even whip up the seas that much either. Shouldn't be an issue.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 05/27/2016 03:43 pm
http://tropic.ssec.wisc.edu/real-time/atlantic/movies/g8wvbbm/g8wvbbm_loop.html (http://tropic.ssec.wisc.edu/real-time/atlantic/movies/g8wvbbm/g8wvbbm_loop.html)
http://tropic.ssec.wisc.edu (http://tropic.ssec.wisc.edu)
try this for more detailed multichannel displays of tropical development
 8) ;D :o
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 05/27/2016 11:04 pm
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/736320322996076548
This wobbly one will sure test the crew. This is why jacks are important!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 05/27/2016 11:14 pm
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/736320322996076548
This wobbly one will sure test the crew. This is why jacks are important!

Indeed. I don't envy the recovery crews.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 05/27/2016 11:58 pm
Is that a person I see on board OCISLY during landing...  :o

Back right corner... I circled the area in red...
Go play it back at You Tube... 38:07 on or so...

Blow it up full screen and watch closely behind that yellow rail as it runs...
Maybe it's a camera on rails or something... it's moving back and forth quite a distance...  ???

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 05/28/2016 01:09 am
Is that a person I see on board OCISLY during landing...  :o

Back right corner... I circled the area in red...
Go play it back at You Tube... 38:07 on or so...

Blow it up full screen and watch closely behind that yellow rail as it runs...
Maybe it's a camera on rails or something... it's moving back and forth quite a distance...  ???
Looks to me like a tethered helium-filled mylar party balloon
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 05/28/2016 01:16 am
Is that a person I see on board OCISLY during landing...  :o

Back right corner... I circled the area in red...
Go play it back at You Tube... 38:07 on or so...

Blow it up full screen and watch closely behind that yellow rail as it runs...
Maybe it's a camera on rails or something... it's moving back and forth quite a distance...  ???

If you look at the vid after touchdown, you see a ring hanging just to the right of where that was. It's not there pre-landing, while your moving object is visible. I'm not positive, but I think it's more likely than not a lifering batting around in the wind, and the F9 landing pushed it to the other side of the rail.

I also note that the deck was wet this time, but hasn't been for some landings. Anyone have any ideas why they might wet the deck some times but not others?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 05/28/2016 01:24 am
I also note that the deck was wet this time, but hasn't been for some landings. Anyone have any ideas why they might wet the deck some times but not others?

Ask Thor. I think it might be rain....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: brettreds2k on 05/28/2016 02:40 am
Is that a person I see on board OCISLY during landing...  :o

Back right corner... I circled the area in red...
Go play it back at You Tube... 38:07 on or so...

Blow it up full screen and watch closely behind that yellow rail as it runs...
Maybe it's a camera on rails or something... it's moving back and forth quite a distance...  ???


I also note that the deck was wet this time, but hasn't been for some landings. Anyone have any ideas why they might wet the deck some times but not others?

Maybe they wet the deck for sound suppression this time or maybe to help absorb flame blowback to keep the underside from catching fire like the last 2 returns??
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 05/28/2016 04:01 am
At the moment, we appear to have an F9 of questionable stability on the ASDS. (per concerns from SpaceX that it might tip over).

So, what now? They have to put a crew aboard at some point (they need to attach the tow line if nothing else). I'm assuming they'll vent the LOX first.

I'm wondering if they have options (now or in the future) to deal with this kind of situation without putting crew aboard? Assuming the problem is one of the legs is not making full contact and thus the stage wobbles a bit, could the cherry picker be remotely controlled to place jacks, shims, etc, under the F9?

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 05/28/2016 05:56 am
Or simply put a glorified doorstop under the short leg. Kiss.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: EngrDavid on 05/28/2016 06:28 am
Maybe drive the cherry picker over to the opposite leg to the one that is slightly crushed and use it to press down on that leg with its lift basket. Once this is done, the rocket should be resting on the 3 good legs. Then get the jacks under the rocket and jack it off the legs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rickl on 05/28/2016 08:06 am

So, what now? They have to put a crew aboard at some point (they need to attach the tow line if nothing else). I'm assuming they'll vent the LOX first.


I assume the LOX would be vented immediately after landing, wouldn't it?  Just open the valve.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 05/28/2016 06:18 pm
By the way -- the onboard rocket cam view of the approach and landing clearly shows that OCISLY's deck had been freshly repainted prior to going out for this mission.  I'm not positive, but I don't think it had been repainted between CRS-8 and JCSAT.

So, of the three successful ASDS landings, all three on OCISLY, it appears they repainted the deck at least once, and perhaps twice (I can't be certain if JCSAT's core was recovered with a blast-dirtied deck).

Of course, after the first hot entry landing attempt ended in a hole in the deck, maybe SpaceX thought they would skip the paint job prior to the second hot entry attempt, since there was still a significant possibility that a hot entry would not only result in a repaint needed, but more deck plating replaced...  ???
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 05/28/2016 09:22 pm
By the way -- the onboard rocket cam view of the approach and landing clearly shows that OCISLY's deck had been freshly repainted prior to going out for this mission.  I'm not positive, but I don't think it had been repainted between CRS-8 and JCSAT.

So, of the three successful ASDS landings, all three on OCISLY, it appears they repainted the deck at least once, and perhaps twice (I can't be certain if JCSAT's core was recovered with a blast-dirtied deck).

Of course, after the first hot entry landing attempt ended in a hole in the deck, maybe SpaceX thought they would skip the paint job prior to the second hot entry attempt, since there was still a significant possibility that a hot entry would not only result in a repaint needed, but more deck plating replaced...  ???
Paint(ing) is cheap.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: chad1011 on 05/29/2016 02:13 am
If I am not mistaken, the support jacks are hydraulic. They should be able to lift the low side level.  Attached is an example from the USAF.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gadgetmind on 05/29/2016 06:59 am
That assumes the stage isn't riding so low that they can't get the jacks under.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/29/2016 11:48 am
That assumes the stage isn't riding so low that they can't get the jacks under.

Fortunately someone has already invented shorter jacks.  :)

http://tinyurl.com/jr3wmyr
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jaufgang on 05/29/2016 12:42 pm
That assumes the stage isn't riding so low that they can't get the jacks under.
The fact that this landing was said to have "used up contingency crush core" implies that this compression of the legs was within (although approaching the limits of) the design specifications. I'd expect that any jacks they have are designed to fit under the stage in the event of maximum possible compression of the crush core on all four legs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 06/02/2016 11:09 pm
As we have now seen, the F9 had a major tilt, but more worrying, moved around a great deal after landing, probably due to wobbling back and forth as the ASDS rolled (due to having one leg shorter then the others). 

My guess is that SpaceX will want to address this sort of contingency in the future, due to the risk to both the F9 and the crew that has to go aboard.

My further guess is they will desire to have a remote capability to do so (to avoid risking crew).

Therefor, I think we have an excellent opportunity to speculate as to what such a capability might look like. I think it will certainly be cheap and simple if possible.

My current guess is based on what they did to shore up the highside leg; stacked some stuff under it, approximately a foot or so thick. Therefor, my guess is that to accomplish that remotely, they could use something akin to a largish remote control toy car, pushing a solid wedge (perhaps with furniture glade plates on the bottom). The remote control car would be equipped with a drone-type camera, and housed somewhere on the ASDS (just parked in a deck corner?). Would that be enough to give the ASDS a new capability to handle this sort of contingency?   
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/02/2016 11:41 pm
I suspect that rather than invent new hardware they will just refine the procedures which seemed to work adequately in this case.  And optimize the landing software/hardware to ensure the situation doesn't arise again.

After all, that's what SpaceX did when we were busy inventing new barge hardware since landing on barges could never work without XYZ.  It turns out they didn't build XYZ they just fixed the rocket so they didn't need it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 06/03/2016 12:11 am
I agree with cscott's thought... that there is room to work on the terminal phase to avoid repeating the landing angle incident that seems (at first glance) to be root issue...

However... My opinion...  ;)
I'm thinking that changing from a crush type suspension (single acting) to a compliant one (double acting) would be a worthwhile upgrade as insurance to the next 'woops moment'...

A suspension that can absorb the impact, then rebound to a nominal height would solve the leaning tower (with walking wobble) problem seen today...

The issue is... how to do that without adding much (if any) more weight...  :-\
I'm undecided how best to do that at this time...  :P

On edit...
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40255.msg1543914#msg1543914 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40255.msg1543914#msg1543914)
Based on this L2 posting today from 'someone who would know" what changes are planned for F9...
I'm going to hope they are thinking the same thing and have a clever, lightweight solution...  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 06/03/2016 12:18 am
I suspect that rather than invent new hardware they will just refine the procedures which seemed to work adequately in this case.  And optimize the landing software/hardware to ensure the situation doesn't arise again.

After all, that's what SpaceX did when we were busy inventing new barge hardware since landing on barges could never work without XYZ.  It turns out they didn't build XYZ they just fixed the rocket so they didn't need it.

IMHO, they would not be building crush cores into the F9 legs unless they were there for a reason (contingency). It makes little sense IMHO to have those crush cores (cost and mass) if the F9 is going to be left in a very perilous (for both the f9 and the crew) state if they are used. *IF* this issue can be addressed easily and cheaply, I suspect they will do so rather than put lives, and an F9, at risk. You surely can minimize the frequency of recurrence via software tweaks, but bringing a F9 down on a deck that's changing angles will always have an element of risk regarding overloading one of the legs.

What they accomplished this time did work, but I truly do not envy the crew that had to go aboard and deal with an actively wobbling F9.

I do agree with John Allen that moving from single acting to double acting would be a better idea, but if, of course, it's feasible.  I suspect it'd be too much of a mass penalty though.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 06/03/2016 01:35 am
This has probably been discussed previously but I'll ask anyways. One of the legs was crushed during landing of the first stage. The fact that the leg crushed instead of breaking (like what happened previously) is an improvement in the design of the legs since it allows the landing to be less than perfect. Is that the gist of it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 06/03/2016 02:15 am
This has probably been discussed previously but I'll ask anyways. One of the legs was crushed during landing of the first stage. The fact that the leg crushed instead of breaking (like what happened previously) is an improvement in the design of the legs since it allows the landing to be less than perfect. Is that the gist of it?

The JASON-3 stage leg didn't break on impact, it failed to latch in the extended position after opening. That failure want due to the speed of impact.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Mongo62 on 06/03/2016 01:23 pm
This has probably been discussed previously but I'll ask anyways. One of the legs was crushed during landing of the first stage. The fact that the leg crushed instead of breaking (like what happened previously) is an improvement in the design of the legs since it allows the landing to be less than perfect. Is that the gist of it?

The leg is designed with crushable honeycomb "filler" so that in the event of a harder than intended landing, the energy would go into crushing the leg honeycomb rather than deforming the stage itself. Legs are cheap and can be easily replaced, so sacrificing one to save the stage makes good financial sense.

I am not aware of a leg breaking in the JASON-3 landing, it failed to latch due to ice buildup from the fog during launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 06/03/2016 01:54 pm
The leg is designed with crushable honeycomb "filler" so that in the event of a harder than intended landing, the energy would go into crushing the leg honeycomb rather than deforming the stage itself.  Legs are cheap and can be easily replaced, so sacrificing one to save the stage makes good financial sense.

The honeycomb "crush core" is designed to be replaced so the leg is not sacrificed.  Just the "crush core" and refurb costs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Mongo62 on 06/03/2016 02:42 pm
The leg is designed with crushable honeycomb "filler" so that in the event of a harder than intended landing, the energy would go into crushing the leg honeycomb rather than deforming the stage itself.  Legs are cheap and can be easily replaced, so sacrificing one to save the stage makes good financial sense.

The honeycomb "crush core" is designed to be replaced so the leg is not sacrificed.  Just the "crush core" and refurb costs.

Even better, then. The cost of designing and installing the crush cores has presumably already been paid for with this landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AncientU on 06/03/2016 05:15 pm
I agree with cscott's thought... that there is room to work on the terminal phase to avoid repeating the landing angle incident that seems (at first glance) to be root issue...

However... My opinion...  ;)
I'm thinking that changing from a crush type suspension (single acting) to a compliant one (double acting) would be a worthwhile upgrade as insurance to the next 'woops moment'...

A suspension that can absorb the impact, then rebound to a nominal height would solve the leaning tower (with walking wobble) problem seen today...

The issue is... how to do that without adding much (if any) more weight...  :-\
I'm undecided how best to do that at this time...  :P

On edit...
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40255.msg1543914#msg1543914 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40255.msg1543914#msg1543914)
Based on this L2 posting today from 'someone who would know" what changes are planned for F9...
I'm going to hope they are thinking the same thing and have a clever, lightweight solution...  8)

Seems to me that their existing clever, lightweight, (and passive) solution worked just fine.  Tweaks to the landing profile and split-second timing issues will continue to improve the situation, but this fall back solution probably saved a $30M stage.  Will be interesting to see what pieces are modified...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: garidan on 06/03/2016 06:18 pm
I think there was a thread where this was discussed, but I don't remeber where, so it could be I'm repeating well known opinions, sorry for this.
In my opinion, the most usefull aspect to work on is to speed up recovery operations. A "traditional" and faster (long) support ship with an high enough crane could meet the recovery drone ship while still far in the sea, take the stage and let remove the legs and secure it while still out of the port and on the way to it.
The drone ship would be ready faster to get another launch. It could get the fuel form this support ship and avoid going to the port for a long time.
To enter the port the support ship would not need a special permission, because the stage would be already secured and explosives deactivated.
And the crane of the support ship could be enough to lift the stage and put it on land for a truck to drive away.
All is needed is a faster and easier to use system to hook the stage on the top, and another system to use a single crane (and two indipendent wires) to bring the stage from vertical to horizontal.
I think this is all at hand, and repays itself quickly, at this or higher rate og flights.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 06/03/2016 06:32 pm
Could be a good splinter thread for the legs element? Someone feel free to set that up! :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/03/2016 06:52 pm

I think this is all at hand, and repays itself quickly, at this or higher rate og flights.

Not really.  How can it save money?  You are only incurring more costs.  Bigger barge, larger crew to accommodate.  There is no need to speed up the process. The existing system works, there is no need to move the work out on to the barge.  The barge can go out just as fast.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JasonAW3 on 06/03/2016 07:08 pm

I think this is all at hand, and repays itself quickly, at this or higher rate og flights.

Not really.  How can it save money?  You are only incurring more costs.  Bigger barge, larger crew to accommodate.  There is no need to speed up the process. The existing system works, there is no need to move the work out on to the barge.  The barge can go out just as fast.

On the other hand, were they to go with a similarly sized SWATH hulled barge, it would provide both better station keeping ability as well as a more stable landing platform.

Adding to the size or additional facilities at this stage?  Jim's right on that point.  The current basic configuration works best. 

The addition of a ratcheting system of a pair of pontoons, that would be submerged, lifting the barge out of the water, would reduce the stability issues of higher sea states, as well as reduce the influence of surface currents.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 06/03/2016 07:46 pm
In my opinion, the most usefull aspect to work on is to speed up recovery operations. A "traditional" and faster (long) support ship with an high enough crane could meet the recovery drone ship while still far

There is not much value in chasing a faster recovery operation other than to free up the ASDS.  If you are launching at a rate that requires the ASDS freed up earlier, you build another ASDS. 

Everything else shouldn't matter because you are launching next out of inventory, not the last stage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: WizZifnab on 06/04/2016 05:20 am

I think this is all at hand, and repays itself quickly, at this or higher rate og flights.

Not really.  How can it save money?  You are only incurring more costs.  Bigger barge, larger crew to accommodate.  There is no need to speed up the process. The existing system works, there is no need to move the work out on to the barge.  The barge can go out just as fast.
I couldn't say whether the suggestions made would actually save money, but I also wouldn't say there is no value in speeding up the process.  There may not be any relaunch cadence pressure to speed things up.  However, process optimization could save costs.  Not worrying about those costs might be acceptable if you are just passing those costs onto someone else (plus whatever padding you could add on top of that...no lost opportunity to milk the cow).  That's not the case for SpaceX here.

I'd expect that some optimization that doesn't compromise safety will occur over time.  There are some costs per day involved.  The cost per day could be reduced or the number of days can be reduced.  I'm sure its a balance of many factors.  Also, there is clearly a skill to the process that will develop as well, given this is a new activity that's not exactly been done before.  Some process change too soon can also detract from efficiencies gained naturally from repetition/learning on the current process.

So in short, I'd guess that over time we'll see some process improvement.  Exactly what those process improvements look like, we'll see.  Seems likely it'll get faster.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kaputnik on 06/04/2016 06:04 am
I think there was a thread where this was discussed, but I don't remeber where, so it could be I'm repeating well known opinions, sorry for this.
In my opinion, the most usefull aspect to work on is to speed up recovery operations. A "traditional" and faster (long) support ship with an high enough crane could meet the recovery drone ship while still far in the sea, take the stage and let remove the legs and secure it while still out of the port and on the way to it.
The drone ship would be ready faster to get another launch. It could get the fuel form this support ship and avoid going to the port for a long time.
To enter the port the support ship would not need a special permission, because the stage would be already secured and explosives deactivated.
And the crane of the support ship could be enough to lift the stage and put it on land for a truck to drive away.
All is needed is a faster and easier to use system to hook the stage on the top, and another system to use a single crane (and two indipendent wires) to bring the stage from vertical to horizontal.
I think this is all at hand, and repays itself quickly, at this or higher rate og flights.

Nobody is going to crane something the size of F9 from one ship to another out in the ocean. I'm not saying the sea state would *always* prevent it, but the odds would be hugely against you, and the risks would be way too high.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 06/05/2016 04:09 am
I think there was a thread where this was discussed, but I don't remeber where, so it could be I'm repeating well known opinions, sorry for this.
In my opinion, the most usefull aspect to work on is to speed up recovery operations. A "traditional" and faster (long) support ship with an high enough crane could meet the recovery drone ship while still far in the sea, take the stage and let remove the legs and secure it while still out of the port and on the way to it.
The drone ship would be ready faster to get another launch. It could get the fuel form this support ship and avoid going to the port for a long time.
To enter the port the support ship would not need a special permission, because the stage would be already secured and explosives deactivated.
And the crane of the support ship could be enough to lift the stage and put it on land for a truck to drive away.
All is needed is a faster and easier to use system to hook the stage on the top, and another system to use a single crane (and two indipendent wires) to bring the stage from vertical to horizontal.
I think this is all at hand, and repays itself quickly, at this or higher rate og flights.

Nobody is going to crane something the size of F9 from one ship to another out in the ocean. I'm not saying the sea state would *always* prevent it, but the odds would be hugely against you, and the risks would be way too high.
The offshore energy industry (oil, gas, wind) cranes large objects around offshore all the time.   If SpaceX needs to do it, the necessary technology (large  motion-compensating stabilized cranes and platforms) is available.   Human-rated, even.  But I think it's unlikely to be necessary unless their launch rate picks up substantially.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 06/06/2016 10:14 am
I don't see the 7-10 days from launch to the stage arriving back at the Cape being an issue as long as there is a buffer of sufficient new and refurbished cores waiting to launch.

The cost of a ship with a crane capable of lifting stages at sea would be very substantial and I don't see the couple of days potentially saved having any financial benefit.

The current 'low technology' system seems to be working fine, so I don't see it changing unless there are repeated issues with stages falling over on the barge - in which case there may be a benefit in lifting them horizontal before they can damage themselves.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 06/06/2016 10:21 am
The cost of a ship with a crane capable of lifting stages at sea would be very substantial and I don't see the couple of days potentially saved having any financial benefit.

They would not do it to save a few days to return the stage. They might do it to have the barge on station for a fast launch cadence. Depends on what is cheaper, another barge or the ship fetching the stage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 06/06/2016 04:51 pm
So, to get back to the topic of this ASDS... the next Falcon 9 is now scheduled for lift-off in eight days.  It takes what, five days for the ASDS to get on station for a GTO launch, right?

So, anyone seeing any indications that OCISLY will be ready to sail again in another three or four days?  I imagine they need to refill the diesel tanks, remove the welded blocks from where they had the last stage tied down, repaint the deck, etc.

I know everyone who's gone past Fishlips in the last week has been focusing on the status of the returned stage, but has anyone noticed the kind of activity on OCISLY that would indicate it will indeed be ready to sail in the next few days?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 06/06/2016 04:53 pm
Tangentially, any sign of any NOTAMs yet that might give a hint as to where exactly they will position this one?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 06/06/2016 05:01 pm
I don't see the 7-10 days from launch to the stage arriving back at the Cape being an issue as long as there is a buffer of sufficient new and refurbished cores waiting to launch.

The cost of a ship with a crane capable of lifting stages at sea would be very substantial and I don't see the couple of days potentially saved having any financial benefit.

The current 'low technology' system seems to be working fine, so I don't see it changing unless there are repeated issues with stages falling over on the barge - in which case there may be a benefit in lifting them horizontal before they can damage themselves.

For high energy missions it takes 4-5 days for the trip out, 4-5 days for the trip back, plus some turnaround time dockside. Even for low energy orbits it's still a minimum 1-week cycle per ASDS. If there's a launch every couple days they will need some more ASDSes. Or some way to leave them on-station and shuttle the cores home.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 06/06/2016 05:19 pm
I don't see the 7-10 days from launch to the stage arriving back at the Cape being an issue as long as there is a buffer of sufficient new and refurbished cores waiting to launch.

The cost of a ship with a crane capable of lifting stages at sea would be very substantial and I don't see the couple of days potentially saved having any financial benefit.

The current 'low technology' system seems to be working fine, so I don't see it changing unless there are repeated issues with stages falling over on the barge - in which case there may be a benefit in lifting them horizontal before they can damage themselves.

For high energy missions it takes 4-5 days for the trip out, 4-5 days for the trip back, plus some turnaround time dockside. Even for low energy orbits it's still a minimum 1-week cycle per ASDS. If there's a launch every couple days they will need some more ASDSes. Or some way to leave them on-station and shuttle the cores home.

At the moment, it appears SpaceX can support a launch to GTO every two weeks, max.  And a launch every two weeks is pretty much the fastest cadence I think we can expect right now, total -- mixing in Vandenberg launches and RTLS launches.  Which means that, for right now, it appears one ASDS will handle the traffic (if barely, as in the situation right now, when we are looking at two launches to GTO barely more than two weeks apart).

If SpaceX gets to where their launch cadence exceeds once every two weeks, we'll see a change -- likely the building of another ASDS.  But looking at the manifest, I just can't see a need for a higher launch cadence, at least for now.

But, I bet they have a plan for when their cadence goes up...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 06/06/2016 06:09 pm
I don't see the 7-10 days from launch to the stage arriving back at the Cape being an issue as long as there is a buffer of sufficient new and refurbished cores waiting to launch.

The cost of a ship with a crane capable of lifting stages at sea would be very substantial and I don't see the couple of days potentially saved having any financial benefit.

The current 'low technology' system seems to be working fine, so I don't see it changing unless there are repeated issues with stages falling over on the barge - in which case there may be a benefit in lifting them horizontal before they can damage themselves.

For high energy missions it takes 4-5 days for the trip out, 4-5 days for the trip back, plus some turnaround time dockside. Even for low energy orbits it's still a minimum 1-week cycle per ASDS. If there's a launch every couple days they will need some more ASDSes. Or some way to leave them on-station and shuttle the cores home.

At the moment, it appears SpaceX can support a launch to GTO every two weeks, max.  And a launch very two weeks is pretty much the fastest cadence I think we can expect right now, total -- mixing in Vandenberg launches and RTLS launches.  Which means that, for right now, it appears one ASDS will handle the traffic (if barely, as in the situation right now, when we are looking at two launches to GTO barely more than two weeks apart).

If SpaceX gets to where their launch cadence exceeds once every two weeks, we'll see a change -- likely the building of another ASDS.  But looking at the manifest, I just can't see a need for a higher launch cadence, at least for now.

But, I bet they have a plan for when their cadence goes up...

I agree they have a plan for times when the schedule is too busy for one ASDS to handle. What it is, I don't know, but I have a guess; use the ASDS from the west coast (which gets very little use.). SpaceX could look at its schedule, see that it needs an extra ASDS for a few weeks, and just tow JRTI from California to Florida. The tow time would be about 28 days via the Panama Canal.

This would only be an interim solution for occasional times of busy schedule, and only work if the West Coast ASDS was not busy, but it'd be an option until flight rates are consistently higher than one ASDS can handle. I ought to add that it's never been an option before, and isn't now, due to the ASDS being too wide for the Panama Canal locks, but that's only true until the Panama Canal expansion opens (near the end of this month).



Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OpelGT on 06/07/2016 07:01 am
the next Falcon 9 is now scheduled for lift-off in eight days. 
It takes what, five days for the ASDS to get on station for a GTO launch, right?

So, anyone seeing any indications that OCISLY will be ready to sail again in another three or four days?
I imagine they need to refill the diesel tanks, remove the welded blocks from where they had the last stage tied down, repaint the deck, etc.

Since it was a successful landing, I'd assume they don't have a lot of repairs to do.
So it's comes down to whether they're going to repaint the landing pad, not necessary but they usually do.

I found a video showing them working on OCISLY after some bad landings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anm7aBAKDRE?t=1240 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anm7aBAKDRE?t=1240)
and it looked like they painted the logo from scratch in about 9 hours,
plus maybe a day if they repaint the deck black before doing the logo.

If they're short on time they could always just touch up the paint and take her out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 06/07/2016 07:20 am
the next Falcon 9 is now scheduled for lift-off in eight days. 
It takes what, five days for the ASDS to get on station for a GTO launch, right?

So, anyone seeing any indications that OCISLY will be ready to sail again in another three or four days?
I imagine they need to refill the diesel tanks, remove the welded blocks from where they had the last stage tied down, repaint the deck, etc.

Since it was a successful landing, I'd assume they don't have a lot of repairs to do.
So it's comes down to whether they're going to repaint the landing pad, not necessary but they usually do.

I found a video showing them working on OCISLY after some bad landings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anm7aBAKDRE?t=1240 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anm7aBAKDRE?t=1240)
and it looked like they painted the logo from scratch in about 9 hours,
plus maybe a day if they repaint the deck black before doing the logo.

If they're short on time they could always just touch up the paint and take her out.

That's actually quite a bit of work and cost for a logo, so I'm wondering if they'll always do it for every mission? It'll be interesting to see if they do it this time.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hankelow8 on 06/07/2016 07:33 am
What happens if they have a high energy crash onto OCISLY, difficult to see them completing repairs in time now the launch schedule is down to around  2 weeks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 06/07/2016 11:58 am
What happens if they have a high energy crash onto OCISLY, difficult to see them completing repairs in time now the launch schedule is down to around  2 weeks.
Simple. They forego recovery experiments for the next flight. Revenue and customer satisfaction matters more than experiments at this point.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hankelow8 on 06/07/2016 12:11 pm
Agree, customers come first.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 06/07/2016 12:23 pm
Since it was a successful landing, I'd assume they don't have a lot of repairs to do.
So it's comes down to whether they're going to repaint the landing pad, not necessary but they usually do.

I found a video showing them working on OCISLY after some bad landings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anm7aBAKDRE?t=1240 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anm7aBAKDRE?t=1240)
and it looked like they painted the logo from scratch in about 9 hours,
plus maybe a day if they repaint the deck black before doing the logo.

If they're short on time they could always just touch up the paint and take her out.

Please point out where you see them paint the deck black and repaint the logo in this video.
The only time I see the deck black is after JRtI left and when OCISLY first arrived, around 20:40~21:18, as per the video description.

This was NOT a repaint after sustaining damage, but rather the initial painting of OCISLY before entering service as an ASDS !
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Garrett on 06/07/2016 12:36 pm
It would seem to me that a lot of recent discussions recently on how SpaceX intends to improve its ASDS operations have forgotten this comment from Elon a while back

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/536263260056850432
Quote
Elon Musk @elonmusk
Base is 300 ft by 100 ft, with wings that extend width to 170 ft. Will allow refuel & rocket flyback in future
22 Nov 2014
Emphasis mine.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/07/2016 01:07 pm
FCC transmitter permit application for the next mission:

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=71187&RequestTimeout=1000

ASDS position coordinates are the same as for Thaicom 8, so it looks like SpaceX has found the "sweet spot" for GTO mission landing attempts.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 06/07/2016 01:24 pm
It would seem to me that a lot of recent discussions recently on how SpaceX intends to improve its ASDS operations have forgotten this comment from Elon a while back

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/536263260056850432
Quote
Elon Musk @elonmusk
Base is 300 ft by 100 ft, with wings that extend width to 170 ft. Will allow refuel & rocket flyback in future
22 Nov 2014
Emphasis mine.

Flyback was discussed extensively in this thread. There are a number of challenges to doing flyback, and it's probably quite far in the future yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: symbios on 06/07/2016 01:30 pm
It would seem to me that a lot of recent discussions recently on how SpaceX intends to improve its ASDS operations have forgotten this comment from Elon a while back

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/536263260056850432
Quote
Elon Musk @elonmusk
Base is 300 ft by 100 ft, with wings that extend width to 170 ft. Will allow refuel & rocket flyback in future
22 Nov 2014
Emphasis mine.

I think you have to put the emphasis on future in this statement as in many years away.

There is many things that will have to go right for this to come true, sustained stable re-flight, regulatory, prolonged keep-out zones, automated refueling etc. etc. etc...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cuddihy on 06/07/2016 01:40 pm
It would seem to me that a lot of recent discussions recently on how SpaceX intends to improve its ASDS operations have forgotten this comment from Elon a while back

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/536263260056850432
Quote
Elon Musk @elonmusk
Base is 300 ft by 100 ft, with wings that extend width to 170 ft. Will allow refuel & rocket flyback in future
22 Nov 2014
Emphasis mine.

Flyback was discussed extensively in this thread. There are a number of challenges to doing flyback, and it's probably quite far in the future yet.

Yes, but since:

ASDS position coordinates are the same as for Thaicom 8, so it looks like SpaceX has found the "sweet spot" for GTO mission landing attempts.

Perhaps a larger, more capable structure that doesn't have to be as mobile could be emplaced at the sweet spot.

Maybe a bigger ASDS that could also service MCT...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/07/2016 01:42 pm


I agree they have a plan for times when the schedule is too busy for one ASDS to handle. What it is, I don't know, but I have a guess; use the ASDS from the west coast (which gets very little use.). SpaceX could look at its schedule, see that it needs an extra ASDS for a few weeks, and just tow JRTI from California to Florida. The tow time would be about 28 days via the Panama Canal.

This would only be an interim solution for occasional times of busy schedule, and only work if the West Coast ASDS was not busy, but it'd be an option until flight rates are consistently higher than one ASDS can handle. I ought to add that it's never been an option before, and isn't now, due to the ASDS being too wide for the Panama Canal locks, but that's only true until the Panama Canal expansion opens (near the end of this month).

I think you are underestimating the amount of time needed to transit the canal, including scheduling delays and canal bureaucracy.  Especially when the new locks are newly-opened (for the rest of this year) I'd expect a good deal of unpredictable delay as the canal authority ramps up and does initial operations debugging, etc.

OTOH, your point about the new locks is a good one: it's possible that the new locks could make the transit "cheap enough" (in labor and time) to make a temporary transit worth it.

Still: If I had to place a bet, I'd wager that JRtI never leaves the Pacific.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: eweilow on 06/07/2016 03:36 pm
FCC transmitter permit application for the next mission:

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=71187&RequestTimeout=1000

ASDS position coordinates are the same as for Thaicom 8, so it looks like SpaceX has found the "sweet spot" for GTO mission landing attempts.
Does that then mean that OCISLY will be heading out to sea on what... Thursday the 9th?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/07/2016 04:55 pm
Quote
Does that then mean that OCISLY will be heading out to sea on what... Thursday the 9th?

Departure 5 days before launch has been standard practice for the last several GTO missions. So yes, Thursday morning departure seems likely.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 06/07/2016 08:40 pm
In the permit application I see 2 types of device;

The Myers unit is a high powered WiFi antenna, likely for the cameras.

The Quasonix unit then must be the "TC uplink," which is what - an uplink to the launcher, a satellite, the ships or ??
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/07/2016 08:53 pm
In the permit application I see 2 types of device;

The Myers unit is a high powered WiFi antenna, likely for the cameras.

The Quasonix unit then must be the "TC uplink," which is what - an uplink to the launcher, a satellite, the ships or ??

We have speculated that the the Quasonix transmitter(s) are for remote safing of the stage after landing, via a transmitter from one of the ships for sea landings, or from the Cape after RTLS landings. Also, presumably they test the "safing" command link from the pad before launch.

That would explain the two Quasonix transmitters (one at the pad, one on the ship).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 06/07/2016 09:02 pm
Seems either the stage or ASDS box would be line of sight and a similar range. Couldn't that be done via the stages telemetry box?  If so, then?? Stage to ASDS comms has been poo-poo'ed but if not that, what? "Television Camera" satellite uplink?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/07/2016 09:09 pm
Seems either the stage or ASDS box would be line of sight and a similar range. Couldn't that be done via the stages telemetry box?  If so, then?? Stage to ASDS comms has been poo-poo'ed but if not that, what? "Television Camera" satellite uplink?

Not sure I understand your question. Can you rephrase please?

As for stage to ASDS comms, there isn't any mention of transmitting from the stage in this permit (which is for recovery ops only; flight transmissions are covered in a different permit.)

Also remember the commercial marine VSAT antennas on both the ASDS and Go Quest for satellite uplink of video, etc, which would need no special FCC permission and thus don't need mention in this application.

If the Myers transmitter is indeed the 1W box on the ASDS for wireless camera feeds sent through it to the VSAT satellite uplink, that would make sense.

Which leaves the two Quasonix transmitters for remote safing, one at the pad and one on GO Quest.

(PS...the "TC" abbreviation in the application may be short for "telecommand" uplink, ie from ground/ship to stage after landing, for remote safing.)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommand
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Engineering_Technology/Onboard_Computer_and_Data_Handling/Telemetry_Telecommand
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 06/07/2016 10:03 pm


I agree they have a plan for times when the schedule is too busy for one ASDS to handle. What it is, I don't know, but I have a guess; use the ASDS from the west coast (which gets very little use.). SpaceX could look at its schedule, see that it needs an extra ASDS for a few weeks, and just tow JRTI from California to Florida. The tow time would be about 28 days via the Panama Canal.

This would only be an interim solution for occasional times of busy schedule, and only work if the West Coast ASDS was not busy, but it'd be an option until flight rates are consistently higher than one ASDS can handle. I ought to add that it's never been an option before, and isn't now, due to the ASDS being too wide for the Panama Canal locks, but that's only true until the Panama Canal expansion opens (near the end of this month).

I think you are underestimating the amount of time needed to transit the canal, including scheduling delays and canal bureaucracy.  Especially when the new locks are newly-opened (for the rest of this year) I'd expect a good deal of unpredictable delay as the canal authority ramps up and does initial operations debugging, etc.

OTOH, your point about the new locks is a good one: it's possible that the new locks could make the transit "cheap enough" (in labor and time) to make a temporary transit worth it.

Still: If I had to place a bet, I'd wager that JRtI never leaves the Pacific.

I'm assuming (always a dangerous thing) that the rules for the enlarged locks will be the same as for the current locks (which will remain); you can get expedited, no-wait transit via paying an extra fee. Worth it, if you're in a hurry (I've been on ships that have done it). You're probably right regarding debugging the new locks, but I suspect that'll be largely behind them by fall. For transit, you'll still have to wait for a grouping going your way (they use a convoy system for the cut, etc), but that's a few hours, not days.
I also based my voyage on 6 knots max, though there are reports that JRTI was seen at 7 off Mexico, where it'd also be dealing with an oncoming current. 

My hypothetical scenario was SpaceX, now with two pads at the Cape, plus some processing improvements, finds itself looking at a launch a week for several weeks (none with RTLS margins),  but nothing out of Vandenburg. In such a case, they might decide to move JRTI to the Cape. Or, for the first FH launch (Assuming that's out of the cape). Doing so might be preferable to losing a core or delaying some launches. I was assuming that JRTI had a dedicated tug (Rhea) so the cost of moving would be minimal (basically just fuel), but apparently I was wrong because Rhea if off Panama right now.

My further guess is that, long term, the solution will be a few ASDS V 1.1; an improved ASDS (based on lessons learned operationally) that are owned hulls, have some of what's currently above deck (fuel cells, electronics boxes) below decks, and are perhaps slightly longer (to allow duel FH landings). And, perhaps, self-propelled and capable of trailing the support ship.



Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 06/07/2016 10:23 pm
My further guess is that, long term, the solution will be a few ASDS V 1.1; an improved ASDS (based on lessons learned operationally) that are owned hulls, have some of what's currently above deck (fuel cells, electronics boxes) below decks, and are perhaps slightly longer (to allow duel FH landings). And, perhaps, self-propelled and capable of trailing the support ship.

I feel Self-Propelled and Dual Landings will not be considered because you never want to risk blowing up more stuff than necessary.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 06/07/2016 10:40 pm
My further guess is that, long term, the solution will be a few ASDS V 1.1; an improved ASDS (based on lessons learned operationally) that are owned hulls, have some of what's currently above deck (fuel cells, electronics boxes) below decks, and are perhaps slightly longer (to allow duel FH landings). And, perhaps, self-propelled and capable of trailing the support ship.

I feel Self-Propelled and Dual Landings will not be considered because you never want to risk blowing up more stuff than necessary.
That and the boosters will likely RTLS as they will separate low and slow.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 06/07/2016 11:48 pm
My further guess is that, long term, the solution will be a few ASDS V 1.1; an improved ASDS (based on lessons learned operationally) that are owned hulls, have some of what's currently above deck (fuel cells, electronics boxes) below decks, and are perhaps slightly longer (to allow duel FH landings). And, perhaps, self-propelled and capable of trailing the support ship.

I feel Self-Propelled and Dual Landings will not be considered because you never want to risk blowing up more stuff than necessary.

IMHO, you have an excellent point on dual landings and the risk factors, so I happily concede that point. 

I don't see the connection regarding self-propelled? How would that be placing anything more at risk (anything more than otherwise is)? The only things keeping the current ASDSs from being self propelled are limited fuel bunkerage and, perhaps, safety regs.  The later could, theoretically, be worked around via having a single crewman aboard for port and transit, equipped with a joysitick controller. No extra engines or drivetrain needed; if I'm reading the specs on those thrustmasters correctly, the four of them would provide sufficient thrust. You'd still need a support ship, but this would spare them the tug costs. (or... build a support ship out of a tug, so it could do both jobs).

I think I also goofed in calling the next generation of ASDS V 1.1; one reflection, the current ASDS are upgrades from the original (bow walls, blast walls, etc) so those would be V 1.1,  so maybe a next generation would be V 1.2.

That and the boosters will likely RTLS as they will separate low and slow.

That's a very good point for the first FH launch, though for later launches, it would probably (IMHO) depend on the payload and mission requirements.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 06/08/2016 01:05 am
I feel Self-Propelled and Dual Landings will not be considered because you never want to risk blowing up more stuff than necessary.

IMHO, you have an excellent point on dual landings and the risk factors, so I happily concede that point. 

I don't see the connection regarding self-propelled? How would that be placing anything more at risk (anything more than otherwise is)? The only things keeping the current ASDSs from being self propelled are limited fuel bunkerage and, perhaps, safety regs.

That fuel bunkerage was what I was thinking about.  Right now they just have to fuel generators.  I strongly suspect the landings are now good enough that you can begin to discount the idea of a catastrophic lawn dart scenario.  However, given SpaceX bare bones approach to many of these decisions, I suspect they are happy with the tug setup.



Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/08/2016 02:20 am


Still: If I had to place a bet, I'd wager that JRtI never leaves the Pacific.

I'm assuming (always a dangerous thing) that the rules for the enlarged locks will be the same as for the current locks (which will remain); you can get expedited, no-wait transit via paying an extra fee.

Just-in-time transits are limited to one per day in each direction, and there's a daily auction for the price.  You need to win the auction to take advantage of it.  Regular transit delays have been four to eight days.

I just don't think the timing is going to work out to make this useful.  FH will be tested in Dec with two or thee core RTLS. 

We've also looked hard for any sign there would be a near-term addition to the ASDS fleet, and have not found any evidence.  We know where all of the MARMACs are.

Again, if I were to bet: the fleet stays the same size and on the same coasts until the end of 2016.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 06/08/2016 05:16 am
I think I also goofed in calling the next generation of ASDS V 1.1; one reflection, the current ASDS are upgrades from the original (bow walls, blast walls, etc) so those would be V 1.1,  so maybe a next generation would be V 1.2.

Why do you think it would be V1.2? Especially if they make it capable of self-propulsion to the landing site, it would very clearly be called the ASDS Full Thrust.  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: darkenfast on 06/08/2016 10:08 am
I think the information that we are missing is: what does it cost to lease, modify and outfit a Marmac-300 (or similar) barge?  As ships of their tonnage go, they are pretty cheap, but it is still a good bit of money by the time it's in service as an ASDS.  I think they will eventually need a second one on the East Coast if they are as successful as they expect to be.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/08/2016 12:14 pm
Darkenfast: not *quite* that simple: the existing MARMAC barges are all in use, as far as we can tell.  To make another ASDS, it may [*] be necessary either to have another one built from scratch (or convince someone else to build it, if they want to continue to lease not own), or else create a new "class" of ASDS based on another barge type.  And if they make another class, they have to account for the ongoing operations impact of having multiple types of ASDS.  They also have to weigh the opportunity cost of building another right now *before* any lessons learned (from FH, for instance).  Any changes they make to the ASDS platform have to be multiplied across all the ships in their fleet.

And you left out ongoing operations costs, once the ASDS is outfitted.  That may include lease of additional support ships, as well as the costs to have your metal and electronics continue to be submerged in/exposed to corrosive salt water day after day.  Boats leak money as long as they are in or near the water.


[*] There are two MARMACs which aren't ASDSes.  One of them (MARMAC 300) is the former JRtI; our assumption was that there is some good reason it was decommissioned and replaced, like hull weakness or some such, so it's not likely to ever be reconstituted as an ASDS.  The other one we are watching, but has just been refitted for another non-SpaceX job so is unlikely to become an ASDS in the near term, although it's possible it might get another chance after its current job is done.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 06/08/2016 12:48 pm
Surely there must be other likely barges that could be used? Or are barges this size (or larger) a rarity?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/08/2016 01:51 pm
Darkenfast: not *quite* that simple: the existing MARMAC barges are all in use, as far as we can tell.  To make another ASDS, it may [*] be necessary either to have another one built from scratch (or convince someone else to build it, if they want to continue to lease not own), or else create a new "class" of ASDS based on another barge type.  And if they make another class, they have to account for the ongoing operations impact of having multiple types of ASDS.  They also have to weigh the opportunity cost of building another right now *before* any lessons learned (from FH, for instance).  Any changes they make to the ASDS platform have to be multiplied across all the ships in their fleet.

And you left out ongoing operations costs, once the ASDS is outfitted.  That may include lease of additional support ships, as well as the costs to have your metal and electronics continue to be submerged in/exposed to corrosive salt water day after day.  Boats leak money as long as they are in or near the water.


[*] There are two MARMACs which aren't ASDSes.  One of them (MARMAC 300) is the former JRtI; our assumption was that there is some good reason it was decommissioned and replaced, like hull weakness or some such, so it's not likely to ever be reconstituted as an ASDS.  The other one we are watching, but has just been refitted for another non-SpaceX job so is unlikely to become an ASDS in the near term, although it's possible it might get another chance after its current job is done.
I don't think ASDS duty is more difficult on a barge.  In fact it is probably lighter, since the barge is barely loaded.  (Though it dies make oceanic trips).

The main reason they switched barges is that they did a "make before break".

Also if the operator had 3 barges, and 2 of them have been taken away on a semi permanent basis, I'd expect the operator to commission at least one more...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 06/08/2016 03:13 pm
Has anyone tried just straight up contacting Marmac and asking them?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/08/2016 03:29 pm
Has anyone tried just straight up contacting Marmac and asking them?

Ummm....yes, some time ago. My source at McDonough Marine told me they are not currently building/refitting any more ASDS barges for SpaceX and he doesn't know of anyone in their area near New Orleans who is, though he mentioned Weeks Marine as having the capacity to do so.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1523336#msg1523336

He did opine that at some point SpaceX *might* want to build/refit their own barge, and that it would take maybe 5-7 months for a refit, or 12 months for a ground-up build, but he has no knowledge of any such plans.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 06/08/2016 03:48 pm
I remember that conversation, Kabloona! very useful.

I neglected to say "ask them what" ...  Oops! Sorry..

I meant ask Marmac how much they would charge to build a barge similar spec'ed, undiscounted, to a customer with cash that walked in off the street... that would give us a cost ceiling for that bit. Or ask what the lease rate for same is, undiscounted...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/08/2016 04:00 pm
I don't think ASDS duty is more difficult on a barge.  In fact it is probably lighter, since the barge is barely loaded.  (Though it dies make oceanic trips).

The main reason they switched barges is that they did a "make before break".

Also if the operator had 3 barges, and 2 of them have been taken away on a semi permanent basis, I'd expect the operator to commission at least one more...


Hm, inaccuracies here.  First, the operator has four equivalent barges, not three.  MARMAC 300, 302, 303, and 304.  In addition, MARMAC 301 has the same deck area but a deck about half as thick, judging from the deck loading.  See:

http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/pdf/ocean-barge-fleet-a.pdf

As Kabloona says, he looked into it and there is no evidence another barge is being commissioned by McDonough Marine.  If they built another, it would show up here:

http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/recent-news.html

Second, do you have any evidence for your "make before break" assertion?  You seem to be stating a personal theory as a fact. That theory seems quite questionable from the construction timeline. And it misses the point in any case: the question is, "why break at all?"

I don't know what you mean by "I don't think ASDS duty is more difficult on a barge." It appears that MARMAC 300 had some unsuitability for continued use as an ASDS.  That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with its ASDS operations, a defect could have been discovered that was incurred in its earlier non-ASDS service.  MARMAC 300 was also the prototype for its class; the McDonough Marine news page hints that subsequent MARMACs might have been built with "increased side shell strength".  For whatever reason, MARMAC 300 was a fully-operational ASDS that was then taken out of service at quite a significant cost in time and money.  I don't expect to see it return to the ASDS fleet.  You are welcome to a different opinion.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/08/2016 04:02 pm
I remember that conversation, Kabloona! very useful.

I neglected to say "ask them what" ...  Oops! Sorry..

I meant ask Marmac how much they would charge to build a barge similar spec'ed, undiscounted, to a customer with cash that walked in off the street... that would give us a cost ceiling for that bit. Or ask what the lease rate for same is, undiscounted...

Sorry, missed the original question. Will see if I can find that out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gospacex on 06/08/2016 04:32 pm
Marmac 400 also exists. As its name suggests, it is 400' long.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 06/08/2016 04:43 pm
we need to deploy that against the powerboaters that keep wandering into the launch exclusion zone. That thing looks wicked!

(it's actually just a dredge I think? but wow)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/08/2016 05:22 pm
I don't think ASDS duty is more difficult on a barge.  In fact it is probably lighter, since the barge is barely loaded.  (Though it dies make oceanic trips).

The main reason they switched barges is that they did a "make before break".

Also if the operator had 3 barges, and 2 of them have been taken away on a semi permanent basis, I'd expect the operator to commission at least one more...


Hm, inaccuracies here.  First, the operator has four equivalent barges, not three.  MARMAC 300, 302, 303, and 304.  In addition, MARMAC 301 has the same deck area but a deck about half as thick, judging from the deck loading.  See:

http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/pdf/ocean-barge-fleet-a.pdf

As Kabloona says, he looked into it and there is no evidence another barge is being commissioned by McDonough Marine.  If they built another, it would show up here:

http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/recent-news.html

Second, do you have any evidence for your "make before break" assertion?  You seem to be stating a personal theory as a fact. That theory seems quite questionable from the construction timeline. And it misses the point in any case: the question is, "why break at all?"

I don't know what you mean by "I don't think ASDS duty is more difficult on a barge." It appears that MARMAC 300 had some unsuitability for continued use as an ASDS.  That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with its ASDS operations, a defect could have been discovered that was incurred in its earlier non-ASDS service.  MARMAC 300 was also the prototype for its class; the McDonough Marine news page hints that subsequent MARMACs might have been built with "increased side shell strength".  For whatever reason, MARMAC 300 was a fully-operational ASDS that was then taken out of service at quite a significant cost in time and money.  I don't expect to see it return to the ASDS fleet.  You are welcome to a different opinion.
Make before break was documented IIRC..  work on the current two was in progress while the old JRtI was still active.

Then they took off the wing section and transferred it over.

Deck loading wise, the rocket only weighs 20 tons.  I can't imagine rocket duty is more harrowing then bouncing around the ocean with oil drilling equipment on board.

3 or 4, I'm just making the market observation...  for whatever reason there were four  and now there are two less.  So either there was a glut, or now there's a shortage.

Those barges were originally built based on some demand, or demand forecast.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Barrie on 06/08/2016 05:29 pm
The expanded Panama Canal can accommodate an ASDS.  So is it possible that already, or in the near future, someone will start producing vessels of the new Panamax size which would  be good for ASDS use, and SpaceX will be able to pick one up when they feel the need?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/08/2016 05:33 pm
I'm questioning your statement: 'The main reason they switched barges is that they did a "make before break".'

It's the "reason" part I think is unsupported (and illogical).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/08/2016 07:22 pm
Quote
The main reason they switched barges is that they did a "make before break".

I have it on good authority that the reason for the switch was that Marmac 300 was an old beater barge near the end of its service life, and SpaceX wanted newer barges (Marmac 303 and 304 were only a year or so old at the time of refit) for long future trouble-free service.

Basically, they traded in the old jalopy for 2 creampuffs with low miles.  ;)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 06/08/2016 07:43 pm

I meant ask Marmac how much they would charge to build a barge similar spec'ed, undiscounted, to a customer with cash that walked in off the street... that would give us a cost ceiling for that bit. Or ask what the lease rate for same is, undiscounted...

Nice to know that L2 income is going for a good cause!  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/08/2016 09:14 pm
I'm questioning your statement: 'The main reason they switched barges is that they did a "make before break".'

It's the "reason" part I think is unsupported (and illogical).

If you start work on a new barge while you're still using the old one, that will preclude simply upgrading the old one.

That's a fact.

The rest, use at your own peril...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/08/2016 09:15 pm
Quote
The main reason they switched barges is that they did a "make before break".

I have it on good authority that the reason for the switch was that Marmac 300 was an old beater barge near the end of its service life, and SpaceX wanted newer barges (Marmac 303 and 304 were only a year or so old at the time of refit) for long future trouble-free service.

Basically, they traded in the old jalopy for 2 creampuffs with low miles.  ;)

Good enough for me...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 06/08/2016 10:14 pm
Regarding "make before break" (admittedly with the make overlapping the break somewhat), when I went to Morgan City to see the trio, 303 was sitting idle, already prepped for winging (exterior ribs made flat) but with nothing on deck.  304 was well into the winging process to become ASDS OCISLY.  And 300 still had the JRtI wings on but in the process of being de-ASDSed.

So, call it make-before-break, or at the very least "begin makes first, then run break concurrently".  :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/09/2016 12:49 am
Regardless, as Kabloona indicates, I don't expect to see MARMAC 300 reenter service.

There's MARMAC 3018 (318' long) and MARMAC 400 (400' long), though.  They are all Panama canal width (100').  If SpaceX were willing to deal with some slight differences amongst their fleet, probably either one would do in a pinch.    MARMAC 302 and (if deck loading and age of barge aren't an issue) MARMAC 301 would complete the set of "barges to watch".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 01:34 am
Back to the task at hand: watch for OCISLY departure Thursday morning.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/09/2016 12:57 pm
Regarding "make before break" (admittedly with the make overlapping the break somewhat), when I went to Morgan City to see the trio, 303 was sitting idle, already prepped for winging (exterior ribs made flat) but with nothing on deck.  304 was well into the winging process to become ASDS OCISLY.  And 300 still had the JRtI wings on but in the process of being de-ASDSed.

So, call it make-before-break, or at the very least "begin makes first, then run break concurrently".  :D
That's what I meant - "enough mb4b" to prevent using the old barge for the new ASDS.

I wonder now what's next. SpaceX doesn't stay in one place for long.  A few more barge landings and they'll get bored.  (SpaceX, not the barges)

Given how busy the barges are, we might see the next big thing happening on a third vesicle, though who knows what that will be.

Clearly just speculating here, it's just that I doubt the current setup is "final form".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 06/09/2016 01:09 pm

Given how busy the barges are, we might see the next big thing happening on a third vesicle, though who knows what that will be.


Autocorrect for the win, folks. :)

More generally yes, I agree. The evolution of recovery ops will be fascinating to observe.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 01:25 pm
Quote
Given how busy the barges are, we might see the next big thing happening on a third vesicle, though who knows what that will be.

Well, things may have to slow down soon.

I'm told by a reliable source that USCG is requesting *drydock* inspections of both barges for permitting. Which means a drydock wide enough to accommodate both barges, with wings, must be located, which won't be easy.

One drydock big enough is rumored to be in Oregon. No word on whether a closer drydock can be found for OCISLY. If she has to go to Oregon for a drydock inspection, that's probably at least 3 months out of action.

Since JRtI is idle on the West Coast, maybe they would send her up to Oregon first, then send her around to the Cape before sending OCISLY off to drydock, thus maintaining barge ops at the Cape without interruption, but that's only speculation on my part about how SpaceX might minimize impact to Cape ops.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 01:33 pm
I think the information that we are missing is: what does it cost to lease, modify and outfit a Marmac-300 (or similar) barge?  As ships of their tonnage go, they are pretty cheap, but it is still a good bit of money by the time it's in service as an ASDS.  I think they will eventually need a second one on the East Coast if they are as successful as they expect to be.

Someone familiar with barges of this size figures it's probably costing SpaceX around $6k per month to lease. That's per barge, not inculding the support ships.

I can't get any estimates on the refit costs. Someone familiar with shipbuilding might be able to take a WAG, but we haven't found such a person yet.

LAD Services in Berwick, LA did the refits, if anyone can pry some cost estimates out of them...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 06/09/2016 01:52 pm
Quote
Given how busy the barges are, we might see the next big thing happening on a third vesicle, though who knows what that will be.

Well, things may have to slow down soon.

I'm told by a reliable source that USCG is requesting *drydock* inspections of both barges for permitting. Which means a drydock wide enough to accommodate both barges, with wings, must be located, which won't be easy.

One drydock big enough is rumored to be in Oregon. No word on whether a closer drydock can be found for OCISLY. If she has to go to Oregon for a drydock inspection, that's probably at least 3 months out of action.

Since JRtI is idle on the West Coast, maybe they would send her up to Oregon first, then send her around to the Cape before sending OCISLY off to drydock, thus maintaining barge ops at the Cape without interruption, but that's only speculation on my part about how SpaceX might minimize impact to Cape ops.

Could the inspection be done by divers?

But TBH sounds like the CG being a PITA. Given the numbers of wrecks pretending to be seaworthy ships around (UK centric comment)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 01:55 pm
Quote
Could the inspection be done by divers?

Negative, must be drydocked.

Imaginary tweet from Elon: "@USCG, WTF???"
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kaputnik on 06/09/2016 02:28 pm
Would a ship lift do? e.g. one of the other Marmacs...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yokem55 on 06/09/2016 02:28 pm


Since JRtI is idle on the West Coast, maybe they would send her up to Oregon first, then send her around to the Cape before sending OCISLY off to drydock, thus maintaining barge ops at the Cape without interruption, but that's only speculation on my part about how SpaceX might minimize impact to Cape ops.
The problem with that though is that Vandenberg doesn't have RTLS ready or permitted yet, so without JRTI, the upcoming launches there (Formost/Sherpa, and 2 Iridium flights) would have to be seriously delayed or expended. I'm curious what kind of timeframe/deadline the CG wants for these inspections? And is there really nothing wide enough on the East coast? If worst comes to it, they could rush JRTI now (as in yesterday) up to Oregon, and as soon as OCISLY is done unloading the Eutelsat core, it would head for the Panama canal. As soon as JRTI is done in Oregon it heads back down to Panama to hopefully make it around to support CRS-9 mid July. Then as soon as OCISLY is done it goes down to support launches from Vandenberg and stays in the Pacific. Tight timeline, but may be doable..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 02:45 pm
Quote
I'm curious what kind of timeframe/deadline the CG wants for these inspections? And is there really nothing wide enough on the East coast?

Don't know. They're looking for a drydock big enough on the East Coast for OCISLY. Stay tuned.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 06/09/2016 03:07 pm
Since the wings are well above water, could they remove the wings, do the drydock inspection, add the wings back, and get those separately inspected?  Yes, would be an enormous pain in the ass, but probably better than the next best option if no EC drydock big enough can be found.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 06/09/2016 03:10 pm
This generates a WTF for me... what is the value add of this requirement by the USCG? And why now?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 03:21 pm
Since the wings are well above water, could they remove the wings, do the drydock inspection, add the wings back, and get those separately inspected?  Yes, would be an enormous pain in the ass, but probably better than the next best option if no EC drydock big enough can be found.

Many questions, few answers yet. Doubtful your scheme would be practical, though. If no drydock big enough, maybe a ship carrier as others have suggested in past discussions of how to transport barges.

Blue Marlin shown below.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 06/09/2016 03:24 pm
This generates a WTF for me... what is the value add of this requirement by the USCG? And why now?
Just a wild guess, but perhaps somebody put a bug in the USCG's ear regarding the hole punched in the deck earlier this year.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/09/2016 03:28 pm
Quote
Could the inspection be done by divers?

Negative, must be drydocked.

Imaginary tweet from Elon: "@USCG, WTF???"
There was an image somewhere of a barge on a bunch of rollers.

Is that an option?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 03:32 pm
This generates a WTF for me... what is the value add of this requirement by the USCG? And why now?
Just a wild guess, but perhaps somebody put a bug in the USCG's ear regarding the hole punched in the deck earlier this year.

Possible, but ABS reportedly oversaw those repairs, as well as McDonough Marine, so I'd think it was all done by the book. They did move quickly, though. And word is both barges are to be inspected, not just the damaged one.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 03:36 pm
Quote
Could the inspection be done by divers?

Negative, must be drydocked.

Imaginary tweet from Elon: "@USCG, WTF???"
There was an image somewhere of a barge on a bunch of rollers.

Is that an option?

That was one of the Marmacs under construction or being launched, on airbag (?) rollers. Wings were added later while in the water. Don't know if extra weight of wings now rules out haulout on rollers. Also, clearance/accessibility beneath may be an issue.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Doesitfloat on 06/09/2016 03:39 pm
Something seems "off" with the Coast Guard requiring a dry dock for inspection. They could ask for out of water inspection, but I haven't heard of Inspectors requiring a dock.  It's a barge for gosh snakes; no machinery or tanks other than ballast water. They could pull it out of the water with lift bags an couple semi trucks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/09/2016 03:40 pm
Quote
Could the inspection be done by divers?

Negative, must be drydocked.

Imaginary tweet from Elon: "@USCG, WTF???"
There was an image somewhere of a barge on a bunch of rollers.

Is that an option?

That was one of the Marmacs under construction or being launched, on airbag (?) rollers. Wings were added while in the water. Don't know if extra weight of wings now rules out haulout on rollers. Also, clearance/accessibility beneath may be an issue.
I figure once on rollers and on shore, you can add jacks.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 03:45 pm
Quote
Something seems "off" with the Coast Guard requiring a dry dock for inspection. They could ask for out of water inspection, but I haven't heard of Inspectors requiring a dock.  It's a barge for gosh snakes; no machinery or tanks other than ballast water. They could pull it out of the water with lift bags an couple semi trucks.

Dunno why, but "drydock" has been specifically requested, and barge owner is reportedly searching for drydocks big enough. If they could just haul the barges out into their yard in Louisiana, they wouldn't be looking around the country for a big enough drydock on each coast.

"Ours not to reason why..."
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Doesitfloat on 06/09/2016 03:48 pm
Looked at CG inspection documents: 
-I see confusion-- There is a "dry dock" inspection.  Normal inspection criteria.  But these Barges are new. Something is still a miss unless they missed this inspection when they were built. 

They could still pull the barges out on lift bags; then put them on cribbing for a safe inspection. 
Still this should have been done before they left the Marina the first time.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/09/2016 04:00 pm
I wonder if we're getting related issues confused in our game of telephone here.  What if SpaceX wanted to do a "major" refit of their fleet, that would require a dry dock for inspection *after the modifications were made*.  Then we'd hear roughly the same story: barge owners looking for a dry dock to enable coast guard inspection (...after modifications).

EDIT: on the other hand, this seems to indicate a dry dock inspection is a normal occurrence every 2.5yrs of salt water service:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/31.10-21
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 06/09/2016 04:03 pm
But TBH sounds like the CG being a PITA. Given the numbers of wrecks pretending to be seaworthy ships around.

You can bet your life it's not the CG being a PITA but a United States Senator.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gargoyle99 on 06/09/2016 04:21 pm
There are plenty of East coast dry docks big enough for the ASDS.  I've worked with Ingalls at Pascagoula (many years ago).  Basically, any of the big military ship builders can easily handle the ASDS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dry_docks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dry_docks)

Scheduling them on short notice is another question, and the really big dry docks are very expensive.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Doesitfloat on 06/09/2016 04:26 pm
I wonder if we're getting related issues confused in our game of telephone here.  What if SpaceX wanted to do a "major" refit of their fleet, that would require a dry dock for inspection *after the modifications were made*.  Then we'd hear roughly the same story: barge owners looking for a dry dock to enable coast guard inspection (...after modifications).

EDIT: on the other hand, this seems to indicate a dry dock inspection is a normal occurrence every 2.5yrs of salt water service:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/31.10-21

I agree with you. I had 5 years in my mind for drydock inspections but I'm wrong.
This is probably routine required service.  --But I like the conspiracy thoeries; makes it more interesting. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 06/09/2016 04:28 pm
Quote
Given how busy the barges are, we might see the next big thing happening on a third vesicle, though who knows what that will be.

Well, things may have to slow down soon.

I'm told by a reliable source that USCG is requesting *drydock* inspections of both barges for permitting. Which means a drydock wide enough to accommodate both barges, with wings, must be located, which won't be easy.

One drydock big enough is rumored to be in Oregon. No word on whether a closer drydock can be found for OCISLY. If she has to go to Oregon for a drydock inspection, that's probably at least 3 months out of action.

Since JRtI is idle on the West Coast, maybe they would send her up to Oregon first, then send her around to the Cape before sending OCISLY off to drydock, thus maintaining barge ops at the Cape without interruption, but that's only speculation on my part about how SpaceX might minimize impact to Cape ops.
Another possibility might be to bring the drydock to the barge - there are a number of  large semi-submersible heavy lift ships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy-lift_ship) out there which could likely do the job.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 04:47 pm
I wonder if we're getting related issues confused in our game of telephone here.  What if SpaceX wanted to do a "major" refit of their fleet, that would require a dry dock for inspection *after the modifications were made*.  Then we'd hear roughly the same story: barge owners looking for a dry dock to enable coast guard inspection (...after modifications).

I can tell you categorically this is coming from USCG, not SpaceX.

Elon must be fuming. If they have to splash just one stage while the ASDSes are in drydock, that's throwing away a $20M asset, depending on your accounting math...just when they've figured out how to make the ASDS landings work and are speeding up launch tempos.

The timing stinks, but maybe they can schedule the OCISLY drydock inspection for the period around an RTLS mission and try not to miss any GTO sea landings.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gospacex on 06/09/2016 05:23 pm
Quote
Could the inspection be done by divers?

Negative, must be drydocked.

Imaginary tweet from Elon: "@USCG, WTF???"

You can see the bottom of Marmac 300 hull without drydocking:

http://www.dredgemag.com/March-April-2003/Titan-Lifts-4000-ton-Wreck/

"The 300’ x 90’ barge Marmac-300 was partially submerged, with the bow of the barge placed in the trench, and the wreck was pulled onto the inclined barge using Titan Linear Chain Pullers."
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/09/2016 05:24 pm
I wonder if we're getting related issues confused in our game of telephone here.  What if SpaceX wanted to do a "major" refit of their fleet, that would require a dry dock for inspection *after the modifications were made*.  Then we'd hear roughly the same story: barge owners looking for a dry dock to enable coast guard inspection (...after modifications).

I can tell you categorically this is coming from USCG, not SpaceX.

Elon must be fuming. If they have to splash just one stage while the ASDSes are in drydock, that's throwing away a $20M asset, depending on your accounting math...just when they've figured out how to make the ASDS landings work and are speeding up launch tempos.

The timing stinks, but maybe they can schedule the OCISLY drydock inspection for the period around an RTLS mission and try not to miss any GTO sea landings.
You edited away my EDIT section.  It seems clear to me now that this is a normal and expected 2.5yr service-in-saltwater requirement.  Hard to see how Elon would be "fuming" about something everyone has known all along.

I'm sure the logistics are still very challenging for all involved, especially with uncertainties about the Panama Canal new lock opening dates and the ever-shifting SpaceX launch schedule.  Challenging, yes.  *Surprising*, no.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 06/09/2016 05:34 pm
heres some information i found a while back. sounds like the coast gaurd is wanting to define the asds as something other than a barge.

found something

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2011/12/14/2011-32007/seagoing-barges

"In 1993, Congress exempted from inspection seagoing barges that are unmanned and not carrying hazardous material as cargo, or carrying a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2014-title46/html/USCODE-2014-title46-subtitleII-partB-chap33-sec3302.htm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

not a lawyer so not sure if this actually covers what it sounds like
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 06/09/2016 05:40 pm
If this is a routine inspection, then why is the owner scrambling to find a dry dock? They should be prepared, or is it a case of as we call it "Christmas comes always as a surprise"?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mattrog on 06/09/2016 05:42 pm
heres some information i found a while back. sounds like the coast gaurd is wanting to define the asds as something other than a barge.

found something

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2011/12/14/2011-32007/seagoing-barges

"In 1993, Congress exempted from inspection seagoing barges that are unmanned and not carrying hazardous material as cargo, or carrying a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2014-title46/html/USCODE-2014-title46-subtitleII-partB-chap33-sec3302.htm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

not a lawyer so not sure if this actually covers what it sounds like
Elon has been pushing for people to not call them barges but drone ships ... what if they are officially being reclassified as "ships" ?

Could a drydock inspection be a precursor to a full reclassification? Coast guard being extra careful as they have essentially built a new ship on the water?

How often are sea going ships subject to a drydock inspection... ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/09/2016 05:54 pm


How often are sea going ships subject to a drydock inspection... ?

Every 2.5 or 5 years, depending on the type.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/09/2016 06:00 pm
If this is a routine inspection, then why is the owner scrambling to find a dry dock? They should be prepared, or is it a case of as we call it "Christmas comes always as a surprise"?
Both seem equally plausible to me: A) "Christmas comes as a surprise", especially in the current phase of operations where the east coast ASDS suddenly has basically no downtime between missions; or B) some disagreement based on how the ship is classified or the wording of the federal exemption moving the ship into a different inspection schedule.  But even option B should be an *inconvenience* but not a total *surprise*, given that even us here at NSF have been discussing for some time the grey area of classification which the ASDS falls into.  Surely experienced ship operators would know the possibilities, even if they've been lobbying for a particular preference.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 06:02 pm
I wonder if we're getting related issues confused in our game of telephone here.  What if SpaceX wanted to do a "major" refit of their fleet, that would require a dry dock for inspection *after the modifications were made*.  Then we'd hear roughly the same story: barge owners looking for a dry dock to enable coast guard inspection (...after modifications).

I can tell you categorically this is coming from USCG, not SpaceX.

Elon must be fuming. If they have to splash just one stage while the ASDSes are in drydock, that's throwing away a $20M asset, depending on your accounting math...just when they've figured out how to make the ASDS landings work and are speeding up launch tempos.

The timing stinks, but maybe they can schedule the OCISLY drydock inspection for the period around an RTLS mission and try not to miss any GTO sea landings.
You edited away my EDIT section.  It seems clear to me now that this is a normal and expected 2.5yr service-in-saltwater requirement.  Hard to see how Elon would be "fuming" about something everyone has known all along.

I'm sure the logistics are still very challenging for all involved, especially with uncertainties about the Panama Canal new lock opening dates and the ever-shifting SpaceX launch schedule.  Challenging, yes.  *Surprising*, no.

I don't have all the details but it sounds unexpected, and that's all I can say right now. It appears to be related to after-the-fact permitting rather than regular inspection, as though the Coast Guard missed something in the permitting process the first time around, and maybe now they're having to go back and double-check things to verify the ASDSes are in fact meeting whatever the requirements are for their particular permits.

Whatever the case, it does not sound like a "business as usual" routine inspection. That's why I imagined Elon might be upset.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 06/09/2016 06:08 pm
I wonder if we're getting related issues confused in our game of telephone here.  What if SpaceX wanted to do a "major" refit of their fleet, that would require a dry dock for inspection *after the modifications were made*.  Then we'd hear roughly the same story: barge owners looking for a dry dock to enable coast guard inspection (...after modifications).

I can tell you categorically this is coming from USCG, not SpaceX.

Elon must be fuming. If they have to splash just one stage while the ASDSes are in drydock, that's throwing away a $20M asset, depending on your accounting math...just when they've figured out how to make the ASDS landings work and are speeding up launch tempos.

The timing stinks, but maybe they can schedule the OCISLY drydock inspection for the period around an RTLS mission and try not to miss any GTO sea landings.

Well, they can always get a fleet of lawyers deployed to postpone the event for as long as possible, and in that time put together one or two more ASDSes from whatever available barges they can find.

It sounds like JRtI may be in stand-down mode for long enough at a time that Vandenberg ops may not need to be impacted, but with OCISLY being needed once a month or more, I can see no way, even with an east coast drydock, to accomplish such an inspection without forcing the splash of at least one stage.  Burns one's butt (and makes one incredibly suspicious), though, to think that USCG decided to let JRtI sit for months and months, and then issue some kind of immediate inspection decree seemingly timed solely to prevent its use in upcoming flights -- when an inspection could easily have been done anytime since February with zero impact to SpaceX operations.

If SpaceX can put off USCG for six months, they can find a good timeframe to get JRtI up to Oregon and back without impacting operations, and more importantly rent another barge and set it up as another east coast ASDS in that timeframe.  Heck, they'll likely need to do the latter at some point in the next year anyway; this is just forcing SpaceX's hand a bit.

I can understand that USCG has its processes and such.  But, first off, if this is a common, "hey, you need to be inspected every n years", I also know that there are processes in place that inform the owner/user of the requirement well in advance of any hard deadlines.

If USCG is bypassing all of the preliminaries, and the first notification was indeed the threat to immediately ground the ASDSes until they perform drydock inspections, that speaks to an urgency that is not normally applied to such inspections.  If SpaceX is indeed being singled out for such urgency, and said urgency is being applied from someone's political seat in order to harm SpaceX and benefit, say, another launch provider in that political seat's district, then that's abuse of power and cause for impeachment.  Plain and simple.

So, the area in which we are ignorant, and (as always) are forced to speculate, is whether or not SpaceX had been made aware of the drydock inspection requirement before now, and whether, if these are nominally required inspections that all vessels must go through, SpaceX has actually been "ambushed" by a sudden requirement that seems targeted at damaging their business operations, or not.

Consider it's always possible that the actual owners of the barges have been presented with appropriate paperwork asking for the scheduling of such inspections for a while, and have not properly transmitted the information to the company to which they are leasing the barges -- i.e., SpaceX.  There is obviously either a disconnect or an inappropriate application of urgency around these inspections, but we ought not just assume wrongdoing when there are other channels that could have broken down and resulted in what appears to be an inappropriate set of requests.

The worst possible breakdown would be one within SpaceX itself, with the people in the department that manages the barge leases not talking properly to the legal team that tracks all permissions and permission requests, inspection requests, etc., etc.  I would hope this isn't the case, but hey, we don't have enough info to rule it out, do we?

Complicated tangle of possibilities, here.  The cat's been at the yarn with this one; we'll need to keep a very close eye on it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/09/2016 06:09 pm
Here's something else:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/46/2101
Quote
(32)
“seagoing barge” means a non-self-propelled vessel of at least 100 gross tons as measured under section 14502 of this title, or an alternate tonnage measured under section 14302 of this title as prescribed by the Secretary undersection 14104 of this title making voyages beyond the Boundary Line.

Elon has always very clearly stated the vessel is a ship, not a barge, based on this definition ("self-propelled").  Therefore the ASDS does not fall under the exemption from inspection for sea-going barges:



https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2014-title46/html/USCODE-2014-title46-subtitleII-partB-chap33-sec3302.htm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."


It's possible that Elon, the USCG, and McDonough Marine had a little disagreement about this, but the USCG is now seeing things Elon's way.  Perhaps the scramble is because McDonough Marine still had the vessel listed in their files as a "sea-going barge" and didn't realize they needed to get it inspected (or didn't get the right inspection deadline notices from the USCG because the USCG still had it listed as a sea-going barge).

EDIT: I can actually see Elon "fuming" about this: "Guys!  In absolutely every public appearance I've been saying this is a *ship* not a *barge*.  How did you have it still listed as a barge?  It's a ship! Ship! Ship! Autonomous Spaceport Drone *Ship*! Not a barge!". ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 06:21 pm
Quote
Elon has always very clearly stated the vessel is a ship, not a barge, based on this definition ("self-propelled").  Therefore the ASDS does not fall under the sea-going barge exemption from inspection.

That's Elon's understandable public PR preference not to call the ASDS a "barge."

In private with the Coast Guard I expect he's happy to call it whatever will allow them to be exempt from inspection, if that is possible. He can't be choosing to spend the time, money, and potentially lost stages just so he can call it a "ship" on Coast Guard paperwork.

Maybe your reclassification idea is correct, though, in reverse, that it's the Coast Guard, not Elon, who wants to reclassify it/them as a ship, with the resulting inspection requirements.

OTOH, it's not clear to me that even as a sea-going barge it was ever exempt from the routine inspection requirement, because it could be interpreted as carrying "hazardous material as cargo" (FTS ordnance, TEA/TEB residuals). We've seen NOTAMS posted for hazardous ops (unloading "missiles" at the OCISLY wharf) which suggests that at least the FAA considers a returned stage to be "hazardous."

Whatever is going on, the info from my source does not sound like routine scheduled inspections.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/09/2016 06:37 pm
More details on the sea-going barge exemption: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-01-09/pdf/2012-30984.pdf

The term *self-propelled* is quite broadly defined; see https://www.uscg.mil/hq/msc/tonnage/docs/nvic_11-93_CH-3.pdf ("any vessel with means of self-propulsion, including sails").

On review it seems clear to me that Elon has been correct and the vessel ceased to be exempt as a barge as soon as it was fitted with "means of self-propulsion", even if it was often towed in practice.

I'm leaning towards the "Christmas is always a surprise" explanation.  It's clear that the ASDS is not exempt, and there's a regular scheduled drydock inspection requirement.  Clearly not everyone was expecting it or prepared in advance, however.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 06/09/2016 06:41 pm
Any guesses as to whether this inspection mess will impact the next ASDS sortie, which should be just hours away?

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 06:56 pm
Any guesses as to whether this inspection mess will impact the next ASDS sortie, which should be just hours away?

It shouldn't, since they haven't even found an East Coast drydock yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/09/2016 06:56 pm
I don't know the exact classification of the ASDS.  Guessing a bit, I come up with https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/91.40-3, where the requirement for " single hulled ships" in saltwater is 2.5 years and "Where Table 91.40-3(a) indicates a 2.5 year examination interval, it means a vessel must undergo two examinations within any five year period. No more than three years may elapse between any two examinations."

IIRC someone managed to pull up the inspection and classification history of the MARMACs before.  Based on the last drydocking and the "no more than 3 years" requirement we could figure out the exact new inspection deadline.

But I can approximate.

MARMAC 303/OCISLY was launched in May 2013 according to http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/recent-news.html.  Assuming it had its first dry dock inspection in that month, OCISLY is now ~1 month past due. (Which would explain the scurry.)

MARMAC 304 was launched in August 2013, so it might have a month or so of grace left. (Which explains why they are not as frantic about west coast dry docks.)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/91.01-20 gives you 30 days grace period if you're already at sea.  https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/91.01-15 also provides for a temporary certificate "to prevent delay of vessel"; I'd expect that's what SpaceX is currently operating under (or is scrambling to obtain).

FWIW what I read about conversions between classes of ship seemed to indicate that the inspection schedule always applies from the time the ship was first certified with its original type.  That is, the clock started when the barge was built, not on the day (a few years later) when the barge became a ship. I'm not as certain about this, I didn't find the exact clause for the ASDS, but that seemed to be the pattern for other classification types.

EDIT: I got MARMAC 303 and MARMAC 304 switched; see ClayJar's correction below.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/09/2016 07:05 pm
Quote
MARMAC 304 was launched in August 2013, so it might have a few months of grace left. (Which explains why they are not as frantic about west coast dry docks.)

Just for the record, my source did not say anything about relative levels of franticness.  ;)

However, we might assume the East Coast situation is of more concern to SpaceX since OCISLY should be busier than JRtI in the coming months.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 06/09/2016 08:00 pm
MARMAC 303/OCISLY was launched in May 2013 according to http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/recent-news.html.  Assuming it had its first dry dock inspection in that month, OCISLY is now ~1 month past due. (Which would explain the scurry.)

MARMAC 304 was launched in August 2013, so it might have a month or so of grace left. (Which explains why they are not as frantic about west coast dry docks.)

The east coast ASDS OCISLY is MARMAC 304.  The west coast ASDS JRtI (reincarnated) is MARMAC 303.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/09/2016 08:22 pm
Oh, good catch ClayJar!  I was basing my post above on https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/06/spacex-augments-upgrades-drone-ship-armada/ but I forgot that we all got fooled by that naming.  You're right.  In that case, I'd expect JRtI on the west coast to have already visited or be visiting a dry dock real soon now... but OCISLY here should have until August for its inspection.  That would answer CJ's question (and let us all breathe a little sigh of short-term relief).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 06/09/2016 10:05 pm
According to ABS records, JRTI (Marmac 303) has a drydock survey due date of June 10th, 2016
https://www.eagle.org/safenet/record/record_vesselclassurveystatus?ReferrerApplication=PUBLIC&Service=1

For OCISLY (Marmac 304) the due date for the drydock survey is September 15th, 2016
https://www.eagle.org/safenet/record/record_vesselclassurveystatus?ReferrerApplication=PUBLIC&Service=1

IMHO, both of those dates are uncomfortably close, but worse for JRTI (tomorrow!).

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/10/2016 12:40 am
Getting back to the upcoming launch: Elsbeth III AIS has been off for 2 days on MarineTraffic. Hasn't left port yet? If not, they're cutting it close. Transit to LZ takes 4 days. They have only 12 or so hours left for departure or risk being late to the party. This is cutting it closer than usual.

Or are they already gone and we just didn't see it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 06/10/2016 01:06 am
we don't have as many on the ground resources as in some past times...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: e of pi on 06/10/2016 01:55 am
It was in port around 3 PM yesterday, I can say--I'm on vacation down here. Sadly, no Delta...my vacation to sunny Florida appears to have brought incessant drizzle since we pulled out of my garage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/10/2016 02:38 am
If Elsbeth III's AIS is still turned off Friday morning, can someone try to get a visual? Because if she's still in port by mid-morning, something is wrong. Should have left ~12 hours ago.

Hoping they haven't been shut down by this Coast Guard drydock inspection thing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 06/10/2016 03:58 am
If Elsbeth III's AIS is still turned off Friday morning, can someone try to get a visual? Because if she's still in port by mid-morning, something is wrong. Should have left ~12 hours ago.

Hoping they haven't been shut down by this Coast Guard drydock inspection thing.

If I remember correctly (a very big if) we've always seen some activity with the support ships a few hours or more before a sortie. I've checked on two sites, and both Elsbeth III and Go Quest haven't sent an AIS signal since the 7th.

My guess; either there's a launch delay they haven't announced yet, or OCISLY is mired in paperwork and won't be going out this time. If the latter, and the ABS inspection due dates I posted earlier are accurate, then it's not a scheduled inspection that's the problem, and an inspection has been required for some other reason. 

Edit to add; I get a distance of 370 nautical miles to the recovery location from Port Canaveral. At a speed of advance of 5 knots, that's 74 hours. Call it 75 due to having to exit the port, and maybe add 5 for setting up and getting OCISLY in position? That's 80 hours.  The launch is scheduled (so far as we know) for 10:32 AM EDT, Tuesday, June 14th. It is currently 1:05 AM, June 10th, there right now. I make that as as 105 1/2 hours from now. So, I'll start getting worried if they're still in port this time tomorrow. (or, I messed up the math).

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 06/10/2016 07:05 am
wonder if in the future they could create a loop hole by making the thrustmasters detachable lego elements that get installed at the landing site and removed before they tow back in.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/10/2016 09:21 am
If Elsbeth III's AIS is still turned off Friday morning, can someone try to get a visual? Because if she's still in port by mid-morning, something is wrong. Should have left ~12 hours ago.

Hoping they haven't been shut down by this Coast Guard drydock inspection thing.

If I remember correctly (a very big if) we've always seen some activity with the support ships a few hours or more before a sortie. I've checked on two sites, and both Elsbeth III and Go Quest haven't sent an AIS signal since the 7th.

My guess; either there's a launch delay they haven't announced yet, or OCISLY is mired in paperwork and won't be going out this time. If the latter, and the ABS inspection due dates I posted earlier are accurate, then it's not a scheduled inspection that's the problem, and an inspection has been required for some other reason. 

Edit to add; I get a distance of 370 nautical miles to the recovery location from Port Canaveral. At a speed of advance of 5 knots, that's 74 hours. Call it 75 due to having to exit the port, and maybe add 5 for setting up and getting OCISLY in position? That's 80 hours.  The launch is scheduled (so far as we know) for 10:32 AM EDT, Tuesday, June 14th. It is currently 1:05 AM, June 10th, there right now. I make that as as 105 1/2 hours from now. So, I'll start getting worried if they're still in port this time tomorrow. (or, I messed up the math).

For SES-9, someone on Reddit had satellite AIS and tracked them the whole way out. It took them almost exactly 4 days, close to 100 hours to reach the LZ. They had left port around 120 hours in advance, so they had almost a full day at the LZ to set up.

Maybe they are planning go go faster this time; we'll see.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 06/10/2016 09:43 am
If Elsbeth III's AIS is still turned off Friday morning, can someone try to get a visual? Because if she's still in port by mid-morning, something is wrong. Should have left ~12 hours ago.

Hoping they haven't been shut down by this Coast Guard drydock inspection thing.

If I remember correctly (a very big if) we've always seen some activity with the support ships a few hours or more before a sortie. I've checked on two sites, and both Elsbeth III and Go Quest haven't sent an AIS signal since the 7th.

My guess; either there's a launch delay they haven't announced yet, or OCISLY is mired in paperwork and won't be going out this time. If the latter, and the ABS inspection due dates I posted earlier are accurate, then it's not a scheduled inspection that's the problem, and an inspection has been required for some other reason. 

Edit to add; I get a distance of 370 nautical miles to the recovery location from Port Canaveral. At a speed of advance of 5 knots, that's 74 hours. Call it 75 due to having to exit the port, and maybe add 5 for setting up and getting OCISLY in position? That's 80 hours.  The launch is scheduled (so far as we know) for 10:32 AM EDT, Tuesday, June 14th. It is currently 1:05 AM, June 10th, there right now. I make that as as 105 1/2 hours from now. So, I'll start getting worried if they're still in port this time tomorrow. (or, I messed up the math).

For SES-9, someone on Reddit had satellite AIS and tracked them the whole way out. It took them almost exactly 4 days, close to 100 hours to reach the LZ. They had left port around 120 hours in advance, so they had almost a full day at the LZ to set up.

Maybe they are planning go go faster this time; we'll see.

Thanks for the info.
IMHO, it'd make sense to not cut it too close, just in case they have problems when setting up at the LZ. If they have the time, why not use it for a safety margin? That makes the current lack of motion even more ominous. 

I just noticed something on vesslefinder; Go Quest and Go Searcher haven't moved, but their AIS, which had been silent since the 7th, went active - both at the same time, about 15 minutes ago. Still nothing from EIII. The Go ships would probably go out even without OCISLY (fairing recovery experiments is my guess), so I am very much not liking seeing them powering up while EIII isn't doing anything. I guess we'll know in a few hours.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gadgetmind on 06/10/2016 09:44 am
I'm told by a reliable source that USCG is requesting *drydock* inspections of both barges for permitting.

Can I safely assume that in this context the word "requesting" has very much the same meaning as "demanding"?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/10/2016 09:53 am
Quote
IMHO, it'd make sense to not cut it too close, just in case they have problems when setting up at the LZ. If they have the time, why not use it for a safety margin? That makes the current lack of motion even more ominous. 

My thoughts exactly. Trying to save a day of towing time and leaving little margin makes no sense when you're trying to catch a $20M stage.

Quote
I just noticed something on vesslefinder; Go Quest and Go Searcher haven't moved, but their AIS, which had been silent since the 7th, went active - both at the same time, about 15 minutes ago. Still nothing from EIII.

GQ and GS have shown up on MarineTraffic for the last few days, so their AIS has been on the whole time.  Vesselfinder may not have been picking up their signal for some reason.

Quote
Can I safely assume that in this context the word "requesting" has very much the same meaning as "demanding"?

Let's call it an offer they can't refuse.  :(
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/10/2016 11:28 am
Elsbeth III back on AIS, now showing up at OCISLY berth. Game on!

Don't know why they're leaving a day later this time. Maybe they've gotten enough experience to know they can tow a little faster. Or the captain had a schedule conflict.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 06/10/2016 12:00 pm
For SES-9, someone on Reddit had satellite AIS and tracked them the whole way out. It took them almost exactly 4 days, close to 100 hours to reach the LZ. They had left port around 120 hours in advance, so they had almost a full day at the LZ to set up.

Maybe they are planning go go faster this time; we'll see.

Hey, maybe we missheard the "Gas&Go" objective and it was in fact "Catch&Go" ! ;D
Imagine the sight of the ASDS coming full speed ahead to catch the stage right on the spot !

This would make for some pretty awesome videos. ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/10/2016 01:06 pm
For SES-9, someone on Reddit had satellite AIS and tracked them the whole way out. It took them almost exactly 4 days, close to 100 hours to reach the LZ. They had left port around 120 hours in advance, so they had almost a full day at the LZ to set up.

Maybe they are planning go go faster this time; we'll see.

Hey, maybe we missheard the "Gas&Go" objective and it was in fact "Catch&Go" ! ;D
Imagine the sight of the ASDS coming full speed ahead to catch the stage right on the spot !

This would make for some pretty awesome videos. ;D
You'll need to program the stage for a couple of knots of horizontal velocity at touch down...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/10/2016 01:27 pm
we don't have as many on the ground resources as in some past times...

I am out of state
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/10/2016 02:11 pm
Elsbeth III back on AIS, now showing up at OCISLY berth. Game on!

Don't know why they're leaving a day later this time. Maybe they've gotten enough experience to know they can tow a little faster. Or the captain had a schedule conflict.  ;)
Or there's a day slip in the launch schedule.  They moved the launch up two days, taking back one of them (especially if the long range weather forecast is iffy---Delta heavy is having troubles right now) might be simple prudence.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/10/2016 02:17 pm
wonder if in the future they could create a loop hole by making the thrustmasters detachable lego elements that get installed at the landing site and removed before they tow back in.
In my reading, the inspection requirement becomes active as soon as the change in status is made, and the dates are retroactive to the build date of the ship (not the conversion date) so the ASDS certificate of inspection becomes invalid as soon as the thrustmasters are fitted. 

There is probably some language in the regs that prevents your previous certificate of inspection from being automatically valid again after you take off the thrustmasters.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/91.01-20 ("expiration at sea") only applies if the destination port is a foreign country.  So I wouldn't count on this loophole being effective, unless you planned to never return to the US after fitting the thrustmasters.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/10/2016 02:18 pm
According to ABS records, JRTI (Marmac 303) has a drydock survey due date of June 10th, 2016
https://www.eagle.org/safenet/record/record_vesselclassurveystatus?ReferrerApplication=PUBLIC&Service=1

For OCISLY (Marmac 304) the due date for the drydock survey is September 15th, 2016
https://www.eagle.org/safenet/record/record_vesselclassurveystatus?ReferrerApplication=PUBLIC&Service=1

IMHO, both of those dates are uncomfortably close, but worse for JRTI (tomorrow!).
Can we get eyes on JRtI?  That one ought to be visible to a west coast passerby, we could see of its sitting in its usual berth.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: flyright on 06/10/2016 02:19 pm
ASDS and support ships are still at dock as of 10:00 AM EDT
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 06/10/2016 02:32 pm
But Elsbeth III is at the ASDS' stern. Good sign
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 06/10/2016 03:10 pm
we don't have as many on the ground resources as in some past times...

I am out of state

The same issue here :(
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JebK on 06/10/2016 03:21 pm
Looks like Elsbeth III is under way.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 06/10/2016 03:28 pm
I believe ASDS Elsbeth III can now be seen on Port Canaveral Webcam 11:27am EDT

Now passing Majesty of the Seas

Please look on Jetty Park Surf Webcam  http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report   to see ASDS Elsbeth III exiting Port Canaveral
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 06/10/2016 03:41 pm
And there goes the ASDS...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 06/10/2016 03:43 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

Everybody wish ADSD OCISLY and Elsbeth III goodluck .

they are exiting PC NOW. Watch on Jetty Park webcam at SurfGURU.com

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/10/2016 03:46 pm
Let's go git us some rocket!  Yeeeehaaa!   

(Galloping off at 5 knots)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 06/10/2016 03:52 pm
Happy Hunting, Brave ASDS!

(they need to start painting marks on the wall next to the shamrock for stages caught)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/10/2016 03:52 pm
So no launch date slip?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AncientU on 06/10/2016 03:55 pm
Nice view on two palms
http://www.nojava.twopalms.com/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Retired Downrange on 06/10/2016 03:57 pm
I wonder what the crew of the Elsbeth III says when asked; "What do you do?"
..."I work on a tugboat, and we catch rockets." 😏😎
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: flyright on 06/10/2016 03:58 pm
Passing Jetty Park at 11:40 AM EDT
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 06/10/2016 03:58 pm
So no launch date slip?
As we understand it now, the ASDS leaving today is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for launch happening on the date (and the stage being caught, but remember Elon has to sign off on any non recovery attempt launch)... so we don't yet know for sure there isn't a slip, but this is a good sign.

If they were slipping a day... maybe they wpould have left today anyway. But if they were slipping a month they wouldn't leave today.

So IF there is a slip planned, it presumably won't be much.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 06/10/2016 03:59 pm
Nice view on two palms
http://www.nojava.twopalms.com/
Indeed😊
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 06/10/2016 04:06 pm
anybody know if they are keeping track of stages caught ON OCISLY? they have the big shamrock on the blast wall, but do they have little rockets or small shamrocks painted next to it like they do on fighter planes?

that would be a cool thing to see  ;D :o 8) ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 06/10/2016 04:12 pm
Passing Jetty Park at 11:40 AM EDT


Nice work grabbing those photos for us!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 06/10/2016 04:25 pm
Happy Hunting, Brave ASDS!

(they need to start painting marks on the wall next to the shamrock for stages caught)
ya'know, i hadn't scrolled up the thread to see this, but i just also suggested that as well. you could even have one that was leaning for the Thaicom-8 stage...  ;) ::) #Snarkasm

I guess Lar and I are on the same wavelength today!!   :D ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Davp99 on 06/10/2016 04:46 pm
Elsbeth-lll is Making 5.2 knots..Flying
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 06/10/2016 05:00 pm
Elsbeth-lll is Making 5.2 knots..Flying

Remember and note, you can get positions for the Sx fleet ships even when out of shore based AIS receivers.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/index/positions/all/shipid:434560/mmsi:367017460/shipname:ELSBETH%20III/_:0b7e17f76b6019d9b01245f9d730fd6b

download the .csv files and plug the the lat/long coordinates, speed, course into GoogleEarth

or just make it easy on yourself and join and pay for the Satellite AIS service from MarineTraffic.com
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 06/10/2016 05:08 pm
I wonder what the crew of the Elsbeth III says when asked; "What do you do?"
..."I work on a tugboat, and we catch rockets." 😏😎

Those guys do an incredible job under difficult conditions.  Maybe NSF can come up with some way, sometime down the road, to let them know how much all of us ASDS stalkers appreciate the risks they take, and the great work they do.

I doubt they'd have a lot of use for an L2 membership (though you never know!), but maybe we can put our heads together and come up with something nice.  Like, organize an NSF get-together down in the Cape area and invite them, or something.  I dunno... just a thought.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 06/10/2016 05:12 pm
anybody know if they are keeping track of stages caught ON OCISLY? they have the big shamrock on the blast wall, but do they have little rockets or small shamrocks painted next to it like they do on fighter planes?

that would be a cool thing to see  ;D :o 8) ::)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 06/10/2016 05:21 pm
I wonder what the crew of the Elsbeth III says when asked; "What do you do?"
..."I work on a tugboat, and we catch rockets." 😏😎

Those guys do an incredible job under difficult conditions.  Maybe NSF can come up with some way, sometime down the road, to let them know how much all of us ASDS stalkers appreciate the risks they take, and the great work they do.

I doubt they'd have a lot of use for an L2 membership (though you never know!), but maybe we can put our heads together and come up with something nice.  Like, organize an NSF get-together down in the Cape area and invite them, or something.  I dunno... just a thought.  :)

Bags of marshmallows in case of RUDs? ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: hans_ober on 06/10/2016 05:30 pm
SES-9 really hurt her bad, now she's doin pretty fine I'd say. Just gets a mild scalding from time to time.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: philw1776 on 06/10/2016 06:12 pm
But TBH sounds like the CG being a PITA. Given the numbers of wrecks pretending to be seaworthy ships around.

You can bet your life it's not the CG being a PITA but a United States Senator.

Likely so.
Assuming this rumor about the Coasties drydock requirement is true, I'm surprised that Elon didn't bring this up as an impediment in his this Wednesday's meeting with the Secretary of Defense.  Would love to see the SecDef rain down hell on the USCG post meeting.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 06/10/2016 06:17 pm
I wonder what the crew of the Elsbeth III says when asked; "What do you do?"
..."I work on a tugboat, and we catch rockets." 😏😎

Those guys do an incredible job under difficult conditions.  Maybe NSF can come up with some way, sometime down the road, to let them know how much all of us ASDS stalkers appreciate the risks they take, and the great work they do.

I doubt they'd have a lot of use for an L2 membership (though you never know!), but maybe we can put our heads together and come up with something nice.  Like, organize an NSF get-together down in the Cape area and invite them, or something.  I dunno... just a thought.  :)

No worse than deep sea trawler fishing, working on a rig, running an icebreaker, etc. Most offshore jobs can get pretty unpleasant at times!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarsInMyLifetime on 06/10/2016 06:48 pm
This particular type of gig comes with some unique bragging rights. It's not the usual deckhand experience!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/10/2016 09:05 pm
But TBH sounds like the CG being a PITA. Given the numbers of wrecks pretending to be seaworthy ships around.

You can bet your life it's not the CG being a PITA but a United States Senator.

Likely so.
Assuming this rumor about the Coasties drydock requirement is true, I'm surprised that Elon didn't bring this up as an impediment in his this Wednesday's meeting with the Secretary of Defense.  Would love to see the SecDef rain down hell on the USCG post meeting.  :)
We've confirmed that there's nothing nefarious going on, the date of the next scheduled dry dock inspection is as expected and is a matter of public record.  There may have been some scrambling, but there needn't have been.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: flyright on 06/10/2016 10:06 pm
Passing Jetty Park at 11:40 AM EDT


Nice work grabbing those photos for us!

Glad I could put to good use some of my "Bonus Time" in FL. Came here to see the DIV Heavy Launch and was obliged to extend a couple days due to the weather delay.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/11/2016 12:42 am
Quote
We've confirmed that there's nothing nefarious going on, the date of the next scheduled dry dock inspection is as expected and is a matter of public record.  There may have been some scrambling, but there needn't have been.

Maybe not nefarious, but a source close to the matter says this is definitely unexpected.

McDonough Marine's barge experience is mainly with tank barges, not unmanned (self-propelled?) deck barges, and the source guesses that it may have something to do with reclassification by USCG, along the lines of what cscott has suggested upthread, or a misunderstanding about the inspection requirements that would be levied on the barges after refit as ASDSes.

However, he knows that neither McDonough Marine nor SpaceX saw this coming. And McDonough leases barges for a living, so they know the normal inspection routine. But it looks like the ASDS refits tossed them a curveball they didn't anticipate.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 06/11/2016 02:51 am
Quote
We've confirmed that there's nothing nefarious going on, the date of the next scheduled dry dock inspection is as expected and is a matter of public record.  There may have been some scrambling, but there needn't have been.

Maybe not nefarious, but a source close to the matter says this is definitely unexpected.

McDonough Marine's barge experience is mainly with tank barges, not unmanned (self-propelled?) deck barges, and the source guesses that it may have something to do with reclassification by USCG, along the lines of what cscott has suggested upthread, or a misunderstanding about the inspection requirements that would be levied on the barges after refit as ASDSes.

However, he knows that neither McDonough Marine nor SpaceX saw this coming. And McDonough leases barges for a living, so they know the normal inspection routine. But it looks like the ASDS refits tossed them a curveball they didn't anticipate.

IMHO, your source sounds like they know what they are talking about. Thank you for getting this.

Now for some mindless speculation on my part; perhaps it's something to do with the USCG no longer considering the ASDSs (ASDSii?) experimental, but operational? Also, I'm wondering if the late departure could have had something to do with this, such as having to ask for, and get, a temporary waiver?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/11/2016 03:03 am
Quote
Also, I'm wondering if the late departure could have had something to do with this, such as having to ask for, and get, a temporary waiver?

Have asked that question and am also trying to find out how much of a time window USCG is giving them to comply.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 06/11/2016 03:41 am
hard to figure out exactly what rules apply since we dont know what its classed as... but i did see something somewhere about annual inspections being required within the window of 3 months before and after the anniversary due date. so hypothetically it sounds like they might have 3 months left?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/91.27-1#a

here's the request for inspection form.

http://www.uscg.mil/forms/CG/CG_3752.pdf

on page nine of the barge inspection book theres some references to extensions but i guess those dont apply eh?
http://www.uscg.mil/d1/msdCapeCod/docs/Barge840.pdf
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 06/11/2016 12:34 pm
More details on the sea-going barge exemption: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-01-09/pdf/2012-30984.pdf

The term *self-propelled* is quite broadly defined; see https://www.uscg.mil/hq/msc/tonnage/docs/nvic_11-93_CH-3.pdf ("any vessel with means of self-propulsion, including sails").

On review it seems clear to me that Elon has been correct and the vessel ceased to be exempt as a barge as soon as it was fitted with "means of self-propulsion", even if it was often towed in practice.

In principle, there could be a reason why that does not apply.
If, and only if the barges drive is configured to be able to only stationkeep - it is no more a means of propulsion than an anchor.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/11/2016 02:01 pm
In principle, there could be a reason why that does not apply.
If, and only if the barges drive is configured to be able to only stationkeep - it is no more a means of propulsion than an anchor.

I searched through the regs and did not find any exception of this kind. (Not surprising, "drone ships" are pretty novel.  Most station-keeping vessels are manned.)

And re compliance: there is a mechanism for getting a temporary certificate of inspection, as I cited above, but otherwise no "grace period" defined in law. (Other than the "expiration at sea clauses", which I discussed above.) The "annual inspection" is different from the "drydock inspection", which is described in https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/91.40-3 (the actual section is slightly different depending on the exact classification assigned to the ASDS, but the language is much the same in each).  The "grace period" for drydocking is "two in five years but no more than three years between inspections".

And the ABS records (also cited above (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1547178.msg#1547178), but  this is a better link to use (http://www.eagle.org/safenet/record/record_vesselsearch?Accesstype=PUBLIC&ReferrerApplication=PUBLIC); enter MARMAC 304 in the vessel name field) are very clear about the Sept 15, 2016 dry dock due date for OCISLY, which also lines up with 3 years since its initial entrance to service.  So that seems to include the "grace period" already.  The due date is certainly in the very near future but not *that* imminent; no way IMO their late departure was due to that.

(The ABS records also explain my earlier use of a slightly earlier date: the OCISLY was "launched" August 30, 2013 (as I'd discovered from the McDonough Marine page) but "delivered" Sept 16, 2013; the inspection due date is 3 years (minus a day) past the "delivered" date, not the launch date. I'd assumed the initial drydock inspection must have happened at some date earlier than the launch date, but that doesn't seem to be the way the validity period is actually measured.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/11/2016 02:21 pm
I wonder what the crew of the Elsbeth III says when asked; "What do you do?"
..."I work on a tugboat, and we catch rockets." 😏😎

Those guys do an incredible job under difficult conditions.  Maybe NSF can come up with some way, sometime down the road, to let them know how much all of us ASDS stalkers appreciate the risks they take, and the great work they do.

I doubt they'd have a lot of use for an L2 membership (though you never know!), but maybe we can put our heads together and come up with something nice.  Like, organize an NSF get-together down in the Cape area and invite them, or something.  I dunno... just a thought.  :)

Really?  That is a little over the top.  The risks are not any different than other workers in the business.   Each spacecraft and launch vehicle group has personnel trained for hazardous operations.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 06/12/2016 02:23 pm
Go twins have left port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/12/2016 04:22 pm
If Elsbeth III's AIS is still turned off Friday morning, can someone try to get a visual? Because if she's still in port by mid-morning, something is wrong. Should have left ~12 hours ago.

Hoping they haven't been shut down by this Coast Guard drydock inspection thing.

If I remember correctly (a very big if) we've always seen some activity with the support ships a few hours or more before a sortie. I've checked on two sites, and both Elsbeth III and Go Quest haven't sent an AIS signal since the 7th.

My guess; either there's a launch delay they haven't announced yet, or OCISLY is mired in paperwork and won't be going out this time.

Looks like your guess of a launch slip was correct. OCISLY left port one day later than expected (Friday vs. Thursday) and the next day (Saturday) a one-day slip was announced. If these were related, they had to have known about the impending slip no later than Thursday in order to make the decision to delay ASDS departure, but for some reason didn't announce it until Saturday.

Suggestions have been made elsewhere that this was due to the NROL-37 Delta IV launch conflict.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 06/13/2016 02:38 pm
latest course and position of Elsbeth III W/ OCISLY
27.7083964,-77.6969556
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Helodriver on 06/14/2016 09:01 pm
While OCISLY enjoys floating out in the deep blue Atlantic getting ready to catch a rocket tomorrow, her sister JRTI floats wharf side in the Pacific with a black veiled friend who sports a familiar silhouette.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rocx on 06/14/2016 10:48 pm
Does that look more like a Dragon 1 or a Dragon 2? What do you think?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 06/14/2016 10:50 pm
Does that look more like a Dragon 1 or a Dragon 2? What do you think?

2.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Saabstory88 on 06/14/2016 11:07 pm
Does that look more like a Dragon 1 or a Dragon 2? What do you think?

I don't know, I don't see thruster pods, but it's hard to tell. That does look much more like the Berthing adapter than the Docking adapter, so I would vote for it being a Dragon 1.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Arb on 06/15/2016 12:18 am
It's been there a while has it not. For training the recovery crews, perhaps.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/15/2016 12:40 am
Any clues to whether JRtI has been away being inspected at a dry dock recently?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 06/17/2016 01:27 pm
MarineTraffic esitmates ASDS return for tomorrow afternoon.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 06/18/2016 02:48 am
Go twins are showing up on land based AIS on vesselfinder.com.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 06/18/2016 02:52 am
Both ships are making over 8 knots. Where's Elsbeth III?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/18/2016 03:42 am
Both ships are making over 8 knots. Where's Elsbeth III?

Probably plodding along behind at her usual 5 knots. Since OCISLY is carrying only debris, no need for the GO twins to hang around as escorts.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/18/2016 10:59 am
GO twins back in port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: hopalong on 06/18/2016 12:31 pm
Elsbeth III is now in range of the AIS stations, about 70NM south east of Port Canaveral.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/18/2016 12:56 pm
Elsbeth III is now in range of the AIS stations, about 70NM south east of Port Canaveral.

Looks like a probable late night arrival in port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OpelGT on 06/18/2016 08:18 pm
Elsbeth III is now in range of the AIS stations, about 70NM south east of Port Canaveral.

Looks like a probable late night arrival in port.

Just heard the Canaveral pilot talking to dredge in west basin about anchor lines
and he said there was a "CARGO VESSEL" scheduled to docki near the cranes about 3am EST (7am UDT)
which is probably OCISLY.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 06/18/2016 11:02 pm
Go Quest has left port and is on course to Elsbeth III.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 06/18/2016 11:05 pm
It's seriously hauling too, going at over 9 knots.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 06/19/2016 12:15 am
As of the last AIS update just a few minutes ago they are only about 4 standard miles from the mouth of the port!

Edit: I've never seen them updating so often, every 2 or 3 minutes. Wonder what that means. Coming in at 5.5 knots BTW.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 06/19/2016 12:29 am
TALLY HO

http://www.surfguru.com/florida-surf-reports-mobile/cocoa-beach-pier
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pb2000 on 06/19/2016 12:46 am
Passing into the harbor now on the surf cam.

Edit: Tough to see, but it appears there's a large chunk of debris.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cartman on 06/19/2016 12:52 am
Screenshot of the Jetty Cam from reddit user vaporcobra
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: tadaniels on 06/19/2016 12:55 am
It was very difficult to make out, but it appeared as if most, if not all, of S1 was lying on the deck with the aft (octoweb) middle-ish of the deck and the interstage toward the corner nearest the camera.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pb2000 on 06/19/2016 01:09 am
Looks like just the lump in the middle, which is probably what's left of the accordion (octaweb). Hopefully someone will be able to grab a better shot before it's hauled away.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 06/19/2016 01:19 am
For those that have Periscope, two currently live.
https://www.periscope.tv/w/1OdJrwQEDnpxX
https://www.periscope.tv/w/1djGXwDenAoKZ
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: overby on 06/19/2016 02:16 am
I looked at the PTZtv archive (portfever.com) and there are three shots of OCISLY at 9:02 PM.  I couldn't make out anything on the deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Bubbinski on 06/19/2016 02:33 am
Saw Alicia Murphy's Periscope and there was a big thing covered with tarp on the barge. Possibly octaweb/engines?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OpelGT on 06/19/2016 06:52 am
Saw Alicia Murphy's Periscope and there was a big thing covered with tarp on the barge. Possibly octaweb/engines?

Probably similar to the Jason-3 debris, strongest parts (engines & inter-stage) survived.

Here's pictures of the pieces from Jason-3 for comparison (http://for-all-mankind.tumblr.com/post/145061450672/jason-3-falcon-9-remains-spotted-in-california)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 06/19/2016 02:17 pm
Anyone going to be down by the Port today for debris pics?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 06/19/2016 04:46 pm
Not much left
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AncientU on 06/19/2016 04:53 pm
Could be most of the stage... someone just let the air out.

Engines/octoweb are still in the center of the target circle, which would put most of the horizontal stage on board.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pb2000 on 06/19/2016 06:49 pm
Thanks for grabbing the snap.

Looks far worse than the Jason-3 core, in terms of any sort of octaweb salvage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris_Pi on 06/19/2016 06:55 pm
Looks surprisingly intact for a tip-over. Previously internal pressure blew chunks of the tank skin all over the place and shredded it pretty thoroughly. This looks more like it just laid down and collapsed under it's own weight. The flattened-out section looks like it's still attached to the thrust structure/motors, Just with the uppermost part of torn off and collapsed flat on the deck. Could there be a fast pressure vent set to dump the tank pressure at touchdown down to limit flying debris or something?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 06/19/2016 07:20 pm
Looks surprisingly intact for a tip-over. Previously internal pressure blew chunks of the tank skin all over the place and shredded it pretty thoroughly. This looks more like it just laid down and collapsed under it's own weight. The flattened-out section looks like it's still attached to the thrust structure/motors, Just with the uppermost part of torn off and collapsed flat on the deck. Could there be a fast pressure vent set to dump the tank pressure at touchdown down to limit flying debris or something?
It's called the legs poking holes in the side :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 06/19/2016 07:58 pm
SpaceX - Booster Remains In Port - Eutelsat-ABS - 06-19-2016

USLaunchReport

Published on Jun 19, 2016
Today the wind blew off part of the tarps covering what is left of Eutelsat-ABS booster.

https://youtu.be/_FdS4osHmn4?t=001

https://youtu.be/_FdS4osHmn4
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris_Pi on 06/20/2016 01:46 am
It's called the legs poking holes in the side :)

Yeah, that was probably what did it. I'd just assumed it was the result of something intentional. Almost better it could work out that way -  It's free, completely automatic and can't unintentionally vent the tank if the stage lands undamaged.*

*Because tanks with big holes punched in them are pretty much by definition damaged.  :P It's not a bug, It's an undocumented zero-mass feature!
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/20/2016 04:17 am
Could be most of the stage... someone just let the air out.

Engines/octoweb are still in the center of the target circle, which would put most of the horizontal stage on board.

Well, that's one stage that won't need refurbishing. :)

Not that I'd expect there to be anything more than a few dents, but I do hope the deck isn't too badly damaged.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CorvusCorax on 06/20/2016 02:52 pm
Sadly, I fear the interstage didn't make it on board. That all looks like crumpled tankage to me.

Would have been useful to salvage the log files from the stage.

Is there any hints that they managed to retrieve the interstage? I thought the white thing on the sat image was it, but now it looks more like that was a piece of LOX tank.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yokem55 on 06/21/2016 12:05 am
Florida Today is reporting that Port Canaveral is looking to charge SpaceX $15,000 per returned core. SpaceX isn't happy. As had been mentioned, rocket cores are not a new thing at Port Canaveral (Shuttle SRB's, ULA stages) so its hard to see this as anything other than a bit of money grab... http://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/spacex/2016/06/20/spacex-may-face-port-canaveral-fee-booster-return/86135670/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JMS on 06/21/2016 12:25 am
Wow... floridatoday has a popup ridden obnoxious site.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OpelGT on 06/21/2016 02:00 am
Florida Today is reporting that Port Canaveral is looking to charge SpaceX $15,000 per returned core. SpaceX isn't happy. As had been mentioned, rocket cores are not a new thing at Port Canaveral (Shuttle SRB's, ULA stages) so its hard to see this as anything other than a bit of money grab... http://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/spacex/2016/06/20/spacex-may-face-port-canaveral-fee-booster-return/86135670/

They key sticking factor seems to be that the proposed port fee is 7x what anyone else pays
and the port isn't providing any special services or even the crane!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 06/21/2016 02:16 am
Florida Today is reporting that Port Canaveral is looking to charge SpaceX $15,000 per returned core. SpaceX isn't happy. As had been mentioned, rocket cores are not a new thing at Port Canaveral (Shuttle SRB's, ULA stages) so its hard to see this as anything other than a bit of money grab...

So they want to charge $500/ton for a 30-ton rocket stage 12' in diameter secured on 4 stands certainly spreading the load over a 20' square?   

Meanwhile for comparison (http://www.portcanaveral.com/PortCanaveral/media/Public-Docs/41st-Revised-Tariff-No-12-Effective-10-1-14.pdf), a single 20' Standard Cargo Container can hold 25-tons and wharfage is $28/ton.

18x does seem quite unrelated to the actual wear and tear on the port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 06/21/2016 04:03 am
Elon Musk -- sighing -- "Okay, how much will it cost to build our own little port just off Complex 39 on Merritt Island?  And will NASA lease the beachfront for the purpose?"

Don't tell me, I know, you can't just dredge a port out of a beachfront... sigh...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 06/21/2016 04:14 am
Florida Today is reporting that Port Canaveral is looking to charge SpaceX $15,000 per returned core. SpaceX isn't happy. As had been mentioned, rocket cores are not a new thing at Port Canaveral (Shuttle SRB's, ULA stages) so its hard to see this as anything other than a bit of money grab...

So they want to charge $500/ton for a 30-ton rocket stage 12' in diameter secured on 4 stands certainly spreading the load over a 20' square?   

Meanwhile for comparison (http://www.portcanaveral.com/PortCanaveral/media/Public-Docs/41st-Revised-Tariff-No-12-Effective-10-1-14.pdf), a single 20' Standard Cargo Container can hold 25-tons and wharfage is $28/ton.

18x does seem quite unrelated to the actual wear and tear on the port.

Wouldn't surprise me that San Pedro and Brownsville will jump on the bandwagon will do the same (IMHO).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OpelGT on 06/21/2016 04:18 am
Florida Today is reporting that Port Canaveral is looking to charge SpaceX $15,000 per returned core. SpaceX isn't happy. As had been mentioned, rocket cores are not a new thing at Port Canaveral (Shuttle SRB's, ULA stages) so its hard to see this as anything other than a bit of money grab...

So they want to charge $500/ton for a 30-ton rocket stage 12' in diameter secured on 4 stands certainly spreading the load over a 20' square?   
Meanwhile for comparison (http://www.portcanaveral.com/PortCanaveral/media/Public-Docs/41st-Revised-Tariff-No-12-Effective-10-1-14.pdf), a single 20' Standard Cargo Container can hold 25-tons and wharfage is $28/ton.
18x does seem quite unrelated to the actual wear and tear on the port.

They're acting like it's gonna crush the wharf, but what do you know
the rocket weighs a little more than a cargo container and is legally transported on the road from coast to coast.

(https://i.imgur.com/NVKsd4hl.jpg)

*** Never pick a fight with a stubborn billionaire  ;) ***
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Brovane on 06/21/2016 04:59 am
The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 06/21/2016 05:08 am
The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   

It's that same logic that keeps patent trolls in operation.

Elon needs to hire Lee Cheng from Newegg.com.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yokem55 on 06/21/2016 05:39 am
The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   

It's that same logic that keeps patent trolls in operation.

Elon needs to hire Lee Cheng from Newegg.com.
Its also aerospace industry pricing logic that Elon has hammered against for years. Just because something is 'aerospace' doesn't magically make it need to cost 10 times more.

The correct answer here is 'No' and giving in just invites more attempts to get shaken down. Now if the port can articulate what their additional security costs, then maybe SpaceX and the port can come to an arrangement, but 'just because' won't fly.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sfxtd on 06/21/2016 05:51 am

Its also aerospace industry pricing logic that Elon has hammered against for years. Just because something is 'aerospace' doesn't magically make it need to cost 10 times more.

The correct answer here is 'No' and giving in just invites more attempts to get shaken down. Now if the port can articulate what their additional security costs, then maybe SpaceX and the port can come to an arrangement, but 'just because' won't fly.

The Port's reply is essentially "What is this convenient berth worth to you and your low-volume, high-value cargo?" and the negotiation continues from there.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/21/2016 06:13 am
The correct answer here is 'No' and giving in just invites more attempts to get shaken down. Now if the port can articulate what their additional security costs, then maybe SpaceX and the port can come to an arrangement, but 'just because' won't fly.

The Port's reply is essentially "What is this convenient berth worth to you and your low-volume, high-value cargo?" and the negotiation continues from there.

I'm not sure that has anything to do with it - unless the Port can demonstrate a long line of customers waiting to use that particular berth.

As Yokem points out, the Port will need to justify why the extraordinary charge is required and after that, it's up to the two parties to come to some agreement.  If no agreement is reached, SpaceX will need to find another berth someplace else, 'cause the Port would be quite within their rights to kick them out for disturbing the peace and quiet of their pleasant little back-water every time the barge comes home from the sea. ;)

I do hope the Port ain't planning something as nefarious as using the $15k to pay for dedicated 24/7 web-cam coverage of each returned stage to increase their own online presence and popularity... 'cause the cost would be about right.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 06/21/2016 08:24 am
The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   
Wrong. It is in fact a fight worth fighting. If SpaceX decides to "just" pay the fee now, the port will be charging double next year. Greed is only stopped thru legal means.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Brovane on 06/21/2016 11:40 am
The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   
Wrong. It is in fact a fight worth fighting. If SpaceX decides to "just" pay the fee now, the port will be charging double next year. Greed is only stopped thru legal means.

You assume the fee the port wants to charge isn't reasonable. 

Negotiate a multi-year deal at a mutually agreed upon price and move on to more important matters. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 06/21/2016 12:56 pm
If it is 14x what other users are charged, would you accept it as reasonable?

There may be some extra issues with long loads (but not weight, that's absurd) and crane storage. But $15k each seems a little steep.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/21/2016 01:21 pm
If it is 14x what other users are charged, would you accept it as reasonable?

There may be some extra issues with long loads (but not weight, that's absurd) and crane storage. But $15k each seems a little steep.

Let's say the stage is worth $20M to SpaceX. $15,000/$20,000,000=0.00075. In other words, the $15k amounts to a 0.075% "import" tax.

A 0.075% tax? This is hardly Boston Tea Party material. They'll find some middle ground and move on.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gadgetmind on 06/21/2016 01:32 pm
In other words, the $15k amounts to a 0.075% "import" tax.

Maybe, but it was only "exported" 8 minutes earlier!

And would they charge this $15k for smoking debris like the SES-9 and Eutelsat/ABS stages?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/21/2016 01:54 pm
In other words, the $15k amounts to a 0.075% "import" tax.

Maybe, but it was only "exported" 8 minutes earlier!

And would they charge this $15k for smoking debris like the SES-9 and Eutelsat/ABS stages?

If they go by hook weight on the crane, probably a lot less than 30 tons for this small pile of debris, so maybe they get a 75% discount.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 06/21/2016 02:19 pm
If it is 14x what other users are charged, would you accept it as reasonable?

There may be some extra issues with long loads (but not weight, that's absurd) and crane storage. But $15k each seems a little steep.

Let's say the stage is worth $20M to SpaceX. $15,000/$20,000,000=0.00075. In other words, the $15k amounts to a 0.075% "import" tax.

A 0.075% tax? This is hardly Boston Tea Party material. They'll find some middle ground and move on.

I guessing it's not the amount SpaceX are complaining about, but the fact that they are being charged more than anyone else for the same sort of thing. That's simply unfair.

If I've got anything from Musk over the last 10 years, it's that he really doesn't like unfair pricing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: starsilk on 06/21/2016 02:49 pm
perhaps this will accelerate the plans to refuel and fly the stage back from the barge to land.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Mader Levap on 06/21/2016 04:11 pm
You assume the fee the port wants to charge isn't reasonable.
I see you ignored part where rate is 17 times of rate of other cargo.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DecoLV on 06/21/2016 04:13 pm
Is it trapped? Is there really no way to get the ASDS thru the 401 drawbridge? I assume SpaceX could otherwise find a way to build a facility somewhere on the Banana River if it really wanted to.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/21/2016 04:15 pm
quiet of their pleasant little back-water every time the barge comes home from the sea. ;)


It isn't a little back-water.  It was the 3rd (in 2014) and now likely the 2nd most busiest cruise port in the world.  That is their bread and butter.  Space related ops are just a novelty for the port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: georgegassaway on 06/21/2016 05:32 pm
perhaps this will accelerate the plans to refuel and fly the stage back from the barge to land.
Because it would be a LOT CHEAPER to fly it back to land than $15k.

Uh, no, wait......

Anyway, the $15k fee would be ridiculous. May be a ploy as the high end number for a negotiation.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 06/21/2016 05:54 pm
Not pointing fingers at anyone, but this reeks of an uninformed, emotional profiling-type response to the whole stink about how PortTV started calling all of us SpaceX fans an "undesirable criminal element" and as such we were tainting any SpaceX activities in the port by our unwholesome interest in them.

Especially if one of the stated reasons is that the port feels they need to heighten security while a Falcon stage is in port.  Again, that makes it sound like they feel having such a stage in port is an attractive nuisance that brings in an unwelcome, unsavory and security-challenging element that would not otherwise be the case.

Just sayin'...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 06/21/2016 06:14 pm
The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   
Seems like extortionate pricing if it's far higher than everyone else.  If you pay Danegelt, you get more Danes...

(I for one am glad the Danes switched from being Vikings to making the finest toy the world has ever known[1], but that's just me)

<---- which I happen to own a little bit of :)

1 - LEGO, did you really need to ask???
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 06/21/2016 09:29 pm
The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   
Seems like extortionate pricing if it's far higher than everyone else.  If you pay Danegelt, you get more Danes...

(I for one am glad the Danes switched from being Vikings to making the finest toy the world has ever known[1], but that's just me)

<---- which I happen to own a little bit of :)

1 - LEGO, did you really need to ask???

It wasn't so much a switch as an add-on.

(http://www.medievalists.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lego-viking.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: starsilk on 06/21/2016 09:50 pm
perhaps this will accelerate the plans to refuel and fly the stage back from the barge to land.
Because it would be a LOT CHEAPER to fly it back to land than $15k.

Uh, no, wait......

fuel is cheap.

and the scales just got tipped $15K towards fly-back, which they already wanted to do anyway (speed, less exposure to salt water, weather damage, etc).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/21/2016 11:52 pm

fuel is cheap.

and the scales just got tipped $15K towards fly-back, which they already wanted to do anyway (speed, less exposure to salt water, weather damage, etc).

As the latest landing attempt indicated, they're a long ways from fly-back right now.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 06/22/2016 12:30 am

fuel is cheap.

and the scales just got tipped $15K towards fly-back, which they already wanted to do anyway (speed, less exposure to salt water, weather damage, etc).

As the latest landing attempt indicated, they're a long ways from fly-back right now.
RTLS or self-ferrying from the barge back to the launch site?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 06/22/2016 01:18 am

fuel is cheap.

and the scales just got tipped $15K towards fly-back, which they already wanted to do anyway (speed, less exposure to salt water, weather damage, etc).

As the latest landing attempt indicated, they're a long ways from fly-back right now.
RTLS or self-ferrying from the barge back to the launch site?

RTLS as the usual CONOPS is a lot closer, with F9 1.2.xwyxzwtfbbq Full(er) Thrust and/or the switch to FH for largish payloads, than self-ferrying. There are SO many pragmatic, operational issues with self-ferrying that I honestly don't expect to see anything like it for at least 10 years.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: raketa on 06/22/2016 01:54 am

fuel is cheap.

and the scales just got tipped $15K towards fly-back, which they already wanted to do anyway (speed, less exposure to salt water, weather damage, etc).

As the latest landing attempt indicated, they're a long ways from fly-back right now.
I don't think so, they are very close if they have enough fuel.
How much fuel falcon 9 need to return safely to landing side?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 06/22/2016 02:05 am
They were about 1000 kg of payload too heavy to be able to RTLS. More like 1600 kg too heavy if it going to that higher energy orbit.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/22/2016 05:20 am
I don't think so, they are very close if they have enough fuel.
How much fuel falcon 9 need to return safely to landing side?

They have yet to demonstrate ANY attempt to refuel, leave alone re-fly, a landed stage at sea.

In fact the total lack of any provision in the current ASDS design/layout or on any of the support ships for transportable RP-1/LOX storage and loading facilities makes me wonder if they actually ever plan to do anything other than ferry any landed stages back to Port the way they currently do.

..but what would I know?  I'm just sittin' in my armchair watching all this from the other side of the world. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gadgetmind on 06/22/2016 09:12 am
Especially if one of the stated reasons is that the port feels they need to heighten security while a Falcon stage is in port.

That's actually a valid reason to charge more, unlike mentioning weight, which came across as deeply bogus.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Barrie on 06/22/2016 10:04 am
Especially if one of the stated reasons is that the port feels they need to heighten security while a Falcon stage is in port.

That's actually a valid reason to charge more, unlike mentioning weight, which came across as deeply bogus.

Yes, and I get the impression that the arrival of an ASDS might take a disproportionate amount of attention from pilots and harbour masters.  There are several vessels involved, and several large vehicles on the land side of things.  They need to negotiate a fair return for the port authority.

Gearing the charges to the weight of the stage seems really lame.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: foragefarmer on 06/22/2016 10:18 am
Especially if one of the stated reasons is that the port feels they need to heighten security while a Falcon stage is in port.

That's actually a valid reason to charge more, unlike mentioning weight, which came across as deeply bogus.

Yes, and I get the impression that the arrival of an ASDS might take a disproportionate amount of attention from pilots and harbour masters.  There are several vessels involved, and several large vehicles on the land side of things.  They need to negotiate a fair return for the port authority.

Gearing the charges to the weight of the stage seems really lame.

There is already provision in the fee schedule for the port to require added security and have Spacex pay for it.

People should read this http://www.portcanaveral.com/tariffs.aspx before they comment. Everything is charged out and accounted for. Daily docking fees are charged by the foot and the minimum one day fee is $271.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/22/2016 02:34 pm
Meanwhile, in other ASDS news: it looks like CRS-9 will be an RTLS mission, so OCISLY will be idle until JCSAT-16, if she doesn't get sent off to drydock for inspection in the interim.

FCC has posted the JCSAT-16 transmitter permit application here:

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=72213&RequestTimeout=1000

Drone ship coordinates are:

28 6 11 N
74 34 0 W

This is about 45 miles west of the JCSAT-14 coordinates, ie closer to the Cape, which should mean better survival odds for the stage.

Update: AMOS-6 launch date was just announced as August 22. So this permit may be for AMOS-6, which is listed as 5500 kg. That's 700 kg more than JCSAT-14, which could explain the big difference in ASDS positions.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 06/22/2016 02:51 pm
JCSAT-14 went to 189 x 35957 km x 23.70° transfer orbit. How much will that come down if they stage earlier to land 45 miles shorter. Or do you think the 2nd stage has some extra available performance?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edkyle99 on 06/22/2016 04:34 pm
You assume the fee the port wants to charge isn't reasonable.
I see you ignored part where rate is 17 times of rate of other cargo.
I don't think it fair to compare the unloading of a cargo ship, which enters, unloads, and departs, with the SpaceX operation.  SpaceX has the landing platform and, what, two other ships that are docked in the port when they are not out at sea.  There's is a long-term presence.  They have had to deal with leaking kerosene and other stuff, deploying booms, etc. 

How much did the port charge NASA for the SRB recovery ships?

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zach Swena on 06/22/2016 05:05 pm
You assume the fee the port wants to charge isn't reasonable.
I see you ignored part where rate is 17 times of rate of other cargo.
I don't think it fair to compare the unloading of a cargo ship, which enters, unloads, and departs, with the SpaceX operation.  SpaceX has the landing platform and, what, two other ships that are docked in the port when they are not out at sea.  There's is a long-term presence.  They have had to deal with leaking kerosene and other stuff, deploying booms, etc. 

How much did the port charge NASA for the SRB recovery ships?

 - Ed Kyle

Wouldn't that fall under a monthly per square ft fee rather then a per booster fee?  Also, the kerosine leaks would be more likely when unloading a damaged booster, rather then what sounds like a fee for each recovered booster...  Fuel and hydrolic leaks are also something they have to deal with for any boat that comes in for repair on those types of systems.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: LastStarFighter on 06/22/2016 05:24 pm
You assume the fee the port wants to charge isn't reasonable.
I see you ignored part where rate is 17 times of rate of other cargo.
I don't think it fair to compare the unloading of a cargo ship, which enters, unloads, and departs, with the SpaceX operation.  SpaceX has the landing platform and, what, two other ships that are docked in the port when they are not out at sea.  There's is a long-term presence.  They have had to deal with leaking kerosene and other stuff, deploying booms, etc. 

How much did the port charge NASA for the SRB recovery ships?

 - Ed Kyle

I agree... A cargo ship comes in, ties the dock up for a day and unloads 100 of the 25t containers? Each of those getting taxed adds up fast. SpaceX comes in and ties up the dock for a day and unloads one 35t hazardous stage with a giant crane. Seems like the port authority folks are just trying to get paid fairly for usage. Unloading cargo ships and a rocket stage aren't apples to apples so I wouldn't expect the costs to be. If every cargo ship spent a day in port unloading one container I would think the port authority would charge them just as much as SpaceX.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/22/2016 05:25 pm

I agree... A cargo ship comes in, ties the dock up for a day and unloads 100 of the 25t containers? Each of those getting taxed adds up fast. SpaceX comes in and ties up the dock for a day and unloads one 35t hazardous stage with a giant crane.

The docks is tied up for weeks between launches.   The only time it is not at the dock is for the few days each launch retrieving a booster.    And what is tied up is one barge, one tug and 2 support boats.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: LastStarFighter on 06/22/2016 05:39 pm

I agree... A cargo ship comes in, ties the dock up for a day and unloads 100 of the 25t containers? Each of those getting taxed adds up fast. SpaceX comes in and ties up the dock for a day and unloads one 35t hazardous stage with a giant crane.

The docks is tied up for weeks between launches.   The only time it is not at the dock is for the few days each launch retrieving a booster.    And what is tied up is one barge, one tug and 2 support boats.

To be honest I'm surprised the Port Authority doesn't charge more.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 06/22/2016 05:45 pm
The docks is tied up for weeks between launches.   The only time it is not at the dock is for the few days each launch retrieving a booster.    And what is tied up is one barge, one tug and 2 support boats.

Don't you think there are charges for all of that already in place?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zach Swena on 06/22/2016 05:51 pm
Still, if it is because of the dock area used, shouldn't Spacex be charged a parking fee regardless of the number of boosters recovered?  What type of operation require a charge per booster?  So far I have security, which spacex already is billed for.  What else?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 06/22/2016 06:42 pm
Still, if it is because of the dock area used, shouldn't Spacex be charged a parking fee regardless of the number of boosters recovered?  What type of operation require a charge per booster?  So far I have security, which spacex already is billed for.  What else?

Dockage is the charge for tying up charged per linear foot of overall length along the longest dimension
Cargo Grid Yard Area is the charge for dock area and is charged $811 per grid per 15 days
Wharfage is the charge for weight of cargo and is charged per ton based on various categories of material

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 06/22/2016 08:02 pm
Presumably SpaceX already pay dockage, so would it be correct to say this $15k is in addition to that?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mvpel on 06/22/2016 08:07 pm
Presumably SpaceX already pay dockage, so would it be correct to say this $15k is in addition to that?

Or maybe they're adding another category to the wharfage price table above, so instead of falling under the "Not Otherwise Specified" $3.02 per ton rate, they're adding a "Orbital Boosters, Used" category and charging $500 per ton for it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 06/22/2016 08:32 pm
Florida Today is reporting that Port Canaveral is looking to charge SpaceX $15,000 per returned core. SpaceX isn't happy. As had been mentioned, rocket cores are not a new thing at Port Canaveral (Shuttle SRB's, ULA stages) so its hard to see this as anything other than a bit of money grab...

So they want to charge $500/ton for a 30-ton rocket stage 12' in diameter secured on 4 stands certainly spreading the load over a 20' square?   

Meanwhile for comparison (http://www.portcanaveral.com/PortCanaveral/media/Public-Docs/41st-Revised-Tariff-No-12-Effective-10-1-14.pdf), a single 20' Standard Cargo Container can hold 25-tons and wharfage is $28/ton.

18x does seem quite unrelated to the actual wear and tear on the port.

Not sure if this was pointed out, but wharfage for containers is $28 or $35 EACH, not per ton. Trucks over 10,000lbs gross are $22 each. The highest per ton rate specifically called out is $3.02, or 1/166th of the aerospace rate.

http://www.portcanaveral.com/PortCanaveral/media/Business-With-Us-Tariffs/Canaveral-Port-Authority-Tariff14.pdf
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rayleighscatter on 06/22/2016 09:06 pm
Dockworkers unions also get a portion of the value of goods that pass through. This is a big part of the reason why 30 tons of coal and 30 tons of rocket have different rates. And if they're required to pay the federal HMF (I think they are) they also have to pay 0.125% of the value of the goods to the US gov't.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 06/22/2016 10:15 pm
Not sure if this was pointed out, but wharfage for containers is $28 or $35 EACH, not per ton. Trucks over 10,000lbs gross are $22 each. The highest per ton rate specifically called out is $3.02, or 1/166th of the aerospace rate.

http://www.portcanaveral.com/PortCanaveral/media/Business-With-Us-Tariffs/Canaveral-Port-Authority-Tariff14.pdf

Good Catch!!!  Totally missed that.   



Or maybe they're adding another category to the wharfage price table above, so instead of falling under the "Not Otherwise Specified" $3.02 per ton rate, they're adding a "Orbital Boosters, Used" category and charging $500 per ton for it?

The price they are charging sounds more like they are considering it:

"Passenger Cruise Liner, Interplanetary, Experimental"
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Confusador on 06/22/2016 10:20 pm
Dockworkers unions also get a portion of the value of goods that pass through. This is a big part of the reason why 30 tons of coal and 30 tons of rocket have different rates. And if they're required to pay the federal HMF (I think they are) they also have to pay 0.125% of the value of the goods to the US gov't.

That seems to be Harbor Maintenance Fee (https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/283/~/harbor-maintenance-fees-(hmf)), not Hypergol Maintenance Facility.

Quote
HMF is only collected on imports, domestic shipments, Foreign-Trade Zone (FTZ) admissions, and passengers. They are required to pay .125% of the value of the commercial cargo shipped through identified ports.  HMF is not collected on cargo imported or transported via air.

Assuming this counts as "domestic shipments" and depending on how you value the stage, that could be $25,000-50,000.  If that's the fee being referred to, it might actually be reasonable.  FL Today did refer to it specifically as a "cargo wharfage charge" but as we've seen that it's orders of magnitude out of line for that I don't think it's the whole story.

And I am amused that flybacks are explicitly exempt.  Things I didn't expect to learn today...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/23/2016 12:09 am
According to the Spacenews article:
Quote
The proposed fee, to be considered at a Canaveral Port Authority meeting this week, is intended to cover the costs to the port of handling the stage, which is returned to port on SpaceX’s autonomous spaceport drone ship after the stage lands at sea.

http://spacenews.com/spacex-balks-at-canaverals-proposed-15000-port-fees/ (http://spacenews.com/spacex-balks-at-canaverals-proposed-15000-port-fees/)

I hope that helps clear this up.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 06/23/2016 01:19 am
Another space-related issue that was to be discussed & decided upon at the Port Authority's meeting today was whether or not to terminate an agreement between NASA & Port Canaveral to extend NASA's 17 miles of rail lines by 11 miles into the Port. Florida East Coast Railway definitely wants it, the environmentalists don't, and expanding cargo services was the former Port CEO's vision. Sounds to me like the $15K charge is the new admin looking for shortcuts as a substitute for the former CEO's grand vision. And this is potentially not just about SpaceX, so even if SpaceX can presumably afford it, can NASA down the road, or the newer and/or smaller rocket companies? Maybe not, and probably part of SpaceX's motivation for protesting. Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville keywords "Port Canaveral".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/23/2016 01:40 am
And this is potentially not just about SpaceX, so even though SpaceX can presumably afford it, can NASA down the road, or the newer and/or smaller rocket companies?

NASA and most other rocket companies (especially smaller one) would have little use for the Port.  ULA has been using the port since 2000 for Delta IV
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 06/23/2016 02:03 am
And this is potentially not just about SpaceX, so even though SpaceX can presumably afford it, can NASA down the road, or the newer and/or smaller rocket companies?

NASA and most other rocket companies (especially smaller one) would have little use for the Port.  ULA has been using the port since 2000 for Delta IV

From the JBJ articles it sounded like the idea was to solicit NASA & other rocket companies to rely more on the Port in place of other, more expensive forms of transportation.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rcoppola on 06/23/2016 02:36 am
According to the Spacenews article:
Quote
The proposed fee, to be considered at a Canaveral Port Authority meeting this week, is intended to cover the costs to the port of handling the stage, which is returned to port on SpaceX’s autonomous spaceport drone ship after the stage lands at sea.

http://spacenews.com/spacex-balks-at-canaverals-proposed-15000-port-fees/ (http://spacenews.com/spacex-balks-at-canaverals-proposed-15000-port-fees/)

I hope that helps clear this up.
Hmmm. I wonder who called Mr. Murray and told him to take this whole thing down a notch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/23/2016 12:54 pm

From the JBJ articles it sounded like the idea was to solicit NASA & other rocket companies to rely more on the Port in place of other, more expensive forms of transportation.

NASA has its own docks at LC-39.  NASA barges just pass through the port.  There are 3 areas on KSC and CCAFS barges and boats can berth at.  LC-39 turnaround basin, Hangar AF Pier and the ITL landing (which hasn't been used in awhile).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 06/23/2016 01:14 pm

From the JBJ articles it sounded like the idea was to solicit NASA & other rocket companies to rely more on the Port in place of other, more expensive forms of transportation.

NASA has its own docks at LC-39.  NASA barges just pass through the port.  There are 3 areas on KSC and CCAFS barges and boats can berth at.  LC-39 turnaround basin, Hangar AF Pier and the ITL landing (which hasn't been used in awhile).

Would it make sense for SpaceX to try to move their operations to one of these dock facilities?  What do the transport options look like from them?  I'm assuming there are roads capable of moving an empty Falcon stage from each of these docking areas, not just rail stubs, but you know the Cape a heck of a lot better than most of us do, Jim.

I'm just thinking out loud as to whether or not SpaceX has other options for their ASDS operations, or if the Port Canaveral authorities literally have them tightly over a barrel on this one...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/23/2016 01:16 pm

Would it make sense for SpaceX to try to move their operations to one of these dock facilities? 

I believe the ASDS is too wide to use the lock to get to these areas.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 06/23/2016 01:27 pm

Would it make sense for SpaceX to try to move their operations to one of these dock facilities? 

I believe the ASDS is too wide to use the lock to get to these areas.

Drat.  And yeah, I believe there are a couple of drawbridges to be negotiated to get to the turning basin, as well -- at least, I know I've seen a picture of an S-II stage being barged in to the LC-39 dock, moving under a raised drawbridge.  That wouldn't necessarily be a constraint on the height of a Falcon stage on an ASDS -- but I never thought about the width of the lock.

Thanks for the info, anyway.  But again... drat.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rcoppola on 06/23/2016 03:12 pm
Well...this is probably why they called off that meeting. Seems there are bigger ideas on how to use the Port. If true, it also sheds some light on where they'll be keeping some of these stages as they return as opposed to piling them up at either McGregor or the 39A HIF.

http://www.fox35orlando.com/news/local-news/164663415-story

(If I had to guess, I'd say Bruce Deardoff from the board called Murray and asked him to table that fee amount for now as there is a larger opportunity at hand.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/23/2016 04:21 pm
Well...this is probably why they called off that meeting. Seems there are bigger ideas on how to use the Port. If true, it also sheds some light on where they'll be keeping some of these stages as they return as opposed to piling them up at either McGregor or the 39A HIF.

http://www.fox35orlando.com/news/local-news/164663415-story

(If I had to guess, I'd say Bruce Deardoff from the board called Murray and asked him to table that fee amount for now as there is a larger opportunity at hand.)

I like that closing line... 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: chrisking0997 on 06/23/2016 04:49 pm
is all the debris removed from OCISLY yet?  If so, any pics of the deck?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: brettreds2k on 06/23/2016 09:17 pm
Well...this is probably why they called off that meeting. Seems there are bigger ideas on how to use the Port. If true, it also sheds some light on where they'll be keeping some of these stages as they return as opposed to piling them up at either McGregor or the 39A HIF.

http://www.fox35orlando.com/news/local-news/164663415-story

(If I had to guess, I'd say Bruce Deardoff from the board called Murray and asked him to table that fee amount for now as there is a larger opportunity at hand.)

That article says retrieved boosters are stored in a Air force storage building, No they arent, they go to LC39A to their own building.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/23/2016 10:02 pm
OCISLY drydock update:

We have a report from the Grand Bahama Shipyard that they expect OCISLY to arrive there sometime next week for her Coast Guard mandated drydock inspection. Apparently they do cruise ship repairs and have a drydock wide enough to fit her wingspan. While in drydock, OCISLY may have a bottom plate replaced from the SES-9 impact, plus routine anode replacement, painting, thruster checkout, etc.

She will also reportedly have her bottom plates numbered in order to make her eligible for the Coast Guard's UWILD (Underwater Inspection in Lieu of Drydock) program.

Not clear now long this is expected to take, but source seems to think it's not a big deal for this shipyard to handle, so it sounds like chances are good she'll be back in business in time to catch the next GTO launch.

http://grandbahamashipyard.com
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/23/2016 10:16 pm
And in other aerospace barge news, last week someone spotted this Apollo 19 Saturn V stage being transported on OCISLY's little sister (U 792) from NASA Michoud to NASA's INFINITY Science Center at Stennis for permanent display.

Unfortunately, this is one barged rocket that will never fly again.  :(

http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/transport-of-saturn-v-rocket-stage-to-stennis-space-center-a-matter-of-real-history
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/23/2016 11:57 pm
Not clear now long this is expected to take, but source seems to think it's not a big deal for this shipyard to handle, so it sounds like chances are good she'll be back in business in time to catch the next GTO launch.

Not sure about this particular shipyard, but typically, world-wide:  If the bottom plating is fine = say 1 week.  If a bottom plate needs replacing (or any other below-water repair required) = say 2 weeks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 06/24/2016 12:32 pm
crossposting from reusable rockets thread. Can someone do a pin drop on Google maps to show where ASDS currently moors in the Port?

SpaceX looking to build a refurb facility on the North side of Port Canaveral. I imagine this would include their own mooring for the ASDS:

http://www.fox35orlando.com/news/local-news/164663415-story

PORT CANAVERAL, Fla. (WOFL FOX 35) - Port Canaveral staff are currently in negotiations with aerospace company SpaceX to lease land on the north side of the inlet where a possible facility to refurbish rockets would be built, according to one Port Authority Commissioner.

Bruce Deardoff, who represents district four, says SpaceX has expressed interest in leasing several acres at the Port where a facility could be built to receive, house, and refurbish Falcon 9 boosters after they land at sea on the aerospace company's autonomous drone ship.

"I think we are going to find a great solution to what they need," said Deardoff.

Port Commissioner: SpaceX negotiating Port lease to refurbish rocket boosters
Currently, SpaceX retrieves the landed boosters and then stores them in an Air Force warehouse. If a deal is struck, SpaceX could create a steady loop of boosters launched from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station and then refurbish several miles away at the Port. A possible deal could also bring more aerospace jobs to the area to support the refurbishment activities. But one point of contention in the early negotiations between the two parties is the Port's initial assessment of a federally required dock fee.

Capt. John Murray, Port Canaveral's CEO, says his staff settled on a fee of $15,000 for each rocket booster docked at the Port. The amount, he says, was based on research into comparable fees for aerospace parts and equipment. But after commissioners pulled the item from discussion at a Wednesday commission meeting, Murray said he was willing to reconsider a lower amount during a private meeting with SpaceX representatives that was scheduled to follow the public meeting.

"We are really excited to have them in the Port," said Captain Murray about the fast growing space company SpaceX, "and we are excited about the business they are bringing to the community. This is just an ongoing discussion that will continue."

SpaceX spokesperson John Taylor would not confirm the content of the meeting with Port Canaveral staff, but did say representatives of the company participated in a private meeting with Port Canaveral Staff.

According to Commissioner Deardoff, SpaceX's goal in three years is to launch an average of 90 rockets a year.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/24/2016 12:37 pm
Quote
Can someone do a pin drop on Google maps to show where ASDS currently moors in the Port?

Here you go.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 06/24/2016 12:49 pm
Here you go.

Thanks. 2 thoughts:

1. I imagine that long term the port wants them off the cargo terminal as shipping into the port increases. I dont know where they could move to though.

2. I wonder if SpaceX might also be talking with the Navy about leasing space on their portion of the port for the mooring and refurb facility. I dont think the Poseidon Wharf is in active service.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zpoxy on 06/24/2016 01:14 pm
Sorry Kabloona, that map is wrong. The Trident Basin is on the north east side of the port. The West Turning Basin is where the majority of the big cruise ships are located.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/24/2016 01:28 pm
Quote
Sorry Kabloona, that map is wrong. The Trident Basin is on the north east side of the port. The West Turning Basin is where the majority of the big cruise ships are located.

Yes, the basins are labeled incorrectly by Apple Maps, but the pin I put down is in fact where the ASDS docks, which was the original question.

On your (much better) map, it's right by the cranes at the container terminal.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/24/2016 01:34 pm

SpaceX looking to build a refurb facility on the North side of Port Canaveral. I imagine this would include their own mooring for the ASDS:


There is no room for a dedicated berth.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/24/2016 01:35 pm
I dont think the Poseidon Wharf is in active service.

Yes, it is
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 06/24/2016 01:50 pm

There is no room for a dedicated berth.

Who is using North Cargo Berth 88? Has it been developed yet? All the aerial photos I have found still show it undeveloped. Looks like a big enough plot for the refurb facility and its interesting that the port map shows a long curving road out of the plot. Almost like an extra long truck would need to make a turn there....

With two, maybe 3 ASDS's home ported here in the future it sure seems like they will need to find space for a dedicated berth....

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 06/24/2016 02:10 pm
With two, maybe 3 ASDS's home ported here in the future it sure seems like they will need to find space for a dedicated berth....

Where did you come up with the idea of another one or two barges for SpaceX on the east coast? So far we've seen no indication of that being a thing anytime in the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 06/24/2016 02:51 pm
is all the debris removed from OCISLY yet?  If so, any pics of the deck?

Anything?

EDIT: this was posted to Youtube on June 22nd, but I don't think it was ever reported here.  Shows octoweb chunk being lifted off the barge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SRhuQji2nw
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OpelGT on 06/25/2016 08:07 am
Who is using North Cargo Berth 88? Has it been developed yet? All the aerial photos I have found still show it undeveloped. Looks like a big enough plot for the refurb facility and its interesting that the port map shows a long curving road out of the plot. Almost like an extra long truck would need to make a turn there....

With two, maybe 3 ASDS's home ported here in the future it sure seems like they will need to find space for a dedicated berth....

Here's a link to the  2015 Port Canaveral Development Plan (http://www.portcanaveral.com/PortCanaveral/media/Publications/Dev-Plans-Brochure-Map.pdf)
NCB88 is for a proposed auto/rail new car marine terminal that is waiting for more interest.

My options in order of likelihood are:
Container Terminal Phase II which isn't finished and is right next door;
NCB1 in the Middle Turning Basin (but this might be a Morton Salt dock);
proposed Auto/rail new car marine terminal past Coast Guard station at NCB88;
Army Transportation Dock in Middle Turning Basin &
North side of newly widened entry channel on Cape Canaveral Air Force Station property
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/25/2016 10:43 am

My options in order of likelihood are:
1.  Container Terminal Phase II which isn't finished and is right next door;
2.  NCB1 in the Middle Turning Basin (but this might be a Morton Salt dock);
3.  proposed Auto/rail new car marine terminal past Coast Guard station at NCB88;
4.  Army Transportation Dock in Middle Turning Basin &
5.  North side of newly widened entry channel on Cape Canaveral Air Force Station property

1. That is for containers and hence no more available than current location
2.  It is the Morton dock and it is constantly in use.  either tankers or ROROs (see #3) are there.
3.  The port does get many car carriers and so this is very likely.  BTW, it is NCB8.
4.  Its the Army's and not available long term
5. That isn't going to be a place to berth.  Just a wider channel.  And the area is where most of the spoils from the Trident turn basis went .  Very high banks and land.   Also, it is on the Cape which Spacex is avoiding.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 06/25/2016 11:06 am
5. That isn't going to be a place to berth.  Just a wider channel.  And the area is where most of the spoils from the Trident turn basis went .  Very high banks and land.   Also, it is on the Cape which Spacex is avoiding.
Meaning that that area is land pertaining to the Air Force Station, right?  Since from where I sit, Port Canaveral is on the Cape, at least in a geographical sense.

Why would SpaceX be avoiding CCAFS land?  Too much oversight, or some other reason?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/25/2016 01:48 pm
Why would SpaceX be avoiding CCAFS land?  Too much oversight, or some other reason?

yes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/25/2016 02:00 pm
5. That isn't going to be a place to berth.  Just a wider channel.  And the area is where most of the spoils from the Trident turn basis went .  Very high banks and land.   Also, it is on the Cape which Spacex is avoiding.
Meaning that that area is land pertaining to the Air Force Station, right?  Since from where I sit, Port Canaveral is on the Cape, at least in a geographical sense.

Look on Zpoxy's map above. CCAFS "owns" the land to the right of the white dotted line at the middle turning basin.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 06/25/2016 03:31 pm
So its been reported the OCISLY is off to the Bahamas for repairs and USCG inspection. Does the USCG do inspections in foreign ports? Surprised me.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 06/25/2016 03:44 pm
So its been reported the OCISLY is off to the Bahamas for repairs and USCG inspection. Does the USCG do inspections in foreign ports? Surprised me.
Or do they do what happens in my state with Driver's License Exams?  Subcontract the job to trusted vendors, that is.  I would think that these past few days notwithstanding, the USA has a good working relationship with and trust in England and most of the countries of its Commonwealth.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Pete on 06/25/2016 03:55 pm
Yes, the basins are labeled incorrectly by Apple Maps, but the pin I put down is in fact where the ASDS docks, which was the original question.

Ah, Apple maps.
'nuff said.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsnellenberger on 06/25/2016 09:55 pm
OCISLY drydock update:

We have a report from the Grand Bahama Shipyard that they expect OCISLY to arrive there sometime next week for her Coast Guard mandated drydock inspection. Apparently they do cruise ship repairs and have a drydock wide enough to fit her wingspan. While in drydock, OCISLY may have a bottom plate replaced from the SES-9 impact, plus routine anode replacement, painting, thruster checkout, etc.

She will also reportedly have her bottom plates numbered in order to make her eligible for the Coast Guard's UWILD (Underwater Inspection in Lieu of Drydock) program.

Not clear now long this is expected to take, but source seems to think it's not a big deal for this shipyard to handle, so it sounds like chances are good she'll be back in business in time to catch the next GTO launch.

http://grandbahamashipyard.com

Video documentary about 2003 dry-docking of Royal Caribbean's "Radiance of the Seas" at the Grand Bahamas shipyard (part 1):

https://youtu.be/4cOgD9tupa8
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/25/2016 10:08 pm
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/25/2016 10:12 pm
Go Searcher is moving
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/25/2016 10:32 pm
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 06/26/2016 12:12 am
From Jim's pic posted up above...
Looks like OCISLY is being or has been de-ballasted for it's trip to the dry dock...
Floating high in the water...  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OpelGT on 06/26/2016 01:08 am

My options in order of likelihood are:
1.  Container Terminal Phase II which isn't finished and is right next door;
2.  NCB1 in the Middle Turning Basin (but this might be a Morton Salt dock);
3.  Proposed Auto/rail new car marine terminal past Coast Guard station at NCB88;
4.  Army Transportation Dock in Middle Turning Basin &
5.  North side of newly widened entry channel on Cape Canaveral Air Force Station property

1. That is for containers and hence no more available than current location
2.  It is the Morton dock and it is constantly in use.  either tankers or ROROs (see #3) are there.
3.  The port does get many car carriers and so this is very likely.  BTW, it is NCB8.
4.  Its the Army's and not available long term
5. That isn't going to be a place to berth.  Just a wider channel.  And the area is where most of the spoils from the Trident turn basis went .  Very high banks and land.   Also, it is on the Cape which Spacex is avoiding.

1. NCB5 is nothing but a parking lot (https://www.flickr.com/photos/gotreehugger/27328266992/in/photostream/) and they don't even have enough containers for phase I
3. NCB8 is close to Cruise Terminal CT5 and proposed location of a RO/RO Car transfer facility (http://www.portcanaveral.com/About/Projects-Plans).  But possible
4. There is unused seawall between Army dock and Naval Ordinance dock.
    Plus very close to SpaceX Cape offices (https://www.google.com/maps/place/SpaceX+Cape/@28.4158655,-80.6071514,665m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x87ac9af0f05b1cff!8m2!3d28.4171958!4d-80.6049091) & Air Force Space & Missile History Center (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Air+Force+Space+and+Missile+History+Center/@28.4150021,-80.6082404,1330m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x8beca877726d0621!8m2!3d28.4172206!4d-80.6045008), perfect tie-in!
5. Is unlikely but is just empty land with a forest (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Trevor+woodS+forest/@28.4122372,-80.6012237,665m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x5e839b3b048c5a!8m2!3d28.4136862!4d-80.5981714), and they could dig ADLS dock inland.
    Plus ASDL could maneuver itself into cut-out docking area in berm.
6. Figure out how to get ASDL through 90' wide Barge Canal into Banana River and back to KSC
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 06/26/2016 04:19 am
OCISLY drydock update:
She will also reportedly have her bottom plates numbered in order to make her eligible for the Coast Guard's UWILD (Underwater Inspection in Lieu of Drydock) program.

I wonder if there might be a similar reason that a commercial diver doing underwater construction in Louisiana later told his old girlfriend cutting my hair in Atlanta GA last month that he was working for SpaceX out in California. She didn't know exactly what he was doing for SpaceX and I couldn't figure it out at the time either, but maybe JRTI already has her numbers.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/26/2016 11:47 am
OCISLY drydock update:
She will also reportedly have her bottom plates numbered in order to make her eligible for the Coast Guard's UWILD (Underwater Inspection in Lieu of Drydock) program.

I wonder if there might be a similar reason that a commercial diver doing underwater construction in Louisiana later told his old girlfriend cutting my hair in Atlanta GA last month that he was working for SpaceX out in California. She didn't know exactly what he was doing for SpaceX and I couldn't figure it out at the time either, but maybe JRTI already has her numbers.

No, source says JRtI will be numbered when she gets drydocked next.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/26/2016 04:17 pm

1. NCB5 is nothing but a parking lot and they don't even have enough containers for phase I
3. NCB8 is close to Cruise Terminal CT5 and proposed location of a RO/RO Car transfer facility  But possible
4. There is unused seawall between Army dock and Naval Ordinance dock.!
5. Is unlikely but is just empty land with they could dig ADLS dock inland.
    Plus ASDL could maneuver itself into cut-out docking area in berm.
6. Figure out how to get ASDL through 90' wide Barge Canal into Banana River and back to KSC

1.  Doesn't matter, they are not going to assign it to ASDS.
2. Not possible, the RORO is going to happen
3.  No, That is area is used.  The ships tie off to the piers that and it is a RORO dock.  Anyways, it needs to be on the public part of the port.
4. the Air Force is not going to do that
6.  still the same problems.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 06/26/2016 09:35 pm

1. NCB5 is nothing but a parking lot and they don't even have enough containers for phase I
3. NCB8 is close to Cruise Terminal CT5 and proposed location of a RO/RO Car transfer facility  But possible
4. There is unused seawall between Army dock and Naval Ordinance dock.!
5. Is unlikely but is just empty land with they could dig ADLS dock inland.
    Plus ASDL could maneuver itself into cut-out docking area in berm.
6. Figure out how to get ASDL through 90' wide Barge Canal into Banana River and back to KSC

1.  Doesn't matter, they are not going to assign it to ASDS.
2. Not possible, the RORO is going to happen
3.  No, That is area is used.  The ships tie off to the piers that and it is a RORO dock.  Anyways, it needs to be on the public part of the port.
4. the Air Force is not going to do that
6.  still the same problems.

So where will they go then? The Port already said they were negotiating with SpaceX. Are you saying they are lying to them since there is no place they could build their facility?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/26/2016 10:28 pm

So where will they go then? The Port already said they were negotiating with SpaceX. Are you saying they are lying to them since there is no place they could build their facility?

A processing facility and a dedicated berth are two different things.   See Spacehab for processing facility
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OpelGT on 06/26/2016 11:49 pm

1. NCB5 is nothing but a parking lot and they don't even have enough containers for phase I
3. NCB8 is close to Cruise Terminal CT5 and proposed location of a RO/RO Car transfer facility  But possible
4. There is unused seawall between Army dock and Naval Ordinance dock.!
5. Is unlikely but is just empty land with they could dig ADLS dock inland.
    Plus ASDL could maneuver itself into cut-out docking area in berm.
6. Figure out how to get ASDL through 90' wide Barge Canal into Banana River and back to KSC

1.  Doesn't matter, they are not going to assign it to ASDS.
2. Not possible, the RORO is going to happen
4.  No, That is area is used.  The ships tie off to the piers that and it is a RORO dock. 
    Anyways, it needs to be on the public part of the port.
5. the Air Force is not going to do that
6.  still the same problems.

Why does SpaceX used rocket warehouse and ASDL offloading area have to be on public side of port?
They already have multiple buildings, built new hangars & lease pads on the Air Force base.
What's the problem with adding more to their Air Forces leases?

I guess Elon could always either buy the port or
make the ADSL wings fold up to fit through the bridges & lock to the Banana river!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/26/2016 11:54 pm
A.  It has been stated that Spacex is working with the port, which means non air force land.

B.  The less they work to air force regulations the better

C.  Elon or his companies don't have the money to buy the port
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 06/28/2016 03:54 am
In other news Panama canal is now wide enough to allow passage of winged ASDS class Droneships.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: te_atl on 06/28/2016 08:09 pm
A.  It has been stated that Spacex is working with the port, which means non air force land.


According to this slide deck on port projects from 2015, (Page 18) http://athena.sraprod.com/production/nrt/RRTHomeResources.nsf/resources/RRT4Mar2015Meeting/$File/Port_Canaveral_Expansion-LCDR_Stephen_West.pdf (http://athena.sraprod.com/production/nrt/RRTHomeResources.nsf/resources/RRT4Mar2015Meeting/$File/Port_Canaveral_Expansion-LCDR_Stephen_West.pdf) the port is pursuing leasing the AF land to the north of the middle turning basin.  Thats the Army Transportation Wharf in the previous graphic.   This would be a prime place for SpaceX to get into considering as they currently have a facility right about where the word "Autos" is in the graphic for the cargo yard in the slide.  Since the port is pursuing the lease, then SpaceX would be working with the port even though its AF land...  That graphic also shows a EELV berth marked as DOD to the North East side of the middle turning basin.  The port could try selling the AF as part of the lease negotiations on combining that berth into an aerospace specific wharf.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/28/2016 08:32 pm
A.  It has been stated that Spacex is working with the port, which means non air force land.


According to this slide deck on port projects from 2015, (Page 18)  the port is pursuing leasing the AF land to the north of the middle turning basin.  Thats the Army Transportation Wharf in the previous graphic.   This would be a prime place for SpaceX to get into considering as they currently have a facility right about where the word "Autos" is in the graphic for the cargo yard in the slide.  Since the port is pursuing the lease, then SpaceX would be working with the port even though its AF land...  That graphic also shows a EELV berth marked as DOD to the North East side of the middle turning basin.  The port could try selling the AF as part of the lease negotiations on combining that berth into an aerospace specific wharf.

That pitch is outdated.  Many things are not happening.  See the current port map. 
The Army isn't moving.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: te_atl on 06/28/2016 09:16 pm
That pitch is outdated.  Many things are not happening.  See the current port map. 
The Army isn't moving.

Do you have a later Map then the 2015 Port Development Map on the port Canaveral web site?  http://www.portcanaveral.com/PortCanaveral/media/Publications/Dev-Plans-Brochure-Map.pdf (http://www.portcanaveral.com/PortCanaveral/media/Publications/Dev-Plans-Brochure-Map.pdf)  Because that still has the area I'm talking about listed as a future project area and labeled the AF EUL Discussion Area.  The only other map I see is the in the Projects and Plans section for Cruise Master Planning, and that's only a reference for possible future cruise berths. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/28/2016 11:41 pm
Do you have a later Map then the 2015 Port Development Map on the port Canaveral web site?  Because that still has the area I'm talking about listed as a future project area and labeled the AF EUL Discussion Area. 

That doesn't include the Army wharf
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/29/2016 04:02 pm
Can anyone get eyes on the OCISLY berth? Wondering if she has left yet for Bahama drydock. Elsbeth III has been off AIS for 10 days, and now tug Colonel is showing up in Elsbeth III's last reported AIS position, at the berth by Fishlips. Maybe she and OCISLY have already snuck out of port?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 06/29/2016 04:47 pm
Can anyone get eyes on the OCISLY berth? Wondering if she has left yet for Bahama drydock. Elsbeth III has been off AIS for 10 days, and now tug Colonel is showing up in Elsbeth III's last reported AIS position, at the berth by Fishlips. Maybe she and OCISLY have already snuck out of port?

A certain webcam  ::)  shows OCISLY is still at it's berth as of right now...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/29/2016 05:46 pm
Can anyone get eyes on the OCISLY berth? Wondering if she has left yet for Bahama drydock. Elsbeth III has been off AIS for 10 days, and now tug Colonel is showing up in Elsbeth III's last reported AIS position, at the berth by Fishlips. Maybe she and OCISLY have already snuck out of port?

A certain webcam  ::)  shows OCISLY is still at it's berth as of right now...  ;)

Thanks. I thought they had stopped showing OCISLY altogether, but I guess that ban is in effect only when people actually want to watch it.

Update: Elsbeth III turned her AIS back on this afternoon and moved over to the far end of OCISLY. On the near end, there's another ship, possibly a tug, which doesn't show up on AIS. Some activity on the tug deck. Possibly getting ready to depart.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/29/2016 09:18 pm
Elsbeth III just passed the Jetty Park surf cam towing OCISLY.

Next stop is probably the Grand Bahama Shipyard for drydock. Should be around a 36 hour trip with arrival early Friday morning.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 06/29/2016 10:19 pm
Making 6.5 knots with OCISLY being pumped of ballast...  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/29/2016 10:31 pm
Making 6.5 knots with OCISLY being pumped of ballast...  8)

Good observation. Maybe only 30 hour trip then.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 06/30/2016 07:51 pm
As of June 30, 19:37 UTC--Elsbeth III is approximately 31nm from Freeport.

Lat/Lon:26.66805 N/79.32994 W
Course/Speed: 111.7 ° / 5.4 kn.
https://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367017460
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rosbif73 on 07/01/2016 10:37 am
Elspeth III now about 1 nm from Freeport.

I can't find a port webcam, though there's one on the Carnival Pride which just went into port ahead of her and gave us a good look at the shipyard.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rosbif73 on 07/01/2016 11:46 am
Vesselfinder says Elspeth III is now in port, and ought to be in full view of the Carnival Pride. But no sign of the ASDS on the Pride's webcam - unless that's her circled in red?

[Edit: which seems unlikely as there was something at the same spot in the previous image I posted, at which point EIII was behind the Pride]
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 07/01/2016 02:26 pm
Elsbeth III it seems is parked far end and far left side of Pride's view... way down behind the container port...
The shipyard is center to left of center in Pride's view... where all the cranes are sticking up... far end...

I doubt we see much of OCISLY and Elsbeth III for the duration...  :-\

On edit...
Source Google search... Marine traffic and Elsbeth III
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 07/01/2016 03:56 pm
Attached is a webpage snap with the players marked...

Carnival Pride's webcam location lower left (red box)
ElsBeth III parked upper center (red box and flag callout)

Location of the two floating dry docks that OCISLY can fit in width wise...
Center right (two red boxes)

Source Marine Traffic web page
Source on fit... http://grandbahamashipyard.com/facilities/ (http://grandbahamashipyard.com/facilities/)

On edit... clarify wording... add ref link

Later edit... Carnival Pride left port...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: archae86 on 07/09/2016 06:10 pm
Elspeth III left Freeport 2016-07-09 17:58 UTC.  Can anyone tell whether she had the barge in tow--as seem likely?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 07/09/2016 06:48 pm
Elspeth III left Freeport 2016-07-09 17:58 UTC.  Can anyone tell whether she had the barge in tow--as seem likely?

No inside info, but I expect OCISLY is with her. So we should be seeing them back at Port Canaveral in 36 hours or so, ie late night Sunday or early Monday morning.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 07/09/2016 09:56 pm
Elspeth III left Freeport 2016-07-09 17:58 UTC.  Can anyone tell whether she had the barge in tow--as seem likely?

No inside info, but I expect OCISLY is with her. So we should be seeing them back at Port Canaveral in 36 hours or so, ie late night Sunday or early Monday morning.

Based on the speeds posted to MarineTraffic after out in the open ocean, but before she went out of range of Freeport...
5.8 to 5.6 knots steady state...
I would say OCISLY is following along behind Elsbeth III on her long tow line just fine now...  :)

I agree with your ETA... maybe the captain will even stretch it out a bit till mid-morning Monday...
Just my opinion...  ;)

On edit...
I wonder if it still a black hull... or did they change it... Hmmmm...  ???  :o  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mattstep on 07/11/2016 12:17 am
There is a post in the facebook group speculating whether the Westport Orange Shipyards in Orange Texas are refitting a new ASDS.  Cass Miller (presumably an employee?) posted photos to the Westport Orange Shipyards facebook page on March 4th: https://www.facebook.com/cass.miller.16/posts/738052796331032  Daniel Paasch made the post on the SpaceX facebook group.

Mr. Paasch claims this shipyard did some work on the original ASDS's, but it is not clear if this is actually a Marmac or just some other barge.  Opinions?

Edit: Wrong kind of barge entirely?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 07/11/2016 01:17 am
That looks like a hopper barge but the pipes make me wonder if it's a tank barge of some kind.  (I've seen tank barges that would look quite similar to hopper barges from such a low angle.)  What it doesn't look like is a deck barge, which is what an ASDS would be made of.  Also, it has a flat stern like I see all the time on Mississippi River barges, but the MARMAC siblings all sport a sloped stern with two large "skegs" (a better hull plan for ocean voyages, perhaps?). 

So, it's certainly not a MARMAC sibling, but it's still interesting to see a barge moving about on dry land.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 07/11/2016 01:43 am
So, it's certainly not a MARMAC sibling, but it's still interesting to see a barge moving about on dry land.

Ooo.. a (very rare) Land Barge!  ;D

(I know that was decidedly NOT helpful.. just couldn't resist)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 07/11/2016 03:23 am
We're towards the end of several days in a row of 100 degree temperatures in Jacksonville, Florida. My AC was working like a champ until today, and as some may recall from my post last January when my heater needed some maintenance, it turns out my regular HVAC company is the same one SpaceX employed to repair the drone ship cooling units after damage in 2015.

What was different this time was that I asked the man a few questions before telling him about this message board instead of after, so I initially got a whole new song & dance that was kind of comical. No, he was not at all disappointed the drone ship was no longer in Jacksonville because it was so much work and very complicated work and they had to work on it till really late, and when I asked if SpaceX gave them free SpaceX T-shirts, he said no, they were really nice people but the company didn't do anything for them but pay them. Nevertheless, he did say he was impressed by what SpaceX was doing and their ambition to explore and take people to Mars, and that starting life on other planets was really important.

Then I told him about this message board used by 1000s of people from all over the world, and asked if there was anything he could give me to post here. I don't know how much on the deck people here can or can't already ID, but he said one thing really amazing to him was that SpaceX used 4 commercial-sized AC units, which he estimated to be 4-6 tons each, at both bow & stern for each of two containers of telemetry equipment no larger than the pickup truck he was sitting in. He also complimented their upgrades of fire and breaker walls.

He added that SpaceX told them his company was chosen to do the work because other companies they called either didn't do marine work, or hung up on them haha, probably not believing the call or caller were authentic.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 07/11/2016 08:27 am
There is a post in the facebook group speculating whether the Westport Orange Shipyards in Orange Texas are refitting a new ASDS.  Cass Miller (presumably an employee?) posted photos to the Westport Orange Shipyards facebook page on March 4th: https://www.facebook.com/cass.miller.16/posts/738052796331032  Daniel Paasch made the post on the SpaceX facebook group.

Mr. Paasch claims this shipyard did some work on the original ASDS's, but it is not clear if this is actually a Marmac or just some other barge.  Opinions?

Edit: Wrong kind of barge entirely?

Matt, thanks for the alert. But I'm skeptical. In your 3rd photo there's a man for scale, and using him to estimate the barge width, it's less than 40' wide, which i don't believe is wide enough for a stable ASDS, especially with wings which will tend to make the barge even less stable in ocean swells.

Maybe a catamaran ASDS would make sense, and maybe this is one of two hulls to be joined with a center deck arrangement, but as a single (winged) hull I don't see it working as an ASDS.

Also, as ClayJar mentioned, it doesn't appear to be a deck barge, which would be the most logical choice for a new ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 07/11/2016 09:04 am
Elsbeth III now idling in a holding pattern offshore south of Port Canaveral. Captain just radioed ahead that EIII will be arriving in port at 0800.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 07/11/2016 12:39 pm
Elsbeth III now idling in a holding pattern offshore south of Port Canaveral. Captain just radioed ahead that EIII will be arriving in port at 0800.

Just got the notice from Marine Traffic that EIII has returned to port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 07/11/2016 01:22 pm
A certain webcam has OCISLY and Elsbeth III tying up at the berth now...  8)

So... about 12 days gone and good as new...  :)

On edit... helper tugs now gone...
Not sure on paint colors now... pics too grainy to see any details...  :P

Later edit...
Elsbeth III now parked in her normal spot... job done... 8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kaiser on 07/13/2016 04:46 am


Then I told him about this message board used by 1000s of people from all over the world, and asked if there was anything he could give me to post here. I don't know how much on the deck people here can or can't already ID, but he said one thing really amazing to him was that SpaceX used 4 commercial-sized AC units, which he estimated to be 4-6 tons each, at both bow & stern for each of two containers of telemetry equipment no larger than the pickup truck he was sitting in. He also complimented their upgrades of fire and breaker walls.


That's about what I'd expect, if not a bit large.  For our telemetry containers, it's dual 3-ton units and we have six racks full of heat generating gear.  The 3-tons (only one runs at a time, they cycle between each other -- gotta have redundancy) keep up pretty well, and we have much more equipment than SpaceX should have.  Those 4-tons might present a bang-bang type scenario where they're practically freezing the equipment.  Luckily TM ans satcom equipment isn't super sensitive to that type of thing.

They're not running all ACs at once, just half of them.  ACs are cheap and the cost of scrubbing a mission due to your TM gear getting to 170F and failing due to one AC breaking just isn't acceptable.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 07/13/2016 02:51 pm
Those 4-tons might present a bang-bang type scenario where they're practically freezing the equipment.

I was told during my HVAC repair last January that SpaceX keeps their drone ship electronics at the minimum temp A/Cs can provide before requiring refrigeration equipment.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 07/13/2016 03:41 pm
Those 4-tons might present a bang-bang type scenario where they're practically freezing the equipment.

I was told during my HVAC repair last January that SpaceX keeps their drone ship electronics at the minimum temp A/Cs can provide before requiring refrigeration equipment.
Unsurprisingly. The lower the temperature, the lower the amount of water vapour in the air, and thus less salt. Electronics hate water. Electronics hate salt water even more.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kaiser on 07/13/2016 05:07 pm
Those 4-tons might present a bang-bang type scenario where they're practically freezing the equipment.

I was told during my HVAC repair last January that SpaceX keeps their drone ship electronics at the minimum temp A/Cs can provide before requiring refrigeration equipment.
Unsurprisingly. The lower the temperature, the lower the amount of water vapour in the air, and thus less salt. Electronics hate water. Electronics hate salt water even more.

Eh, it's more for equipment reliability.  There's a pretty linear relationship between equipment temperature and longevity.  Lots of data centers are making the trade to go warmer, because AC is expensive and equipment is cheap and easy to replace.  But mobile systems, replacing the equipment is expensive if not impossible, so you typically go nice and low on the temperature.  On the flip side, if you keep things that cold then you have to have a warmup period before you go in.  Otherwise, you open that door and immediately get condensation on all types of equipment.  So, we keep things cool, but not too cool, because otherwise you can't open them up :)  But for autonomous operations, definitely go as cold as you can essentially.

With those 4-ton units though, I'm surprised that they're not routinely icing them up (maybe they are and they let the other one de-ice and run the secondary, or they've installed secondary de-icers on the coils).  While at sea, a 3-ton AC can keep telemetry and some satcom gear chilled so low that you're down to min temperature 2 minutes into the cycle, but you have a minimum 5-minute or so run time on the AC, but there's not enough heat load so the external coils ice up even while on the equator.  So you either adjust the run times so that it's not an issue, allow large temperature swings, or add on a secondary kit to help prevent icing.

With respect to humidity, a 1-ton AC unit takes a 20' ISO container that's not even fully sealed very well down to single digit humidity percentages really, really quickly, even while at sea and getting splashed by waves.  Humidity is really not a concern.  Most containers, if they've had a couple of cycles of chilling and are decently chilled, you've bottomed out the humidity sensor's range and it stays there.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 07/13/2016 06:37 pm
Eh, it's more for equipment reliability.  There's a pretty linear relationship between equipment temperature and longevity.  Lots of data centers are making the trade to go warmer, because AC is expensive and equipment is cheap and easy to replace.  But mobile systems, replacing the equipment is expensive if not impossible, so you typically go nice and low on the temperature. 
it's.. more complicated than that.   Large-scale data center gear has limited lifetime because newer more power efficient gear comes along quickly enough that it doesn't really make economic sense to keep the old stuff running.

And it's not always better to go colder.    In 2007, Google published research showing that in google's data centers (which are large warehouses), hard drives were measurably more reliable at 35-40C than they were at 15-30C.   
See "Failure Trends in a Large Disk Drive Population" (pdf) (http://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en//archive/disk_failures.pdf), particularly section 3.4 and figures 4 and 5.

Stability of temperature and humidity - inherently easier in large buildings compared with shipping-container-scale installations - may well be more important than the absolute temperature.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kaiser on 07/13/2016 10:50 pm
Eh, it's more for equipment reliability.  There's a pretty linear relationship between equipment temperature and longevity.  Lots of data centers are making the trade to go warmer, because AC is expensive and equipment is cheap and easy to replace.  But mobile systems, replacing the equipment is expensive if not impossible, so you typically go nice and low on the temperature. 
it's.. more complicated than that.   Large-scale data center gear has limited lifetime because newer more power efficient gear comes along quickly enough that it doesn't really make economic sense to keep the old stuff running.

And it's not always better to go colder.    In 2007, Google published research showing that in google's data centers (which are large warehouses), hard drives were measurably more reliable at 35-40C than they were at 15-30C.   
See "Failure Trends in a Large Disk Drive Population" (pdf) (http://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en//archive/disk_failures.pdf), particularly section 3.4 and figures 4 and 5.

Stability of temperature and humidity - inherently easier in large buildings compared with shipping-container-scale installations - may well be more important than the absolute temperature.

Definitely agree with you about the limited lifetime of datacenter gear.

With reliability and temperature, as always as you said it's complicated, so there are contradictory reports! :-D  Backblaze, Microsoft, UVA, US DOD and a couple of others have lots of data to show otherwise on hard drives.  Google may be right though for the way that their data centers are designed , their operational profiles and the exact hardware they use.  There's more to it than just hard drives though, caps on motherboards and other components do generally like to be chilly.

Back on topic:

That said, temperature and humidity stability is pretty darn important, which is why I mentioned that a 4-ton with their likely limited heat load might bang-bang.  Oversizing the AC can really cause some big swings, versus getting it sized just right so that it idles and keeps temperatures in a narrow range.  Sometimes we mix/match sizes, like a 2-ton and a 3-ton for this reason.  The 2-ton is appropriately sized, and can keep a stable temperature whereas the 3-ton would tend to overcool and shut down, but you kick the 3-ton on when you're really pushing the power or on a really hot day or after you've expanded your operations now the 3-ton is appropriately sized, and the 2-ton can kick on to help out as needed without causing too large of a temperature gradient.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 07/14/2016 12:03 am
Those 4-tons might present a bang-bang type scenario where they're practically freezing the equipment.

I was told during my HVAC repair last January that SpaceX keeps their drone ship electronics at the minimum temp A/Cs can provide before requiring refrigeration equipment.

After a long day sun-baking on the dark-painted deck of his mobile island I would think Elon would want plenty of refrigeration to keep the drinks cold for his guests..
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 07/14/2016 12:57 am
At any rate, the discussion gives me some good questions to ask next time, which will actually be sometime soon. They had to order a part for me, so if I get someone else who helped with drone ship repairs, maybe he'll know how the units are coordinated.

Can anyone tell if whatever SpaceX has been doing, it has seemed to be working? I just realized I don't even know why they would need much more than GPS telemetry for the ship itself, assuming the rocket sends most of the landing data.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 07/14/2016 01:09 am
My wild guess would be: GPS and power electronics to control the hydraulics for the station-keeping (if that's in the container it would account for a decent heat load over "mere" telemetry), plus telemetry receivers and a full redundant high-reliability independent storage system to record the raw signals received in case of incident.  Plus a small transmitter for post-landing operations, but I think we've seen this already in dock operations and it's not large.  There's some additional control electronics for the fire-fighting gear, but it doesn't seem terribly effective.

Anyway, that's my wild guess at the contents of the container; hopefully better-informed folks can use this as a starting point to tell me exactly how I'm wrong.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 07/14/2016 01:25 am
My wild guess would be: GPS and power electronics to control the hydraulics for the station-keeping (if that's in the container it would account for a decent heat load over "mere" telemetry), plus telemetry receivers and a full redundant high-reliability independent storage system to record the raw signals received in case of incident.  Plus a small transmitter for post-landing operations, but I think we've seen this already in dock operations and it's not large.  There's some additional control electronics for the fire-fighting gear, but it doesn't seem terribly effective.

FWIW, the station-keeping GPS, control and hydraulic systems (assuming they are as outlined earlier in this thread) are all marine-rated and, for that reason, would not require any kind of air-conditioning nor would generally be supplied with any by design.

I would guess the A/C systems reported to be aboard would be solely for the satellite, telemetry and radio communications gear, some of which could be very temperature-sensitive indeed... and a shipping container, even a white-painted one, can get pretty warm in the hot sun.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 07/14/2016 01:57 am
Maybe no one has to assume the containers are very full to begin with. The size and weight of the containers by themselves might help stabilize the ship.

Edited to pluralize since I was told there are 2 containers w/ 4 cooling units each, one set at the bow and one at the stern. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 07/14/2016 03:36 am
Well... ISTR there is always a call-out on ASDS recovery attempts that the ASDS acquires the telemetry from the first stage as the stage comes over its horizon.  Wouldn't that indicate that the ASDS is both relaying the telemetry back to Hawthorne and recording it for later analysis?

Seeing as how the regular tracking and telemetry systems are all busy tracking, and keeping tabs on the telemetry from, the second stage, it would make sense that the ASDS might be serving a lot of those functions for the first stage during its final descent and its landing burn.  For RTLS landings, there are communications systems in place at the launch site to handle those functions.

That would mean there's a lot of electronics for processing and retransmitting telemetry that needs cooling, I would think...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 07/14/2016 05:06 pm
I've always suspected that go quest is doing most of the telemetry. It had its own electronics container, and the FCC license mentions some of its gear.  To play devil's advocate: the ASDS container could contain nothing but video camera relay/recording and post-launch command-and-control, with go quest handling all telemetry duties and the station-keeping hardware all outside in the marine environment.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 07/15/2016 12:32 am
I've always suspected that go quest is doing most of the telemetry. It had its own electronics container, and the FCC license mentions some of its gear.  To play devil's advocate: the ASDS container could contain nothing but video camera relay/recording and post-launch command-and-control, with go quest handling all telemetry duties and the station-keeping hardware all outside in the marine environment.

Well.. we know there is at least some telemetry on the ASDS: the flight controllers back in MCC-X need to not only know the ASDS is 'on-station' with 'all systems green', but need to shift it remotely via changing the GPS target set-point (as easy as sending a NMEA command string over a serial comms link from their on-board telemetry server no doubt) in the event of a last-hour decision to water-land.

Plus the video camera transmissions.. and the remote activation of the deluge system.. there's a bit there.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 07/16/2016 09:14 pm
OCISLY earlier today.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 07/16/2016 11:04 pm

Well.. we know there is at least some telemetry on the ASDS: the flight controllers back in MCC-X need to not only know the ASDS is 'on-station' with 'all systems green', but need to shift it remotely via changing the GPS target set-point (as easy as sending a NMEA command string over a serial comms link from their on-board telemetry server no doubt) in the event of a last-hour decision to water-land.

Plus the video camera transmissions.. and the remote activation of the deluge system.. there's a bit there.

Go Quest can do those vs MCC
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 07/17/2016 12:24 am

Well.. we know there is at least some telemetry on the ASDS: the flight controllers back in MCC-X need to not only know the ASDS is 'on-station' with 'all systems green', but need to shift it remotely via changing the GPS target set-point (as easy as sending a NMEA command string over a serial comms link from their on-board telemetry server no doubt) in the event of a last-hour decision to water-land.

Plus the video camera transmissions.. and the remote activation of the deluge system.. there's a bit there.


Go Quest can do those vs MCC

So in other words, using Facebook's Pirate English translation, the Go Quest crew is a mix of landlubbing black-hearted scallywags and seafaring yellow-bellied freebooters. You have to hope they're doing more than eyeballing the landing trajectory to adjust the ASDS position if necessary.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Bob Shaw on 07/17/2016 12:25 am

Well.. we know there is at least some telemetry on the ASDS: the flight controllers back in MCC-X need to not only know the ASDS is 'on-station' with 'all systems green', but need to shift it remotely via changing the GPS target set-point (as easy as sending a NMEA command string over a serial comms link from their on-board telemetry server no doubt) in the event of a last-hour decision to water-land.

Plus the video camera transmissions.. and the remote activation of the deluge system.. there's a bit there.

Go Quest can do those vs MCC

Low bit-rate comms will suffice for most C&C of the drone ship, but there's no reason to assume that there isn't also higher capacity microwave data being sent. It's not that big an ask - I've participated in artillery exercises where fall of shot video was transmitted by a forward observation vessel to the firing vessel, with a low-bitrate link from the mothership controlling camera positioning. This sort of stuff isn't at all new, and requires almost trivial levels of kit.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 07/17/2016 04:07 am
Folks, we're missing the point: the question was what gear is likely to be in the air-conditioned SpaceX containers on the ASDS deck.  Two strawmen were raised, a "maximal" one which consisted  of all the equipment which could possibly be present, and a "minimal" one with as little equipment as possible (nothing that could plausibly be aboard Go Quest instead, for example).  We have no way of knowing which is nearer to correct, but it's interesting to explore both directions.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: miki on 07/17/2016 05:14 pm
Not sure if someone has posted this, but here is a video in real speed of CRS-8 landing on ASDS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOagay_opLQ?t=56m20s (at 56m and 20s in video).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 07/17/2016 06:43 pm
Not sure if someone has posted this, but here is a video in real speed of CRS-8 landing on ASDS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOagay_opLQ?t=56m20s (at 56m and 20s in video).

The forum keeps replacing &t with ?t when it caches that url or something breaking the link, this should work:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/8187976
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 07/27/2016 08:21 pm
It appears that thread about our beloved ship (or ships more correctly) silently died  :(

Any updates folks? Pictures?

I too have so little time to continue with my OCLSLY model, but hope to resume it tomorrow.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 07/27/2016 11:11 pm
It appears that thread about our beloved ship (or ships more correctly) silently died  :(

Any updates folks? Pictures?

The thread hasn't died.. it's only sleeping.

Jokes aside, there's been no action on the ASDS front 'cause one is away getting it's bottom scrubbed and the other is parked securely berthed awaiting another opportunity to catch something.  Be patient, they'll be out on the high seas again soon. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 07/29/2016 02:04 pm
Jokes aside, there's been no action on the ASDS front 'cause one is away getting it's bottom scrubbed...

Did I miss something? OCISLY got back from drydock over two weeks ago.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 07/29/2016 06:11 pm
Don't know if anyone else mentioned this but Marmac 303 had some replacement work done that is now listed on USCG website

https://cgmix.uscg.mil/PSIX/PSIXSearch.aspx
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 07/29/2016 07:32 pm
Don't know if anyone else mentioned this but Marmac 303 had some replacement work done that is now listed on USCG website

https://cgmix.uscg.mil/PSIX/PSIXSearch.aspx
This says that the due date for the repair of the "Electrical Supply System" is Aug 1. 
Should be plenty of time for JCSat-16 launch, even if we don't have an exact launch date for it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 07/29/2016 08:09 pm
Don't know if anyone else mentioned this but Marmac 303 had some replacement work done that is now listed on USCG website

https://cgmix.uscg.mil/PSIX/PSIXSearch.aspx
This says that the due date for the repair of the "Electrical Supply System" is Aug 1. 
Should be plenty of time for JCSat-16 launch, even if we don't have an exact launch date for it.
Let's not mix up our ASDSs.  That report seems to have been for the west-coast one, JRTI, as the USCG base was San Pedro, California.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 07/29/2016 09:15 pm
Don't know if anyone else mentioned this but Marmac 303 had some replacement work done that is now listed on USCG website

https://cgmix.uscg.mil/PSIX/PSIXSearch.aspx
This says that the due date for the repair of the "Electrical Supply System" is Aug 1. 
Should be plenty of time for JCSat-16 launch, even if we don't have an exact launch date for it.
Let's not mix up our ASDSs.  That report seems to have been for the west-coast one, JRTI, as the USCG base was San Pedro, California.

Oops.   :-[
I missed the San Pedro detail.
Then there's even more time margin to the Iridium launch NET Sept 12.
Just in case...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 07/30/2016 12:50 am
My HVAC part came in and the same technician came out, so I have a followup report based on the questions that came up here. In fact, he gave me so much information this time, it might be better if I just bullet most of it. In addition, he said he took some pictures while his team was working and he will try to find and post them here.

⦁   the 2 containers have only 2 air handlers each, which hang from the ceilings inside, and each air handler is shared by 2 outside condensers
⦁   previous estimate of 4 tons per condenser modified to 4 tons per air handler, for a total of 8 tons of cooling per container
⦁   the 4 A/C condensers outside each container run 2 at a time
⦁   the interior temperature is kept at 68 degrees
⦁   SpaceX freaked out when the repair team had the temp turned down to 60 degrees to test the system

***what's inside the box***

⦁   mostly telemetry servers to communicate only with the support ships, possibly also with the rocket
⦁   communication w/ Hawthorne ruled out as too far, relayed through support ships
⦁   GPS system with more precision than comes standard with the thrusters
⦁   video telemetry servers
⦁   desk
⦁   monitors
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 07/30/2016 08:04 pm
There's a new place to hang out and watch OCISLY come in if between 7am & 7pm, a new Fishlips location with ocean views at Jetty Park (http://visitportcanaveral.com/the-new-fishlips-pavilion-at-jetty-park-good-food-and-friendly-staff/)


(http://visitportcanaveral.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Fishlips-Pavilion-at-Jetty-Park-660x330.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: thor1872 on 07/31/2016 02:15 am
OCISLY 20.07.2016
Source : https://www.reddit.com/r/nasa/comments/4vekms/heliphotography_of_nasa_kennedy_space_center_and/
Flickr Album of cape canaveral : https://www.flickr.com/photos/132466114@N03/sets/72157671500630596
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 08/01/2016 12:05 am
Jokes aside, there's been no action on the ASDS front 'cause one is away getting it's bottom scrubbed...

Did I miss something? OCISLY got back from drydock over two weeks ago.

Sorry.. I haven't been watching too closely.  I've have paid work to do..  :-[

I've had another look at the latest and it does seem OCISLY was inspected on 22nd June with final USCG sign-off on the 27th.  No issues found and, assuming she doesn't get into trouble, she'll be left alone until 2018 at least.

One point of interest for both our ASDSs is a change in USCG classification from "Research Vessel" to "Industrial Vessel" ...but of course, as far as ABS are concerned, they're still barges.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 08/09/2016 09:42 pm
http://www.twopalms.com/

Elsbeth III and OCISLY heading out of PC 5:33 PM EDT

4 days til scheduled launch
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 08/09/2016 11:14 pm
How times have changed.  Only a couple of launches ago we would have been estimating departure times and sending out stalkers ahead of time.  Now it's just an footnote...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hankelow8 on 08/09/2016 11:17 pm
How times have changed.  Only a couple of launches ago we would have been estimating departure times and sending out stalkers ahead of time.  Now it's just an footnote...

I think the interest level will rack up when they have to send out two barges for Falcon heavy, bring it on !
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 08/09/2016 11:29 pm
How times have changed.  Only a couple of launches ago we would have been estimating departure times and sending out stalkers ahead of time.  Now it's just an footnote...

I think the interest level will rack up when they have to send out two barges for Falcon heavy, bring it on !
We have it from multiple sources (Elon, Gwynne, and the notice of EAS amendment) FH will land boosters back at LZ-1.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hankelow8 on 08/09/2016 11:40 pm
How times have changed.  Only a couple of launches ago we would have been estimating departure times and sending out stalkers ahead of time.  Now it's just an footnote...

I think the interest level will rack up when they have to send out two barges for Falcon heavy, bring it on !
We have it from multiple sources (Elon, Gwynne, and the notice of EAS amendment) FH will land boosters back at LZ-1.


I would guess that would depend on how high performance the launch would be, but I agree most launches would be in the return to launch site thinking  about it, it's going to be unproductive to have 3 barges out at sea, not worth the cost.
So I have to admit a bit of a dumb post this time.

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: StuffOfInterest on 08/12/2016 12:40 pm
***what's inside the box***

⦁   mostly telemetry servers to communicate only with the support ships, possibly also with the rocket
⦁   communication w/ Hawthorne ruled out as too far, relayed through support ships
⦁   GPS system with more precision than comes standard with the thrusters
⦁   video telemetry servers
⦁   desk
⦁   monitors

Considering the issues SpaceX has had with the sat uplink on the barge dropping out during landing due to vibration (speculation on my part) I wonder if they would do better to use an omni-directional VHF link to the support ship and then do the sat connection from there.  Also, not having sat uplink on the barge itself would cut down on the cost and complexity of equipment that has to be so close to the business end of a running rocket.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 08/12/2016 04:05 pm
How times have changed.  Only a couple of launches ago we would have been estimating departure times and sending out stalkers ahead of time.  Now it's just an footnote...

rightly so.  The point is to put payloads into orbit and not to land on barges
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 08/12/2016 04:08 pm
***what's inside the box***

⦁   mostly telemetry servers to communicate only with the support ships, possibly also with the rocket
⦁   communication w/ Hawthorne ruled out as too far, relayed through support ships
⦁   GPS system with more precision than comes standard with the thrusters
⦁   video telemetry servers
⦁   desk
⦁   monitors

Considering the issues SpaceX has had with the sat uplink on the barge dropping out during landing due to vibration (speculation on my part) I wonder if they would do better to use an omni-directional VHF link to the support ship and then do the sat connection from there.  Also, not having sat uplink on the barge itself would cut down on the cost and complexity of equipment that has to be so close to the business end of a running rocket.

Where does it say sat uplink in that list?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 08/12/2016 04:18 pm
SpaceX thinks their mission is "To enable the space flight capabilities necessary to make human life multiplanetary - or more specifically enable a self sustaining human civilization on Mars."

(From here: https://www.quora.com/What-is-SpaceXs-mission-statement)

Curiously, SpaceX agrees:

"The company was founded in 2002 to revolutionize space technology, with the ultimate goal of enabling people to live on other planets."
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Citabria on 08/12/2016 04:22 pm
The point is to put payloads into orbit and not to land on barges

Wrong. The point is to put payloads into orbit more affordably by landing on barges and seashores.

We all grew up with disposable rockets and convinced ourselves that the missions were worth the waste. Good thing Mr. Musk did not.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 08/12/2016 06:10 pm
Oh Puh-lease!
Let's not rehash this issue.
Jim is right.  (as usual)
Decreasing interest in the mechanics is proper for maturing technology, where the focus shifts to the ultimate purpose.
Just look at the JCSat-16 Updates Thread.  <36 hours to go and the press kit is only the 20th reply.
This is from someone who is thinking about driving several hours to the Cape to watch the 2 AM launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 08/12/2016 06:46 pm
Oh Puh-lease!
Let's not rehash this issue.
Jim is right.  (as usual)
Decreasing interest in the mechanics is proper for maturing technology, where the focus shifts to the ultimate purpose.
Just look at the JCSat-16 Updates Thread.  <36 hours to go and the press kit is only the 20th reply.
This is from someone who is thinking about driving several hours to the Cape to watch the 2 AM launch.

I'd drive further to watch a landing.  It's more interesting, from an "aerospace" point of view.

And if you want to discount the "mechanics", what's the point in watching either launch or landing?  It's all about the payload, right?

With routine operations, everything loses the novelty factor.   I'll all for that.  I sat at a restaurant on the shoreline by SFO watching airplanes land. Giant beasts coming and going, right outside the window.  After 3 or 4, got lost in my drink and conversation.  Looking forward to reacting to rockets the same way...

But meanwhile, rockets get launched all over, by multiple vendors, and have been for the last 50 years.  Landings, not so much.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 08/12/2016 06:58 pm
How times have changed.  Only a couple of launches ago we would have been estimating departure times and sending out stalkers ahead of time.  Now it's just an footnote...

rightly so.  The point is to put payloads into orbit and not to land on barges

Exactly. They should be landing on land instead!  ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AncientU on 08/13/2016 01:36 am
Oh Puh-lease!
Let's not rehash this issue.
Jim is right.  (as usual)
Decreasing interest in the mechanics is proper for maturing technology, where the focus shifts to the ultimate purpose.
Just look at the JCSat-16 Updates Thread.  <36 hours to go and the press kit is only the 20th reply.
This is from someone who is thinking about driving several hours to the Cape to watch the 2 AM launch.

Of course Jim is correct, the glass is half empty.

For the last fifty years, the Ultimate Purpose of a launch was delivering the payload, mostly because that was the ONLY thing a given rocket did.  Its mission was over when the payload was released. 

Falcon's 'mission' is just starting... by design, after it releases its payload, it will go through a series of maneuvers, land safely on a drone ship or at the launch site, get returned to the pad, launch another payload, go through a series of maneuvers, land safely on a drone ship or at the launch site, get returned to the pad, launch another payload, go through a series of maneuvers, land safely on a drone ship or at the launch site, get returned to the pad, launch another payload, ...

If you only do one thing, then of course it it the ultimate thing to you.

Edit: grammar (site vs sight)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 08/14/2016 10:20 am
I liked that at T-4m50s they discussed how the orientation of Droneship is dictated entirely by sea conditions and not approach of first stage, also the bit on no talking between droneship and stage plus little description on final burn profiles. Good communication, better webcasts.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 08/14/2016 08:25 pm
I liked that at T-4m50s they discussed how the orientation of Droneship is dictated entirely by sea conditions and not approach of first stage, also the bit on no talking between droneship and stage plus little description on final burn profiles. Good communication, better webcasts.

I liked that, too.

We've long discussed droneship orientation in this thread, and as I recall, the consensus was that it is dictated by sea conditions, but it's great to hear confirmation.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: starhawk92 on 08/15/2016 03:01 pm
As the latest capture returns to PC, please note significant observations/milestones here as appropriate:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40926.0  (S1-0028 Reuse thread)

Thanks!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 08/16/2016 01:53 pm
Here's our old friend Marmac 300 carrying components for the Deepwater Wind turbines off Block Island:

http://m.providencejournal.com/article/20151121/NEWS/151119173
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 08/16/2016 03:42 pm
Here's our old friend Marmac 300 carrying components for the Deepwater Wind turbines off Block Island:

http://m.providencejournal.com/article/20151121/NEWS/151119173

What an embarrassing retirement, relegated to being lashed to another barge that's then using anchors and winches to hold position. How the mighty have fallen.  :'(
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 08/16/2016 03:55 pm
That article is behind a paywall. But now I'm going to run my boat out there to check her out!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 08/16/2016 03:59 pm
That article is behind a paywall. But now I'm going to run my boat out there to check her out!

She may be long gone since the article was from last November and construction is nearly complete. But it would be a cool trip anyway. You might get to see some blades being installed.

http://www.newsday.com/news/region-state/long-island-sound-wind-farm-off-block-island-nears-completion-1.12179327
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 08/16/2016 04:09 pm
That article is behind a paywall. But now I'm going to run my boat out there to check her out!
Link was fine for me. Not behind a paywall, but behind a pop-up video add. If you blocked it, perhaps that caused the issue.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 08/16/2016 06:54 pm
Here's our old friend Marmac 300 carrying components for the Deepwater Wind turbines off Block Island:

http://m.providencejournal.com/article/20151121/NEWS/151119173

What an embarrassing retirement, relegated to being lashed to another barge that's then using anchors and winches to hold position. How the mighty have fallen.  :'(

Kidding aside, one ship company's spokesperson explicitly stated in a press release on the developer's website (http://dwwind.com/press/americas-first-offshore-wind-farm-entering-final-construction-stage/) that they were proud to be part of building America's first offshore wind farm. It's an exciting renewable energy development to be alerted to on top of the association with the Marmac 300.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 08/16/2016 08:19 pm
Decreasing interest in the mechanics is proper for maturing technology.....

.....especially during the Olympics. Note evidence of a conflict when interest rose again to watch SpaceX stick a landing like a Gold medalist, as Bubbinski put it on Twitter. That might be a good analogy to use going forward. At most 3/10ths of a point deduction if they don't stick the landing, and 3/10ths no one wants to sacrifice. Even Jim might allow a 3/10ths of a point valuation.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JebK on 08/16/2016 08:30 pm
At most 3/10ths of a point deduction if they don't stick the landing, and 3/10ths no one wants to sacrifice.

I just hope we get to see this landing at some point.  All I saw the usual picture freeze (during which we heard the "Falcon 9 has landed..." call) and then suddenly there it was on the deck of OCISLY.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/16/2016 10:51 pm
At most 3/10ths of a point deduction if they don't stick the landing, and 3/10ths no one wants to sacrifice.

I just hope we get to see this landing at some point.  All I saw the usual picture freeze (during which we heard the "Falcon 9 has landed..." call) and then suddenly there it was on the deck of OCISLY.

SpaceX will almost certainly release a full-length landing video, or hopefully (as in some recent launches) several - distant views front the escort vessels or a drone, on board footage from the barge, or best of all, Stage 1 footage all the way to the X.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 08/17/2016 12:00 am
At most 3/10ths of a point deduction if they don't stick the landing, and 3/10ths no one wants to sacrifice.

I just hope we get to see this landing at some point.  All I saw the usual picture freeze (during which we heard the "Falcon 9 has landed..." call) and then suddenly there it was on the deck of OCISLY.

Well, to be fair on them, we do know from the past couple that the stage touches down incredibly quickly in anything other than high-speed video - at a guess, less than a second from fall to complete stop.  I'm not going to try and guess the g-forces involved, but imagine they'd be significant.  Either way, for many reasons discussed here already, a nice, gentle, slow, touchdown this is not: they don't call it "hover-slam" for nothing.  If their live video link is fairly low frame-rate (as it appears to be) it's not all that surprising to me that it's all over before we know it. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 08/17/2016 01:12 am
No, there is plenty of time to see the actual landing in non-high-speed video, but the sat link always cuts out during the live feed.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: su27k on 08/17/2016 04:45 am
Nice thing about reddit is occasionally you got interesting info like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4xmxar/spacex_on_twitter_falcon_9_first_stage_has_landed/d6hcbkt?context=3

Quote
Quote
Bencredible is already that guy and has put a lot of work into getting the feeds to do as well as they have. The fact that the feed does come back on its own should be appreciated.
Yeah, I have it (mostly) self healing now... Hey, we all want to see it too! Drives me bonkers when it cuts out. Working on solutions, but no ETA. It's actually a much harder challenge than the Internet gives it credit for. The solution will hopefully look simple, but has a boat load of... uh... things... making... it... thing... and... stuff... can't... talk... about...
Or it could miserably fail. Dunno, but I'm gunna try!

and

Quote
We simplify explaining problem to just vibe. It is actually vibe plus a lot of additional radio interference. Take in to account the massive distances involved between the nearest available objects and things get complex quick!
I'll say it is actually a sorta fun problem to solve. Engineers are split 50/50 as to if the proposed solution will work or not. We shall see!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JebK on 08/17/2016 05:04 am
No, there is plenty of time to see the actual landing in non-high-speed video, but the sat link always cuts out during the live feed.

Right.. I wasn't complaining that it cut out, it is what it is, and getting live video from a few meters from a landing first stage from 400 miles out at sea is definitely "non-trivial". 

I'm just hoping that SpaceX will release some video of the landing from OCISLY and/or the stage itself.  They often release some nice clips, but, for instance, we never got to see a HD, real time video of the THAICOM 8 landing.  The last landing we got to see any after the fact detail of was JCSAT-14.

Yeah I know they're a business and not NASA and have no obligation to inform the public, but they're doing amazing stuff here and it would be nice to get more than the occasional glimpse of it.  Just imagine a real-time, HD view of the entire 1st stage flight and landing of a daylight flight such as JCSAT-14.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: 411rocket on 08/17/2016 06:16 am
Do we have any stalkers Observers, keeping an eye out for the ASDS Port arrival?

Would be nice, to have a consistent, offloading video feed again.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RedSky on 08/17/2016 11:07 am
I see on the marine traffic site that Go Quest and Elsbeth III are about 30 km due east of the Cape.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/17/2016 01:04 pm
Surf Guru ‏@SurfGuruFL
The SpaceX rocket should be coming into port in a bit.  We are going to try to keep the Jetty Park cam fixed on:

https://www.facebook.com/surfgurufl/posts/1029117310471148

Which links to the webcam page:
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

We also have a dedicated thread for the stage, https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=66.0 - but yeah, that can be for when they are hands on with the stage and it's off the ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: bdub217 on 08/17/2016 02:08 pm
Vessel track here:
https://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367017460

Looks to be currently 10-12k off the coast heading straight toward port canaveral at 5 knots.  In the past if they are holding off the coast they are usually at 2-3 knots running inside a box.   If this is correct I'd guess they'd be visible on the surf cams in an hour or so and coming in through the jetty in a couple of hours.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 02:32 pm
Surf Guru ‏@SurfGuruFL
The SpaceX rocket should be coming into port in a bit.  We are going to try to keep the Jetty Park cam fixed on:

https://www.facebook.com/surfgurufl/posts/1029117310471148

Which links to the webcam page:
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

We also have a dedicated thread for the stage, https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=66.0 - but yeah, that can be for when they are hands on with the stage and it's off the ASDS.

On camera now. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/17/2016 02:35 pm
Oh hi! ;D

http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 02:40 pm
For a few minutes they were back to showing surf and beach images.

And now back to OCISLY/F9 again. I think people are fighting for control of the webcam with that "Get Cam Control" button.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/17/2016 02:40 pm
Probably about an hour out of port. Webcam had to move a lot to the right to get it in view.

Keep following and posting (I'm AWOL for a bit). Surf Guru are good people and helping a lot. Keep linking their site.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 02:51 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

A little bit closer ...

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 02:58 pm
Looks like a boat heading out to meet the flotilla - harbor pilot maybe?

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RedSky on 08/17/2016 03:04 pm
Vessel Tracker says the boat heading out to them is Pilot Boat 3.  So it looks they are coming right in, no holding.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:05 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

Looks like the flotilla is moving in ... the small boat that went out to meet them is there in the background of the image between OCISLY and EIII.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:09 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

Moving right along now ...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 08/17/2016 03:12 pm
I noticed he is working those 3 x 5000hp Mitsu Diesels hard enough... to smoke em a bit...  8)

Source...
http://www.smithmaritime.us/vessel-elsbeth3.php
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:13 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

Looks like this one's in much better shape than JCSAT-14's was. I guess time will tell.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:14 pm
I noticed he is working those 3 x 5000hp Mitsu Diesels hard enough... to smoke em a bit...  8)

Source...
http://www.smithmaritime.us/vessel-elsbeth3.php

Or using cheap fuel, lol. I've gotten half-way seasick often enough on dive trips from diesel fumes blowing back over the dive deck. Blech.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:15 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:18 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

Getting close enough for sun to shine through the haze.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 08/17/2016 03:18 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

These guys rock!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/17/2016 03:20 pm
No cruise ships or Royal Navy nuclear subs this time.

BOAT IN THE RANGE!! ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:22 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

The buoy helps give you scale/perspective of how fast (or slow) they're moving in).

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 08/17/2016 03:22 pm
No cruise ships or Royal Navy nuclear subs this time.

BOAT IN THE RANGE!! ;D

HOLD HOLD HOLD!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:23 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

Getting some really nice sharp views now.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Tuts36 on 08/17/2016 03:25 pm
No perceptible lean this time.  Are you sure this was a GTO mission?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/17/2016 03:26 pm
Looks in great shape! And there's Elon in his speed boat! ;)

http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:26 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

Close enough to make out the S1 Merlin nozzles. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:30 pm
REALLY great views, SurfGuru! Thanks!

http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RedSky on 08/17/2016 03:30 pm
Passing through the TwoPalms.com camera.  That means it's almost to port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 08/17/2016 03:31 pm
Happiness is...

...when your first stage comes back to port and what comes back is not covered by tarps...

:)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/17/2016 03:33 pm

http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

Really great shots.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:35 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

Nice view of the jack stands under the stage. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:37 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

And heading past the jetty with a small crowd on the pier to greet the return.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:40 pm
http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report

Really fantastic views here.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 08/17/2016 03:40 pm
Maybe it's just the optics in the camera, but does it look to anyone else like the stage has just a tiny lean to the right...?

Still, doesn't look like it walked across the ASDS deck any since landing.  Need a closer, and higher-vantage-point, image to be sure, though.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/17/2016 03:41 pm
That was great!

http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 03:43 pm
And that appears to be it for webcam views ... Thanks, SurfGuru. Your webcam work was spectacular.

http://www.surfguru.com/central-florida-surf-reports/jetty-park-surf-report
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/17/2016 03:44 pm
Great work everyone, and especially Herb. If you're on Twitter, thank @SurfGuruFL for the shots.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 08/17/2016 03:48 pm
Impressive the speed they approached and entered port.  Well done.

Vehicle looks good compared to some of the more charred ones we've seen.

Edit: Interested to see how long it takes to get the booster back into a hangar.  I'm sure they've gotten some processes down now.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rocket Science on 08/17/2016 03:57 pm
I'm trying to locate the webcam from the marina parking lot from last time. Any one remember it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RedSky on 08/17/2016 04:33 pm
I'm trying to locate the webcam from the marina parking lot from last time. Any one remember it?

Is it this?

http://www.sunrisemarina.com/web-cam

However, they have been zoomed in on the sign for a while. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rocket Science on 08/17/2016 04:45 pm
I'm trying to locate the webcam from the marina parking lot from last time. Any one remember it?

Is it this?

http://www.sunrisemarina.com/web-cam

However, they have been zoomed in on the sign for a while.
I thought so as well and checked it. Yes, it has not moved for some time. Oh well thanks! :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: tleski on 08/17/2016 04:58 pm
@flatoday_jdean's Tweet: https://twitter.com/flatoday_jdean/status/765953502585683968?s=09

SpaceX F9 booster just arrived at Port Canaveral dock, after Aug. 14 launch of #JCSAT16. Photo by @malcolmdenemark https://t.co/5q8NME3bdb
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 08/17/2016 05:19 pm
Some big fat S1 numbers painted on facing in 3 directions 120* apart on the LOX section would be SO helpful going forward...
I think of that idea, every time I see a picture of one standing tall on it's gear...   8).... :-\

I mean, come on... a big fat 30 painted on the #30 rocket stage coming up...
...would sure rub it in with the competition..  ;D

Would make it SO much easier when these start reflying also... keep em all straight...  :o

Just an opinion...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/17/2016 05:24 pm
Some big fat S1 numbers painted on facing in 3 directions 120* apart on the LOX section would be SO helpful going forward...
I think of that idea, every time I see a picture of one standing tall on it's gear...   8).... :-\

I mean, come on... a big fat 30 painted on the #30 rocket stage coming up...
...would sure rub it in with the competition..  ;D

Make it SO much easier when these start reflying also... keep em all straight...  :o

Just an opinion...  ;)

Just wait 'till the FAA starts requiring N-xxxx tail numbers. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 08/17/2016 05:24 pm
I'm trying to locate the webcam from the marina parking lot from last time. Any one remember it?

Is it this?

http://www.sunrisemarina.com/web-cam

However, they have been zoomed in on the sign for a while.
I thought so as well and checked it. Yes, it has not moved for some time. Oh well thanks! :)
And on the Port Canaveral webcam 36 people just watched a minivan drive into a giant rectangular ship. 
Yawn.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 08/17/2016 05:33 pm
Some big fat S1 numbers painted on facing in 3 directions 120* apart on the LOX section would be SO helpful going forward...
I think of that idea, every time I see a picture of one standing tall on it's gear...   8).... :-\

I mean, come on... a big fat 30 painted on the #30 rocket stage coming up...
...would sure rub it in with the competition..  ;D

Make it SO much easier when these start reflying also... keep em all straight...  :o

Just an opinion...  ;)

Just wait 'till the FAA starts requiring N-xxxx tail numbers. ;)

Maybe that will happen once these are no longer termed 'experimental'.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 08/17/2016 05:46 pm
Wasn't this one labeled secondary instead of experimental?

8 days from out of port to back in. Let's see how long to safe and unload it. Seems they may be able to turn it around in 10 days.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AncientU on 08/17/2016 05:48 pm
Wasn't this one labeled secondary instead of experimental?

8 days from out of port to back in. Let's see how long to safe and unload it. Seems they may be able to turn it around in 10 days.

I believe it was 'Landing Attempt' so they're still hedging a bit.
(Didn't use 'MECO Attempt', for instance.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 08/17/2016 05:51 pm
I am quite sure on some document it was changed from experimental to secondary. But have no idea what document that was. :(
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Craig_VG on 08/17/2016 06:05 pm
I am quite sure on some document it was changed from experimental to secondary. But have no idea what document that was. :(

You're not wrong, check out the press kit:

http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/spacex_jcsat16_press_kit.pdf

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hauerg on 08/17/2016 06:14 pm
Some big fat S1 numbers painted on facing in 3 directions 120* apart on the LOX section would be SO helpful going forward...
I think of that idea, every time I see a picture of one standing tall on it's gear...   8).... :-\

I mean, come on... a big fat 30 painted on the #30 rocket stage coming up...
...would sure rub it in with the competition..  ;D

Would make it SO much easier when these start reflying also... keep em all straight...  :o

Just an opinion...  ;)
Suggested this to @elonmusk after the previous flight. Surprisingly he did not answer.   :o
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 08/17/2016 06:27 pm
Photo credit: Mary Ellen Jelen / We Report Space
http://m.imgur.com/a/C9TuJ
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 08/17/2016 06:45 pm
Maybe it's just the optics in the camera, but does it look to anyone else like the stage has just a tiny lean to the right...?
I believe one of the three interstage/second stage interlocks happens to be on the left side of the stage, which makes the top look asymmetrical.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rocket Science on 08/17/2016 06:55 pm
Pretty clean looking stage, much less sooty... Did she get a "rain wash" out on the ocean?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Fan Boi on 08/17/2016 07:05 pm
Photo credit: Mary Ellen Jelen / We Report Space
http://m.imgur.com/a/C9TuJ

In that close up on the legs (Sy4yzYI_kindlephoto-20175096.jpg ), it sure looks like the leg on the right is cracked. There is a dent at the top of that area too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Aerospace Dilettante on 08/17/2016 07:08 pm
Looks less toasted than JCSAT-14, especially on the interstage above the grid fins.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kaputnik on 08/17/2016 08:39 pm
Any thoughts on the riveted plate visible above one grid fin in the third photo?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Barrie on 08/17/2016 08:53 pm
Photo credit: Mary Ellen Jelen / We Report Space
http://m.imgur.com/a/C9TuJ

In that close up on the legs (Sy4yzYI_kindlephoto-20175096.jpg ), it sure like the leg on the right is cracked. There is a dent at the top of that area too.

Looks like the crack and dent is in a very thin foil wrapped around the leg.  You can see a lapped seam running  along the leg member.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Barrie on 08/17/2016 09:17 pm
Looks like the crack and dent is in a very thin foil wrapped around the leg.  You can see a lapped seam running  along the leg member.

Maybe there's insulation under it and that was the anti-icing remedy?

The icing problem was stopping the deployment piston from latching.  I think we are looking at an arm of the A-frame here. 

The member seems to get wider at the crack, so I think it may just be a tear or crease in the wrapping - which may well be insulation - to accommodate an irregularity in the contours of whatever is underneath.  There is a similar feature in the bottom right corner of the the picture, which seems more like a crease.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 08/17/2016 09:29 pm
Looks like the crack and dent is in a very thin foil wrapped around the leg.  You can see a lapped seam running  along the leg member.

Maybe there's insulation under it and that was the anti-icing remedy?

The icing problem was stopping the deployment piston from latching.  I think we are looking at an arm of the A-frame here. 

The member seems to get wider at the crack, so I think it may just be a tear or crease in the wrapping - which may well be insulation - to accommodate an irregularity in the contours of whatever is underneath.  There is a similar feature in the bottom right corner of the the picture, which seems more like a crease.

Silly question, how does this compare to previous close ups of returned stages?

Are the legs changed, has the possible damage been there before and overlooked? 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/17/2016 10:30 pm
To mark this stage's arrival into port (and other SpaceX things), and remember we'll be going to the dedicated thread for this stage in this section for port ops.

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2016/08/by-sea-land-space-spacex-hardware/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 08/18/2016 02:32 am
To mark this stage's arrival into port (and other SpaceX things), and remember we'll be going to the dedicated thread for this stage in this section for port ops.

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2016/08/by-sea-land-space-spacex-hardware/

Great article but I was hoping you'd work the orbiter transporter in there somehow  ... planes trains automobiles :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 08/18/2016 03:53 am
remember we'll be going to the dedicated thread for this stage in this section for port ops.

To link people over, I believe that is this thread:  http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40926.0
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: tleski on 08/19/2016 07:07 pm
Timelapse of the JCSAT-16 core being transported to the port was posted to SpaceX's Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BJQpM0RjU50/?taken-by=spacex

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: salpun on 08/20/2016 02:33 am
Over on the facebook spacex group they got an answer from a spacex tech who was posting about the drop test about where the core ID number is.

"Travis Masuichi Hunter
Travis Masuichi Hunter If you look right under the second from the right leg it has the tail number printed in off white."

If anyone has the full resolution photos of the area under the landing leg where its toasted for the various cores and can check to see what can be seen. We might get lucky.  A couple of the shots up thread looked like they where crisp enough to see the lettering if focused on the right spot.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 08/21/2016 09:32 pm
"right under" might also mean in the triangular area underneath the bottom leg attach point, where it would be visible with legs folded or unfolded.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SLC on 08/25/2016 11:47 pm
On FLORIDA SPACErePORT for Thursday 25 August 2016  at http://spacereport.blogspot.co.uk/ and ultimately from Florida Today:

"SpaceX to Lease Building at Port Canaveral, May Build Another One (Source: Florida Today)

SpaceX is moving some of its operations to Port Canaveral, port Chief Executive Officer John Murray said Wednesday. The space launch company plans to lease the now-vacant former Spacehab building on the north side of the port, and is looking at constructing a second building on vacant land adjacent to that site, Murray told port commissioners.  ..."  (continues)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 08/26/2016 02:07 am
There is a dedicated thread for that
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SLC on 08/26/2016 02:27 am
There is a dedicated thread for that
Apologies!  Found the new thread at http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40997.0
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: hans_ober on 08/30/2016 01:35 am
Reports that the ASDS is already out of port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 09/03/2016 08:14 am
Elsbeth III is about 120 miles SE (yep, southeast) of Canaveral, inbound at 5.9 knots (towing speed). My guess as to the odd route; they detoured south with OCISLY to avoid rough weather.

Edit to update: EIII back at the dock, so I'm assuming OCISLY is too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 09/05/2016 07:39 pm
If indeed the F9 Return to Flight takes several months, any ideas how SpaceX might take advantage of the downtime in regards to the ASDSs? I'm thinking that any inspections that need doing will be done, and also any planned-for-the-future upgrades/changes. Both ASDSs could be sent back to the yard if needed (Though with JRTI, that'd mean a trip through the Panama Canal, but at least the wings wouldn't have to come off now). 

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 09/05/2016 10:51 pm
If indeed the F9 Return to Flight takes several months, any ideas how SpaceX might take advantage of the downtime in regards to the ASDSs? I'm thinking that any inspections that need doing will be done, and also any planned-for-the-future upgrades/changes. Both ASDSs could be sent back to the yard if needed (Though with JRTI, that'd mean a trip through the Panama Canal, but at least the wings wouldn't have to come off now).

The ASDSs seem to be doing fine the last couple of landings, so I'm not sure there's anything they need to do.  In many ways this is pretty bad timing, 'cause they rushed through repairs and inspections ready for a long and busy launch season and now find themselves stuck at the dock.

Maybe the tugs will find someone else to play with in the interim, but since everyone else in SpaceX will presumably be focussed on RTF unless there are some major upgrades they've been thinking about and put off I'd be surprised if we see anything much happening at all. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 09/05/2016 11:23 pm
Man it was quiet in here....

SpaceX could perhaps use the time to start work on a third ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ZachS09 on 09/06/2016 01:25 am
Man it was quiet in here....

SpaceX could perhaps use the time to start work on a third ASDS.

Could SpaceX use the hypothetical third ASDS for the Boca Chica launches?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 09/06/2016 03:03 am
Man it was quiet in here....

No, not all that quiet really.  If you listen hard enough there's the sound of seagulls on the dock; water lapping against the hull...  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Helodriver on 09/07/2016 06:17 am
Checked up on the SpaceX Navy idling in Port Canaveral. 

OCISLY and Go Quest are at their usual berths on the north side no signs of activity. GO Searcher nowhere in sight.

Elsbeth III is docked behind Fishlips and has crew aboard. That well scarred tug bears the marks of a hardworking life.

A large crocodile appeared to be ready gobble OCISLY as the sun set.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 09/07/2016 06:30 am
Thanks Helodriver. You sure do get around...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 09/08/2016 01:49 pm
A large crocodile appeared to be ready gobble OCISLY as the sun set.

Well, that's one way to revive this thread : If a crocodile does gobble OCISLY, we can be pretty sure that barge-construction-stalking will be able to go in full swing in no time.  ;D
Maybe also gobble JRtI for safety ?  ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 09/09/2016 12:24 pm
OCSILY yesterday evening.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 09/09/2016 12:25 pm
ULA shooting fireworks over OCSILY
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 09/12/2016 04:55 pm
E/V Nautilus arrived at San Pedro. Altasea folks are hosting them

http://nautiluslive.org/live/quad

Hi Dragons  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 09/12/2016 05:25 pm
The fact there are workers on JRTI is encouraging...  8)

RTF sooner then later??...  ???

Nice find Ohsin...  ;)  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 09/13/2016 12:24 am
The fact there are workers on JRTI is encouraging...  8)

Workers.. or dock-minders?  I do find it curious that the forward thruster is down.  Perhaps they were running them for a bit as part of their maintenance regime.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 09/24/2016 07:17 pm
Barge today (9/24)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 10/05/2016 03:20 pm
I got notifications that the Go twins bugged out of port this morning but didn't see anything on EIII... I would assume the ASDS is going to sea as the port has been evacuated?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 10/05/2016 06:04 pm
I got notifications that the Go twins bugged out of port this morning but didn't see anything on EIII... I would assume the ASDS is going to sea as the port has been evacuated?

They may decide to ride it out in port, which might be safer than towing the ASDS out and risking losing her if a tow cable parted in heavy seas.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 10/05/2016 06:13 pm
I got notifications that the Go twins bugged out of port this morning but didn't see anything on EIII... I would assume the ASDS is going to sea as the port has been evacuated?

They may decide to ride it out in port, which might be safer than towing the ASDS out and risking losing her if a tow cable parted in heavy seas.

It would be interesting to find out... the tone of the press release from the port seemed to indicate that approval to stay in port would be few and far between.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 10/05/2016 06:19 pm
I got notifications that the Go twins bugged out of port this morning but didn't see anything on EIII... I would assume the ASDS is going to sea as the port has been evacuated?

They may decide to ride it out in port, which might be safer than towing the ASDS out and risking losing her if a tow cable parted in heavy seas.

It would be interesting to find out... the tone of the press release from the port seemed to indicate that approval to stay in port would be few and far between.

AIUI, the "evacuation" applies only to land-side operations. The harbor will also close to inbound traffic, but the press release doesn't actually say that vessels now berthed there will be required to leave.

http://www.floridatrend.com/article/20807/port-canaveral-evacuation-ordered-in-wake-of-hurricane-matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 10/05/2016 06:20 pm
Just answered my own question... a certain unnamed webcam is showing that both EIII and OCISLY are still tied up in their normal berths.

Its's only OCISLY, EIII and 3 other tugs left in the port... everything else has cleared out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 10/05/2016 06:24 pm
I got notifications that the Go twins bugged out of port this morning but didn't see anything on EIII... I would assume the ASDS is going to sea as the port has been evacuated?

They may decide to ride it out in port, which might be safer than towing the ASDS out and risking losing her if a tow cable parted in heavy seas.

It would be interesting to find out... the tone of the press release from the port seemed to indicate that approval to stay in port would be few and far between.

AIUI, the "evacuation" applies only to land-side operations. The harbor will also close to inbound traffic, but the press release doesn't actually say that vessels now berthed there will be required to leave.

http://www.floridatrend.com/article/20807/port-canaveral-evacuation-ordered-in-wake-of-hurricane-matthew

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/weather/hurricane/os-space-coast-matthew-20161004-story.html

Here was the article I saw... With the anticipated surge (6 plus feet) they want as few vessels in the port as possible. It's my understanding that you had to request permission to remain.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 10/05/2016 06:33 pm
Seems to me they would already be gone if they were planning to leave. Port will be closed to traffic this afternoon.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 10/05/2016 08:06 pm
Actually an unnamed source  ::)  is panning back and forth right now and shows Elsbeth III has company...   :o
Elsbeth II is there with her... how Kewl is that...  8)

On edit... visual source as to other tug ID...
http://www.smithmaritime.us/vessel-elsbeth2.php (http://www.smithmaritime.us/vessel-elsbeth2.php)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 10/06/2016 07:24 pm
As of 3:12 pm local time Port Canaveral...
Various internet sources show that Elsbeth II and Elsbeth III have recently moved over to keep OCISLY company...
Not sure what their plan his here... but it's too late to run from the hurricane inbound I think...

On Edit...
The weather forecast(see below) looks like they are in for a rough ride...  :P

Best wishes for the boats and crews...  :-\

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Sam Ho on 10/06/2016 08:23 pm
SpaceX ship, Victory casino will ride out Matthew at port
Quote
The SpaceX drone ship, a casino cruise boat and a Coast Guard cutter are among the ships that will ride out Hurricane Matthew at Port Canaveral.

The only people at the port will be tugboat operators risking their lives to prevent catastrophe if something breaks loose, and a security team in a bunker, according to port CEO John Murray.

“There are a couple of tug boats, one fuel barge that can’t leave. The SpaceX droneship is moored alongside with a tugboat standing by in case it needs to be protected,” Murray said.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/weather/hurricane/os-hurricane-matthew-port-20161005-story.html
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 10/07/2016 01:10 am
Seems like E2 and E3 are on emergency standby for the port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 10/07/2016 11:16 am
The unnamed webcam is still active... and it's a bit crazy there... they appear to have lost the webcam feed while I was typing this... OCISLY was there as I could see her deck lights that were lit last night... didn't appear to have moved. Storm surge didn't appear to have been more than a couple of feet. Restaurant lost it's blue cloth roof and the wind was WICKED.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 10/07/2016 11:41 am
Port Canaveral had a brief landfall of Matthew - eyewall hit it. Severe damage reported. Roofs flying. Not sure what happened to OCSILY, as soon as wind calms down I will go there to see what's going on.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 10/07/2016 11:42 am
Port Canaveral had a brief landfall of Matthew - eyewall hit it. Severe damage reported. Roofs flying. Not sure what happened to OCSILY, as soon as wind calms down I will go there to see what's going on.

Glad you're ok.... appears the east coast dodged a bullet last night with it staying just off shore.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 10/07/2016 02:18 pm
Port Canaveral Webcam shows OCSILY undamaged. At least that :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 10/07/2016 02:23 pm
Port Canaveral Webcam shows OCSILY undamaged. At least that :)

Yep... and the Elsbeth twins (III and II) are still present behind her and riding the storm just fine...  8)

On edit...
Added snapshot below...
OCISLY with Elsbeth III on the back right (black pilot house pole) and Elsbeth II on the back left (white and taller pilothouse pole)

Later edit
Source of below picture crop posted earlier...
https://twitter.com/PTZtv/status/784392604901265408 (https://twitter.com/PTZtv/status/784392604901265408)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 10/07/2016 07:47 pm
A certain webcam is working off and on...  ;)
I just saw Elsbeth III slowly cross the channel back over toward Fishlips... last seen nosed up to the south side of the channel pointed south... only the back 1/2 of the boat was last visible pointed back North...
OCISLY and Elsbeth II remain at their posts... very dark and overcast... winds have died way down...  :)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 10/07/2016 09:17 pm
My favorite barge is safe at the port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 10/07/2016 10:44 pm
A certain webcam now shows the E sisters parked side by side again near Fishlips...  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 10/11/2016 02:50 pm
OCISLY yesterday.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 10/11/2016 04:09 pm
Both GO ships were in Jacksonville again late yesterday evening for some reason, and I think that's where they went during Matthew. Maybe they never left and just weren't updating. There was an alert they arrived at Jax just before the storm, but then another alert that they left Jax when Matthew was almost to the Cape, and nowhere to be found on MarineTraffic.

Just curious, does anyone know where all the Port Canaveral boats could go for safety, particularly the large cruise ship? If the cruise ship came here, it wasn't in the news but probably would have been, and we weren't hearing that Jax would be any safer either.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 10/11/2016 04:16 pm
Both GO ships were in Jacksonville again late yesterday evening for some reason, and I think that's where they went during Matthew. Maybe they never left and just weren't updating. There was an alert they arrived at Jax just before the storm, but then another alert that they left Jax when Matthew was almost to the Cape, and nowhere to be found on MarineTraffic.

Just curious, does anyone know where all the Port Canaveral boats could go for safety, particularly the large cruise ship? If the cruise ship came here, it wasn't in the news but probably would have been, and we weren't hearing that Jax would be any safer either.

All large ships departed Port Canaveral ahead of Matthew. With two exceptions - OCSILY and Victory Casino Crusies. Two smaller ships broke off and managed to hit dock next to Grills restaurant during storm.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 10/11/2016 04:23 pm
All large ships departed Port Canaveral ahead of Matthew. With two exceptions - OCSILY and Victory Casino Crusies. Two smaller ships broke off and managed to hit dock next to Grills restaurant during storm.

Yes, I know, and you had at least one large cruise ship leave, but where could and did it run to?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guyw on 10/11/2016 04:42 pm
Cruise ships usually stay at sea and avoid the storm. If they have enough warning, they are fast enough to be able to head where the storm isn't.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 10/11/2016 04:53 pm
My guess is the larger boats ran East a fair distance at speed then turned south into the breeze on the far side of Mathew and waited for it to pass...  ???
As long as a boat has some speed (say 20+knots) and does not break down... outrunning and outflanking a hurricane is doable...
The container ship that sank a while back in a big storm had it's engines fail and was lost as a result...
The internet (two sources) indicates Go Searcher is headed back to Port Canaveral today...  ;)
The Elsbeth Tugs are made to pull hard (70 tons pull) but are limited on top speed as a result (big slow props)...
They had no choice but to wait out the storm in port... got up next to a north wall (for some wind protection) and rode it out with OCISLY...  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 10/11/2016 05:00 pm
Cruise ships usually stay at sea and avoid the storm. If they have enough warning, they are fast enough to be able to head where the storm isn't.


I considered that possibility, but there wasn't much of anywhere within 100s of miles that this storm wasn't, and further east was Hurricane Nicole. Good to know they got back to Port Canaveral okay.


My guess is the larger boats ran East a fair distance at speed then turned south into the breeze on the far side of Mathew and waited for it to pass...  ???

Well, maybe east and then north with Hurricane Nicole to the east and south.

Quote
As long as a boat has some speed (say 20+knots) and does not break down... outrunning and outflanking a hurricane is doable...
The container ship that sank a while back had it's engines fail and was lost as a result...

The El Faro captain thought flanking the hurricane was doable too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Sam Ho on 10/11/2016 05:01 pm
Victory I apparently stayed because it wasn't fast enough to avoid the storm, per comments from Port Canaveral CEO John Murray before the storm.

Quote
“Victory I is here too, it probably isn’t fast enough to get away from the storm. It will have skeleton crew on board,” Murray said.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/weather/hurricane/os-hurricane-matthew-port-20161005-story.html
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mfck on 10/23/2016 11:14 pm
Per EMs AMA on reddit now, the BFS carbon dev tank shown at IAC is going to be pressurised to 2/3 of its design burst pressure on an ocean barge in the coming weeks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 10/23/2016 11:32 pm
Per EMs AMA on reddit now, the BFS carbon dev tank shown at IAC is going to be pressurised to 2/3 of its design burst pressure on an ocean barge in the coming weeks.

My guess is that does not mean an ASDS. My reasoning is that Musk never calls the ASDSs "barges", and also that the ASDS are quite expensive, needed, and valuable, so why risk damaging one when a barge would do?

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mfck on 10/23/2016 11:36 pm
Per EMs AMA on reddit now, the BFS carbon dev tank shown at IAC is going to be pressurised to 2/3 of its design burst pressure on an ocean barge in the coming weeks.

My guess is that does not mean an ASDS. My reasoning is that Musk never calls the ASDSs "barges", and also that the ASDS are quite expensive, needed, and valuable, so why risk damaging one when a barge would do?
On the other hand, ASDS is impact and fire hardened, autonomous, well instrumented and available. It will not be needed until RTF at least. I doubt a pressure burst can hurt it much, but we'll see.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 10/24/2016 12:30 am
Per EMs AMA on reddit now, the BFS carbon dev tank shown at IAC is going to be pressurised to 2/3 of its design burst pressure on an ocean barge in the coming weeks.

My guess is that does not mean an ASDS. My reasoning is that Musk never calls the ASDSs "barges", and also that the ASDS are quite expensive, needed, and valuable, so why risk damaging one when a barge would do?
On the other hand, ASDS is impact and fire hardened, autonomous, well instrumented and available. It will not be needed until RTF at least. I doubt a pressure burst can hurt it much, but we'll see.
The ASDS is certainly not impact nor fire hardened.. but yes, it is autonomous and available and is kitted out with remotely-operated fire-fighting capability.

I guess we'll know they plan to use it if it moves...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mfck on 10/24/2016 02:34 am
Per EMs AMA on reddit now, the BFS carbon dev tank shown at IAC is going to be pressurised to 2/3 of its design burst pressure on an ocean barge in the coming weeks.

My guess is that does not mean an ASDS. My reasoning is that Musk never calls the ASDSs "barges", and also that the ASDS are quite expensive, needed, and valuable, so why risk damaging one when a barge would do?
On the other hand, ASDS is impact and fire hardened, autonomous, well instrumented and available. It will not be needed until RTF at least. I doubt a pressure burst can hurt it much, but we'll see.
The ASDS is certainly not impact nor fire hardened.. but yes, it is autonomous and available and is kitted out with remotely-operated fire-fighting capability.

I guess we'll know they plan to use it if it moves...
I guess 'ready' is a more appropriate term.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 10/24/2016 03:36 am
Scuba tanks are filled to near volumetric capacity with water before burst testing.  There is no energy stored in water under compression so if and when the tank bursts, little energy is released.

Given that these are cryogenic tanks, would a room temperature test be meaningful?

If they want to have the tank at operational temperature (at least on the inside) could they use liquid nitrogen, which could avoid the dangers of liquid oxygen flowing if the tank bursts?

Either way, how would they get a giant tank full of liquid cryogen on a barge out in the ocean, or even a few hundred meters off shore?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 10/24/2016 03:55 am
...
Either way, how would they get a giant tank full of liquid cryogen on a barge out in the ocean, or even a few hundred meters off shore?
Fill it up, let a little boil off as it's towed out, then anchor it and press for the test.

They might insulate it to minimize boil off
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 10/26/2016 06:59 am
Is it me, or does that tank look like it's standard end caps designed to take cylindrical inserts to stretch it for use on the spacecraft or the booster? I'd imagine the methane tanks would have different caps, one conformal to the LOX tank and one the thrust structure cone(s mount).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 10/26/2016 10:14 am
...
Either way, how would they get a giant tank full of liquid cryogen on a barge out in the ocean, or even a few hundred meters off shore?
Fill it up, let a little boil off as it's towed out, then anchor it and press for the test.

They might insulate it to minimize boil off

They could fill it with LOX or liquid nitrogen, if they want it tested in cryogenic state. With the huge tank boiloff would not be too big. Transport it out and close the vent valves. It would pressurise by boiloff. As the test only below burst pressure, they would have release valves and nothing will happen to the tank if the test is successful.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Flying Beaver on 11/01/2016 04:53 am
Go Searcher made a trip out today.

Quest made her way across the basin to FishLips (probably just to grab a pint) and back to the Barge, and Elsbeth III stayed put, at the Pub.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 11/14/2016 01:08 pm
OCSILY & co.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 11/16/2016 11:57 pm
Go Searcher made a trip out today.

Quest made her way across the basin to FishLips (probably just to grab a pint) and back to the Barge, and Elsbeth III stayed put, at the Pub.

Since not much has been happening lately, I haven't been watching closely.. but taking the boat out for a spin every few weeks is common practice in the marine industry.  Whilst marine engines typically need to be run up at least fortnightly to minimise sea-water corrosion in the engine cooling system, getting the hull moving through the water every so often allows ablative anti-fouling to work properly and also inhibits weed build-up on propellers and other underwater fittings which, let unchecked, reduces thrust and increases fuel consumption later on.

Mostly likely that's what they were doing.. with a pint thrown in as incentive.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 11/18/2016 08:05 am
What worries me is that they removed 2nd set of radiators and partially muffers from blue power units.
I model this ship, and that means that I now don't know what they will do with blue power units - maybe they even replace them with newer model  :-\
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 11/18/2016 05:09 pm
It is interesting to compare the pic from 9/24 to the one above...

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1588126#msg1588126 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1588126#msg1588126)

They did change some things... makes ya wonder what's going on...  ???

Maybe they are replacing the rusty coolers with something more corrosion proof...
And adding some chrome exhaust stacks...  :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 11/19/2016 01:47 pm
Indeed. I really hope that they just cleanup the rusty parts.

This is the model of power unit I completed not long ago - don't want to loose this work.

I already have build the container that houses the power unit - this was very difficult - it is really tiny.
https://twitter.com/maximlevitsky/status/788155430413463553

Here you can see the progress I make on the whole model - I am close to finishing actually.
https://github.com/maximlevitsky/ASDS/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 12/06/2016 05:04 pm
Any more recent photos of our lovely ship?  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: eeergo on 12/06/2016 06:58 pm

Any more recent photos of our lovely ship?  ;)


Ask and you shall receive ;) taken a couple of weeks ago on the 23rd. Not much activity was visible at the times I was there, although there was a container loading device moving up and down in close proximity (not on OCISLY as far as I could tell)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 12/06/2016 08:14 pm
@eeergo Thanks a million  :D

It appears that radiators are back on blue power units - they indeed must have cleaned them.
Mufflers are still not on, but now I can be confident that they will put them back on, and that they are not going to update the blue power units.

So I am back to making my model  :)

Attached photos of what I had built so far.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kansan52 on 12/06/2016 08:57 pm
Cool!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: copper8 on 12/12/2016 12:31 am
Taken Saturday, Dec 3, 2016, about 4:30p
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/12/2016 02:50 am
? Something strange is going on in the center of the ASDS' deck. What gives?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 12/12/2016 04:26 am
looks like they removed the bullseye sections... you can see the old ones to the right.

wonder if they put thicker plate in, or maybe something fun like a fire suppression system
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 12/12/2016 04:30 am
also looks like theres a new party deck w/ railing over on the left side, on top of one of the containers.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 12/12/2016 04:34 am
also looks like theres a new party deck w/ railing over on the left side, on top of one of the containers.

They should install a sealed ALON box with propulsive LAS(landing abort system? :p) and sell tickets!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 12/12/2016 12:24 pm
Flame trench?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JasonAW3 on 12/12/2016 01:22 pm
Flame trench?

I think you might be partially correct.

      My guess is that they're going to try the pad landing technique that they intend on using with the ITS first stage.

      It occurs to me that the back-blast off of the concrete pad, from landing such a huge booster might both burn through the pad and the back-blast itself may make either damage the stage itself, or make it too unstable to properly set down without a "Flame Trench".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 12/12/2016 02:14 pm
ITS tests do seem a bit premature, but it looks like it can be opened ...
Maybe some kind of removable deck so that they can bring in hardware from under the deck ...
Refurbishment streamlining by grabbing and securing the booster ? Maybe even being able to remove or refold the legs at sea ?

Since they had a lot of trouble with having to manually approach and secure the boosters, a robotic approach for safety would seem to be a good idea. Then you just need to protect the relatively sensitive equipment below the deck while landing takes place and if you can open safely, it's relatively easy to grab it from below in a similar manner than what they do on land.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 12/12/2016 02:36 pm
Since they had a lot of trouble with having to manually approach and secure the boosters

Could you elaborate on that? I haven't heard anything about troubles securing the booster on the ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/12/2016 02:48 pm
I believe one reference would be the booster that, due to rough seas, slid all the way to the edge of the pad and possibly was saved from going over the side by the toe rail around the perimeter. I'm sure they had a rather hair raising time welding the mounts under that booster to attach the securing chains to.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 12/12/2016 04:48 pm
ITS tests do seem a bit premature, but it looks like it can be opened ...
Maybe some kind of removable deck so that they can bring in hardware from under the deck ...
Refurbishment streamlining by grabbing and securing the booster ? Maybe even being able to remove or refold the legs at sea ?

Since they had a lot of trouble with having to manually approach and secure the boosters, a robotic approach for safety would seem to be a good idea. Then you just need to protect the relatively sensitive equipment below the deck while landing takes place and if you can open safely, it's relatively easy to grab it from below in a similar manner than what they do on land.

The only way that makes sense is if SpaceX thinks the landing precision will be so high that they could guarantee that an actuated hatch would be under the rocket body and not under a leg. 
Since SpaceX intends to someday land the ITS directly on the launch pad, which would seem to require well better than a meter accuracy, they could be working towards this level of precision for the Falcon 9.
If they just wanted robotic securing systems they would be better to store them under an actuated blast shield.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/12/2016 05:00 pm
For ITS pad landing Elon said it would have to have thrusters at the bottom of the booster for fine steer ability. I doubt they would build that into the F9, at least not so soon.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 12/12/2016 05:01 pm
For ITS pad landing Elon said it would have to have thrusters at the bottom of the booster for fine steer ability.

Where did he say that?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DOCinCT on 12/12/2016 08:48 pm
@eeergo Thanks a million  :D

It appears that radiators are back on blue power units - they indeed must have cleaned them.
Mufflers are still not on, but now I can be confident that they will put them back on, and that they are not going to update the blue power units.

So I am back to making my model  :)

Attached photos of what I had built so far.
What scale are you modeling in?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/12/2016 08:49 pm
For ITS pad landing Elon said it would have to have thrusters at the bottom of the booster for fine steer ability.

Where did he say that?

He said it during his keynote at the IAC in Mexico in Sept:

Quote
And we're also getting quite comfortable with the accuracy of the landing. If you've been watching the Falcon 9 landings, you'll see that they're getting increasingly closer to the bull's-eye. And we think, particularly with the addition of some thrusters, maneuvering thrusters, we can actually put the booster right back on the launch stand. And then those pins at the base are essentially centering features to take out any minor position mismatch at the launch site.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 12/14/2016 06:27 am
I am officially making it at 1:100 scale. Making even bigger ship should be really easy but will take space.
Scaling it down to smaller sizes is possible, but will not work well for equipment which is so small that I already have lot of trouble with very small details.

Do you have more pictures of the stern? I want to understand what is going on there  :(
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 12/14/2016 10:08 pm
I know everybody likes high resolution photos of OCSILY so here is today's view. Lots of activity visible.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 12/15/2016 02:58 am
? Something strange is going on in the center of the ASDS' deck. What gives?

It really does look like they're replacing deck plates under the bull-eye - possibly with something a little more heat-resistant than the standard deck-plate.

1. The orange bollards/barricade and welding gear on deck indicate (to me) that at some point earlier they had welders/oxy-cutting (sparks/flame) in progress.
2. There's a portable workbench and forklift to the left for moving plates around and lifting into position.
3. The new 'plates' have a light grey coating.. mild steel would (ordinarily) be red-oxide primer.

Perhaps they noticed some buckling of the deck plates following the last few landings and decided to address the issue before it affected the deck beams and sub-structure (a more expensive fix).

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 12/15/2016 08:14 am
? Something strange is going on in the center of the ASDS' deck. What gives?

It really does look like they're replacing deck plates under the bull-eye - possibly with something a little more heat-resistant than the standard deck-plate.

1. The orange bollards/barricade and welding gear on deck indicate (to me) that at some point earlier they had welders/oxy-cutting (sparks/flame) in progress.
2. There's a portable workbench and forklift to the left for moving plates around and lifting into position.
3. The new 'plates' have a light grey coating.. mild steel would (ordinarily) be red-oxide primer.

Perhaps they noticed some buckling of the deck plates following the last few landings and decided to address the issue before it affected the deck beams and sub-structure (a more expensive fix).

This is probably going to sound nuts, and it's hard to be sure from the pic, but... to me, that new area (the light grey plating) looks like titanium.

My guess... it's either being done just for heat issues, or it's that plus installing something under the deck (perhaps an automated hold-down mechanism?)

I wonder of JRtI is getting the same refit?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 12/15/2016 12:02 pm
? Something strange is going on in the center of the ASDS' deck. What gives?

It really does look like they're replacing deck plates under the bull-eye - possibly with something a little more heat-resistant than the standard deck-plate.

1. The orange bollards/barricade and welding gear on deck indicate (to me) that at some point earlier they had welders/oxy-cutting (sparks/flame) in progress.
2. There's a portable workbench and forklift to the left for moving plates around and lifting into position.
3. The new 'plates' have a light grey coating.. mild steel would (ordinarily) be red-oxide primer.

Perhaps they noticed some buckling of the deck plates following the last few landings and decided to address the issue before it affected the deck beams and sub-structure (a more expensive fix).

This is probably going to sound nuts, and it's hard to be sure from the pic, but... to me, that new area (the light grey plating) looks like titanium.

My guess... it's either being done just for heat issues, or it's that plus installing something under the deck (perhaps an automated hold-down mechanism?)

I wonder of JRtI is getting the same refit?

Or...just painted grey.

Titanium? Why? Hugely expensive and difficult to work. For what benefit? They don't need it to be light - they have plenty of mass margin. In this situation it's no better than thick steel.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 12/15/2016 02:49 pm
SpaceX is doing some major remodeling of OCSILY today! Parts of blast wall are gone. Some containers are gone, some are being moved. I have photos but technical issues prevent me from posting them now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edit - this is the best I can do now. Better photos in the evening.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 12/15/2016 03:24 pm
SpaceX never stand still, do they?
I wonder what's in store?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 12/15/2016 03:59 pm
A picture of a picture, I love it! (PS, you can probably take that protective film off the camera viewfinder, you know)

Thanks Marek. What ARE they up to...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 12/15/2016 06:40 pm
Better quality photos
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 12/15/2016 06:49 pm
GO Quest seems to have some new yellow structure in the back. Whale fishing equipment? ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 12/15/2016 06:53 pm
I think they are raising containers to make space for something.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Joaosg on 12/15/2016 08:10 pm
Is that an observation deck and stairs_ Someone at SpaceX beted that they would stand on the barge while the Falcon is landing_ :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 12/15/2016 11:29 pm
Isn't there some maritime regulations about having a harbor pilot on your barge/ship, even if under tow?  I wonder if that's a spot for the pilot to stand?

I bet those stairs are for the elevated white container, though.  No idea why it was lifted, but the black supports it's on look permanent.  I don't think it's going to end up stacked on anything.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 12/16/2016 03:04 am
Isn't there some maritime regulations about having a harbor pilot on your barge/ship, even if under tow?  I wonder if that's a spot for the pilot to stand?

There is and I'm sure he would.. but he could have climbed on top of a container (at least one had a ladder up the side for access to comms antennas) if he'd needed to in the past.  IMHO, it seems a lot of expense to go to just for the pilot... unless the plan is for the pilot to stay aboard in worse weather further out to sea.

They're certainly making changes whilst they have the opportunity and getting everything more permanent (or at least a lot less temporary), so it seems barge-landings on 'ol "Marmac 304" will be happening for a long time yet.

My uneducated armchair guess is the mods are for Falcon Heavy.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 12/16/2016 06:15 am
I hope these changes are for refueling. :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 12/16/2016 07:08 am
Demonstration of landing a booster in a fixture would bode well for ITS CONOPs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 12/16/2016 07:59 am
Demonstration of landing a booster in a fixture would bode well for ITS CONOPs.

I don't dare even hoping for that. But if then right now is a good time because the next number of flights will be boosters before Block 5 and will see little if any reuse. So easier to risk them on landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 12/16/2016 03:31 pm
If this was a cradle, I think they'll need a place for the exhaust to go.

So either elevated (so the rocket ends up at the same height above deck as it does now) or a hole with side vents, which is much more complicated.

An elevated cradle would be as large as the legs, so I think they are just replacing deck plates.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 12/16/2016 04:59 pm
Looking again, it does not seem to me as though they are doing any mods to the center of the deck. It looked like that because there were either parts being readied to be installed at the ends of the ASDS, or parts pulled off of the ends. Looks like the older shorter legs for one container are piled up in the center, for instance.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/16/2016 05:39 pm
Looking again, it does not seem to me as though they are doing any mods to the center of the deck. It looked like that because there were either parts being readied to be installed at the ends of the ASDS, or parts pulled off of the ends. Looks like the older shorter legs for one container are piled up in the center, for instance.

Matthew
I don't think they would cordon off that area if there wasn't a hazard in the area, such as an opening. There's construction materials all over the deck but they don't set up barricades anywhere else. My guess is they are adding stiffeners under the center of the deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Semmel on 12/16/2016 08:43 pm
Maybe they changed the surface to provide a better radar image for the altimeter measures?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 12/17/2016 11:23 am
I really hope that they won't rise that container permanently or that they rise the other container too since this makes the ship non-symetric and they seemed to avoid this until now.
Also I don't understand what are the benefits of raised container. It is even not covered by blast wall, unless they raise it too.
I think (might be wishful thinking) that they are working on the bottom of the container and thus raised it for now to ease the work.

I also noticed that they did something to forward thruster, I see some welding on it and pi like beam. Again, what they are up to :-(

Some good news are that actually we were right about the power units. Both radiators and mufflers are back on both power units, radiators painted with anti-corrosive paint and mufflers probably replaced or painted too.

I so wish to see the changes end so I could focus on my model again. Is is really hard to find joy continuing it when everything changing like that :-( Yea I know that I should just freeze the model and do it, since anyway the ship will continue changing and will eventually be retired.

:'( And, I wish I had more time to work on this   I put so much effort already and stuck in last 1%  :'(

I would be glad to see any new pictures of the ship, especially the stern
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/17/2016 11:52 am
I really hope that they won't rise that container permanently or that they rise the other container too since this makes the ship non-symetric and they seemed to avoid this until now.
Also I don't understand what are the benefits of raised container. It is even not covered by blast wall, unless they raise it too.
I think (might be wishful thinking) that they are working on the bottom of the container and thus raised it for now to ease the work.

I also noticed that they did something to forward thruster, I see some welding on it and pi like beam. Again, what they are up to :-(

Some good news are that actually we were right about the power units. Both radiators and mufflers are back on both power units, radiators painted with anti-corrosive paint and mufflers probably replaced or painted too.

I so wish to see the changes end so I could focus on my model again. Is is really hard to find joy continuing it when everything changing like that :-( Yea I know that I should just freeze the model and do it, since anyway the ship will continue changing and will eventually be retired.

:'( And, I wish I had more time to work on this   I put so much effort already and stuck in last 1%  :'(

I would be glad to see any new pictures of the ship, especially the stern
Well, considering that the container has permanent conduit wired into it, I'd say it's not temporary. However I do question the seaworthiness of that setup. Just look back at previous damage and you'll see why I question it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 12/17/2016 12:23 pm
Well, considering that the container has permanent conduit wired into it, I'd say it's not temporary. However I do question the seaworthiness of that setup. Just look back at previous damage and you'll see why I question it.

Seems like it's not a big deal unless you go out to sea in a storm, and in any case, they already installed a wall to deal with the height of the waves that damaged it previously.  Making the containers higher will not have any impact on the function of that wall or the height of the waves that hit it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 12/17/2016 12:40 pm
I really hope that they won't rise that container permanently or that they rise the other container too since this makes the ship non-symetric and they seemed to avoid this until now.
Also I don't understand what are the benefits of raised container. It is even not covered by blast wall, unless they raise it too.
I think (might be wishful thinking) that they are working on the bottom of the container and thus raised it for now to ease the work.

I also noticed that they did something to forward thruster, I see some welding on it and pi like beam. Again, what they are up to :-(

Some good news are that actually we were right about the power units. Both radiators and mufflers are back on both power units, radiators painted with anti-corrosive paint and mufflers probably replaced or painted too.

I so wish to see the changes end so I could focus on my model again. Is is really hard to find joy continuing it when everything changing like that :-( Yea I know that I should just freeze the model and do it, since anyway the ship will continue changing and will eventually be retired.

:'( And, I wish I had more time to work on this   I put so much effort already and stuck in last 1%  :'(

I would be glad to see any new pictures of the ship, especially the stern
Well, considering that the container has permanent conduit wired into it, I'd say it's not temporary. However I do question the seaworthiness of that setup. Just look back at previous damage and you'll see why I question it.

It might be not as permanent as it seems. They might have it raised for the duration of the rebuild and want the equipment inside to still be running.

Having said that maybe by raising it they want to imorove VSAT antenna performance by mounting it on the container. I know that it is on the other containeer now but they can move it.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 12/17/2016 11:28 pm
There was a hint earlier about the vsat dropouts being caused by factors such as the ionized exhaust trail, not just vibration.  As such, it could be that repositioning could help... but I'd think you'd be looking for an extreme edge to get as far away from the exhaust as possible.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 12/18/2016 12:50 am
This seems quite permanent to me. If there was a need to temporarily elevate the container, it could have been accomplished with wood cribbing. Instead they made new steel legs for the container and seem to have attached them to the deck. It is a mystery. Whatever the reason, SpaceX does not spend money aimlessly, and this looks kind of expensive. Not expensive compared to operations as a whole, but expensive.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 12/18/2016 03:42 am
This seems quite permanent to me. If there was a need to temporarily elevate the container, it could have been accomplished with wood cribbing. Instead they made new steel legs for the container and seem to have attached them to the deck. It is a mystery. Whatever the reason, SpaceX does not spend money aimlessly, and this looks kind of expensive. Not expensive compared to operations as a whole, but expensive.

Matthew
Especially since containers are made for stacking, and the simplest way to raise a container is to stick another one underneath....  And you get free storage space... 

So whatever the reason, something needs to park there, which does not want to be in a container.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 12/18/2016 07:17 am
Especially since containers are made for stacking, and the simplest way to raise a container is to stick another one underneath....  And you get free storage space... 

So whatever the reason, something needs to park there, which does not want to be in a container.

Bolding mine.

When I read your words, a light went off. (WARNING: blatant wild speculation follows) What if that "something" is some sort of robot, perhaps like a Roomba on steroids, that rolls out post landing, scoots under the F9, and has an upward-pointing fire extinguisher to deal with the "post-landing burn" issue? Or... more advanced yet, has some sort of tie-down system (Perhaps 4 small robots that can latch onto the legs and then activate electromagnets to grip the deck?)?

Could that explain why they raised the container, and also why they are doing something to the blast wall in that area? 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 12/18/2016 07:29 am
maybe a place to keep welding equipment/jack stands? could the cherry picker fit?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 12/18/2016 07:34 am
Especially since containers are made for stacking, and the simplest way to raise a container is to stick another one underneath....  And you get free storage space... 

So whatever the reason, something needs to park there, which does not want to be in a container.

Bolding mine.

When I read your words, a light went off. (WARNING: blatant wild speculation follows) What if that "something" is some sort of robot, perhaps like a Roomba on steroids, that rolls out post landing, scoots under the F9, and has an upward-pointing fire extinguisher to deal with the "post-landing burn" issue? Or... more advanced yet, has some sort of tie-down system (Perhaps 4 small robots that can latch onto the legs and then activate electromagnets to grip the deck?)?

Could that explain why they raised the container, and also why they are doing something to the blast wall in that area?
Yup.  Wanted to keep the wild ideas separate from the quandary, but I can't think of another explanation either...

Which doesn't mean the wild ideas are true of course... Might be something much simpler... 

It has to be important enough to be worth exposing that upper container to a potential blast (does anyone know what's inside it?)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 12/18/2016 08:08 am
I imagine that if the raised container is a permanent feature, the blast wall will be modified to protect it.

Other wild speculation: Handling equipment for vehicle consumables.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 12/18/2016 12:39 pm
Friday's photo
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: eriblo on 12/18/2016 01:39 pm
Friday's photo
Hmmm, SpaceX must have a thing for twins ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/18/2016 01:51 pm
Friday's photo
Hmmm, SpaceX must have a thing for twins ;)
Yeah, I was thinking perhaps Elon had started his clone army. Too funny.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 12/18/2016 05:00 pm
Elon cloned Elsbeth III.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 12/18/2016 06:05 pm
.....does anyone know what's inside it?

For meekGee and anyone else who missed my post last July with a long list of the containers' contents https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1564782#msg1564782

I think (might be wishful thinking) that they are working on the bottom of the container and thus raised it for now to ease the work.
.....I do question the seaworthiness of that setup. Just look back at previous damage and you'll see why I question it.

All I see is a single black cylinder showing in the photo under one end of the container, and some exposed pipes that don't look particularly new, and were probably already there to carry water away from the air handlers inside. The black cylinder looks like an hydraulic jack, presumably duplicated under the other end, and definitely not seaworthy.

They might just be working on the condensation plumbing. Since those pipes aren't flush with the bottom of the container, there must be openings for them in the deck below.

.....and want the equipment inside to still be running.

That would make sense because there are telemetry servers inside, and there is anecdotal evidence that they need to stay within a narrow temperature range.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DAZ on 12/18/2016 06:10 pm
A very well done (except for the occasional twinning problem) high resolution composite photo of the barge.  I can make out the 2 lightning rods and what looks like UHF antennas just below them.  I can see various LED deck lights.  I can make out multiple radar reflectors.  The relatively high gain satellite antenna under its dome is quite apparent.  There is something that looks like a Wi-Fi antenna.  There are 2 objects that I can’t quite identify but could possibly be GPS antennas.  I’m leaning away from them being GPS antennas as they are poorly positioned for that.  I can even make out what looks like a Santa hat up the flagpole.  But I can only make out what looks like to be ONE GPS antenna.  I would normally think that you need a minimum of 2 GPS antennas for adequate positioning.  This doesn’t take into account any backup systems for redundancy.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 12/18/2016 07:14 pm
All I see is a single black cylinder showing in the photo under one end of the container, and some exposed pipes that don't look particularly new, and were probably already there to carry water away from the air handlers inside. The black cylinder looks like an hydraulic jack, presumably duplicated under the other end, and definitely not seaworthy.

They might just be working on the condensation plumbing. Since those pipes aren't flush with the bottom of the container, there must be openings for them in the deck below.

They aren't cylinders, don't appear to be hydraulic jacks, and if metal beams about the size of a person aren't seaworthy I don't know what is.  The conduit/etc that people are talking about are mounted to them, not what you see running along the bottom of the container.

There does not appear to be an opening in the deck below the conduit which is slung along the bottom of the container, so either it was previously sitting on feet to elevate it, or it has been installed since it was raised.

On the last page it was noted that the feet it was probably sitting on are laying near the middle of the deck.

Looks like the older shorter legs for one container are piled up in the center, for instance.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 12/18/2016 07:18 pm
The simple explanation is that this is a temporary raising, and they needed access to the deck underneath.

However, if it turns out to be permanent, then everything above...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 12/18/2016 08:08 pm
They aren't cylinders, don't appear to be hydraulic jacks, and if metal beams about the size of a person aren't seaworthy I don't know what is.  The conduit/etc that people are talking about are mounted to them, not what you see running along the bottom of the container.

Ok thanks, I was looking at Friday's photo Marek reposted, which only made one of the beam legs visible. The beams do look strong, but the small tops the container is resting on do not.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 12/18/2016 08:14 pm
Ok thanks, I was looking at Friday's photo Marek reposted, which only made one of the beam legs visible. The beams do look strong, but the small tops the container is resting on do not.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1620600#msg1620600

The containers stack that way.  If you look closely in the attachment, you can see that they only contact each other in the corners.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 12/18/2016 08:55 pm
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1620600#msg1620600

The containers stack that way.  If you look closely in the attachment, you can see that they only contact each other in the corners.

I'll believe the evidence that kind of stacking can be secure, but the container in question is top heavy, unlike the Falcon first stage. There are two air handlers hanging from the ceiling inside, estimated by a HVAC professional to each be capable of 4 tons of cooling. However I'm only guessing those would far outweigh the servers, monitors, and desk below.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 12/18/2016 10:17 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twistlock
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 12/18/2016 10:45 pm
The simple explanation is that this is a temporary raising, and they needed access to the deck underneath.

That seems like a better explanation to me.. especially if it's a permanent mod.  If it is indeed a comms container, another might be electrical isolation and better access to cabling exiting the floor of the container.  In my experience with elevated switch-rooms, this allows you to put a lot more gear inside.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 12/18/2016 10:49 pm
From Fish Lips today. Looks like blast wall and thrusters are getting paint refresh.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 12/19/2016 03:33 am
And look, there's Captain Phillips' orange lifeboat in the background.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 12/19/2016 08:07 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twistlock
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 12/19/2016 09:01 pm
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1620600#msg1620600

The containers stack that way.  If you look closely in the attachment, you can see that they only contact each other in the corners.

I'll believe the evidence that kind of stacking can be secure, but the container in question is top heavy, unlike the Falcon first stage. There are two air handlers hanging from the ceiling inside, estimated by a HVAC professional to each be capable of 4 tons of cooling. However I'm only guessing those would far outweigh the servers, monitors, and desk below.

You can go down to Sears and buy a "2 ton(24,000 BTU)" air conditioner for about $500, you can drive it home box included in the back seat of your sedan, it fits in a window, and it weighs about 130-150 pounds.  "4 tons" of air conditioning would need about as much power as a standard residential electric stove/oven(230v/50A).  Far from epic proportions.

Cargo containers themselves are quite heavy even when empty, and they are rated to carry a lot more than SpaceX is putting in them.  Even an actual 4 tons loaded "high up" in a container would be nothing, as should be immediately evident when you see even two stacked on top of each other.

You can find pictures of accidents of anything if you want to be contrary.  This is how they are designed and used all around the world every day.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 12/20/2016 12:06 am
You never hear of intermodel stack trains loosing containers off the top...  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd6C7suyH5s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd6C7suyH5s)

I'm sure it's happened... but google is drawing a blank...  ;D

on edit...
Double stack starts at 55 secs in... wait for it...  :o
Point is... I'm not concerned if they jack it up and leave it... It will hold just fine...

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 12/20/2016 10:05 pm
Barges don't have pilots...

It is not that simple.  First off, this isn't a barge.. it's an "Industrial Vessel" (a.k.a. a Barge With Purpose :) ) and secondly, the USCG Rules allow an appropriately-credentialed tug-master to "act as" a pilot in circumstances where a pilot is required.

Refer "Minding the Helm: Marine Navigation and Piloting"  https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=0309561922 (https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=0309561922)
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 12/22/2016 09:15 am
Any more pictures?  :-\
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 12/23/2016 05:24 pm
SpaceX turned OCILY around
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 12/23/2016 05:49 pm
White container at the bow is back at least. Don't notice more changes  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 12/24/2016 01:53 pm
Also stern generators are still gone, after I put so much effort to create textures for them :-(
Overall I really don't like the recent changes  :(
(Unless they will improve landing odds somehow, but I doubt on that.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 12/25/2016 04:10 am
Also stern generators are still gone, after I put so much effort to create textures for them :-(
Overall I really don't like the recent changes  :(
(Unless they will improve landing odds somehow, but I doubt on that.)

Change is gonna happen. You have to roll with the punches, or freeze in time. Whinging isn't helpful. Thanks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 12/25/2016 05:17 am
This ship went through many changes and I wasn't whining. They replaced power units, replaced blast wall, replaced generators, added two 'roofs' to stern's blast wall, added ladder,....

I wasn't whining about this as all these changes had a purpose.
Current changes which include fences on everything and the container raising don't have a clear purpose other that complying with some sort of regulations or even change for sake of change.

That is what I whine about  :-\
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 12/25/2016 01:11 pm
This ship went through many changes and I wasn't whining. They replaced power units, replaced blast wall, replaced generators, added two 'roofs' to stern's blast wall, added ladder,....

I wasn't whining about this as all these changes had a purpose.
Current changes which include fences on everything and the container raising don't have a clear purpose other that complying with some sort of regulations or even change for sake of change.

That is what I whine about  :-\

Do you KNOW that or are you just speculating? And even if the changes are just "complying with some sort of regulation", you realize those regulations have a purpose and rationale, right?

Please stop whining.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 12/25/2016 02:43 pm
Speculation of course.
Last time they installed ladder, now fences.
I'll try not to whine :) but if you get new pictures I'll gladly see them.
I so want to see RTF already  :( (I hope I can whine about that...)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 12/25/2016 05:20 pm
..... better access to cabling exiting the floor of the container. In my experience with elevated switch-rooms, this allows you to put a lot more gear inside.

Those sound like reasonable explanations for raising the container, and another might be to increase the flow of air underneath to help keep the servers cool. The dark deck sitting under the sun in port and out to sea was probably doing a good job of cooking the servers.

Current changes which include fences on everything and the container raising don't have a clear purpose other that complying with some sort of regulations or even change for sake of change.

The addition of fencing might be partly a result of influence from Tesla operations. Someone was badly injured from a fall at the Fremont factory in May of last year, and someone else was injured in a fall at the Gigafactory in July of this year. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, "Unintentional Fall" has consistently been the primary reason for emergency room admissions for 8 to 9 out of 10 age groups. Latest stats I could find are for 2013 at https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/leading_causes_of_nonfatal_injury_2013-a.pdf
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Santos on 12/25/2016 06:14 pm
..... better access to cabling exiting the floor of the container. In my experience with elevated switch-rooms, this allows you to put a lot more gear inside.

Those sound like reasonable explanations for raising the container, and another might be to increase the flow of air underneath to help keep the servers cool. The dark deck sitting under the sun in port and out to sea was probably doing a good job of cooking the servers.

Current changes which include fences on everything and the container raising don't have a clear purpose other that complying with some sort of regulations or even change for sake of change.

The addition of fencing might be partly a result of influence from Tesla operations. Someone was badly injured from a fall at the Fremont factory in May of last year, and someone else was injured in a fall at the Gigafactory in July of this year. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, "Unintentional Fall" has consistently been the primary reason for emergency room admissions for 8 to 9 out of 10 age groups. Latest stats I could find are for 2013 at https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/leading_causes_of_nonfatal_injury_2013-a.pdf

If only the Empire had an OSHA, the Death Star would have been a much less scary place to try to destroy.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/25/2016 08:00 pm
..... better access to cabling exiting the floor of the container. In my experience with elevated switch-rooms, this allows you to put a lot more gear inside.

Those sound like reasonable explanations for raising the container, and another might be to increase the flow of air underneath to help keep the servers cool. The dark deck sitting under the sun in port and out to sea was probably doing a good job of cooking the servers.

Current changes which include fences on everything and the container raising don't have a clear purpose other that complying with some sort of regulations or even change for sake of change.

The addition of fencing might be partly a result of influence from Tesla operations. Someone was badly injured from a fall at the Fremont factory in May of last year, and someone else was injured in a fall at the Gigafactory in July of this year. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, "Unintentional Fall" has consistently been the primary reason for emergency room admissions for 8 to 9 out of 10 age groups. Latest stats I could find are for 2013 at https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/leading_causes_of_nonfatal_injury_2013-a.pdf
Sorry, but I don't agree at all. My two cents, but it at least is somewhat anchored in marine experience and engineering. They wouldn't raise the container for any of those reasons. Putting it up on high legs adds torque to rolling and pitching movements and adds high stress points to small footprints (where legs attach to deck). They wouldn't raise it for air circulation because you don't circulate raw (read: salt) air, you circulate conditioned and dried air. They wouldn't elevate the container to get an antenna higher, they would put the antenna on a mast. It's not a temporary situation because the wouldn't bend conduit they would just use flexible lines if it was temporary. Perhaps it's for storage under, though no idea what - and that's an interesting path to speculate on. It's a very intriguing development in the evolution of the ASDS, as may also be with regards to the center deck work. I can't wait for the next clue!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 12/25/2016 08:53 pm
From Fish Lips today. Looks like blast wall and thrusters are getting paint refresh.

@maximlevitsky At port side on wave wall an inflatable life raft as well and I'd be disappointed if it doesn't actually inflate in your model  ;D

Lovely images, many changes, much happy. How crazy one has to be to have crew on-board during landing?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 12/25/2016 09:04 pm
From Fish Lips today. Looks like blast wall and thrusters are getting paint refresh.

@maximlevitsky At port side on wave wall an inflatable life raft as well and I'd be disappointed if it doesn't actually inflate in your model  ;D

Lovely images, many changes, much happy. How crazy one has to be to have crew on-board during landing?

Thanks for the info! I always wandered what it is.  :P
Any idea what are the tall poles with rectangles on top are?

Also any links to where I could find more info on the ladder?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ohsin on 12/25/2016 09:43 pm
Those are lights. And life raft is from RFD, you'd would have to look around.

http://www.rfd.com.au/products/marine/liferafts/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: bstrong on 12/27/2016 04:22 pm
A few cell phone snaps from this morning (first stop on our family vacation).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: starhawk92 on 12/28/2016 01:28 pm
For those who know, does raising the box remove the amount of blast the box has to take?  Those are some beefy conduit runs, certainly not just for networking.  Is there any way to estimate power provided based on conduit size?  We know there are two A/C units in there, and "servers" (details anyone?).  What other information could be captured?  Could the stabilization process be getting an upgrade?  Is it better for gyros to be up and off the landing plane so they "feel" changes to the deck pitch more strongly?

Could this be the largest single amount of speculation in one post on this entire thread?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 12/28/2016 03:54 pm
For those who know, does raising the box remove the amount of blast the box has to take?  Those are some beefy conduit runs, certainly not just for networking.  Is there any way to estimate power provided based on conduit size?  We know there are two A/C units in there, and "servers" (details anyone?).  What other information could be captured?  Could the stabilization process be getting an upgrade?  Is it better for gyros to be up and off the landing plane so they "feel" changes to the deck pitch more strongly?

Could this be the largest single amount of speculation in one post on this entire thread?
If the raising is permanent, the #1 question should be - why not place another container underneath.

That's the simplest way to do it (no engineering required), and adds enclosed space, which you can always use more of.

Instead, they chose four columns, leaving a bunch of open space. So I'd think that whatever goes there does not want to be in a box.

If that line of logic holds, then speculation from this point is wild.

Something that wheels onto the deck?  Fire suppression?  Secure-in-place?

Remember there was some work done in mid deck, either just resurfacing or some improvement.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 12/31/2016 04:56 pm
For a January 7 launch from VAFB, when would we expect JRTI to leave port?
Do we have anyone checking on it on a regular basis?  Is it visible on any webcams?

edit:  Do we expect SpaceX to use JTRI, or do we think they will attempt RTLS?  Have we seen a completed landing pad with the big X on it?  Are we still waiting to hear of Air Force approval as Jim suggested in the "SpaceX VAFB landing facilities" thread?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jarnis on 12/31/2016 06:36 pm
For a January 7 launch from VAFB, when would we expect JRTI to leave port?
Do we have anyone checking on it on a regular basis?  Is it visible on any webcams?

edit:  Do we expect SpaceX to use JTRI, or do we think they will attempt RTLS?  Have we seen a completed landing pad with the big X on it?  Are we still waiting to hear of Air Force approval as Jim suggested in the "SpaceX VAFB landing facilities" thread?

Not RTLS. Definitely droneship this time around. Mass, target orbit, the fact that this is a polar launch.

Droneship leaves 3-4 days in advance?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 12/31/2016 07:39 pm
 "Fences" reduce or eliminate the need for fall protection, which is time consuming, inconvenient and has safety issues itself. Permanent containers with their own floors are often raised so they don't block maintenance/inspection access to the deck. Also for barges that can be heavily loaded or ballasted for storms and get waves over the deck.
 These things will have to turn around in a few days without needing an overhaul every time and it sounds like they're doing the barge/ops fine tuning needed.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Flying Beaver on 12/31/2016 07:41 pm
For a January 7 launch from VAFB, when would we expect JRTI to leave port?
Do we have anyone checking on it on a regular basis?  Is it visible on any webcams?

edit:  Do we expect SpaceX to use JTRI, or do we think they will attempt RTLS?  Have we seen a completed landing pad with the big X on it?  Are we still waiting to hear of Air Force approval as Jim suggested in the "SpaceX VAFB landing facilities" thread?

Marine Traffic tracking of the tug.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 12/31/2016 08:13 pm
For a January 7 launch from VAFB, when would we expect JRTI to leave port?
Do we have anyone checking on it on a regular basis?  Is it visible on any webcams?

edit:  Do we expect SpaceX to use JTRI, or do we think they will attempt RTLS?  Have we seen a completed landing pad with the big X on it?  Are we still waiting to hear of Air Force approval as Jim suggested in the "SpaceX VAFB landing facilities" thread?

Not RTLS. Definitely droneship this time around. Mass, target orbit, the fact that this is a polar launch.

Droneship leaves 3-4 days in advance?

This one will definitely go to the droneship, but it's certainly not out of the question that F9 with coming upgrades has the performance to deliver 10 of them and still RTLS the booster.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 12/31/2016 08:21 pm
For a January 7 launch from VAFB, when would we expect JRTI to leave port?
Do we have anyone checking on it on a regular basis?  Is it visible on any webcams?

edit:  Do we expect SpaceX to use JTRI, or do we think they will attempt RTLS?  Have we seen a completed landing pad with the big X on it?  Are we still waiting to hear of Air Force approval as Jim suggested in the "SpaceX VAFB landing facilities" thread?

Marine Traffic tracking of the tug.

What's the name of the west coast tug?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 12/31/2016 08:35 pm
American Islander I think. Support ship is NRC Quest
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 12/31/2016 08:59 pm
American Islander I think. Support ship is NRC Quest

I thought American Islander was the Dragon recovery ship, but I guess it has a second purpose.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Raul on 01/01/2017 12:52 am
What's the name of the west coast tug?
In case of Jason-3 flight it was International Freedom.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 01/04/2017 03:53 pm
Since SpaceX hasn't landed a stage launched from VAFB, where will they offload, safe the stage? Do they have the same stand [with deep pad anchoring], cranes and GSE that they process the S1 for Transport? Do we have members that can document the offloading procedures? Thanks in advance ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 01/04/2017 03:54 pm
Since SpaceX hasn't landed a stage launched from VAFB, where will they offload, safe the stage? Do they have the same stand [with deep pad anchoring], cranes and GSE that they process the S1 for Transport? Do we have members that can document the offloading procedures? Thanks in advance ;D
Didn't they build a stand over on the dock where they moor the ASDS?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 01/04/2017 04:28 pm
Since SpaceX hasn't landed a stage launched from VAFB, where will they offload, safe the stage? Do they have the same stand [with deep pad anchoring], cranes and GSE that they process the S1 for Transport? Do we have members that can document the offloading procedures? Thanks in advance ;D
Didn't they build a stand over on the dock where they moor the ASDS?

IDK: i haven't seen any pictures in a while. They have offloaded stage fragments, but never safed/disassembled one in Cali.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sdsds on 01/05/2017 06:00 am
It looks to me like American Islander lit up her vessel tracking equipment a few hours ago, albeit just briefly. I believe it had been "dark" for several days prior.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 01/05/2017 07:29 am
looks like NRC quest has moved around
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: The Roadie on 01/05/2017 06:56 pm


What's the name of the west coast tug?
In case of Jason-3 flight it was International Freedom.
Which is currently in Hawaii.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nydoc on 01/05/2017 07:12 pm
NRC Quest is about 15 miles off of the coast and headed southwest, following behind the tug Pacific Warrior.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 01/05/2017 07:32 pm
PACIFIC WARRIOR may just be the tug pulling JRTI out...  8)

Will have to keep an eye on that one...  :)

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:434121/mmsi:367008820/imo:7641384/vessel:PACIFIC_WARRIOR (http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:434121/mmsi:367008820/imo:7641384/vessel:PACIFIC_WARRIOR)

History info on boat...
http://www.tugboatinformation.com/tug.cfm?id=6778 (http://www.tugboatinformation.com/tug.cfm?id=6778)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 01/05/2017 07:40 pm
PACIFIC WARRIOR may just be the tug pulling JRTI out...  8)

Will have to keep an eye on that one...  :)

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:434121/mmsi:367008820/imo:7641384/vessel:PACIFIC_WARRIOR (http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:434121/mmsi:367008820/imo:7641384/vessel:PACIFIC_WARRIOR)

History info on boat...
http://www.tugboatinformation.com/tug.cfm?id=6778 (http://www.tugboatinformation.com/tug.cfm?id=6778)

MarineTraffic tag on NRC Quest says destination is "Training" and Pacific Warrior Dest is 100 NM S of Cortez Bank
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 01/05/2017 07:46 pm
PACIFIC WARRIOR may just be the tug pulling JRTI out...  8)

Will have to keep an eye on that one...  :)

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:434121/mmsi:367008820/imo:7641384/vessel:PACIFIC_WARRIOR (http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:434121/mmsi:367008820/imo:7641384/vessel:PACIFIC_WARRIOR)

History info on boat...
http://www.tugboatinformation.com/tug.cfm?id=6778 (http://www.tugboatinformation.com/tug.cfm?id=6778)

MarineTraffic tag on NRC Quest says destination is "Training" and Pacific Warrior Dest is 100 NM S of Cortez Bank

Anyone have the JTRI location from the Jason-3 mission for comparison? Seems about the right place for an offshore F9 recovery, roughly 300 miles south of VAFB.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 01/05/2017 07:57 pm
Quoting from way back, with a link to a map with various bits on it, some possibly relevant:

Here's a link to the map made by darga showing the barge location for Jason-3 as specified on the FCC transmitter permit.

It appears to be positioned to allow a booostback just west of the Channel Islands, getting as close to the islands as possible without overflying them.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zXmjsQgIEPtk.kEXviMLLYGIk

Looks to me as if it's a reasonable vicinity, more or less.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 01/05/2017 08:18 pm
I wouldn't think NRC Quest is heading out for the launch yet. The Quest ships cruise in the 12 knot range whereas a tug towing an ASDS is more in the 2-5 knot range and usually depart ahead of the support ships. NRC Quest it likely just shaking off the cobwebs...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 01/06/2017 05:17 am
pacific warrior still going. nrc quest back in LBC
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Raul on 01/06/2017 07:04 am
Quoting from way back, with a link to a map with various bits on it, some possibly relevant:

Here's a link to the map made by darga showing the barge location for Jason-3 as specified on the FCC transmitter permit.

It appears to be positioned to allow a booostback just west of the Channel Islands, getting as close to the islands as possible without overflying them.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zXmjsQgIEPtk.kEXviMLLYGIk

Looks to me as if it's a reasonable vicinity, more or less.

DroneShip target position  (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1wvgFIPuOmI8da9EIB88tHo9vamo&ll=31.154911526171606%2C-120.38368842230904&z=9) is 96km southwards from last Jason-3 landing position. 342km from the port and 372km from launch pad.

From actual position of Pacific Warrior it is approx. 220km. By speed of 6 knot it could take about 20 hours.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sdsds on 01/06/2017 08:06 am
I can't seem to reconcile the FCC license location with the stated destination of Pacific Warrior: "100NM S CORTEZ BNK."

Cortes Bank is roughly 119.2 degrees west; the FCC location is 120.5 degrees west.

EDIT:
Wikipedia says Cortes Bank is 32 28 41N, 119 12 54W. 100 NM is 185.2 km. So the stated destination of Pacific Warrior is 30 48 46N, 119 12 54W.

That's 134.8 km from the FCC location of  31 17 45N, 120 30 46W.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 01/06/2017 01:16 pm
I can't seem to reconcile the FCC license location with the stated destination of Pacific Warrior: "100NM S CORTEZ BNK."

Cortes Bank is roughly 119.2 degrees west; the FCC location is 120.5 degrees west.

EDIT:
Wikipedia says Cortes Bank is 32 28 41N, 119 12 54W. 100 NM is 185.2 km. So the stated destination of Pacific Warrior is 30 48 46N, 119 12 54W.

That's 134.8 km from the FCC location of  31 17 45N, 120 30 46W.

31 17 45N, 120 30 46W is 97 nautical miles from 32 28 41N, 119 12 54W in a south/southwest-ish direction. I think you're inferring too much precision from the stated destination, particularly the direction.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 01/06/2017 01:24 pm
Quick glance at the NDBC has this the closest buoy... (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170106/89c6e1893f3b26dcb11b435e01f4e156.png)

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=46047
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 01/07/2017 04:49 am
warrior recently made a turn to the south east. nrc quest still in the lbc.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 01/08/2017 01:01 am
warrior did a 180. might be entering a holding pattern or probably turning back to port because of the delay.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Blizzzard on 01/11/2017 08:17 am
It looks like they're back at port, and are still there.

When would we expect JRTI and Pacific Warrior to head back out for the launch? Imminently I'd guess...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sdsds on 01/11/2017 09:04 am
The tug Pacific Warrior appears to be on the move!

(EDIT to add: As she passes by Sea Launch Commander I imagine her thinking, "There but for the grace of God go I."
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sdsds on 01/11/2017 10:01 am
Sarah C trailed Pacific Warrior most of the way there. She may be involved in operations.
Note some other traffic is currently active in the aisle.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sdsds on 01/11/2017 11:22 am
Pacific Warrior presumably with ASDS in tow has left the harbor.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 01/11/2017 06:46 pm
Outbound about 5 knots...  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 01/12/2017 03:18 pm
NRC Quest is underway. (https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=9271195)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 01/12/2017 04:34 pm
NRC Quest is underway. (https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=9271195)

From that link:
Sailing to / ETA
GOD'S COUNTRY / Jan 14, 10:00
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sdsds on 01/12/2017 11:20 pm
NRC Quest approaching the last available position of Pacific Warrior.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 01/13/2017 08:06 pm
NRC Quest is underway. (https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=9271195)

NRC Quest approaching the last available position of Pacific Warrior.

Just for the sake of completion, here's the similar link for Pacific Warrior (https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=7641384).  No update since early Thursday morning though.  FYI, these locations were right at the northeastern corner of the NOTAM boxes announced a couple days ago (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35112.msg1628645#msg1628645).

EDIT:  According to Johnnyhinbos:
Pacific Warrior is the tug that would be towing ASDS.
NRC Quest doesn't tow an ASDS; it's a logistics support vessel.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 01/14/2017 05:15 pm
Just to make sure that I get the processing flow correct, which port will be used for post-launch delivery for West Coast launches? Long Beach or the one at VAFB?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 01/14/2017 05:18 pm
After all those heartbreaking "so-close yet so far" attempts off Florida (When JRTI was based on Jacksonville), then Jason 3 off California, finally JRTI has its first successful landing!

And that landing video that SpaceX gave us this time... WOW!

I'm hearing quite a bit of venting-type noise intermittently on the technical feed, and I suspect it's not the second stage (as that's in a vacuum). Any chance we could be hearing live audio from JRTI? 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 01/15/2017 04:56 am
According to the two Vesselfinder links I posted above (click "Track"), both tugs appeared online Saturday afternoon, turned and headed at about 3.5 knots towards the southeast.  How far back do they have to stay back (do they have to stay out of the MOTAM boxes or are they exempt?) and how long does it normally* take for them to get to an ASDS?

Also, I thought someone said that the slower 3.5 knot speed indicates they are towing ASDS, because they would cruise at 11-12 knots when under no load.  But if they're heading to the southeast to intercept the ASDS, why so slow?

Finally, repeating Penguin's question just above, where will they process this booster?  Long Beach?

* Ha, "normally", this is apparently normal now :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 01/15/2017 08:39 am
I recall that there is a rocket stand at the long beach pier. So probably there.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 01/15/2017 04:03 pm
Pacific Warrior appears to have arrived, because it's been at a standstill since about 1600 UTC today.  NRC Quest speed reports are erratic, so it's probably maneuvering around.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cwr on 01/15/2017 08:27 pm
Pacific Warrior appears to have arrived, because it's been at a standstill since about 1600 UTC today.  NRC Quest speed reports are erratic, so it's probably maneuvering around.

I think it's about 5+ hours since ChrisC's post - I was looking at Vessel finder and it shows
NRC Quest sailing to LA ETA Jan 16 1900 [I assume that's UTC i.e ETA 11am Monday.
Pacific Warrior sailing to LA ETA Oct 09 18:30 which I don't understand.
However Pacific Warriors track looks pretty straight line for some hours and it looks like NRC Quest is travelling in same direction. Pacific Warrior at 3.5 knots and NRC Quest at 5.1 knots.

Can anybody clarify what this means.

Thanks

Carl

Edit: Must have been my fumble fingers - now corrected speeds. I'm guessing Pacific Warriors ETA is simply because it hasn't been set yet?

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 01/15/2017 08:51 pm
And Marmac 304 (OCISLY) is getting ready to be deployed:
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 01/15/2017 08:59 pm
Pacific Warrior appears to have arrived, because it's been at a standstill since about 1600 UTC today.  NRC Quest speed reports are erratic, so it's probably maneuvering around.

I think it's about 5+ hours since ChrisC's post - I was looking at Vessel finder and it shows
NRC Quest sailing to LA ETA Jan 16 1900 [I assume that's UTC i.e ETA 11am Monday.
Pacific Warrior sailing to LA ETA Oct 09 18:30 which I don't understand.
However Pacific Warriors track looks pretty straight line for some hours and it looks like NRC Quest is travelling in same direction. Pacific Warrior at 3.5 knots and NRC Quest at 5.1 knots.

Can anybody clarify what this means.

Thanks

Carl

Pacific Warrior has shown in the recent past it can drag JRTI at just over 5 knots... so that seems normal...
NRC Quest will likely shadow the pair all the way back in... to render aid if needed...
Getting back Monday noon-ish fits the timeframe needed...

My speculations now... all just my opinion on topic...
My guess is JRTI is slightly less ballasted then OCISLY and is easier to drag thru the water...
Pacific Warrior seems not afraid to use his/her engines hard... Elsbeth II's captain seems to baby his (my opinion).

On edit... updated your post to show your corrections made...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 01/15/2017 09:08 pm
Indeed, at around 1930 UTC they both started steaming towards the north-northeast at about 5 knots, aimed straight towards Long Beach.  They're currently 200 nm from LB, so our first arrival estimate would be 40 hours from now, or Tuesday morning.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 01/15/2017 09:15 pm
I like your math better then mine and NRC Quest's...  ;)
Tuesday... midday seems more likely...  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 01/15/2017 09:57 pm
To bring this thread back on topic (ie. away from https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111.0 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111.0) that seems to have been left in a corner slowly starving...)

Many congratulations to the SpaceX team for a successful touchdown - on JRtI this time!! :) The touchdown seemed to be not only smooth but in a moderate swell also.

I notice they've given up hosing the deck down and, although the paint job seemed a little scorched, there appeared to be no obvious ill effects on the video and none of the usual flames and smoke.

I do wonder though: Do Falcons get sea-sick??  ;D
 


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 01/15/2017 11:43 pm
To bring this thread back on topic (ie. away from https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111.0 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111.0) that seems to have been left in a corner slowly starving...)

Many congratulations to the SpaceX team for a successful touchdown - on JRtI this time!! :) The touchdown seemed to be not only smooth but in a moderate swell also.

I notice they've given up hosing the deck down and, although the paint job seemed a little scorched, there appeared to be no obvious ill effects on the video and none of the usual flames and smoke.

I do wonder though: Do Falcons get sea-sick??  ;D

I posted a bit of info about NRC quest - as to why I'm a bit doubtful it's towing JRTI - in the support ship thread. (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111.msg1630774#msg1630774) :)
Edit: it's not towing JRTI, I was wrong.

I wholeheartedly agree on congratulations to SpaceX and JRTI! It's been a long time coming for JRTI; all those kabooms, kablewyes, kabloonas, ka-bangs, etc.

Interesting observation about not hosing down the deck this time. I don't think that's just a JRTI thing, because I think they hosed it on Jason 3.

They do indeed seem to have omitted the post-landing burn this time.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ehb on 01/15/2017 11:58 pm
Pacific Warrior last report 0h 5m ago
projections computed as straight line to Los Angeles
based upon current speed:
 arrival projected 1d 8h 47m from now
 which is Tue Jan 17 01:46 PST 2017
based upon average of last 10 reported speeds:
 arrival projected 1d 15h 23m from now
 which is Tue Jan 17 08:22 PST 2017

computed on data (including Sat-AIS)  from marinetraffic.com
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 01/16/2017 12:07 am
To bring this thread back on topic (ie. away from https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111.0 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111.0) that seems to have been left in a corner slowly starving...)

Many congratulations to the SpaceX team for a successful touchdown - on JRtI this time!! :) The touchdown seemed to be not only smooth but in a moderate swell also.

I notice they've given up hosing the deck down and, although the paint job seemed a little scorched, there appeared to be no obvious ill effects on the video and none of the usual flames and smoke.

I do wonder though: Do Falcons get sea-sick??  ;D

I posted a bit of info about NRC quest - as to why I'm a bit doubtful it's towing JRTI - in the support ship thread. (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111.msg1630774#msg1630774) :)

I wholeheartedly agree on congratulations to SpaceX and JRTI! It's been a long time coming for JRTI; all those kabooms, kablewyes, kabloonas, ka-bangs, etc.

Interesting observation about not hosing down the deck this time. I don't think that's just a JRTI thing, because I think they hosed it on Jason 3.

They do indeed seem to have omitted the post-landing burn this time.
NRC Quest isn't a tug. It doesn't tow an ASDS. It's a logistics support vessel.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 01/16/2017 12:23 am
NRC Quest isn't a tug. It doesn't tow an ASDS. It's a logistics support vessel.

OOPS, my bad. Thanks for the info - I'll go correct my posts.

I hope someone in the region will be dockside to get us some photos when JRTI and the F9 come in.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 01/16/2017 01:59 pm
Let's have a dedicated thread for this one's return. Split out the latest posts to make that thread, but copy any useful posts from earlier in the thread over to the new thread:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42052.0
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nick L on 01/16/2017 09:10 pm
And Marmac 304 (OCISLY) is getting ready to be deployed:
Other photos were taken recently: http://imgur.com/a/WyJCG
Some blast walls are removed and one containers is higher than usual.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Saabstory88 on 01/16/2017 10:14 pm
And Marmac 304 (OCISLY) is getting ready to be deployed:
Other photos were taken recently: http://imgur.com/a/WyJCG
Some blast walls are removed and one containers is higher than usual.

The title says 2016, is this a typo?

Edit: Or on a second read, is that December 1st 2016?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zucal on 01/18/2017 06:56 am
I'm making a diagram of the ASDS, and am having trouble finding some dimensions. What's the distance between the start of the ASDS and the start of the wings on either end? Essentially, where do they start jutting out from the main body of the Marmac?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 01/18/2017 12:42 pm
I'm making a diagram of the ASDS, and am having trouble finding some dimensions. What's the distance between the start of the ASDS and the start of the wings on either end? Essentially, where do they start jutting out from the main body of the Marmac?

You can use my model:
https://github.com/maximlevitsky/ASDS/blob/master/dimision_plan/top.svg

The dimisions of this SVG are such as each mm = 1 foot of real model and I tried my best to be as close as possible to the 304.

Note that now they moved things around, raised the container, etc  :( - I hope one day to update the model and actually finish it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zucal on 01/18/2017 02:25 pm
Do you know where you sourced the wing dimensions from?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 01/18/2017 02:30 pm
Eyeballed everything. Cross checked with *lot* of images from any possible angle, and equipment for which some dimisions are known (thrusters, power units, containers,..).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CyndyC on 01/19/2017 01:26 am
I'm making a diagram of the ASDS, and am having trouble finding some dimensions. What's the distance between the start of the ASDS and the start of the wings on either end? Essentially, where do they start jutting out from the main body of the Marmac?

Last I looked over a year ago, the dimensions of the Marmac 304 and similar models were still Googleable, which of course you can subtract from the current dimensions.

Chris Bergin wrote an article about the ASDS in Nov 2014, and near the bottom there is a schematic showing the total dimensions and the dimensions of the bullseye. https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/11/spacex-autonomous-spaceport-drone-ship/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dglow on 01/20/2017 05:57 pm
Mr. Munroe does it again (http://xkcd.com/1788/):
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 01/20/2017 06:27 pm
See also the hover-text:
Quote
My life goal is to launch a barge into the air and have it land on one of Elon Musk's rockets.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 01/20/2017 07:40 pm
See also the hover-text:
Quote
My life goal is to launch a barge into the air and have it land on one of Elon Musk's rockets.

Sometimes he does try too hard.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 01/23/2017 09:48 pm
Bumming around, I found myself in the SpaceX online store, where I found this:

https://shop.spacex.com/accessories/spacex-luggage-tag-set.html

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CraigLieb on 01/24/2017 12:23 pm
Bumming around, I found myself in the SpaceX online store, where I found this:

https://shop.spacex.com/accessories/spacex-luggage-tag-set.html

I got them as a Christmas present this year! very excited.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 01/24/2017 03:29 pm
We've ordered the OCISLY and JRtI tee shirts.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 01/24/2017 03:46 pm
We've ordered the OCISLY and JRtI tee shirts.
I'm sure Jim disapproves.  Who cares about barges? ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 01/24/2017 03:48 pm
We've ordered the OCISLY and JRtI tee shirts.
I'm sure Jim disapproves.  Who cares about barges? ;)

I even threw away the luggage tags I got (I don't know from where)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 01/24/2017 05:27 pm
We've ordered the OCISLY and JRtI tee shirts.
I'm sure Jim disapproves.  Who cares about barges? ;)

I even threw away the luggage tags I got (I don't know from where)

There's a place called Ebay, you may wish to investigate it for excess freebies.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 01/24/2017 05:55 pm
We've ordered the OCISLY and JRtI tee shirts.
I'm sure Jim disapproves.  Who cares about barges? ;)

I even threw away the luggage tags I got (I don't know from where)

There's a place called Ebay, you may wish to investigate it for excess freebies.

2 for $20?  I don't pay for other people advertising.  Don't have anything with logos from school, sports team, corporate, athletic wear, etc.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 01/24/2017 06:12 pm
We've ordered the OCISLY and JRtI tee shirts.
I'm sure Jim disapproves.  Who cares about barges? ;)

I even threw away the luggage tags I got (I don't know from where)

There's a place called Ebay, you may wish to investigate it for excess freebies.

2 for $20?  I don't pay for other people advertising.  Don't have anything with logos from school, sports team, corporate, athletic wear, etc.

I think he was saying to sell them instead of throwing them away.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Joaosg on 01/24/2017 06:14 pm

2 for $20?  I don't pay for other people advertising.  Don't have anything with logos from school, sports team, corporate, athletic wear, etc.

Not surprised. But if you give me your address i will send a shirt saying "I'm always right - Jim" and i bet you won't throw away that one  :)

BTW and back on topic any update on OCISLY upgrades? Next Falcon mission from the cape is expendable and the other one is CRS10 (maybe RTLS), she won't get any RP1 soot until March...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dglow on 01/24/2017 07:20 pm
2 for $20?  I don't pay for other people advertising.  Don't have anything with logos from school, sports team, corporate, athletic wear, etc.

You might dig, in part at least, Naomi Klein's book "No Logo".


(not to be confused with Lar's recurring nightmare, "No Lego")
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 01/24/2017 07:46 pm
2 for $20?  I don't pay for other people advertising.  Don't have anything with logos from school, sports team, corporate, athletic wear, etc.

You might dig, in part at least, Naomi Klein's book "No Logo".


(not to be confused with Lar's recurring nightmare, "No Lego")
I am not going to Mars if I can't take at least some LEGO elements with me...  And ya, I hear Jim, I don't wear many logos either, 'cept IBM... (and LEGO, duh)

Back on topic...
What updates does OCISLY need at this point? Thought she was in pretty good shape...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 01/24/2017 09:10 pm
2 for $20?  I don't pay for other people advertising.  Don't have anything with logos from school, sports team, corporate, athletic wear, etc.

You might dig, in part at least, Naomi Klein's book "No Logo".


(not to be confused with Lar's recurring nightmare, "No Lego")

I have the Occupy Mars mug, and anyone thinking that this is an advertisement is missing the point.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 01/24/2017 09:25 pm
I have the Occupy Mars mug, and anyone thinking that this is an advertisement is missing the point.

Perhaps.. but if discovered sitting abandoned on a dusty shelf a few decades hence should dreams of humans on Mars go the way of Moon dreams back in the 80's, I doubt anyone would consider your mug to be anything more than an out-dated curio.

At least the ASDS is real (....to segue this thread back on topic)  8)
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 01/24/2017 10:40 pm
I have the Occupy Mars mug, and anyone thinking that this is an advertisement is missing the point.

Perhaps.. but if discovered sitting abandoned on a dusty shelf a few decades hence should dreams of humans on Mars go the way of Moon dreams back in the 80's, I doubt anyone would consider your mug to be anything more than an out-dated curio.

At least the ASDS is real (....to segue this thread back on topic)  8)
The cup did not come with a guarantee... 

A lot of this discussion has to do about whether the F9, the barge, landings...  Are they steps for finally a good chance of progress on expanding into space, or this all "just another rocket company, a-la Kistler or Orbital" (to pick two opposite examples).

Because if the latter, then yeah, why keep logos or mugs or mission patches or anything - might as well get a FedEx mouse pad and be done with.

If the former, then that's why we have a thread dedicated to a barge, one to the ships that sail with the barge, and another to elevator shafts and soil draining wicks...

...and an entire section of threads dedicated to the Mars aspects of SpaceX...

Time will tell if they'll be successful, but the disdain is just sad.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 01/25/2017 01:18 am
Distain is warranted for over the top fanaticism (topics and consumerism). 

For example, I like music from certain bands. I like to learn about the process of how the songs are written and recorded.  I don't care how the studio was built or the type of tour bus used.  Minutiae (like elevator shafts in the studio or tour tractor/trailers) is for inane fanboi discussion boards.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Perchlorate on 01/25/2017 01:29 am
I have a mild amount of disdain for dis stain that dis discussion is leaving on dis thread, "discussion" thread though it be.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: darkenfast on 01/25/2017 04:30 am
Jim, just because your interest in how something is done is limited to certain areas doesn't mean we are wrong to be interested in them.  We know you don't like so much interest in SpaceX.  We get it, really.  We've been getting it for about a decade now.  If you don't like forum members interest in SpaceX, why come into these sub-forums?  Like them or not, SpaceX generates excitement about launching cargo, people and eventually, colonists into space. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 01/25/2017 11:32 am
Hey, folks. I meant my original post as light joshing of a respected poster on these boards. It's not worth two pages of off-topic posts! Let's respect our differences -- not everyone is going to dig ASDS luggage tags -- and let it go.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 01/25/2017 01:17 pm
Jim, just because your interest in how something is done is limited to certain areas doesn't mean we are wrong to be interested in them.  We know you don't like so much interest in SpaceX.  We get it, really.  We've been getting it for about a decade now.  If you don't like forum members interest in SpaceX, why come into these sub-forums?  Like them or not, SpaceX generates excitement about launching cargo, people and eventually, colonists into space. 

I have great interest in Spacex.  I try to find information on the vehicles, GSE and facilities as much as I can, like I do for other vehicles (except SLS).  I just don't care about the minuteia that really has no bearing on "launching cargo, people and eventually, colonists into space"

Soil draining wicks or elevator shafts are not unique to Spacex (or even spaceflight in general) and so why is it part of the discussions?  Likewise where is the discussion for soil draining wicks or elevator shafts for Blue Origin's factory?  It seems that just because it is Spacex, people want inane details.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 01/25/2017 01:51 pm
And these are people that are generally interested in space, and are familiar with, to continue the example, OSC and Kistler, and certainly with ULA and with Shuttle.

So why is that?  Are they all just conspiring to be interested? Just because... because of what, IYO?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 01/25/2017 02:28 pm
Jim, just because your interest in how something is done is limited to certain areas doesn't mean we are wrong to be interested in them.  We know you don't like so much interest in SpaceX.  We get it, really.  We've been getting it for about a decade now.  If you don't like forum members interest in SpaceX, why come into these sub-forums?  Like them or not, SpaceX generates excitement about launching cargo, people and eventually, colonists into space. 

I have great interest in Spacex.  I try to find information on the vehicles, GSE and facilities as much as I can, like I do for other vehicles (except SLS).  I just don't care about the minuteia that really has no bearing on "launching cargo, people and eventually, colonists into space"

Soil draining wicks or elevator shafts are not unique to Spacex (or even spaceflight in general) and so why is it part of the discussions?  Likewise where is the discussion for soil draining wicks or elevator shafts for Blue Origin's factory?  It seems that just because it is Spacex, people want inane details.
To be fair, large launch complexes such as Boca Chica aren't built very often and certainly not during the internet era and close enough to publicly-accessible land for the process to be documented by outside observers. Frankly I'm fascinated by the prep work and eventual pad-building activities. Not so much about elevator shafts at STARGATE but whatever.

If/when someone else buys up private land for their own launch complex, I hope it gets watched as closed.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Semmel on 01/25/2017 03:14 pm
Jim has a point here. But I think the reason is different than he views it. Many people are very interested in SpaceX for its disruptive nature. The progress of SpaceX is fast in terms of rocket companies. But it's very slow in terms of people's daily media consumption and hunger for information. In the limbo between true progress and perceived snail crawl, people start occupying themselves with minute and inconsequential details. Nothing bad about it, and nothing worth criticising. As is the other way around. Overexcited people should accept Jims concentration on the important stuff. It might reduce the clatter in this forum.

Cheers, Semmel.

PS: can we move these last posts to some more appropriate place? I prefer them not to be deleted. ;-)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 01/25/2017 03:25 pm
Jim has a point here. But I think the reason is different than he views it. Many people are very interested in SpaceX for its disruptive nature. The progress of SpaceX is fast in terms of rocket companies. But it's very slow in terms of people's daily media consumption and hunger for information. In the limbo between true progress and perceived snail crawl, people start occupying themselves with minute and inconsequential details. Nothing bad about it, and nothing worth criticising. As is the other way around. Overexcited people should accept Jims concentration on the important stuff. It might reduce the clatter in this forum.

Cheers, Semmel.

PS: can we move these last posts to some more appropriate place? I prefer them not to be deleted. ;-)
Forgetting the elevator shaft for a minute, let's talk barge.

A small detail? Maybe.  Like the first aircraft carrier was a small detail in the world of aviation.

It doesn't fly.  It just enables a whole set of otherwise impossible missions, is a fascinating engineering topic all by itself, and carrier ops are doubly interesting.

So if an airplane buff finds carriers less interesting, he should simply stay away from the aircraft carrier threads...  What's the harm about people talking about carriers?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 01/25/2017 03:34 pm
So if an airplane buff finds carriers less interesting, he should simply stay away from the aircraft carrier threads...  What's the harm about people talking about carriers?
None. As long as you don't do it here. Off-topic.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dglow on 01/25/2017 06:01 pm
So if an airplane buff finds carriers less interesting, he should simply stay away from the aircraft carrier threads...  What's the harm about people talking about carriers?
None. As long as you don't do it here. Off-topic.

Completely on-topic by way of analogy. The 'carrier' is the subject of this thread.

Re: ASDS, will SpaceX need a third to service Boca Chica? Some have speculated JRTI OCISLY could sail into the Gulf when required, but I don't see how that works with the flight rate across three pads. What's the transit time between the space coast and southern tip of Texas?

EDIT: wrong ASDS
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kansan52 on 01/25/2017 06:11 pm
Memory says it take months to transfer JRtI through the canal. It's width is too great for the passage and was transited with the parts on the deck and attached when berthed on the west coast.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 01/25/2017 06:13 pm
Memory says it take months to transfer JRtI through the canal. It's width is too great for the passage and was transited with the parts on the deck and attached when berthed on the west coast.

Going around the tip of Florida and over to Texas doesn't require the Panama canal, so everything would presumably stay attached.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 01/25/2017 06:15 pm
1
Re: ASDS, will SpaceX need a third to service Boca Chica? Some have speculated JRTI could sail into the Gulf when required, but I don't see how that works with the flight rate across three pads. What's the transit time between the space coast and southern tip of Texas?

JRTI is in the Pacific, it would take at least 1 week to get it to the Gulf (IIRC it can transit the recently widened canal intact). OCISLY could probably get to Brownsville in 2 or 3 days.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 01/25/2017 06:23 pm
So if an airplane buff finds carriers less interesting, he should simply stay away from the aircraft carrier threads...  What's the harm about people talking about carriers?
None. As long as you don't do it here. Off-topic.

It's an analogy. On topic for the purpose of explaining why talking about soil wicking is on topic.

But off topic for here, in the sense that the meta discussion of what is on and off topic is getting out of hand. We mods DO appreciate self moderation when it doesn't dominate the whole thread... that would not be at present though. Many more posts on this than needful.

Further, let's not cast aspersions on each others motivations, call each other fan bois[1] , argue about who is more devoted to space exploration, and etc... because it's just no fun.

1 - please look up the difference between boi and boy, it's not a nice thing to call anyone unless you know them really well in a context that is not appropriate here at all.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 01/26/2017 11:14 am
I regard the whole area of space as an opportunity to learn stuff - I'm too old to take part. And that includes soil wicks etc.  The average person can learn a lot in related side discussions. I work for an education charity (well, the trading arm anyway) and I am very much in favour of a holistic approach to learning - children and adults learn a lot from these side excursions which others might find stupid or unnecessary.

Never 'dis' an opportunity to learn. You are getting less and less education from schools, you have to make it up somewhere.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: acsawdey on 01/26/2017 04:06 pm
1
Re: ASDS, will SpaceX need a third to service Boca Chica? Some have speculated JRTI could sail into the Gulf when required, but I don't see how that works with the flight rate across three pads. What's the transit time between the space coast and southern tip of Texas?

JRTI is in the Pacific, it would take at least 1 week to get it to the Gulf (IIRC it can transit the recently widened canal intact). OCISLY could probably get to Brownsville in 2 or 3 days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panamax (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panamax)

Seems like the ASDS is in a gray area. The "New Panamax" dimensions say maximum beam is 49 meters or ~161 feet. I thought the ASDS was about 170' wide. However the actual lock dimensions are 55 meters or 180'. So it might be a case of a special permit or some such. One would think if they used the onboard thrusters it could be maneuvered a whole lot more precisely than the average vessel that transits the locks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 01/28/2017 06:03 pm
Poor OCISLY - it has a huge hole:
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Coastal Ron on 01/28/2017 07:13 pm
Poor OCISLY - it has a huge hole:

Maybe I'm missing it, but all I see if material stacked on the deck.  Where do you see the hole?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 01/28/2017 07:41 pm
Poor OCISLY - it has a huge hole:
I _think_ what you're seeing as a hole is actually some kind of ribbed stringer laid out on the deck, though it fully does look like a hole! For me the tell is there would be all kinds of OSHA mandated barricades around such a hole, yet there's nothing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: topo334 on 01/28/2017 08:07 pm
I agree. I opened up the image (runs off a 21" monitor)! I see an I beam with tabs welded to the riser and the ears. Until I enlarged the pic. it sort of resembled a gash in the deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 01/28/2017 08:29 pm
Agreed that it looks like a hole but probably isn't.

But if it isn't - wth is it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cro-magnon gramps on 01/28/2017 10:53 pm
hope this helps, I have a 42 in monitor, and all I see is equipment on the deck...
Looks like some kind of wall waiting to be put up and some iron mongering :)
no holes or suspicious objects...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 01/28/2017 11:08 pm
The object on the deck is the blast wall that has been taken down to allow work on the shipping container that was behind it. I do not think there is a hole.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 01/29/2017 01:33 am
If you compare to the picture here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1630719#msg1630719

(reverse angle, two weeks ago) you'll see some of the elements on the deck - the wooden platforms, the smaller welded beams, etc.

There is a new staircase leading to the raised container, so it's probably not temporary, and this again begs the question - what is going to fit underneath?

The reverse angle picture also shows that the new mystery welded structure is not the missing blast wall, since A) that blast wall is missing in the older picture too, and B) you can see the cross section, and it's not similar to what we're seeing in the new picture.


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 01/29/2017 03:53 am
They may install a door in the blast wall to allow access to the newly free space under the raised container. Seems like a lot of work to create a small amount of deck level storage, but they did have a little Spider lift destroyed by a hard landing. Maybe they need a secure little garage?

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 01/29/2017 09:42 pm
Agreed that it looks like a hole but probably isn't.

But if it isn't - wth is it?

Those cut sections really do look like deck beams to me.  We don't have much to go on, but one possible explanation is in order to elevate that container, they decided they needed to strengthen the deck beneath and around the support 'legs' to distribute the load.  Given there are no access hatches into that area, they'd need to cut out and replace some of the substructure in the process.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 01/29/2017 09:44 pm
They may install a door in the blast wall to allow access to the newly free space under the raised container. Seems like a lot of work to create a small amount of deck level storage, but they did have a little Spider lift destroyed by a hard landing. Maybe they need a secure little garage?

Noting the position of the EWP parked under there (to test fit?), you could be right.  Under the container would make a very secure little 'garage' for protected storage of work platforms when not in use.  Perhaps, to speed things up dockside, they plan to so a lot more 'pre-processing' aboard the ASDS on the tow back to shore.

It will be interesting to see if they do the same thing to JRtI. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 01/29/2017 10:04 pm
Agreed that it looks like a hole but probably isn't.

But if it isn't - wth is it?

Those cut sections really do look like deck beams to me.  We don't have much to go on, but one possible explanation is in order to elevate that container, they decided they needed to strengthen the deck beneath and around the support 'legs' to distribute the load.  Given there are no access hatches into that area, they'd need to cut out and replace some of the substructure in the process.
That shot is one of the best perspective-conundrum pictures I've ever seen...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 01/29/2017 10:07 pm
Agreed that it looks like a hole but probably isn't.

But if it isn't - wth is it?

Those cut sections really do look like deck beams to me.  We don't have much to go on, but one possible explanation is in order to elevate that container, they decided they needed to strengthen the deck beneath and around the support 'legs' to distribute the load.  Given there are no access hatches into that area, they'd need to cut out and replace some of the substructure in the process.
That shot is one of the best perspective-conundrum pictures I've ever seen...

Agreed.  It's also a great demonstration of lack of context. (ie. photos a day or two either side would be a big help!)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 01/30/2017 12:22 pm
They may install a door in the blast wall to allow access to the newly free space under the raised container. Seems like a lot of work to create a small amount of deck level storage, but they did have a little Spider lift destroyed by a hard landing. Maybe they need a secure little garage?

If this is a little garage like you say, then this begs the question of what equipment it would store.
Why would it be there specifically ?

The only thing I can see is if it is to store vehicles. Otherwise, you could put things further behind the wall and wouldn't need direct access to the deck.

So here we are again : Robotic securing of the booster ?
I keep thinking this has to be in the picture at some point ! It is very easy to imagine situations where crew access would be too risky ! (and we have seen examples of that too)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 01/30/2017 12:27 pm
We will know more when SpaceX installs the blastwall back. If this is a garage, it needs a garage opener ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 01/30/2017 12:58 pm
Perhaps then we'll see a door installed on the booster that opens upon landing and a robotic arm articulates out holding a garage door opener. Of course then it comes back to landing accuracy and the ability to orient the booster so that the door is pointing the right way...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/01/2017 04:35 am
http://www.dailybreeze.com/business/20170131/spacex-wants-to-double-its-footprint-at-the-port-of-los-angeles

Quote
Hawthorne-based SpaceX, which is working through a backlog of rocket launches, wants to double the space it leases at the Port of Los Angeles to park and handle recovered space equipment.

The Board of Harbor Commissioners will vote at its Thursday morning meeting on a deal to enlarge Space Exploration Technologies Corp.’s footprint at San Pedro’s outer harbor. The company hopes to lease 4.6 acres of land and water area along Berths 51 to 53 for $23,735 a month, plus insurance and any incidental costs.

In addition to extra space, the lease agreement allows the company to have berthing rights, install a chain-link fence around the property, build a concrete rocket-support pedestal, and add an office trailer, guard shack and portable restrooms, according to a staff report prepared for the commission.

...

If the Harbor Commission approves the company’s lease expansion, it will provide enough space and access to comfortably park and offload the massive equipment on a regular basis. SpaceX plans at least six launches from Vandenberg Air Force Base through 2018 that will require at-sea landings, which means San Pedro will be getting an eyeful of the company’s rockets.

...

The port parking spot actually is on the campus of AltaSea marine research facility.

...

“Along with Boeing, Catalina Sea Ranch and the Exploration Vehicle Nautilus, AltaSea and the Port of LA are the home of space exploration and underwater exploration,” Buscaino said in a written statement. “My hope is that Elon Musk continues to see AltaSea and the Port of Los Angeles as an asset to his operations and continues to grow his company’s presence in San Pedro.”
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/02/2017 03:03 pm
Continuation on my previous speculation :
If the current modifications are intended to robotically secure the booster, does the replacement of the center plates of the deck have anything to do with this ?

Could the old deck have been replaced with materials that are more easily weldable ?
Then the robots would grab the legs and weld themselves on the deck in order to secure the booster before the processing crew boards the ship.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: clegg78 on 02/02/2017 03:17 pm
Roombas with Welders?  I dig it!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 02/02/2017 04:17 pm
I am not convinced they did anything to the center plates.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/02/2017 09:21 pm
Continuation on my previous speculation :
If the current modifications are intended to robotically secure the booster, does the replacement of the center plates of the deck have anything to do with this ?

Could the old deck have been replaced with materials that are more easily weldable ?
Then the robots would grab the legs and weld themselves on the deck in order to secure the booster before the processing crew boards the ship.

{Channelling my inner Jim} They're not going to "robotically secure" anything.  There is no need to do so.

If the center plates were indeed beefed up, it would only be address concerns with deck overheating (plates buckling) because their landings are so darned accurate.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/02/2017 09:42 pm
Continuation on my previous speculation :
If the current modifications are intended to robotically secure the booster, does the replacement of the center plates of the deck have anything to do with this ?

Could the old deck have been replaced with materials that are more easily weldable ?
Then the robots would grab the legs and weld themselves on the deck in order to secure the booster before the processing crew boards the ship.

{Channelling my inner Jim} They're not going to "robotically secure" anything.  There is no need to do so.

If the center plates were indeed beefed up, it would only be address concerns with deck overheating (plates buckling) because their landings are so darned accurate.

Heh then you need to come up with an alternative theory for the under-container space....  It's only polite...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/02/2017 10:39 pm
Continuation on my previous speculation :
If the current modifications are intended to robotically secure the booster, does the replacement of the center plates of the deck have anything to do with this ?

Could the old deck have been replaced with materials that are more easily weldable ?
Then the robots would grab the legs and weld themselves on the deck in order to secure the booster before the processing crew boards the ship.

{Channelling my inner Jim} They're not going to "robotically secure" anything.  There is no need to do so.

If the center plates were indeed beefed up, it would only be address concerns with deck overheating (plates buckling) because their landings are so darned accurate.

Not trying hard enough ! You used more than two words ::) (Sorry, Jim, but it's a bit true ;) ).

They nearly lost a booster once, and I take that as proof that there actually is a need to do so ! The concern not being that the landing wouldn't be accurate enough, but rather that the weather would be too bad to be able to safely boarding the ship and much less work on it.

It would also be less manpower needed if the hold downs can be rigid enough to completely replace the jacks that are currently used. It can mean that they wouldn't even need to board the ship at all before shore. Even potentially in the future it may mean no crew at sea (but that's a bit far feched I admit) ?

Obviously, mine is only a theory (robotic hold-downs, not the center plates) until hard facts back it, but there starts to be a lot of indications, both public and L2 (shameless L2 promotion ;) ) that make me truely believe that this theory might actually be happening right now.

Plus, it would be completely in the spirit of how SpaceX do stuff ! :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/02/2017 11:51 pm
Heh then you need to come up with an alternative theory for the under-container space....  It's only polite...

I did... only one page back:  :)
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1636709#msg1636709

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/02/2017 11:59 pm
{Channelling my inner Jim} They're not going to "robotically secure" anything.  There is no need to do so.

If the center plates were indeed beefed up, it would only be address concerns with deck overheating (plates buckling) because their landings are so darned accurate.

Not trying hard enough ! You used more than two words ::) (Sorry, Jim, but it's a bit true ;) ).

You're quite right.. but, unlike Jim, I'm finding that being content to provide no explanation at all no matter how correct my answer might be is kinda hard to do.   ;)

They nearly lost a booster once, and I take that as proof that there actually is a need to do so ! The concern not being that the landing wouldn't be accurate enough, but rather that the weather would be too bad to be able to safely boarding the ship and much less work on it.

I've been following this (and the previous and previous) thread since the beginning and that's news to me!  Which booster are you referring to??

EDIT: They've only just landed a booster from the middle of the Pacific Ocean in the biggest waves we've seen yet and the booster didn't seem to me to be going anywhere but back home ..so I take that as proof there actually isn't a need to do anything just yet.  :)
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/03/2017 02:10 am
I assume he's referring to Thaicom-8, where one leg partially or completely crushed it's core and the rocket was leaning.  It was decided that it was unsafe for crews to secure the stage at sea, so it walked around on the deck for something like 5 days, somehow staying on the ASDS because of those short beam rails(or whatever they're called) around the perimeter.

Edit - If this is indeed a little garage for automated securing equipment, I hope they release sped up footage of the ASDS deck cams during that return voyage(now that they have eliminated that possibility).  That would be great to watch.  My personal wishful-thinking hope on both the deck plates and the raised container is something to do with refuel and hop back to land.  Maybe tanks below, the extra room is for GSE, the deck plates for takeoff impengement and/or holes/ports/etc or something for an at-sea service mast type hookup.  I know, not likely.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 02/03/2017 02:32 am
I assume he's referring to Thaicom-8, where one leg partially or completely crushed it's core and the rocket was leaning.  It was decided that it was unsafe for crews to secure the stage at sea, so it walked around on the deck for something like 5 days, somehow staying on the ASDS because of those short beam rails(or whatever they're called) around the perimeter.
Correct - and the booster had scudded across the deck and the only reason it didn't go over the side was because it was stopped by the yellow "toe kick" welded around the perimeter of the deck.

Now, this is being admitted by the guy (and I am a boater, crew, and someone knowledgeable in things nautical) who thought this kind of movement was unlikely due to the ballasting and dynamic positioning that the ASDS is equipped with. However,  I was proven wrong by that landing and subsequent sliding of a stage, a rocket that apparently I'm unable to come to grips with regarding its sheer size and stature.

So... now I'm open to even the most bizarre theories (kinda), though I must officially refute the electromagnetic or rotating magnetic robot shoe idea...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 02/03/2017 02:56 am
I know, not likely.

Less than not likely, more like nil of a chance.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/03/2017 03:46 am
I know, not likely.

Less than not likely, more like nil of a chance.

What Jim said.. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/03/2017 04:46 am
I assume he's referring to Thaicom-8, where one leg partially or completely crushed it's core and the rocket was leaning.  It was decided that it was unsafe for crews to secure the stage at sea, so it walked around on the deck for something like 5 days, somehow staying on the ASDS because of those short beam rails(or whatever they're called) around the perimeter.
Correct - and the booster had scudded across the deck and the only reason it didn't go over the side was because it was stopped by the yellow "toe kick" welded around the perimeter of the deck.

Now, this is being admitted by the guy (and I am a boater, crew, and someone knowledgeable in things nautical) who thought this kind of movement was unlikely due to the ballasting and dynamic positioning that the ASDS is equipped with. However,  I was proven wrong by that landing and subsequent sliding of a stage, a rocket that apparently I'm unable to come to grips with regarding its sheer size and stature.

Lessee.. so a booster lands hard and a leg partially collapses shifting the booster's CG enough that on a roll (or heave or whatever) it slides all over the deck.  SpX then (a) fix the leg issue and (b) ensure sufficient grip on the feet and, hey presto, subsequent landings show no signs of this issue re-occurring - even in Pacific Ocean rollers?!?

EDIT:  I confess I was one of those here who doubted they could get the CG low enough to stop the booster toppling overboard every time, but it seems they ran the calcs and succeeded.  Physics is physics.  Don't be too quick to doubt yourself. ;)
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/03/2017 08:52 am
I was indeed reffering to Thaicom-8.

I thinkthe key here is not "saving the booster", but rather "automation and reduced useless risks".

Now, on the "saving the booster" side :
The fact that they have included crush cores in the legs tells us that this is not an incident that was entirely due to a completely unique cause that was not foreseen and that they took actions to make sure that this could not ever happen again, but that this is rather something that they very early on have thought about.
I think they probably can't be certain that there will never be conditions (winds, waves, ...) where they have to land leaning, and thus use asymetrically the crush cores upon landing.
Sure they could say "the weather is too bad, splashdown !". But I expect them to try to push their luck and see how far they can go. This may very well include accepting that a stage can be saved at the cost of expanding the crush cores (that probably are expanded everytime anyway. It's a heavy bird !).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: biosehnsucht on 02/03/2017 07:56 pm
On the idea of "Roombas with welders": Why not little robots with big battery packs that are basically weld-down "shoes" with wheels, they drive themselves over the feet, raise their wheels (so they're sitting on the deck for welding), then dump the rest of their stored battery power into welding themselves to the deck? Rather than robot welders, the robots self-weld to the deck. Would still require some effort to remove them, but they could be "modular" such that all the non-shoe parts can be unbolted after they're in port and attached to a fresh shoe, while regular cutting techniques are used to get the welded shoes off...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/03/2017 08:26 pm
On the idea of "Roombas with welders": Why not little robots with big battery packs that are basically weld-down "shoes" with wheels, they drive themselves over the feet, raise their wheels (so they're sitting on the deck for welding), then dump the rest of their stored battery power into welding themselves to the deck? Rather than robot welders, the robots self-weld to the deck. Would still require some effort to remove them, but they could be "modular" such that all the non-shoe parts can be unbolted after they're in port and attached to a fresh shoe, while regular cutting techniques are used to get the welded shoes off...

That's exactly what I had in mind, with the welding being this, and each gun firing only once

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWymKHVABKo

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/03/2017 11:17 pm
I know, not likely.

Less than not likely, more like nil of a chance.

Don't tell me, I already expressed my doubts.  Musk is the one you should be informing, he's the one who has expressed intent to do so, with this ASDS design, with consistency multiple times over multiple years, even again fairly recently.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/04/2017 01:27 am
I know, not likely.

Less than not likely, more like nil of a chance.

Don't tell me, I already expressed my doubts.  Musk is the one you should be informing, he's the one who has expressed intent to do so, with this ASDS design, with consistency multiple times over multiple years, even again fairly recently.

Yeah, but it'll take more than some room under a container to pull that off.

The launch back is more than a gentle GH hop.

When you see a barge design that looks like a twin-hull, then we'll know it's getting close...  :)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/04/2017 02:40 am
I suggest you review the source material.  He has explicitly said that this design will allow for refuel and hop back, and that these barges will be modified in the future to do so.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/04/2017 03:39 am
I suggest you review the source material.  He has explicitly said that this design will allow for refuel and hop back, and that these barges will be modified in the future to do so.

Do you have the source?  I remember the statement, something along the lines of "in the future, ... will allow fly back", but I think it left a lot of room for "how much improvement is still needed".

In a positive sense, the things he knows he's going to do two-three-ten years from now, they're in his head, and sometimes it's hard to be sure how many steps are between "now" and "then".

I think regularly flying rockets will happen, but will require quite a bit more hardware.

The barge will need a launch mount, since I don't think the legs will support the launch of a fueled rocket plus fold-up mechanism.  Too heavy, too hot.

The launch mount will need something like a flame duct. (hence the reference to a twin body barge, but that's not the only way to do it)

You'll need a way to get the rocket to the launch mount, fold the legs, refuel, etc -

We're not quite there yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: deruch on 02/04/2017 03:42 am
I suggest you review the source material.  He has explicitly said that this design will allow for refuel and hop back, and that these barges will be modified in the future to do so.
Musk had also explicitly said that the F9 design would allow for full reuse including U/S.  And that they would eventually be modified to do so.  Now this is no longer in the cards even if it might be theoretically possible to achieve with enough work.  In the same vein, maybe it is theoretically possible to envision some future system of highly altered ASDS that could allow for refuel and hop-back.  And there may even be current, low-level planning to explore these modifications in the future.  But don't be surprised if, in the end, it is dropped for the same reason that U/S reuse of the F9 was dropped  They don't have an inexhaustible supply of engineering and design talent nor bottomless money pockets to fund R&D as well as their other plans.  So, they'll decide that those resources are better spent on other projects.  Or maybe it'll just be overtaken by events--like if the Falcon family of launchers were retired before they got to that point.  etc. 

None of which is to say that Jim's position--that it'll never happen it's not happening--is incompatible with the statements from Elon; there's only apparent contradiction, not actual conflict.  [I think] Jim is talking about what he expects the end result will be based on what he sees as the challenges presented by hop-back from ASDSs and SpaceX's other plans.  And Elon is perfectly happy to plan with very low level ideas (what's possible based on 1st principles analysis and sparse matrix engineering) and then talk about those future plans (because they are usually really cool) as if they are definite, only to postpone them again and again or pivot away from them totally when conditions/priorities have changed. 

I guess my position is that you shouldn't trust any Elon promise respecting SpaceX's medium- to long-term future plans, except insofar as you can trust them to actually do whatever they think will get them furthest forward on their path to Mars at that time.  But none of the way-points are actually set in stone, even if Elon has continuously talked about them as essential.  If tomorrow Elon/SpaceX determined that down-range landings on the ASDS weren't beneficial enough and that they would be better off to just use RTLS where possible and expend the rest where not, then I wouldn't be at all surprised if on Monday they got rid of all the ASDSs.  !Poof!  IMO, that has been one of the great strengths of SpaceX.  They're not so wedded to any plan/project that they follow it all the way into a dead-end. 

Sorry for slight digression and back to the original point.  There's pretty much ZERO chance of the changes most recently discussed being for hop-back because, if it was, they would have been talked about in at least a half dozen places and lots of "in-the-know"-type people would have at least heard rumors about it or something with the ASDS.  I include Jim as one of the people who likely would have heard something.  [And if he had, I doubt he would have commented as he did]

edit:altered wording and added [clarifiers] to try to avoid speaking on behalf of others.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/04/2017 03:54 am
I suggest you review the source material.  He has explicitly said that this design will allow for refuel and hop back, and that these barges will be modified in the future to do so.

Do you have the source?  I remember the statement, something along the lines of "in the future, ... will allow fly back", but I think it left a lot of room for "how much improvement is still needed".

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=elon+musk+asds+fly+back+refuel

Quote
Musk had also explicitly said that...

Non sequitur, although there's a reason I mentioned that he has been consistently saying this.  And I'm sorry, but I'm not going to theorycraft additional meaning to anything Jim says.  If he wanted to say that he would have heard about it and he hasn't, then I'd be happy to take him at his word.

I don't see why you think you need to argue with me about this.  He said he plans to do it, and some of you think it's outlandish or impossible or whatever.  Apparently some of you didn't even know that he said he plans to do it.  End of discussion, I don't even disagree that it's probably not what's going on right now.  What I don't understand is people jumping to declare what I hope is happening is outlandish to even hope for when it's the only outstanding publicly mentioned upgrade left at present, and people disputing easily available information after being told it exists twice in a row.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/04/2017 04:57 am
Let me put this out there, even though it is not my prediction.

IF, if, somehow F9 gets to "do an BFR" - trade off the legs for side thrusters and a bunch of fuel - and actively homes in on the barge - then the barge can get a landing/launch pad, and there's your futuristic flyback system.

It's absolutely not what I think will happen, but SpaceX is doing a lot of things I didn't see coming, so I don't even try to say "never" anymore.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/04/2017 05:07 am
Paging doctor Goldberg...

The legs can't just retract after takeoff and before aero loads get unmanageable?  Grasshopper got plenty high with rigid legs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: deruch on 02/04/2017 05:21 am
1. Fair point about not speaking for others. 
My personal wishful-thinking hope on both the deck plates and the raised container is something to do with refuel and hop back to land.  Maybe tanks below, the extra room is for GSE, the deck plates for takeoff impengement and/or holes/ports/etc or something for an at-sea service mast type hookup.  I know, not likely.
2. Not to harp, but this whole jag was spawned not by a comment about potential future developments to the ASDS but about specific changes that have been recently/contemporaneously observed.  Though I do admit that I either missed, forgot, or ignored your inclusion of "wishful-thinking" in that sentence. 

In my previous comment, I attempted to point out why I think it is a mistake to insist that Elon's comments about future plans are strong evidence for why your "wishful hopes" are reasonable (if doubtful) when, logically, I don't believe they are, Elon's statements notwithstanding.  See the comment below for some logical reasons with which I concur:
Yeah, but it'll take more than some room under a container to pull that off.  The launch back is more than a gentle GH hop.  When you see a barge design that looks like a twin-hull, then we'll know it's getting close...
It certainly wasn't a non-sequitur to point out that Elon has very consistently made public pronouncements about SpaceX's expected path/plans and then later abandoned them many, many times.  Note, I do not include stated goals only paths.  Most specifically, you shouldn't rely on his statements that this design of the ASDS is ready to support refuel and hop-back with only modifications and not major changes (redesign).  Though maybe this is really just a semantic argument about where we each variously draw the lines between redesign, moderate changes, and modifications.  If you think so, feel free to drop it and ignore my attempt to split hairs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/04/2017 05:40 am
2. Not to harp, but this whole jag was spawned not by a comment about potential future developments to the ASDS but about specific changes that have been recently/contemporaneously observed.  Though I do admit that I either missed, forgot, or ignored your inclusion of "wishful-thinking" in that sentence.

But is it really that out of place in time?  Supposedly the "final" major revision to F9, specifically to address reuse, is either finished with design or nearly so, since the plan is to have them flying by the end of the year.  If they have not abandoned the idea of flyback, which I have seen no reason to believe they have, would now not be a reasonable time to begin making those changes?


Quote
It certainly wasn't a non-sequitur
Well you immediately brought up single-stick S2 reuse.  In that case, he came out pretty early and explained what was already obvious to anybody who was doing sims on the rocket regarding second-stage reuse - even with a heroic dry PMF on the S2 with reuse kit, there just wasn't going to be any demand for such small payloads.

In the case of flyback, they have consistently been seriously talking about it as in their plans from 2014(or earlier) until, IIRC, within the last 6 months.  I remember a recent mention at a conference or something that I watched as video.  It's also not immediately obvious that there has to be any kind of flame trench, and in fact, also IIRC, we've gone over that here and the general conclusion was that it could probably take off from it's legs with no problem from a materials perspective, given the GH operations.

So the two don't seem very similar to me as examples.

Edit to add - It doesn't need to worry about optimizing for gravity losses and whatnot because the mission won't even require anything near full tanks to begin with.  Plenty of margin for any kind of staged takeoff profile that's necessary to safely get it off the deck at low throttle and retract the legs before throttling up.  It would be able to ascend, descend, and hover.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 02/04/2017 12:16 pm
Paging doctor Goldberg...

The legs can't just retract after takeoff and before aero loads get unmanageable?  Grasshopper got plenty high with rigid legs.

No. The legs lock in the extended position and have no mechanism to retract, nor does the stage carry an inexhaustible supply of helium to extend them a second time. So keep on dreaming about flyback hops but until you see authorization to do so in FAA and FCC paperwork, you'll be dreaming in fantasyland.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/04/2017 12:48 pm
Paging doctor Goldberg...

The legs can't just retract after takeoff and before aero loads get unmanageable?  Grasshopper got plenty high with rigid legs.

No. The legs lock in the extended position and have no mechanism to retract, nor does the stage carry an inexhaustible supply of helium to extend them a second time. So keep on dreaming about flyback hops but until you see authorization to do so in FAA and FCC paperwork, you'll be dreaming in fantasyland.

This is common knowledge.  Are you suggesting that making them retract is more complicated and less likely than putting a landing/launching cradle on the ASDS and adding lateral thrusters to the F9 as he was suggesting?  Are you suggesting that if you can refuel RP1 and LOX it would be impossible to reload helium and whatever other expendables the vehicle needs such as fluid for the grid fins and maybe tea/teb?  The fuel/prop is one thing, but those others, that's just a bridge too far?  And again, still wondering why I'm here defending what Musk and SpaceX have repeatedly claimed will happen in no uncertain terms.  Fantasy dreamland indeed.  How disrespectful to them.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 02/04/2017 01:23 pm
The current legs also are very unlikely able to hold the static weight of the rocket once fueled enough to fly back, or take the thermal load of 2 or 3 engines firing on the deck during liftoff. Plus there is no way to do a hold-down, which would be desirable. So it needs a launch stand, either portable to be moved under the rocked after landing, or fixed over the water with a transfer system to move the rocket to it. This can be done with the current hull design though, a double hull is unnecessary.

Flying the Falcon 9 forwards with the interstage open in the lower atmosphere at supersonic speeds is, IMO, entirely infeasible. So it needs a nose cone, and some way to install it while on the barge, likely a crane since the cherry picker isn't tall enough.

The barge also needs tanks for LOX, RP-1, nitrogen, and helium, and transfer systems to move at least some of those from a support ship to the tanks and from the tanks to the rocket.

So we will see a lot of changes if they decide to actually implement flyback.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/04/2017 01:28 pm
All of the above is known and has been discussed at length on this forum, along with the fact that block 5 has new legs and other reuse improvements.  There have been suggestions made about interstage designs that do not need to be capped, although that problem doesn't seem intractable even if they do.

On the topic of needing hold downs, desirable is the right term.  Remember that the mission is already completed at this point.  Although it wouldn't surprise me if we end up seeing something along the lines of the GH launch structure roll out in 4 segments to both fold up the legs and provide hold-downs(also as previously discussed.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 02/04/2017 01:41 pm
Paging doctor Goldberg...

The legs can't just retract after takeoff and before aero loads get unmanageable?  Grasshopper got plenty high with rigid legs.

No. The legs lock in the extended position and have no mechanism to retract, nor does the stage carry an inexhaustible supply of helium to extend them a second time. So keep on dreaming about flyback hops but until you see authorization to do so in FAA and FCC paperwork, you'll be dreaming in fantasyland.

This is common knowledge.  Are you suggesting that making them retract is more complicated and less likely than putting a landing/launching cradle on the ASDS and adding lateral thrusters to the F9 as he was suggesting?  Are you suggesting that if you can refuel RP1 and LOX it would be impossible to reload helium and whatever other expendables the vehicle needs such as fluid for the grid fins and maybe tea/teb?  The fuel/prop is one thing, but those others, that's just a bridge too far?  And again, still wondering why I'm here defending what Musk and SpaceX have repeatedly claimed will happen in no uncertain terms.  Fantasy dreamland indeed.  How disrespectful to them.

Of course it is common knowledge. So why do you persist in discussing this concept in the absence of any fact whatsoever to support the idea that it is happening any time in the foreseeable future?

And as for your questions: False dichotomy. The entire first stage of the F9 would have to be substantially redesigned to support retractable legs and/or landing onto a launch mount with thrusters. It would de facto cease being a "Falcon 9" as we know it, or least not a F9 1.1FT/F9 1.2 (which is what the FAA launch licenses call it now).

And yes, until we've seen any evidence whatsoever of the ability to refuel and provide fluids service in situ on a rolling/pitching barge at sea, yes, it's still a fantasy dreamland.

But hey, keep dreaming. Someday these things might happen. But this thread probably isn't the place to do so. In the absence of evidence as to what that small protected space under an elevated container might be used for (and there has already been more plausible speculation up-thread), you're just dreaming if you think SpaceX could fit robotic servicing equipment to support fly-back. Take a look at cryogenic and high-pressure fluid systems design sometime. When you see evidence of any of that being installed on one of the barges, THEN you'll have a basis to keep talking about it. In the meantime you're just arguing to argue.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/04/2017 01:47 pm
And in the meantime SpaceX obviously just spouts fantasyland dreams off without looking into any of this.  Got it.  And arguing now = replying to people arguing with me after making a statement that couldn't have been interpreted as contradicting anything anybody was saying.

BTW, to your second paragraph, are you aware of F9 block 5 and what it is?  This is already taking place.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 02/04/2017 01:58 pm
And in the meantime SpaceX obviously just spouts fantasyland dreams off without looking into any of this.  Got it.  And arguing now = replying to people arguing with me after making a statement that couldn't have been interpreted as contradicting anything anybody was saying.

I have no doubt SpaceX "looks into" many things - including many things that don't happen in practical reality. That's the nature of their jobs. You can speculate all you want in the threads about that. In the meantime, running off into frenzied imaginings based on one elevated cargo container on the deck of the barge - in the absence of any physical evidence to support said imaginings - is more than a bit tiresome to people who actually understand engineering and physics.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: douglas100 on 02/04/2017 01:59 pm
The only reason to do fly back is to save time. Of course it could be done, with a substantial redesign and engineering effort. But the real question is whether it is needed.

And that depends on flight rate. Is it worthwhile doing at the current projected flight rate? I don't think so. Of course that could change in the future...

Edit: took out the nose cone reference, since it was already posted.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/04/2017 02:02 pm
And in the meantime SpaceX obviously just spouts fantasyland dreams off without looking into any of this.  Got it.  And arguing now = replying to people arguing with me after making a statement that couldn't have been interpreted as contradicting anything anybody was saying.

I have no doubt SpaceX "looks into" many things - including many things that don't happen in practical reality. That's the nature of their jobs. You can speculate all you want in the threads about that. In the meantime, running off into frenzied imaginings based on one elevated cargo container on the deck of the barge - in the absence of any physical evidence to support said imaginings - is more than a bit tiresome to people who actually understand engineering and physics.

I'm sorry but right on it's face I'm going to take what you call their "imaginings" over what you call your "understanding of engineering and physics."  Do you realize how absurd you sound?

Nobody knows what they are doing with block 5 or the ASDS, but you definitely know what they aren't doing, and that is the only remaining thing they have said they would do to the ASDS which they haven't yet.  Is that correct?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 02/04/2017 02:22 pm
And in the meantime SpaceX obviously just spouts fantasyland dreams off without looking into any of this.  Got it.  And arguing now = replying to people arguing with me after making a statement that couldn't have been interpreted as contradicting anything anybody was saying.

I have no doubt SpaceX "looks into" many things - including many things that don't happen in practical reality. That's the nature of their jobs. You can speculate all you want in the threads about that. In the meantime, running off into frenzied imaginings based on one elevated cargo container on the deck of the barge - in the absence of any physical evidence to support said imaginings - is more than a bit tiresome to people who actually understand engineering and physics.

I'm sorry but right on it's face I'm going to take what you call their "imaginings" over what you call your "understanding of engineering and physics."  Do you realize how absurd you sound?

Nobody knows what they are doing with block 5 or the ASDS, but you definitely know what they aren't doing, and that is the only remaining thing they have said they would do to the ASDS which they haven't yet.  Is that correct?

Clearly your grasp of the written word is on par with your understanding of engineering and physics. Do you realize how absurd you sound? The fact that you and you alone are willing to argue about exceedingly unlikely near-term major design changes - of which there is no evidence - should give you pause and give you a clue.

But do carry on if it makes you happy. Or until a moderator tells you to stop arguing just to see your own words in print. Many people - the BEST people! - have subscribed to this thread and are no doubt annoyed by the barrage of notifications that have next to nothing to do with the ASDS as they exist today and as they will exist in the near term of the next 3 - 6 months. I will suggest again that if you want to blue-sky a bunch of concepts for autonomous booster servicing and fly-back, you do so in a dedicated thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 02/04/2017 02:29 pm

Nobody knows what they are doing with block 5 or the ASDS, but you definitely know what they aren't doing, and that is the only remaining thing they have said they would do to the ASDS which they haven't yet.  Is that correct?

It is not flyback
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/04/2017 02:32 pm
Clearly your grasp of the written word is on par with your understanding of engineering and physics. Do you realize how absurd you sound? The fact that you and you alone are willing to argue about exceedingly unlikely near-term major design changes - of which there is no evidence - should give you pause and give you a clue.

But do carry on if it makes you happy. Or until a moderator tells you to stop arguing just to see your own words in print. Many people - the BEST people! - have subscribed to this thread and are no doubt annoyed by the barrage of notifications that have next to nothing to do with the ASDS as they exist today and as they will exist in the near term of the next 3 - 6 months. I will suggest again that if you want to blue-sky a bunch of concepts for autonomous booster servicing and fly-back, you do so in a dedicated thread.

There is no evidence of any specific change, what are you on about?  How is this idea any different than any of the others put forward aside from the fact that they have actually said they plan to do it?

What we do know is that they are doing work which indicates no evidence of anything in particular yet on the ASDS, and that they are doing a major revision to F9 which includes new legs, generic "reusability improvements", and increased thrust.

You act as if there's some prevailing obvious outcome here with evidence to support it.  Did I miss something?

Edit - Saw Jim's latest reply, whiffs of inside knowledge this time around, I'll take that.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/04/2017 03:13 pm
Req - quite a few of the people you're arguing with believe flyback is both possible physical, and will be interesting from an ops standpoint - and have discussed this point even before Musk's tweet.

But even these people don't think that the current barge mods are indicative of flyback, which was the statement that triggered this.

We don't know what b5 will bring, that's true.  But there has been zero indication, including from you, that it includes flyback - so that's speculation without basis.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/04/2017 03:15 pm
Which can be said about any speculation that has been put forward at this point.  If block 5 will include flyback, now would be a good time to start.  There is limited known extended downtime windows between now and the end of the year and much work to do, as many have pointed out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 02/04/2017 03:15 pm
Nobody knows what they are doing with block 5 or the ASDS, but you definitely know what they aren't doing, and that is the only remaining thing they have said they would do to the ASDS which they haven't yet.  Is that correct?

The acquisition of land and the construction of a refurbishing facility at Port Canaveral suggests that SpaceX intend to be returning cores by barge for some time yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/04/2017 03:33 pm
Which can be said about any speculation that has been put forward at this point.  If block 5 will include flyback, now would be a good time to start.  There is limited known extended downtime windows between now and the end of the year and much work to do, as many have pointed out.
First, this was about the barge, not about b5.

Second, no - most speculations have a basis in reality.

You can also speculate that b5 would have 12 engines.  But there has been no indication of that.

For flyback to occur, the changes to the barge will be more extensive than a raised container.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/04/2017 03:35 pm

The acquisition of land and the construction of a refurbishing facility at Port Canaveral suggests that SpaceX intend to be returning cores by barge for some time yet.

I agree that they will return cores by barge even if F9 is doing flybacks for any number of reasons I can imagine from bad downrange conditions to off-nominal landings to lack of schedule pressure.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/04/2017 03:38 pm
Which can be said about any speculation that has been put forward at this point.  If block 5 will include flyback, now would be a good time to start working on the barge.  There is limited known extended downtime windows between now and the end of the year and much work to do, as many have pointed out.
First, this was about the barge, not about b5.

Second, no - most speculations have a basis in reality.

You can also speculate that b5 would have 12 engines.  But there has been no indication of that.

For flyback to occur, the changes to the barge will be more extensive than a raised container.

Added bold above.  How would known downtime windows be relevant to work on b5?

To clarify:  They have said that b5 will be the last major revision of F9, and they have said that they intend for F9 to perform flyback from this design of ASDS.  They haven't walked either back yet, and if both are true, then it may be smart to begin work on this large task of preparing the barge now due to the limited known extended downtime windows, which it was in at the time due to the planned expended stage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/04/2017 04:25 pm
Which can be said about any speculation that has been put forward at this point.  If block 5 will include flyback, now would be a good time to start working on the barge.  There is limited known extended downtime windows between now and the end of the year and much work to do, as many have pointed out.
First, this was about the barge, not about b5.

Second, no - most speculations have a basis in reality.

You can also speculate that b5 would have 12 engines.  But there has been no indication of that.

For flyback to occur, the changes to the barge will be more extensive than a raised container.

Added bold above.  How would known downtime windows be relevant to work on b5?

To clarify:  They have said that b5 will be the last major revision of F9, and they have said that they intend for F9 to perform flyback from this design of ASDS.  They haven't walked either back yet, and if both are true, then it may be smart to begin work on this large task of preparing the barge now due to the limited known extended downtime windows, which it was in at the time due to the planned expended stage.
But we know the extent of work on the barge was minimal.

We also know that flight rate in the next 2 years doesn't justify flyback.

So something's gotta give.

Either b5 is not really final, but just the final revision of this incarnation

Or plans have changed

I mean, the scope and schedule for Its are so much more aggressive than I'd imagined, that I find it hard to keep thinking about far-field F9 evolution.

Except maybe in terms of prepping for ITS.

But anyway - Container went up, something new, deck related, is the logical conclusion, I'm still going with securing the stage, using 4 Roomba self-propelled self-welding feet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/04/2017 04:34 pm
I agree that's the most likely possibility that has been put forward or that I can think of, in fact I think if that's the case we'd see it first even if they later added the mobile flyback equipment to the garage.  I wonder about the center deck plates though.

Edit - Also we have different definitions of minimal!  :o  Aside from that, my point is that they may want to start now exactly because they may have to do it in bite-sized chunks during these known extended downtime windows, and preferably get as much done as possible before LC-40 comes back online I'd think.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 02/04/2017 05:01 pm
Ok let's calm this one down, as it's fast turning into a Jim-style Q&A with Req.

Potential for a splinter thread perhaps?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/05/2017 12:14 pm
Ok let's calm this one down, as it's fast turning into a Jim-style Q&A with Req.

Jim-style Q&A ? I wanna see that !  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 02/07/2017 05:47 pm
How is our loved ship (we surly still love her) is doing? Any recent pictures?  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/08/2017 01:17 pm
How is our loved ship (we surly still love her) is doing? Any recent pictures?  :)
My love for this little ASDS is not "surly"[1], it is welcoming and friendly ... 

Just like this thread ought to be. I was behind and got caught up. If we get that level of back and forth snark again, I'll delete all the posts even if it means throwing out useful info.

1 - yes, it's a typo for "surely" but I LOVE typos, they're funny.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 02/09/2017 12:19 pm
But anyway - Container went up, something new, deck related, is the logical conclusion, I'm still going with securing the stage, using 4 Roomba self-propelled self-welding feet.

Will these self-propelled feet drive around the ASDS deck at random until they each find a rocket leg?

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 02/09/2017 02:56 pm
But anyway - Container went up, something new, deck related, is the logical conclusion, I'm still going with securing the stage, using 4 Roomba self-propelled self-welding feet.

Will these self-propelled feet drive around the ASDS deck at random until they each find a rocket leg?

Matthew

I don't quite see the relevance...

Although there was an early suggestion that the core would have its feet welded to the deck, that's not what happens.

The core has four jacks put under it, connected to lugs projecting from the octaweb, which presumably take some of the weight of the stage (or at least prevent it from crushing the legs as the ASDS moves).

The core is then strapped down to the deck by a pair of ratcheted straps attached to each of the four points where the jack is attached. These are attached to the deck by fixings that are indeed welded to the deck (they look to me like lengths of angle section steel, but there's probably more to them than that).

There's no way this process is going to be automated - it needs people to do it; and will continue to do so unless they completely change the way the stages land.

As for the work to raise the container? Presumably to make space for equipment storage - whether or not it's required for use on the deck after the stage has landed. That said, given the size of those jacks, I wouldn't be surprised if the space has been freed up for them (and potentially some new equipment to move them across the deck) to make handling the equipment safer and faster.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/09/2017 02:57 pm
But anyway - Container went up, something new, deck related, is the logical conclusion, I'm still going with securing the stage, using 4 Roomba self-propelled self-welding feet.

Will these self-propelled feet drive around the ASDS deck at random until they each find a rocket leg?

Matthew
Speculation mode: They're not (going to be) mazerunning mice. Model S's don't drive around at random until they find a road, or bump into cars in parking spots until they find an empty one[1].... They use their vision/Lidar/Sonar/Radar etc.

Why would these putative bots not use derived sensors and guidance from a SpaceX sister company, it's more or less a solved problem. Especially with a human at hand to provide advice via joystick.

ModHat: NOT a license to drive down the "Oooh Tesla is cool" road.

1 - think about that visual, I found it hilarious. YMMV.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/09/2017 03:09 pm
I'm pretty sure it was a joke, a-la cats in shark suits riding a Roomba.

There's a support ship right nearby, they can remote control the robots.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 02/09/2017 03:38 pm
Yes, joke, and a poke at the inefficiency of Roomba vacs.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 02/11/2017 02:22 pm
Today
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 02/11/2017 02:39 pm
Looks like this new part of blast wall will slide up.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 02/11/2017 03:55 pm
This is from where the wall was removed. Looks like it will project out from the blast wall. The gray primer gives it away as new, but what is it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 02/11/2017 03:58 pm
This is from the other side of the removed wall. Looks like hinges for the garage door I speculated about.

Edit, removed a stray 'd'
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 02/11/2017 05:34 pm
GO twins and Elsbeth III (?)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 02/11/2017 08:26 pm
This is from where the wall was removed. Looks like it will project out from the blast wall. The gray primer gives it away as new, but what is it?

I think this is a mount for hydraulic cylinder that will raise part of the blast wall. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/11/2017 10:58 pm
This is from where the wall was removed. Looks like it will project out from the blast wall. The gray primer gives it away as new, but what is it?

I think the wall will slide up. This might be the slider's guiding part (I guess the hydrolic system would be lower down or further back)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 02/16/2017 02:00 pm
Any more pictures from the ship that we all love?  :)  :)  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/19/2017 05:36 am
Quote
Ran into #spacex recovery fleet today in Port Canaveral with @TrevorMahlmann and @Restrantek  !

https://twitter.com/craig_vg/status/833081991528591360 (https://twitter.com/craig_vg/status/833081991528591360)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 02/20/2017 07:06 pm
Interesting discussion happening on Facebook:
Link (https://www.facebook.com/groups/spacexgroup/permalink/10155111104511318/?comment_id=10155113492596318&reply_comment_id=10155113580321318&notif_t=group_comment&notif_id=1487618324817767)

Possible sighting of the beast...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jarnis on 02/21/2017 09:49 am
Could you elaborate a bit more. Not all of us use the abomination that is Facebook.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 02/21/2017 11:23 am
Could you elaborate a bit more. Not all of us use the abomination that is Facebook.

Looks like I accidentally snapped a photo of SpaceX robot that will be used on OCISLY.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jpo234 on 02/21/2017 11:26 am
Could you elaborate a bit more. Not all of us use the abomination that is Facebook.

You can follow the link without signing up. It's a discussion about upgrades to the SpaceHab facility at Port Canaveral.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jarnis on 02/21/2017 11:39 am
Could you elaborate a bit more. Not all of us use the abomination that is Facebook.

You can follow the link without signing up. It's a discussion about upgrades to the SpaceHab facility at Port Canaveral.

Didn't work for me. Spouted some security catchpa Incorrect.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 02/21/2017 11:53 am
All I see in the facebook link is 2 pics of something being constructed/worked on under a tent. Is that where the beast is?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 02/21/2017 12:06 pm
Marek, could you upload those pics here?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 02/21/2017 12:28 pm
Marek, could you upload those pics here?
Of course!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 02/21/2017 12:28 pm
And one more
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Paul_G on 02/21/2017 12:37 pm
And to put those individual pictures into context here is the link (and image) from Google Maps (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Kennedy+Space+Center+Visitor+Complex/@28.4135012,-80.6175627,530a,20y,41.57t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88e0b08ad0fe0ad1:0x4eb14063f30a478b!8m2!3d28.523273!4d-80.68161)

Paul
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 02/25/2017 02:11 pm
We can assume that one of reasons SpaceX is building automated rocket mounting robot is to reduce time between barge landing and rocket unload (of course main reason is to eliminate potentially very risky task of catching sliding rocket). So it would make sense to perform more processing steps at the barge - at the minimum leg folding. I wonder if this is what SpaceX plans...
 
Edit - typo

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/25/2017 03:10 pm
As far as we understand it right now, the plan would be to grab the rocket by the legs, and we have no indication that they would plan to be able to fold the legs without having to remove them.

The second point may be justified by both safety and processing reasons.
Safety because you don't want risking the legs to fold upon landing. So if they are simply designed to not fold, it's safer. Processing, because I suspect that they at least have to change the crush core everytime, so it may be easier to do with the legs removed.

Now if they grab the rocket by its feet as they seem to be about to do, it would not be possible right now to fole or remove the legs in situ.

I guess a first indication of that happening would be if we see a holding stand and crane appearing on the droneship. So I would say not in the nearfuture at least, and I'm not convinced that it would be really doable.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 02/25/2017 03:57 pm
To have a sufficiently tall crane on the barge, and a stand, I would think the barge would have to get much, much larger.  And trying to manage such a large crane while the barge is pitching and rolling with the waves would be dicey, at best.  So unless SpaceX wants to recycle a full-sized aircraft carrier or an oil super-tanker to recover stages, I would think they're better off simply doing what it appears they are doing: coming up with a safer, more automated way to secure the stage.  There's no pressing need to do more than that, at least that I am aware of.

If they absolutely had to put in something to secure the stage in an upright position and remove the legs before getting back to port, they could always try to do something like the Soyuz TLE in reverse, with multiple arms reaching up from below to enclose the stage like a Venus Flytrap with three or four petals.  Such a Goldberg device would probably be safer than installing a crane on the barge.

It would still require a bigger barge, though, and it probably wouldn't be worth the expense.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RonM on 02/25/2017 04:09 pm
Why SpaceX would want to remove the legs at sea? it may save a little time, but it's simpler to hold down the booster by the legs than move it to a mount on the ship.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/25/2017 04:47 pm
We don't actually "know" that the plan is to grab the feet.  The "Roomba garage" could be for videography drones or fire-fighting robots or who knows what else.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 02/25/2017 06:48 pm
We don't actually "know" that the plan is to grab the feet.  The "Roomba garage" could be for videography drones or fire-fighting robots or who knows what else.

or just old fashion aircraft jack storage
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/25/2017 07:17 pm
We don't actually "know" that the plan is to grab the feet.  The "Roomba garage" could be for videography drones or fire-fighting robots or who knows what else.

That's why I used "As far as we understand it", and not "As far as we know".
That said, grabbing it by its feet is quicker, safer and simpler (and thus even safer) that what is currently used.

It makes a lot of sense, and I'm actualy surprised that they didn't use it since the very beginning, since the first landings were arguably the most dangerous ones, given that they were more experimental.

It is the leading theory, there is no indication that they are doing something else, and I am myself fairly certain that's what they are doing, even though I have no definite proof.
Now once that's said, feel free to disagree, but I believe I make a pretty good case ! :-)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/25/2017 09:50 pm
Why invest in foot welding robots before you know whether there will be any feet to even weld. SpaceX is incremental. Each time, they improve something.

Watch and wait.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 02/26/2017 01:50 am
Okay, so here's my unasked for, un-rooted in firsthand knowledge, prediction.

Based on what the Roadie has alluded, and on what's been shown by the excellent spy photos around the ASDS, and on a general observation of the recovery process, here's my WAG on what's being developed...

Deck ops on the ASDS are dangerous and open SpaceX up for all kinds of liability (my job is to mitigate liability on a relatively dangerous workplace activity, so I'm sensitive to that). So I suggest they're developing a bot (four per ASDS) that has a jack stand top that can autonomously navigate out to under a landed booster, attach to a hold down point and spot weld itself to the deck after a positive capture of the hold down point. Four of these effectively replace the function of the jacks and ratchet chains humans currently need to install under a landed booster. No crane (way too impractical on the barge), no lifting it up into the stands you see in port to remove the legs, and no attaching anything to the legs themselves. The legs are a liability whereas the hold down points on the octoweb are designed to take strain.

This is just to allow an autonomous securing of the stage until its towed to port to take the human out of the loop.

But, as Lar said, time will tell...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/26/2017 03:41 am
How high above the deck are the hold down points?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 02/26/2017 03:58 am
How high above the deck are the hold down points?

About ten feet. It's over five feet from the ground to the bottom of the engine bells, and then I estimated the rest based on this picture. (https://flickr.com/photos/138390583@N08/28520816944/)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/26/2017 06:11 am
Okay, so here's my unasked for, un-rooted in firsthand knowledge, prediction.

Based on what the Roadie has alluded, and on what's been shown by the excellent spy photos around the ASDS, and on a general observation of the recovery process, here's my WAG on what's being developed...

Deck ops on the ASDS are dangerous and open SpaceX up for all kinds of liability (my job is to mitigate liability on a relatively dangerous workplace activity, so I'm sensitive to that). So I suggest they're developing a bot (four per ASDS) that has a jack stand top that can autonomously navigate out to under a landed booster, attach to a hold down point and spot weld itself to the deck after a positive capture of the hold down point. Four of these effectively replace the function of the jacks and ratchet chains humans currently need to install under a landed booster. No crane (way too impractical on the barge), no lifting it up into the stands you see in port to remove the legs, and no attaching anything to the legs themselves. The legs are a liability whereas the hold down points on the octoweb are designed to take strain.

This is just to allow an autonomous securing of the stage until its towed to port to take the human out of the loop.

But, as Lar said, time will tell...

If you're right, and the intent is to catch the thrust structure (or hold-downs) then you need a single large robot (3.7m diameter) since everything is rigid.  It drives underneath, grabs the holddowns, and welds itself down.  I like that a lot.

However, I'm voting for "catch it be the legs" until the crew can board.  That'll be a plenty safe condition for them to operate on the rocket. Since the legs are not rigid, (and since you won't build a 20m robot) then in that case I'd vote for 4 individual robots.

I'll be happy either way, assuming always we are talking about a tie-down robot of some sort.

(And I 100% agree with the rationale.  Boarding a barge with an unsecured load like this is just waiting for an accident)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: marksmit on 02/26/2017 09:54 am
A whole bunch of high quality new photos of OCISLY of yesterday: https://imgur.com/gallery/TDVSV
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 02/26/2017 12:45 pm
Excellent photos. Looks like they've built a small platform area between the top of the existing blast deflector and the newly-elevated equipment container, and built a new section of blast deflector plates on that elevated platform to protect the exposed top half of the container. Whatever is going into the "garage area" below the new platform and container behind the existing blast wall will be pretty well protected.

Still not convinced it's going to be  "Roomba welders" or any such Rube Goldberg contraption, but it will be interesting to watch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/26/2017 03:11 pm
Excellent photos. Looks like they've built a small platform area between the top of the existing blast deflector and the newly-elevated equipment container, and built a new section of blast deflector plates on that elevated platform to protect the exposed top half of the container. Whatever is going into the "garage area" below the new platform and container behind the existing blast wall will be pretty well protected.

Still not convinced it's going to be  "Roomba welders" or any such Rube Goldberg contraption, but it will be interesting to watch.
The Roomba take offense at being labeled Rube Goldberg-esque
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 02/26/2017 05:27 pm
They had a little man lift on board for early landing attempts but it got toasted in a crash. I don't think they have had one aboard since. Not sure what they were planning on using the rig for, but It seems likely the purpose of the new garage is to protect it. Weldbas would be cool though.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 02/26/2017 05:54 pm
Garage is ready
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 02/26/2017 07:15 pm
There are several big welded-on eyes / attachment points on both the refitted section of blast wall and the flat deck above it.  I wonder what they're for?

Looking at that image, it might just be that they want to store something like decent-sized welding sets on board and be able to lift up a section of blast wall and roll them out.

We sometimes look for complication, forgetting that a lot of what SpaceX does is simple (admittedly well-executed) rather than intricate to the extreme.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Davp99 on 02/26/2017 07:26 pm
Aye Skipper, Open up the "Shamrock Garage"..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 02/26/2017 07:50 pm
After a look at the pics (Thanks!!!!!!!!), I now agree with those who say something is definitely going on regarding the blast wall and that new space under a container.

I'm dubious that they are making the blast wall open upward though; that would be hard due to the weight of it. My guess is either sliding to the side, or hinged panels opening outward.

My current prime suspect for a resident of the new space is a cherry picker, but that's just a wild guess. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/26/2017 08:07 pm
After a look at the pics (Thanks!!!!!!!!), I now agree with those who say something is definitely going on regarding the blast wall and that new space under a container.

I'm dubious that they are making the blast wall open upward though; that would be hard due to the weight of it. My guess is either sliding to the side, or hinged panels opening outward.

My current prime suspect for a resident of the new space is a cherry picker, but that's just a wild guess.

I like the sliding idea.  And I think Musk had enough of the Gull Wing design. :)
(Though FWIW, people who actually use it say it's surprisingly convenient)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 02/26/2017 08:15 pm
My current prime suspect for a resident of the new space is a cherry picker, but that's just a wild guess.

I posted photo of the "resident" in L2 - definitely not cherry picker. Not posting here as SpaceX clearly doesn't want it to be seen in public - at least not yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 02/26/2017 08:16 pm
I think those eyes are for installation? May get removed (or left in place for that matter). That section can't slide as there's a piece of steel proud of that wall section on either side of it. Possibly to house hydraulic rams for lifting it up.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 02/26/2017 08:17 pm
My current prime suspect for a resident of the new space is a cherry picker, but that's just a wild guess.

I posted photo of the "resident" in L2 - definitely not cherry picker. Not posting here as SpaceX clearly doesn't want it to be seen in public - at least not yet.
Lol - you just sold a bunch of subscriptions to L2...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 02/26/2017 08:31 pm
My current prime suspect for a resident of the new space is a cherry picker, but that's just a wild guess.

I posted photo of the "resident" in L2 - definitely not cherry picker. Not posting here as SpaceX clearly doesn't want it to be seen in public - at least not yet.
Lol - you just sold a bunch of subscriptions to L2...

Full disclosure - I have no financial interest in selling L2 subscriptions :) But if SpaceX doesn't want something to be visible to a point of dropping shipping container to block view, then let's keep audience limited. I'm sure in a couple of weeks SpaceX will roll "Roomba" out to OCISLY and we will see it in full glory.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/26/2017 10:04 pm
I like the sliding idea.  And I think Musk had enough of the Gull Wing design. :)
(Though FWIW, people who actually use it say it's surprisingly convenient)
I drive a model X and have two kids and Falcon Wing Doors are indeed marvellous for getting kids in and out of car seats.

The difference between "Falcon Wing" and "Gull Wing" doors is the addition of a second hinge in the middle of the door which lets it lift straight up with very little clearance needed. Great for tight parking lots.

Unnecessary on a barge.

I expect the door will hinge up for the Roomba like a doggie door.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SpaceXfan on 02/27/2017 12:13 am
My current prime suspect for a resident of the new space is a cherry picker, but that's just a wild guess.

I posted photo of the "resident" in L2 - definitely not cherry picker. Not posting here as SpaceX clearly doesn't want it to be seen in public - at least not yet.
Lol - you just sold a bunch of subscriptions to L2...

Great call by Marek and L2 was already amazing, but per his purpsoe the SpaceXers in there can evaluate.

Anyway....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 02/27/2017 12:49 am
The robot needs to fit under nozzles so it cannot be too tall.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dwheeler on 02/27/2017 01:36 am
Well which is more valuable, a cherry picker or the astromech droid under the shamrock?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 02/27/2017 03:59 am
After a look at the pics (Thanks!!!!!!!!), I now agree with those who say something is definitely going on regarding the blast wall and that new space under a container.

I'm dubious that they are making the blast wall open upward though; that would be hard due to the weight of it. My guess is either sliding to the side, or hinged panels opening outward.

My current prime suspect for a resident of the new space is a cherry picker, but that's just a wild guess.

Not so wild a guess..  we've seen them store one in that general area before, and lose same in an early landing attempt.  They're not cheap (neither are EWP's) so IMHO storage of either, and maybe a welder or four, is most likely.

Personally I'm against the self-welding Roomba/robot idea: The risk of damage to a landed stage should one accidentally collide with the legs is non-trivial, nor is trying to locate itself on a wet, slippery and heaving steel deck.

Regarding opening:  Unless the actually open it around the time someone is talking pics, I guess we'll never know.  Opening outward/upward on hydraulic rams garage-door style was proposed here, but that would place additional height limits on whatever it was you wanted to store, whilst sliding would mean a track/rollers that could potentially get jammed in a big seaway.  All I'm saying is there are disadvantages with both.. but I'm sure we'll find out in due course.

Based on what's been posted (Thanks, Mareck!), and also your comments, I think I'm wrong on the sliding blastwall. It wouldn't be that mechanically difficult to have the blastwall on rollers and raise it that way (basically, rollers in the angled supports). Could be done with hydraulics, or just electric winches. (Unless there are other things needing hydraulics, my guess is the latter).

As for the cherry picker; they've made a sizable garage, so maybe it's not either/or.

Now, for the mystery occupants... hrmmm. I'm still guessing it's some means of securing the F9. I'm also intrigued by the deck plate work they were seen doing in the center. So, seeing as I'm still in wild speculation mode... what if they are connected? Four roomba-ish disks head out and slot themselves onto the legs. They could be remote-operated - they've already got plenty of comms. The disks include a steel plate. Once in place, the wheels retract, lowering the steel plate to the deck. And under the deck is an electromagnet.

Now, to replace the jackstands... a dome-topped robot heads out, positions itself under an engine bell, and raises its dome to fit into an engine bell? (I'm far from sure an engine bell could take the stress).

My guess for motive for all of the above is they would like to secure the F9 before sending crew aboard the ASDS for safety reasons, with an additional motive that doing so robotically could be done faster  than waiting for a crew to arrive (thus potentially saving a precarious f9).

I would further guess that if what they try works, we'll see it at LZ1 soon, too. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/27/2017 05:00 am
Now, for the mystery occupants... hrmmm. I'm still guessing it's some means of securing the F9. I'm also intrigued by the deck plate work they were seen doing in the center. So, seeing as I'm still in wild speculation mode... what if they are connected? Four roomba-ish disks head out and slot themselves onto the legs. They could be remote-operated - they've already got plenty of comms. The disks include a steel plate. Once in place, the wheels retract, lowering the steel plate to the deck. And under the deck is an electromagnet.

Now, to replace the jackstands... a dome-topped robot heads out, positions itself under an engine bell, and raises its dome to fit into an engine bell? (I'm far from sure an engine bell could take the stress).

My guess for motive for all of the above is they would like to secure the F9 before sending crew aboard the ASDS for safety reasons, with an additional motive that doing so robotically could be done faster  than waiting for a crew to arrive (thus potentially saving a precarious f9).

I would further guess that if what they try works, we'll see it at LZ1 soon, too.

{emphasis mine} If there was anything under the deck, they'd need a water-tight leg-impact-resistant access hatch and ladder to fix/maintain it, plus confined-space entry permits, etc. etc... No, I'd be very surprised if there was anything under the deck.

Anyways, I still don't get it.  Three reasons:
a) There's been no evidence (that we've seen to date) of a properly-landed-on-all-four-legs stage moving anywhere in the time taken to get the Barge Crew aboard, and
b) the non-zero risk of a moving Roomba colliding with and injuring one of the barge crew is non-zero - especially in a heavy swell... or are the Barge Crew not allowed to board until the Roomba's are secure?  What if one of them can't secure (wet slippery deck, etc.)?? and then
c) The non-zero risk of a Roomba collision with one of the legs affecting the integrity of the landed stage makes the whole concept rather implausible. 

By doing this I'd think you were adding to the dangers the Barge Crew need to deal with.. not making it safer.  Plus, I'm not sure you make the entire process any quicker given that the ASDS will surely be on it's way back to port under it's own steam the moment the stage has landed, whilst the crew/tug catch up, secure and complete the tow - only a couple of knots faster.


EDIT:  Mind you, Elon appears to thrive on implausible.. so I'm sure we'll know soon enough.  But if that's what they have in mind, I'd be asking for double danger-money if I were one of the Barge Crew on the first go. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/27/2017 09:43 am
I'm starting to think that maybe I'll have to revise my position on it being four separated robots.
Based on *Marek's photo a few pots ago, this thing's about as big as a cherry picker ! Could very well go under the bells.

Anyways, I still don't get it.  Three reasons:
a) There's been no evidence (that we've seen to date) of a properly-landed-on-all-four-legs stage moving anywhere in the time taken to get the Barge Crew aboard, and
b) the non-zero risk of a moving Roomba colliding with and injuring one of the barge crew is non-zero - especially in a heavy swell... or are the Barge Crew not allowed to board until the Roomba's are secure?  What if one of them can't secure (wet slippery deck, etc.)?? and then
c) The non-zero risk of a Roomba collision with one of the legs affecting the integrity of the landed stage makes the whole concept rather implausible. 

By doing this I'd think you were adding to the dangers the Barge Crew need to deal with.. not making it safer.  Plus, I'm not sure you make the entire process any quicker given that the ASDS will surely be on it's way back to port under it's own steam the moment the stage has landed, whilst the crew/tug catch up, secure and complete the tow - only a couple of knots faster.

All of the risks you identify are related to crew on the deck at the same time as the robot mooving.
The only benefit in introducing a robot is if it allows you to remotely secure the stage (and thus the robot) before bringing any crew on board.

Now there are the edge cases where you potentially couldn't secure the robot nor bring it back to the garage. I see 2 possibilities :
 - You identify the usability limits of the robot beforehand through testing, and if not usable, you don't even try to let the robot out.
 - If it's not safe for the robot, is there really any chance that it's not a deathwish to send crew on board ? You might be talking about the cases where they'd rather ditch the stage into the ocean than try to catch it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 02/27/2017 12:14 pm
I like the magnets under the deck.
The deck would need to be made of stainless or something non magnetic. Maybe thats why we saw them replacing the deck in the middle.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 02/27/2017 12:43 pm
given that the ASDS will surely be on it's way back to port under it's own steam the moment the stage has landed

What is this claim based on?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 02/27/2017 12:52 pm
I like the magnets under the deck.
The deck would need to be made of stainless or something non magnetic. Maybe thats why we saw them replacing the deck in the middle.
Or more probable, the magnet would be on the bot and just stick to the steel deck wherever it pleases. However IF (and that's a capital 'if') there really is going to be a robot on the ASDS (and that would be so freekin amazing!) I still expect it to fire some stud welds into the deck and call it a day. Welding and barges (sorry, ASDS's) go hand in hand...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 02/27/2017 01:08 pm
I like the magnets under the deck.
The deck would need to be made of stainless or something non magnetic. Maybe thats why we saw them replacing the deck in the middle.
Or more probable, the magnet would be on the bot and just stick to the steel deck wherever it pleases. However IF (and that's a capital 'if') there really is going to be a robot on the ASDS (and that would be so freekin amazing!) I still expect it to fire some stud welds into the deck and call it a day. Welding and barges (sorry, ASDS's) go hand in hand...

I always liked magnets as a solution for attaching. The problem I had was four robots with wires to power the electromagnets across the deck. Now put the electromagnets and wires under deck away from salt  water and things to get tangled on and it sort of works out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 02/27/2017 01:14 pm
Also would love to see some process handling improvement. Right now there is so many long steps to perform to get a booster horizontal on a truck.
1. automated way to remove legs
2. automated vertical to horizontal
3. remove need for crane

Thats a lot but it would nice to see any one of them.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 02/27/2017 01:21 pm
Also would love to see some process handling improvement. Right now there is so many long steps to perform to get a booster horizontal on a truck.
1. automated way to remove legs
2. automated vertical to horizontal
3. remove need for crane

Thats a lot but it would nice to see any one of them.
It would be quite sufficient if they could eliminate the need for a crew of welders to board the barge in mid-ocean to secure the stage.  All else would be gravy.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 02/27/2017 01:22 pm
Yes gravy! I love gravy on my fries!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CuddlyRocket on 02/27/2017 10:10 pm
Also would love to see some process handling improvement. Right now there is so many long steps to perform to get a booster horizontal on a truck.
1. automated way to remove legs
2. automated vertical to horizontal
3. remove need for crane

Thats a lot but it would nice to see any one of them.
It would be quite sufficient if they could eliminate the need for a crew of welders to board the barge in mid-ocean to secure the stage.  All else would be gravy.

The plan for ITS is for the first stage to land back in its launch cradle. It would make sense to start technology development and testing as soon as possible, especially where you have legs as a back-up and it can provide current-day benefits. SpaceX has a knack of using current missions to develop future tech.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 02/27/2017 10:19 pm
That thought actually occurred to me too.
Moveable landing socket is what the roomba is.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/28/2017 11:34 pm
Anyways, I still don't get it.  Three reasons:
a) There's been no evidence (that we've seen to date) of a properly-landed-on-all-four-legs stage moving anywhere in the time taken to get the Barge Crew aboard, and
b) the non-zero risk of a moving Roomba colliding with and injuring one of the barge crew is non-zero - especially in a heavy swell... or are the Barge Crew not allowed to board until the Roomba's are secure?  What if one of them can't secure (wet slippery deck, etc.)?? and then
c) The non-zero risk of a Roomba collision with one of the legs affecting the integrity of the landed stage makes the whole concept rather implausible. 

By doing this I'd think you were adding to the dangers the Barge Crew need to deal with.. not making it safer.  Plus, I'm not sure you make the entire process any quicker given that the ASDS will surely be on it's way back to port under it's own steam the moment the stage has landed, whilst the crew/tug catch up, secure and complete the tow - only a couple of knots faster.

All of the risks you identify are related to crew on the deck at the same time as the robot mooving.

No... the ASDS is out on the open ocean - not some factory floor. There's still a risk of the robot(s) driving out of the garage straight into one of the legs after a mistimed wave (wave impacts can be quite random) sends it off course. Problem (c) above. The bigger the robot, the bigger the impact on a fragile carbon-fibre leg.  As we've seen already, loss of one leg generally means loss of the rocket.
 
Now there are the edge cases where you potentially couldn't secure the robot nor bring it back to the garage. I see 2 possibilities :
 - You identify the usability limits of the robot beforehand through testing, and if not usable, you don't even try to let the robot out.
 - If it's not safe for the robot, is there really any chance that it's not a deathwish to send crew on board ? You might be talking about the cases where they'd rather ditch the stage into the ocean than try to catch it.

In my mind it comes down to how they might guide the thing.  I have some experience with wheeled vehicles on ship decks in the open ocean and can say you generally avoid it if you can.  There are ways to increase deck friction using non-skid rubber compounds, but I have yet to find a deck coating that wouldn't get removed instantly by the landing burn.  That leaves you with a slippery steel deck and no way (remotely) to determine how much traction you actually have until you take the thing for a drive.  The term "loose cannon" is the one most often used.

These same conditions are not "a deathwish to send crew on board" -  seaboot-wearing crew would have no trouble at all keeping their footing in situations that would have a rubber-tracked vehicle of any kind sliding all over the deck.  To suggest anything else is an insult to fishermen everywhere.

I commend the Roomba idea, but as I posted, I just can't see the risk/return indicating money well spent and I do think that in my experience, until you can teach a robot situational awareness on the high seas, for reasons of safety of both crew and rocket the decision to move anything out of the garage and around the deck would be better taken by a human on-board, making the entire exercise rather pointless.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 03/01/2017 11:27 am
Anyways, I still don't get it.  Three reasons:
a) There's been no evidence (that we've seen to date) of a properly-landed-on-all-four-legs stage moving anywhere in the time taken to get the Barge Crew aboard, and
b) the non-zero risk of a moving Roomba colliding with and injuring one of the barge crew is non-zero - especially in a heavy swell... or are the Barge Crew not allowed to board until the Roomba's are secure?  What if one of them can't secure (wet slippery deck, etc.)?? and then
c) The non-zero risk of a Roomba collision with one of the legs affecting the integrity of the landed stage makes the whole concept rather implausible. 

By doing this I'd think you were adding to the dangers the Barge Crew need to deal with.. not making it safer.  Plus, I'm not sure you make the entire process any quicker given that the ASDS will surely be on it's way back to port under it's own steam the moment the stage has landed, whilst the crew/tug catch up, secure and complete the tow - only a couple of knots faster.

All of the risks you identify are related to crew on the deck at the same time as the robot mooving.

No... the ASDS is out on the open ocean - not some factory floor. There's still a risk of the robot(s) driving out of the garage straight into one of the legs after a mistimed wave (wave impacts can be quite random) sends it off course. Problem (c) above. The bigger the robot, the bigger the impact on a fragile carbon-fibre leg.  As we've seen already, loss of one leg generally means loss of the rocket.
 
Now there are the edge cases where you potentially couldn't secure the robot nor bring it back to the garage. I see 2 possibilities :
 - You identify the usability limits of the robot beforehand through testing, and if not usable, you don't even try to let the robot out.
 - If it's not safe for the robot, is there really any chance that it's not a deathwish to send crew on board ? You might be talking about the cases where they'd rather ditch the stage into the ocean than try to catch it.

In my mind it comes down to how they might guide the thing.  I have some experience with wheeled vehicles on ship decks in the open ocean and can say you generally avoid it if you can.  There are ways to increase deck friction using non-skid rubber compounds, but I have yet to find a deck coating that wouldn't get removed instantly by the landing burn.  That leaves you with a slippery steel deck and no way (remotely) to determine how much traction you actually have until you take the thing for a drive.  The term "loose cannon" is the one most often used.

These same conditions are not "a deathwish to send crew on board" -  seaboot-wearing crew would have no trouble at all keeping their footing in situations that would have a rubber-tracked vehicle of any kind sliding all over the deck.  To suggest anything else is an insult to fishermen everywhere.

I commend the Roomba idea, but as I posted, I just can't see the risk/return indicating money well spent and I do think that in my experience, until you can teach a robot situational awareness on the high seas, for reasons of safety of both crew and rocket the decision to move anything out of the garage and around the deck would be better taken by a human on-board, making the entire exercise rather pointless.
 

Remote control- you don't need anyone within 5 miles. You don't need complete autonomy. Seems to work for Drones. Decent set of cameras on the 'thing' would be fine.

Waves hits? Big magnet sucks the 'thing' down to the deck if the system detects a harsh unexpected movement.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 03/01/2017 12:20 pm
No... the ASDS is out on the open ocean - not some factory floor. There's still a risk of the robot(s) driving out of the garage straight into one of the legs after a mistimed wave (wave impacts can be quite random) sends it off course. Problem (c) above. The bigger the robot, the bigger the impact on a fragile carbon-fibre leg.  As we've seen already, loss of one leg generally means loss of the rocket.

I commend the Roomba idea, but as I posted, I just can't see the risk/return indicating money well spent and I do think that in my experience, until you can teach a robot situational awareness on the high seas, for reasons of safety of both crew and rocket the decision to move anything out of the garage and around the deck would be better taken by a human on-board, making the entire exercise rather pointless.

You make some realy good points.
We'll have to see how it pans out. 

I'd just like to point out a few elements: 
 - In my mind, said robots were never autonomous. It's like remote submarine operations or mars rover operations. The robot doesn't take cratical decisions (and in a lot of cases any decision) on its own. There is an operator, who just isn't on site.
 - With a crawler, you sould be able to arbitrarily increase friction. You could even imagine safety tethering to specific fixtures on deck, even if we have seen no evidence of such a thing. For me, the loose cannon robot scenario is something that has to be solved, but not something that can't be solved.
 - Worst case scenario, if there remains cases like you point out, where a crewman would be just fine and not a robot, it should remain an edge case, where you send someone with a nice risk bonus to perform unsafe operations. Not a part of routine operations.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 03/01/2017 01:42 pm
If there is a some sort of automated hold down coming, I would guess it would be about the diameter of the rocket and crawl underneath to engage the holddowns. Battery powered clamps like those on a magdrill don't use a lot of juice. When the gizmo is in position it could lock itself in place with the magnets, and then secure itself with powder actuated fasteners, self drilling/tapping bolts, or stud welding.

I don't think grabbing the feet is the gentlest way to handle or secure the stage.

The garage seems big enough to accommodate such a device which would be roughly 12 feet in diameter and three feet tall.

Matthew

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 03/01/2017 02:12 pm
Opinion...  ;)
It will be powered by the gensets on the barge and will trail a power cord to power itself...
It will have rubber tracks to move around and magnetic feet to stop and lock itself down to the deck...
Wifi control linkage to the barge systems and a remote operator elsewhere... Video linkage, same system...

Operation...
Rocket lands... fires put out... situation on deck assessed..
Door opens... Rocket "Roomba" driven out and maneuvered remotely under the stage on deck...
The magnetic feet lower... energize...  and pick the robot up to latch onto the rocket...

Something along that lines... what I'm thinking... my opinion on topic...  ???
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 03/01/2017 02:23 pm
That sounds about right from the pics we have seen.

Now is there any process flow improvement we can get?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 03/01/2017 08:29 pm
Now is there any process flow improvement we can get?

I think the goal for now... is safety for the workers...  ;)
Moving those heavy jacks into place... welding angles down... chaining it down... is so 'old school'...  :P

It will be interesting to see what exactly comes out of that tent and onto the barge...  8)

I think later and if the need for speed is real... they will look at further things to improve the process...  ;)
The number one slow down IMHO is transit time port to sea and back... not much they can do there at this time...  :P
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 03/01/2017 09:02 pm
well once you got something clamped on to the bottom of the rocket it could stretch up just a little more and allow you to remove the legs as soon as you got into port. from their just tilt horizontal on the barge and pickup with crane and put on truck. Seems like a lot of steps could be eliminated by the correct design of this roomba.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zardar on 03/01/2017 10:44 pm
There are several process improvements the robot could do.

Anything that reduces the time that crew have to be on the deck and interacting with the rocket will improve the safety of that crew.

Perhaps once the robot has secured the base of the rocket, it could connect up to the base fluids connector and drain and make safe any residual propellant or other hazardous fluid?

Perhaps it could also supply 'keep alive' power to the falcon avionics, to ensure telemetry can be received and valves etc. can be commanded?

Perhaps it could keep the tanks pressurised with clean air/N2, protecting the tanks from sea-air ingress?

Perhaps it could do a photo-survey of the base of the rocket?


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/01/2017 10:50 pm
There are several process improvements the robot could do.

Anything that reduces the time that crew have to be on the deck and interacting with the rocket will improve the safety of that crew.

Perhaps once the robot has secured the base of the rocket, it could connect up to the base fluids connector and drain and make safe any residual propellant or other hazardous fluid?

Perhaps it could also supply 'keep alive' power to the falcon avionics, to ensure telemetry can be received and valves etc. can be commanded?

Perhaps it could keep the tanks pressurised with clean air/N2, protecting the tanks from sea-air ingress?

Perhaps it could do a photo-survey of the base of the rocket?

Perhaps it could brew up hot coffee for the crew when they arrive?  :P
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/01/2017 10:51 pm
There are several process improvements the robot could do.

Anything that reduces the time that crew have to be on the deck and interacting with the rocket will improve the safety of that crew.

Perhaps once the robot has secured the base of the rocket, it could connect up to the base fluids connector and drain and make safe any residual propellant or other hazardous fluid?

Perhaps it could also supply 'keep alive' power to the falcon avionics, to ensure telemetry can be received and valves etc. can be commanded?

Perhaps it could keep the tanks pressurised with clean air/N2, protecting the tanks from sea-air ingress?

Perhaps it could do a photo-survey of the base of the rocket?

Perhaps it could brew up hot coffee for the crew when they arrive? 
I so saw that coming...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/01/2017 10:55 pm
Perhaps it could brew up hot coffee for the crew when they arrive? 
I so saw that coming...

LOL.  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 03/02/2017 12:39 am

1.  Perhaps once the robot has secured the base of the rocket, it could connect up to the base fluids connector and drain and make safe any residual propellant or other hazardous fluid?

2.  Perhaps it could also supply 'keep alive' power to the falcon avionics, to ensure telemetry can be received and valves etc. can be commanded?

3.  Perhaps it could keep the tanks pressurised with clean air/N2, protecting the tanks from sea-air ingress?


1.  No, it would require tanks.  Plus it is not needed.  The only fluid is RP-1

2.  Not needed.  it has sufficient batteries.

3. Not needed.  They already are. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zardar on 03/02/2017 09:03 am

1.  Perhaps once the robot has secured the base of the rocket, it could connect up to the base fluids connector and drain and make safe any residual propellant or other hazardous fluid?


1.  No, it would require tanks.  Plus it is not needed.  The only fluid is RP-1


What about the Triethylaluminum/Triethylborane? Or is that all burned off during the landing burn?

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 03/02/2017 09:22 am

1.  Perhaps once the robot has secured the base of the rocket, it could connect up to the base fluids connector and drain and make safe any residual propellant or other hazardous fluid?


1.  No, it would require tanks.  Plus it is not needed.  The only fluid is RP-1


What about the Triethylaluminum/Triethylborane? Or is that all burned off during the landing burn?

If I remember correctly, one of the first things the stage does (or did) upon landing is burn them off, as part of the safing the stage procedure.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/02/2017 03:41 pm
So out of curiosity..  assuming the robot weighs enough so that welding is not necessary - what will the crew be doing after the stage is latched and secured?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 03/02/2017 05:31 pm
So out of curiosity..  assuming the robot weighs enough so that welding is not necessary - what will the crew be doing after the stage is latched and secured?

Hopefully not even getting on board.
They could even hook up to the towline without getting on board.
Boarding ships at sea in waves is something that should be avoided if possible.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JasonAW3 on 03/02/2017 06:38 pm
So out of curiosity..  assuming the robot weighs enough so that welding is not necessary - what will the crew be doing after the stage is latched and secured?

Hopefully not even getting on board.
They could even hook up to the towline without getting on board.
Boarding ships at sea in waves is something that should be avoided if possible.

Might be able to rig up a bosen chair between the ship and ASDS, but it'd still be dangerous as all heck!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 03/02/2017 07:34 pm
So out of curiosity..  assuming the robot weighs enough so that welding is not necessary - what will the crew be doing after the stage is latched and secured?

Hopefully not even getting on board.
They could even hook up to the towline without getting on board.
Boarding ships at sea in waves is something that should be avoided if possible.

Might be able to rig up a bosen chair between the ship and ASDS, but it'd still be dangerous as all heck!
From ships to  platforms we'd use cranes. The crane operator would get to Tarzan over on a rope. Managers in dry offices on land came up with lots of brilliant schemes for ship to ship in seas, but it always went back to jumping when the odds looked good.
 Most of us put Bosun's chairs up there with Bangalore torpedoes as the worst inventions in history.

 If you were going to secure the legs in seas with Roombas, electromagnets would be a lot simpler and faster than automated welding. I doubt if the barge would ever be allowed in any port before a crew boarded and took care of a few things.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/02/2017 07:58 pm
So out of curiosity..  assuming the robot weighs enough so that welding is not necessary - what will the crew be doing after the stage is latched and secured?

Hopefully not even getting on board.
They could even hook up to the towline without getting on board.
Boarding ships at sea in waves is something that should be avoided if possible.

Might be able to rig up a bosen chair between the ship and ASDS, but it'd still be dangerous as all heck!
From ships to  platforms we'd use cranes. The crane operator would get to Tarzan over on a rope. Managers in dry offices on land came up with lots of brilliant schemes for ship to ship in seas, but it always went back to jumping when the odds looked good.
 Most of us put Bosun's chairs up there with Bangalore torpedoes as the worst inventions in history.

 If you were going to secure the legs in seas with Roombas, electromagnets would be a lot simpler and faster than automated welding. I doubt if the barge would ever be allowed in any port before a crew boarded and took care of a few things.
A central mega-Roomba, as opposed to four foot-grabbers, can be heavy enough that it does not need magnets or stud welders. It just IS, held in place by the power of its own majesty.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 03/02/2017 08:31 pm
So I think some kind of "securing" robot is a given.
Spacex loves to kill 2 birds with one stone. Or basically get more than one thing done.
I still think they will have some big improvement with process flow with this robot being on board the barge.
I'm predicting that this robot will secure the stage for transit and when back in port lift the stage enough for leg removal thereby removing 2 of 3 steps so they can got right to make horizontal and load on truck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 03/02/2017 08:58 pm
Any sort of remote vehicle like this could be engineered such that it maintains traction in at least the same sea state that a landed stage maintains traction.  Mass, deck vs. tire friction, cross section vs. wave or wind action, all of it is solvable.

My uninformed guess is a low-profile (Roomba-like) crawler that scoots under the landed stage, aligns and rotates a jack stand that engages the launch hold downs, extends outriggers, and then lifts the stage enough to take the load off the legs.  0% autonomous, supported by onboard and on-barge video assets.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Confusador on 03/02/2017 09:01 pm
So I think some kind of "securing" robot is a given.
....

I'm not actually sold on that, though I grant the possibility.  I'm betting on a fire-fighting robot.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/02/2017 09:35 pm
So out of curiosity..  assuming the robot weighs enough so that welding is not necessary - what will the crew be doing after the stage is latched and secured?

Hopefully not even getting on board.
They could even hook up to the towline without getting on board.
Boarding ships at sea in waves is something that should be avoided if possible.

Actually, it's not all that dangerous (with the proper skills and equipment) so long as the vessel being boarded is moving, eg. the ASDS going flat-out for home, at the right angle to the waves.  Sea pilots do this all the time and something fairly low and wide (like a barge) is deliberately designed to be easy to board in all but the roughest of seas.

Believe me, the nervy bit is getting off of the comfy, warm, mother ship into the "dinghy"..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 03/02/2017 09:41 pm
eg. the ASDS going flat-out for home, at the right angle to the waves.

Does the ASDS ever do anything but stationkeep under it's own power?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 03/02/2017 11:02 pm
So I think some kind of "securing" robot is a given.
....

I'm not actually sold on that, though I grant the possibility.  I'm betting on a fire-fighting robot.

Why not both? Dousing the bottom of the stage with foam is pretty easy if you're already under there grabbing the hold-down points.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/03/2017 01:57 am
Any sort of remote vehicle like this could be engineered such that it maintains traction in at least the same sea state that a landed stage maintains traction.  Mass, deck vs. tire friction, cross section vs. wave or wind action, all of it is solvable.

My uninformed guess is a low-profile (Roomba-like) crawler that scoots under the landed stage, aligns and rotates a jack stand that engages the launch hold downs, extends outriggers, and then lifts the stage enough to take the load off the legs.  0% autonomous, supported by onboard and on-barge video assets.

I'm with you until the "lift" part.

I think it pulls down.

You need the "wide stance" of the original legs, but because the rocket is tall, a stage can "walk" by temporarily losing traction on a 1-2 legs.

The Roomba can weigh as much as the entire rocket.  Have it pull down, so that the normal forces on the legs double (they are rated for a dynamic impact, so they'll be fine with the extra load), and still have traction left over at the Roomba itself.

Sort of like chaining the stage down with a vertical chain.  The chain itself doesn't add lateral holding forces, but the extra load on the legs sure does.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/03/2017 04:13 am
eg. the ASDS going flat-out for home, at the right angle to the waves.

Does the ASDS ever do anything but stationkeep under it's own power?

IIRC, we've seen video of it cruising around in happy circles after the first successful landing many pages back.. but in any case, there's absolutely no reason why it couldn't, simply by shifting the setpoint to 'back to port'.  With the thrusters they're using, I expect the speed wouldn't be more than a couple of knots, but that's better (and a lot safer for the landed booster!) than lying there beam-on to the waves.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Semmel on 03/03/2017 07:58 am
First what we know:
* SpaceX stated they want to fly stages back from the barge to land (as unlikely as that seems)
* SpaceX want to land BFR on a launch cradle

Ok, complete, full force speculation mode from here.
Lets take both statements at face value and assume they still want to do this. So we accept the two above statements as axioms and do not question them. Following is a speculation run on what conclusion would follow given the above axioms.

It would make sense for SpaceX to be able to test the landing on launch mounts before doing it with BFR. So that would imply tests with F9.

How can they fly a stage from the barge back to land? Its not possible using the legs. They would have to land folded out, then fold them in again and than launch and land on land. But for folding the legs up before launch, F9 needs to sit on a launch mount on the barge. It cant get there without a large crane. Therefore, the only good option would be to land on the launch mount in the first place, not using the legs.

What about an alternative?
* SpaceX builds a launch/landing mount on the barge (I know I know, its not possible. Remember the full fledged speculation mode, ok?)
* The Roomba Garage olds a robot that brings RP1 and LOX lines to the first stage, hooks it up and refills it partly. The access ports are at the bottom, so it should be possible.
* The stage flies back to land and lands at LZ1

Obviously it would not start like that. The first try to land on a launch/land mount would be at LZ1. Once that works, it might be tried on the barge. It has been pointed out that the barge is not stable enough for a precision landing. However, the landing mount might have a homing beacon that the first stage targets in the last meters of descend instead of the GPS coordinates that are used now. It might be tough but I dont think impossible.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 03/03/2017 12:02 pm
IIRC, we've seen video of it cruising around in happy circles after the first successful landing many pages back..
Are we sure this (the victory lap) wasn't just an artifact of the drone's perhaps circling point of view?  I just looked at that video again, and it didn't seem all that certain the barge was making headway apart from keeping it's nose into the waves.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 03/03/2017 12:30 pm
So  next flight echo wont use the drone. Whats the next flight after that? SES first "flight proven" booster? It will try to land I assume. Maybe we will see roomba in action then.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 03/03/2017 01:50 pm
I'm with you until the "lift" part.

I think it pulls down.

You need the "wide stance" of the original legs, but because the rocket is tall, a stage can "walk" by temporarily losing traction on a 1-2 legs.

The Roomba can weigh as much as the entire rocket.  Have it pull down, so that the normal forces on the legs double (they are rated for a dynamic impact, so they'll be fine with the extra load), and still have traction left over at the Roomba itself.

Sort of like chaining the stage down with a vertical chain.  The chain itself doesn't add lateral holding forces, but the extra load on the legs sure does.

That all seems correct to me, except SpaceX practice seems to have been to install jacks and then pull the stage down onto them with binders. The legs are designed for a dynamic load, but maybe not tens of thousands of cycles of waves applying and unapplying a force to the side of the stage. If the new gizmo exists, I think it will follow previous practice. Center under stage, magnetize, grab hold downs, secure mechanically, jack stage up a bit so that the legs are doing the minimum in holding the rocket verticals.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/03/2017 02:06 pm
I'm with you until the "lift" part.

I think it pulls down.

You need the "wide stance" of the original legs, but because the rocket is tall, a stage can "walk" by temporarily losing traction on a 1-2 legs.

The Roomba can weigh as much as the entire rocket.  Have it pull down, so that the normal forces on the legs double (they are rated for a dynamic impact, so they'll be fine with the extra load), and still have traction left over at the Roomba itself.

Sort of like chaining the stage down with a vertical chain.  The chain itself doesn't add lateral holding forces, but the extra load on the legs sure does.

That all seems correct to me, except SpaceX practice seems to have been to install jacks and then pull the stage down onto them with binders. The legs are designed for a dynamic load, but maybe not tens of thousands of cycles of waves applying and unapplying a force to the side of the stage. If the new gizmo exists, I think it will follow previous practice. Center under stage, magnetize, grab hold downs, secure mechanically, jack stage up a bit so that the legs are doing the minimum in holding the rocket verticals.

Matthew
Yes, there are two ways to do it.

Jack up: Offload the legs and carry the overturning torque using the thrust structure and a much smaller footprint (requires a strong connection to the deck) or,

Winch down: Add load to the legs and rely on them.

The first method requires a magnet, a weld-down, or a much much heavier robot (heavy enough to stabilize the rocket using only  12' base)

The second method requires the legs to work till they reach shore.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 03/03/2017 02:09 pm
I "vote" for method 1.
Spacex is always trying to push the envelope and do more than what meets the eye.

EDIT:

BTW what is the mechanism of the TEL? The hold downs are on the pad Correct? How does the TEL line up the booster with the hold downs? Before the booster is on the launch pad what supports the vertical weight of the booster?

I am envisioning something like driving the TEL on to the barge and picking it up...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 03/03/2017 02:19 pm
BTW what is the mechanism of the TEL? The hold downs are on the pad Correct? How does the TEL line up the booster with the hold downs? Before the booster is on the launch pad what supports the vertical weight of the booster?

I am envisioning something like driving the TEL on to the barge and picking it up...

The holddowns are attached in four places to the octaweb, there's a passive cradle around the interstage area, and there's a clamp that goes around the second stage, right underneath the fairing.

A full pad deck + TE combo seems really overkill for transportation, especially since they just modified the old Shuttle transporter for that purpose.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 03/03/2017 02:54 pm
For automated securing, I think self drilling/tapping bolts would be the way to go. Would require a motorized spindle for each bolt, just rotate the fastener until the torque spikes, and it is set. I have not seen off the shelf bolts like this that are large enough to do the job, they might need to be custom made. The hole can be plugged and welded over after the stage is removed. Designing a bot to do reliable welding in that environment would be much more difficult.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 03/03/2017 04:24 pm
For automated securing, I think self drilling/tapping bolts would be the way to go. Would require a motorized spindle for each bolt, just rotate the fastener until the torque spikes, and it is set. I have not seen off the shelf bolts like this that are large enough to do the job, they might need to be custom made. The hole can be plugged and welded over after the stage is removed. Designing a bot to do reliable welding in that environment would be much more difficult.

Matthew
Stud welds are easy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lc-3ZtK5ps
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 03/03/2017 05:37 pm
Notice the ground clean spots on the beam.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/03/2017 07:09 pm
Notice the ground clean spots on the beam.

Matthew
And of course a robot  could not POSSIBLY be set up to first do a bit of grinding before it fired the stud welder.

(sorry, couldn't resist, that was sarcasm... more seriously if the deck can take these studs it can take some grinding)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/03/2017 07:15 pm
First what we know:
* SpaceX stated they want to fly stages back from the barge to land (as unlikely as that seems)
* SpaceX want to land BFR on a launch cradle

Ok, complete, full force speculation mode from here.
Lets take both statements at face value and assume they still want to do this. So we accept the two above statements as axioms and do not question them. Following is a speculation run on what conclusion would follow given the above axioms.

It would make sense for SpaceX to be able to test the landing on launch mounts before doing it with BFR. So that would imply tests with F9.

How can they fly a stage from the barge back to land? Its not possible using the legs. They would have to land folded out, then fold them in again and than launch and land on land. But for folding the legs up before launch, F9 needs to sit on a launch mount on the barge. It cant get there without a large crane. Therefore, the only good option would be to land on the launch mount in the first place, not using the legs.

What about an alternative?
* SpaceX builds a launch/landing mount on the barge (I know I know, its not possible. Remember the full fledged speculation mode, ok?)
* The Roomba Garage olds a robot that brings RP1 and LOX lines to the first stage, hooks it up and refills it partly. The access ports are at the bottom, so it should be possible.
* The stage flies back to land and lands at LZ1

Obviously it would not start like that. The first try to land on a launch/land mount would be at LZ1. Once that works, it might be tried on the barge. It has been pointed out that the barge is not stable enough for a precision landing. However, the landing mount might have a homing beacon that the first stage targets in the last meters of descend instead of the GPS coordinates that are used now. It might be tough but I dont think impossible.


This is just crazy enough to work. (accepting your axioms as written)

But I think maybe you're thinking about cradles too hard. Launch Mounts hold rockets. Instead of trying to land exactly in the launch mount, just land somewhere on the barge.... anywhere[1].... Be there, on legs for a bit. Wait. Something trundles up, has launch mount type fixture, grabs the spot on the bottom of the stage that is the place where the mount fixture holds it. 4 of these do this, and maybe also bring the fuel/lox lines with them... fuel up the rocket just enough, fold up the legs, launch.]2\

Or heck maybe don't even fold up the legs if you're not going to be flying that fast????  You kind of don't want to fly fast if what you have is an empty interstage without a nose cone cap anyway.... (Putting a cap up there requires the very crane we're trying to avoid needing) too much buffeting.

1 - somewhere kind of close to the center probably is helpful for tipping reasons, but since you're not trying to hit a mount, anywhere fairly close is close enough.
2 - details about how do you return the lox/fuel lines safely so they aren't fried by the stage leaving left as exercise
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/03/2017 07:16 pm
Notice the ground clean spots on the beam.

Matthew

It's actually very resilient to surface conditions.  The tip of the stud is a point, and it melts both sides of the material, then pushes the stud into the molten pool.  The ceramic shapes the outflow.  There's no remnant of what used to be the surface.

This is unlike, for example, spot welding, where the mixing is limited.  (and is still a very good weld, but is sensitive to surface conditions.)

Just like spot welding, btw, the machine monitors the current profile and tells you whether the resultant weld was good.  And they make auto-feeders of course.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/03/2017 07:19 pm
First what we know:
* SpaceX stated they want to fly stages back from the barge to land (as unlikely as that seems)
* SpaceX want to land BFR on a launch cradle

Ok, complete, full force speculation mode from here.
Lets take both statements at face value and assume they still want to do this. So we accept the two above statements as axioms and do not question them. Following is a speculation run on what conclusion would follow given the above axioms.

It would make sense for SpaceX to be able to test the landing on launch mounts before doing it with BFR. So that would imply tests with F9.

How can they fly a stage from the barge back to land? Its not possible using the legs. They would have to land folded out, then fold them in again and than launch and land on land. But for folding the legs up before launch, F9 needs to sit on a launch mount on the barge. It cant get there without a large crane. Therefore, the only good option would be to land on the launch mount in the first place, not using the legs.

What about an alternative?
* SpaceX builds a launch/landing mount on the barge (I know I know, its not possible. Remember the full fledged speculation mode, ok?)
* The Roomba Garage olds a robot that brings RP1 and LOX lines to the first stage, hooks it up and refills it partly. The access ports are at the bottom, so it should be possible.
* The stage flies back to land and lands at LZ1

Obviously it would not start like that. The first try to land on a launch/land mount would be at LZ1. Once that works, it might be tried on the barge. It has been pointed out that the barge is not stable enough for a precision landing. However, the landing mount might have a homing beacon that the first stage targets in the last meters of descend instead of the GPS coordinates that are used now. It might be tough but I dont think impossible.

I like this a lot.  In short, a lot of the difficulty of barge-relaunch goes away if a future version of F9 can fly legless and land in a cradle.

Cradle-landing on the barge will require closed-loop (homing) terminal guidance, to eliminate location uncertainties, but I think that's a piece of cake and will be surprised if the current algorithms are not ready to accept an external position-error signal.  (which will replace the existing GPS position-error value at the terminal approach phase)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gospacex on 03/03/2017 07:20 pm
Maybe electromagnets can be used to attach to the steel deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 03/03/2017 07:36 pm
First what we know:
* SpaceX stated they want to fly stages back from the barge to land (as unlikely as that seems)
* SpaceX want to land BFR on a launch cradle

Ok, complete, full force speculation mode from here.
Lets take both statements at face value and assume they still want to do this. So we accept the two above statements as axioms and do not question them. Following is a speculation run on what conclusion would follow given the above axioms.

It would make sense for SpaceX to be able to test the landing on launch mounts before doing it with BFR. So that would imply tests with F9.

How can they fly a stage from the barge back to land? Its not possible using the legs. They would have to land folded out, then fold them in again and than launch and land on land. But for folding the legs up before launch, F9 needs to sit on a launch mount on the barge. It cant get there without a large crane. Therefore, the only good option would be to land on the launch mount in the first place, not using the legs.

What about an alternative?
* SpaceX builds a launch/landing mount on the barge (I know I know, its not possible. Remember the full fledged speculation mode, ok?)
* The Roomba Garage olds a robot that brings RP1 and LOX lines to the first stage, hooks it up and refills it partly. The access ports are at the bottom, so it should be possible.
* The stage flies back to land and lands at LZ1

Obviously it would not start like that. The first try to land on a launch/land mount would be at LZ1. Once that works, it might be tried on the barge. It has been pointed out that the barge is not stable enough for a precision landing. However, the landing mount might have a homing beacon that the first stage targets in the last meters of descend instead of the GPS coordinates that are used now. It might be tough but I dont think impossible.

I like this a lot.  In short, a lot of the difficulty of barge-relaunch goes away if a future version of F9 can fly legless and land in a cradle.

Cradle-landing on the barge will require closed-loop (homing) terminal guidance, to eliminate location uncertainties, but I think that's a piece of cake and will be surprised if the current algorithms are not ready to accept an external position-error signal.  (which will replace the existing GPS position-error value at the terminal approach phase)

I have a feeling that stronger RCS is needed then GN2. I think that's why musk suggested this for ITS with the gox/gch4 RCS. Basically gimballing can get you real close but for that last foot or inch it is real nice to just translate sideways real quick without leaning. Maybe a stronger RCS will debut on falcon. It could be lighter than legs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/03/2017 07:43 pm
First what we know:
* SpaceX stated they want to fly stages back from the barge to land (as unlikely as that seems)
* SpaceX want to land BFR on a launch cradle

Ok, complete, full force speculation mode from here.
Lets take both statements at face value and assume they still want to do this. So we accept the two above statements as axioms and do not question them. Following is a speculation run on what conclusion would follow given the above axioms.

It would make sense for SpaceX to be able to test the landing on launch mounts before doing it with BFR. So that would imply tests with F9.

How can they fly a stage from the barge back to land? Its not possible using the legs. They would have to land folded out, then fold them in again and than launch and land on land. But for folding the legs up before launch, F9 needs to sit on a launch mount on the barge. It cant get there without a large crane. Therefore, the only good option would be to land on the launch mount in the first place, not using the legs.

What about an alternative?
* SpaceX builds a launch/landing mount on the barge (I know I know, its not possible. Remember the full fledged speculation mode, ok?)
* The Roomba Garage olds a robot that brings RP1 and LOX lines to the first stage, hooks it up and refills it partly. The access ports are at the bottom, so it should be possible.
* The stage flies back to land and lands at LZ1

Obviously it would not start like that. The first try to land on a launch/land mount would be at LZ1. Once that works, it might be tried on the barge. It has been pointed out that the barge is not stable enough for a precision landing. However, the landing mount might have a homing beacon that the first stage targets in the last meters of descend instead of the GPS coordinates that are used now. It might be tough but I dont think impossible.

I like this a lot.  In short, a lot of the difficulty of barge-relaunch goes away if a future version of F9 can fly legless and land in a cradle.

Cradle-landing on the barge will require closed-loop (homing) terminal guidance, to eliminate location uncertainties, but I think that's a piece of cake and will be surprised if the current algorithms are not ready to accept an external position-error signal.  (which will replace the existing GPS position-error value at the terminal approach phase)

I have a feeling that stronger RCS is needed then GN2. I think that's why musk suggested this for ITS with the gox/gch4 RCS. Basically gimballing can get you real close but for that last foot or inch it is real nice to just translate sideways real quick without leaning. Maybe a stronger RCS will debut on falcon. It could be lighter than legs.

Agreed. A hypothetical legless F9 will likely have RCS at the base, and maybe not even GN2.  But that will still weigh less than legs...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 03/03/2017 08:00 pm

I like this a lot.  In short, a lot of the difficulty of barge-relaunch goes away if a future version of F9 can fly legless and land in a cradle.


There is no future version of the F9.  Development stops at Block 5 and then all the design engineers move over to ITS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 03/03/2017 08:04 pm
And as cool as legless cradle landing would be I have to agree with Jim that is best left for ITS when it flys.
Without legless cradle and flyback I think we are left with anyway to streamline moving the stage from landing to launch pad.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/03/2017 08:13 pm
You're not reading the instructions.

This was about the hypothetical engineering proposition that a legless F9 would make barge flyback much easier.

We all know about SpaceX saying block 5 is the final version.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Semmel on 03/03/2017 09:15 pm
There is no future version of the F9.  Development stops at Block 5 and then all the design engineers move over to ITS.

I know. But I would think a software update for the landing sequence and a homing sensor at the bottom do not qualify for a new 'block' of F9. There is nothing in the proposal that would not be possible with the current 'block' version.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/03/2017 10:08 pm
There is no future version of the F9.  Development stops at Block 5 and then all the design engineers move over to ITS.

I know. But I would think a software update for the landing sequence and a homing sensor at the bottom do not qualify for a new 'block' of F9. There is nothing in the proposal that would not be possible with the current 'block' version.

Plus, I remember the consternation the same people had when we proposed that there will be future versions beyond 1.1.   And then beyond 1.2

So maybe block 5 is "final version for now".
Or maybe block 5 is "legless ready" and flying legless is an option they can later try without changing the design. (so the design is ready to accept some RCS at the base)
Or maybe legless experiments will never become mainstream but rather be risk mitigation trials as part of ITS development. (In which case legless landings can be done on land)

The point is, Semmel's observation makes a lot of sense - there's a lot of synergy between barge-flyback and cradle landing.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 03/03/2017 11:06 pm
This hypothetical nonsense about landing cradles/launch mounts on the barge isn't really about the barge anymore. Exactly why I asked - a number of weeks ago - that someone create an ITS landing cradle thread. And someone else agreed and said thread was born.

Yet here we are again ...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 03/03/2017 11:13 pm
There is no future version of the F9.  Development stops at Block 5 and then all the design engineers move over to ITS.

I know. But I would think a software update for the landing sequence and a homing sensor at the bottom do not qualify for a new 'block' of F9. There is nothing in the proposal that would not be possible with the current 'block' version.

Yes, it does.  The current vehicle can't make pinpoint landings
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DAZ on 03/03/2017 11:17 pm
The falcon 9 block 5 used for manned and DOD launches may have to freeze but that doesn't mean that the software and bolt on parts for non-manned and DOD flights would have to be included in a block 5 freeze.

If SpaceX was going to experiment with the falcon 9 to land in some kind of a landing cradle it would need to put something on to the bottom of the falcon 9 obviously. A straightforward way to accomplish this (as you obviously will not be using the legs) would be to develop some kind of a kit that could bolt on in place of the landing legs. It would seem that in this landing cradle kit you could also place the thrusters needed to guide the bottom of the rocket into the cradle. You would obviously also need to modify the software for such tests for that software would only be used on these test rockets not on the above-mentioned block 5 frozen rockets.

This way you could freeze the falcon 9 at the block 5 and continue to do landing experiments if SpaceX thinks that this is desirable or needed.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/04/2017 02:49 am
Well, in the context of "flyback from barge as per one isolated comment by Musk"....

We haven't seen the mythological block 5 yet, and do not know what they loaded into it, and what "options" it can accept.

I'm fine leaving it at that.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Semmel on 03/04/2017 09:21 am
This hypothetical nonsense about landing cradles/launch mounts on the barge isn't really about the barge anymore. Exactly why I asked - a number of weeks ago - that someone create an ITS landing cradle thread. And someone else agreed and said thread was born.

Yet here we are again ...

The connection is the interpretation of what comes out of the roomba garage. A robot grabbing the stage from below and securing it is certainly a possibility. But it does not fit the usual SpaceX 'synergy'. So I bet we are missing something. My proposal was an attempt to provide an alternative interpretation. I agree its crazy and relies on blind belief of the old statement of flying back a stage from the barge. But its not about the landing cradle. Its just a component.

Well, in the context of "flyback from barge as per one isolated comment by Musk"....

We haven't seen the mythological block 5 yet, and do not know what they loaded into it, and what "options" it can accept.

I'm fine leaving it at that.

I am looking forwards to it :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/04/2017 03:07 pm
This hypothetical nonsense about landing cradles/launch mounts on the barge isn't really about the barge anymore. Exactly why I asked - a number of weeks ago - that someone create an ITS landing cradle thread. And someone else agreed and said thread was born.

Yet here we are again ...

The connection is the interpretation of what comes out of the roomba garage. A robot grabbing the stage from below and securing it is certainly a possibility. But it does not fit the usual SpaceX 'synergy'. So I bet we are missing something. My proposal was an attempt to provide an alternative interpretation. I agree its crazy and relies on blind belief of the old statement of flying back a stage from the barge. But its not about the landing cradle. Its just a component.

Well, in the context of "flyback from barge as per one isolated comment by Musk"....

We haven't seen the mythological block 5 yet, and do not know what they loaded into it, and what "options" it can accept.

I'm fine leaving it at that.

I am looking forwards to it :)
Ah.  I'd be hugely surprised if the robot is anything but a "secure in place and maybe service" device.

A landing cradle would be much larger, wouldn't be mobile, and might be preceded by an on shore cradle.

IMO
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 03/04/2017 03:19 pm

Ah.  I'd be hugely surprised if the robot is anything but a "secure in place and maybe service" device.

A landing cradle would be much larger, wouldn't be mobile, and might be preceded by an on shore cradle.

IMO

Spacex will surprise you!  :)
So far every new gadget or operation has surprised me.
But I don't think it will be landing cradle. More like something more than securing.
What is everybody's opinion as to how much crane handling slows things down?
I know they crane handle at mcgregor, KSC,
hawthorne?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 03/04/2017 03:58 pm

Ah.  I'd be hugely surprised if the robot is anything but a "secure in place and maybe service" device.

A landing cradle would be much larger, wouldn't be mobile, and might be preceded by an on shore cradle.

IMO

Spacex will surprise you!  :)
So far every new gadget or operation has surprised me.
But I don't think it will be landing cradle. More like something more than securing.
What is everybody's opinion as to how much crane handling slows things down?
I know they crane handle at mcgregor, KSC,
hawthorne?

SpaceX has used cranes to move their boosters at every location they've had a Falcon 9, although I'm unsure about VAFB. I would be really surprised if crane operations were the long pole in port recovery operations.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RonM on 03/04/2017 04:31 pm

Ah.  I'd be hugely surprised if the robot is anything but a "secure in place and maybe service" device.

A landing cradle would be much larger, wouldn't be mobile, and might be preceded by an on shore cradle.

IMO

Spacex will surprise you!  :)
So far every new gadget or operation has surprised me.
But I don't think it will be landing cradle. More like something more than securing.
What is everybody's opinion as to how much crane handling slows things down?
I know they crane handle at mcgregor, KSC,
hawthorne?

SpaceX has used cranes to move their boosters at every location they've had a Falcon 9, although I'm unsure about VAFB. I would be really surprised if crane operations were the long pole in port recovery operations.

Agreed. Simplest way to get large cargo from ship to shore is a crane.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 03/04/2017 06:03 pm
For a high launch cadence they need a fast turnaround of the ASDS. That needs fast securing of the stage, secure enough for fast towing. Getting the stage off is secondary, they are getting quicker at it already. Also preparing it for transport. That is not on the critical path.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 03/04/2017 09:11 pm
The falcon 9 block 5 used for manned and DOD launches may have to freeze but that doesn't mean that the software and bolt on parts for non-manned and DOD flights would have to be included in a block 5 freeze.


Yes, it does.  Block 5 is not for manned and DOD launches.  It is so Spacex can divert resources from F9 to ITS
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DAZ on 03/05/2017 12:19 am
The falcon 9 block 5 used for manned and DOD launches may have to freeze but that doesn't mean that the software and bolt on parts for non-manned and DOD flights would have to be included in a block 5 freeze.


Yes, it does. Block 5 is not for manned and DOD launches. It is so SpaceX can divert resources from F9 to ITS

There can be more than one reason for doing something.

I was replying, to the general trend of the thread, that SpaceX would need to freeze the falcon 9 block 5 in order to meet its contract commitments for DOD and NASA’s upcoming manned flights so that would be the reason why SpaceX would stop its experimental landings. I was pointing out that I did not believe that SpaceX would have to stop experimenting just because it froze the falcon 9 at the block 5 state.

I do not believe that I said that SpaceX would continue expending a lot of resources to the type of landing test that was suggested. The block 5 build is just the next progression in the incremental improvements and changes to the falcon 9. It appears it will incorporate all of the changes that both NASA and that DOD will require for their contracts. If this is the case then this would appear to be the logical place to freeze the design. I too believe that SpaceX will be diverting most of its resources to the ITS project.

There are many possible projects that SpaceX could use its resources on but won’t because they don’t contribute to SpaceX’s core goal of going to Mars. Expending resources to improve their landing performance from feet to inches would not appear to be necessary at this time.

On the other hand on some of the CommX threads, they are talking about the possibility of an unprecedented number of Falcon Heavy launches. CommX is likely the primary way that SpaceX will pay for the ITS project. If this is the case then the possible improvements of a cradle landing system could still be a possibility but not as a test of the ITS system but for the improvements it would give to the falcon 9.

The bottom line is that SpaceX will make the business decisions based on how they support their primary goal of getting to Mars.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 03/05/2017 01:25 am
It appears it will incorporate all of the changes that both NASA and that DOD will require for their contracts

No, it will incorporate mostly the changes that Spacex requires for an efficient flight rate.  NASA and DOD changes are secondary.

I too believe that SpaceX will be diverting most of its resources to the ITS project.

I wasn't stating a belief.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/05/2017 01:51 am
How's about a "Block 5" thread?
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42465.0
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DAZ on 03/05/2017 01:24 pm
It appears it will incorporate all of the changes that both NASA and that DOD will require for their contracts

No, it will incorporate mostly the changes that Spacex requires for an efficient flight rate.  NASA and DOD changes are secondary.

I too believe that SpaceX will be diverting most of its resources to the ITS project.

I wasn't stating a belief.

Again it can be more than one thing and in this case are not mutually exclusive so it probably is both.

It is just a belief, even for Elon Musk, until it is after-the-fact when it becomes history.

This is becoming just argumentative about mostly semantics so let's just move on.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 03/05/2017 05:24 pm

It is just a belief, even for Elon Musk, until it is after-the-fact when it becomes history.


No, it is his directive.  That is why there is the system of block changes
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Space Ghost 1962 on 03/05/2017 05:58 pm
The point here is to not change the vehicle anymore. To accumulate flight history of the same, to get a baseline.

Need this for many reasons. And we wouldn't be taking about this if F9 development was like Atlas/Vulcan. Not.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/05/2017 06:11 pm
The point here is to not change the vehicle anymore. To accumulate flight history of the same, to get a baseline.

Need this for many reasons. And we wouldn't be taking about this if F9 development was like Atlas/Vulcan. Not.

There's agreement that everyone wants to move on to BFR and BFS, F9B5 will be "it".

What we don't know is what changes will be incorporated into F9B5, and how many of them are "optional".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Space Ghost 1962 on 03/05/2017 09:41 pm
The point here is to not change the vehicle anymore. To accumulate flight history of the same, to get a baseline.

Need this for many reasons. And we wouldn't be taking about this if F9 development was like Atlas/Vulcan. Not.

There's agreement that everyone wants to move on to BFR and BFS, F9B5 will be "it".

What we don't know is what changes will be incorporated into F9B5, and how many of them are "optional".
Not needed.

The basic vehicle and its operations stay the same. That's the point. And the success of 5.

So ... how to measure in the public? Mission success, flight history, processing time to reuse, amount of reuse, flight rate. Price point of mission?

Unlike past iterations what you'll see will (hopefully) not change much. Boring. Boring is good.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/05/2017 10:16 pm
For a high launch cadence they need a fast turnaround of the ASDS. That needs fast securing of the stage, secure enough for fast towing. Getting the stage off is secondary, they are getting quicker at it already. Also preparing it for transport. That is not on the critical path.

Unfortunately, you can't beat the laws of physics:  (a) max towing speed will depend upon the sea state at the time, but is never going to be much more than 5 kts in flat water simply by design (b) the tug must stay out of the designated impact zone (10 miles?) until the landed stage has been safed, which is a long way to travel at sea in a tug, even in a hurry and (c) they have a looong way to go to get to port.

One option mooted a couple of threads ago was to not tow it at all:  instead hire/buy one of Dockwise's semi-submersible lift ships to pick the barge and landed stage up at sea and take the whole lot into port at high(er) speed - but it's unclear if adding a few knots to the return speed would really help speed up the process all that much in the overall scheme of things.

ISTM that now they've got the landing accuracy and repeatability down to a few meters, once the launch cadence goes up they'd be better off replacing the ASDSs with a permanently-anchored platform (like an oil production platform) out there both large enough and stable enough to allow at-sea processing and fly-back to launch site. ..and a holiday retreat for Elon and family when not otherwise in use.  They could call it the "Falcon's Nest".. :)
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/06/2017 12:11 am
The point here is to not change the vehicle anymore. To accumulate flight history of the same, to get a baseline.

Need this for many reasons. And we wouldn't be taking about this if F9 development was like Atlas/Vulcan. Not.

There's agreement that everyone wants to move on to BFR and BFS, F9B5 will be "it".

What we don't know is what changes will be incorporated into F9B5, and how many of them are "optional".
Not needed.

The basic vehicle and its operations stay the same. That's the point. And the success of 5.

So ... how to measure in the public? Mission success, flight history, processing time to reuse, amount of reuse, flight rate. Price point of mission?

Unlike past iterations what you'll see will (hopefully) not change much. Boring. Boring is good.

Boring means F9 1.0...

Remember that?

I think what we want is "eventually boring", as long as there's something else brewing...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jcc on 03/06/2017 12:16 am
For a high launch cadence they need a fast turnaround of the ASDS. That needs fast securing of the stage, secure enough for fast towing. Getting the stage off is secondary, they are getting quicker at it already. Also preparing it for transport. That is not on the critical path.

Unfortunately, you can't beat the laws of physics:  (a) max towing speed will depend upon the sea state at the time, but is never going to be much more than 5 kts in flat water simply by design (b) the tug must stay out of the designated impact zone (10 miles?) until the landed stage has been safed, which is a long way to travel at sea in a tug, even in a hurry and (c) they have a looong way to go to get to port.

One option mooted a couple of threads ago was to not tow it at all:  instead hire/buy one of Dockwise's semi-submersible lift ships to pick the barge and landed stage up at sea and take the whole lot into port at high(er) speed - but it's unclear if adding a few knots to the return speed would really help speed up the process all that much in the overall scheme of things.

ISTM that now they've got the landing accuracy and repeatability down to a few meters, once the launch cadence goes up they'd be better off replacing the ASDSs with a permanently-anchored platform (like an oil production platform) out there both large enough and stable enough to allow at-sea processing and fly-back to launch site. ..and a holiday retreat for Elon and family when not otherwise in use.  They could call it the "Falcon's Nest".. :)
 

The problem with a permanently anchored platform is the optimal location to land the stage changes with the particular mission, so there is an advantage to a very mobile platform.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 03/06/2017 01:30 am
...
Boring means F9 1.0...

Remember that?

I think what we want is "eventually boring", as long as there's something else brewing...
HSF, Red Dragon, ITS and CommX are brewing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/06/2017 01:42 am
...
Boring means F9 1.0...

Remember that?

I think what we want is "eventually boring", as long as there's something else brewing...
HSF, Red Dragon, ITS and CommX are brewing.


eeeeeyup!   :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jcc on 03/07/2017 12:14 am
...
Boring means F9 1.0...

Remember that?

I think what we want is "eventually boring", as long as there's something else brewing...
HSF, Red Dragon, ITS and CommX are brewing.


eeeeeyup!   :)

Even boring is no longer boring.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 03/10/2017 05:54 am
 The most important takeaway from this and many other threads lately is how often and forcefully Jim has stated SpaceX's intention to start on ITS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/10/2017 06:05 am
The most important takeaway from this and many other threads lately is how often and forcefully Jim has stated SpaceX's intention to start on ITS.

Uh oh..  ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 03/10/2017 06:35 am
I note with amusement that if you outfit the barge with the same number of raptors as ITS, it can very comfortably fly with nearly a full nominal cargo load.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 03/10/2017 05:19 pm
The most important takeaway from this and many other threads lately is how often and forcefully Jim has stated SpaceX's intention to start on ITS.

Uh oh..  ::)

#ADSD ATTENTION DEFICIT SQUIRREL DISORDER
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSUXXzN26zg
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/11/2017 12:17 am
Unfortunately, you can't beat the laws of physics:  (a) max towing speed will depend upon the sea state at the time, but is never going to be much more than 5 kts in flat water simply by design (b) the tug must stay out of the designated impact zone (10 miles?) until the landed stage has been safed, which is a long way to travel at sea in a tug, even in a hurry and (c) they have a looong way to go to get to port.

One option mooted a couple of threads ago was to not tow it at all:  instead hire/buy one of Dockwise's semi-submersible lift ships to pick the barge and landed stage up at sea and take the whole lot into port at high(er) speed - but it's unclear if adding a few knots to the return speed would really help speed up the process all that much in the overall scheme of things.

A few threads back I also was playing with the notion of whether it's possible to get a barge or barge like vessel "on plane" to get higher speeds and I'm thinking that idea is just as wrong now as it was when I first floated it....

Quote

They could call it the "Falcon's Nest".. :)
 

That name is taken :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 03/13/2017 12:02 pm
OCISLY last weekend + some activity at GO Searcher
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 03/13/2017 12:11 pm
Roomba tent is gone + some massive crane is ready to put Roomba on OCISLY
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 03/13/2017 01:42 pm
Is it Go Quest or Go Searcher, which is supposedly tasked with fairing research activities ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 03/13/2017 03:31 pm
So it appears the door swings up, yes?

(or does a true garage door motion?  That would be too funny...)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 03/13/2017 04:46 pm
So it appears the door swings up, yes?

(or does a true garage door motion?  That would be too funny...)

Will be similar to a california type garage door, but not quite the same, I believe.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/14/2017 02:17 am
Looking big picture here, there's been three ASDS Discussion threads already, a support ship activities thread, numerous design threads and now the Roomba thread may take a path of it's own..

Mods, perhaps it's time for an entire Section devoted to SpaceX Marine Activities?!?

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/14/2017 02:23 am
Is it Go Quest or Go Searcher, which is supposedly tasked with fairing research activities ?

Searcher.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/14/2017 10:29 am
Looking big picture here, there's been three ASDS Discussion threads already, a support ship activities thread, numerous design threads and now the Roomba thread may take a path of it's own..

Mods, perhaps it's time for an entire Section devoted to SpaceX Marine Activities?!?

3-5 concurrent active threads isn't enough for a whole section I don't think. This is NOT an invitation to start 19 minutia ones[1]. nor is it an invitation to meta discuss whether a section is needed or not[1]. But this is data the mods take into account and it'll be discussed and if the topic blossoms enough to warrant it, then maybe.  IMNSHO[2] subject to overrule by the Boss Man[3], not yet.  I do see a trend to maybe someday.

1 - I know how you people think... [5]
1 - I know how you people think... [4][5]
2 - Not so humble ... kinda goes without sayin' when talking about me, I think?[5]
3 - I don't always know how Mr. Bergin thinks.[5]
4 - guess I should have reused that footnote... They even had the same tail numbers, what was I thinking....[5]
5 - given that every footnote includes the word "think" I might be overthinking my use of footnotes? [5][6]
6 - naaaa.. that's crazy talk! crazy thinking, I think....[5] You can never overuse footnotes [2]. Never..... Well, almost never [3]. Watch Chris delete away my carefully crafted[2] footnote humor on me...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 03/14/2017 10:52 am
You hit a self-referential recursion there with [5] Lar, now my head is spinning and I can't get off your footnote... Chris might have to do a mercy deletion.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/14/2017 10:58 am
You hit a self-referential recursion there with [5] Lar, now my head is spinning and I can't get off your footnote... Chris might have to do a mercy deletion.
That was deliberate (if you could see the edit history you'd know I put it in late)[1]... Consider it a test, if you can't parse it successfully you may not be a computer scientist (or just not have a big enough stack? Or your OS doesn't have a proper tail recursion detection/exit algorithm, consider an upgrade)  Don't give Chris any ideas, that's what the mod button is for.

... aaaannnnd... back on topic:

What's the best guestimate at this time about whether they really are going to try to use Roomba on SES-10? Will they have all the garage door mods finished in time? This isn't L2 so public data only, don't get anyone fired.

1 - back in the days of LUGNet[2] I was notorious for footnote humor. And for insisting that every poll include a "this poll is flawed" option.  I think I've grown up some[3]
2 - do your own research on what it is, if you don't know.
3 - YMMV
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 03/14/2017 11:17 am

Mods, perhaps it's time for an entire Section devoted to SpaceX Marine Activities?!?


The internal nickname is apparently "DockX." ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/14/2017 09:32 pm

Mods, perhaps it's time for an entire Section devoted to SpaceX Marine Activities?!?

The internal nickname is apparently "DockX." ;)

And reading between the footnotes of Lar's penultimate post, it looks like it got blown out of the water[1].

1 - For now.. but, like Titanic, may someday rise again from the murky depths of the NSF archives. [2]
2 - Like the man said.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 03/14/2017 09:52 pm
For now.

It's not out of the question, especially if they get to having several fairing recovery ships, several ASDS' that need tracking the same way the stages do, multiple roomba versions to track, etc.  We're good at that cataloging and tracking thing. So maybe if things continue.... Especially after Boca Chica comes on line, it will be fascinating to see what they do in Brownsville, especially if the beltline doesn't get built, the port is on the wrong side of the channel from the launch site I think....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/17/2017 12:01 am
It's been a while since I last looked, but whilst looking for some info for a reply in that other thread I noticed McDonough Marine have updated their web site.  For anyone who might be a bit new to all this barge stuff, their "catalog" is a good read:

http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/mcd-8.5x11_catalog_v13-perfectbound.pdf (http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/mcd-8.5x11_catalog_v13-perfectbound.pdf)

Especially pages 10 & 18.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 03/17/2017 02:29 am
There's a lot of GREAT info in there.  I did a doubletake on page 21... What is that, a Falcon 7? :)  Page 39 looks to me like a steam generator for a nuclear power plant.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 03/18/2017 04:34 pm
Now we know how the garage opens.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IanThePineapple on 03/18/2017 04:36 pm
Is the bot on the deck yet?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 03/18/2017 04:53 pm
Is it possible that the opening mechanism is a chain puller? Thought from the design of the hinge it would be hydraulic rams.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 03/18/2017 05:07 pm
Is it possible that the opening mechanism is a chain puller? Thought from the design of the hinge it would be hydraulic rams.

Matthew
I thought this might be a ram, and that the chain was a secondary safety, like on a trailer hitch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sfxtd on 03/18/2017 05:12 pm
Is it possible that the opening mechanism is a chain puller? Thought from the design of the hinge it would be hydraulic rams.

Matthew

I think the chain is temporary to secure the door until the actuator is installed, but a chain motor actuator is a possibility.

Ahh the wonders and frustrations of watching a private company do its thing without having to tell us anything until it suits them.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sfxtd on 03/18/2017 05:30 pm
Is it possible that the opening mechanism is a chain puller? Thought from the design of the hinge it would be hydraulic rams.

Matthew
I thought this might be a ram, and that the chain was a secondary safety, like on a trailer hitch.


From the angle I am speculating that that is a mechanism for adjusting the relative positions of the door and hinge point, either for alignment or balance.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 03/19/2017 11:11 am
So the door pivots about the midpoint. Makes sense as the the opening effort is significantly reduced. However it also puts a constraint on the height of what can pass through, though based of the "spy shots" of the potential bot I think it would clear.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: LouScheffer on 03/19/2017 12:49 pm

Ahh the wonders and frustrations of watching a private company do its thing without having to tell us anything until it suits them.
This sort of technical detective work can be fascinating, and has real-world counterparts in technical military intelligence. 

If you like this, you'd probably love reading R.V. Jones  Most Secret War (https://www.amazon.com/Secret-British-Scientific-Intelligence-1939-1945/dp/B00102C30W/ref=sr_1_3), an excellent book about the British in WW-II trying to deduce the details of Axis technology from sparse clues.  (Earlier editions of the same book were called "The Wizard War".  I suspect the name was changed since it kept getting filed in the wrong section in bookstores...)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 03/19/2017 01:17 pm
Could the garage door, once it has pivoted open, slide upward on internal tracks to make it flush with the garage roof? Assuming the "xoomba" needs more room to get through the opening.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: obi-wan on 03/19/2017 07:38 pm
Departing Port Canaveral right now - the gizmo is on the deck of OCISLY - four jack stands on a much larger octagonal base right down on the deck - I got a lot of photos on my good camera, but not on the phone, so I'll post a link when I get back at the end of the week if no one else beats me to it. Wanted to send this while still in cell phone range
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Bargemanos on 03/19/2017 08:49 pm
Departing Port Canaveral right now - the gizmo is on the deck of OCISLY - four jack stands on a much larger octagonal base right down on the deck - I got a lot of photos on my good camera, but not on the phone, so I'll post a link when I get back at the end of the week if no one else beats me to it. Wanted to send this while still in cell phone range

Ohhh the cruelty.. ;) :P


Even the worst picture on your phone will do... ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: randomstonerfromaus on 03/20/2017 10:48 pm
From /r/Spacex, An aerial photo of the roomba on the deck of OCISLY
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 03/21/2017 12:39 am
this is so cool

sorry for ever doubting the roomba speculators
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 03/21/2017 12:43 am
I think something urgent happened right before this picture was taken. Notice that there are several guys apparently running towards it...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 03/21/2017 01:36 am
From /r/Spacex, An aerial photo of the roomba on the deck of OCISLY

Wow!

Okay, well, one thing I think we can tell for sure; it exists!  8)

Looks like those who were saying it'll be one unit were right, while those (like me) who were postulating 4 (one for each leg) were wrong.

It looks very heavily built. Enough to secure the F9 without attaching to the deck? 

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 03/21/2017 02:15 am
I think something urgent happened right before this picture was taken. Notice that there are several guys apparently running towards it...
Maybe they didn't want the Roomba photographed and were trying to get it covered?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 03/21/2017 02:34 am
I think something urgent happened right before this picture was taken. Notice that there are several guys apparently running towards it...

That seems like a bit of an overstatement. I see one person possibly jogging, one definitely walking, and two standing around working on it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Bargemanos on 03/21/2017 06:56 am
It look like the already made a few spins around the deck with it
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 03/21/2017 07:49 am
It look like the already made a few spins around the deck with it

I thought that at first, but then I noticed the tire marks (tread pattern) match the yellow cherry picker at the far right. I wonder if it might have been holding a test rig of some sort?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 03/21/2017 09:21 am
That thing is both huge and beautiful !!!
Looks like we are in for a treat on the SES10 launch !
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SmallKing on 03/21/2017 01:14 pm
Elsbeth iii is out of port now
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 03/21/2017 03:08 pm
Elsbeth iii is out of port now

Online sources I just now checked show OCISLY missing from the port webcam...  :o
and Elsbeth III and Go Searcher out just offshore maneuvering...  8)
Must be practice & Roomba drills...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 03/21/2017 07:29 pm
Elsbeth iii is out of port now

Online sources I just now checked show OCISLY missing from the port webcam...  :o
and Elsbeth III and Go Searcher out just offshore maneuvering...  8)
Must be practice & Roomba drills...  ;)

Update...
Go Searcher back in port and Elsbeth III is headed in... as per MarineTraffic...  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/22/2017 03:32 am
How long are those boats out for? How many crew on each? And what is the purpose of each?

Thanks!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 03/22/2017 09:07 am
How long are those boats out for? How many crew on each? And what is the purpose of each?

somebody correct me if I'm wong but :
Turns out I was not completely right. See Jim's details below.

Elsbeth III is the one that tows OCISLY and carries the "securing the booster" activities after landing, along with Go Quest. Probably also some tracking/comms going on to some degree.
Go Searcher is alegedly the ship that works on the fairing activities. So far we did never see it coming back with fairing on board, though (even debris). So no real clues about its exact missions. I think we, however, have seen it perform some patterns that look like sonar reasearch of areas, that kind of stuff. It may very well be that all 3 ships just look after OCISLY, in reality. We don't know.
As for the crews ... no idea !
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 03/22/2017 09:45 am
Did this article get posted here before?  It appears to have been written shortly after the CRS-8 landing.

http://truesouthmarine.com/uncategorized/the-spacex-autonomous-spaceport-drone-ship/

Edit, for Kabloona: This is not to say this article has anything in it that we didn't already know at that time.  It was simply an article I hadn't seen before, from a different perspective than our usual here.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 03/22/2017 11:51 am
How long are those boats out for? How many crew on each? And what is the purpose of each?

somebody correct me if I'm wong but :

Elsbeth III is the one that tows OCISLY and carries the "securing the booster" activities after landing,

It only tows, it does nothing else.  Go Quest has the comms, the people, the equipment, etc for dealing with the booster.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/22/2017 02:16 pm
Did this article get posted here before?  It appears to have been written shortly after the CRS-8 landing.

http://truesouthmarine.com/uncategorized/the-spacex-autonomous-spaceport-drone-ship/

Which appears to have been sourced (almost?) entirely from material researched and reported on this site. Just sayin...nothing we didn't already know. Plus some incorrect statements, ie the F9 and the ASDS do not "talk" to each other.

But, thanks to Capt Jeff for reading NSF.  ;-)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 03/22/2017 04:26 pm
Elsbeth tows the ASDS from the front.  In the harbor they use a line at front and back for better control, as seen on various harbor cams. Although usually a random "on call" tug for the port will do this role, I believe that Go Quest can also do guide the aft if needed, for example when at sea far from port.  This is based on marine track showing "formation sailing"; I don't think we've ever directly seen this.  Perhaps Go Quest is sailing in formation for some other reason.

Go Quest has all the comm gear and manpower to service the ASDS and the landed stage.  You can see the SpaceX containers on its aft deck.

Go Searcher is a bit of a mystery. Its deck is relatively clear, so speculation is that it is helping in recovery tasks, and might in fact be the fairing "searcher".  But for all we know it might be out there simply providing additional crew accommodations or fire-fighting capability or backup or something.  Because of the absence of SpaceX containers aboard, it's not likely to have a direct role in telemetry or comms.

The final element in the fleet is aircraft. Elon's personal jet has gone out to the recovery area in the past to receive telemetry and image the landing.  A NASA plane was also used to do long-range thermal imaging of retropropulsion.  We keep closer tabs on the marine sites than the aviation sites, so it's possible that these (or other) aviation resources have been deployed more often than we think.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 03/22/2017 05:57 pm
Did this article get posted here before?  It appears to have been written shortly after the CRS-8 landing.

http://truesouthmarine.com/uncategorized/the-spacex-autonomous-spaceport-drone-ship/

Edit, for Kabloona: This is not to say this article has anything in it that we didn't already know at that time.  It was simply an article I hadn't seen before, from a different perspective than our usual here.

Sorry if I sounded too critical. Yes, nice to see others out there are interested.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/23/2017 12:33 am
Did this article get posted here before?  It appears to have been written shortly after the CRS-8 landing.

http://truesouthmarine.com/uncategorized/the-spacex-autonomous-spaceport-drone-ship/

Which appears to have been sourced (almost?) entirely from material researched and reported on this site. Just sayin...nothing we didn't already know. Plus some incorrect statements, ie the F9 and the ASDS do not "talk" to each other.

Nice find!  To add to the incorrect statements list: "enhanced hull rigidity" - to the best of our collective knowledge, they did nothing of the sort.  Nor should they need to.  These barges are extremely sturdy and impressively tough and if they weren't I'm sure SpaceX would have chosen someone else to supply their fleet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: deruch on 03/23/2017 12:57 am
Did this article get posted here before?  It appears to have been written shortly after the CRS-8 landing.

http://truesouthmarine.com/uncategorized/the-spacex-autonomous-spaceport-drone-ship/

Which appears to have been sourced (almost?) entirely from material researched and reported on this site. Just sayin...nothing we didn't already know. Plus some incorrect statements, ie the F9 and the ASDS do not "talk" to each other.

Nice find!  To add to the incorrect statements list: "enhanced hull rigidity" - to the best of our collective knowledge, they did nothing of the sort.  Nor should they need to.  These barges are extremely sturdy and impressively tough and if they weren't I'm sure SpaceX would have chosen someone else to supply their fleet.
This may have happened as part of their repairs after the SES-9 "hard landing" when they had to replace a section of the deck and presumably some damaged areas underneath.  Alternatively, it could be a misinterpretation of some of that work. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/23/2017 01:08 am
Did this article get posted here before?  It appears to have been written shortly after the CRS-8 landing.

http://truesouthmarine.com/uncategorized/the-spacex-autonomous-spaceport-drone-ship/

Which appears to have been sourced (almost?) entirely from material researched and reported on this site. Just sayin...nothing we didn't already know. Plus some incorrect statements, ie the F9 and the ASDS do not "talk" to each other.

Nice find!  To add to the incorrect statements list: "enhanced hull rigidity" - to the best of our collective knowledge, they did nothing of the sort.  Nor should they need to.  These barges are extremely sturdy and impressively tough and if they weren't I'm sure SpaceX would have chosen someone else to supply their fleet.
This may have happened as part of their repairs after the SES-9 "hard landing" when they had to replace a section of the deck and presumably some damaged areas underneath.  Alternatively, it could be a misinterpretation of some of that work.

Hmm.. To me, "enhanced hull rigidity" means beefing up the hull in various places from stem to stern - not just the like-for-like deck structural repair we saw.  It would require a complete re-survey of the vessel and I can't see any evidence of this in the ABS records on-line.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, only that I, personally, have not seen any evidence of this in the pics available on-line and, if they did, would be interested to know why.  Agreed it's most likely a misinterpretation of the work done..

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: obi-wan on 03/24/2017 02:41 pm
Departing Port Canaveral right now - the gizmo is on the deck of OCISLY - four jack stands on a much larger octagonal base right down on the deck - I got a lot of photos on my good camera, but not on the phone, so I'll post a link when I get back at the end of the week if no one else beats me to it. Wanted to send this while still in cell phone range

Ohhh the cruelty.. ;) :P


Even the worst picture on your phone will do... ;D

I posted the link to the photos under the "Roomba" thread in SpaceX General - thought that would be more appropriate than here...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 03/24/2017 02:46 pm
The link to the new photos, for the lazy:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42511.msg1658106.msg#1658106

Having given the "other thread" a quick look, I agree it is the more suitable place for kremlinology about how this thing will work.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ehb on 03/25/2017 04:08 pm
She's on her way:

ELSBETH III departed from Port CAPE CANAVERAL
at 2017-03-25 12:52 Local Time (2017-03-25 16:52 UTC)

Notice received from http://marinetraffic.com
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 03/25/2017 06:30 pm
Same information from the SES-10 thread, but with direct link to MT listing:

OCISLY or at least Elsbeth III left Port Canaveral.
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:434560/zoom:10
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 03/25/2017 06:35 pm
a look at $webcam shows that OCISLY has left
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IanThePineapple on 03/25/2017 06:36 pm
What webcam? everyone seems to awkward talking about it...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 03/25/2017 06:46 pm
What webcam? everyone seems to awkward talking about it...
good summary of the events: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4izg1t/regarding_ptztv_and_links_to_their_port_canaveral/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IanThePineapple on 03/25/2017 06:58 pm
What webcam? everyone seems to awkward talking about it...
good summary of the events: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4izg1t/regarding_ptztv_and_links_to_their_port_canaveral/

Very interesting and sad. Where can I find a link to the camera? Feel free to PM me the link if need be.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 03/25/2017 07:16 pm
What webcam? everyone seems to awkward talking about it...
good summary of the events: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4izg1t/regarding_ptztv_and_links_to_their_port_canaveral/

Very interesting and sad. Where can I find a link to the camera? Feel free to PM me the link if need be.

Just google Port Canaveral webcam...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 03/27/2017 05:06 pm
a look at $webcam shows that OCISLY has left

HEre is a video:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BSEcCVlAhb-/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 03/28/2017 04:34 am
It's pretty awesome that the ASDS is underway and it's become so ho-hum that this thread is barely updating.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 03/28/2017 10:51 pm
It's pretty awesome that the ASDS is underway and it's become so ho-hum that this thread is barely updating.

Agreed :)  And in that spirit ...

According to MarineTraffic, both Go Searcher and Go Quest had left Port Canaveral, were well out to sea and heading east at around 8 knots, as of the last data point at around midnight last night (local time).

Looks like all hands on deck for this one, therefore I'm hoping we'll see fairing recovery on this flight (see that thread (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37727.720) for more discussion on that topic).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 03/28/2017 11:33 pm
Here's a quick question for the thread: how many of the ASDSes currently have clovers painted on them?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 03/31/2017 12:13 pm
Ok, so we need a thread 4. This one is nearly 100 pages (400.000+ views :o)

I do think we should start moving to master threads for all ASDS returns, given the frequency, but I'm thinking about a standalone thread for 1021's return, given its historic milestone.

Let me work it all out :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Confusador on 03/31/2017 11:57 pm
Ok, so we need a thread 4. This one is nearly 100 pages (400.000+ views :o)
...

For a barge.  On a space forum.  It really is amazing, isn't it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 04/02/2017 03:17 am
For anyone following just this thread, Chris B did create a separate thread for updates / discussion of the ASDS now carrying the SES-10 / B1021 first stage:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42646.0

Per his comment above and in that thread, there will be a Thread 4 of this general discussion, probably after the current ASDS return completes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 04/16/2017 01:39 pm
From the "roomba" thread (which is still at sea in the general section instead of here with its brethren):

First pics I know of of roomba in its garage, taken by photographer John Kraus who engaged a helicopter to get these and posted to the FB SpaceX group.

Also first good pics of the welded chain-down brackets on the deck, and great proof of landing spot.

Instagram: @johnkrausphotos
Website: www.johnkrausphotos.com (http://www.johnkrausphotos.com/) -- prints available

https://www.facebook.com/groups/spacexgroup/permalink/10155301586611318/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/spacexgroup/permalink/10155301586611318/)

Would I be correct in stating that the metal framework on the deck in the second and third photos looks like it's one of the emergency tow cable "ramps" that are normally over the top of the Thrustmasters to allow the tow cable to deploy without snagging.  Is there a reason to have that removed and on the deck other than for unfettered access to one of the azimuth thrusters?

(I suppose they could be replacing the cable ramps with an upgrade, but since all they have to do is guide the tow cable over the thrusters, I can't think of a reason off-hand to have to upgrade them.  I wouldn't think they'd require sufficient maintenance already for removal and replacement to be necessary.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sierra tango on 04/16/2017 04:00 pm
Looks like the forward starboard thruster has been removed as is sitting on the quay.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/16/2017 10:20 pm
Looks like the forward starboard thruster has been removed as is sitting on the quay.
Wild speculation: of the Roomba is hydraulically powered, they might be doing an upgrade of the hydraulic power unit for that thruster, so it can handle the Roomba as well as its normal duties.  Of course, I don't know why you'd need to *remove* the thruster to do this...

Edit: nevermind, the removed thruster is in the wrong quadrant to be related to the Roomba, and it's pretty clear which HPU would power the Roomba (the one directly behind it).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 04/28/2017 10:47 pm
Looks like Go Quest is leaving the port: https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=1155515

(snip)

Anyone got eyes/cams on OCISLY?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 04/28/2017 11:01 pm
Looks like Go Quest is leaving the port: https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=1155515

(snip)

Anyone got eyes/cams on OCISLY?
This launch will be RTLS, not drone ship.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jdeshetler on 04/29/2017 12:06 am
Looks like Go Quest is leaving the port: https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=1155515

(snip)

Anyone got eyes/cams on OCISLY?
This launch will be RTLS, not drone ship.

So Go Quest's role is to pick up the recoverable fairings?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 04/29/2017 12:43 am
Elsbeth III hasn't moved recently, and no other vessels appear to be accompanying Go Quest, so it would seem OCISLY is still in port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 04/29/2017 01:06 am
Looks like Go Quest is leaving the port: https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=1155515

(snip)

Anyone got eyes/cams on OCISLY?
This launch will be RTLS, not drone ship.
I knew that.
Oops :P
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 04/29/2017 01:13 am
Fairings...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 05/14/2017 06:43 pm
Any update on our loved ship?  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: maximlevitsky on 05/21/2017 08:53 am
Found bunch of new pictures on the Reddit:

https://imgur.com/a/5LKqj

Nothing changed, except that they seems to have painted one of bow thrusters partially white  :(
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 05/22/2017 06:49 pm
Found bunch of new pictures on the Reddit:

https://imgur.com/a/5LKqj

Nothing changed, except that they seems to have painted one of bow thrusters partially white  :(
https://i.imgur.com/gZCRKwZ.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/gZCRKwZ.jpg) : Good view of the RoombX, I believe ! That thing is definitely pretty big !

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/23/2017 02:51 am
Found bunch of new pictures on the Reddit:

https://imgur.com/a/5LKqj

Nothing changed, except that they seems to have painted one of bow thrusters partially white  :(

They haven't painted it.. for some reason the thruster has been left in the 'down' position too long and the blue anti-foul has started to work.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 06/01/2017 12:25 pm
Updated photo
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 06/15/2017 04:10 am
Elsbeth II is underway, with destination given as Jacksonville.  Go Twins are still in port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 06/15/2017 02:35 pm
Elsbeth II went up to Jacksonville...  ???
Just pulling into port there...  :-\
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:442009/mmsi:367352720/imo:8523125/vessel:ELSBETH_II (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:442009/mmsi:367352720/imo:8523125/vessel:ELSBETH_II)
Wonder what's up with that move...  :(
Maybe it's got a tow job to do for someone else...  :)

Meanwhile... Elsbeth III with OCISLY in tow is headed east out to sea...  8)
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:434560/mmsi:367017460/imo:8983375/vessel:ELSBETH_III (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:434560/mmsi:367017460/imo:8983375/vessel:ELSBETH_III)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pb2000 on 06/15/2017 02:48 pm
Elsbeth II went up to Jacksonville...  ???
Just pulling into port there...  :-\

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:442009/mmsi:367352720/imo:8523125/vessel:ELSBETH_II (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:442009/mmsi:367352720/imo:8523125/vessel:ELSBETH_II)

Wonder what's up with that move...  :(

Meanwhile... Elsbeth III with OCISLY in tow is headed east...  8)
She should be renamed "Of course I'll still tow you" just to avoid any future confusion.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 06/15/2017 03:01 pm
Yeah, I got an email alert for Elsbeth III departing, but II showed up steaming North when I searched AIS.  Whoops!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 06/15/2017 03:06 pm
OCISLY is on the move to catch the booster:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:434560/mmsi:367017460

The official launch date may still be Sunday, but a reported request for Monday could put this four days ahead of launch.
Is three days the normal lead time to leave port?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 06/15/2017 03:34 pm
OCISLY is on the move to catch the booster:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:434560/mmsi:367017460

The official launch date may still be Sunday, but a reported request for Monday could put this four days ahead of launch.
Is three days the normal lead time to leave port?

As I recall from past history... 3 days has been the norm for Elsbeth III to leave pre-launch on Geo flights...
The captain of EIII has also shown a tendency to baby his engines (my opinion) when towing for hours on end...
Slow steaming is a term I have heard... saves fuel and engine/driveline wear and tear...
He trades leaving a bit early for saving costs in route... and he can always go faster if need be...to be on time
When taking OCISLY to the dry dock in the Bahamas a while back... He really put the coals to it for a few hours in route...
Again... just my opinion and honestly nothing wrong with doing what he does... taking it easy on her...  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pb2000 on 06/15/2017 03:34 pm
OCISLY is on the move to catch the booster:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:434560/mmsi:367017460

The official launch date may still be Sunday, but a reported request for Monday could put this four days ahead of launch.
Is three days the normal lead time to leave port?
Margins should allow for a boostback burn, so they may not be going out as far as usual for a GTO launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 06/15/2017 03:39 pm
OCISLY is on the move to catch the booster:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:434560/mmsi:367017460

The official launch date may still be Sunday, but a reported request for Monday could put this four days ahead of launch.
Is three days the normal lead time to leave port?
Margins should allow for a boostback burn, so they may not be going out as far as usual for a GTO launch.

They are going a ways out
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42913.msg1689913#msg1689913 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42913.msg1689913#msg1689913)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 06/16/2017 03:58 am
They are going a ways out
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42913.msg1689913#msg1689913 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42913.msg1689913#msg1689913)
How far out is the target point and how does this compare to previous landings after geotransfer launches?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: LouScheffer on 06/16/2017 12:09 pm
They are going a ways out
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42913.msg1689913#msg1689913 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42913.msg1689913#msg1689913)
How far out is the target point and how does this compare to previous landings after geotransfer launches?
A back of the envelope calculation indicates it will be very close to previous landings, which were about 660 km out, likely within a few km.

The calculation goes like this. Bulgaria-sat is guessed to mass about 3.7t.  Previous launches were about 5.3t.  How much difference will this make in the landing site?  The second stage masses roughly 120 tonnes + payload.  The first stage is roughly 27t empty with 436t fuel.  About 20t of fuel is reserved for landing.  Using these numbers, we get initial and burnout mass for the first stage of 588.3t and 172.3t.  Reducing the mass of the payload makes these 586.7t and 170.7t.  Then we apply the rocket equation to both (delta-V = ISP*g*ln(initial mass/burnout mass) ), ISP is about 311, and then take the difference.   It's about 20 m/s, so the first stage will be going 20 m/s faster at staging.

Since more or less 100 seconds of the trajectory is horizontal, that's at most 2 km further out due to the lighter payload.  On the other hand, SpaceX might chose to reserve a little more fuel for slowing down the booster, to make re-entry a little easier on the rocket.  That could result in a few km shorter flight.  But overall, the landing will be very close to where the ship has been before.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cwr on 06/25/2017 06:26 pm
I've been looking in this thread for news of OCISLY's return ETA with Bulgariasat S1 and also JRTI's departure from LA for Iridium 2.

Is this data no longer tracked in this ASDS thread?
Or is it in a different ASDS thread - if so which one, since my searches didn't find it?
I did find JRTI departure data in an Iridium thread - is that the current norm?

Thanks for any pointers

Carl
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rberry on 06/25/2017 06:52 pm
It usually takes 4 days (give or take some) for the return trip. That should put it arriving mid-day on Tuesday 6/27. Arrival time will become more clear when the vessel appears on AIS as it gets closer to shore.

[speculation]

I expect it to take longer to secure the stage due to the crush core damage. Possibly slower transport speed too. Also they seem to like to bring her into port when there isn't much traffic in the channel, so later in the evening or early morning. I would guess early Wednesday morning.

Based on looking at AIS data for NRC QUEST location and nearby vessels, it appears like the tug KELLY C is with JRTI. KELLY C left port at 10:00 on 6/23, so that fits. It's last updated position (not that long ago surprisingly) looks to be roughly in the NOTMAR area. Also, if I remember correctly the tug SARAH C might have been associated with JRTI before. All speculation based on data mining.

[end speculation]

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/25/2017 07:32 pm
I've been looking in this thread for news of OCISLY's return ETA with Bulgariasat S1 and also JRTI's departure from LA for Iridium 2.

Is this data no longer tracked in this ASDS thread?
Or is it in a different ASDS thread - if so which one, since my searches didn't find it?
I did find JRTI departure data in an Iridium thread - is that the current norm?

Thanks for any pointers

Carl
Some discussion also occurs in the sister ships thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111.0
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cwr on 06/25/2017 07:50 pm
I've been looking in this thread for news of OCISLY's return ETA with Bulgariasat S1 and also JRTI's departure from LA for Iridium 2.

Is this data no longer tracked in this ASDS thread?
Or is it in a different ASDS thread - if so which one, since my searches didn't find it?
I did find JRTI departure data in an Iridium thread - is that the current norm?

Thanks for any pointers

Carl
Some discussion also occurs in the sister ships thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111.0

Thanks, for the pointer to that thread - I had searched for asds in thread titles  and I didn't see that one.

Also thanks to rberry for their response. I'd similar speculations. When I was looking for the LA departure, I'd first looked for Sarah C but she's up in San Francisco today so not involved in this landing attempt.

thanks

Carl
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: longboard1210 on 06/25/2017 08:41 pm
First time in history two rockets recovered from space on barges lol well done space x  !!!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JAFO on 06/25/2017 09:14 pm
How long after landing until the crew boards the ASDS?

TIA
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 06/26/2017 12:38 am
Some discussion also occurs in the sister ships thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111.0

Can someone clarify the purposes of these two threads?  I understand updates vs discussion, so which is which here?  Combine?

This one seems to be getting far more activity.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/26/2017 12:54 am
Some discussion also occurs in the sister ships thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111.0

Can someone clarify the purposes of these two threads?  I understand updates vs discussion, so which is which here?  Combine?

This one seems to be getting far more activity.

Chris, the original purpose of the 'sister ships' thread was to declutter this one (which is supposed to be solely for discussion and updates on the two ASDS's) by acting as a place for sister ships traffic information and general discussion about the SpaceX fleet.

That's kinda happening.. but it does seem folks still post here the second one of the barges picks up the tow.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 06/26/2017 01:20 am
Ok thanks.  So ASDS return activity goes here.  Looking forward to watching the progress of TWO simultaneous returns!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 06/26/2017 11:03 am
I was literally heading here to ask if we should have standalone threads for the two returning boosters., given the potential issue of overlap in a single thread such as this?

So as not to clatter this thread, here's a POLL! Your vote, decides!

(Was a flash poll, but obviously the answer is an obvious "yes" so in work! Poll removed as it's now dead).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 06/26/2017 12:54 pm
Threads are live!

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43222.0 - for OCISLY return with B1029.2 - please update with any recent notes from this thread into the standalone thread.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43223.0 - for JRTI return with B1036.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/26/2017 06:37 pm
Interesting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.

We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 06/26/2017 06:44 pm
Interesting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.

We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.

Yes, good to have that confirmation. I would still like to know why. Is it because of some patent issue or just because they do not see any advantage in two way communication.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 06/26/2017 06:48 pm
Interesting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.

We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.

Yes, good to have that confirmation. I would still like to know why. Is it because of some patent issue or just because they do not see any advantage in two way communication.

Because there's no good reason. ASDS positioning and F9's GPS accuracy seem to be the last of their worries.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 06/26/2017 06:51 pm

Yes, good to have that confirmation. I would still like to know why. Is it because of some patent issue or just because they do not see any advantage in two way communication.


Many reasons among them is that:
the actual link can't be checked out before use. 
The stage is autonomous. 
It can go from ASDS to RTLS without changing anything
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/26/2017 06:52 pm
I wouldn't completely rule out John's being encouraged to say this to head off the patent threat. In particular, if extra ground-to-rocket comms are getting added to LZ-1, they might want to signal blue origin that they aren't using these at sea, and thus are still clear of BO's patent.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/26/2017 06:53 pm
Interesting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.

We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.

Yes, good to have that confirmation. I would still like to know why. Is it because of some patent issue or just because they do not see any advantage in two way communication.

Because there's no good reason. ASDS positioning and F9's GPS accuracy seem to be the last of their worries.

Yes, we believed from the early days of the ASDS announcement that WAAS GPS signal would be available at the ASDS, enabling sub-meter position knowledge by both the returning stage and the ASDS, and that as long as the ASDS autopilot was able to maintain position within a few meters of the target, all would be well.  And SpaceX has amply proved our optimism to be well-founded.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leovinus on 06/26/2017 07:34 pm
It's far easier to get an accurate position of a fixed barge than a moving ship. However, a moving ship could provide a more stable platform in rough seas for a larger scaled vehicle, as well as a more rapid return or longer downrange (lofted, "gentler" EI (no entry burn) using less props for more efficient boost(lifting not ballistic, higher drag/alpha) ).

Or maybe extend the drone ship in a similar way to FLIP http://www.ship-technology.com/projects/flip-ship/ (http://www.ship-technology.com/projects/flip-ship/) which might enable more ASDS stability in the water i.e. a more stable landing platform?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 06/26/2017 08:07 pm
And here we go again...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: drzerg on 06/26/2017 11:07 pm
i swear i heard that droneship at least sends windspeed data to stage
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 06/26/2017 11:27 pm
i swear i heard that droneship at least sends windspeed data to stage
No. Many people have speculated that it does or insisted it "needs to" so many people have believed that. But there has never been any evidence from a credible source to support the idea that the ASDS sends information to the rocket.

Edit: Typo. Thanks CameronD.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/26/2017 11:36 pm
i swear i heard that droneship at least sends windspeed data to stage
No. Many people have speculated that it does or insisted it "needs to" so many people have believed that. But there has never been any evidence from a credible source to support the idea that the ASDS sends information to the ASDS rocket.

There.. fixed it for you. :)

SpX use windspeed and sea state information to orient the ASDS to receive the incoming booster (and to 'abort' the landing if necessary by getting out of the way).. but that's the extent of it.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 06/26/2017 11:39 pm
Interesting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.

We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.
His exact words were "The drone ship does not send commands to the first stage in flight."  That leaves open whether or not commands are given to the stage after it lands, perhaps as part of safing it.  I'm not sure why that would be necessary though: the safing process could and probably should be entirely automatic.  After all, the rocket knows when it has landed.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 06/27/2017 12:01 am
Interesting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.

We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.
His exact words were "The drone ship does not send commands to the first stage in flight."  That leaves open whether or not commands are given to the stage after it lands, perhaps as part of safing it.  I'm not sure why that would be necessary though: the safing process could and probably should be entirely automatic.  After all, the rocket knows when it has landed.

Fair point re: safing, etc.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RDMM2081 on 06/27/2017 06:45 am
Sorry if I missed it in this mass of ASDS threads, but has there been any attempt made at an estimate of total cost of ASDS, barge + materials + thrusters + avionics + paint etc. I.E. what might SpaceX insure them for (assuming they could get insurance for something they are actively targeting with multiple tons of incoming ballistic "missile") or what might it cost them to replace from the ground up?

I think when they were first announced (ASDS in general) I made a super rough estimate of $3m for a Marmac, $1m for the steel deck plating, $500k for the thrusters, and another $500k for labor, paint and fuel, plus $250k for towing for the first landing attempt mission. 

Anyone else have any guesses or adjustments?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 06/27/2017 10:16 am
Interesting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.

We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.

Corollary. Why does the ASDS need to receive telemetry from the stage? It knows it's on its way, it doesn't need to move, it doesn't need to know anything.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 06/27/2017 10:23 am
Interesting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.

We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.

Corollary. Why does the ASDS need to receive telemetry from the stage? It knows it's on its way, it doesn't need to move, it doesn't need to know anything.
In this case, the ASDS serves as a data relay for SpaceX, since by the time the stage is closing in on the ASDS, it is below the horizon from the launch pad.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 06/27/2017 02:17 pm
Sorry if I missed it in this mass of ASDS threads, but has there been any attempt made at an estimate of total cost of ASDS, barge + materials + thrusters + avionics + paint etc. I.E. what might SpaceX insure them for (assuming they could get insurance for something they are actively targeting with multiple tons of incoming ballistic "missile") or what might it cost them to replace from the ground up?

I think when they were first announced (ASDS in general) I made a super rough estimate of $3m for a Marmac, $1m for the steel deck plating, $500k for the thrusters, and another $500k for labor, paint and fuel, plus $250k for towing for the first landing attempt mission. 

Anyone else have any guesses or adjustments?

Since each ASDS has caught one stage... that later has reflown... (two reflown to date)
I think we can safely say that both are nearing cash positive on the Spacex books... all in...  ;)

IOW... Cost to build and maintain both ASDS's... Costs ongoing for two tugs on call and three Go boats on call...
Cost to refurb the stages... Cost of cranes... Cost of port leases and installed fixturing... Cost of labor...

Balance that against not having to build two stages so far... My opinion is close to break even as of today...
Refly another stage and it starts going against the other costs to date company wide...

Just my opinion on question posed...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: elist on 06/27/2017 06:08 pm
Since each ASDS has caught one stage... that later has reflown... (two reflown to date)
I think we can safely say that both are nearing cash positive on the Spacex books... all in...  ;)

The current JRTI is the second JRTI.  The original JRTI hosted several of the unsuccessful landing attempts.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: biosehnsucht on 06/27/2017 09:27 pm
Weren't the wings and other hardware added to the original moved to the current JRTI?

So you could argue for a ship of Theseus situation, after all, it was the added hardware to the original MARMAC that made it an ASDS, those parts are more what make it an ASDS or JRTI itself than the underlying MARMAC.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/27/2017 11:32 pm
Interesting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.

We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.

Corollary. Why does the ASDS need to receive telemetry from the stage? It knows it's on its way, it doesn't need to move, it doesn't need to know anything.
In this case, the ASDS serves as a data relay for SpaceX, since by the time the stage is closing in on the ASDS, it is below the horizon from the launch pad.

Unless I'm much mistaken, it's one of the support ships that performs the data relay function - not the ASDS - since, as you quite rightly mentioned, it is below the horizon from the launch pad.

We know this because, long ago, in a thread not far away from this one, a knowledgeable and determined NSFer (not me!) sorted through the on-line list of SpaceX's FCC RF licence approvals and worked out what was being sent by what to where.  Very impressive it was too!!

Anyways, since it's a proven point already, let's move on shall we?
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 06/28/2017 10:13 am
Interesting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.

We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.

Corollary. Why does the ASDS need to receive telemetry from the stage? It knows it's on its way, it doesn't need to move, it doesn't need to know anything.
In this case, the ASDS serves as a data relay for SpaceX, since by the time the stage is closing in on the ASDS, it is below the horizon from the launch pad.

Unless I'm much mistaken, it's one of the support ships that performs the data relay function - not the ASDS - since, as you quite rightly mentioned, it is below the horizon from the launch pad.

We know this because, long ago, in a thread not far away from this one, a knowledgeable and determined NSFer (not me!) sorted through the on-line list of SpaceX's FCC RF licence approvals and worked out what was being sent by what to where.  Very impressive it was too!!

Anyways, since it's a proven point already, let's move on shall we?

Er, what is proven? You've just said that the data relay is via another ship, not the ASDS,so why does the stage send data to the ASDS if it isn't the relay?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 06/28/2017 12:39 pm
The callout specifically says the Drone Ship has AOS, as opposed to the support ship.  The ASDS is in a relatively fixed position relative to the returning stage.  The support ship would be moving closer and closer to the horizon, possibly out of LOS completely depending on sea state.

There was already going to be a data link from ASDS to support ship if they wanted live landing video, there's no reason the telemetry wouldn't use this same link.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 06/28/2017 03:39 pm
Interesting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.
...
His exact words were "The drone ship does not send commands to the first stage in flight."  That leaves open whether or not commands are given to the stage after it lands, perhaps as part of safing it.  I'm not sure why that would be necessary though: the safing process could and probably should be entirely automatic.  After all, the rocket knows when it has landed.

Evidence of some sort of communication from the ASDS after the stage has landed. So maybe related to safing:

...
First Stage Recovery permit application (https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=78745&RequestTimeout=1000):
Quote
This STA covers the experimental first-stage recovery operation, following a Falcon 9 launch from Vandenberg Air Force Base. This request is limited to the brief command uplink from an autonomous droneship to the launch vehicle after landing.
Ship Coordinates: North 31 39 58   West 121 39 43
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/28/2017 03:57 pm
From the bits of information we have, seems to me this is the likely state of data relays:

Stage 1 telemetry/video is received directly by support ship and uplinked to land via its onboard VSAT
"                       "  also received by ASDS (known from "drone ship AOS" callout)

ASDS uplinks its own telemetry/video back to land via its onboard VSAT (interrupted by vibe during landing)
ASDS sends stage safing commands after landing
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RDMM2081 on 07/03/2017 07:53 am
Sorry if I missed it in this mass of ASDS threads, but has there been any attempt made at an estimate of total cost of ASDS, barge + materials + thrusters + avionics + paint etc. I.E. what might SpaceX insure them for (assuming they could get insurance for something they are actively targeting with multiple tons of incoming ballistic "missile") or what might it cost them to replace from the ground up?

I think when they were first announced (ASDS in general) I made a super rough estimate of $3m for a Marmac, $1m for the steel deck plating, $500k for the thrusters, and another $500k for labor, paint and fuel, plus $250k for towing for the first landing attempt mission. 

Anyone else have any guesses or adjustments?

Since each ASDS has caught one stage... that later has reflown... (two reflown to date)
I think we can safely say that both are nearing cash positive on the Spacex books... all in...  ;)

IOW... Cost to build and maintain both ASDS's... Costs ongoing for two tugs on call and three Go boats on call...
Cost to refurb the stages... Cost of cranes... Cost of port leases and installed fixturing... Cost of labor...

Balance that against not having to build two stages so far... My opinion is close to break even as of today...
Refly another stage and it starts going against the other costs to date company wide...

Just my opinion on question posed...  ;)

Thanks for the response and input :). Sounds like we have some fairly different assumptions about the costs of the ASDS program, but also I think I can safely see my way to get into your ballpark of costs, especially adding in all the support ship costs I think I overlooked in my first ballpark estimate(guess). 

When you start phrasing it in terms of cost saved per booster recovered and reflown(catching a stack of cash about $30m high?) it's pretty hard to imagine that the cost of the entire program over its lifetime isn't at least very close to break-even, and with most of the investment already made it should start returning value rather well going forward.

Thanks again for taking a moment to think about it and respond!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: nickninevah on 07/31/2017 10:45 pm
Professional ship designer here.  I work with barges like the ASDS all the time.

Daily rates for an ocean-going tug are an average of $15k / day / tug. 

http://www.marcon.com/library/articles/2007/Tug%20Trends%20-%20Final%20color.pdf (http://www.marcon.com/library/articles/2007/Tug%20Trends%20-%20Final%20color.pdf)

If you assume a distance of 120 NM offshore, then you get around 5-6 days time for each launch.  So tug commitment is $90k / tug / launch. 

Docking fees are around $0.45 / GRT.  For the ASDS, that comes to around $60k / month.

Barge costs around $10M to build and equip with the thrustmaster DP modules.

Add in some $20k/launch for fuel and supplies.  And another $10k/launch for cranes. 

Including a rough insurance cost.  Assume 1 launch per month and assume that you own the barge (because I don't want to consider charter rates in the 10 minutes I spent on this).  And assume a 10 year operational life, which is really short for a barge.  That gives you a capitalized cost of around $38M for 10 years of barge operations.  (roughly $317k per launch.)

If you do two launches per month, that gives you a capitalized cost of around $60M for 10 years. (roughly $250k per launch.)  Someone else said a new Falcon 9 costs $30M?  My estimates don't include costs of making the rocket ready for the next launch.  But still safe to say a good value proposition.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 07/31/2017 11:46 pm
Professional ship designer here.  I work with barges like the ASDS all the time.

Daily rates for an ocean-going tug are an average of $15k / day / tug. 

http://www.marcon.com/library/articles/2007/Tug%20Trends%20-%20Final%20color.pdf (http://www.marcon.com/library/articles/2007/Tug%20Trends%20-%20Final%20color.pdf)

If you assume a distance of 120 NM offshore, then you get around 5-6 days time for each launch.  So tug commitment is $90k / tug / launch. 

Docking fees are around $0.45 / GRT.  For the ASDS, that comes to around $60k / month.

Barge costs around $10M to build and equip with the thrustmaster DP modules.

Add in some $20k/launch for fuel and supplies.  And another $10k/launch for cranes. 

Including a rough insurance cost.  Assume 1 launch per month and assume that you own the barge (because I don't want to consider charter rates in the 10 minutes I spent on this).  And assume a 10 year operational life, which is really short for a barge.  That gives you a capitalized cost of around $38M for 10 years of barge operations.  (roughly $317k per launch.)

If you do two launches per month, that gives you a capitalized cost of around $60M for 10 years. (roughly $250k per launch.)  Someone else said a new Falcon 9 costs $30M?  My estimates don't include costs of making the rocket ready for the next launch.  But still safe to say a good value proposition.

Thanks for your input and info on this... and welcome to the forum! :)

My only comment is that, in this case, SpaceX have chosen to charter the barges.  That seemed to make sense initially because it was very much an experiment, but now maybe not so much?

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: nickninevah on 08/01/2017 04:35 pm
My only comment is that, in this case, SpaceX have chosen to charter the barges.  That seemed to make sense initially because it was very much an experiment, but now maybe not so much?


Fair point.  As you said, it makes sense to charter when this is just an initial experiment.  I initially avoided the charter question because it gets really complicated.  Each charter contract is different depending on who pays for what (insurance, regulatory fees, crew costs, fuel, etc).  But to take my already rough numbers and make them even more rough:

That barge is a standard ocean going deck barge.  Almost as simple as it gets.  So assume a low charter rate of $5k per day.  Then add in $1M to outfit the barge as a drone ship.  And add another $1M to put it back the way you found it when you are done.  Over 10 years, the capitalized cost for a chartered barge, with mods, is somewhere around $17.6M.  (+/- 50%)

Doing one launch per month, that works out to a total capital cost of about $45.5M, or $380k per launch.
Doing two launches per month, you get a total capital cost of about $67.6M, or $282k per launch.

So the cost of chartering is not much greater than owning the vessel.  And you can negotiate the charter contract so that the marine company handles all the hassles of owning a vessel. 

The one downside is that you don't get to customize the vessel in any important way.  If I wanted to land a rocket on an ocean barge, I think my first priority is a stable platform with minimal motions. 

A barge is almost the worst type of vessel for that purpose.  Barges are extremely sensitive to ocean waves, even if you add ballast.  So that severely limits the ocean weather that you can recover in.

I saw some other forum postings about creating 6DOF active motion compensating platform on the ASDS.  With the right vessel, you don't need any of that.  We can use combinations of trimaran hulls to make them less sensitive to ocean waves.  Then add in heave plates.  Those severely dampen out the vessel motions and act as a great sea anchor.  That's already 75% of the vessel motions gone, without a single active system.

Then there is the position control system.  The Thrustmaster units are great if you want something to drop onto a barge.  But there are other vendors with better integrated units.  The offshore oil industry has refined position control to an artform with their semi submersible drilling rigs.  I have even seen specialized propeller units that can both keep position, and compensate for vessel roll motions at the same time (3 DOF control:  surge, sway, and roll).

So yeah, I like the current ASDS.  But I really want to know what the next generation looks like.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 08/02/2017 03:03 am
I think something like this... (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170802/63867ed841c77901667d63d02d627b2c.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 08/02/2017 05:59 am
My only comment is that, in this case, SpaceX have chosen to charter the barges.  That seemed to make sense initially because it was very much an experiment, but now maybe not so much?


Fair point.  As you said, it makes sense to charter when this is just an initial experiment.  I initially avoided the charter question because it gets really complicated.  Each charter contract is different depending on who pays for what (insurance, regulatory fees, crew costs, fuel, etc).  But to take my already rough numbers and make them even more rough:

...

So yeah, I like the current ASDS.  But I really want to know what the next generation looks like.
I think SpaceX's plan is that there is no next generation ASDS.  I think the point to ITSy is that the booster can always RTLS.  Presumably the reusable second stage will be able to choose when it deorbits so it lands on land as well.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 08/03/2017 04:32 am
I think SpaceX's plan is that there is no next generation ASDS.  I think the point to ITSy is that the booster can always RTLS.  Presumably the reusable second stage will be able to choose when it deorbits so it lands on land as well.

Their plan was to always RTLC (Return To Launch Cradle ;) ) but that was just a plan.

We haven't seen much evidence of progress to that end, like we saw Grasshopper pathfinding for vertical landing. It's a grand vision, but all the physical evidence we have seen is a ginormous composite tank, which was tested to destruction, and a small methalox engine doing short bursts.  There will be changes in implementation.

Maybe they would put a landing cradle on one of the ASDSs.

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 08/03/2017 12:12 pm
I think SpaceX's plan is that there is no next generation ASDS.  I think the point to ITSy is that the booster can always RTLS.  Presumably the reusable second stage will be able to choose when it deorbits so it lands on land as well.

Their plan was to always RTLC (Return To Launch Cradle ;) ) but that was just a plan.

We haven't seen much evidence of progress to that end, like we saw Grasshopper pathfinding for vertical landing. It's a grand vision, but all the physical evidence we have seen is a ginormous composite tank, which was tested to destruction, and a small methalox engine doing short bursts.  There will be changes in implementation.

Maybe they would put a landing cradle on one of the ASDSs.

 

If they are to ever use the landing on the launch craddle, it is clear to me that they will have to test it first on something that can be destroyed in case of failiure without destroying the launchpad.
Maybe it can however be a hybrid between a landing cradle and the landing legs so that the stage doesn't get destroyed if the craddle fails or if the landing isn't accurate enough, initially ?

I guess we'll have to see, but clearly, with a big rocket like that, there is an incentive to try not to loose the stage while testing, so at the very least, we can expectan initial period with landing legs while figuring out how to land accurately and reproducibly enough with these new stages.
First stage can probably RTLS early in the development cycle, since they have a lot of experience with landing first stages by now.
I would expect 2nd stage to initially go for an ASDS landing until it is prooved that they can land the 2nd stage with a good enough level of confidence.

I wouldn't expect to see development of a landing craddle before both stages can RTLS, since rapid relaunch will come after rapid reusability in their priority tree.

But anyway, back to our regular programming. How are our ASDSs doing recently ? Haven't heard much about them  in a while !
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kaiser on 08/09/2017 07:24 pm
My only comment is that, in this case, SpaceX have chosen to charter the barges.  That seemed to make sense initially because it was very much an experiment, but now maybe not so much?


Fair point.  As you said, it makes sense to charter when this is just an initial experiment.  I initially avoided the charter question because it gets really complicated.  Each charter contract is different depending on who pays for what (insurance, regulatory fees, crew costs, fuel, etc).  But to take my already rough numbers and make them even more rough:

That barge is a standard ocean going deck barge.  Almost as simple as it gets.  So assume a low charter rate of $5k per day.

$5k per day is ridiculously low for ANY boat charter, much less one the size on an ASDS.  The ASDS likely burns $5k per day in fuel.  The boat I charter to go out to sea (~150' long, not very wide and not very fast) costs $4k per day in fuel. Add in depreciation costs, registration costs, insurance, remote monitoring staff, satcom costs, etc, etc. and you're into 5 digits pretty quickly.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gongora on 08/09/2017 07:31 pm
My only comment is that, in this case, SpaceX have chosen to charter the barges.  That seemed to make sense initially because it was very much an experiment, but now maybe not so much?


Fair point.  As you said, it makes sense to charter when this is just an initial experiment.  I initially avoided the charter question because it gets really complicated.  Each charter contract is different depending on who pays for what (insurance, regulatory fees, crew costs, fuel, etc).  But to take my already rough numbers and make them even more rough:

That barge is a standard ocean going deck barge.  Almost as simple as it gets.  So assume a low charter rate of $5k per day.

$5k per day is ridiculously low for ANY boat charter, much less one the size on an ASDS.  The ASDS likely burns $5k per day in fuel.  The boat I charter to go out to sea (~150' long, not very wide and not very fast) costs $4k per day in fuel. Add in depreciation costs, registration costs, insurance, remote monitoring staff, satcom costs, etc, etc. and you're into 5 digits pretty quickly.

He listed the barge and the tug separately.  The $5k was just for a barge that can be turned into an ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 08/09/2017 08:13 pm
He listed the barge and the tug separately.  The $5k was just for a barge that can be turned into an ASDS.

The ASDS thrusters use fuel but a) not all the time, only on the days they are keeping station and b) that probably is accounted for elsewhere in the estimate, since the barge leasing company did not supply the thrusters, SpaceX installed them...

tl/dr: I agree. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 08/10/2017 04:35 pm
I believe we've seen the support ships leave port to do non-spacex-related work.  So they might not be 100% under contract.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 08/10/2017 04:37 pm
I believe we've seen the support ships leave port to do non-spacex-related work.  So they might not be 100% under contract.

E3 maybe.... but the Go Twins have SpaceX specific gear that stays on their decks. I have yet to see them leave port for any length of time that wasn't SX related.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 08/10/2017 04:40 pm
Yeah, it was E3 I was mostly referring to.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 08/10/2017 05:27 pm
Yeah, it was E3 I was mostly referring to.

Possible but not likely. Except for one trip where I believe she had some work done to the ship, I haven't seen her leave in 2 years without OCISLY in tow. I follow her on the web monitoring site so I get a notification when she leaves port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 08/11/2017 07:33 am
There was also that trip alone to Florida, where the speculation was she was testing radio gear.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 08/26/2017 01:17 am
So I'm sitting at fishlips, waiting for the orbitalATK Minotaur launch with my four year old.  On the way in, what do I notice but the Go sisters, Searcher and Quest, and a tug whose name I can't read but I'll wager is our friend EIII.  Is this their usual tie up, by fishlips behind the casino ship "victory ii"?

It's dark and I can't see OCISLY, though that's what I'm hoping to spot.  It should be across the way, but before the container cranes right?  Any reason it wouldn't be in port?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 08/26/2017 01:29 am
Yes that’s their normal tie up location.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 08/26/2017 02:43 am
Wow. No west coast love for JTRI apparently.
We had mission prep (presumably); departure; and then an ASDS caught a rocket yesterday, and presumably they are on there way back with said rocket.
And with all the discussion here you'd think this was the ULA ASDS thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 08/26/2017 05:33 am
ULA have ASDSes? I missed a memo, I think.  :)

But yeah, has this gotten so routine that we forget to even say "JRTI left port" ??
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pb2000 on 08/26/2017 02:33 pm
NRC Quest seems to be about 315km from port and I would assume the tug in front of her (BETTY R GAMBARELLA) has an ASDS in tow. At current speed 38 hours to port is what I calculate.

https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=9271195
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RonM on 08/26/2017 02:34 pm
ULA have ASDSes? I missed a memo, I think.  :)

But yeah, has this gotten so routine that we forget to even say "JRTI left port" ??

We're still in the early stages of reusable rockets, but the eventual goal is for this to be so common that we don't comment on daily operations.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 08/27/2017 11:29 pm
So I'm sitting at fishlips, waiting for the orbitalATK Minotaur launch with my four year old.  On the way in, what do I notice but the Go sisters, Searcher and Quest, and a tug whose name I can't read but I'll wager is our friend EIII.  Is this their usual tie up, by fishlips behind the casino ship "victory ii"?

It's dark and I can't see OCISLY, though that's what I'm hoping to spot.  It should be across the way, but before the container cranes right?  Any reason it wouldn't be in port?

I just checked and their survey & inspection certificates and paperwork are all good until July next year at least, so I see no particular reason she'd be out of service.. unless it's time for a hull clean and anti-foul.

It's summer over there, right?  Summer is when hull growth is worst, so if they've towed her away somewhere that's possibly it.  Unless there's other work they wish to do out of the water, I wouldn't think she'd be away more than a week.  :)
   
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 09/01/2017 12:31 am
I think I did finally locate her (picture attached). Just real hard to see her without lights on the asds and lights blaring next door on a gravel (?) barge they were actively filling.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 09/01/2017 03:35 am
I think I did finally locate her (picture attached). Just real hard to see her without lights on the asds and lights blaring next door on a gravel (?) barge they were actively filling.

So.. it's been night-time for a week over that way?!?  ???  Man, that eclipse must have been quite something to not provide enough daylight to take photos.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 09/01/2017 04:14 am
Some people have jobs/kids/spouses/beer drinking habits and stuff that prevent them from camping out at the harbor.

Crazy, I know.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 09/01/2017 02:42 pm
Yeah, I just had one (long) day with my son at Port Canaveral before we had to return to the less-rocket-obsessed portion of our family and their vacation (which has since that day kept me mostly offline in the middle of the Caribbean Sea).  I figured I'd post my pictures/experiences just to help any other similarly crazy asds/go-sister stalkers know what to expect and what to look for.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 09/09/2017 11:55 am
OCISLY is alongside her usual berth in Port Canaveral, visible on the notorious webcam.

According to MarineTraffic, Go Quest and Go Searcher are tucked up in Green Cove Springs on the St.Johns River, a fair way upstream of Jacksonville. There's also a 'Go America' there, which looks like she's a third 'Go twin'.

Elsbeth III was last reported in Port Canaveral and looks to be tied up pretty much outside the Fishlips restaurant (to the left of the webcam).

Current forecast track for Irma suggests it will get a bit blustery (60 knots or so), but hopefully not problematic.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 09/10/2017 03:48 pm
Elsbeth III has moved from the berth west of the Fishlips restaurant and now *appears* to be berthed in front of OCISLY.


<Wild speculation> IF there is a crew aboard/nearby and IF there is a significant storm surge.. and presumably as Irma heads north, the wind direction will move to push OCISLY towards the dock wall, so it may prove useful to have a tug on hand to move it (her?) if necessary and potentially avoid the worst-case situation where OCISLY ends up on the dock (although I'd have expected the ASDS to have been ballasted before the storm arrived). </Wild speculation>
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AncientU on 09/10/2017 10:17 pm
Elsbeth III has moved from the berth west of the Fishlips restaurant and now *appears* to be berthed in front of OCISLY.


<Wild speculation> IF there is a crew aboard/nearby and IF there is a significant storm surge.. and presumably as Irma heads north, the wind direction will move to push OCISLY towards the dock wall, so it may prove useful to have a tug on hand to move it (her?) if necessary and potentially avoid the worst-case situation where OCISLY ends up on the dock (although I'd have expected the ASDS to have been ballasted before the storm arrived). </Wild speculation>

You'd have zero control on that barge in this storm, especially with storm surge thrown in.  If OCISLY breaks its moorings, then it is heading where ever the storm dictates; Elsbeth III will be along for the ride.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 09/10/2017 11:08 pm
<Wild speculation> IF there is a crew aboard/nearby and IF there is a significant storm surge.. and presumably as Irma heads north, the wind direction will move to push OCISLY towards the dock wall, so it may prove useful to have a tug on hand to move it (her?) if necessary and potentially avoid the worst-case situation where OCISLY ends up on the dock (although I'd have expected the ASDS to have been ballasted before the storm arrived). </Wild speculation>

When dealing with a hurricane-force winds, towards the dock is good; away from the dock is a much bigger problem entirely.

(It's always nice to know your ship will be somewhere close to where you left it when the storm is over  ;) )
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 09/10/2017 11:23 pm
I expect that if there's a serious storm surge, one tug won't stop ASDS motion, and may well be imperiled itself.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 09/10/2017 11:41 pm
I suspect Elsbeth III is docked in front of OCISLY  because that area is a safe-ish spot. According to AIS and a certain webcam, Victory I is docked behind OCISLY.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 09/11/2017 02:18 am
I expect that if there's a serious storm surge, one tug won't stop ASDS motion, and may well be imperiled itself.

I suspect Elsbeth III is docked in front of OCISLY  because that area is a safe-ish spot. According to AIS and a certain webcam, Victory I is docked behind OCISLY.

From personal experience, if there's a serious storm surge, nothing will stop anything afloat (and some stuff that isn't!) moving.  The tugs would be beached or blown out to sea just as quickly as the ASDS.

Anyways, let's just hope the mooring lines hold.  :)
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: StuffOfInterest on 09/12/2017 03:57 pm
With the change in direction I'm sure the storm didn't cause too much of an issue for OCISLY.  Still, I wonder if they filled the ballast tanks as much as possible to put the barge low in the water?  Cutting the wind cross section can't hurt in a situation like this.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 09/13/2017 12:20 pm
Power has been restored at Port Canaveral and the notorious webcam is back online.

OCISLY looks fine and is on her usual berth; and Elsbeth III is back berthed just to the west of the Fishlips restaurant.

According to the AIS data, Go Quest and Go Searcher are still on their holiday up-river from Jacksonville.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 09/13/2017 12:25 pm
Power has been restored at Port Canaveral and the notorious webcam is back online.

OCISLY looks fine and is on her usual berth; and Elsbeth III is back berthed just to the west of the Fishlips restaurant.

According to the AIS data, Go Quest and Go Searcher are still on their holiday up-river from Jacksonville.
Given what has happened, the Go Twins may now be regretting having gone to Jacksonville.  Port Canaveral might have been a better place to stay, in 20/20 hindsight.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 09/14/2017 08:38 am
AIS data suggests Go Searcher is now in Jacksonville; Go Quest is about halfway from Jacksonville to (presumably) Port Canaveral, sailing with the 'third twin' Go America (which is stated as heading for Port Everglades).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: hkultala on 09/14/2017 10:40 am
What are the Go Twins?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 09/14/2017 11:33 am
What are the Go Twins?
Go Searcher, Go Quest...

Actually, they're triplets, but the third (Go America) is a wayward child that has shunned SpaceX...

I forget who first started referring to them as the Go Twins.  Wasn't me.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 09/14/2017 12:55 pm
Slightly OT, but anyway...

 Guice Offshore LLC has 5 similar support ships (either owned or chartered):
- Go Quest (170ft)
- Go Searcher (170ft)
- Go America (150ft)
- Go Patriot (170ft)
- Go Pursuit (150ft)*

See - http://www.guiceoffshore.com/vessels.aspx

The first two are chartered regularly / permanently by SpaceX for ASDS operations - one (Go Quest) usually acts as support for the ASDS, the other (Go Searcher) has also been used for fairing (debris) recovery attempts.

Go America is also currently located on the east coast of Florida (making it the 'third twin') and the other two are currently in the Gulf of Mexico.

Where it gets complicated is that the three ships located on the east coast are also listed as available for charter by Eclipse Group - http://www.eclipse.us.com/support_vessels.html

From the looks of it, Guice Offshore owns the ships (hence the names) but Eclipse is the agent which has chartered them to SpaceX - that said, it's a bit difficult to determine confidential business arrangements from a couple of web pages.


*If we were being really pedantic, the 'Go twins' are part of a family of three 170ft triplets and two 150' twins, but that's just going to confuse everyone ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 09/14/2017 01:01 pm
Note that "Go" is the name of the company which owns the ships (Guice Offshore), and it's not uncommon for a company's fleet to share the same prefix.
http://www.guiceoffshore.com/VesselInfo.aspx?name=170+ft+DP1+Supply+%E2%80%93+GO+SEARCHER

But Quest and Searcher are identical vessels, not just owned by the same company.  And they go out together on ASDS missions. Hence "twins".

(Although the vessels are identical, they are not outfitted identically.  Searcher has a crane on its aft, IIRC, and Quest has some containers mounted. Speculation is that Searcher is tasked with debris/fairing recovery, and Quest is tasked with telemetry and C&C of the landed stage.)

PS. There's some footage of debris floating in the water in the latest SpaceX crash compilation which seems to confirm that debris recovery operations have taken place in the past.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 09/14/2017 01:30 pm
if someone crosslinked some of these posts to the support ship thread, I'd feel like I didn't need to try to twin myself.

(this is the thread, it's been a bit dormant:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111

This sort of info is really good)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 09/15/2017 08:55 am
Speaking of the ships... both Go Quest and Go Searcher are now 'home' in Port Canaveral, according to AIS data.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/03/2017 03:16 pm
No sign of OCISLY on the usual berth, although it looks like Go Searcher and Go Quest are there.

No sign of Elsbeth III either - and the AIS data suggests that she departed OCISLY's usual berth an hour ago and is now underway (albeit slowly - 3 knots or so) outside the harbour.

One conclusion might be that the drone ship has an appointment to get to?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/03/2017 06:07 pm
Go 'twins' are still in Port Canaveral; Elsbeth III is circling just off the port (presumably with OCISLY in tow).

There's a bulk carrier alongside in the port, pretty much on OCISLY's usual berth, so it could just be that Elsbeth III and the drone ship have left early to free up the space.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SmallKing on 10/04/2017 12:39 am
Go 'twins' are still in Port Canaveral; Elsbeth III is circling just off the port (presumably with OCISLY in tow).

There's a bulk carrier alongside in the port, pretty much on OCISLY's usual berth, so it could just be that Elsbeth III and the drone ship have left early to free up the space.
Elsbeth III returned to the port, according to the AIS data
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/04/2017 06:09 am
Go 'twins' are still in Port Canaveral; Elsbeth III is circling just off the port (presumably with OCISLY in tow).

There's a bulk carrier alongside in the port, pretty much on OCISLY's usual berth, so it could just be that Elsbeth III and the drone ship have left early to free up the space.
Elsbeth III returned to the port, according to the AIS data

Indeed. I wonder if this mission is going to fly expendable; or whether that was just a sea trial / needed to free up the berth for the bulk carrier?

Edit: ah no, Elon on Twitter says they’re aiming for two landings this weekend. He’d better tell the Skipper of Elsbeth III to remember where ‘Full Ahead’ is!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SmallKing on 10/07/2017 03:05 pm
NRC Quest and Betty R Gambarella tugging JRTI arrived at their destination
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SmallKing on 10/07/2017 03:09 pm
On the east coast, Elsbeth III has hidden from our AIS data for days
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 10/07/2017 04:06 pm
On the east coast, Elsbeth III has hidden from our AIS data for days
I noticed...  :-\
Launch is less then 4 days out...
It's thought Launch - 72 hours is the time to leave port time...
SO... She will either go out soon...  8)
OR... ELSBETH III has broken down and another tug may be chartered this round...  :P
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Raul on 10/08/2017 03:36 pm
OCISLY is just leaving the port towed by HAWK Tug, quite quickly arrived from Miami.
Elsbeth III stays at port together with GoQuest. GoSearcher left the port about 4hrs ago.

Edit: GoQuest is just leaving the port too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 10/08/2017 04:58 pm
HAWK tug looks to be more then capable for the job... 8)
http://www.seabulktowing.com/assets/pdfs/SBLKTowing_TwinSternZ_Hawk.pdf (http://www.seabulktowing.com/assets/pdfs/SBLKTowing_TwinSternZ_Hawk.pdf)

I wonder what's up with ELSBETH III...?  :(
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 10/08/2017 05:14 pm
Will the roomba be employed this recovery effort I wonder?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/08/2017 09:07 pm
HAWK tug looks to be more then capable for the job... 8)
http://www.seabulktowing.com/assets/pdfs/SBLKTowing_TwinSternZ_Hawk.pdf (http://www.seabulktowing.com/assets/pdfs/SBLKTowing_TwinSternZ_Hawk.pdf)

I wonder what's up with ELSBETH III...?  :(

That's an upgrade!

I wonder if Elsbeth III's strange outing last week had something to do with the change of tug?

It would be interesting to have confirmation of whether or not OCISLY was in tow, although the webcam, speeds and courses suggested that it was - and the timing was about right for the previous launch date.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 10/09/2017 01:19 am
Will the roomba be employed this recovery effort I wonder?

Is there a west coast roomba?

Matthew

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 10/09/2017 01:21 am
Will the roomba be employed this recovery effort I wonder?

Is there a west coast roomba?

Matthew

Not that we’ve seen. Highly unlikely.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 10/09/2017 02:03 am
Will the roomba be employed this recovery effort I wonder?

Is there a west coast roomba?

Matthew
I was referring to Wednesday’s launch attempt.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/09/2017 09:16 am
The octagrabber is almost certainly on the barge, so presumably they'll want to use it.

Assuming the first stage behaves itself, we'll no doubt find out at the end of the week.

As far as I can tell, the tug has dropped out of range of (land-based) AIS coverage and was last seen about 8 hours ago, heading east at about 7 knots (which is, iirc, somewhat faster than Elsbeth III usually managed).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 10/09/2017 02:33 pm
I always got the sense ELSBETH III's captain liked to "slow steam" when towing and save on fuel costs for the trip...
I mean he and crew lives on board... might as well leave early and come back late unless not an option...
When taking OCISLY to the dry-dock in the Bahamas a while back...
He did put the 'coal' to it about 2 hours out IIRC and made real good time into port that day... 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: joesmith on 10/10/2017 05:10 pm
Sorry to jump in like this but I was curious as to how far away is the tugboat when the Falcon lands.
Thanks
Joe Smith
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: joesmith on 10/10/2017 05:26 pm
Second thought,:: over the horizon...minimum?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/10/2017 05:46 pm
** ignore me, I mis-read the question... **
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 10/10/2017 05:57 pm
Sorry to jump in like this but I was curious as to how far away is the tugboat when the Falcon lands.
Thanks
Joe Smith

IIRC the crew has said about 10 miles away. Close enough to see both the booster and the fairings landing. There are some videos on YouTube of the booster landing which were shot from the support ships.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 10/11/2017 03:52 am
Some rough seas are apparently delaying crew from boarding JRTI.

Edit: I should clarify, as of ~24 hours ago.

No Roomba (as of ~28 hours ago, about 12 hours after landing)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/11/2017 07:45 am
Some rough seas are apparently delaying crew from boarding JRTI.

Edit: I should clarify, as of ~24 hours ago.

No Roomba (as of ~28 hours ago, about 12 hours after landing)

The octagrabber lives on OCISLY and doesn't yet have a sibling for JRTI?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 10/11/2017 04:10 pm
Some rough seas are apparently delaying crew from boarding JRTI.

Edit: I should clarify, as of ~24 hours ago.

No Roomba (as of ~28 hours ago, about 12 hours after landing)

The octagrabber lives on OCISLY and doesn't yet have a sibling for JRTI?

Sloppy on my part
Wrong coast, wrong day of this week.
No Roomba on JTRI.  Waiting to see what happens on OCISLY this evening.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kaiser on 10/11/2017 06:06 pm
I always got the sense ELSBETH III's captain liked to "slow steam" when towing and save on fuel costs for the trip...
I mean he and crew lives on board... might as well leave early and come back late unless not an option...
When taking OCISLY to the dry-dock in the Bahamas a while back...
He did put the 'coal' to it about 2 hours out IIRC and made real good time into port that day...

Yea, it's much much cheaper to run engines at idle than full thrust.  If not in a hurry you can save a huge chunk of fuel (and maintenance) costs.

Also, did you account for ocean conditions?  Sometimes we can be going 100% engines and making 4 knots, and other times we can be at engine optimal and be making 11 knots, and if we turn off the engines still be making close to 4 knots.  Just like headwind/tailwind for a plane, you have the same thing with ocean surface currents.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 10/12/2017 01:43 am
I always got the sense ELSBETH III's captain liked to "slow steam" when towing and save on fuel costs for the trip...
I mean he and crew lives on board... might as well leave early and come back late unless not an option...
When taking OCISLY to the dry-dock in the Bahamas a while back...
He did put the 'coal' to it about 2 hours out IIRC and made real good time into port that day...

Yea, it's much much cheaper to run engines at idle than full thrust.  If not in a hurry you can save a huge chunk of fuel (and maintenance) costs.

Also, did you account for ocean conditions?  Sometimes we can be going 100% engines and making 4 knots, and other times we can be at engine optimal and be making 11 knots, and if we turn off the engines still be making close to 4 knots.  Just like headwind/tailwind for a plane, you have the same thing with ocean surface currents.
Small nit. Not true re running at idle. Diesels need to be run with a load - something to the tune of 70% WOT. Otherwise you kill the engine. Displacement hulls in the ballpark length of Elsbeth III run around 8 knots. It’s built right into the physics of the hull shape. 4 knots generally means the tow can’t handle more in a given sea state. The barge hulls of the ASDS “ships” aren’t built for speed.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/12/2017 12:34 pm
Do we know what vessel is towing JRTI back?

A quick browse of marinetraffic is rather bereft of candidates other than a tug named 'Pacific Falcon', which is very appropriately named, but my natural suspicion doesn't want to conclude that SpaceX may be using a vessel of that name to recover Falcon 9s in the Pacific!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 10/12/2017 01:36 pm
Do we know what vessel is towing JRTI back?

A quick browse of marinetraffic is rather bereft of candidates other than a tug named 'Pacific Falcon', which is very appropriately named, but my natural suspicion doesn't want to conclude that SpaceX may be using a vessel of that name to recover Falcon 9s in the Pacific!

Betty R Gambarella
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/12/2017 04:04 pm
Do we know what vessel is towing JRTI back?

A quick browse of marinetraffic is rather bereft of candidates other than a tug named 'Pacific Falcon', which is very appropriately named, but my natural suspicion doesn't want to conclude that SpaceX may be using a vessel of that name to recover Falcon 9s in the Pacific!

Betty R Gambella

Cheers.

Looks like JRTI is alongside in the port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 10/13/2017 05:18 pm
The octagrabber is almost certainly on the barge, so presumably they'll want to use it.

Assuming the first stage behaves itself, we'll no doubt find out at the end of the week.

As far as I can tell, the tug has dropped out of range of (land-based) AIS coverage and was last seen about 8 hours ago, heading east at about 7 knots (which is, iirc, somewhat faster than Elsbeth III usually managed).

MarineTraffic shows Elsbeth III in Port Canaveral.  Nobody tracking the return of OCISLY this time?  I was expecting to see first use of the octograbber.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 10/13/2017 05:23 pm
The octagrabber is almost certainly on the barge, so presumably they'll want to use it.

Assuming the first stage behaves itself, we'll no doubt find out at the end of the week.

As far as I can tell, the tug has dropped out of range of (land-based) AIS coverage and was last seen about 8 hours ago, heading east at about 7 knots (which is, iirc, somewhat faster than Elsbeth III usually managed).

MarineTraffic shows Elsbeth III in Port Canaveral.  Nobody tracking the return of OCISLY this time?  I was expecting to see first use of the octograbber.

See this link... Tug in use (it seems) this outing with OCISLY...
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:430027/mmsi:366943250/imo:9103295/vessel:HAWK (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:430027/mmsi:366943250/imo:9103295/vessel:HAWK)
ELSBETH III was sidelined it seems...  :(

(Details up above this thread)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 10/13/2017 05:26 pm
...  I was expecting to see first use of the octograbber.

It's already been used on the BulgariaSat mission.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/13/2017 05:29 pm
MarineTraffic shows Elsbeth III in Port Canaveral.  Nobody tracking the return of OCISLY this time?  I was expecting to see first use of the octograbber.

Different tug this time - https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:430027/mmsi:366943250/imo:9103295/vessel:HAWK

It's currently out of land-based AIS range and I'm not spending $157 to get access to the satellite AIS data!

The Octagrabber was used last time, so presumably will be used again this time.


Meantime, there are some good photos of B1041 being unloaded in LA:
https://imgur.com/a/Z6cMW
https://imgur.com/a/TbHSe
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: manoweb on 10/13/2017 05:52 pm
Hello, I just read the "octograbber" has already been used. Which thread covers it? I could not easily find it
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 10/13/2017 05:56 pm
Hello, I just read the "octograbber" has already been used. Which thread covers it? I could not easily find it

Here:

Quote
Michael Seeley‏ @Mike_Seeley 1m1 minute ago

Welcome home, #Falcon9. The now twice launched & landed #SpaceX #BulgariaSat1 just returned to port aboard the #OCISLY.  – at Jetty Park Pier

https://twitter.com/Mike_Seeley/status/880407593042182144 (https://twitter.com/Mike_Seeley/status/880407593042182144)

Yep, looks like a Roomba!  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Geron on 10/13/2017 06:13 pm
Looks like that rocket came in "hot". Hotter than usual as those gridfins are super toasted!!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 10/14/2017 08:14 am
From the other thread, BulgariaSat's speed after the re-entry burn was about 600km/h faster than SES-11:

I was really amazed to see that it was showing 6,000 km/h when the entry burn ended, is that a record?

During BulgariaSat-1 launch 1st stage was traveling at 6600km/h hen the entry burn ended.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 10/14/2017 04:21 pm
Interesting video shared to the SpaceX Facebook group regarding the return of the SES-11 booster. She's leaning a bit. Roomba garage is open but you can't see if it's being used or not.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/spacexgroup/permalink/10155923362006318/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: southshore26 on 10/16/2017 02:40 am
Interesting video shared to the SpaceX Facebook group regarding the return of the SES-11 booster. She's leaning a bit. Roomba garage is open but you can't see if it's being used or not.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/spacexgroup/permalink/10155923362006318/

Not used... what’s left of it was still inside or just out front of the garage... hard to tell from the angle I was at.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/18/2017 08:27 am
https://twitter.com/EmreKelly/status/920398227521855490

From looking at the above photograph, three, possibly four containers appear to have been removed from the aft (?) / Octagrabber end of OCISLY - presumably at least one contains the equipment that powers the Thrustmaster pod.

Compare and contrast with this slightly earlier photograph:

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/920042069594435585

The container that was above the Octagrabber's garage is on the deck at the far end of OCISLY, but has now been lifted off entirely.

Working in reverse chronological order, a lightly earlier photo with all the containers in place:

https://twitter.com/Restrantek/status/920232647909105664
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 10/18/2017 11:37 am
https://twitter.com/EmreKelly/status/920398227521855490

From looking at the above photograph, three, possibly four containers appear to have been removed from the aft (?) / Octagrabber end of OCISLY - presumably at least one contains the equipment that powers the Thrustmaster pod.

Compare and contrast with this slightly earlier photograph:

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/920042069594435585

The container that was above the Octagrabber's garage is on the deck at the far end of OCISLY, but has now been lifted off entirely.

Working in reverse chronological order, a lightly earlier photo with all the containers in place:

https://twitter.com/Restrantek/status/920232647909105664

Also note, in the first image, that with the removal of several containers, that particular end of OCISLY is now floating high in the water.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 10/18/2017 12:05 pm
Also note, in the first image, that with the removal of several containers, that particular end of OCISLY is now floating high in the water.
They probably have had to detank all fuel reserves for that thruster on that side, too, so there's a lot of mass gone.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/18/2017 12:36 pm
Also note, in the first image, that with the removal of several containers, that particular end of OCISLY is now floating high in the water.
They probably have had to detank all fuel reserves for that thruster on that side, too, so there's a lot of mass gone.

I saw that and didn't reckon it was down to the weight of the containers alone. I wouldn't be surprised if - for whatever reason - ballast water has been pumped out at that end (/ in at the other end.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 10/18/2017 11:12 pm
Also note, in the first image, that with the removal of several containers, that particular end of OCISLY is now floating high in the water.
They probably have had to detank all fuel reserves for that thruster on that side, too, so there's a lot of mass gone.

I saw that and didn't reckon it was down to the weight of the containers alone. I wouldn't be surprised if - for whatever reason - ballast water has been pumped out at that end (/ in at the other end.

It'll just be the containers.  Keeping ballast (sea) water on board a steel-hulled vessel for no particular reason is a really bad idea, although it's possible they didn't pump the fire (fresh) water out after the last landing and that's making the tilt look worse.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/19/2017 09:00 am
Back of an envelope calculation, with the help of - http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/mcd-spec-sheets_v8-marmac_304.pdf

The barge is 300' x 100', so 91m x 30m

Because the bow and stern of the barge are raked, roughly assume that removes the buoyancy from 10m either end, so work off 70m useful length.

Using the rubbing strakes on the side as a guide, that end is a bit over 1m out of the water more than usual (it's probably more like 4ft, but I'd prefer to under-estimate).

(The fouling of the underwater area suggests she usually draws between 11ft and 12ft).

She's only floating high at the one end, so the additional volume out of the water compared to usual should be:

Length x beam x reduced depth x 0.5 (ie it tapers to nil over the length of the barge)
70m x 30m x 1m x0.5 =1,050m³

Rounding this down a bit, that's about 1,000 metric tons off the displacement - and that's not down to equipment, fuel: they've pumped ballast water out to bring that end out of the water for whatever reason.


From the data sheet, the cargo capacity for Marmac 304 / OCISLY is quoted at 11,318 Short Tons / 10,267 metric tons (this surprised me) - the weight of the containers etc. is going to make virtually no difference to the trim of the barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 10/19/2017 09:52 am
Rounding this down a bit, that's about 1,000 metric tons off the displacement - and that's not down to equipment, fuel: they've pumped ballast water out to bring that end out of the water for whatever reason.

Great envelope usage !

So they're probably performing inspection duty or even repairs.
The last time we've seen them do such a thing IIRC is to patch the hole when an F9 kinda punched through.

It's entirely possible that the fuel tanks in that side of the barge (I assume them to be located under deck, correct ?) were damaged by the fire. If so, there might have be a fire under the deck too, and possibly much worse than up there. At the very least, they'll have to inspect that side for fire damage and maybe they'll have to replace some hull plates or some structure beams.

Edit : Apparently the fuel storage is on deck and there can only be water bellow deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 10/19/2017 02:00 pm
Interesting video shared to the SpaceX Facebook group regarding the return of the SES-11 booster. She's leaning a bit. Roomba garage is open but you can't see if it's being used or not.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/spacexgroup/permalink/10155923362006318/
The post has been edited to say
Quote
Edit: per below this is Bulgariasat 1 (1029.2) not SES-11(1031.2)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 10/20/2017 12:08 am
Using the rubbing strakes on the side as a guide, that end is a bit over 1m out of the water more than usual (it's probably more like 4ft, but I'd prefer to under-estimate).

Allow me to disagree, but I REALLY don't see how you can say that.  The photo referred to (a) has been taken from a significant distance and (b) has been taken at an angle (which would over-emphasize any tilt) so I'd be waiting for a high-res side-on shot before jumping to too many conclusions..

Besides, the specs you linked to give barge height to be roughly 20'.  If usual draft is 11' as you say, that means only 9' (~3m) freeboard under normal conditions.   Because it's floating, trimming high at one end means it'll be sitting (slightly) lower in the water at the other end making it look worse than it really is.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 10/20/2017 12:11 am
It's entirely possible that the fuel tanks in that side of the barge (I assume them to be located under deck, correct ?) were damaged by the fire. If so, there might have be a fire under the deck too, and possibly much worse than up there. At the very least, they'll have to inspect that side for fire damage and maybe they'll have to replace some hull plates or some structure beams.

We know from previous posts in this thread that diesel fuel for the thrusters is stored in large rectangular self-bunded tanks on deck.  The only thing they are allowed to store below deck is water.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 10/20/2017 08:58 am
It's entirely possible that the fuel tanks in that side of the barge (I assume them to be located under deck, correct ?) were damaged by the fire. If so, there might have be a fire under the deck too, and possibly much worse than up there. At the very least, they'll have to inspect that side for fire damage and maybe they'll have to replace some hull plates or some structure beams.

We know from previous posts in this thread that diesel fuel for the thrusters is stored in large rectangular self-bunded tanks on deck.  The only thing they are allowed to store below deck is water.

Oh, thanks, I missed that information ! I corrected my previous post to reflect it.
No fire bellow deck then. Still, my bet is on inspection/repairs.  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/20/2017 08:59 am
Allow me to disagree, but I REALLY don't see how you can say that.  The photo referred to (a) has been taken from a significant distance and (b) has been taken at an angle (which would over-emphasize any tilt) so I'd be waiting for a high-res side-on shot before jumping to too many conclusions..

Besides, the specs you linked to give barge height to be roughly 20'.  If usual draft is 11' as you say, that means only 9' (~3m) freeboard under normal conditions.   Because it's floating, trimming high at one end means it'll be sitting (slightly) lower in the water at the other end making it look worse than it really is.

Trimming one end by moving the ballast to the other end would make the other end sit deeper in the water and from the look of the fouling line, the other end (the bow) is floating at about the right height.

A photograph won't distort vertical distance over such short distances as we're looking at: see the attached quick sketch which shows - if I may be so bold! - that the stern of the barge is *at least* aft / 1m more out of the water than usual. (The rubbing strakes are a known 6ft apart, taken from the barge owner's drawing).

Whatever the numbers, the difference in height is down to more than just the removal of the containers ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/23/2017 06:56 pm
A few photos of OCISLY from last Thursday by user 'pin2hot' on Reddit:

https://imgur.com/a/CwL5w :o
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/26/2017 09:47 am
Fleet update, according to MarineTraffic.

The 'new' tug Hawk is alongside OCISLY's usual berth, along with Go Quest - suggesting they are preparing to depart in the next couple of days.

Elsbeth III is upriver from Jacksonville, in the same place that the Go 'twins' sheltered from Hurricane Irma - so it looks like Hawk has got the OCISLY gig for KoreaSat.

The surprise is Go Searcher - which was last noted off the Cuban coast four days ago, heading for Puerto Rico.

Conceivably if she was being used to deliver something there, she could probably meet up with the rest of the fleet offshore sometime around launch day but otherwise there doesn't seem to be anything at Port Canaveral at the moment which is of a similar type - but no reason to rule out something being borrowed from elsewhere if Go Searcher doesn't return in time.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 10/26/2017 12:27 pm
In the Vandenberg "marine mammal harassment" waiver, they states that the recovery fleet was the asds, the tug, and one support ship.  So Go Searcher's role must always have been experimental (ie, fairing recovery or other experiments).

Tesla/SolarCity is doing big deployments of solar + powerwalls to assist in the Puerto Rico recovery, it's possible that Tesla borrowed Go Searcher for assistance.  Don't know exactly what it's role would be, although maybe cargo shipping a deck full of powerwalls would still be helpful, given the Jones Act.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 10/27/2017 05:30 am

Tesla/SolarCity is doing big deployments of solar + powerwalls to assist in the Puerto Rico recovery, it's possible that Tesla borrowed Go Searcher for assistance.  Don't know exactly what it's role would be, although maybe cargo shipping a deck full of powerwalls would still be helpful, given the Jones Act.

Tesla has built a solar farm to power a storm-damaged children's hospital in Puerto Rico

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-tesla-puerto-rico-20171025-story.html

Quote
Tesla Inc. said it has assembled a solar panel installation and battery storage project at hurricane-battered children’s hospital in Puerto Rico in a humanitarian effort that also illustrates the company’s ability to deliver power quickly.

The Palo Alto electric carmaker and solar energy company tweeted photos of the project showing rows of solar panels being installed in what appears to be a parking lot adjacent to the Hospital del Niño in San Juan.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 10/27/2017 01:21 pm
Cross posting two posts from the public KoreaSat thread last night:

There’s video attached to this tweet:

Quote
Heading out to sea #OCISLY to position for the Falcon return. #KoreaSat5A #OCISLY #SpaceX

https://twitter.com/spacenews360/status/923689120567824384

OCISLY appears to be heading out. HAWK (the tug boat) has left the port.

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:430027/zoom:10
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Raul on 10/30/2017 09:08 am
Mr. Stephen (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:3439091/mmsi:338358000/imo:9744465/vessel:MR_STEVEN/) High Speed Craft (20kn), who left Port Canaveral yesterday at 11:14 UTC is heading to the area of fairing recovery, where previously Go Searcher was operating.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 10/30/2017 10:58 am
That boat looks like the ideal size to put the bouncy castle on the aft deck and be able to maneuver under the returning fairing. Does anybody know the horizontal velocity of a parachute wing. Whats the right name of this parachute type? Anyways maybe about 20 knots?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 10/30/2017 11:40 am
That boat looks like the ideal size to put the bouncy castle on the aft deck and be able to maneuver under the returning fairing. Does anybody know the horizontal velocity of a parachute wing. Whats the right name of this parachute type? Anyways maybe about 20 knots?
On the contrary, the quick replacement of Go Searcher indicates (to me) that there is no fairing-recovery-specific equipment installed on the fairing support ship, and its job is only to visually track the fairing and fish pieces out of the water if possible, which any ship with a crane can do.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 10/30/2017 02:58 pm
There has been a lot of ships switching happening recently !
Is there something going on ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 10/30/2017 03:42 pm
contract expirations? high priority jobs that took them elsewhere?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/30/2017 08:18 pm
Mr.Steven is an interesting bit of kit.

It's technically a crew transfer vessel, presumably designed for gulf oil rigs. Seemingly nothing special. However, it's capable of 32 knots, which is pretty impressive and at 205ft it's hardly small.

It's not dissimilar to the Go 'twins' but has a much larger aft deck and is significantly faster.

If I harboured any desired to land a fairing with a parafoil on the back of a ship, Mr.Steven would be pretty much the sort of thing I'd want to use - there's a good deck area and if you wanted to try tricks with a moving ship catching a fairing to reduce impact speeds, it's just right.

(I'll defer to the better-informed as to whether the intention is to land fairings on something stationary or something moving).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 10/30/2017 08:44 pm
That boat looks like the ideal size to put the bouncy castle on the aft deck and be able to maneuver under the returning fairing. Does anybody know the horizontal velocity of a parachute wing. Whats the right name of this parachute type? Anyways maybe about 20 knots?

Mr.Steven is the right sort of craft to try that sort of trick.

Whether or not that's the intention is another question, but the ability to cruise at 20+ knots would scrub off a lot of the horizontal relative speed of the descending fairing and make it a lot easier to catch with a smaller 'baseball glove'.

IIRC the idea was to catch the fairings on some sort of 'bouncy castle' to stop them getting wet - but that was long enough ago (18 months?) for SpaceX to be several major revisions down the road by now.

(I'd opt for parafoil, but given there are no images of it in known public existence that's merely conjecture)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 10/30/2017 09:04 pm
On the SpaceX facebook page there is a very good discussion of how one can, with a parafoil, land at essentially zero horizontal and vertical velocity at the same time. With very good accuracy. The recovery vessel need not necessarily be doing a Blue (moving at a fixed rate in a fixed direction)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/spacexgroup/?multi_permalinks=10155970476171318

(find the comment thread with Ted Dasher's post in it)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/spacexgroup/?multi_permalinks=10155970476171318&comment_id=10155970885381318 (gets you to a reply I made in that subthread, closer)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: anield on 10/30/2017 09:40 pm
Spacex live webcast did accidentally call OCISLY the fairing recovery boat before correcting himself.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 11/01/2017 10:43 am
According to the AIS data, Mr.Steven (the fast transfer vessel that's standing in for Go Searcher) returned to Port Canaveral around 2300 UCT yesterday (1900 local, I think?)

It (very) briefly visited the 'SpaceX berth' and then moved across to the 'Fishlips' side of the basin, where it's now moored alongside... Go Searcher, which is back from Puerto Rico.

Presumably it didn't have fairings onboard as there wasn't the time to unload them.



EDIT: now that the Port Canaveral webcam is moving again, it's possible to see Mr.Steven tied up alongside Go Searcher pretty clearly - they're just to the west of the webcam at Fishlips.

There's something on the rear deck of Mr. Steven which looks like it's covered in a grey tarpaulin; and is about the right size to be a piece of fairing (judging by the RIB on the deck in front of it).

That said, IIRC any bits of fairing that have been recovered in the past have been offloaded pretty much as soon as the ship got back into port, even if it was the middle of the night - so it doesn't make a lot of sense for there to be a big piece of fairing still sat on the ship in a very visible position.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 11/01/2017 12:52 pm
OTOH, Mr Steven beat Go Quest and OCISLY to port, so it's possible some of the spacex crew is still at sea. They might be waiting to offload until the gang's all home. Or else the usual transport truck is still scheduled to arrive on "port day" so Mr Steven is stuck waiting for it.  IOW standard procedures might be altered given the unusual speed of Mr Steven.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 11/01/2017 01:14 pm
OTOH, Mr Steven beat Go Quest and OCISLY to port, so it's possible some of the spacex crew is still at sea. They might be waiting to offload until the gang's all home. Or else the usual transport truck is still scheduled to arrive on "port day" so Mr Steven is stuck waiting for it.  IOW standard procedures might be altered given the unusual speed of Mr Steven.

This would suggest the fairing was still sitting on the deck of Mr Steven.  I just checked an unmentionable video source, and sure enough there appears to be a clam-shaped something covered with a tarp.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: LastStarFighter on 11/01/2017 06:09 pm
I have a friend down at the Port tonight... will it be pulling into port tonight? What time do they normally bring her into port?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 11/02/2017 11:36 am
If you look back upthread you can find links to marine trackers and you can track go quest directly as she approaches port.  They do tend to wait until low tide IIRC.

But even if your friend beats the ASDS back to port, I'm sure we'd love daylight pictures of the tarped fairing-thing on Mr Steven's deck.  You should be able to get quite close from the parking lot next to fishlips.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 11/02/2017 11:45 am
The fairing-looking thing was unloaded yesterday, chances are it's been moved to the SpaceX building on Magellan Rd.  Their first recovered fairing was still there as of a week ago.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/02/2017 07:22 pm
Cross posting:

Quote
@NASASpaceflight 17:30 at the buoys Hawk just told Port Canaveral 😍😆😝🤓

https://twitter.com/murphypak/status/926177142483881993

Booster return is being covered on the Koreasat 5 UPDATES thread (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43901.0).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vaporcobra on 11/04/2017 09:00 pm
Great view of Roomba, cropped from a photo from Twitter user @NASANate. Intriguingly, below the roasted Roomba there appears to be something the exact dimensions of Roomba taking a similar octagonal shape.

New Roomba, maybe? ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 11/05/2017 04:08 pm
OCISLY on Saturday, 11/5/2017
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vaporcobra on 11/05/2017 07:56 pm
OCISLY on Saturday, 11/5/2017

Gorgeous! Any chance you grabbed a photo a bit further right, where the octagrabber was spotted?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: StuffOfInterest on 11/06/2017 10:29 am
Great view of Roomba, cropped from a photo from Twitter user @NASANate. Intriguingly, below the roasted Roomba there appears to be something the exact dimensions of Roomba taking a similar octagonal shape.

I'm actually more intrigued by the burn pattern on the deck.  Last rocket came in at quite an angle from the looks of things.  Another photo on the Koreasat update page looks down from above and the burn appears to run right off the side of the deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 11/06/2017 11:56 am

I'm actually more intrigued by the burn pattern on the deck.  Last rocket came in at quite an angle from the looks of things.  Another photo on the Koreasat update page looks down from above and the burn appears to run right off the side of the deck.

There was quite a lot of fire post Koreasat.
Is unclean engine shutdown, spewing all of the remaining fuel on the deck, where some of it flashed into a messy fireball coating a side of the stage, and some ran off on fire also a possibility?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 11/06/2017 12:24 pm
There was quite a lot of fire post Koreasat.
Is unclean engine shutdown, spewing all of the remaining fuel on the deck, where some of it flashed into a messy fireball coating a side of the stage, and some ran off on fire also a possibility?

Based on burn patterns on the rocket I would disagree. Looks like a leak from GSE connectors.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 11/06/2017 02:10 pm
"leak from gse connectors" might also mean "planned safing of tanks through gse connectors".  It just so happens that sometimes the safing procedure seems to result in flames, probably due to some other minor leak/fire/smoldering/etc.

We know that the OctaGrabber fire was caused by purged kerosene running across the deck and managing to find the OctaGrabber garage, so I think that should establish that you can't rely on scorch marks on deck to correlate with incoming flight path.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: chrisking0997 on 11/06/2017 04:51 pm
Great view of Roomba, cropped from a photo from Twitter user @NASANate. Intriguingly, below the roasted Roomba there appears to be something the exact dimensions of Roomba taking a similar octagonal shape.

New Roomba, maybe? ;)

that looks significantly beefier than roomba, which AFAIK there would be no need for.  I cant think of a practical structure they need to build right now of that size, so Ill throw out the insane suggestion that its a mount to practice landings on
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 11/06/2017 07:30 pm
It may be coincidence, but location of all of these GSE connectors and burn marks seem to match:
https://flic.kr/p/2198piy
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 11/07/2017 04:23 pm
It may be coincidence, but location of all of these GSE connectors and burn marks seem to match:
https://flic.kr/p/2198piy
The question we need answered is "what goes through those connectors"?  I would expect helium for sure.  Maybe some hydraulics.  Some electrical probably.  Maybe kerosene, I'm starting to believe, because I have yet to see any other umbilical connected to the first stage fuel tank in photos. 

 - Ed Kyle

There are two of those connectors placed 180° from each other. The one on the “front” transfers the LOX, and the one on the “back” transfers RP-1 (this is the one in Marek’s picture he linked). They both have other connections for at least Helium and probably other fluids and electrical.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 11/07/2017 09:36 pm
Here's a short video I made of the post-landing fire.  I still think I see flames coming first from an engine nozzle.

 - Ed Kyle
Purging residual kerosene would be through the nozzle, no?  So the nozzle is the least surprising place I'd expect to see the flames begin.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 11/07/2017 10:45 pm
Purging residual kerosene would be through the nozzle, no?  So the nozzle is the least surprising place I'd expect to see the flames begin.

Actually, kerosene would be the one thing I would think they wouldn't purge.  Two reasons: (a) an oil slick on the ocean would be frowned upon by the ever-watchful greenies and (b) an oil slick on deck could potentially stop the Roomba 'sticking' and would also be extremely hazardous to the boarding crew.

I'd say they got a stuck valve someplace on the stage...

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 11/07/2017 11:10 pm
Purging residual kerosene would be through the nozzle, no?  So the nozzle is the least surprising place I'd expect to see the flames begin.

Actually, kerosene would be the one thing I would think they wouldn't purge.  Two reasons: (a) an oil slick on the ocean would be frowned upon by the ever-watchful greenies and (b) an oil slick on deck could potentially stop the Roomba 'sticking' and would also be extremely hazardous to the boarding crew.

I'd say they got a stuck valve someplace on the stage...

Plus pouring fuel everywhere is just a really bad idea in general.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 11/08/2017 12:53 am
Could it be that residual kerosene is usually deliberately burned off in the engine... But somehow that process has gone a bit awry? (Maybe a stuck valve, maybe a leak, maybe just strong wind or unexpected pooling.)

Or do we think the ASDS brings in S1 with several hundred gallons of kerosene still onboard?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 11/08/2017 01:00 am
There is no burning of residual kerosene. The rocket depressurizes its helium and nitrogen copd’s and opens fuel and oxygen tanks to atmosphere. LOX boils off, kerosene stays and gets unloaded when the rocket is put on the stand. The only thing that gets burned is TEA/TEB.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 11/08/2017 03:32 am
Could it be that residual kerosene is usually deliberately burned off in the engine... But somehow that process has gone a bit awry? (Maybe a stuck valve, maybe a leak, maybe just strong wind or unexpected pooling.)

I'd say they were mighty fortunate they didn't just happen to dump a bunch of residual O2 at the same time.  Fire + Fuel + Oxidiser = the resultant 'bounce' could have been most spectacular indeed!! "Wait, she's off again! Oops!" ;D

Making the most of it, SpX PR Department would probably call it their first "Re-launch Abort Test".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 11/12/2017 04:15 pm
I went to the port today and noticed GO Searcher has some new hardware installed. Wondering what is it for...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 11/12/2017 07:23 pm
I went to the port today and noticed GO Searcher has some new hardware installed. Wondering what is it for...
Is that actually raked toward the camera, or is the top of the rack level with the deck? Seems to be the former, but I can't quite tell.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 11/13/2017 12:45 pm
I'm not 100% sure, but it looks like they are raked towards starboard side.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 11/13/2017 01:28 pm
Doubt it - its just the angle from which the photo was taken. Look at the top of the container on the sister ship, which is further away.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 11/13/2017 01:46 pm
So what is the platform for?
Fairing landing zone?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 11/13/2017 02:23 pm
Well, if one was to recover TWO fairings, both being some 46’ in length, one would perhaps want “bunk bed” them for transport home...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 11/13/2017 02:29 pm
Well, if one was to recover TWO fairings, both being some 46’ in length, one would perhaps want “bunk bed” them for transport home...

bc of the supports below, i dont think they could put one underneath. perhaps theyll put both fairing on top of this? maybe turned 90 with the ends sticking off the sides?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: skel on 11/13/2017 03:03 pm
Well, if one was to recover TWO fairings, both being some 46’ in length, one would perhaps want “bunk bed” them for transport home...

bc of the supports below, i dont think they could put one underneath. perhaps theyll put both fairing on top of this? maybe turned 90 with the ends sticking off the sides?

It looks as though there's some more of that same steel sitting on the deck waiting to be erected. Perhaps the raised area will grow a bit further - possibly by enough to store two halves side by side?

(edited to indicate where the steel is)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 11/13/2017 03:07 pm
Well, if one was to recover TWO fairings, both being some 46’ in length, one would perhaps want “bunk bed” them for transport home...

bc of the supports below, i dont think they could put one underneath. perhaps theyll put both fairing on top of this? maybe turned 90 with the ends sticking off the sides?
It's not 100% convincing that there are vertical supports other then at the sides. With any luck we'll see more shots soon as they complete building it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 11/13/2017 04:34 pm
Well, if one was to recover TWO fairings, both being some 46’ in length, one would perhaps want “bunk bed” them for transport home...

bc of the supports below, i dont think they could put one underneath. perhaps theyll put both fairing on top of this? maybe turned 90 with the ends sticking off the sides?
It's not 100% convincing that there are vertical supports other then at the sides. With any luck we'll see more shots soon as they complete building it.

I do not believe that the left "half" is completely built yet. Note the additional pieces still on the deck by the cribbing blocks.  when placed side by side in a mirror fashion \ / they will make a cradle for the "bouncy castle" .
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 11/13/2017 06:42 pm
OCISLY on Sunday 11/13/2017. Looks like SpaceX has not immediate use for it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Tomness on 11/13/2017 07:42 pm
OCISLY on Sunday 11/13/2017. Looks like SpaceX has not immediate use for it.

next one this week is RTLS, so these guys deserve a break after working hard on repairing the one before last hot landing... :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rogerstigers on 11/13/2017 08:08 pm
OCISLY on Sunday 11/13/2017. Looks like SpaceX has not immediate use for it.

next one this week is RTLS, so these guys deserve a break after working hard on repairing the one before last hot landing... :D

Yup.. and the next east coast launch is also RTLS.  This one is on break until FH, it seems.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 11/14/2017 04:43 pm
OCISLY on Sunday 11/13/2017. Looks like SpaceX has not immediate use for it.

The tie-downs are still welded to the deck, so it doesn't look like there's any hurry to get it fixed - as noted above FH is likely the next landing attempt for OSCILY.

Doesn't look like the erstwhile Octagrabber has had anything done to it either.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: chrisking0997 on 11/14/2017 05:06 pm
is it just me, or are there some sort of racks sitting in the roomba garage?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 11/15/2017 04:21 am
is it just me, or are there some sort of racks sitting in the roomba garage?

yeah. i think those might be the ones that hold a handful of compressed gas canisters. like when theyre torching and welding big jobs in the past those were out and about i think.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 11/15/2017 09:16 pm
OCISLY on Sunday 11/13/2017. Looks like SpaceX has not immediate use for it.

Poor old OCISLY is looking very un-loved: I see far too much rust.  :(

Perhaps, now landings have become "routine", SpaceX are too busy with the rocket side of operations to worry about marine maintenance?
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jimvela on 12/07/2017 10:03 pm
Here's a view from 7 December 2017:

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/08/2017 02:47 am
https://youtu.be/CdqoNKCCt7A
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jimvela on 12/08/2017 02:53 am
While I was taking the picture above, three different cars of people pulled into the parking lot and took cell phone pictures.

That still indicates celebrity status to me, even if it is only rocket geek celebrity.

All three were sets of young folks. Warms my heart
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 12/08/2017 04:13 am
While I was taking the picture above, three different cars of people pulled into the parking lot and took cell phone pictures.

That still indicates celebrity status to me, even if it is only rocket geek celebrity.

All three were sets of young folks. Warms my heart
It's one of the few places where you can see real in-active-use space hardware, competely free and open to the public.  Most expendable rockets are expended, the shuttles are pricey add-ons to expensive museums, KSC and CC are closed to public access---but you can drive right up and park next to Go Quest, and then look across at OCISLY.  Those who work at KSC probably underestimate how cool that access is to the rest of us.

And once SpaceX gets its booster installed outside the control center, the port area is going to be an even bigger draw.  Touch a rocket that's been to space and back, then have a dinner at fishlips and watch OCISLY and the Go Sisters.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: deruch on 12/08/2017 06:18 pm
While I was taking the picture above, three different cars of people pulled into the parking lot and took cell phone pictures.

That still indicates celebrity status to me, even if it is only rocket geek celebrity.

All three were sets of young folks. Warms my heart

I wonder if Fishlips has seen any appreciable increase in business since SpaceX has started using that berth?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 12/11/2017 06:31 pm
While I was taking the picture above, three different cars of people pulled into the parking lot and took cell phone pictures.

That still indicates celebrity status to me, even if it is only rocket geek celebrity.

All three were sets of young folks. Warms my heart

I wonder if Fishlips has seen any appreciable increase in business since SpaceX has started using that berth?

nah
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 12/16/2017 02:18 pm
Quoted from the Fairing thread:

Wonder what a "short term opportunity area" means...

If I remember correctly, someone up-thread said this would be used for storing previously flown Falcon 9 boosters.
I think you're thinking of the 35000 s.f. of land and 77000 s.f. of water that are being added to SpaceX's permit near berths 51 and 52. In any case, we will see later this month what happens to the B1036 booster with the Iridium NEXT-4 flight.

Quote
Backqround: On January 7,2016, the Board approved RP 15-19 to SpaceX for the use
of 35,000 s.f. of land and 77,000 s.f. of water at Berths 51 and 52 along Miner Street in
San Pedro. RP 15-19 allowed for: berthing rights for the Marmac landing barge and
auxiliary vessels; construction of landside improvements including the installation of
rocket support pedestals on a concrete pad; and installation of temporary perimeter
fencing, an office trailer, a guard shack and portable restrooms. SpaceX's premises are
utilized to berth vessels that recover expended rockets and capsules from over 100
miles offshore and return the respective equipment for land based transportation to
various locations.
ln response to the Board's concern regarding insurance limits and coverage under selfinsurance,
the First Amendment to RP 15-19 increased insurance requirements to
provide superior insurance coverage, thereby reducing the Harbor Department's
financial risk exposure arising from SpaceX's operations.
The Second Amendment to RP 15-19 increased permit premises primarily at Berth 53
and adjusted compensation correspondingly. The additional areas provided SpaceX
with access to a wider area such that it can conduct its operations more safely and
efficiently, and also reduce the length of time that Miner Street is shut down, thereby
lessening the impact of SpaceX operations on neighboring tenants. A provision was
also added to allow the Harbor Department to be reimbursed for expenses incurred as a
result of the Tenant's operations such as Port Police fees (escort, street closures, etc.);
Construction & Maintenance costs (placement of k-rails, plumbing and electrical
services, etc.); Engineering fees (inspection fees, etc.); rental fees for use of additional
areas (staging for media, parking, etc.); and other related. costs.
SpaceX has conducted five rocket and capsule recoveries since 2016. On November
15, 2017, SpaceX submitted an application for additional premises in order to
accommodate the MA/ Mr. Steven, a 205-foot long vessel dedicated to recovering the
fairing portion of rockets which protect the spacecraft and reduce drag during flight.

No additional hazardous materials will be brought to the Port. The extended area will
allow a better layout for its operations and allow SpaceX to remove equipment on top of
their sea vans as much as possible, and better contain their equipment behind the
perimeter fencing, away from public view.
The proposed Third Amendment (Transmittal 1) to RP 15-19 modifies the permit
premises by adding a9,143 s.f. land parcel and a 25,500 s.f. submerged land parcel on
the south side of its current premises (Transmittal2), and modifying the compensation
accordingly, from $24,328.73 to $28,095.82 a month. ln anticipation of the vessel's
arrival in mid to late December 2018, SpaceX would like to take possession of the
additional premises by December 15, 2017.
Source: https://www.portoflosangeles.org/Board/2017/December%202017/121417_Regular_Agenda_Item_8.pdf

According to Marine Traffic, Mr.Steven is now at the berth in Port of Los Angeles (adjacent to NRC Quest, which has been used by SpaceX for F9 and Dragon recoveries), presumably preparing to go to sea to try and recover the Iridium fairings.

On the east coast, Elsbeth III is in the Gulf of Mexico; and Hawk is in Tampa - both a fair distance from Port Canaveral. That said, there's probably at a month until a tug is needed to drag OCISLY out to fetch an FH centre core.

The Go 'twins' are both at Port Canaveral.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 12/16/2017 03:32 pm
Seems to me that elsbeth III has been released from SpaceX exclusivity and is now free to take other jobs.  Towing the ASDS is apparently enough of a "standard tow" that they can use whatever tug happens to be free.  Seems like a minor operational refinement to save a few bucks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 12/18/2017 08:13 am
Seems to me that elsbeth III has been released from SpaceX exclusivity and is now free to take other jobs.  Towing the ASDS is apparently enough of a "standard tow" that they can use whatever tug happens to be free.  Seems like a minor operational refinement to save a few bucks.

It does look like SpaceX aren't using Elsbeth III, but it will be interesting to see if they persist with Hawk or switch between tugs depending on availability.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 12/18/2017 07:33 pm
The speculation has always been that eventually the ASDS could self-propel out to the landing zone, so it would only need a harbor tug.  That hasn't happened yet. So there's a spectrum of possible tug requirements ranging from "harbor tug" to "any ocean-going tug which can handle a barge" through "some unique handling requirements and training, so we like to deal with a small number of tugs which have prior experience with ASDS" to "custom SpaceX gear must be installed on the tug and is troublesome to move between tugs".  So, yeah, I'm also interested to see the continued evolution of who gets to tow the ASDS, and how far.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 12/18/2017 09:06 pm
The speculation has always been that eventually the ASDS could self-propel out to the landing zone, so it would only need a harbor tug.  That hasn't happened yet.

For a myriad of reasons, some technical, some legislative, it ain't ever going to happen. Never.  Not without a complete redesign of the thruster arrangement and a re-classification of the barge to somewhere they (and the barge owners) won't want to go. :)

...still and all, AIUI and IIRC, their main reason for retaining the services of EIII was they had a short-term exclusive lease agreement to use her and her people for this and other support roles.  Perhaps that agreement has now expired and they're free to do as they wish?  After all, apart from the extensive experience of the crew (no doubt necessary during the working-up stage), there's nothing particularly special about that tug...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 12/20/2017 01:01 pm
Looks like Mr Steven is sporting the Guice Offshore logo now.  So is it "GO Mr Steven"?

Go Mr Steven!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: geoffc on 12/20/2017 04:36 pm
Looks like Mr Steven is sporting the Guice Offshore logo now.  So is it "GO Mr Steven"?

Wait, GO stands for Guice Offshore?  Does OJ know?   :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 12/21/2017 08:13 pm
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 12/21/2017 08:13 pm
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 12/21/2017 08:14 pm
Some interesting modifications of GO Searcher...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 12/22/2017 01:22 am
looks like that guy on the new upperdeck is drilling holes through that diamond plate into the cross beams with a mag drill

https://www.grainger.com/product/MILWAUKEE-Magnetic-Drill-Press-4A940
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 12/22/2017 01:45 am
There is a ZF cardboard box sitting there. looks like they make boat thrusters. wonder if they are adding or fixing some for finer dragon recovery control.

edit: looks like they make a whole lot of other stuff for boats too, so could be anything

https://www.zf.com/corporate/en_de/products/further_product_ranges/marine/finder.html#finder=27551_27604

its funny i think they also make the electric motor winding maching for tesla
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/22/2017 02:00 am
ZF is a common marine transmission manufacturer. I have ZF transmissions on my twin Cummins 380 HP QSB 5.9 diesels.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 12/22/2017 02:22 am
looks like that guy on the new upperdeck is drilling holes through that diamond plate into the cross beams with a mag drill

https://www.grainger.com/product/MILWAUKEE-Magnetic-Drill-Press-4A940 (https://www.grainger.com/product/MILWAUKEE-Magnetic-Drill-Press-4A940)
What guy?
What drill?
Upper deck?
I don’t even recognize the ship.
I think I see two people conversing.
Can you explain more what you see?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 12/22/2017 02:40 am
looks like that guy on the new upperdeck is drilling holes through that diamond plate into the cross beams with a mag drill

https://www.grainger.com/product/MILWAUKEE-Magnetic-Drill-Press-4A940 (https://www.grainger.com/product/MILWAUKEE-Magnetic-Drill-Press-4A940)
What guy?
What drill?
Upper deck?
I don’t even recognize the ship.
I think I see two people conversing.
Can you explain more what you see?

sorry, in the picture 12-21-2017-003.jpg next to the open door
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 12/22/2017 03:45 am
looks like that guy on the new upperdeck is drilling holes through that diamond plate into the cross beams with a mag drill

https://www.grainger.com/product/MILWAUKEE-Magnetic-Drill-Press-4A940 (https://www.grainger.com/product/MILWAUKEE-Magnetic-Drill-Press-4A940)
What guy?
What drill?
Upper deck?
I don’t even recognize the ship.
I think I see two people conversing.
Can you explain more what you see?

This guy:
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 12/22/2017 07:37 pm
So... The roof they were building on Go Searcher is complete (and level, not tilted), and there's a plastic wrapped box sitting on top now?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 12/22/2017 08:29 pm
So... The roof they were building on Go Searcher is complete (and level, not tilted), and there's a plastic wrapped box sitting on top now?

It seems clear to me these are modifications for dragon recovery and either cargo or crew unloading and storage. You can see the cutout on the aft of the new platform where they will slide dragon up to it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/22/2017 08:35 pm
They installed a lifting A Frame on the stern - the kind used to retrieve submersibles. I’d say Dragon recovery is a good bet. But question - what are they using now for D1 recoveries?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: stcks on 12/22/2017 08:50 pm
They installed a lifting A Frame on the stern - the kind used to retrieve submersibles. I’d say Dragon recovery is a good bet. But question - what are they using now for D1 recoveries?

NRC Quest, right?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 12/22/2017 09:11 pm
They installed a lifting A Frame on the stern - the kind used to retrieve submersibles. I’d say Dragon recovery is a good bet. But question - what are they using now for D1 recoveries?

NRC Quest, right?

Yes. Dragon recovery has migrated through several recovery vessels on the west coast. The most recent being NRC Quest. Seems clear that they are looking for a east coast recovery ship. Either for crew or cargo. If not for primary landings then for aborts or weather contingencies.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 12/24/2017 02:24 am
I guess the Sea Stallion helicopter went the way of the tractor escape tower.
But aren’t we off topic for this ASDS thread?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/31/2017 05:39 pm
Quote
X marks the spot (freshly painted too) to where the center core of Falcon Heavy will land on OCISLY next month.

https://twitter.com/nasa_nerd/status/947515057650352128 (https://twitter.com/nasa_nerd/status/947515057650352128)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 12/31/2017 07:51 pm
Cool new ASDS?
(https://worldmaritimenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/lng.jpg)

I came across http://www.ship-technology.com/projects/christophe-de-margerie-class-icebreaking-lng-carriers/ - and found it interesting in that what would be needed for a somewhat independent ASDS-BFR, with fuel almost exists.

This is an icebreaking capable ship which can carry  enough cryogenic propellant for around thirty launches of BFR/BFS.

It is however $300M - but puts some of the questions of future ASDSs into context.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: D_Dom on 01/01/2018 01:36 am
Article states the steel cutting ceremony was Sept 2015, launched January 2016, ice trials first quarter 2017. WOW!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 01/17/2018 12:10 pm
'Hawk' is back in Port Canaveral as of this morning.

'Elsbeth III' is in the Gulf of Mexico, so that probably answers the question of what's going to be on OCISLY duties for the next recovery / recoveries.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 01/22/2018 05:21 pm
OCISLY photo-bombing a tourists video:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BeOgDeAFCNj/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pb2000 on 01/26/2018 05:19 pm
Anyone got eyes on to see if she's getting dressed up to head out on a date in the next 48 hours or will 1032 be stood up in favour of the sexier 1033?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 01/26/2018 05:22 pm
Anyone got eyes on to see if she's getting dressed up to head out on a date in the next 48 hours or will 1032 be stood up in favour of the sexier 1033?

Next launch is a non recovery
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 01/28/2018 02:19 pm
GO Searcher and GO Quest  left Port Canaveral yesterday (Sat 27th), heading due east. Searcher left around 1:00 pm local followed by Quest at around 3:30 pm.

Probable fairing recovery attempt on GovSat, then maybe loitering at sea (speculation) for FH center core recovery attempt if FH launch schedule holds.

OCISLY + Hawk  should leave port around Friday 2nd/Saturday 3rd for an FH launch on the 6th.



Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 01/29/2018 10:31 pm
Drone ship coordinates for FH core recovery attempt:

29.0055 N
77.1319 W

This is only about 215 miles offshore...

Edit: distance correction
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 01/30/2018 02:45 am
Drone ship coordinates for FH core recovery attempt:
29.0055 N
77.1319 W
This is only about 100 miles offshore, much closer than usual for F9 recovery attempts

Indeed.  According to Raul's map (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1wvgFIPuOmI8da9EIB88tHo9vamo&ll=29.74356937802892%2C-77.26328774139307&z=7) (blue pins), the closest ASDS landing so far was CRS-8's 295 km (183 miles) downrange.  (FYI, it looks like Raul is still showing the original landing location from the FCC application.)

Any reason that they couldn't come in a LOT closer?  Staying clear of leisure boat traffic / shipping lanes so that their range isn't spoiled?

EDIT: whoops, Kabloona miscalculated the downrange distance, it's actually 215 miles. Raul may very well be showing the correct location.  Nevermind :)  Well, my question still stands I guess ...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: stcks on 01/30/2018 02:52 am
FYI, it looks like Raul is still showing the original landing location from the FCC application.

Where is the new application? I think I've missed it somewhere in the noise.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 01/30/2018 03:13 am
So... boostback burn and the boat waiting 100 miles out to catch it...

Keeps most gawkers away...
Out of the ship and airway corridor offshore...
Should make it back "less crispy"
Must of had the spare prop to do it...
I like it...  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 01/30/2018 03:41 am
So... boostback burn

Where is that stated?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 01/30/2018 03:42 am
FYI, it looks like Raul is still showing the original landing location from the FCC application.

Where is the new application? I think I've missed it somewhere in the noise.

Here. It was posted earlier by gongora in the FH Demo thread. And no, I don't know why the application refers to an F9 launch instead of FH. But they seem to do a lot of cut-and-paste in those FCC applications, using a previous application as a template for the next one and just changing the relevant bits, so it's entirely possible someone just forgot to change F9 to FH. We've seen similar cut-and-paste errors in past applications.

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=80084&RequestTimeout=1000
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OneSpeed on 01/30/2018 06:14 am
Probably no boostback burn. If you look in the FH Demo thread at OneSpeed's excellent trajectory analysis, it's likely a highly lofted trajectory that leaves stage one landing just 100 miles downrange with no boostback.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=44778.msg1779029#msg1779029

Thanks. Yes, the STA gongora referenced is here:

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=80084&RequestTimeout=1000

If the STA is still correct, the ASDS would be 342kms downrange, or 212 miles.

Edit: For the core stage to land such a short distance downrange from 3km/s I suspect it will require a boostback burn.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: deruch on 01/30/2018 08:40 am
So... boostback burn

Where is that stated?

It hasn't been.  I think it's a deduction based on the downrange distance at which the ASDS landing is going to take place.  That location is specified in SpaceX's application for temporary spectrum usage from the FCC.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 01/30/2018 11:43 am
Drone ship coordinates for FH core recovery attempt:
29.0055 N
77.1319 W
This is only about 100 miles offshore, much closer than usual for F9 recovery attempts

Indeed.  According to Raul's map (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1wvgFIPuOmI8da9EIB88tHo9vamo&ll=29.74356937802892%2C-77.26328774139307&z=7) (blue pins), the closest ASDS landing so far was CRS-8's 295 km (183 miles) downrange.  (FYI, it looks like Raul is still showing the original landing location from the FCC application.)

Any reason that they couldn't come in a LOT closer?  Staying clear of leisure boat traffic / shipping lanes so that their range isn't spoiled?

Sorry, I miscalculated the ASDS downrange distance. It's about 215 miles, not 100 as I said.

Thanks to OneSpeed for pointing that out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mgeagon on 02/01/2018 04:42 am
Since 1032.2 (GovSat 1) tested a 3 engine landing burn, what would have been the damage to OCISLY if it had been in place. We have seen high energy landings before end up in “toasty” conditions; imagine what 3 times the raptor output would do. Also, is there a thread somewhere for other recovery ships, specifically Go Quest? I’d love to hear thoughts on how they plan to tow the booster back to port. Is there support equipment that can grapple the rocket and lift it out of the water?

Mark Eagon
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Req on 02/01/2018 04:44 am
Since 1032.2 (GovSat 1) tested a 3 engine landing burn, what would have been the damage to OCISLY if it had been in place. We have seen high energy landings before end up in “toasty” conditions; imagine what 3 times the raptor output would do. Also, is there a thread somewhere for other recovery ships, specifically Go Quest? I’d love to hear thoughts on how they plan to tow the booster back to port. Is there support equipment that can grapple the rocket and lift it out of the water?

Mark Eagon

The only time they've tried a 3-engine suicide slam on an ASDS, they landed hard and put a hole in the deck, which required some lengthy repair work.

There is a thread about the support ships:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38111.0

However the coverage of this return is most likely to be in the update and discussion threads for this mission:
Updates:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=44691.0
Discussion:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36807.0

Edit - The exhaust isn't the concern, no problems there.  The engines and octaweb going through something like an 18g deceleration burn and hitting the deck precisely with 0 vertical velocity is the challenge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/01/2018 07:49 am
The Go twins have been used to recover fairing parts, so they have some limited ability there.  Reviewing my pictures, I couldn't see a crane large enough for a full stage on deck. I don't know if they've been called upon to tow before; maybe they will just secure the core and wait for Hawk or another tug to come out and attempt the actual tow.  It seems like you might want to secure some extra flotation devices to the core; those would probably have to be brought out to port along with divers to secure them.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/01/2018 04:44 pm
Crazy ASDS related idea there.

My current understanding based on Musk's public statements and other infos is that the reason behind the booster's water landing is the proximity between FH and GovSat-1 launch campaigns and the fact that if GovSat-1 damaged the ASDS there wouldn't have been time to patch it before FH got up (actually, because of FH's slips, it couldn't even have gone back to port). Since FH recovery took precedence, GovSat-1's booster was doomed to be expanded.

Now, this situation of very close-by launches is likely to happen again in the future.
Since the main concern seemed to be the repair time of the ASDS in case of a hole-punching event, and given the accuracy of the landings we have witnessed in recent times, do you think we could ever see two boosters coming back to port on the same ASDS because there wasn't enough time to bring back one and then go again ? ;D

I must say, now that I piture this in my head, I WANT to see it ! :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 02/01/2018 04:57 pm
I can't ever imagine them risking a safely landed stage that way.  Put another way, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Bananas_on_Mars on 02/01/2018 05:07 pm
I would expect them to go the other route and build something a lot faster for recovery than the ASDS. Do it like Jeff Who is planning.

Maybe even with the capability to lower the rocket and store it below deck?

I think repurposing obsolete ships for this task could be done relatively cheap compared to the price of a booster.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/01/2018 05:18 pm
You know... <thinking out loud>  ;)
I wonder if OctoGrabber II (rest in peace oh toasty I  :'( ) will be able to shuffle a landed stage over to the front end and hold on tight :o a day or two later while a different stage drops in behind it...   ???

Might save the cost/upkeep on a 2nd barge...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 02/01/2018 06:22 pm
No they aren't going to land 2 at once on ASDS and no they aren't going to build a super-fast, landing ship with stowage.  It violates SpaceX principles.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 02/01/2018 06:25 pm
No they aren't going to land 2 at once on ASDS and no they aren't going to build a super-fast, landing ship with stowage.  It violates SpaceX principles.

Has anyone told Elon this though?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 02/01/2018 06:31 pm
Has anyone told Elon this though?

Why would they need to?  It's obvious.

A super-fast landing party ship with stewage though, that's totally consistent with SpaceX principles.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pb2000 on 02/01/2018 06:48 pm
If there's a crane barge handy, I wouldn't discount the possibility of picking the soggy stage a few miles offshore and setting it beside the FH center core and bringing them both in at once.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 02/01/2018 06:50 pm
No they aren't going to land 2 at once on ASDS and no they aren't going to build a super-fast, landing ship with stowage.  It violates SpaceX principles.

Maybe not a super-fast, landing ship with stowage. But with the increase launch tempo. SpaceX will have to consider faster turnabout for their ASDS. Maybe additional ASDS. Otherwise how do you recovered cores if there isn't an ASDS available because they are transporting a embarked core.

The current ASDS speed of about 5 knots under tow is not going to cut it in the future. Ideally some kind of transport that moves at least 20 knots in speed.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/01/2018 07:10 pm
Re: faster recovery vessels
Once SpaceX says they aren't going to do something... or once we very smart forum people decide that it's illogical...

SpaceX NEVER EVER does it anyway. Never.

We decided barges were a really silly idea for downrange landing 4 years ago. We were right. SpaceX didn't do barges. See?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pb2000 on 02/01/2018 07:18 pm
If SpaceX won contracts for missions that required more performance from FH, we might see another droneship for recovering the side boosters and expending the central core, but I doubt we'll see another just to make the logistics easier. In any event, once Iridium launches are done, does SpaceX have any launches on the west coast requiring JRTI anymore?

Edit: Nothing I see on the current manifest requires JRTI, so it could go back to the east coast.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 02/01/2018 07:19 pm
Maybe not a super-fast, landing ship with stowage. But with the increase launch tempo. SpaceX will have to consider faster turnabout for their ASDS. Maybe additional ASDS. Otherwise how do you recovered cores if there isn't an ASDS available because they are transporting a embarked core.

The current ASDS speed of about 5 knots under tow is not going to cut it in the future. Ideally some kind of transport that moves at least 20 knots in speed.

Of course they'll need to solve that issue.  They'll solve it the way SpaceX solves that kind of issue.  And I don't think that we've seen anything to suggest the solution would ideally move 20 knots.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 02/01/2018 07:34 pm
If SpaceX won contracts for missions that required more performance from FH, we might see another droneship for recovering the side boosters and expending the central core, but I doubt we'll see another just to make the logistics easier.
An 'off the shelf' barge with thrustmasters, a rail round the edge, and little else in the way of mods is another option.
They haven't really needed the wings for a while.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 02/01/2018 07:42 pm
Re: faster recovery vessels
Once SpaceX says they aren't going to do something... or once we very smart forum people decide that it's illogical...

SpaceX NEVER EVER does it anyway. Never.

We decided barges were a really silly idea for downrange landing 4 years ago. We were right. SpaceX didn't do barges. See?
Careful Lar - you've just tread into Poe's Law...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/01/2018 10:18 pm
Maybe not a super-fast, landing ship with stowage. But with the increase launch tempo. SpaceX will have to consider faster turnabout for their ASDS. Maybe additional ASDS. Otherwise how do you recovered cores if there isn't an ASDS available because they are transporting a embarked core.

The current ASDS speed of about 5 knots under tow is not going to cut it in the future. Ideally some kind of transport that moves at least 20 knots in speed.

Of course they'll need to solve that issue.  They'll solve it the way SpaceX solves that kind of issue.  And I don't think that we've seen anything to suggest the solution would ideally move 20 knots.

So, what do you think "The way SpaceX solves that kind of issue" involves then ?
 - Obviously not rainbows and magic (although with Elon in charge ... who knows ...).
 - You're saying no to faster recovery ships.
 - You're saying no to several boosters on one ship (although my comment was intended to be a crazy idea, I do think there may be some sense to doing that if you can reliably land a booster precisely enough to be able to land back on launch mount)
 - Are you suggesting a whole fleet of ASDSes ? Even though ASDS recovery is not the majority of the launches, it may become quite frequent if they launch once a day eventually.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/01/2018 10:20 pm
If SpaceX won contracts for missions that required more performance from FH, we might see another droneship for recovering the side boosters and expending the central core, but I doubt we'll see another just to make the logistics easier.
An 'off the shelf' barge with thrustmasters, a rail round the edge, and little else in the way of mods is another option.
They haven't really needed the wings for a while.

You're forgetting that the 'wings' serve a couple of purposes - not just additional landing area - and that even adding thrustmasters to an empty barge, you still need: station-keeping/nav, satellite & terrestrial video/telemetry links, fire-fighting pipework and pumps, a Roomba (and garage), power supply for all the above, etc. etc.

SpX isn't NASA, so please don't think for a second that anything installed on the current crop of ASDS's isn't actually required, 'cause if you did you'd be wrong.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/01/2018 10:29 pm
Maybe not a super-fast, landing ship with stowage. But with the increase launch tempo. SpaceX will have to consider faster turnabout for their ASDS. Maybe additional ASDS. Otherwise how do you recovered cores if there isn't an ASDS available because they are transporting a embarked core.

The current ASDS speed of about 5 knots under tow is not going to cut it in the future. Ideally some kind of transport that moves at least 20 knots in speed.

Of course they'll need to solve that issue.  They'll solve it the way SpaceX solves that kind of issue.  And I don't think that we've seen anything to suggest the solution would ideally move 20 knots.

Seriously..  If SpaceX really wanted to get an ASDS and landed stage back to port in a hurry, all they need to do is give Dockwise a call.   ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 02/02/2018 02:28 am
So, what do you think "The way SpaceX solves that kind of issue" involves then ?
 - Obviously not rainbows and magic (although with Elon in charge ... who knows ...).
 - You're saying no to faster recovery ships.
 - You're saying no to several boosters on one ship (although my comment was intended to be a crazy idea, I do think there may be some sense to doing that if you can reliably land a booster precisely enough to be able to land back on launch mount)
 - Are you suggesting a whole fleet of ASDSes ? Even though ASDS recovery is not the majority of the launches, it may become quite frequent if they launch once a day eventually.

It involves no more complexity, expense, risk than necessary to solve the problem.  Therefore, in all liklihood, that will mean an additional ASDS when necessary to meet the need.

I'm not saying No to faster recovery ships.  I said nothing has shown me that 20 knots or more is somehow "ideal" and essentially dismissed the tempting but ultimately silly notion of a specialized high-speed stowage solution.  I doubt that faster is very important but don't dismiss that incremental improvement might be achievable.

Landing two on an ASDS.  Which is it?  Crazy or not?  Of course, you can be accurate enough to do it ... when that accuracy works out for you and nothing bad happens.  I'd be suprised if the landing thrust wasn't a major issue for the already landed stage.  Hard landing, high seas, stages "walking" around the deck?  The rocket business even with Elon involved just doesn't do gimmicks like that.

Whole fleet?  If that's what it comes to.  If that cadence happens, it will evolve organically and can be planned for leveraging the known simple solution rather than sinking more money in a sexier option.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/02/2018 02:43 am
No they aren't going to land 2 at once on ASDS and no they aren't going to build a super-fast, landing ship with stowage.  It violates SpaceX principles.
The only principle SpaceX has is that they don't have principles. 

They apply common sense, and are not shy of doing things differently as needed.

Also they don't get attached to designs, and have no problem moving on to bigger and better things without crossing off everything on their to-do list.

As for "two-fer" landings, it's a simple insurance calculation.  I think it'll come out that an extra barge is cheaper, but I don't have the numbers.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gongora on 02/02/2018 03:04 am
I don't think the need for an extra ASDS will happen very often.  After SpaceX finally catches up on their manifest, and aren't in a hurry to launch a test flight of a new vehicle, they may be able to sequence flights a little better and avoid the problem.  There really aren't so many barge landings needed for a 30-40 flight manifest that you can't get by with one east coast ship (unless you have to go really far downrange for a FH core some day.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mgeagon on 02/02/2018 10:09 am
If SpaceX is planning 30 launches per year over the next two calendars, may we assume at least 24 per annum will take place from Florida? If so, how many will need an ASDS? It seems likely that all Falcon Heavy launches will require at least one, as there are only two RTLS pads and there are no payloads large enough for FH to go expendable. Clearly, all GEO sats that can land on an ASDS will be launched on the Falcon 9 because of cost. So, there is still a lot of work ahead for OCISLY. With a methodical cadence of 2 launches per month and no anomalies, one, slow drone ship should be able to handle the load. OTOH, GovSat 1 proves that there can be unexpected bottlenecks due to all things that moves schedules right. When future block 5 F9s are entered into the rotation, SpaceX is likely to resist making them expendable simply because of ASDS unavailability. The impulse will be to delay launches, which obviously impacts cadence. At some point, at least a second ASDS will become a consideration; if for no other reason, launch reliability. Why not? Their cost of acquisition is relatively low compared to a lost S1 or lost customer.

There has been some discussion about improving the ASDSs by increasing speed. It is not certain this is ideal. Although, welding the legs to the deck, or having an octo-grabber that actually works (to be determined, not proven) gives some security to the candle-holder, added velocity is not your friend. Because of the Force equation F=MA and acceleration being the square of velocity, an increase of 15 knots results in the impact of a swell being 225 times the force applied to the precarious rocket. The current model of landing on a platform at sea and bringing the stage back to land upright does not reward haste.

A more elegant solution may be found by building a ship that can hoist the landed Falcon 9 at sea, place it on a mount, rotate it horizontal (perhaps onto a transport trailer) and steam back to port at high speed. This would keep the ASDS in the sea-landing zone indefinitely. Even with varying trajectories, it would have a several day head start. You may still want a second drone ship for a back-up or bottlenecks, but one will always be on or near station. The transport ship would only need to be as big as necessary, although double capacity would allow lingering if two launches occur, say within a day of each other. Other than that, modern coastal support ships can easily do 30 knots, depending on sea conditions and could have S1 back to port in half a day. Imagine what kind of wear and tear that might save having the bird not exposed to the elements for 3 days plus; not to mention that it is much easier to shrink wrap the rocket once it is horizontal.

Mark Eagon
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Perchlorate on 02/02/2018 11:01 am
Mark, the "225 times" is not right.  The ratio of force is proportional to the square of the RATIO of velocity, not the increase in velocity.  If the current typical velocity is 5 kt, increasing to 10 kt (a factor of 2) will increase the kinetic energy of the vessel by 4.  Your "225" would only be right if the speed of the vessel were increased from 1.07 kt to 16.07 kt (a 15 kt increase), because 16.07/1.07 = 15.

Also, in a relatively calm sea...or with a really large, stable vessel...stresses on the stage would not be so much affected by its speed.

[ ... not that this detracts from your primary point. ]


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/02/2018 11:41 am
A more elegant solution may be found by building a ship that can dismount the landed Falcon 9 at sea, place it on a mount, rotate it horizontal (perhaps onto a transport trailer) and steam back to port a high speed.

I quite like this support ship idea. Although removing the legs and handling the stage as is currently done for recovery operations might not be very practical at sea unless you use a rigid structure to allow access.
At the very least, you could have a crane on the support ship to grab the stage and lift it off the ASDS to place it on a specialized holding structure.

If deemed necessary, you could easily imagine having the ship lingering away from the ASDS with the support ships and safely transporting several stages if there's enough room.
If they manage to bring the stages horizontal on ship, they could even protect the stage from the elements by simply putting a tarp on it. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: LouScheffer on 02/02/2018 12:06 pm
I'd be surprised if they don't build an extra ASDS at some point.  It's a single point of failure in their business model.  If one goes out of commission, for any reason, then they lose at least one coast's worth of ASDS missions for the time required to build a new one (or don't recycle the boosters are $40 million or so each).

Plus that way they can schedule maintenance, inspections, experiments, and so on, without impacting their missions.  Sure, usually they can schedule around these problems, but fewer constraints is a big help when trying to reach a fast and steady cadence.

Finally, if they ever had a big enough FH mission, they could land two boosters down-range, and the core even further out (assuming an ASDS fits through the new Panama canal, which I think it does).   

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 02/02/2018 01:42 pm
I'd be surprised if they don't build an extra ASDS at some point.  It's a single point of failure in their business model.  If one goes out of commission, for any reason, then they lose at least one coast's worth of ASDS missions for the time required to build a new one (or don't recycle the boosters are $40 million or so each).

Plus that way they can schedule maintenance, inspections, experiments, and so on, without impacting their missions.  Sure, usually they can schedule around these problems, but fewer constraints is a big help when trying to reach a fast and steady cadence.

Finally, if they ever had a big enough FH mission, they could land two boosters down-range, and the core even further out (assuming an ASDS fits through the new Panama canal, which I think it does).   

I expect you're right. We've seen a number of instances when the ASDS was out of commission for some time: after the hole punch landing, the drydock inspection, etc. The only reason the single ASDS hasn't yet severely crimped their recovery efforts is that those downtimes occurred before their launch tempo picked up.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AncientU on 02/02/2018 01:42 pm
The ASDS approach is always going to be slow, so if that (a barge) remains the landing platform, I suggest that they'll keep it at sea for long periods and start removing landed stages with a fast-return vessel.  Recall that the new stages will have folding legs -- this could simplify laying recovered boosters down on the deck of this fast-return vessel.  Biggest challenge would be grabbing the stage at sea to hoist it over... this could be done with a stabilized platform mounted crane on the fast-return ship, or a stabilized platform on both the ASDS and the fast ship.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 02/02/2018 02:52 pm
The ASDS approach is always going to be slow, so if that (a barge) remains the landing platform, I suggest that they'll keep it at sea for long periods and start removing landed stages with a fast-return vessel.  Recall that the new stages will have folding legs -- this could simplify laying recovered boosters down on the deck of this fast-return vessel.  Biggest challenge would be grabbing the stage at sea to hoist it over... this could be done with a stabilized platform mounted crane on the fast-return ship, or a stabilized platform on both the ASDS and the fast ship.

I'd be very interested in seeing the math on these novel solutions.

ASDS Capital Cost; ASDS Operational Cost; ASDS Round-Trip Time; Number of ASDS required to meet cadence

vs.

Fast Return Capital Cost; Fast Return Operational Cost; Fast Return Round-Trip Time (including additional at-sea operations); Number of Fast Return Vessels; Factor for Extra Hardware Type; Factor for delta at-sea operational risk; Factor for delta RUD risks

Admittedly, I'm working from the gut here (and a 1st post lesson from Jim about Solutions needing to solve a Problem) but I don't see the trades favoring a novel approach.  I don't think it's even close.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 02/02/2018 03:50 pm
As  F9 / FH evolve, the cadence of ASDS landings should remain relatively stable, with RTLS dominating.

A second east coast barge and faster tugs (eg Hawk) should be enough to deal with landings, accidents notwithstanding.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mgeagon on 02/02/2018 04:43 pm
Mark, the "225 times" is not right.  The ratio of force is proportional to the square of the RATIO of velocity, not the increase in velocity.
You are quite right and I am mistaken. An increase of 15 knots from 5 to 20 is a ratio of 1:4, so the force is increased 16 times, which is still significant, though nowhere close to what I was talking about. If a wave stopped the ship cold, the torsional impact would be theoretically the ratio of 5 to 0 or 20 to 0, which is only for example and certainly not possible with water wave of any magnitude. I will stop and leave the math to others, however, transporting an upright rocket at sea appears to best be done slowly and carefully.

Horizontal is the friend of safe, fast transport, whether by sea or overland.

Mark Eagon
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Steve D on 02/02/2018 06:08 pm
Why bring them back on a barge at all. Partially refuel them after landing on the ASDS and fly them back to the shore. Nothing would be quicker then that. Wouldn't take much fuel and you would be back in minutes. I seem to recall Elon saying something to this effect a few years ago.
Steve
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 02/02/2018 07:04 pm
As  F9 / FH evolve, the cadence of ASDS landings should remain relatively stable, with RTLS dominating.

A second east coast barge and faster tugs (eg Hawk) should be enough to deal with landings, accidents notwithstanding.

I'd agree with this wholeheartedly (mostly do) except that I'd expect that BFR may well not come along fast enough to preclude the need for a very high cadence of FH launches in support of Starlink.  Other than that, and that's still sometime off, an extra ASDS or so is all that's necessary and even that can probably be forestalled for a long time for anything other than sensible insurance.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 02/02/2018 08:08 pm
I'd agree with this wholeheartedly (mostly do) except that I'd expect that BFR may well not come along fast enough to preclude the need for a very high cadence of FH launches in support of Starlink.  Other than that, and that's still sometime off, an extra ASDS or so is all that's necessary and even that can probably be forestalled for a long time for anything other than sensible insurance.

FH seems rather unlikely to be worth it for starlink unless you assume very, very dense packing, or perhaps a much larger fairing.

I tried to work out a reasonably packing density consistent  with the various statements on on orbit size, size, weight, consistency with GRACE, and iridium satellites apparent density and came out with a rough number of ~55 starlink sats in F9, just exceeding the lift mass. (24000kg). (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=44288.msg1765021#msg1765021)

Unless you can get considerably denser than the industry average, which could be true of course, to use FH meaningfully for starlink means a very enlarged fairing.

Only if FH turns out to be considerably operationally cheaper to run than three F9s would it make much sense to do lots of FH launches.

An interesting question is - never mind reusability - what happens to the cost of F9S2 if you gear up to build a hundred.

With around 33-100 or so launches of FH (with enlarged fairing) or F9 in the next few years to support the initial ~4000 sat constellation, and at least double that for the follow-on (if BFR doesn't happen promptly), scheduling conflicts (even assuming SpaceX doesn't go into launching starlink competitors) seem likely enough to want more ASDS of some description.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AncientU on 02/02/2018 08:17 pm
The Starlink launches won't be determining if they can RTLS... which is what you'd want if you are going to do approximately weekly launches of a set payload like this.  If they have to be landed at sea and all launch from the same site, they'll need something much better than ASDS approach because two barges still would be inadequate, or only leave a bit of breathing room between alternate launches for ASDS repositioning. And there are still those other pesky paying customers...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 02/02/2018 08:31 pm
Why bring them back on a barge at all. Partially refuel them after landing on the ASDS and fly them back to the shore. Nothing would be quicker then that. Wouldn't take much fuel and you would be back in minutes. I seem to recall Elon saying something to this effect a few years ago.
Steve

There is the mountain of paperwork and man-hours required to get the regulatory approval process going to fly a ballistic vehicle toward populated areas.  ::) The FAA will likely reject any proposal like this IMO.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 02/02/2018 08:34 pm
The Starlink launches won't be determining if they can RTLS... which is what you'd want if you are going to do approximately weekly launches of a set payload like this.  If they have to be landed at sea and all launch from the same site, they'll need something much better than ASDS approach because two barges still would be inadequate, or only leave a bit of breathing room between alternate launches for ASDS repositioning. And there are still those other pesky paying customers...


RTLS has noticable penalty, and that adds up over the number of launches, unless they are in fact volume constrained.
'New' ASDS, once you count resale value can be a small fraction of even one launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/02/2018 09:02 pm
Idea To increase ASDS "capacity" to catch stages...  ???

How about a decent sized purpose build floating dry dock with big swivel thrusters and GPS station keeping...
Put all the SpaceX equipment on this dry dock boat (sat relays, fire fighting equipment, etc)
Maybe even armor it and consider remaining manned during a landing...  ;D
A purpose built ship in other words...  ;)

BUT... it has room in the dry well for at least two off the shelf, nothing special, flat top sea going barges...

Put it to sea for a time downrange... made to stay out for weeks if needed...
Sea going tugs (like HAWK) can shuttle flattop barges in and out to port with landed F9 S1's on the return trips...
Equip at least one other barge as a warehouse and tanker to bring fresh supplies out between landings...
Also set it up to take boats like the Go twins and Tugs alongside to transfer crew and small supplies...
A helipad over the crew end section would be a plus...

Point is... there are ways to solve a rapid fire catching stages need, without building complex crane handling schemes and super sized ships... or refueling and reflying stages to land
The simple flat top barges are like pallets... land on it... tie the stage down vertially... float it in as time allows...
The dry dock serves to create a mobile lagoon of sorts for those barge/pallets to be tied up and stay in the right place when they need too...
And the whole thing can be pumped dry and moved faster to a different spot when the mission changes on them.

Just a random thought on the subtopic ongoing...  ;)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: TorenAltair on 02/02/2018 10:39 pm
I see so far no real need for a second drone ship or otherwise new ships. After clearing their backlog they face the crucial task (like Blue Origin and others aiming for a high launch rate): there are by far not that many launches a year that would require new drone ships and the like. Even if somehow a significant new market develops (which is that crucial task all will have to solve) by that time new craft like BFR will be flying.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 02/02/2018 10:45 pm
The simple flat top barges are like pallets... land on it... tie the stage down vertially... float it in as time allows...

Skip the 'dry dock'. ASDS is a smart barge; slave up a dumb barge along side. Land on the dumb barge, utilizing the ASDS facilities. Disconnect the two barges after landing and have a separate tug bring back the rocket. Repeat indefinitely until schedule allows an ASDS landing and return. Same idea as above, but recognizes that you have the equipment already. Simple, with minimal cost. Worst case is if the Thrustmasters are too small for the 2 barge combo and require upgrades.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 02/03/2018 02:22 am
Back in the real world, HAWK heading out now with OCISLY after what looked like a false start.

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/959624880269479936
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: octavo on 02/03/2018 04:01 am
Why bring them back on a barge at all. Partially refuel them after landing on the ASDS and fly them back to the shore. Nothing would be quicker then that. Wouldn't take much fuel and you would be back in minutes. I seem to recall Elon saying something to this effect a few years ago.
Steve

There is the mountain of paperwork and man-hours required to get the regulatory approval process going to fly a ballistic vehicle toward populated areas.  ::) The FAA will likely reject any proposal like this IMO.
Why couldn't it just land back at LZ-1 after refueling on the asds? The FAA seems fine with that?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 02/03/2018 04:11 am
Why bring them back on a barge at all. Partially refuel them after landing on the ASDS and fly them back to the shore. Nothing would be quicker then that. Wouldn't take much fuel and you would be back in minutes. I seem to recall Elon saying something to this effect a few years ago.
Steve

Not going to happen.  Need the same kind of support as the launch pad and cape
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 02/03/2018 04:29 am
I don't think it is going to happen either, but the Grasshopper test bed did not seem to need the sort of infrastructure present at the cape. I took off from a launch mount, appeared to have no propellant feed lines, umbilicals, etc. Not sure how they tanked it up, but the spot it took off from was pretty austere.

Mattew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 02/03/2018 01:20 pm
Back in the real world, HAWK heading out now with OCISLY after what looked like a false start.

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/959624880269479936

'Wait, you should stick that crane on, for recovery of unspecified floating debris'.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 02/03/2018 04:28 pm
What does folks think of this unlikely scenario.

SpaceX and Blue agree to share the cost of operating a large ocean launch recovery ship. Since for the New Glenn's core to be recoverable at least one ship have to be acquired. SpaceX will get the use a large fast recovery ship. The ship could be in action to support Falcon Heavy center core mid-Atlantic recovery as soon as it is acquired. A shared recovery ship will be cheaper for both parties along with less regulatory paperwork, since they will split the cost and reduce the down time for the ship.

Of course hell will freezes over before this happened.  ;D  But technically should work.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/03/2018 10:54 pm
A lot of not quite duplicate equipment to duplicate.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 02/04/2018 01:18 am
What does folks think of this unlikely scenario.

SpaceX and Blue agree to share the cost of operating a large ocean launch recovery ship. Since for the New Glenn's core to be recoverable at least one ship have to be acquired. SpaceX will get the use a large fast recovery ship. The ship could be in action to support Falcon Heavy center core mid-Atlantic recovery as soon as it is acquired. A shared recovery ship will be cheaper for both parties along with less regulatory paperwork, since they will split the cost and reduce the down time for the ship.

Of course hell will freezes over before this happened.  ;D  But technically should work.

Well, there currently are 2 decommissioned non-Nuke US Navy Aircraft Carriers in Port of Brownsville being disassembled. Possibilities do exist to use these as BFR Launch Landing platform or MaxiASDS
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/04/2018 04:21 am
Well, there currently are 2 decommissioned non-Nuke US Navy Aircraft Carriers in Port of Brownsville being disassembled. Possibilities do exist to use these as BFR Launch Landing platform or MaxiASDS
If this thread had a drinking game, " decommissioned aircraft carriers" would be a trigger phrase.

The fuel and headcount to run one of these makes this idea a nonstarter. A surplus oil tanker also burns fuel but at least doesn't need a crew of hundreds
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 02/04/2018 04:29 am
Well, there currently are 2 decommissioned non-Nuke US Navy Aircraft Carriers in Port of Brownsville being disassembled. Possibilities do exist to use these as BFR Launch Landing platform or MaxiASDS
If this thread had a drinking game, " decommissioned aircraft carriers" would be a trigger phrase.

The fuel and headcount to run one of these makes this idea a nonstarter. A surplus oil tanker also burns fuel but at least doesn't need a crew of hundreds
Lar, I think you’re simply missing a proper sense of scale...

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/3ab302987aa1e53012b015ec7633d151.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: octavo on 02/04/2018 04:31 am
Well, there currently are 2 decommissioned non-Nuke US Navy Aircraft Carriers in Port of Brownsville being disassembled. Possibilities do exist to use these as BFR Launch Landing platform or MaxiASDS
If this thread had a drinking game, " decommissioned aircraft carriers" would be a trigger phrase.

The fuel and headcount to run one of these makes this idea a nonstarter. A surplus oil tanker also burns fuel but at least doesn't need a crew of hundreds
Put a giant solar farm on the deck and some Tesla powerpacks. Problem solved
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/04/2018 04:38 am
Party thread virus spreading...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 02/04/2018 05:07 am
Party thread virus spreading...
Have you ever watched a Falcon 9 launch [1]? You know how the LOX vents through the OPV as the pressure builds prior to launch?

Yeah, that’s what’s happening here. I say give it three days and I bet things’ll settle down...

[1] Needs no footnote. Answer was obvious before question was even asked. [2]

[2] Hate pointless footnotes [2]
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/06/2018 05:44 pm
NSF eyes on Go Searcher, back in port Canaveral.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=44587.msg1783364.msg#1783364
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/06/2018 06:41 pm
According to midnightrider, there are folks walking around on the deck of Go Searcher.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 02/06/2018 11:56 pm
Elon said in the post-launch presser that the FH center core hit the water at 300 mph, about 100 yards from OCISLY.

Good thing it missed, because the beefed-up core at 300 mph would probably have punched a hole right through the barge, and not a small one like last time.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 02/07/2018 01:14 am
Elon said in the post-launch presser that the FH center core hit the water at 300 mph, about 100 yards from OCISLY.

Good thing it missed, because the beefed-up core at 300 mph would probably have punched a hole right through the barge, and not a small one like last time.

Yep.  As it was, the overpressure wave seems to have damaged two of the ASDS's Thrustmasters.

When is the next time they'll want to be recovering a core on OCISLY?  And how fast do you think the Thrustmaster replacement can get done?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IanThePineapple on 02/07/2018 01:24 am
Elon said in the post-launch presser that the FH center core hit the water at 300 mph, about 100 yards from OCISLY.

Good thing it missed, because the beefed-up core at 300 mph would probably have punched a hole right through the barge, and not a small one like last time.

Yep.  As it was, the overpressure wave seems to have damaged two of the ASDS's Thrustmasters.

When is the next time they'll want to be recovering a core on OCISLY?  And how fast do you think the Thrustmaster replacement can get done?

I bet they have some spares ready or somewhat easily accessible (Amazon? ;) )

The next East mission is Hispasat, which probably won't land.

After that comes TESS, which might be able to RTLS. But that's in late March (currently), so they have plenty of time.

After TESS comes "Bangabandhu-1" (Glorious name), which is a 3500kg GTO payload. I'm wondering if that could RTLS, but it might require OCISLY.

I think they might be fine
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/07/2018 09:06 pm
If anyone with satellite sourced position info would care to comment...  ???

The current position, course and speed of the tug HAWK and support ship GO QUEST may shed some light on how bad OCISLY is hurt...  :(

My guess, is they have no choice but to drag her in with two thrusters down and dead in the water...
Sounds like [1] it took quite the "shotgun blast" of debris when the center stage crashed alongside...
This will limit towing speed I fear, and it may be late this weekend before we see them again...  :P

[1] from public and internet sources, no inside knowledge of mine to be clear...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 02/07/2018 10:34 pm

ASDS only uses the thrusters for station keeping and not propulsion. So to that end, it's always "dead in the water". Therefore it'll be the same transit time back to the port. So I expect it in on Saturday.

If anyone with satellite sourced position info would care to comment...  ???

The current position, course and speed of the tug HAWK and support ship GO QUEST may shed some light on how bad OCISLY is hurt...  :(

My guess, is they have no choice but to drag her in with two thrusters down and dead in the water...
Sounds like [1] it took quite the "shotgun blast" of debris when the center stage crashed alongside...
This will limit towing speed I fear, and it may be late this weekend before we see them again...  :P

[1] from public and internet sources, no inside knowledge of mine to be clear...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 02/08/2018 12:13 am

ASDS only uses the thrusters for station keeping and not propulsion. So to that end, it's always "dead in the water". Therefore it'll be the same transit time back to the port. So I expect it in on Saturday.


AIUI, the one thing that could slow down the tow back would be if the Thrustmasters were damaged such that they could not be pulled up, out of the water, into their tow positions.  If they have to be left in the down/deployed position used during station-keeping, that increases drag and slows the tow.

Doesn't indicate bad damage to the ASDS itself, just to the thrusters...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Boost on 02/08/2018 08:30 am
Where is OCISLY ? I'd like to take some pictures when it gets back to port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 02/08/2018 11:29 am
Where is OCISLY ? I'd like to take some pictures when it gets back to port.

Presumably inbound into Port Canaveral, arrival time unknown.

The ASDS is being towed by the tug 'Hawk', which can be stalked followed via Marine Traffic (data isn't current and won't be until the vessel comes within range of the port-based receiving station): https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:430027/mmsi:366943250/imo:9103295/vessel:HAWK
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: clegg78 on 02/08/2018 05:46 pm
This Twitter User is posting pics of it coming into port:

https://twitter.com/TechSpatiales
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 02/08/2018 05:57 pm
At first glance she looks relatively unscathed.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: chrisking0997 on 02/08/2018 07:39 pm
Im a little late on this one, but is the lifting frame on Go Searcher the same grey frame we had previously seen sitting on the dock (that speculation was might be a second roomba)?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: BradyKenniston on 02/08/2018 08:46 pm
Photos of OCISLY in port from today. Looked relatively undamaged from what I could see.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/08/2018 11:16 pm
Photos of OCISLY in port from today. Looked relatively undamaged from what I could see.

Yep, a few scraps of aluminium shrapnel aren't likely to do much against her tough steel hull.

She IS looking a little grotty around the waterline though and that marine growth won't help her towing speed, either out or back.  I note she's due for an out-of-water survey in September so perhaps they'll hold off on hull maintenance (and anti-foul) until then.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/09/2018 05:46 am
I am not sure what such a high velocity pressurized but empty cylinder does when it hits water...  But there is a possibility it generates a strong shock wave, depth-charge like, and that knocked out the motors without really showing bent steel...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 02/09/2018 12:59 pm
The drive units themselves seem much more robust than the hydraulic lines powering them.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/09/2018 02:53 pm
The drive units themselves seem much more robust than the hydraulic lines powering them.
OTOH, the hydraulic fluid is flammable, AIUI, and I'd be surprised if a line severed by a piece of hot shrapnel didn't result in at least a small fire.  A fire would have left visible marks I'd think.

I'm going with the "temporary fault condition, easily cleared and reset, minimal actual hardware damage" theory, at least until we see better pictures of the deck with smudges or leak evidence.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/09/2018 03:26 pm
https://youtu.be/XuDErVOliS8 (https://youtu.be/XuDErVOliS8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/10/2018 05:41 am
Quote
#SpaceX #DroneShip #OCISLY aerial view.

https://twitter.com/cygnusx112/status/962107947001303041
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: darkenfast on 02/10/2018 06:40 am
What is the white object aft of the black box on Go Searcher?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 02/10/2018 07:43 am
What is the white object aft of the black box on Go Searcher?


Looks like a Dragon 2, guessing this is to practice water recovery operations for CCrew.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/10/2018 07:46 am
What is the white object aft of the black box on Go Searcher?

Not sure, but it was not there earlier in the day...
https://youtu.be/XuDErVOliS8?t=2m50s
My guess is a Dragon 2 analog to test out the new rear arch crane recently added to that boat...  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 02/10/2018 10:33 am
What is the white object aft of the black box on Go Searcher?
My guess is a Dragon 2 analog to test out the new rear arch crane recently added to that boat...  8)

The black box looks almost the right size to cover the D2, when the D2 is slid under it - assuming one side hinges.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/10/2018 01:07 pm
Cross-posting:


SpaceX Hired Company to Destroy Floating GovSat Booster, Not USAF
http://www.americaspace.com/2018/02/09/spacex-hired-company-to-destroy-floating-govsat-booster-not-usaf/
Quote
AmericaSpace has since learned that the Air Force was, instead, initially considered to take care of the job, but a commercial company of demolition specialists was eventually hired to safely destroy the hazardous booster.

Again, not the USAF; no strike by the U.S. military was carried out on the Falcon 9.


We tracked a US-flagged tender named Manisee out from the Bahamas which met up with Go Searcher at sea. It is now tied up next to http://www.kairosmaritime.com/ -- I'm guessing they were the commercial company (although they probably contracted out the actual scuttling experts).

Manisee could also have ferried out fuel or engine repair supplies; there was a rumor that Go Searcher had to return before the FH launch due to engine trouble.

Update on Go Searcher - After the rendezvous with the other ship it has been making a normal 7 knots toward Port Canaveral.

Edit: The tug Manisee appears to have met up with Go Searcher and is arriving near Marsh Harbor now at 7.5 knots.  Does 7.5 knots seem too fast for a successful recovery?

https://twitter.com/CowboyDanPaasch/status/960663935962755072

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:442006/zoom:10

Anyway want to phone up Kairos and ask if they were involved?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 02/10/2018 01:39 pm
What is the white object aft of the black box on Go Searcher?
My guess is a Dragon 2 analog to test out the new rear arch crane recently added to that boat... 

The black box looks almost the right size to cover the D2, when the D2 is slid under it - assuming one side hinges.
Don’t think so - black box appears to be to small. See this other angle (you’ll have to go into tweet to see other angle. Not my image so only posted link to original):

https://twitter.com/cygnusx112/status/962142770684219392
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 02/10/2018 09:49 pm
What is the white object aft of the black box on Go Searcher?
My guess is a Dragon 2 analog to test out the new rear arch crane recently added to that boat... 

The black box looks almost the right size to cover the D2, when the D2 is slid under it - assuming one side hinges.
Don’t think so - black box appears to be to small. See this other angle (you’ll have to go into tweet to see other angle. Not my image so only posted link to original):

https://twitter.com/cygnusx112/status/962142770684219392

From earlier photos the black box has a walk in door. Might be a control room for the crane? Or a place for astronauts to hang out? Would there be a second boat for that?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: tvg98 on 02/12/2018 04:28 pm
Quote
A third is under construction

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963102131421982721 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963102131421982721)

Quote
A Shortfall of Gravitas

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963103592881168384 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963103592881168384)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/12/2018 04:39 pm
To give context, this was answering a tweet saying there was only 2 ASDSes. [1]
So 3rd ASDS under construction ! :o [2]

"A Shortfall of Gravitas" is the name. [3,4]
It will be east coast. [5,6]
Its purpose is to support increase of launch cadence and FH water side boosters landing. [6]
He was previously talking about them considering center core expendable FH launches (so side boosters water landing likely). [7]

Also they are considering stretching the upper stage ... Probably to improve FH capability. [8,9]
Interesting tidbit : Fully expendable FH is $150M [10] and Center core expendable FH is $95M [7]

[1] : https://twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/963101964518256640
[2] : https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963102131421982721
[3] : https://twitter.com/nova_road/status/963102551523713030
[4] : https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963103592881168384
[5] : https://twitter.com/EmreKelly/status/963104302125518849
[6] : https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963104633639002112
[7] : https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963094533830426624
[8] : https://twitter.com/DJSnM/status/963094625375240192
[9] : https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963095860060934144
[10] : https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963076231921938432
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pb2000 on 02/12/2018 04:39 pm
aSoG... doesn't abbreviate as well as JRTI or OCISLY
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: tvg98 on 02/12/2018 04:41 pm
Quote
East Coast? West Coast? ...elsewhere?

Quote
East, to support high flight rates for F9 and dual ocean landings for FH side boosters

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963104633639002112 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963104633639002112)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 02/12/2018 04:51 pm
I'd be surprised if they don't build an extra ASDS at some point.

Well, that didn't take long. Bonus points to the (several? Many?) observers who predicted another ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wxmeddler on 02/12/2018 04:59 pm
aSoG... doesn't abbreviate as well as JRTI or OCISLY

Think it would be ASoG, the first letter of an abbreviation is always capitalized.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 02/12/2018 05:01 pm
Quote
A third is under construction

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963102131421982721 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963102131421982721)

Quote
A Shortfall of Gravitas

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963103592881168384 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963103592881168384)

Our own Michael Baylor with the question too! Nice work!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/12/2018 05:02 pm
aSoG... doesn't abbreviate as well as JRTI or OCISLY

Well, when it rains, it will be ASoGgy ASDS, so I guess it is an accurate name ! :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/12/2018 05:08 pm
Upper stage stretch on FH?... that will help a lot on GTO and direct GEO...
Now that he know it works... going to go ahead and fix what it really needs, before leaving it be...  8)

To give context, this was answering a tweet saying there was only 2 ASDSes. [1]
So 3rd ASDS under construction ! :o [2]

"A Shortfall of Gravitas" is the name. [3,4]
It will be east coast. [5,6]
Its purpose is to support increase of launch cadence and FH water side boosters landing. [6]
He was previously talking about them considering center core expandable FH launches (so side boosters water landing likely). [7]

Also they are considering stretching the upper stage ... Probably to improve FH capability. [8,9]
Interesting tidbit : Fully expandable FH is $150M [10] and Center core expandable FH is $95M [7]

[1] : https://twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/963101964518256640
[2] : https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963102131421982721
[3] : https://twitter.com/nova_road/status/963102551523713030
[4] : https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963103592881168384
[5] : https://twitter.com/EmreKelly/status/963104302125518849
[6] : https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963104633639002112
[7] : https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963094533830426624
[8] : https://twitter.com/DJSnM/status/963094625375240192
[9] : https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963095860060934144
[10] : https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/963076231921938432
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/12/2018 06:38 pm
Not adding any value to this thread, but I have to say: I love the new name.

I'm also a fan of referring to the vessel class of GO Mr Steven as "Very Fast Pickets", although that's not blessed by Elon (yet).
https://twitter.com/realadammcohen/status/963106825527808002
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sanman on 02/12/2018 07:49 pm
New ASDS - A Shortfall of Gravitas:

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/2018/02/12/elon-musk-new-spacex-drone-ship-coming-east-coast-port-canaveral/330356002/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/12/2018 08:54 pm
ExPENDable not ExPANDable ... :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 02/12/2018 09:12 pm
ExPENDable not ExPANDable ... :)
But if the second stage gets longer...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/12/2018 09:35 pm
I'd be surprised if they don't build an extra ASDS at some point.

Well, that didn't take long. Bonus points to the (several? Many?) observers who predicted another ASDS.

Indeed!  :)

Now, the next questions is: what are they going to use?  "Marmac 300" is out to pasture and they already have '303 and '304 in the SpaceX Navy.  '301 is a different design, so that leaves '302 as the only remaining sister-ship.  According to the USCG PSIX, "Marmac 302" is currently classed as a "Freight Barge" however, coincidentally, their certification of documentation is up for renewal end of March.

http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/mcd-spec-sheets_v8-marmac_302.pdf

Could this be our next ASDS?  Anyone know where she is??

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/12/2018 09:39 pm
Any hints that Marmac has a new one under construction? They might want to consider it...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 02/12/2018 09:46 pm
Any hints that Marmac has a new one under construction? They might want to consider it...

What might a custom barge look like?

The obvious answer would be to just get a clone of one of the existing barges, but with wings.

Towers at the corners to suspend a rather large net?

Some sort of shielded equipment area seems an obvious idea.

Elon did just mention BFR testing possibly occurring ship-ship. This would pretty much need on-board propellant storage of some form, though it may be simpler regulatorily to do this from another ship, though of course slow things down.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 02/12/2018 09:47 pm
ExPENDable not ExPANDable ... :)
Thanks for the correct. English isn't my first language and my corrector didn't light it up for obvious reasons.
Fixed it. :-)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 02/12/2018 11:11 pm
With two east coast ASDS, I'm thinking that they could also, usually, support both spaceports (Brownsville and the Cape.) Basically, added flexibility.

And for some pure, fact-free wild speculation, I predict that the new ASDS will be at least as different from the current pair as the current pair are from JRTI pre-upgrade (JRTI Block 1). So, it would not surprise me at all if it's not Marmac-based. Perhaps it might be longer, double the length of a current ASDS, in order to be capable of catching two cores? I can't find any deck barges that big, but some ore barges are.
Another possibility is self-propelled.


 
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 02/12/2018 11:22 pm
With two east coast ASDS, I'm thinking that they could also, usually, support both spaceports (Brownsville and the Cape.) Basically, added flexibility.

And for some pure, fact-free wild speculation, I predict that the new ASDS will be at least as different from the current pair as the current pair are from JRTI pre-upgrade (JRTI Block 1). So, it would not surprise me at all if it's not Marmac-based. Perhaps it might be longer, double the length of a current ASDS, in order to be capable of catching two cores? I can't find any deck barges that big, but some ore barges are.
Another possibility is self-propelled.

Cruising from the Atlantic coast of Florida to the Gulf coast of Texas would eat up a lot of time. If their launch cadence increases to the rate everyone thinks it will, there will be no way to support both Brownsville and Kennedy / Canaveral. Brownsville will need its own ASDSes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/12/2018 11:30 pm
And for some pure, fact-free wild speculation, I predict that the new ASDS will be at least as different from the current pair as the current pair are from JRTI pre-upgrade (JRTI Block 1). So, it would not surprise me at all if it's not Marmac-based. Perhaps it might be longer, double the length of a current ASDS, in order to be capable of catching two cores? I can't find any deck barges that big, but some ore barges are.
Another possibility is self-propelled.

McDonough does catalog a 400' x 100' ocean barge with the same deck loading specs (22T/m2)
Put wings on it and a blast wall divider down the middle crossways... MAYBE two pads...  :P
Source...
http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/pdfs/mcd-8.5x11-catalog-v13-perfectbound.pdf#page=19 (http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/pdfs/mcd-8.5x11-catalog-v13-perfectbound.pdf#page=19)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/12/2018 11:43 pm
Any hints that Marmac has a new one under construction? They might want to consider it...

It takes quite a while to get a new build commissioned and in survey, so unless an order was placed a long time ago.. so it's not out of the question, but surely they'd select one of their existing fleet first?? Especially if there's even a tiny chance it might be sunk by a falling rocket.


And for some pure, fact-free wild speculation, I predict that the new ASDS will be at least as different from the current pair as the current pair are from JRTI pre-upgrade (JRTI Block 1). So, it would not surprise me at all if it's not Marmac-based. Perhaps it might be longer, double the length of a current ASDS, in order to be capable of catching two cores? I can't find any deck barges that big, but some ore barges are.
Another possibility is self-propelled.

McDonough does catalog a 400' x 100' ocean barge with the same deck loading specs (22T/m2)
Put wings on it and a blast wall divider down the middle crossways... MAYBE two pads...  :P
Source...
http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/pdfs/mcd-8.5x11-catalog-v13-perfectbound.pdf#page=19 (http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/pdfs/mcd-8.5x11-catalog-v13-perfectbound.pdf#page=19)

I'm happy to be proved wrong, but am less inclined to agree.  Elon's actual quote was "East, to support high flight rates for F9 and dual ocean landings for FH side boosters" which reads to me as if they're literally planning a new ASDS to match OCISLY.

Hate to pour cold water on your speculation, but there are many reasons why they might not want to change their current ASDS design, including:
1. The current size and draft suits their port operations, including towing up and down the channel, and loading and unloading alongside.
2. The current layout and systems are something their tug and support vessel operators are familiar with.
3. New design and ABS design approvals can take significant amounts of time and money.
4. The current design is known and understood by their maintenance crews, including USCG and ABS inspectors.
5. Their current shore-support infrastructure (hoses, cables, gangways, etc.) would need modification or replacement to suit a different size/shape/draft vessel.
6. System spares (including thrusters and containerised systems) would be interchangeable between vessels.
7. The current design appears to meet their requirements for "F9" and "FH side boosters" as specified (nothing about BFR in there)

...but that's an arm-chair perspective from the other side of the planet. YMMV. :)
 

EDIT: PS:  Perhaps someone else can measure their berth and confirm, but ISTM parking a 400' long ASDS in their current location would be sure to upset the neighbours! ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 02/13/2018 12:55 am
What are the odds, do we think, that ASoG will follow the pair of JRTIs and OCISLY when it comes to where the ASDSing is done?  I mean, I haven't taken a kayak excursion to Morgan City in a while. ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 02/13/2018 01:08 am
What are the odds, do we think, that ASoG will follow the pair of JRTIs and OCISLY when it comes to where the ASDSing is done?  I mean, I haven't taken a kayak excursion to Morgan City in a while. ;D

Probably good odds, since the guys who did it first time around will presumably know what they're doing now and be able to work more efficiently.

IIRC, it was LAD Services (shipyard) that did the outfitting of the Marmacs. I have some feelers out to see what we can learn about the new ASDS.

Meanwhile, it seems the U.S. DOT Maritime Administration is just now updating its list of US-flagged barges large enough to service offshore oil rigs, giving us a convenient list of potential candidates for ASDS conversion. On the list is our old friend Marmac 300, the original ASDS that was returned to its owner McDonough Marine. And absent from the list are Marmac 303 and 304, the current ASDS barges, presumably because they're on permanent ASDS duty.

So, the next ASDS may well be from this list (last 2 pages of the pdf):

https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2018-02885.pdf
https://www.marad.dot.gov/ships-and-shipping/domestic-shipping/launch-barge-program/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/13/2018 04:45 am
Meanwhile, it seems the U.S. DOT Maritime Administration is just now updating its list of US-flagged barges large enough to service offshore oil rigs, giving us a convenient list of potential candidates for ASDS conversion. On the list is our old friend Marmac 300, the original ASDS that was returned to its owner McDonough Marine. And absent from the list are Marmac 303 and 304, the current ASDS barges, presumably because they're on permanent ASDS duty.

So, the next ASDS may well be from this list (last 2 pages of the pdf):

https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2018-02885.pdf
https://www.marad.dot.gov/ships-and-shipping/domestic-shipping/launch-barge-program/

FWIW, nothing was ever said at the time but I'm starting to wonder if there weren't other reasons 'ol faithful Marmac 300 was retired early: There are differences (small, I'll admit) in design between '300 and '302/'303/'304..

Marmac 300 is kinda unique in the fleet... and is no longer classified as an Industrial/Research Vessel
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 02/13/2018 06:36 am
What are the chances the new ASDS does not have the wing extensions? They may need them so that can maneuver around the stage, but they don't seem to need them to account for landing inaccuracy. Or maybe just narrower extensions?

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 02/13/2018 01:07 pm
What are the chances the new ASDS does not have the wing extensions? They may need them so that can maneuver around the stage, but they don't seem to need them to account for landing inaccuracy. Or maybe just narrower extensions?

Matthew

It's an interesting question. Smaller is better from the standpoint of berthing, maneuvering, etc, so it's worth wondering whether they'll go in that direction. The newest Marmacs on the list I posted (Marmac 24 & 25) are 260' x 72', shorter and narrower than the 300 series.

Narrower is probably low-risk,  but shorter  increases the risk of damage to thrusters or equipment pods if the stage topples towards either end.

There's also the question of stability in high seas, and that's been an issue on several missions. I'd imagine smaller is less stable in high seas, and for that reason alone SpaceX might not want to go that route.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/13/2018 02:36 pm
The need for a third ASDS to support center-core-expended FH launches has been obvious for a while, so I wouldn't let long lead time weigh much as a factor against building a new MARMAC from scratch.  It could have been under construction for as long as FH has been. ;)

I would think that external factors would tip the balance for SpaceX here.  If another MARMAC can be leased (best) or built for a reasonable price/lead time (okay) then I'd think they'd go with what they're familiar with, with parts interchangeable with the rest of the fleet.

If they can't get another MARMAC and end up doing a redesign, then I'd expect them to take the opportunity to buy down some risk by incorporating some features they think they'll need for BFS hops.  This might then influence their decisions about Boca Chica hops vs offshore hops.  I don't know which features are highest priority for risk buydown.  I'd wager "cradle landing", but that seems incompatible with current Falcon operations (unless there are surprises coming with Block 5).  Maybe foldable wings or integral crane or some other feature to speed dock processing.

But even OctaGrabber seems to be progressing very slowly, so it seems DockX is not an R&D priority at this time.  Or maybe it's progressing slowly because the DockX tiger team is off working on ASoG? SpaceX policy seems to not try to multitask or staff up, but instead to put their most talented guys (like the west coast TEL welder or the pad construction team) on one project at a time.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: testguy on 02/13/2018 03:50 pm
Let me speculate further and state that the new ASDS under construction may actually ultimately be used for BFR/S.

First here is what we know:
A. SpaceX is flexible and is uses continuing improvement as seen in Falcon 9 airframe and engines, GSE, and ASDS.
B. There has surprisingly has been less construction activity at BC than we would have expected by now considering the schedule for BFS.
C. BC EIS currently has limits on numbers of launches per year.  Yes we know this could be modified but we have not seen evidence of that yet.
D. SpaceX wants to retire Falcon 9 and Falcon 9 Heavy as soon as BFR/S comes on line, ASAP.
E. SpaceX has stated that they are looking at BFS hopes possibly from shore to ship or even ship to ship.
F. The 2017 IAC video shows the point to point BFR/S being launched off a large sea platform that also contains the GSE for refueling.

Given all of the above, I would speculate that the ASDS under construction is much larger than OCISLY and ultimately could develop into the sea point to point configuration shown in the 2017 IAC video. 
Here is why:
1. Why would you spend capital funds on a OCISLY clone when you already know you want to retire it ASAP.  Possibly before you could recover your return on investment (ROI)?
2.  Building a large ASDS now that could ultimately be modified to a full sea launch BFR/S could explain why construction at BC currently appears sparse.
3.  The large ASDS could initially be used for Falcon Heavy recoveries.  We know already that will not be in high demand and will be relatively short lived.
4. The large ASDS  if used for BFS would get around the EIS restrictions and could explain the lack of EIS modification activity.
5.  BFS hops, I believe could be launched of a concrete pad just as Grasshopper was.  After all that is a better platform that it will initially have on MARS.  The initial hoppers could land on the large ASDS to midegate  fears of the BC community.
6. Fuel/oxidizer tanks an GSE equipment could be added to the large ASDS latter when it could be used for BFR/S launches.
7. Not sure I see a need for a causeway or fuel and oxidizer lines running out to the large ADDS.  Why not just transport by ship to fill the tanks on the ASDS.  Control of GSE could simply be performed from a shore control room linked via a fire optic network.

It would be exciting, at least to me if SpaceX was using this approach because it would indicate that they are progressing faster than many perceive.

Thoughts?



Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 02/13/2018 04:39 pm
1. Why would you spend capital funds on a OCISLY clone when you already know you want to retire it ASAP.  Possibly before you could recover your return on investment (ROI)?
Thoughts?

Because, the cost in obtaining a stock unmodified barge - adding wings (possibly),  railings, thrusters and blast wall may be paid off with a several percent chance of catching one rocket once.

It is sufficiently 'boring' in construction that you can probably get a competent dockyard to quote on construction of it, completely hands-off.
All you then do is to hook up the thrustmasters to  your control container, and you're pretty much done.

You can even (especially if you've not added wings) resell the whole lot for a reasonable slice of the purchase price.

A larger ASDS, perhaps with onboard cyrogenic storage, or stage-catchers, or .... is going to involve a lot more actual thought and investment, versus what may literally be a ten minute phone call and wait three months.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 02/13/2018 10:37 pm
Let me speculate further and state that the new ASDS under construction may actually ultimately be used for BDF/S.

Thoughts?

Very little of that has anything to do with reality and is simply speculation in search of justification.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: deruch on 02/14/2018 11:13 am
aSoG... doesn't abbreviate as well as JRTI or OCISLY

ASGrav.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/14/2018 02:06 pm
aSoG... doesn't abbreviate as well as JRTI or OCISLY

ASGrav.
Pronounced "a sog", spelled ASoG. Don't see anything hard about that.

Much more pronounceable than JRtI ("jerr tee"?) or OCISLY ("oh sis lee"?).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 02/14/2018 02:12 pm
A reliable source tells me the new ASDS is not being leased from McDonough Marine, which owns the two ASDS Marmac barges. So the new one won't be one of the other Marmacs.

I'll keep digging and see what else I can find out.

Clarification: not being leased/purchased/whatever, from McDonough Marine...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/14/2018 04:53 pm
aSoG... doesn't abbreviate as well as JRTI or OCISLY

ASGrav.
Pronounced "a sog", spelled ASoG. Don't see anything hard about that.

Much more pronounceable than JRtI ("jerr tee"?) or OCISLY ("oh sis lee"?).

A-Sog, absolutely.
O'Cisly was definitely pronounceable, the Irish way. O'Cisely.  Like Mos Isley.  Precisely.
I can live with Jerr-Tee for JRtI.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/14/2018 09:25 pm
Pronounced "a sog", spelled ASoG. Don't see anything hard about that.

Much more pronounceable than JRtI ("jerr tee"?) or OCISLY ("oh sis lee"?).

A-Sog, absolutely.

Only problem I see with "A Sog" is that it likely describes both (a) the behaviour of an ASDS under tow in a storm and (b) conditions on board of said ASDS at the time:

sog. (n.) "soft or marshy place," Also as a verb, "to become soaked; to soak"


 ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/14/2018 09:28 pm
A reliable source tells me the new ASDS is not being leased from McDonough Marine, which owns the two ASDS Marmac barges. So the new one won't be one of the other Marmacs.

Well that DOES open up the playing field a little, but doesn't rule out them actually buying a hull from McD (or someone else) rather than leasing..

It'll be interesting to see what comes of this.  :)

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 02/14/2018 11:36 pm
A reliable source tells me the new ASDS is not being leased from McDonough Marine, which owns the two ASDS Marmac barges. So the new one won't be one of the other Marmacs.

Well that DOES open up the playing field a little, but doesn't rule out them actually buying a hull from McD (or someone else) rather than leasing..

Let me clarify: McDonough Marine is not supplying the barge/hull/whatever, by any means.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 02/15/2018 06:05 pm
A reliable source tells me the new ASDS is not being leased from McDonough Marine, which owns the two ASDS Marmac barges. So the new one won't be one of the other Marmacs.

Well that DOES open up the playing field a little, but doesn't rule out them actually buying a hull from McD (or someone else) rather than leasing..

Let me clarify: McDonough Marine is not supplying the barge/hull/whatever, by any means.

Thank you, Kabloona, for this info. Very intriguing.

I'm still guessing (I have no proof whatsoever) that the news ASDS will be of a bit different design than the current ASDSII (I assume this is the correct plural of ASDS?) so I'm very interested to see what they end up with.

I also wonder if SpaceX might have commissioned a purpose-built hull, now that they have experience as to what's needed? 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Flying Beaver on 02/15/2018 08:34 pm
I also wonder if SpaceX might have commissioned a purpose-built hull, now that they have experience as to what's needed?

Something a bit faster than 4-knots eh?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 02/15/2018 08:47 pm
I also wonder if SpaceX might have commissioned a purpose-built hull, now that they have experience as to what's needed?

Something a bit faster than 4-knots eh?

I've advocated for a while now having the barge do the landing burn after catching the rocket in freefall.
Swap the thrustmasters for raptor clusters.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/15/2018 08:56 pm
A reliable source tells me the new ASDS is not being leased from McDonough Marine, which owns the two ASDS Marmac barges. So the new one won't be one of the other Marmacs.

Well that DOES open up the playing field a little, but doesn't rule out them actually buying a hull from McD (or someone else) rather than leasing..

Let me clarify: McDonough Marine is not supplying the barge/hull/whatever, by any means.

Thank you, Kabloona, for this info. Very intriguing.

I'm still guessing (I have no proof whatsoever) that the news ASDS will be of a bit different design than the current ASDSII (I assume this is the correct plural of ASDS?) so I'm very interested to see what they end up with.

I also wonder if SpaceX might have commissioned a purpose-built hull, now that they have experience as to what's needed?
ASDII.  No second S.  And even that is wrong.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: biosehnsucht on 02/15/2018 09:42 pm
Apparently there's a couple of different rules :
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/503/what-is-the-correct-way-to-pluralize-an-acronym/921#921

But in short, none of them involve "ii".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/15/2018 10:25 pm
I also wonder if SpaceX might have commissioned a purpose-built hull, now that they have experience as to what's needed?

Something a bit faster than 4-knots eh?

Unfortunately, something like that (pretty pic, BTW) won't work.. whilst waiting on the open ocean for the stage to land, it will roll like a pig in mud.

CJ, everything we've seen to date indicates SpaceX have employed some incredibly clever people for the ASDS design task - not just rockets scientists, but naval architects and marine engineers also.  Sure they made a few tweaks along the way (bigger thrusters, blast walls, Roomba) but I suspect that, now that they have experience as to what's needed, they wouldn't do anything different.  If this were not the case, they would not have built JRTI to the same design when they had the opportunity to do something completely different.

EDIT:  ..but I still think a SWATH platform might be the go.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 02/15/2018 11:46 pm

Unfortunately, something like that (pretty pic, BTW) won't work.. whilst waiting on the open ocean for the stage to land, it will roll like a pig in mud.


Heh. Yes.

The deck barge platform has the advantages of being widely available, relatively inexpensive, easily converted, very stable, and probably a few other things I can't think of.

The stability issue, as we've seen, is a big one. So it's hard to see how a traditional single-hulled ship design could compete.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 02/16/2018 12:39 am
Apparently there's a couple of different rules :
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/503/what-is-the-correct-way-to-pluralize-an-acronym/921#921

But in short, none of them involve "ii".

Hrmmm. If the Chicago Manual of Style is correct, then it's ASDSs. Thanks!

I also wonder if SpaceX might have commissioned a purpose-built hull, now that they have experience as to what's needed?

Something a bit faster than 4-knots eh?

Unfortunately, something like that (pretty pic, BTW) won't work.. whilst waiting on the open ocean for the stage to land, it will roll like a pig in mud.

CJ, everything we've seen to date indicates SpaceX have employed some incredibly clever people for the ASDS design task - not just rockets scientists, but naval architects and marine engineers also.  Sure they made a few tweaks along the way (bigger thrusters, blast walls, Roomba) but I suspect that, now that they have experience as to what's needed, they wouldn't do anything different.  If this were not the case, they would not have built JRTI to the same design when they had the opportunity to do something completely different.

EDIT:  ..but I still think a SWATH platform might be the go.  :)


I'm only suggesting an incremental upgrade, like the F9 had between blocks. Nothing too radical. For example (speculating wildly here) some internal storage for fuel and some equipment, or a better-protected Octograbber (or Roomba, or Octospider) lair (so it's less likely to get Falcon-punched again). Or, perhaps, a slightly different bowform if that'd make it ride and tow easier. My guess is it'll probably be the same or less of a change than we saw JRTI undergo with its upgrade (which included a new hull, different layout, etc).

I agree that they have some very fine engineers, but those selfsame experts made changes to the original JRTI configuration, so my guess is they might do similar again. We already know there will be one major change; it's not getting a Marmac hull. I'll also bet that it'll be given tow-attach points on both forward corners, to allow for towing it behind OCISLY (so no need for an extra tug).   

I also wonder if SpaceX might have commissioned a purpose-built hull, now that they have experience as to what's needed?

Something a bit faster than 4-knots eh?

Awesome illustration, but I'm guessing something nowhere near that radical a change. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 02/16/2018 03:24 am
I also wonder if SpaceX might have commissioned a purpose-built hull, now that they have experience as to what's needed?

Something a bit faster than 4-knots eh?

Unfortunately, something like that (pretty pic, BTW) won't work.. whilst waiting on the open ocean for the stage to land, it will roll like a pig in mud...
That's just the Blue Origin landing ship with an X photoshopped onto it. (I think you know this, but just checking.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 02/16/2018 10:47 am
That's just the Blue Origin landing ship with an X photoshopped onto it. (I think you know this, but just checking.)
Even the rocket: it's a New Glenn...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: joncz on 02/16/2018 11:39 am

EDIT:  ..but I still think a SWATH platform might be the go.  :)


Aaand I'm back from wandering through swaths of SWATH hulls.  Turns out there's a SWATH hull ferry, Cloud X, laid up at Green Cove Springs in Jacksonville, which (NSF relevant) also has an external tank STA

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.9852114,-81.6547299,455m/data=!3m1!1e3

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-sep-naas-green-cove-springs-ruins-of-northeast-florida/page/1
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 02/17/2018 06:32 pm
Or, perhaps, a slightly different bowform if that'd make it ride and tow easier. My guess is it'll probably be the same or less of a change than we saw JRTI undergo with its upgrade (which included a new hull, different layout, etc).

Change the bow form and that changes the buoyancy of the bow compared to the stern - which could make it move less evenly / predictably and make landing more difficult.

Similarly, a thinner bow would likely result in more roll, which isn't optimal.

The other advantage of using an off-the-shelf barge is that it's a known quantity: if necessary, one can be short-term hired, towed out to sea and ballasted to confirm the stability.

The current ASDSes aren't perfect, but they do a good job with relatively cheap materials and running costs. No reason not to repeat the concept, albeit it's likely to be refined somewhat.

Then again, we may be surprised by whatever does appear. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Barrie on 02/17/2018 07:41 pm
Turns out there's a SWATH hull ferry, Cloud X, laid up at Green Cove Springs in Jacksonville

Tragically, not nearly big enough (38m x 18m).  Would have been so cool to keep the name  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 02/17/2018 08:36 pm
Tragically, not nearly big enough (38m x 18m).  Would have been so cool to keep the name  ;D

Has anyone been keeping track of the recent landing errors for stages that landed successfully?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 02/17/2018 10:51 pm
Tragically, not nearly big enough (38m x 18m).  Would have been so cool to keep the name  ;D

Has anyone been keeping track of the recent landing errors for stages that landed successfully?
Do you want that in mm or 1/16ths of an inch?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 02/17/2018 11:12 pm
Tragically, not nearly big enough (38m x 18m).  Would have been so cool to keep the name  ;D

Has anyone been keeping track of the recent landing errors for stages that landed successfully?
Do you want that in mm or 1/16ths of an inch?

I constantly find myself amazed at what people have done, when it seems very unlikely.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Coastal Ron on 02/17/2018 11:32 pm
EDIT:  ..but I still think a SWATH platform might be the go.  :)
Aaand I'm back from wandering through swaths of SWATH hulls.  Turns out there's a SWATH hull ferry, Cloud X, laid up at Green Cove Springs in Jacksonville, which (NSF relevant) also has an external tank STA

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.9852114,-81.6547299,455m/data=!3m1!1e3

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-sep-naas-green-cove-springs-ruins-of-northeast-florida/page/1

A SWATH would be far faster, but Cloud X would have to be stripped of everything above the 1st deck in order to be appropriate for landing rockets safely.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/19/2018 01:23 am
All this talk of SWATH boats got me googling around and thinking on topic this weekend...  ???
First thing I discovered is nobody has built a really big one dimensionaly...
And not many are laid out like a offshore work boat (superstructure up front and and rear flat deck...

SO... I spent some time with Sketchup 2018 Pro doodling up a 'what if'...  :D

What if we set width just under Neo-Panamax... at about 48m (157+ft)
What if we set length at just under 2x ASDS... at about 180m (590+ft)
What if I drew a landing bullseye on the deck with 60ft (F9 leg span) inner circle and 40m outer circle...
Put it toward aft... Hmmm... not bad
Now lets push all the superstructure forward and put on a stout blast wall to armor it's back side...

I then spent a bunch of time on the hull... I'm no navel architect... But I think it looks kewl enough...
It's got two 7m main screws each driven by a 50000hp electric drive... So I needed 100000 hp worth of juice.
I decided early on to make it all electric drive... Generators feeding a dual bus (with computer controled cross-feed)
All motors then drawing off those buses... This let's me easily put all the power up front, 500+ft from the props...

Summary on installed power train as imagined...
2x 50000 hp main screws...
8x 800 hp 1.5m tunnel thrusters (to use for position keeping on station)
Driven by... 1 to all of the following sources...
2x GE LM2500 G4 gas turbine generators at 40000+ hp each (these are positioned just under the stacks)
8x Cat 3516 marine gen-sets at 2500hp each (these are sitting side by side under the deck just behind the blast wall)
2x min small gets sets for hotel loads and emergency backup, size TBD...

The nice thing about this setup is automation could vary the number of gens online based on expected load.
I read one article where a ship had throttles to control each props current thrust, and a big knob with a readout to preset what you expect to want in a few minutes... Your telling the boat what to expect coming up so it can stage one or both turbines and vary the number of 3516's making power to be instantly ready for it...

Continues next post with three more pics...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/19/2018 01:24 am
Another three views shown below...
Is it fast?... I bet it will do over 30 knots...  ;)
BUT, I'm no naval architect...

If so... A mission to dash way out 500nm and get on station... catch a stage... And get back to port...
36 hours is possible... two every 3 days...  :o

Anyway... gave me an excuse to see what changed on the 2018 Sketchup update... And have a bit of whimsical fun while at it...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/19/2018 02:15 am
Seems like a lot of wasted deck space?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/19/2018 02:33 am
Seems like a lot of wasted deck space?

At one point it had TWO landing pads and still lots of room for stuff fore and aft...  ;)
I guess it's boils down to how close do you want to land an F9 to that front end...
I picture it built having a beefed up roof and structure wise...
But an F9 lawn darting a turbine room at 300 mph would get expensive...  :-\

The other thought was resale value for use as something else with a new owner...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 02/19/2018 03:17 am
Not to intentionally draw attention away from the thought and work that you put into that proposal but it reminds me of one of Cameron D's themes and that is a large fast boat that can be sunk under barge(s) and refloated to carry them rapidly back and forth.  On a large flat deck that size you may be able to put two (FH) ASDSs.  So you'd be able to take them out fast and then get your ship and people away (catch a fairing or two while you're out there, why not?).  Perhaps  the swath hull doesn't have enough flotation to lift ASDSs but that's OK because if the ASDSs are doing the catching your ASDS hauler ship doesn't need the stability of swath and can have a more conventional (but hopefully still fast) hull shape.

Getting more back to your proposal I think you'd want a crane in the middle with which to move landed stages toward the front to free up more landing space.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/19/2018 05:19 am
Could a SWATH be rengineered to act like a heavy modest lift boat?... probably could... IMHO
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy-lift_ship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy-lift_ship)
One thing that would help on what you propose is if the ASDS was redesigned to me self ballasting...
What I mean is, many of it's tanks are open to the sea so it will settle to the right height when put in the water,,
Yet when lifted up... they self drain to minimize the dead weight to carry...  ;)

As to your 2nd part...
I did think briefly of putting a wood planked "road" down the middle of the front there and loading a crawler crane on board..
Back up to the blast-wall and lay the boom on the deck...
After stage lands and safe... boom up and crawl it back to reach the stage...
Pick it up and set it on a work-stand while they fold the B5 legs back up...
Then move it once more to one of several close spaced stands to ride back to port...
Swing crane back and crawl backward up to the wall.. drop boom.. repeat as needed...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 02/19/2018 11:28 am
Not to intentionally draw attention away from the thought and work that you put into that proposal but it reminds me of one of Cameron D's themes and that is a large fast boat that can be sunk under barge(s) and refloated to carry them rapidly back and forth.  On a large flat deck that size you may be able to put two (FH) ASDSs.  So you'd be able to take them out fast and then get your ship and people away (catch a fairing or two while you're out there, why not?).  Perhaps  the swath hull doesn't have enough flotation to lift ASDSs but that's OK because if the ASDSs are doing the catching your ASDS hauler ship doesn't need the stability of swath and can have a more conventional (but hopefully still fast) hull shape.

Getting more back to your proposal I think you'd want a crane in the middle with which to move landed stages toward the front to free up more landing space.

What you are describing is quite similar to early LSD amphibious assault ship designs that have a open well space at the rear of the ship to carry smaller landing crafts like a LCU barge. Just need a wider beam that the historical LSD classes.

IMO SpaceX could uses an ASDS boat with a much smaller footprint than the one ones they have deployed. Since their landing accuracy is within a few meters at the most from the middle of the X when everything works.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 02/19/2018 02:31 pm
I like the idea of independent barges for the landing so people aren't close for the landing. Then the big boat picking them up for fast transport. It all comes down to whether people could be on board during a landing. Could they have a special blast room that could survive an explosion?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: stcks on 02/19/2018 02:55 pm
Bringing this thread back into the current ASDS reality... The reddit user llama_llover (https://www.reddit.com/u/llama_llover) posted a picture of JRTI today berthed along the outer harbor berth 46 (https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/7y95lz/just_read_the_instructions_taken_today_in_long/) (just south of the normal SpaceX berth). It is clear JRTI is missing some necessary things... discuss.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/19/2018 04:41 pm
Bringing this thread back into the current ASDS reality... The reddit user llama_llover (https://www.reddit.com/u/llama_llover) posted a picture of JRTI today berthed along the outer harbor berth 46 (https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/7y95lz/just_read_the_instructions_taken_today_in_long/) (just south of the normal SpaceX berth). It is clear JRTI is missing some necessary things... discuss.

Oooh.

Confused.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 02/19/2018 06:10 pm
Bringing this thread back into the current ASDS reality... The reddit user llama_llover (https://www.reddit.com/u/llama_llover) posted a picture of JRTI today berthed along the outer harbor berth 46 (https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/7y95lz/just_read_the_instructions_taken_today_in_long/) (just south of the normal SpaceX berth). It is clear JRTI is missing some necessary things... discuss.

Good catch.

This does not look good IMHO. Right off the bat, I see the two thrusters on the deck, and the other two apparently missing. I also note that there are units of some sort (I forgot what was there) missing from the port aft quarter (the bow is to the left in the pic). I'm hoping that people with sharper eyes than mine can spot other details.

What the heck is going on? Is JRTI being redone, or is JRTI being stripped? One guess would be they are installing an Octograbber (or octospider, or whatever it's called) lair like on OCISLY, but that wouldn't explain why JRTI has two thrusters on deck, and two missing.
The only theory I can come up with is that the thruster situation is due to JRTI being used as a thruster source to get OCISLY back in service fast after the FH core damage, but that'd only make sense if there is mission for OCISLY very soon, and I don't know of one.


 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/19/2018 06:43 pm
They had to cannibalise JRTI of some of its parts to repair OCISLY following SES-11's post landing fire, which is the reason for the absent thrusters and cargo. Though it is kind of sad to see it rusted and barren......



Bringing this thread back into the current ASDS reality... The reddit user llama_llover (https://www.reddit.com/u/llama_llover) posted a picture of JRTI today berthed along the outer harbor berth 46 (https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/7y95lz/just_read_the_instructions_taken_today_in_long/) (just south of the normal SpaceX berth). It is clear JRTI is missing some necessary things... discuss.

Good catch.

This does not look good IMHO. Right off the bat, I see the two thrusters on the deck, and the other two apparently missing. I also note that there are units of some sort (I forgot what was there) missing from the port aft quarter (the bow is to the left in the pic). I'm hoping that people with sharper eyes than mine can spot other details.

What the heck is going on? Is JRTI being redone, or is JRTI being stripped? One guess would be they are installing an Octograbber (or octospider, or whatever it's called) lair like on OCISLY, but that wouldn't explain why JRTI has two thrusters on deck, and two missing.
The only theory I can come up with is that the thruster situation is due to JRTI being used as a thruster source to get OCISLY back in service fast after the FH core damage, but that'd only make sense if there is mission for OCISLY very soon, and I don't know of one.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Semmel on 02/19/2018 06:51 pm
They had to cannibalise JRTI of some of its parts to repair OCISLY following SES-11's post landing fire, which is the reason for the absent thrusters and cargo. Though it is kind of sad to see it rusted and barren......

I liked your post to thank you for the information (provided its not an assumption) but the content is sort of sad. Are there any hints/plans to reequip JRTI with the missing parts and start catching boosters again? Or are all recovered Vandenberg launches RTLS in the foreseeable future?

@edit: Vandenburg => Vandenberg
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 02/19/2018 06:53 pm
I liked your post to thank you for the information (provided its not an assumption) but the content is sort of sad. Are there any hints/plans to reequip JRTI with the missing parts and start catching boosters again? Or are all recovered Vandenburg launches RTLS in the foreseeable future?

I wonder if it could ever be operationally cheaper to launch a FH and recover all three cores to land, rather than a F9 and sea.

Seems unlikely.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/19/2018 07:03 pm
2 things- 1. Not an assumption I've seen on reddit and on here that that WAS the reason. 2. Vandenberg RTLS can be only Block 4 and 5, but the landing pad I don't think is ready still, so I would guess we are a solid 3-4 months away until we see a Vandenberg RTLS....

EDIT: IF Vandenberg launches only RTLS in the foreseeable future JRTI would probably move to the east coast to support rapid F9 launches and triple FH landings (would love to see that happen).

They had to cannibalise JRTI of some of its parts to repair OCISLY following SES-11's post landing fire, which is the reason for the absent thrusters and cargo. Though it is kind of sad to see it rusted and barren......

I liked your post to thank you for the information (provided its not an assumption) but the content is sort of sad. Are there any hints/plans to reequip JRTI with the missing parts and start catching boosters again? Or are all recovered Vandenberg launches RTLS in the foreseeable future?

@edit: Vandenburg => Vandenberg
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/19/2018 11:53 pm
Taking this back onto the sub topic of... should we consider a manned stage recovery boat and take plenty of steps to avoid harm or death to those who man the big boat..

It all comes down to whether people could be on board during a landing. Could they have a special blast room that could survive an explosion?

My serious opinion... After much thought on it today...
Someone is MORE likely to get hurt or killed loading or unloading  ASDS barges onto a carrier ship for transport on the open sea.
Much safer sitting in a 'safe room' deep behind multiple barriers with at least 3 escape routes if the ship takes damage...  :-\

Steps to address this concern...  ;)
Still have another fast boat nearby to assist and pick up crew, if it comes down to abandon ship...
The boat will be steady on station and it's heading and GPS coordinates of the Bridge will be relayed and confirmed back to mission control at T-5 mins
Mission control will load this keep out at all cost GPS coordinate to the rocket with a 60m circle assumed and coded into the rockets programing...
All onboard personal (headcount taken) WILL be in the hardened locked safe room before T-1 min, or range is NOT green... Your FIRED if you miss this meeting...
Crew can watch and monitor the launch and flight from the safe room... plenty of monitors all around...
The Rocket is programed so, if it has issue on landing burn... It will avoid the keep out zone at all cost to the rocket... Including firing off the Self Destruct charges if it thinks it can't avoid the zone...
Ship is built to survive a shower of rocket debris ,including OctaWeb and engines, and still remain usable.
Safe room and escape routes are built to survive a 300mph suicide plunge directly at it from all angles...

In summary...
Building a big ass boat that people can be sitting inside a safe room while a almost empty rocket lands 200ft away is just an engineering problem that is solvable...  IMHO...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/19/2018 11:56 pm
No need for humans to be near a landing rocket.

No need for humans to be near a launching rocket.

The writing is on the wall: fewer humans, more automation.  I don't see any reason SpaceX would take a step back.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/19/2018 11:58 pm
survive a 300 mph direct hit, even given the thing doing the hitting is fluffy? That's some serious armor.

Also, not sure that 300 mph is the max possible velocity you need to defend against.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/20/2018 12:46 am
survive a 300 mph direct hit, even given the thing doing the hitting is fluffy? That's some serious armor.

Also, not sure that 300 mph is the max possible velocity you need to defend against.

Ok... factor x4 (1200 mph) and the largest F9 chunks that can penetrate thru 6 levels of heavy deck plates just to get to the outside shell of the safe room way down low in the ships side hull (but above waterline)...
None of what is incoming is considered armor piercing stuff from an engineering standpoint...  ???

Besides... did you miss the part where I said the rocket will do everything in it's power to miss the boat entirely if anything goes wrong?

Suggest you read this, and then tell me that mankind can't engineer an Super ASDS that the crew wouldn't survive a worst case F9 hit and escape unharmed to work another day...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa-class_battleship#Armor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa-class_battleship#Armor)

The crew escapes hopefully unharmed if all goes to plan...
The ship stays afloat and is salvaged if possible, and returned to service...
This is no different then designing a war ship to send people into harm way...
The 'enemy' is firing F9 Stage 1's at your ship... make it survivable...
The crew is not forced to do this... I bet they would have many volunteers to stay aboard...

This is an engineering problem... not a, never do that ever problem... IMHO...  ;)
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 02/20/2018 01:45 am
Besides... did you miss the part where I said the rocket will do everything in it's power to miss the boat entirely if anything goes wrong?


I was with you up until this point. 

The ASDS is designed to auto-detect anomalous landing profile and autonomously maneuver to avoid the incoming rogue stage.  Well, at least until the last 50 feet of the landing attempt at which time the Phalanx CIWS is deployed to convert the stage to a neat pile of managable recyclable bits.  And there's a Roomba to keep those tidy.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: su27k on 02/20/2018 02:52 am
They had to cannibalise JRTI of some of its parts to repair OCISLY following SES-11's post landing fire, which is the reason for the absent thrusters and cargo. Though it is kind of sad to see it rusted and barren......

I believe this is from a speculative comment at the SpaceX facebook group, has this actually been confirmed?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/20/2018 02:53 am
Besides... did you miss the part where I said the rocket will do everything in it's power to miss the boat entirely if anything goes wrong?


I was with you up until this point. 

The ASDS is designed to auto-detect anomalous landing profile and autonomously maneuver to avoid the incoming rogue stage.  Well, at least until the last 50 feet of the landing attempt at which time the Phalanx CIWS is deployed to convert the stage to a neat pile of managable recyclable bits.  And there's a Roomba to keep those tidy.

I guess what I was thinking was the rocket program could be updated to be fed two more numbers just before liftoff...
It already has the landing aim point...
Given the direction the ship is facing forward, in degrees compass..
And the accurate location of the ships GPS center of bridge location,,,
The rocket could then have an outline of the ship already in memory, and can do it's best to miss the ship entirely using whatever systems are still working...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 02/20/2018 03:10 am
I'm sure it's possible to design and build a safe manned ASDS, but it seems to be incredibly impractical from the most important perspective, cost. 

Seems to me that the best solution regarding crew safety is to keep them at a safe distance (not on the ASDS), and use an automated/remote controlled device (octograbber) on the existing ASDS to secure the F9.

It indeed can be dangerous to hook up a tow in rough conditions, so perhaps the safest and cheapest  alternative is to use Octograbber for securing the rocket, and devise a way to hook up a tow without sending a crew aboard?

For the latter... the ASDS on station is roughly bow-on into the seas. You don't want your tow line fouling the thrusters, so what about using a high buoyancy tow rope, such as HMPE, with a small float at the end, and leaving it attached to the ASDS, trailing down one side and then astern? The tow tug could fish out the end and hook up, no need to send crew aboard. Or, coil it on the bow, and have the ASDS fire a commercially-available (around $400) rocket pilot-line thrower. Those are normally hand-fired, so some engineering would be required in order to mount it (a fixed angle and direction should do) and trigger it remotely.


 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 02/20/2018 09:53 am
There's a common belief that SpaceX opt for expensive, highly technological solutions to rocket-handling problems when the reality is often different.

The current ASDS solution is relatively simple and relatively cheap.

As far as we are aware, there's a third ASDS being built which will likely follow the general pattern of the first two.


I remain to be convinced by any argument for decreasing the transit time for a recovered stage from offshore to Port Canaveral from the current 3-4 days*.

What would be the financial benefit of cutting a day or so out of a process that's probably going to be at least a 60 day turnaround between launches?

And how would that justify spending several million dollars?


And no, nobody in their right mind would want to be sat on a ship that a returning F9 core is targeting - and if anyone can be found, just show them the FH centre core landing attempt footage and then ask again ;)



*For example: KoreaSat launched on 30th October and the ASDS was back in port on 2nd November.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 02/20/2018 10:00 am
In other news, a third 'Go twin' has appeared in Port Canaveral - Go Pursuit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8EFq6bmAJw

Whether this is for fairing recovery; as cover for Go Searcher (which seems to have gained a Dragon mockup to play with); for some other as-yet undisclosed function awaits to be seen.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/20/2018 01:36 pm
There's a common belief that SpaceX opt for expensive, highly technological solutions to rocket-handling problems when the reality is often different.

The current ASDS solution is relatively simple and relatively cheap.

As far as we are aware, there's a third ASDS being built which will likely follow the general pattern of the first two.


I remain to be convinced by any argument for decreasing the transit time for a recovered stage from offshore to Port Canaveral from the current 3-4 days*.

What would be the financial benefit of cutting a day or so out of a process that's probably going to be at least a 60 day turnaround between launches?

And how would that justify spending several million dollars?


And no, nobody in their right mind would want to be sat on a ship that a returning F9 core is targeting - and if anyone can be found, just show them the FH centre core landing attempt footage and then ask again ;)



*For example: KoreaSat launched on 30th October and the ASDS was back in port on 2nd November.

While there's no evidence of any upgrade, and while I don't expect one, I can offer this observation:

If you have two vessels, and you cannibalize one to maintain the other, even though the parts are generally available for purchasing, it tends to indicate you're managing end-of-life for that model.

Also consider JRtI is parked not in the normal berth, and the length of time this has been going on, and, well, it gets me wondering.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: acsawdey on 02/20/2018 03:47 pm
While there's no evidence of any upgrade, and while I don't expect one, I can offer this observation:

If you have two vessels, and you cannibalize one to maintain the other, even though the parts are generally available for purchasing, it tends to indicate you're managing end-of-life for that model.

Also consider JRtI is parked not in the normal berth, and the length of time this has been going on, and, well, it gets me wondering.

If SpaceX decided to build a bespoke barge for ASDS use, would they just build a copy of the Marmac 3xx barges? Or would they customize a bit, perhaps belowdecks equipment compartments at the ends to offer some more protection. Build it with a deeper draft just so they could ballast more for added stability? Use electric DP thrusters at all 4 corners with two generators for redundancy? What iterative things would they change?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/20/2018 08:09 pm
While there's no evidence of any upgrade, and while I don't expect one, I can offer this observation:

If you have two vessels, and you cannibalize one to maintain the other, even though the parts are generally available for purchasing, it tends to indicate you're managing end-of-life for that model.

Also consider JRtI is parked not in the normal berth, and the length of time this has been going on, and, well, it gets me wondering.

If SpaceX decided to build a bespoke barge for ASDS use, would they just build a copy of the Marmac 3xx barges? Or would they customize a bit, perhaps belowdecks equipment compartments at the ends to offer some more protection. Build it with a deeper draft just so they could ballast more for added stability? Use electric DP thrusters at all 4 corners with two generators for redundancy? What iterative things would they change?

Oh, I have pondered (but not doodled up yet) a 46m (151ft) square sea platform with a 42m bulls eye landing circle and almost all equipment down below deck... It would have active ballast control and a full set of electric powered tunnel thrusters built into the hull, for computer controlled position keeping (not a fan of the swiveling ducted stuff)
The four corners topside had raised triangular structures, with access doors to below deck spaces in one, and intake/exhausts for the gen sets down below in two others (seawater cooled marine sets)... Octo-grabber had a covered home in the one last corner... Antennas, cameras and other stuff on all their roofs...

BUT... I never went beyond that... as it seemed too specialized and has no real resale value for other uses...  :(

On edit...
If a boat or ship has uses beyond a special case one... Then finding someone willing to finance and build such a craft and then lease it to you first, is not too hard IMHO...
Reason being because the lease holder knows they can take the craft elsewhere later and re-lease or sell it for doing some other job or purpose... The current barges can be stripped and be barges again... no issues there...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: biosehnsucht on 02/20/2018 11:57 pm
Throw in a heaping pile of Powerpacks and "nuclear bomb proof" Tesla solar panels and you might not need the gensets very often.

Hey, if they can take a bomb blast, surely you can land a rocket on them, right ? ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/21/2018 03:45 pm
Just double-checking my facts: JRtI is still in the port of LA right? Didn't leave with GO _____ (formerly Mr. Steven)?  Presumably the other GO sibling left the port of LA as well to collect telemetry?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/21/2018 04:19 pm
And some light Mr. Steven stalking:

Former owner: http://www.seatranmarine.com/vessels-1/mr-steven

Vessel stats from USCG attached.  Can't find the ownership transfer / rename forms yet.

The other ships owned by Guice Offshore are "GO America" and "GO Patriot": http://www.guiceoffshore.com/Vessels.aspx

But they seem to do a brisk business in buying/selling ships: http://www.guiceoffshore.com/Vesselsforsalenew.aspx

And have a Mexican partner, in case an international flag was useful (I think for SpaceX/ITAR it's *not*): http://www.guiceoffshore.com/MXActivities.aspx
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 02/21/2018 06:15 pm
I checked in today with a reliable source who is knowledgeable about the Marmac barges used by SpaceX as their ASDS platforms.

He hasn't heard anything about JRtI maybe being mothballed (in response to speculation from photos showing JRtI being partially stripped) and thinks it's more likely being maintained/upgraded while some of the thruster units were apparently borrowed to replace those damaged on OCISLY during the FH demo landing.

His opinion was that the cradles built into the barges (for mounting the thrusters) were over-built, and could potentially handle larger units, if SpaceX wanted to go that route for replacing the thrusters.

He says it was a big headache to to locate a drydock that could handle the modified Marmacs for the recent required drydock because of the wings, and that only Navy drydocks could handle them now, which would be major expense vs. a $2500 drydocking in Louisiana.

He says McDonough Marine helped SpaceX obtain UWILD (underwater in lieu of drydocking) status for the Marmac(s) a few months ago, which means that specific markings have been welded on the bottom plates so that a diver with a video cam can do an underwater survey and inspect the barges, showing the conditions of each specially marked bottom plate. This eliminates the need for drydocking and greatly reduces the cost and downtime for required inspections.

Re the discussion of a new ASDS, his opinion is that our speculation that SpaceX may be building their own copy of the Marmac 302-303 design is the most probable, since keeping all equipment on deck would greatly simplify the required inspections.  He says once equipment (tanks, etc) gets placed below decks, the inspection regime changes from 2 drydockings in 5 years to annually in some cases.

(Also, as a side note, someone else recently pointed out that ships have minimum crew requirements, ie a minimum crew must be on board at all times while at sea, while barges have no such minimum crew requirements, and are allowed to be unmanned at sea. Which is another consideration that would weigh in favor of SpaceX building another barge, rather than a ship, for the new ASDS.)

In trying to research an article for NSF on the new ASDS, I called LAD Servces, the Louisiana shipyard that did the Marmac refits, told them who I was and that I was researching an article for NSF on SpaceX's new ASDS. The woman who answered the phone hung up on me before I could even finish my sentence, which means either they're building SpaceX's new ASDS and are tired of constant phone calls from reporters, or they're not building SpaceX's new ASDS but are still tired of constant phone calls from reporters.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Tomness on 02/21/2018 07:50 pm
With a Third Drone Ship being build for Cape, will one be towed between Texas launch site & The Cape or they will be build a 4th could use all 3 at Texas & The Cape at the same time for Falcon Heavy?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/22/2018 05:04 am
....
He says McDonough Marine helped SpaceX obtain UWILD (underwater in lieu of drydocking) status for the Marmac(s) a few months ago, which means that specific markings have been welded on the bottom plates so that a diver with a video cam can do an underwater survey and inspect the barges, showing the conditions of each specially marked bottom plate. This eliminates the need for drydocking and greatly reduces the cost and downtime for required inspections.

Minor nit-pick, FWIW:  It doesn't eliminate drydocking because, for example, the hull still requires anti-fouling at some point.. but it certainly reduces the need for drydocking for survey and inspection purposes.

(Also, as a side note, someone else recently pointed out that ships have minimum crew requirements, ie a minimum crew must be on board at all times while at sea, while barges have no such minimum crew requirements, and are allowed to be unmanned at sea. Which is another consideration that would weigh in favor of SpaceX building another barge, rather than a ship, for the new ASDS.)

I don't think it's as simple as that, because a vessel, any vessel, can quite legally be "not under command" and have no crew aboard.  ..So that begs question regarding whether the current flock of ASDSs are "vessels" or "barges".

Looking deeper, what I found was that, although Marmac 303 & 304 are ABS-classified "Barge" (they used to be "Deck Cargo Barge", but I digress..) the USCG, for some odd (or not so odd, depending on your penchant for conspiracy theories) reason, calls Marmac 303 an "Industrial Vessel" and Marmac 304 a "Public Vessel, Unclassified"!  Why this is interesting is that the term "Industrial Vessel" fits rather well, however a "Public Vessel" is supposedly one that is owned or chartered by the government of the United States, by a State or local government, or by the government of a foreign country and that is not engaged in commercial service!  Huh?!?  ???

Maybe I shouldn't read so much into what gets put up on a US government web site.   :(


EDIT:  To be honest, the best way to confirm crewing arrangements (or lack thereof) for an ASDS would be to have a read of a recent Notice of Arrival/Departure (NOAD) for the tug.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/22/2018 03:10 pm
Deck plans for Mr. Steven!
http://www.seatranmarine.com/_Assets/Vessels/_Specs/Vessel_GA/STM%20-%20Mr%20Steven-2.pdf

That should be handy for making a nice 3d model of the SpaceX "catcher's mitt"...

Also specs in PDF form:
http://www.seatranmarine.com/_Assets/Vessels/_Specs/STM_-_Mr_Steven_FINAL.pdf
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: niwax on 02/22/2018 04:33 pm
Looking deeper, what I found was that, although Marmac 303 & 304 are ABS-classified "Barge" (they used to be "Deck Cargo Barge", but I digress..) the USCG, for some odd (or not so odd, depending on your penchant for conspiracy theories) reason, calls Marmac 303 an "Industrial Vessel" and Marmac 304 a "Public Vessel, Unclassified"!  Why this is interesting is that the term "Industrial Vessel" fits rather well, however a "Public Vessel" is supposedly one that is owned or chartered by the government of the United States, by a State or local government, or by the government of a foreign country and that is not engaged in commercial service!  Huh?!?  ???

Could it be that one is considered mainly contracted by the government if they were leased as part of the CRS contract or using some other NASA/AF funding?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 02/22/2018 04:46 pm

Could it be that one is considered mainly contracted by the government if they were leased as part of the CRS contract or using some other NASA/AF funding?

No, neither provided funding for reused.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/22/2018 06:07 pm
Looking deeper, what I found was that, although Marmac 303 & 304 are ABS-classified "Barge" (they used to be "Deck Cargo Barge", but I digress..) the USCG, for some odd (or not so odd, depending on your penchant for conspiracy theories) reason, calls Marmac 303 an "Industrial Vessel" and Marmac 304 a "Public Vessel, Unclassified"!  Why this is interesting is that the term "Industrial Vessel" fits rather well, however a "Public Vessel" is supposedly one that is owned or chartered by the government of the United States, by a State or local government, or by the government of a foreign country and that is not engaged in commercial service!  Huh?!?  ???

Could it be that one is considered mainly contracted by the government if they were leased as part of the CRS contract or using some other NASA/AF funding?

Could it be the government, or whoever filled out the application goofed?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/22/2018 09:35 pm
Could it be the government, or whoever filled out the application goofed?

A USCG paper-shuffler?  Most likely... at least, that's my take on it.

..but the ABS would never (in my experience anyways) do that - there is too much at stake.  FWIW, my reading of the alteration from "Deck Cargo Barge" to just "Barge" for the two ASDSs (other Marmacs, including good 'ol '300, remain Deck Cargo Barges, BTW - I checked) is potentially to permit, either now or in future, unspecified non-hazardous equipment or cargo to be located below deck.  YMMV.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/22/2018 10:46 pm
SO... taking this in a subtopic direction...   :D
I wonder what the regulators will think when someone proposes unmanned cargo ships at sea...  :o

Self driving beasts where EVERYONE gets off before the harbor pilot boat pulls away upon leaving port...
AND the first soul aboard is when the pilot boat pulls alongside outside the destination port...
Otherwise it's remotely controlled and monitored via Starlink [1] from some office building somewhere...

Self driving cars and trucks... why not big ass boats?...  ???

[1] note - I though of a damn good, middle of nowhere, usage for EM's high speed service...  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/22/2018 11:16 pm
Read up thread, there has been some work on autonomous shipping (and on the regulatory regime for it)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/22/2018 11:31 pm
Read up thread, there has been some work on autonomous shipping (and on the regulatory regime for it)

In summary: since originally proposed at least 20 years ago, whilst seemingly a great idea, it hasn't happened yet and, for reasons too varied to discuss here, likely never will.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/22/2018 11:55 pm
Read up thread, there has been some work on autonomous shipping (and on the regulatory regime for it)

In summary: since originally proposed at least 20 years ago, whilst seemingly a great idea, it hasn't happened yet and, for reasons too varied to discuss here, likely never will.

Er, I seem to recall that there are some organizations actually trying it. 

But not many. Not like cars.  See https://www.google.com/search?q=autonomous+shipping ... the "Yara Birkeland" was supposed to launch this year but now it's next year....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/23/2018 12:03 am
Oh it's coming... if they can get regulators to go along with it...

https://futurism.com/the-worlds-first-fully-unmanned-train-is-officially-in-operation/ (https://futurism.com/the-worlds-first-fully-unmanned-train-is-officially-in-operation/)
https://qz.com/874589/rio-tinto-is-using-self-driving-416-ton-trucks-to-haul-raw-materials-around-australia/ (https://qz.com/874589/rio-tinto-is-using-self-driving-416-ton-trucks-to-haul-raw-materials-around-australia/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhMy8lDZfOg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhMy8lDZfOg)
Only people in the mine are those operating the digging machines... trucks are unmanned...

I mean, assuming they get OctoGrabber working good, and put some much bigger thrusters on it...
The ASDS could (in theory) go out and catch stages and come back...
With no tugboat or chase help... and with no one ever on board...  :o

On edit...
See... where I am going with this is...
IF SpaceX went with new custom ASDS's (which I keep thinking on what that would look like BTW...  :P )
Then it's a possibility... Pilot ship and SpaceX manned till it clears port...
Unmanned (with remote Sat link and someone, somewhere keeping an eye on it and it's systems)
Onto station and some octograbber drivers assisting post landing OP's remotely...
Then it sails back, and waits for the pilot boat to also bring a SpaceX driver to get aboard...
Why I restarted the subtopic...  :-\
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/23/2018 02:58 am
Read up thread, there has been some work on autonomous shipping (and on the regulatory regime for it)

In summary: since originally proposed at least 20 years ago, whilst seemingly a great idea, it hasn't happened yet and, for reasons too varied to discuss here, likely never will.

Er, I seem to recall that there are some organizations actually trying it. 

But not many. Not like cars.  See https://www.google.com/search?q=autonomous+shipping ... the "Yara Birkeland" was supposed to launch this year but now it's next year....

.and it will keep getting delayed because:

Oh it's coming... if they can get regulators to go along with it...

Exactly.  Good luck with that.  8)

I mean, assuming they get OctoGrabber working good, and put some much bigger thrusters on it...
The ASDS could (in theory) go out and catch stages and come back...
With no tugboat or chase help... and with no one ever on board...  :o

On edit...
See... where I am going with this is...
IF SpaceX went with new custom ASDS's (which I keep thinking on what that would look like BTW...  :P )
Then it's a possibility... Pilot ship and SpaceX manned till it clears port...
Unmanned (with remote Sat link and someone, somewhere keeping an eye on it and it's systems)
Onto station and some octograbber drivers assisting post landing OP's remotely...
Then it sails back, and waits for the pilot boat to also bring a SpaceX driver to get aboard...
Why I restarted the subtopic...  :-\

Ignoring autonomous trucks (Rio Tinto runs a heap of those out west of here) and cars (been there already), as I pointed out, the show-stopper isn't a technological one - it's liability.

It isn't "someone, somewhere keeping an eye on it and it's systems" that's the problem here... it's every other bunny out there keeping an eye out for it!  (a) The sea can be a rough place, where break-down can be awkward, even with a human crew + (b) the SOLAS regulations require a constant lookout on all vessels under way and cannot be changed without international consent (via the IMO) + (c) there aren't any roads (recreational boaties can, and do, go wherever the hell they like) + (d) maritime unions = not happening anytime soon(*).

*= maybe sometime after we eliminate pilots from passenger aircraft.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/23/2018 06:16 pm
Nice pictures of Mr. Steven returning to port:


Article with some more pictures:

Quote
SpaceX’s recovered fairing spotted sailing into port on Mr Steven

ByEric Ralph
Posted on February 23, 2018

Just 24 hours after gently landing in the ocean, SpaceX recovery technicians have successfully recovered one half of an intact Falcon payload fairing for the first time ever. Photos of the return to Port of San Pedro in Southern California, captured by Teslarati photographer Pauline Acalin, show that the halve recovered is in amazing condition ...

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-recovered-fairing-spotted-mr-steven-boat/

Very clearly has "Mr. Steven" still painted on the bow, though.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pb2000 on 02/23/2018 09:27 pm
Very clearly has "Mr. Steven" still painted on the bow, though.
The name is far too good to change.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 02/24/2018 12:36 am
looks like at the base of each arm of the fairing net system there is a Braden brand winch to let down the net.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: hallmh on 02/25/2018 06:04 pm
Someone commented that A Shortfall of Gravitas isn't an 'official' Culture ship name. This seems to be covered by Iain M. Banks's Q&A in 2000:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2000/sep/11/iainbanks-science-fiction (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2000/sep/11/iainbanks-science-fiction)
Quote
MattB242
Somebody once told me that the ships 'Very Little Gravitas Indeed' and 'Zero Gravitas' were a response to a scathing review. Is this true?

IainMBanks
Yes. But it was a scathing review of Culture ship-naming policy delivered by another Involved civilisation. They suggested that such enormously powerful and intellectually refined entities ought to have names with a little more gravitas, to reflect their near-god-like status; the immediate and sustained reaction of one of the Culture's ship manufacturies was to name all its subsequent vessels things like: Stood Far Back When The Gravitas Was Handed Out; Gravitas, What Gravitas?; Gravitas... Gravitas... No, Don't Help Me, I'll Get It In A Moment; Gravitas Free Zone; Low Gravitas Warning Signal, etc etc (including the Zen-like Absolutely No You-No-What). I am so sad I have a separate list of the Gravitas ships at home. It currently runs to about 20, I think.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/25/2018 06:14 pm
I think the practicalities of painting the name on the deck played a role too.  The ships are *named for* ships in the culture series, they are not supposed to *be* the ships in the culture series. "A Shortfall of Gravitas" is a perfectly intelligible tribute to the Culture ship "Experiencing A Significant Gravitas Shortfall"...and is much more likely to read well when painted on deck, etc.

ASoG is also much more pronouncible than EaSGS, if you're going to go that way.  And they both work equally well as a meta comment on the "seriousness" of SpaceX endeavors.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/25/2018 09:47 pm
Very clearly has "Mr. Steven" still painted on the bow, though.
The name is far too good to change.

FWIW, given the stated leasing and survey arrangements, it's very likely also far too difficult to change.  ie. they could, if they really wanted to, but it isn't worth the cost, time and effort.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 02/25/2018 10:32 pm
FWIW, given the stated leasing and survey arrangements, it's very likely also far too difficult to change.  ie. they could, if they really wanted to, but it isn't worth the cost, time and effort.

Is there actually any nontrivial paperwork if the boat owners choose to change the name?
Certainly, there would be a nominal fee from them to do this for SpaceX, or is there more that makes it 'too difficult'.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/25/2018 10:46 pm
FWIW, given the stated leasing and survey arrangements, it's very likely also far too difficult to change.  ie. they could, if they really wanted to, but it isn't worth the cost, time and effort.

Is there actually any nontrivial paperwork if the boat owners choose to change the name?
Certainly, there would be a nominal fee from them to do this for SpaceX, or is there more that makes it 'too difficult'.

Well... for starters, there's the dressing up in funny clothes and making ritual sacrifices to Poseidon...  ;D

Being in commercial survey, there is a lot more filling in and filing of forms than an ordinary boat-owner might have to endure. It's all non-trivial, but it's really just paperwork and costs time and money that could be better spent elsewhere.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/26/2018 02:52 am
Spent some time this weekend getting a rough idea what kind of payload a SWATH boat can carry...
I knew is was well down from a normal mono hull... question was how bad was it...
I also figured in bending the rules a bit and make it a triple hull... still a SWATH...  8)

Modeled up a 4m long slice of a Neo-Panamax sized hull (48m wide and target 14m draft... BIG azz hull
Used 50mm thick plating in a typical style of framing on 4m cross center lines.
Made all the calcs I was interested in... then stuck two slices together in an 8m slice and posted here for the fun of it.

The 8m section slice pictured... in the middle of a complete hull .
Displaces 2458.8 metric tons of fresh water (1 tonnes = 1 cubic meter water) at optimum draft shown.
Made of steel, it weighs 1840 tonnes gross... in drydock.
Made of Aluminium (same 50mm gauge), it weighs only 602 tonnes.
But my goodness, what an aluminium hull boat would cost on this scale...  :o

Bottom line, IMHO...
Looks like SWATH boats on a large scale are doable, but not practical for any real serious payload hauling...
Makes a nice, big, FAST landing platform though...  :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/26/2018 03:09 am

The 8m section slice pictured... in the middle of a complete hull .
Displaces 2458.8 metric tons of fresh water (1 tonnes = 1 cubic meter water) at optimum draft shown.
Made of steel, it weighs 1840 tonnes gross... in drydock.

So it could carry 75 metric tons of payload per meter of length, if built in steel.  The F9R S1 weighs 25.6 metric tons empty. MARMAC 301 is 90m long. Seems like it would work fine.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/26/2018 03:35 am

The 8m section slice pictured... in the middle of a complete hull .
Displaces 2458.8 metric tons of fresh water (1 tonnes = 1 cubic meter water) at optimum draft shown.
Made of steel, it weighs 1840 tonnes gross... in drydock.

So it could carry 75 metric tons of payload per meter of length, if built in steel.  The F9R S1 weighs 25.6 metric tons empty. MARMAC 301 is 90m long. Seems like it would work fine.

Empty of ballast water... the 301 grosses 4126 tonnes.. Full load 9706 m tons more
http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/mcd-spec-sheets_v8-marmac_301.pdf (http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/mcd-spec-sheets_v8-marmac_301.pdf)
Quote
OCEAN DECK CARGO BARGES. MARMAC 301. MARMAC 302, MARMAC 303, MARMAC 304. Length. 300'.
 (91.44m). Uniform Deck Load. 2500 lbs/ft2 (12.2 T/m2). Width. 100'. (30.48m).
 Cargo Capacity at Loadline 10699 s. tons (9706 m tons).
 Depth. 18'. (5.49m). Gross Tonnage. 4126. Loadline Draft. 13' 10-3/4” (4.23m).
My opinion... no way your lifting full ballast ASDS's out of the water except a full on heavy lift boat...
Custom made, self draining ASDS's... I think it may be possible... MAY BE...

Work in progress... stopped to see what the mother boat can lift before continuing.
48m square... and all familiar items at eyeball scales. (octo, bullseye, human, about life size)
There is NO hull under it yet... just the top was roughed out first to see if it was a do-able layout.
It needs to be self ballisting... sinks down when put in water... water all drains out when lifted.
Shear mass and deep draft is what steadies the barge in the water...
It will be next weekend, before I mess any more with this (CAD PC is offsite from my work and home)
And that's assuming I'm in the mood to mess with it... ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/26/2018 03:40 am
Modeled up a 4m long slice of a Neo-Panamax sized hull (48m wide and target 14m draft... BIG azz hull
Used 50mm thick plating in a typical style of framing on 4m cross center lines.
Made all the calcs I was interested in... then stuck two slices together in an 8m slice and posted here for the fun of it.

Nice job!.. but 50mm plating??  Must be a mistake: This isn't a battleship. 8-10mm would be more typical.

BTW, the major issue with SWATH hulls (and the reason not many are in service) is that, unlike conventional barge hulls, they don't cope well with wide-ranging payloads.. ie. you can optimise for a landed core aboard or without, but designing for both might be kinda tricky.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: John Alan on 02/26/2018 03:59 am
Modeled up a 4m long slice of a Neo-Panamax sized hull (48m wide and target 14m draft... BIG azz hull
Used 50mm thick plating in a typical style of framing on 4m cross center lines.
Made all the calcs I was interested in... then stuck two slices together in an 8m slice and posted here for the fun of it.

Nice job!.. but 50mm plating??  Must be a mistake: This isn't a battleship. 8-10mm would be more typical.

BTW, the major issue with SWATH hulls (and the reason not many are in service) is that, unlike conventional barge hulls, they don't cope well with wide-ranging payloads.. ie. you can optimise for a landed core aboard or without, but designing for both might be kinda tricky.

Thanks.. :)
I was not sure on thickness, on such large plate spans and figuring pounding thru waves at 40+ knots.
SO I went almost 2 inch (50mm)... plus was way easier to see it on the scale this boat is on screen...  ;)
There is active ballast going on to trim the height on this big hull slice shown...
Heck at 14m draft... it is too deep for Port Canaveral... have to pump ballast till it floats up to the bottom of the straight legs, or 11m, for home port...  ;)
I'm no naval architect... Just a guy who like to play on a CAD machine and read the inter web for info on topic.

Current train of thought...
...is a very fast, light lift, Mother Ship, and at least 3 neo-ASDS's in a open top dry well...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/26/2018 05:10 am
Thanks.. :)
I was not sure on thickness, on such large plate spans and figuring pounding thru waves at 40+ knots.
SO I went almost 2 inch (50mm)... plus was way easier to see it on the scale this boat is on screen...  ;)

Fair enough. :)  In practice there will be many, many welded ribs, stringers and floors supporting the hull plating along the sides of the hull, looking and acting like a giant steel mesh.  If you wanted to get really serious, there are vessel construction standards available for download from the ABS web site (link below) however, for this exercise, you wouldn't go far wrong using the Marmac hull plans and build data posted upthread.

https://ww2.eagle.org/en/rules-and-resources/rules-and-guides.html
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/26/2018 03:06 pm
And some light Mr. Steven stalking:

Former owner: http://www.seatranmarine.com/vessels-1/mr-steven

Vessel stats from USCG attached.  Can't find the ownership transfer / rename forms yet.

Somewhat heavier stalking: I requested the public "Abstract of Title" records from the Coast Guard (attached).

Short story: (Still) apparently owned by "Mr. Steven LLC"; no name change or title change as of 2/26/2018.  Of course, given that Mr. Steven is owned by an LLC, any transfer in ownership would probably be a transfer of ownership of the LLC, not the boat itself.  So if someone wanted to continue the stalking, they'd go pull records on Mr. Steven LLC (mailing address 107 HWY 90 WEST, NEW IBERIA, LA 70560 -- which is the address of Seatran Marine, LLC).

The boat is worth over $50 million, if I'm reading this correctly.  The LLC borrowed $22.8 million against the boat in 2015, then paid it back and borrowed $50 million against the boat 5 months later.  The holder of that mortgage (First NBC Bank) went bankrupt in April 2017 (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/debtx-to-sell-1-billion-in-loans-for-fdic-from-first-nbc-bank-300463639.html); its loans were bought from the FDIC by Summit Investment Management (http://www.summit-investment.com/) earlier this month, for maybe 50 cents on the dollar (or maybe 50% of the principal has been paid off, but the round number looks suspicious).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kdhilliard on 02/26/2018 03:58 pm
The boat is worth over $50 million, if I'm reading this correctly.  ...

$50 million seems like a lot when compared to the "about $7,500 per day" charter rate suggested in the feature article.  That represents over 18 years of continuous daily-rate chartering!  Such a dismal return suggests one of those figures isn't right.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/26/2018 04:34 pm
The boat is worth over $50 million, if I'm reading this correctly.  ...

$50 million seems like a lot when compared to the "about $7,500 per day" charter rate suggested in the feature article.  That represents over 18 years of continuous daily-rate chartering!  Such a dismal return suggests one of those figures isn't right.
There's definitely something interesting going on: the boat was bought from the builder for $1 (!) which suggests that some other form of compensation was made.  Perhaps the builder created the LLC, then sold the LLC  to SeaTran instead of the boat. Perhaps the $22 million number is the actual cost of the boat, and the $50 million loan includes other assets (a second boat?) transferred to Mr Steven LLC as additional collateral for that mortgage. Maybe those two boats were split into separate mortgages in the latest transaction.

Financial engineering.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/26/2018 05:38 pm
The boat is worth over $50 million, if I'm reading this correctly.  ...

$50 million seems like a lot when compared to the "about $7,500 per day" charter rate suggested in the feature article.  That represents over 18 years of continuous daily-rate chartering!  Such a dismal return suggests one of those figures isn't right.
Or, it explains the dire status of the previous owners...

ABCD: Always Be Counting Down

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/26/2018 09:28 pm
There's definitely something interesting going on: the boat was bought from the builder for $1 (!) which suggests that some other form of compensation was made.  Perhaps the builder created the LLC, then sold the LLC  to SeaTran instead of the boat.

That's quite common... more common than you'd think.  I made the point upthread that the paper-work associated with changing a vessel's name is non-trivial? well, you should see the paperwork required for registration and classification of a new build!!  It starts with the Builder's Certificate and can fill a small bookshelf.

Changing company ownership is far, far easier than changing any aspect of a commercial vessel's particulars, including it's name or the name of the owners.  Besides, you're not just buying the boat, you're buying everything that goes along with it (spare parts, maintenance contracts, berthing leases - even the captain in some cases). Some classification societies (like ABS) are trying to make this easier by putting as much as they can on-line, but their contribution is just a drop in the ocean.


EDIT: FWIW, a boat's build cost and what it is worth are two entirely different things.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/26/2018 10:42 pm
EDIT: FWIW, a boat's build cost and what it is worth are two entirely different things.
As the French discovered with those massive oil tankers, scrapped not that much after they were built.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/27/2018 12:11 am
It certainly suggests that the ownership history of Mr. Steven LLC is likely to be more interesting to dig into than the ownership history of Mr. Steven the boat.  That's beyond my internet stalking abilities, though. I assume Mr Steven LLC is a Louisiana company, but that's just based on the mailing address on file with the USCG (which is the same as SeaTran's address).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 02/27/2018 12:31 am
It certainly suggests that the ownership history of Mr. Steven LLC is likely to be more interesting to dig into than the ownership history of Mr. Steven the boat.  That's beyond my internet stalking abilities, though. I assume Mr Steven LLC is a Louisiana company, but that's just based on the mailing address on file with the USCG (which is the same as SeaTran's address).

My guess is that the state's LLC filings won't be much use. They'll list the owner(s) of the LLC and the respective shares, but it's a good bet that each such owner will, itself, be another business entity. And so on, and so on ... "It's turtles all the way down!" indeed.  You will probably also be able to find the LLC's registered agent for service of process, likely some company that exists for just such a purpose and has "offices" (mailing addresses) all over the country.

Yeah, I've done my share of corporate due dilligence work and litigation.

Anyway, you might get lucky and find out more but just don't expect to going into the task.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ajmarco on 02/27/2018 12:34 am
Well did a quick search on the state site, a person is given as the manager of the LLC. But all adresses are the same and are that of SeaTran Marine.

See attached for the details.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 02/27/2018 01:30 am
Well did a quick search on the state site, a person is given as the manager of the LLC. But all adresses are the same and are that of SeaTran Marine.

See attached for the details.
The registered agent on file is Blake Miguez, the President/CEO of SeaTran Marine, LLC: http://www.seatranmarine.com/team/blake-j-miguez
The other agent listed is Blake's father --- SeaTran is a family business (as is Guice Offshore).

Since the LLC hasn't changed ownership recently (according to your docs) and the LLC still owns the boat, I think it's pretty certain that SeaTran still effectively owns the boat.  Guice Offshore must be under contract to operate it, or something.  Makes me wonder if that handsome GO logo is actually painted on, maybe it's just a large magnetic sign.

This makes the rumor that the sailors have a GO (something) name for this boat more intriguing; are we catching a glimpse of the future with a sale pending that hasn't yet gotten through its paperwork, or is GO (whatever) just a sailors' joke/nickname?  If it's a joke name, that's even more fun. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/27/2018 02:04 am
I thought WE started that rumor that it had a different name.... or maybe it was FB. do we know that the sailors do?

(oh the minutia we obsess over)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 02/27/2018 09:05 am
There's definitely something interesting going on: the boat was bought from the builder for $1 (!) which suggests that some other form of compensation was made.  Perhaps the builder created the LLC, then sold the LLC  to SeaTran instead of the boat. Perhaps the $22 million number is the actual cost of the boat, and the $50 million loan includes other assets (a second boat?) transferred to Mr Steven LLC as additional collateral for that mortgage. Maybe those two boats were split into separate mortgages in the latest transaction.

Financial engineering.

It's relatively common for the Bill of Sale (it may be called something different in commercial shipping in the US) of a vessel to state the purchase price as $1 / £1 "and other considerations" - with the other (unspecified) considerations being the rest of the money.

There would also be an invoice which accounts for the transfer of the full sum of money (and presumably any taxation).

Why? Because when you come to sell the vessel, whoever buys it will get the paperwork (ie original Bill of Sale) which won't disclose the actual amount paid for it.

Similarly from a boat builder's point of view, if they can withhold the exact price, the may be advantageous when seeking further contracts.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: lesterthedolphin on 02/27/2018 08:51 pm
I saw a picture a few days ago on how JRTI wasn't in fit shape for a landing, and had a lot of required parts missing:
https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/7y95lz/just_read_the_instructions_taken_today_in_long/?sort=new

Iridium5 is due to land on it in a month - what are the odds it will be fixed by then?
Is there a possibility that it ends up being expendable?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 02/27/2018 09:18 pm
I saw a picture a few days ago on how JRTI wasn't in fit shape for a landing, and had a lot of required parts missing:
https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/7y95lz/just_read_the_instructions_taken_today_in_long/?sort=new

Iridium5 is due to land on it in a month - what are the odds it will be fixed by then?
Is there a possibility that it ends up being expendable?

Iridium 5 is a going on a used Block 3 (or 4?) booster. SpaceX has been discarding those lately, so expendable seems likely.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 02/28/2018 02:20 pm
Block 4.

None of which have yet flown twice, so there's no history to indicate whether they will be limited to 2 flights (as appears to have happened with Block 3).

The pro-landing argument would be to get data on a twice-flown Block 4 core; the anti-landing argument would be whether or not they have a functioning ASDS to land on.

Unless they have the margins to get a Block 4 core back to VAFB...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Mader Levap on 02/28/2018 03:26 pm
I don't think they will bother with re-using block 4 more than once.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 03/19/2018 10:42 am
Octagrabber, apparently.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 03/20/2018 08:26 am
One thing that struck me about the photos of the Octograbber, and as commented on on that thread, was the lack of any cabling. Either they just haven't hooked it up yet, or they've made it self-contained.

I can't see any sign that they've put any kind of shielding over the Octograbber lair, right behind the door but forward of the white container. I figured they would, given that it got blasted by a landing F9 (if I remember right).

I also wonder if the state of JRTI (apparently out of service at the moment) is due in part to SpaceX doing a bit of rearranging in order to create an Octograbber lair on it.

And in possible other ASDS news, do we know if Elsbeth III is still an ASDS tug? The reason I ask is that, per Vesslefinder
https://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367017460 
She's been in Morgan City Beach (where, I think, the ASDS were converted) since Feb 24th. It made me wonder if the reason is that that's where the new ASDS is being built?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cppetrie on 03/20/2018 01:36 pm
One thing that struck me about the photos of the Octograbber, and as commented on on that thread, was the lack of any cabling. Either they just haven't hooked it up yet, or they've made it self-contained.

I can't see any sign that they've put any kind of shielding over the Octograbber lair, right behind the door but forward of the white container. I figured they would, given that it got blasted by a landing F9 (if I remember right).

I also wonder if the state of JRTI (apparently out of service at the moment) is due in part to SpaceX doing a bit of rearranging in order to create an Octograbber lair on it.

And in possible other ASDS news, do we know if Elsbeth III is still an ASDS tug? The reason I ask is that, per Vesslefinder
https://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367017460 
She's been in Morgan City Beach (where, I think, the ASDS were converted) since Feb 24th. It made me wonder if the reason is that that's where the new ASDS is being built?
Wasn’t blasted during a landing. RP-1 fire from fuel that dripped from stage and pooled in the area of the Octagrabber garage. Probably advisable to put some system in place to prevent fuel from pooling there but otherwise no additional armor needed.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vaporcobra on 03/21/2018 03:36 pm
GO Searcher is back to doing something within a few miles of the Port entrance, lots and lots of arrival/departure notices similar to what she was doing during Crew Dragon recovery ops validation. Anyone at the Port? ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alastor on 03/22/2018 02:29 pm
GO Searcher is back to doing something within a few miles of the Port entrance, lots and lots of arrival/departure notices similar to what she was doing during Crew Dragon recovery ops validation. Anyone at the Port? ;)

On the facebook group, Go Searcher pictures have been published yesterday, with a dragon in the back.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1853492181347677&set=gm.10156432667171318&type=3&theater&ifg=1

So I guess we are seeing similar activities.

Mr. Steven has also been spotted from the starbucks of Palos Verdes around the same time
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1991007950927067&set=gm.10156432852011318&type=3&theater&ifg=1
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AncientU on 03/26/2018 07:25 pm
New article with nice Roomba image:
Quote
SpaceX’s drone ship fleet spied prepping for future rocket recoveries
Quote
...nicknamed Roomba or Octagrabber...
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-drone-ship-fleet-spied-rocket-recovery/

Optimus Prime. Octopus prime. Not Roomba.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vaporcobra on 03/26/2018 07:47 pm
New article with nice Roomba image:
Quote
SpaceX’s drone ship fleet spied prepping for future rocket recoveries
Quote
...nicknamed Roomba or Octagrabber...
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-drone-ship-fleet-spied-rocket-recovery/

Optimus Prime. Octopus prime. Not Roomba.

Heheheh. It's a lovingly-chosen nickname ;D but fiiiiiiine, I'll stick with Octagrabber...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/06/2018 06:16 pm
What's up ASoG?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/09/2018 03:58 am
What's up ASoG?

It's been a mystery. A reliable source familiar with the two existing Marmac-based ASDS's says McDonough Marine is not part of any new ASDS procurement, and doesn't have any idea where it might be happening. He thinks SpaceX may have gone to a different builder on the West Coast, which would explain why the usual folks in Louisiana don't seem to be involved this time.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/10/2018 01:33 am
What's up ASoG?

It's been a mystery. A reliable source familiar with the two existing Marmac-based ASDS's says McDonough Marine is not part of any new ASDS procurement, and doesn't have any idea where it might be happening. He thinks SpaceX may have gone to a different builder on the West Coast, which would explain why the usual folks in Louisiana don't seem to be involved this time.

If they've decided to build from scratch (as some have suggested) it'll be a pile of largely-unrecognisable steel plates locked away in a shed someplace and isn't likely to see light of day until launch time.  That could be months away.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 04/11/2018 09:37 am
Also possible that ASoG will be a new design, closer to the BFS launcher animations.  Elon's announcement might have just marked the start of design work; actual construction might be some way off.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kdhilliard on 04/11/2018 11:59 am
Also possible that ASoG will be a new design, closer to the BFS launcher animations.  Elon's announcement might have just marked the start of design work; actual construction might be some way off.

Interesting possibility, given what he said during the FH post-launch presser about BFS hopper tests:
Quote
Well, by hopper tests, I mean kind of like, where we had the Grasshopper program for Falcon 9, where we just had the rocket take off and land in Texas, at our Texas test site. So that would be, we'll either do that at our South Texas launch site, near Brownsville, or do ship to ship. We're not sure yet whether ship to ship or Brownsville, but most likely it's going to happen at our Brownsville location, because we've got a lot of land with nobody around, and so if it blows up, it's cool.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: testguy on 04/11/2018 01:22 pm
Let me speculate further and state that the new ASDS under construction may actually ultimately be used for BFR/S.

First here is what we know:
A. SpaceX is flexible and is uses continuing improvement as seen in Falcon 9 airframe and engines, GSE, and ASDS.
B. There has surprisingly has been less construction activity at BC than we would have expected by now considering the schedule for BFS.
C. BC EIS currently has limits on numbers of launches per year.  Yes we know this could be modified but we have not seen evidence of that yet.
D. SpaceX wants to retire Falcon 9 and Falcon 9 Heavy as soon as BFR/S comes on line, ASAP.
E. SpaceX has stated that they are looking at BFS hopes possibly from shore to ship or even ship to ship.
F. The 2017 IAC video shows the point to point BFR/S being launched off a large sea platform that also contains the GSE for refueling.

Given all of the above, I would speculate that the ASDS under construction is much larger than OCISLY and ultimately could develop into the sea point to point configuration shown in the 2017 IAC video. 
Here is why:
1. Why would you spend capital funds on a OCISLY clone when you already know you want to retire it ASAP.  Possibly before you could recover your return on investment (ROI)?
2.  Building a large ASDS now that could ultimately be modified to a full sea launch BFR/S could explain why construction at BC currently appears sparse.
3.  The large ASDS could initially be used for Falcon Heavy recoveries.  We know already that will not be in high demand and will be relatively short lived.
4. The large ASDS  if used for BFS would get around the EIS restrictions and could explain the lack of EIS modification activity.
5.  BFS hops, I believe could be launched of a concrete pad just as Grasshopper was.  After all that is a better platform that it will initially have on MARS.  The initial hoppers could land on the large ASDS to midegate  fears of the BC community.
6. Fuel/oxidizer tanks an GSE equipment could be added to the large ASDS latter when it could be used for BFR/S launches.
7. Not sure I see a need for a causeway or fuel and oxidizer lines running out to the large ADDS.  Why not just transport by ship to fill the tanks on the ASDS.  Control of GSE could simply be performed from a shore control room linked via a fire optic network.

It would be exciting, at least to me if SpaceX was using this approach because it would indicate that they are progressing faster than many perceive.

Thoughts?

I thought I would repost my speculation from 2/13/18.  Based on recent posts, it looks more likely this may actually be the case.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/12/2018 03:24 am
The one point I would mention re the above speculation is that Elon did say ASoG would be based at the Cape, where it's clearly needed to help with the ramped-up F9 flight rate, as well as for FH booster landings, so it will have to conform to Port Canaveral limitations on dock space, etc.

Don't know what those limiting numbers are, but they may prevent a BFR-size ASDS from operating at the Port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/12/2018 04:37 am
The one point I would mention re the above speculation is that Elon did say ASoG would be based at the Cape, where it's clearly needed to help with the ramped-up F9 flight rate, as well as for FH booster landings, so it will have to conform to Port Canaveral limitations on dock space, etc.

Don't know what those limiting numbers are, but they may prevent a BFR-size ASDS from operating at the Port.

Might be a good idea to look out for new berth lease announcements (or enlargement of SpaceX's existing holding) by Port Canaveral:

https://www.portcanaveral.com/About/Recent-News


EDIT:  ..but do keep in mind it may be a year or more before they need the extra parking space... so don't hold your breath.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 04/14/2018 08:36 pm
ASoG is being custom built. What if it's  sized for BFR/S but will first be used for F9?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vaporcobra on 04/14/2018 09:04 pm
ASoG is being custom built.

Is that a guess or a sourced claim?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 04/14/2018 09:19 pm
ASoG is being custom built.

Is that a guess or a sourced claim?

If the below is correct then it's not likely a Marmac built by built by McDonough in Louisiana. With BFS test flights coming up, possibly ship to ship, something with LCH4/LOX storage seems in order. Sounds like a custom build.

Except they are making third one right now... :P
Do we have any more information on that (public?)

No, and it's puzzling. I've even been told by one person involved with the current ASDS ships (not a SpaceX employee)  that his group doesn't know of a third drone ship under construction and doesn't know why Elon said a third one was/is under construction.

The most likely explanation I can come up with is that the third ASDS is being built far from where the first two were built, and by a different company, possibly on the West Coast. If so, we're not likely to get any more info until Elon tweets an aerial  pic of it like he did before.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: testguy on 04/14/2018 11:55 pm
ASoG is being custom built. What if it's  sized for BFR/S but will first be used for F9?

Didn't I say that?


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 04/15/2018 03:39 am
ASoG is being custom built. What if it's  sized for BFR/S but will first be used for F9?

Didn't I say that?

Yes, but that tree may have gotten lost in the forest of your post.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/16/2018 12:08 am
If the below is correct then it's not likely a Marmac built by built by McDonough in Louisiana. With BFS test flights coming up, possibly ship to ship, something with LCH4/LOX storage seems in order.

Allow me to highlight what was posted only slightly up-thread:

The one point I would mention re the above speculation is that Elon did say ASoG would be based at the Cape, where it's clearly needed to help with the ramped-up F9 flight rate, as well as for FH booster landings, so it will have to conform to Port Canaveral limitations on dock space, etc.

Don't know what those limiting numbers are, but they may prevent a BFR-size ASDS from operating at the Port.

Emphasis mine.  And to add to that, the chances of getting anything carrying a significant amount of not just LOX but LCH4 also on a single vessel into one of the busiest cruise ports in the world is not just slim.. it's non-existent.

For these reasons, if it's restricted to using Port Canaveral, it's highly unlikely ASoG will be both (a) enormous and (b) have on-board LCH4/LOX storage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/16/2018 01:45 am
BFS doesn’t have much wider leg stance than F9, if any wider at all. Could land it on existing ASDSes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: the_other_Doug on 04/17/2018 08:59 pm
BFS doesn’t have much wider leg stance than F9, if any wider at all. Could land it on existing ASDSes.

Well, yeah -- but the dry weight, notwithstanding any residual fuel in the tanks, of the BFS is gonna be several times the dry weight of a Falcon 9 first stage.

I'm not one to run the numbers, but I'd have to think there is an upper limit to the amount of mass you can slam down onto the deck of a converted barge and expect the whole thing to remain stable.  Also an upper limit to the stability of the landing on a barge with height of the center of mass of the BFS as opposed to the F9.

Just seems like the whole system would be liable to go unstable a lot more easily than the F9 first stage landed configuration, thus requiring a landing platform with a higher fraction of the total mass of the barge/spaceship system than a current ASDS can supply.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 04/17/2018 09:08 pm
BFS doesn’t have much wider leg stance than F9, if any wider at all. Could land it on existing ASDSes.

Well, yeah -- but the dry weight, notwithstanding any residual fuel in the tanks, of the BFS is gonna be several times the dry weight of a Falcon 9 first stage.

I'm not one to run the numbers, but I'd have to think there is an upper limit to the amount of mass you can slam down onto the deck of a converted barge and expect the whole thing to remain stable.  Also an upper limit to the stability of the landing on a barge with height of the center of mass of the BFS as opposed to the F9.

Just seems like the whole system would be liable to go unstable a lot more easily than the F9 first stage landed configuration, thus requiring a landing platform with a higher fraction of the total mass of the barge/spaceship system than a current ASDS can supply.

The mass of rocket stages, even fueled, is insignificant when compared to barges, with or without flooded tanks.
The Marmac barges have been used to float objects of several thousand tons.
The presence of tanks, like LOX and LCH4, not their mass, would be an issue, but not for stability at sea.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 04/17/2018 09:10 pm
BFS doesn’t have much wider leg stance than F9, if any wider at all. Could land it on existing ASDSes.

Well, yeah -- but the dry weight, notwithstanding any residual fuel in the tanks, of the BFS is gonna be several times the dry weight of a Falcon 9 first stage.

I'm not one to run the numbers, but I'd have to think there is an upper limit to the amount of mass you can slam down onto the deck of a converted barge and expect the whole thing to remain stable.  Also an upper limit to the stability of the landing on a barge with height of the center of mass of the BFS as opposed to the F9.

Just seems like the whole system would be liable to go unstable a lot more easily than the F9 first stage landed configuration, thus requiring a landing platform with a higher fraction of the total mass of the barge/spaceship system than a current ASDS can supply.

The barge is roughly 100 times heavier than a BFB. I'm pretty sure any stability issues can be mitigated.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Seamus on 04/20/2018 05:05 pm
Anybody have any updates on OCISLY coming back in?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Michael Baylor on 04/21/2018 03:04 am
Anybody have any updates on OCISLY coming back in?
My current estimate is an arrival NET 8:30 AM local on Saturday.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Michael Baylor on 04/21/2018 12:45 pm
Now 11:15 for the arrival. They slowed down slightly over night.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/21/2018 01:57 pm
Both Hawk and Go Quest now showing on MarineTraffic.com, 7 to 8 NM from port doing a bit over 5 kts.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/21/2018 02:01 pm
Quote
Lots of movement at the port, Dragon has relocated alongside fairing. Booster is definitely coming in soon. #SpaceXFleet #SpaceX @SpaceX @julia_bergeron @NASASpaceflight

https://twitter.com/thaerospacegeek/status/987662292635586561
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pb2000 on 04/21/2018 03:29 pm
They've stopped offshore, probably to wait for the pilot boat that appears to be headed towards them.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/21/2018 04:10 pm
Quote
#Falcon9 first stage booster from Wednesday's mission of @NASA_TESS spotted aboard #OCISLY along the horizon. Photo from Jetty Park @SpaceX @elonmusk #SpaceX

https://twitter.com/marcuscotephoto/status/987708331337961472

Edit to add: https://twitter.com/marcuscotephoto/status/987716796651327488
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/21/2018 04:12 pm
Quote
~5-10 minutes out #falcon9 #ocisly #spacex @SpaceX

https://twitter.com/marcuscotephoto/status/987723451271208960
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/21/2018 04:24 pm
Quote
Its here! @NASASpaceflight #SpaceX #SpaceXFleet

https://twitter.com/thaerospacegeek/status/987728150363803648
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 04/21/2018 04:28 pm
Looks like OctaGrabber in action!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/21/2018 04:32 pm
More Octagrabber

https://twitter.com/johnkrausphotos/status/987729880816193537
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pb2000 on 04/21/2018 04:47 pm
Soot deposit looks nice and uniform, without all the usual crispiness imparted by the grid fins.

Edit: Lots of rain in the forecast, so she may get a bath.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/21/2018 04:56 pm
Close-ups

https://twitter.com/thaerospacegeek/status/987735510637477888
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ThePonjaX on 04/21/2018 05:18 pm
We need a video of that octagrabber on action.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 04/21/2018 05:28 pm
We need a video of that octagrabber on action.

I'd say now they'll have the videos from the ASDS, there will be a chance!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 04/21/2018 07:36 pm
I thought there was a dedicated Octograbber thread? I couldn’t find one.

Regardless - I find this photo of particular interest. It appears to have a specific camera (and other stuff) on a stalk dedicated to looking at, and possibly doing other actions, on the drain ports.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180421/a39b83a12a54f320c8070de4b671a5de.jpg)

(Photo credit to @WeReportSpace)

Edit to add - or am I completely insane?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 04/21/2018 08:03 pm
General Roomba, AKA Octograbber, thread starts here...
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42511.0
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/21/2018 09:03 pm
Quote
#Falcon9 at port Canaveral this afternoon, man on man lift for scale #SpaceX @spaceX #ocisly via @SpaceflightIns

https://twitter.com/timelapsejunkie/status/987797490765266944
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: deruch on 04/21/2018 10:38 pm
Regardless - I find this photo of particular interest. It appears to have a specific camera (and other stuff) on a stalk dedicated to looking at, and possibly doing other actions, on the drain ports.

Edit to add - or am I completely insane?

The camera isn't looking at the ports.  It's looking at the "hand" on the end of the Octagrabber's arm that attaches to the booster's hard point.  It's just like the cameras on the LEE at end of the SSRMS.  They look to see that the grabbing element is properly aligned.

The draining ports are connected manually by the crew once they get on board the ASDS.  The Octagrabber is only to secure and stabilize the booster so that there isn't a danger of it moving (in rough conditions) or falling over (in the event of a hard or off angle landing that compromises one or more of the legs but still leaves the booster standing) while the crew is approaching. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 04/21/2018 10:50 pm
i wonder if somehwere along the way they decided they only need 3 grabbers instead of all 4? seems like there has been ample time to get the 4th functioning if they had wanted. hmm.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/22/2018 04:02 am
https://youtu.be/38aFKc7Y3EY (https://youtu.be/38aFKc7Y3EY)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 04/22/2018 08:50 am
Quote
The first stage booster of the TESS mission (formally known as B1045) spotted on Of Course I Still Love You in Florida. Following a picture perfect landing, this Block 4 booster is planned to be reused for the next CRS mission later this year. Photo Credit @damato_26

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bh21U-8j4E0/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/22/2018 07:16 pm
Quote
The first stage booster from @NASA_TESS's @SpaceX launch, B1045, is back in port aboard the drone ship Of Course I Still Love You. This is the 24th successful Falcon booster recovery from SpaceX.

https://twitter.com/nasa_tess/status/988129786194210816
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DatUser14 on 04/22/2018 07:35 pm
Hawk is up to something :)  destination Tampa.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/22/2018 08:00 pm
https://youtu.be/1fcTupys3_g (https://youtu.be/1fcTupys3_g)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Slarty1080 on 04/22/2018 09:38 pm
How many ASPDS's are there and what are their names?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: e of pi on 04/22/2018 09:43 pm
How many ASPDS's are there and what are their names?
Three total have existed to date. The first was Marmac 300, known as "Just Read the Instructions". The second was Marmac 304, "Of Course I Still Love You." When the lease on Marmac 300 expired, they acquired Marmac 303, which transited to the Pacific via the Panama canal before final wing installation and inherited the name "Just Read the Instructions".

Apparently a fourth (third active) is to be built or is under conversion, called "A Shortfall of Gravitas", with the base vessel or design unknown.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/23/2018 05:29 pm
Quote
SpaceX's #Falcon9 first stage from the #TESS launch being unloaded at Port Canaveral.  Overhead view from the top of Exploration Tower.  Photo credit: Bill Jelen / We Report Space

https://twitter.com/wereportspace/status/988448129866502144
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 04/23/2018 09:01 pm
Rocket was moved to land, here is an image from reddit user Space_Coast_Steve:

https://imgur.com/gallery/YILEL1J
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/24/2018 09:52 pm
Quote
@SpaceX TESS booster is still on the stand at Port Canaveral with the fleet minus Hawk (out for maint) nearby. Whatever booster was spotted going west today is anyone's guess.

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/988897660009623552
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/25/2018 03:46 pm
Quote
SpaceX workers were busy this morning at Port Canaveral unloading the recovered Falcon 9 first stage that helped successfully launch NASA’s TESS spacecraft on April 18.

https://twitter.com/astro_donthomas/status/989127487039983616
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 04/25/2018 07:53 pm
Can confirm the rocket is no longer in port.

Quote
SpaceX workers were busy this morning at Port Canaveral unloading the recovered Falcon 9 first stage that helped successfully launch NASA’s TESS spacecraft on April 18.

https://twitter.com/astro_donthomas/status/989127487039983616
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/26/2018 09:45 am
Quote
Visited JFK Space Center today - Saw the TESS booster beeing loaded in to the hangar

https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/8ey9wb/visited_jfk_space_center_today_saw_the_tess/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/27/2018 08:56 pm
For the SpaceX fleet watchers:

Quote
Hmmm
Hawk is in Tampa and some Gal named Tug Rachel appears to be hanging out at the SpaceX docks. We may have to keep an eye on this one. @nextspaceflight @CowboyDanPaasch #SpaceXFleet

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/989959295432306688
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/29/2018 02:53 pm
Quote
Looking for the new #spacex #bargex A Shortfall of Gravitas - keep an eye on Bayou Caroline - Elsbeth III has been there for some time - via Planet labs - is this the new #bargex

https://twitter.com/avron_p/status/990594702167695360
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 04/29/2018 04:35 pm
EIII Is leaving that area, now south of New Orleans heading toward Puerto Rico.  Seems like normal tugboat business, not space tugboating.

I agree we should keep an eye on Bayou Caroline and specifically the spot indicated and all areas within a 3-1/2 minute walk of there as that's where the last 2 ASDSs were configured IIRC.  But I don't think that what he's circled is an ASDS or a barge hoping to become one when it grows up.  The closest building to the circled barge, the building that is just above and to the right of center of that barge is 90m on its longest side.  The circled barge is ~1/3 of that.  That's the size of a basketball court, much smaller than an ASDS.  Unless you maybe jump to the conclusion that the next generation ASDS will use the BFR type landing onto a launch mount, not using legs onto a deck, which seems mildly improbable but not impossible.

Clayjar: Ready for some spring kayaking?  Just like the good old days!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 04/30/2018 12:55 pm
Quote
Looking for the new #spacex #bargex A Shortfall of Gravitas - keep an eye on Bayou Caroline - Elsbeth III has been there for some time - via Planet labs - is this the new #bargex

https://twitter.com/avron_p/status/990594702167695360

That's much too small; and it appears to be adjacent to an abandoned yard.

As far as we're aware, Elsbeth III is now off-hire from SpaceX?

Depending on launch cadence, there may be some chance that Hawk goes to fetch ASOG when it's built.

There might be a counter-argument that a second tug will be needed to tow ASOG around, so that may debut with ASOG - but it should prove possible to get away with just Hawk unless they have to recover a pair of FH side cores at sea.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dorkmo on 04/30/2018 11:41 pm
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/04/russia-launched-a-floating-nuclear-power-plant-this-weekend/

Is it bad that my first thought was "i bet a first stage could land on the roof of that thing".

Maybe one day ASDS will make its own rocket fuel supply.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Michael Baylor on 05/02/2018 07:38 pm
A new barge has appeared at Port Canaveral near the SpaceX dock. It could be ASoG. The current name is CBC Miami.
Source: https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/991759332827123712
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Michael Baylor on 05/02/2018 08:05 pm
Anyone know if the modifications to the previous three droneships were made out of the water? Not sure if they can extend the dock with it in the water.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 05/02/2018 08:31 pm
CBC Miami
Build: 1993
Gross tonnage: 2,349t
Dead weight: 5,300t
LxW: 76.2m (250 ft) × 24.38m (79 ft 11.84 in)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: TorenAltair on 05/02/2018 08:38 pm
Drawings and specs from the designer

http://www.canalbarge.com/resources/barges/cadDrawings.php


Edit: owner Pac/gulf Marine Leasing, LLC
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Helodriver on 05/02/2018 08:41 pm
Anyone know if the modifications to the previous three droneships were made out of the water? Not sure if they can extend the dock with it in the water.

When the MARMAC 303 (Just Read The Instructions) arrived in the Port of LA, the deck extensions had been removed for Panama Canal transit. They were reinstalled while it was afloat in port. No drydock necessary.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 05/02/2018 08:45 pm
Anyone know if the modifications to the previous three droneships were made out of the water? Not sure if they can extend the dock with it in the water.

When the MARMAC 303 (Just Read The Instructions) arrived in the Port of LA, the deck extensions had been removed for Panama Canal transit. They were reinstalled while it was afloat in port. No drydock necessary.

Also, when I dropped in by kayak on the original three in Morgan City (with original-JRtI being de-winged and gear and wings in the process of being installed on OCISLY while JRtI-to-be waited nearby), all three MARMACs were in the water.  Pumping out all the ballast seems to make barges float high enough to easy winging to make ASDSes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 05/02/2018 08:48 pm
https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/environment/2017/06/28/brevard-splashes-down-new-man-made-reef/436044001/

Possibly a little premature on this be ASoG. CBC Miami and her Tug have been building an artificial reef off shore since 2017...

we shall see...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Michael Baylor on 05/02/2018 09:04 pm
https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/environment/2017/06/28/brevard-splashes-down-new-man-made-reef/436044001/

Possibly a little premature on this be ASoG. CBC Miami and her Tug have been building an artificial reef off shore since 2017...

we shall see...
Yeah, that would rule this out for sure. Good catch! The ASoG watch continues...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/04/2018 01:11 pm
Meanwhile, OCISLY is heading put for Bangabandhu-1. Raul's excellent map shows the landing zone (blue markers) will be near where it was for JCSat-16.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1wvgFIPuOmI8da9EIB88tHo9vamo&ll=28.810604969414022%2C-80.11801279029083&z=5
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/14/2018 12:01 pm
Quote
So close yet so far from @PortCanaveral Tug Rachel is forecasting a 3pm EDT eta but the weather may be slowing down return to port. Roughly 90 miles to go.

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/995995937066582018
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 05/14/2018 07:43 pm
Rachel and Go quest still out a little ways, but are making good time. Rachel is circled in black and its last update was 2 hours ago, Go quest circled in red, last updated 40 min. ago. My personal ETA would be anywhere from 7:00pm-9:00pm EDT.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 05/14/2018 08:49 pm
Do we know anything about "SPACEX VIRTUAL TEST"?  It's the red dot a few miles offshore, level with SLC-40, MMSI 102452854.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/14/2018 10:53 pm
Quote
OCISLY has moved unusually far north likely in a storm dodging maneuver. The arrival is now NET 11:30 PM local. That remains very much a NET and this could easily slip past midnight.

https://twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/996157408966721539
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 05/14/2018 11:56 pm
Here is Rachel's position as of an hour ago, definitely northward. (Circled in black)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 09:17 am
Rachel is now about 8 NM out and E-S-E of the port entrance. Appears to be heading in about about 4.5 knots. So arriving within a couple of hours?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pospa on 05/15/2018 09:30 am
Rachel is now about 8 NM out and E-S-E of the port entrance. Appears to be heading in about about 4.5 knots. So arriving within a couple of hours?

Very likely.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 10:24 am
Quote
I spy a #Block5 Banga booster on OCISLY. They will wait for the tanker to exit port and then head in. #SpaceX

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/996335031575556096
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 10:43 am
Rachel and OCISLY are in a holding pattern as large container ship is making it's way out of port.

Edit to add:

Quote
It's going to storm soon. Lightning flashes along the horizon every so often. #Block5 #OCiSLY

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/996340215416590337
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 10:49 am
Quote
The 1st block5 @SpaceX #Falcon9 is arriving now atop #OCISLY droneship into @PortCanaveral. Windy weather, rough seas. Lo res screenshots now . Cred: @ken_kremer

https://twitter.com/ken_kremer/status/996341191309451264
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 05/15/2018 10:58 am
Visible on the jetty park cam!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 10:59 am
Quote
#OCISLY and #Falcon9 just minutes away from entering @PortCanaveral. Backed by lightning and dark clouds. @SpaceX #Bangabandhu

https://twitter.com/marcuscotephoto/status/996343830629756928
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 11:02 am
@murphypak is on her way to port do a live Periscope of the return:

https://www.pscp.tv/w/1mnGeXaOOOvKX (https://www.pscp.tv/w/1mnGeXaOOOvKX)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 11:04 am
Dramatic backdrop:

Quote
Close enough for a phone capture. They are coming in now. I'll post camera shots from home later this morning. #Block5 #SpaceXFleet @SpaceX

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/996344716923940866
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RedSky on 05/15/2018 11:09 am
Having passed twopalms camera...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 11:11 am
Quote
Looking a bit sooty in the first preview...#Block5 #Falcon9 #bangabandhu1

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/996346900109496320
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 05/15/2018 11:17 am
Octagrabber on board!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 11:24 am
Quote
Welcome home #SpaceXFleet 🚀

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/996350251949846528
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 05/15/2018 11:24 am
Coming into view on PTZ, no screenshots aloud on here.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CorvusCorax on 05/15/2018 11:33 am
Coming into view on PTZ, no screenshots aloud on here.

Slightly off topic - would it be allowed to make an actual photo of your desk with your screen happening to show twitter.com where there happens to be a tweet with the latest image from the cam that shall not be named?

and then share that here title: "look, I cleaned my desk"

of course you'd have to clean your desk first

Edit/Lar: no
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 11:34 am
Quote
Another quick preview shot. Lots to share when I upload at home. Going into port for a bit to watch her dock. #Block5 #SpaceX #Bangabandhu1

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/996352324246429696
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 11:46 am
Quote
It takes a fleet to dock a booster 😉
#Block5 #SpaceX

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/996355497287733248
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 12:08 pm
Quote
The crane team has the cap ready to place on the first stage booster. Not sure if they will attempt to lift it off today or if they are giving extra security before more weather events roll in. #Block5 #Falcon9

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/996359921053650944
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pospa on 05/15/2018 12:17 pm
The clock starts ticking.
I'm curious how many hours it will take block 5 from now on till stage being horizontal on transporter.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpapo on 05/15/2018 12:34 pm
The clock starts ticking.
I'm curious how many hours it will take block 5 from now on till stage being horizontal on transporter.
Don't take this attempt as a benchmark.  They will be taking it slow and watching out for problems still.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 12:39 pm
Quote
Looks like a new lift cap being used to lift the Block 5. Has cameras all around the top of it and lights etc. Much faster process too. @murphypak - photographers are there, so we'll RT quality pics later.

https://twitter.com/nasaspaceflight/status/996368740987162624
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pospa on 05/15/2018 12:41 pm
The clock starts ticking.
I'm curious how many hours it will take block 5 from now on till stage being horizontal on transporter.
Don't take this attempt as a benchmark.  They will be taking it slow and watching out for problems still.
Agree, but still ... folding legs 2.0 should be much faster then disassembly of legs 1.0 even for the first time.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Beittil on 05/15/2018 12:42 pm
Maybe this really was that new cap then?

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41018.msg1814712#msg1814712

Edit: Actually. I think it is exactly what I suspected it to be back then :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 12:43 pm
Better shot:

Quote
Looks a bit misaligned #falcon9 #spacex #Bangabandhu1

https://twitter.com/MarekCyzio/status/996369630351515648
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 12:50 pm
Quote
#spacex #falcon9 #bangabandhu1 Welcome home!

https://twitter.com/marekcyzio/status/996366311038087169
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 12:56 pm
Quote
Apparently there is a new lift cap for the Block 5 boosters! When I was at the port last week I believe I got some photos of it.

https://twitter.com/thefavoritist/status/996372690524168192
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 01:03 pm
Quote
#Falcon9 Block 5 returns safely to port aboard #OCISLY after dodging several nearby thunderstorms on this gloomy morning. Here's two edited photos including a slow shutter pan and dolphin passerby. #Bangabandhu1

https://twitter.com/marcuscotephoto/status/996374082638766080
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 01:32 pm
Lift soon?

Quote
The deck is clear of crew. Wondering what will happen next....
Tune in next time...
Nah, we'll wait and see.
#Block5 #Falcon9

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/996381577788698624
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 02:03 pm
Quote
Currently at Port Canaveral capturing this incredible sight. More to come! #illovetigridfins @Teslarati @SpaceX #falcon9 #rocketlanding @PortCanaveral

https://twitter.com/_tomcross_/status/996389457535397889
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pospa on 05/15/2018 02:22 pm
Ha, first time we see inside the new legs - only one skin/shell from the outside, the inner side is open with ribs and clamps visible. Nice.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Silmfeanor on 05/15/2018 02:22 pm
Quote
Currently at Port Canaveral capturing this incredible sight. More to come! #illovetigridfins @Teslarati @SpaceX #falcon9 #rocketlanding @PortCanaveral

https://twitter.com/_tomcross_/status/996389457535397889

In the 2nd picture the octagrabber has loosened its grip, might even be already be lifted. Speed increase for sure!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: su27k on 05/15/2018 02:26 pm
@murphypak is on her way to port do a live Periscope of the return:

https://www.pscp.tv/w/1mnGeXaOOOvKX (https://www.pscp.tv/w/1mnGeXaOOOvKX)

She's got binoculars in front of the camera, the live stream is fairly detailed, you can what the workers are doing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pospa on 05/15/2018 03:02 pm
Its up in the air, less then 3 hrs after arrival to the port. Good pace I gues.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Raul on 05/15/2018 03:08 pm
Quote
Apparently there is a new lift cap for the Block 5 boosters! When I was at the port last week I believe I got some photos of it.
https://twitter.com/thefavoritist/status/996372690524168192
Note, it's really not so new for Block 5 boosters. This type of lifting cap was spotted for the first time 3 weeks ago during TESS block 4 booster recovery...

https://twitter.com/wereportspace/status/988448129866502144
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 03:55 pm
Quote
Booster has been lifted and moved to the pedestal for leg work. Let’s see how this is done. Over on the side is a fairing aboard Go Pursuit covered up with a brown tarp. @Teslarati #spacex #falcon9 #portcanaveral #ocisly

https://twitter.com/_tomcross_/status/996418273515319296
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 04:22 pm
Quote
Notable vehicles: The SpaceX mystery machine. A mobile command center aka office in a trailer. And the booster transporter. Octagrabber has been put away, out of sight, appears to have worked perfectly. @Teslarati #spacex #falcon9 #ocisly

https://twitter.com/_tomcross_/status/996423964082745344
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Mammutti on 05/15/2018 04:29 pm
Does anyone know what is this thing?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 05/15/2018 04:36 pm
My guess would be data and control umbilical. Interesting that it seems to have a hinged heat shield door. I wonder after liftoff if the door closes to protect the umbilical connections on reentry or whether this is a secondary umbilical interface from the one used at launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ugordan on 05/15/2018 04:38 pm
Interesting that it seems to have a hinged heat shield door. I wonder after liftoff if the door closes to protect the umbilical connections on reentry or whether this is a secondary umbilical interface from the one used at launch.

Yes, and that goes back all the way to F9-01.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 05/15/2018 04:40 pm
Cleaning/lubricating the launch/octagrabber hold down? Refurbishment already underway?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 05/15/2018 04:42 pm
Cleaning/lubricating the launch/octagrabber hold down? Refurbishment already underway?

Getting ready to install it on the blocks. See the next picture.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lars-J on 05/15/2018 04:57 pm
My guess would be data and control umbilical. Interesting that it seems to have a hinged heat shield door. I wonder after liftoff if the door closes to protect the umbilical connections on reentry or whether this is a secondary umbilical interface from the one used at launch.

Yep, that design dates back to the first v1.1 and is pretty much unchanged. (other than maybe adding more heat shielding) There is one such port on each side. You can see the pod and hinged door in this picture:
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 05:28 pm
Quote
The #Falcon9 #Block5 #Bangabandhu 1st stage was moved off the "OCISLY" drone ship at approx. 11:20am (ET) today, seen here from @Explorationtwr / @PortCanaveral.

(Bonus: Can you spot the recovered fairing on the deck of one of the @SpaceX boats?)

Pics: me/@WeReportSpace

https://twitter.com/mike_seeley/status/996430141004963840
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 05/15/2018 05:32 pm
The dead-on alignment with the grid-fin shows just how fine an aspect ratio those finlets have now they no longer need the SPAM coating.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Barrie on 05/15/2018 05:57 pm
The dead-on alignment with the grid-fin shows just how fine an aspect ratio those finlets have now they no longer need the SPAM coating.

Didn't get what you meant right away but yeah, the one facing the camera is practically invisible!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 06:06 pm
Quote
The new thermal protection on the interstage, where the Titanium Grid Fins are located appears to be unscathed. Even the logos are in remarkable shape. Here are some before during and after photos. @Teslarati @SpaceX #falcon9 #ocisly #gridfins

https://twitter.com/_tomcross_/status/996449071559774208
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lars-J on 05/15/2018 06:10 pm
Looking at the last two pictures - It is interesting that one (or two?) of the grid fins is much darker, almost black. Perhaps they are experimenting with different anodizing or coatings, or perhaps it was just exposed to more heat?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Craftyatom on 05/15/2018 06:11 pm
Looking at the last two pictures - It is interesting that one (or two?) of the grid fins is much darker, almost black. Perhaps they are experimenting with different anodizing or coatings, or perhaps it was just exposed to more heat?
They're different colors in the pre-launch photo as well - definitely different coatings, though it looks like neither was affected much by re-entry.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/15/2018 06:17 pm
Looking at the last two pictures - It is interesting that one (or two?) of the grid fins is much darker, almost black. Perhaps they are experimenting with different anodizing or coatings, or perhaps it was just exposed to more heat?
They're different colors in the pre-launch photo as well - definitely different coatings, though it looks like neither was affected much by re-entry.

It looks like the left one in the top photo is just raw untreated titanium. What would the coating/anoding on the others be for? Preventing stress corrosion cracking due to chlorides in the marine air?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/15/2018 06:41 pm
Quote
Update 2pm: They’re stringing cables out to stabilize the booster.

https://twitter.com/_tomcross_/status/996454592262168578
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: zhangmdev on 05/15/2018 07:56 pm

It looks like the left one in the top photo is just raw untreated titanium. What would the coating/anoding on the others be for? Preventing stress corrosion cracking due to chlorides in the marine air?

Titanium changes into different colors when exposed to different temperatures. It could be as simple as the dark ones have been used previously.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Torbjorn Larsson, OM on 05/15/2018 08:04 pm
Looking at the last two pictures - It is interesting that one (or two?) of the grid fins is much darker, almost black. Perhaps they are experimenting with different anodizing or coatings, or perhaps it was just exposed to more heat?

To me it looks like raw metal viewed at different reflecting angles.

You don't necessarily need to coat Ti, same as Al, since it will get a more inert TiO - or even here likely, due to heat, partially TiN - coating. The main difference to Al being that both metal and compounds are refractive.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lars-J on 05/15/2018 08:28 pm
Looking at the last two pictures - It is interesting that one (or two?) of the grid fins is much darker, almost black. Perhaps they are experimenting with different anodizing or coatings, or perhaps it was just exposed to more heat?

To me it looks like raw metal viewed at different reflecting angles.

No, look closer at this pre-flight image. Same angle, sun behind the camera. Certainly different. Either reused or a different coating, or both.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Bargemanos on 05/15/2018 08:29 pm
Will the legs still be taken of? Since otherwise it won't fit on the transporter?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dglow on 05/15/2018 08:37 pm
No... surely they didn't engineer new, retractable legs only to require they be removed for transport... say it isn't so!

Wait, transport where: around the Cape/KSC, or across the country?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/15/2018 08:41 pm
For a comparison on the titanium grid fins, here's a closeup photo from Pauline Acalin of the first titanium fins post-flight. They all look like bare untreated metal, only slightly toasted. (Iridium NEXT 11-20, June 2017)

https://mobile.twitter.com/w00ki33/status/880430133538045953


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/15/2018 09:00 pm
No... surely they didn't engineer new, retractable legs only to require they be removed for transport... say it isn't so!

Wait, transport where: around the Cape/KSC, or across the country?

Here's what Tom Mueller said about the new legs a while back:

Quote
When that rocket came back, like yesterday [with NROl-76], it’s smoking, it’s sitting there smoking; we burned a lot of the ablative [material] on it; we have to remove the legs in order to lower it, and reinstall them; it’s not a quick turn. What we want is like an aircraft; you know, it pulls into the airport, the people get off, they fuel it up while the people are getting back on, they do some checks, you know; some inspections, and everything looks good and you go again. And that’s where we want to get to.

The Block 5 Falcon rocket that we’re rolling out later this year is going to have a reusable thermal protection on it; so we don’t burn up the heat shielding on it. And it’s going to have a much better landing legs that just fold up and; just drop the rocket, fold the legs, ship it, fold the legs out when it lands.

https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/6b043z/tom_mueller_interview_speech_skype_call_02_may/dhiygzm/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AncientU on 05/15/2018 10:30 pm
This article has a great cover photo to give size perspective of the grid fins... surprised me.
Now it makes sense that they are the largest titanium forging...
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-falcon-9-block-5-returns-to-port-gallery/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/16/2018 12:48 am
Now over a page of posts that have nothing to do with the ASDS..

C'mon people, back on topic!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/16/2018 12:38 pm
Continuing retrieval of Bangabandhu-1 booster on Block 5 thread:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42465.msg1822118#msg1822118 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42465.msg1822118#msg1822118)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/16/2018 08:14 pm
While we're twiddling our thumbs in the ASDS thread, maybe we should start an office pool picking the date when SpaceX reveals the hitherto-mysterious A Shortfall of Gravitas. I'm guessing we'll get a drone pic from Elon introducing it sometime this year, but that leaves 200+ days of possibility.

The other topic of speculation is where it's being built. A source in bayou country says no one (s)he talks to down there knows anything. So it's status quo ignoramus.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: HVM on 05/16/2018 09:44 pm
Propulsion and station keeping/remote control systems and service are provided by Wärtsilä, maybe even the new ASDS is designed by them?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Asteroza on 05/29/2018 03:45 am
Sorry for deploying the batsignal here, but if any of our marine sleuths can chase after the news that Blue Origin has bought and is currently refitting their landing ship that would be swell...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: noogie on 05/29/2018 03:53 am
It wouldn't be surprising if ASoG is being made capable of participating in BFS hop tests at Boca Chica as well as performing regular Falcon 9 landings at the cape.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gongora on 05/30/2018 06:43 pm
This isn't the party thread.  Trimmed a few posts.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/30/2018 10:32 pm
Sorry for deploying the batsignal here, but if any of our marine sleuths can chase after the news that Blue Origin has bought and is currently refitting their landing ship that would be swell...

I guess you're referring to this:

http://www.ibtimes.com/jeff-bezos-blue-origin-has-bought-landing-ship-new-glenn-rocket-2684724 (http://www.ibtimes.com/jeff-bezos-blue-origin-has-bought-landing-ship-new-glenn-rocket-2684724)

(I know it's not SpaceX ASDS news, but perhaps we can be permitted to digress briefly here while SpaceX ASDS news is sparse.)

There was some speculation a while back in the BO thread about what type of ship they were planning to use, beginning here:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=10685.msg1653469#msg1653469 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=10685.msg1653469#msg1653469)

Not clear to me that anyone nailed down what type of ship it would be, but someone took some measurements off the BO landing simulation video and figured the ship shown was around 200 meters long, in the ballpark of Supramax size.

But one of our members says he believes they'll use a Panamax, which according to him is the largest ship that Port Canaveral will be able to handle. And another member says Panamax ships are selling a deep discount due to the Canal widening project.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38883.msg1765722#msg1765722

So, smart money is probably on a Supramax or Panamax ship. But given how common these are, it could be anywhere, maybe even a foreign shipyard where labor is cheaper for the conversion.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 05/31/2018 09:14 pm
see also this thread

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=45766

I think probably that's the best place for further discussion of the Blue fleet.  Unless they mount deck cannon and start taking out ASDSs or something (kidding)....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vandersons on 06/21/2018 06:45 pm
OCISLY seems to be slanted today.
GO Pursuit just started up its engine.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vandersons on 06/21/2018 07:01 pm
The GO sister ships are leaving port now, not sure if related to any SpaceX activities though.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Semmel on 06/21/2018 11:07 pm
OCISLY seems to be slanted today.
GO Pursuit just started up its engine.

Looked the same yesterday..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vandersons on 06/22/2018 12:43 am

Looked the same yesterday..

Looks like we chose the same table. Or in my case the staff at Fishlips pointed me to it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Semmel on 06/22/2018 11:43 pm

Looked the same yesterday..

Looks like we chose the same table. Or in my case the staff at Fishlips pointed me to it.

I didnt take this picture from a table, I walked over to where the stairs go outside and took it from there. Without a long lens, its kind of pointless to take pictures though.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 07/22/2018 12:32 am
While we're twiddling our thumbs in the ASDS thread, maybe we should start an office pool picking the date when SpaceX reveals the hitherto-mysterious A Shortfall of Gravitas. I'm guessing we'll get a drone pic from Elon introducing it sometime this year, but that leaves 200+ days of possibility.

The other topic of speculation is where it's being built. A source in bayou country says no one (s)he talks to down there knows anything. So it's status quo ignoramus.

The latest SpaceX Fleet article by Michael Baylor reports that plans for A Shortfall of Gravitas have been put on hold due to reduced demand for GTO launches next year (GTO launches are usually the ones that require downrange booster landing on an ASDS vs. RTLS). So that may explain the lack of intel about ASoG construction.

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2018/07/spacex-five-recoveries-less-two-weeks-fleet-activity/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 07/23/2018 03:47 pm
Found a couple of YouTube videos of JRTI out at sea, presumably testing the Thrustmasters - there is what appears to be propeller wash visible, but one of the four pods is only halfway down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67QDA3B0L5M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tz8IPK6B-w

No date of when they were filmed, but it was uploaded last week.

Curiously, they took a telehandler out to sea, but it might just be a decent weight simulator for a landed core.

No sign of a garage for a second OctaGrabber, so presumably the Iridium recovery will use the tried-and-tested jacking option.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Reflectiv on 07/23/2018 04:55 pm
Is it just me or are SpaceX guys not very impressed with the drone flying right into their faces? Especially second video 0:45ish seconds.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 07/24/2018 03:26 am
Found a couple of YouTube videos of JRTI out at sea, presumably testing the Thrustmasters - there is what appears to be propeller wash visible, but one of the four pods is only halfway down.

Looks like a nice day to be out on the water.. :)

I was looking for the beach umbrella and the cooler full of beer but can't see it anywhere.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 07/24/2018 05:10 pm
They've had the telehandler on board before. It usually lives behind one of the blast shields and was used for hold-down rigging before octagrabber.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vanoord on 07/25/2018 09:05 am
No sign of an OctaGrabber garage on JRTI yet - the container at that end needs to be raised up on stands to make space underneath.

Given that JRTI has had a lot of downtime and that no mods have been made, is that an indication that there will not be a second OctaGrabber - I'd guess that if the intention is to make most of the VAFB launches RTLS, then is it worth building one just to use it twice a year?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 07/25/2018 12:05 pm
SpaceX seems to have a consistent R&D approach where a single test article will be developed until the technology is ready for routine use, and only then constructing multiples. There was one JRtI, one Mr. Steven, one fairing fitted for recovery (except now recently they seem to have forked development and be working on two parallel approaches on the two fairing halves), and generally one launch pad being actively developed at a time.  (And one colocated dev team.)  It doesn't seem unusual that there is only one octagrabber; I'd say that just means that R&D on the octagrabber is not yet complete. IIRC lifting the container and building the garage did not take much time, once they decide R&D on the East Coast is complete and it's time to move out of R&D and into operations.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/28/2018 07:30 am
Quote
How’s Shortfall of Gravitas coming?

https://twitter.com/emrekelly/status/1023070460345495554

Quote
Probably ships next summer

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1023073822080098304
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 10/11/2018 07:51 pm
From a slightly different angle
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vaporcobra on 10/11/2018 08:22 pm
Is it just me or are SpaceX guys not very impressed with the drone flying right into their faces? Especially second video 0:45ish seconds.

Oh, it's extraordinarily unwelcome and a major disruption for activities. I know for a fact that SpaceX is training security with drone takedown devices and they will be fully in the right if they choose to use them in cases like this.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 10/11/2018 10:45 pm
Is it just me or are SpaceX guys not very impressed with the drone flying right into their faces? Especially second video 0:45ish seconds.

Oh, it's extraordinarily unwelcome and a major disruption for activities. I know for a fact that SpaceX is training security with drone takedown devices and they will be fully in the right if they choose to use them in cases like this.

Using the gadgets I've seen, there's not much training required to take down a drone these days - just point and shoot.  You don't even need to be all that accurate... killing a fly with a can of bug spray is harder.  The tricky bit is getting enough of the right video of the drone's actions prior to splash-down to satisfy the relevant authorities (and the drone's irate owner) that you were fully in the right.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 10/11/2018 10:51 pm
Is it just me or are SpaceX guys not very impressed with the drone flying right into their faces? Especially second video 0:45ish seconds.

Oh, it's extraordinarily unwelcome and a major disruption for activities. I know for a fact that SpaceX is training security with drone takedown devices and they will be fully in the right if they choose to use them in cases like this.

Using the gadgets I've seen, there's not much training required to take down a drone these days - just point and shoot.  You don't even need to be all that accurate... killing a fly with a can of bug spray is harder.  The tricky bit is getting enough of the right video of the drone's actions prior to splash-down to satisfy the relevant authorities (and the drone's irate owner) that you were fully in the right.
 

Assuming the drone operator was not putting the SpaceX vessel or any personel at risk, and was not operating on SpaceX property, what would the justification be?

There are different expectations of privacy for corporate operations and people sunbathing.
I note that at times interesting photographs have been gotten from very nearby cruise ships.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 10/11/2018 11:08 pm
Assuming the drone operator was not putting the SpaceX vessel or any personel at risk, and was not operating on SpaceX property, what would the justification be?

That's a couple of mighty big assumptions right there!:  A maritime "Restricted Area" typically exists 50m from any commercial vessel anywhere in the world and being within this zone without permission is illegal.  That's usually taken to be horizontal distance, but presumably there's some vertical component also.. and proving that you're outside the zone at all times is kinda difficult.

Distracting one of the workers enough that he trips over or injures him/herself in some way is another scenario I can think of.   There will be many others.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 10/11/2018 11:19 pm
Assuming the drone operator was not putting the SpaceX vessel or any personel at risk, and was not operating on SpaceX property, what would the justification be?

That's a couple of mighty big assumptions right there!:  A maritime "Restricted Area" typically exists 50m from any commercial vessel anywhere in the world and being within this zone without permission is illegal.  That's usually taken to be horizontal distance, but presumably there's some vertical component also.. and proving that you're outside the zone at all times is kinda difficult.
I had not viewed the videos in the thread - if in fact the drone operator was not operating with the authorisation of SpaceX, the above video (operating with the drone clearly above the vessel) is utterly irresponsable.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 10/13/2018 08:17 pm
Not to get too far into UAV laws but in order for the FAA to have jurisdiction over UAVs the FAA had to classify them as aircraft with the responsibilities, rights and protection afforded other aircraft.
 It is illegal to interfere with a UAV in flight as well as the remote pilot in command. One could find themselves in big trouble for doing so. If the actions of the UAV/ remote pilot in command are breaking laws, interfering the UAV and/or its pilot is not the answer.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vaporcobra on 10/14/2018 04:20 am
Assuming the drone operator was not putting the SpaceX vessel or any personel at risk, and was not operating on SpaceX property, what would the justification be?

That's a couple of mighty big assumptions right there!:  A maritime "Restricted Area" typically exists 50m from any commercial vessel anywhere in the world and being within this zone without permission is illegal.  That's usually taken to be horizontal distance, but presumably there's some vertical component also.. and proving that you're outside the zone at all times is kinda difficult.
I had not viewed the videos in the thread - if in fact the drone operator was not operating with the authorisation of SpaceX, the above video (operating with the drone clearly above the vessel) is utterly irresponsable.

Yep. I'm assuming they are being done without permission from SpaceX given just how visibly annoyed/uncomfortable the crew appear to be, but it's sort of ambiguous - Hans Koenigsmann actually included a screenshot in his IAC 2018 keynote, but from a different video by the same pilot.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Reflectiv on 10/14/2018 07:07 pm
Is it just me or are SpaceX guys not very impressed with the drone flying right into their faces? Especially second video 0:45ish seconds.

Oh, it's extraordinarily unwelcome and a major disruption for activities. I know for a fact that SpaceX is training security with drone takedown devices and they will be fully in the right if they choose to use them in cases like this.
Then perhaps, it would be a good idea not to support such activity and post/link those videos here.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: vaporcobra on 10/14/2018 09:32 pm
Is it just me or are SpaceX guys not very impressed with the drone flying right into their faces? Especially second video 0:45ish seconds.

Oh, it's extraordinarily unwelcome and a major disruption for activities. I know for a fact that SpaceX is training security with drone takedown devices and they will be fully in the right if they choose to use them in cases like this.
Then perhaps, it would be a good idea not to support such activity and post/link those videos here.

Depending on how you perceive it, it's actually good to post here (and to write articles focused on them). SpaceX will never know they exist otherwise, unless those annoyed employees are annoyed enough to report this stuff to higher-ups.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 10/14/2018 10:27 pm
Depending on how you perceive it, it's actually good to post here (and to write articles focused on them). SpaceX will never know they exist otherwise, unless those annoyed employees are annoyed enough to report this stuff to higher-ups.

If it's true the footage was used by sales & marketing, then it's quite possible the drone footage was authorised (and perhaps even paid for) by the higher-ups but that nobody bothered to tell the crew on board.  In my experience, that's a regular (and frustrating) occurrence.
 
EDIT:  It is odd though, because professional (ie. authorised and paid for) footage is usually watermarked with the owner's copyright.  This footage isn't.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 10/15/2018 03:27 am
Aircraft proliferating the 0 ft to 400 ft AGL air space on Earth and Mars is more likely than not.

 


 





Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 10/15/2018 03:50 am
Aircraft proliferating the 0 ft to 400 ft AGL air space on Earth and Mars is more likely than not.

In that case, perhaps in the very near future your typical self-respecting gun-toting American will be carryin' one of these babies:  https://www.droneshield.com/dronegun-tactical/

"It's for self-defence, Officer!"  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cppetrie on 11/15/2018 01:01 am
Cross-posting as the article mentions that A Shortfall of Gravitas is slated to arrive at Port Canaveral early next year.

Mr. Steven switching coasts in December:
Florida Today story (https://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/2018/11/14/spacex-unique-fairing-catching-ship-mr-steven-coming-florida-port-canaveral/1998666002/)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 11/15/2018 01:10 am
Cross-posting as the article mentions that A Shortfall of Gravitas is slated to arrive at Port Canaveral early next year.

Mr. Steven switching coasts in December:
Florida Today story (https://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/2018/11/14/spacex-unique-fairing-catching-ship-mr-steven-coming-florida-port-canaveral/1998666002/)

Is it my imagination, or does the article suggest the new ASDS will not be towed?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Semmel on 11/15/2018 05:51 am
I had the same impression but they don't explicitly say so. I would put it in the shelf next to 'bad wording' in either case.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Cheapchips on 11/15/2018 03:30 pm

Aren't the current droneships only towed due to regulation, rather than a technical limitation?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 11/15/2018 04:02 pm

Aren't the current droneships only towed due to regulation, rather than a technical limitation?
No, they are not capable of reaching their deployment location on their own.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 11/15/2018 09:44 pm

Aren't the current droneships only towed due to regulation, rather than a technical limitation?
No, they are not capable of reaching their deployment location on their own.

FWIW, the ABS Barge Rules indicate that thrusters and similar propulsion systems are permitted only for 'short field moves' (consisting of moving the unit from one work location to another location within the same area of operation, that takes no longer than 12 hours and is conducted in daylight hours).

To do anything more than the above would require re-classification (as a "vessel" of some kind) and would require significant modification to meet all of the additional requirements for propulsion, navigation and accommodation.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: biosehnsucht on 11/15/2018 11:27 pm

Aren't the current droneships only towed due to regulation, rather than a technical limitation?
No, they are not capable of reaching their deployment location on their own.

Rules & regulations aside, I'm sure if you just told them to hold position at their destination, and they didn't run out of fuel getting there (their position holding thrusters won't be the most efficient means of transport, I'm sure), or run into any other vessels or any land masses (as they don't have any kind of collision avoidance or map based navigation I'm sure), they'd get there eventually. So technically it should be possible, but only within fuel range (and in theory could be refueled at sea, but at that point why not just tow them anyways), and when nothing gets between them and their destination.

Obviously, with no way to avoid a collision towing them to at least the approximate location is the obvious course of action, never mind whether they would have had enough fuel to make it on their own, or be legal, etc.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: aero on 11/16/2018 03:35 pm
Aren't the drone ships just converted barges? Barges with station holding gear bolted on to hold it against winds and currents. That doesn't include a wheel and rudder for steering or a powertrain for propulsion.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 11/16/2018 03:52 pm
Aren't the drone ships just converted barges? Barges with station holding gear bolted on to hold it against winds and currents. That doesn't include a wheel and rudder for steering or a powertrain for propulsion.
You don't actually need a wheel or rudder.
And if you can stationkeep in 8 knots, you can move at 8 knots (not against a current).

With 10000 ton capacity or so, there is plenty of fuel. However, for regulatory and other reasons explained upthread, having them actually self-ferry would be silly.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 11/18/2018 10:05 pm
Yes, there is no technical reason they can't self-ferry.. but many reasons they don't.  Safety of navigation for other vessels and safety of the environment are two biggies.

Taken to the extreme, you might be wondering why modern cargo ships cannot be fully automated?  After all, without anyone on board (a) there'd be no crew to pay, (b) no accommodation space needed so extra cargo could be loaded and (c) no expensive and dangerous rescues if the ship gets caught in a storm - all meaning much higher efficiency and better returns for the operators.  Sounds great, yes??  And many people (the Port of Singapore Authority to name one in this region) seriously considered doing this as far back as the 1990's - long before development of the self-driving tech we have now.  Interestingly, with so much money at stake if it worked, this application was one of the reasons AIS was developed in the first place... but the idea died the second they read the COLREGs and considered the implications.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 11/18/2018 10:24 pm
Yes, there is no technical reason they can't self-ferry.. but many reasons they don't.  Safety of navigation for other vessels and safety of the environment are two biggies.

Taken to the extreme, you might be wondering why modern cargo ships cannot be fully automated?  After all, without anyone on board....

Rolls Royce and several other companies are working on remotely-sailed (drone) cargo ships, and the 79.5m autonmous container feeder YARA Birkeland is being built,  so....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 11/18/2018 11:44 pm
Yes, there is no technical reason they can't self-ferry.. but many reasons they don't.  Safety of navigation for other vessels and safety of the environment are two biggies.

Taken to the extreme, you might be wondering why modern cargo ships cannot be fully automated?  After all, without anyone on board....

Rolls Royce and several other companies are working on remotely-sailed (drone) cargo ships, and the 79.5m autonmous container feeder YARA Birkeland is being built,  so....

..with a max speed of 10kts (most similar vessels do +20kts) and a dedicated route (like a big ferry) for the reasons I mentioned above, we'll see how far they can successfully push the envelope, won't we??  :)


EDIT:  As for the others, don't hold your breath - you'll suffocate.  Elon will be landing on Mars long before those concepts ever see the water.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 11/19/2018 01:16 am
..., and the 79.5m autonmous container feeder YARA Birkeland is being built,  so....
Hasn't it been "being built" for quite a while now?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Llian Rhydderch on 12/27/2018 05:38 pm
..., and the 79.5m autonmous container feeder YARA Birkeland is being built,  so....
Hasn't it been "being built" for quite a while now?

It seems to have been ordered in 2017, but no record of its keel being laid or launching (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Yara_Birkeland) since then.  Just renders and a video made by the company, along with execs making statements. 

Seems somewhat like a number of the rocket and in-space concepts we deal with all the time on NSF.   ;)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nydoc on 12/27/2018 09:20 pm
There is a barge in these pictures.

https://twitter.com/LilyRubenstein/status/1078120710525018112

(credit to Twitter user @LilyRubenstein )
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Tommyboy on 12/27/2018 09:45 pm
There is a barge in these pictures.

https://twitter.com/LilyRubenstein/status/1078120710525018112

(credit to Twitter user @LilyRubenstein )
And those orange supports on the barge are exactly the same as under the fairings on shore. Seems like a SpaceX barge to me.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Cowboy Dan on 12/27/2018 10:20 pm
Think the barge is being used in cahoots with the fairing drop tests out of Port LA. Tug Sir Richard pulls the fairing loaded barge to drop site (Catalina Island-ish), from which a commercial Blackhawk helicopter latches to fairing. Bird climbs to height while SpX ship Mr Steven maneuvers into place.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nydoc on 12/27/2018 10:33 pm
Think the barge is being used in cahoots with the fairing drop tests out of Port LA. Tug Sir Richard pulls the fairing loaded barge to drop site (Catalina Island-ish), from which a commercial Blackhawk helicopter latches to fairing. Bird climbs to height while SpX ship Mr Steven maneuvers into place.
Would this be the vessel of which Elon hinted as "A Shortfall of Gravitas" (maybe re-purposed for fairing use) or is that a different vessel?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 12/28/2018 01:20 am
Would this be the vessel of which Elon hinted as "A Shortfall of Gravitas" (maybe re-purposed for fairing use) or is that a different vessel?

No.  The ASDS beam is 170ft.  Mr Steven is 34ft.  That barge is closer to Mr Steven than an ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 12/28/2018 01:41 pm
Would this be the vessel of which Elon hinted as "A Shortfall of Gravitas" (maybe re-purposed for fairing use) or is that a different vessel?

No.  The ASDS beam is 170ft.  Mr Steven is 34ft.  That barge is closer to Mr Steven than an ASDS.
The Marmac 300 series has a 100' beam, the additional width in their ASDS role is from the 'wings' welded to the sides. This barge is still too small to be a pre-refit ASDS of the same pattern, unless SpaceX are confidant enough of landing CEP to downsize and also have some reason not to continue to use their already converted barges.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 12/28/2018 02:20 pm
The Marmac 300 series has a 100' beam, the additional width in their ASDS role is from the 'wings' welded to the sides. This barge is still too small to be a pre-refit ASDS of the same pattern, unless SpaceX are confidant enough of landing CEP to downsize and also have some reason not to continue to use their already converted barges.

Thanks!  I'm a little surprised I'd never picked up that point before but maybe I got here late.

Seen clearly below:
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 01/01/2019 02:00 pm
The Marmac 300 series has a 100' beam, the additional width in their ASDS role is from the 'wings' welded to the sides. This barge is still too small to be a pre-refit ASDS of the same pattern, unless SpaceX are confidant enough of landing CEP to downsize and also have some reason not to continue to use their already converted barges.

Thanks!  I'm a little surprised I'd never picked up that point before but maybe I got here late.

Seen clearly below:

Without presuming when you arrived, the wings were quite evident when Marmac 300 (JRTI I) was retired and Marmac 303 (JRTI II) took over. The wings were removed from 300 and placed on 303 and then carried through the (un-expanded) Panama Canal to the west coast. The trip and the conversion from Marmac 303 to JRTI II took many weeks and pages on the ASDS thread. The conversion was covered quite well by Helodriver. It all was followed with bated breath and quite hard to miss.

Edit - Wings on deck in Panama Canal
Edit - A Helodriver update
Edit - Another Helodriver update
Edit - And another Helodriver update
Edit - A fourth Helodriver update
Edit - A final Helodriver update
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Llian Rhydderch on 02/05/2019 01:45 am
There has been quite a lot of previous discussion on this thread that say robotic vessels, whether telerobotic or autonmous, for ships on the seas moving from Port A to Location B to Port C are not possible.

I just tended to believe all the more marine-experienced commentators, figuring they knew more than me.

So was quite surprised to see this today:  Sea Hunter USV Reaches New Autonomy Milestone (https://www.navalnews.com/news/2019/02/sea-hunter-usv-reaches-new-autonomy-milestone/), where a ship sailed from San Diego to Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, and back with no humans on board.

Does this have implications for the so-called "autonomous" droneships that SpaceX has advanced?  or for their next-generation launch mount for their next-gen rocket?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RonM on 02/05/2019 03:40 am
There has been quite a lot of previous discussion on this thread that say robotic vessels, whether telerobotic or autonmous, for ships on the seas moving from Port A to Location B to Port C are not possible.

I just tended to believe all the more marine-experienced commentators, figuring they knew more than me.

So was quite surprised to see this today:  Sea Hunter USV Reaches New Autonomy Milestone (https://www.navalnews.com/news/2019/02/sea-hunter-usv-reaches-new-autonomy-milestone/), where a ship sailed from San Diego to Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, and back with no humans on board.

Does this have implications for the so-called "autonomous" droneships that SpaceX has advanced?  or for their next-generation launch mount for their next-gen rocket?

The Sea Hunter is a US Navy test vessel. Legal issues for drone ships are based on private/commercial vessels. Several companies are working on autonomous freighters and regulations will one day have to keep up.

SpaceX uses barges that station keep, so that'a not an issue. Blue Origin will use a converted freighter, but it will be crewed except for landing operations. Probably a regulation loophole for that.

You're going to want crew to check out a landed booster and secure it if automated systems fail. No need for a fully autonomous landing pad ship.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/05/2019 04:25 am
There has been quite a lot of previous discussion on this thread that say robotic vessels, whether telerobotic or autonmous, for ships on the seas moving from Port A to Location B to Port C are not possible.

Given that the technology to achieve it has been around for almost 2 decades now, I don't think anyone suggested this was "not possible".. not practical from a commercial/legal standpoint is more likely and that's something I expect the US Navy (of all people) need not worry about.  Whether the regulations will shift on this in future is anyone's guess, but AFAIK the IMO have no intention of changing SOLAS V (the problem clause) anytime soon.

SpaceX get around SOLAS V by station-keeping within what is effectively a fenced-off area.  For Blue Origin there are regulations now around landing helicopters aboard vessels at sea that could possibly be modified to allow it to be crewed whilst rockets boosters are landing, should they want to go down that route.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/05/2019 02:21 pm
For Blue Origin there are regulations now around landing helicopters aboard vessels at sea that could possibly be modified to allow it to be crewed whilst rockets boosters are landing, should they want to go down that route.
 

to be uncrewed I think you mean?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/06/2019 10:02 pm
For Blue Origin there are regulations now around landing helicopters aboard vessels at sea that could possibly be modified to allow it to be crewed whilst rockets boosters are landing, should they want to go down that route.
 

to be uncrewed I think you mean?

No.. crewed.  I asked a few folks I know around here and it seems the SOLAS II Regulation 18 requirements for Helicopter Landing Operations could potentially be tweaked to allow it.  Landing a chopper (or even just hover/winching operations) on a merchant ship isn't as trivial as many think.    For those not familiar with what needs to happen aboard both before and after, here's a primer: 

https://safety4sea.com/cm-helicopter-operations-at-sea-what-you-should-know/


EDIT:  I recognise this is all OT for a SpaceX thread, but FWIW I was aboard a cruise ship only a couple of weeks ago where someone had a heart attack and needed to be air-lifted to hospital.  10 minutes before the chopper arrived the top 4 levels of the ship (Deck 10 upwards) were evacuated and fire crews, fully kitted out with BA and pressurised fire hoses on the ready.  None of us lowly passengers got to so much as see the chopper at any point in it's approach or patient pick-up.  We were an hour late to the next port.  Contrary to what you see on the movies, this helo business is a big deal.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/07/2019 02:31 am
SpaceX can do what they do because their drone ship is uncrewed and stationary.

It sounds like you are saying that any future ship that wants to move, whoever it may belong to MIGHT have an issue then? Because ships have to be crewed to move, but apparently have to be safed (to the point of crew having nowhere to go?) for landings that are analogous to helicopter operations. ... ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/07/2019 03:48 am
SpaceX can do what they do because their drone ship is uncrewed and stationary.

It sounds like you are saying that any future ship that wants to move, whoever it may belong to MIGHT have an issue then? Because ships have to be crewed to move, but apparently have to be safed (to the point of crew having nowhere to go?) for landings that are analogous to helicopter operations. ... ?

Lar, all I'm saying is that, although, for very valid safety reasons, SpaceX elected to remove all crew from the ASDS prior to booster landing, now, armed with sufficient real-life data regarding the impact of a mostly-empty booster on a vessel in the open ocean sufficient to satisfy the relevant authorities, there is scope, along the lines of helicopter operations, to possibly permit a future booster-landing ship (eg. like the BO one) to carry crew.

It's a risk equation.  If someone wishes to keep crew on a ship with a rocket in-bound they would first need to  identify and quantify the risks involved and the means in place to mitigate against them. SpaceX's $$$ and hard work hover-slamming a few stages into various ASDS's with relatively minor damage in every case may provide BO with some small hope they might be allowed to keep crew aboard their future booster-landing ship.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jcc on 02/07/2019 11:38 pm
Fully autonomous surface ships exist: (US Navy anti sub hunter)

https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/us-navys-anti-submarine-drone-ship-sailed-autonomously-from-san-diego-to-hawaii-and-back/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 02/08/2019 12:27 am
Fully autonomous surface ships exist: (US Navy anti sub hunter)

https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/us-navys-anti-submarine-drone-ship-sailed-autonomously-from-san-diego-to-hawaii-and-back/

As we discussed, these are not subject to civilian maritime regs. Supposedly any civilian ship under way (not just station keeping) has to be manned.

Blue says they want to not be manned. CameronD (I think)  is arguing that Blue (or SpaceX in future if they wanted to use moving vessels) CAN be manned and safe. 

Sorry I dragged us in the weeds a bit.



Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 02/11/2019 10:06 pm
Fully autonomous surface ships exist: (US Navy anti sub hunter)

https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/us-navys-anti-submarine-drone-ship-sailed-autonomously-from-san-diego-to-hawaii-and-back/

As we discussed, these are not subject to civilian maritime regs. Supposedly any civilian ship under way (not just station keeping) has to be manned.

Blue says they want to not be manned. CameronD (I think)  is arguing that Blue (or SpaceX in future if they wanted to use moving vessels) CAN be manned and safe. 

Sorry I dragged us in the weeds a bit.
Sea Launch's (nka S7 Space) Odyssey is required by governing agencies to be unmanned before, during and after launch operations and they have experienced a failed launch which heavily damaged the floating platform and required emergency dewatering to keep afloat. Deepwater horizon disaster is what Odessey could have suffered with crew onboard during the failure.

Let's I guess leave this at that until posters beat the dead horse again several pages down from now.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/11/2019 10:16 pm
Fully autonomous surface ships exist: (US Navy anti sub hunter)

https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/us-navys-anti-submarine-drone-ship-sailed-autonomously-from-san-diego-to-hawaii-and-back/

As we discussed, these are not subject to civilian maritime regs. Supposedly any civilian ship under way (not just station keeping) has to be manned.

Blue says they want to not be manned. CameronD (I think)  is arguing that Blue (or SpaceX in future if they wanted to use moving vessels) CAN be manned and safe. 

Sorry I dragged us in the weeds a bit.
Sea Launch's (nka S7 Space) Odyssey is required by governing agencies to be unmanned before, during and after launch operations and they have experienced a failed launch which heavily damaged the floating platform and required emergency dewatering to keep afloat. Deepwater horizon disaster is what Odessey could have suffered with crew onboard during the failure.

For the record, neither I nor (I think) anyone else here was referring to launch operations from a floating platform.  That's a scenario entirely different to both the subject of recent discussion and SpaceX's TRL.

Let's I guess leave this at that until posters beat the dead horse again several pages down from now.

Good idea. .. although it would be nice to think folks weren't so predictable.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 04/28/2019 03:06 am
OCISLY has received a fresh coat of paint as of today:

https://twitter.com/D_Bigg_Rigg/status/1122233974066225152
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ZachS09 on 04/28/2019 03:16 am
That's always a great sight to see: the SpaceX logo on the landing zones or the drone ship decks getting repainted.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/28/2019 11:45 pm
That's always a great sight to see: the SpaceX logo on the landing zones or the drone ship decks getting repainted.

Actaully, I'm looking forward to the day they are using it so often they never get time to repaint the deck. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 04/29/2019 12:46 am
That's always a great sight to see: the SpaceX logo on the landing zones or the drone ship decks getting repainted.

Actaully, I'm looking forward to the day they are using it so often they never get time to repaint the deck. :)

I'm not, because that level of Falcon launch traffic means Starship wasn't successful.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 04/29/2019 02:06 pm
That's always a great sight to see: the SpaceX logo on the landing zones or the drone ship decks getting repainted.

Actaully, I'm looking forward to the day they are using it so often they never get time to repaint the deck. :)

I'm not, because that level of Falcon launch traffic means Starship wasn't successful.
...didn't develop in the unrealistically fast perfect timeline that Elon hopes for, allowing Falcon to be a workhorse launcher for a while before transitioning to Starship.

Yeah, I think there is a reasonable window in here where F9 can really prove its worth as a workhorse launcher while Starlink cuts through teething issues, that isn't proof of Starship failing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: marsbase on 04/29/2019 02:10 pm
Yeah, I think there is a reasonable window in here where F9 can really prove its worth as a workhorse launcher while Starlink cuts through teething issues, that isn't proof of Starship failing.
I seem to remember Elon saying the F9 had a life expectancy of another 5 years.  That was about a year ago.  Seems just about on schedule.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 05/04/2019 06:00 am
Ummm... An ASDS issue plays a large role in a launch scrub, and it's not even mentioned on the ASDS thread?
Y'all are slipping. :P

Seriously though, has anyone seen any news on what happened to OCISLY that caused the problem?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ZChris13 on 05/04/2019 06:06 am
Ummm... An ASDS issue plays a large role in a launch scrub, and it's not even mentioned on the ASDS thread?
Y'all are slipping. :P

Seriously though, has anyone seen any news on what happened to OCISLY that caused the problem?
they pulled a big generator out of OCISLY, and word has been "electric"
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 05/04/2019 09:29 am
That's always a great sight to see: the SpaceX logo on the landing zones or the drone ship decks getting repainted.

Actaully, I'm looking forward to the day they are using it so often they never get time to repaint the deck. :)

I'm not, because that level of Falcon launch traffic means Starship wasn't successful.

Or things have changed again, and SS is landing on it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/18/2019 04:06 pm
Stephen Clark reporting on Twitter that OCISLY is now heading (far) downrange to catch the FH center core.

https://twitter.com/StephenClark1/status/1140996040876863488
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 06/18/2019 04:12 pm
SFN reporting that OCISLY is now heading (far) downrange to catch the FH center core.

figuring the reason behind it is because they want to give S2 and the payloads as much fuel margin as possible. The only thing I am puzzled by is there is no paperwork for them to go way out for the landing....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 06/18/2019 04:19 pm
SFN reporting that OCISLY is now heading (far) downrange to catch the FH center core.

figuring the reason behind it is because they want to give S2 and the payloads as much fuel margin as possible. The only thing I am puzzled by is there is no paperwork for them to go way out for the landing....

The FCC license for the Arabsat launch is valid through September 7th and does not specify a mission name or number of missions. Maybe they are still using that?

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=89348&RequestTimeout=1000
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/18/2019 04:31 pm
SFN reporting that OCISLY is now heading (far) downrange to catch the FH center core.

figuring the reason behind it is because they want to give S2 and the payloads as much fuel margin as possible. The only thing I am puzzled by is there is no paperwork for them to go way out for the landing....

The FCC license for the Arabsat launch is valid through September 7th and does not specify a mission name or number of missions. Maybe they are still using that?

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=89348&RequestTimeout=1000

That application is specifically for a Falcon 9 launch, so I doubt it. They did file one for a Falcon Heavy launch with the near-shore landing coordinates; maybe they made a last-minute decision (after the March 27 filing) to change the flight profile and just haven't updated the ASDS coordinates on the application yet.

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=91026&RequestTimeout=1000

We've seen cases in the past where coordinates were just plain wrong (e.g. in cut and paste jobs from previous applications), so those details may not matter that much to the FCC.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 06/18/2019 04:59 pm
Presumably the FCC would care more about the reverse direction (a far away landing being moved close to shore).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/18/2019 09:13 pm
Here are the updated ASDS coordinates, courtesy of gongora in the mission updates thread.

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=93066&RequestTimeout=1000

This is reportedly the same/similar ASDS location as for Arabsat, though I haven't checked.

Quote
North  27  56  52   West  68  0  55   Autonomous Drone Ship
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Orbiter on 06/18/2019 09:35 pm
It's greater than 300km further east, so a good distance further downrange.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/18/2019 10:48 pm
Thanks to RocketLover0119 for bringing this tweet to our attention in the mission updates thread.

F9 booster going for the world record long jump. Will be extra crispy, too!

https://twitter.com/IanPineapple/status/1141097712705769472
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Barley on 06/20/2019 03:37 pm
Do we have any idea how much cross/up/down range capability there is for landing after various launch profiles?

Logically it would seem that a launch that returns to the launch site could do an equally gentle (or better) landing over a fairly wide swath of the Atlantic, although it's hard to think of a compelling reason to do so. A maximum performance launch would probably have land in a fairly small area.  Somewhere in the middle there is room to choose the landing area and they might have enough range to able to choose the landing zone to avoid weather.  Possibly trading off the risk of reentry heating for risk of losing the stage after the landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 06/20/2019 10:11 pm
Do we have any idea how much cross/up/down range capability there is for landing after various launch profiles?

Logically it would seem that a launch that returns to the launch site could do an equally gentle (or better) landing over a fairly wide swath of the Atlantic, although it's hard to think of a compelling reason to do so. A maximum performance launch would probably have land in a fairly small area.  Somewhere in the middle there is room to choose the landing area and they might have enough range to able to choose the landing zone to avoid weather.  Possibly trading off the risk of reentry heating for risk of losing the stage after the landing.
I don't think they've gotten to that level of sophistication yet but I could see them doing so eventually.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/23/2019 02:21 pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1142736758662213634
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/23/2019 06:47 pm
OCISLY has company.

https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1142835422659305473
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/24/2019 11:53 pm

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1143287719075950593


[OCISLY shudders at the thought...not another hole-punch, please!]
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/25/2019 08:43 am
No joy for OCISLY. Booster missed.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 06/25/2019 10:22 am
Pretty sure booster missing gives OCISLY more joy than having it impact the deck hard.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 06/25/2019 05:45 pm
1) i think we've seen the edge of the envelope of what a FH can do with 2 boosters doing RTLS.
2) The FH Core can easily survive with a few more seconds of fuel and oxidizer.
3) For payloads of this size and complexity it seems they need to use 3 ASDS landings.

Regarding the ASDS fleet, I'll make a pitch that a 3rd ASDS be built.  But that instead of being a big flat ugly barge that it be a self propelled vessel that can return a booster to the port quicker.

This could be the preferred vessel on single stick landings and would be very helpful when its a far out FH core landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Syrinx on 06/25/2019 06:44 pm
Regarding 2- or 3-core drone ship landings.

Would it make sense to have one very long drone ship?  Like modern cruise ship length (300+ meters).

* Minimize on-board equipment (shared).
* Maximize landing deck surface area.
* Minimize wave-induced deck height oscillations.

Center core may be able to boost back to join the side cores?  Or side cores can "boost forward"?  Or a compromise somewhere in the middle.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 06/25/2019 07:11 pm
Regarding 2- or 3-core drone ship landings.

Would it make sense to have one very long drone ship?  Like modern cruise ship length (300+ meters).

* Minimize on-board equipment (shared).
* Maximize landing deck surface area.
* Minimize wave-induced deck height oscillations.

Center core may be able to boost back to join the side cores?  Or side cores can "boost forward"?  Or a compromise somewhere in the middle.
Two boosters on one droneship might work well, but having all 3 boosters return to the same point (lacking crossfeed which probably never happens) seems like a big payload hit
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 06/25/2019 07:16 pm
Regarding 2- or 3-core drone ship landings.

Would it make sense to have one very long drone ship?  Like modern cruise ship length (300+ meters).

* Minimize on-board equipment (shared).
* Maximize landing deck surface area.
* Minimize wave-induced deck height oscillations.

Center core may be able to boost back to join the side cores?  Or side cores can "boost forward"?  Or a compromise somewhere in the middle.
Two boosters on one droneship might work well, but having all 3 boosters return to the same point (lacking crossfeed which probably never happens) seems like a big payload hit

Crossfeed depletes the sides sooner and pushes the center faster, which makes it even less likely they would ever return to the same point. But with crossfeed the utility of a single ASDS increases, since side booster RTLS gets easier, and payload with the single ASDS landing increases. That landing might approach 2,000 km downrange.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 06/25/2019 07:21 pm
1) i think we've seen the edge of the envelope of what a FH can do with 2 boosters doing RTLS.
2) The FH Core can easily survive with a few more seconds of fuel and oxidizer.
3) For payloads of this size and complexity it seems they need to use 3 ASDS landings.

Regarding the ASDS fleet, I'll make a pitch that a 3rd ASDS be built.  But that instead of being a big flat ugly barge that it be a self propelled vessel that can return a booster to the port quicker.

This could be the preferred vessel on single stick landings and would be very helpful when its a far out FH core landing.

There's already another ASDS that was supposed to be in the works, "A Shortfall of Gravitas"

Assuming JRTI isn't needed at Vandy, it could be sent to the Cape for the next Heavy launch.

There's 3.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mme on 06/25/2019 07:46 pm
1) i think we've seen the edge of the envelope of what a FH can do with 2 boosters doing RTLS.
2) The FH Core can easily survive with a few more seconds of fuel and oxidizer.
3) For payloads of this size and complexity it seems they need to use 3 ASDS landings.

Regarding the ASDS fleet, I'll make a pitch that a 3rd ASDS be built.  But that instead of being a big flat ugly barge that it be a self propelled vessel that can return a booster to the port quicker.

This could be the preferred vessel on single stick landings and would be very helpful when its a far out FH core landing.
How many times have we thought SpaceX found the edge of their envelope? I think they'll be looking at ways this "could have" worked before they give up and go to 3 ASDSes downrange.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 06/25/2019 09:21 pm
2000km is so far away they need more ASDS vessels or faster ones.... unless cadence drops back down to once a month or something....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/25/2019 10:13 pm
With every plate that gets welded onto Starship, the desire to improve the Fx family diminishes a little bit more...

I think what we're seeing now is the ends of dev efforts that are 2 years old.  I don't think they're starting new ones, they've moved on.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ZachS09 on 06/25/2019 10:19 pm
1) i think we've seen the edge of the envelope of what a FH can do with 2 boosters doing RTLS.
2) The FH Core can easily survive with a few more seconds of fuel and oxidizer.
3) For payloads of this size and complexity it seems they need to use 3 ASDS landings.

Regarding the ASDS fleet, I'll make a pitch that a 3rd ASDS be built.  But that instead of being a big flat ugly barge that it be a self propelled vessel that can return a booster to the port quicker.

This could be the preferred vessel on single stick landings and would be very helpful when its a far out FH core landing.
How many times have we thought SpaceX found the edge of their envelope? I think they'll be looking at ways this "could have" worked before they give up and go to 3 ASDSes downrange.

I remember one of them was the Eutelsat/ABS F2 mission in June 2016. It ran out of oxidizer just before touchdown, and I think Elon tweeted something about pushing to the limit on that flight.

To see what I mean, check out my post comparing the two missions in the Discussion Thread:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=30544.msg1960075#msg1960075
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 06/26/2019 04:25 am
With every plate that gets welded onto Starship, the desire to improve the Fx family diminishes a little bit more...

I think what we're seeing now is the ends of dev efforts that are 2 years old.  I don't think they're starting new ones, they've moved on.
They improved the octograbber and made a new catching net for Ms. Tree. It'll be a few years before they move everything to Starship, and improving reuse makes it easier for SpaceX to retire most of the Falcon 9/H manufacturing line.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/26/2019 04:37 am
With every plate that gets welded onto Starship, the desire to improve the Fx family diminishes a little bit more...

I think what we're seeing now is the ends of dev efforts that are 2 years old.  I don't think they're starting new ones, they've moved on.
They improved the octograbber and made a new catching net for Ms. Tree. It'll be a few years before they move everything to Starship, and improving reuse makes it easier for SpaceX to retire most of the Falcon 9/H manufacturing line.
Exactly - I am sure that making the octagrabber compatible with FH is not something that just occurred to them last month...  and the fairing catching project is how old (that we know of)?

But new things, I don't think we'll see those. SpaceX always moved forward much faster than we expected, and had zero attachment to old stuff even when the old stuff was working just fine.

They're about to abandon (read: commit to obsolescence) the most successful launch system out there in order to build a new one.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Coastal Ron on 06/26/2019 04:38 am
With every plate that gets welded onto Starship, the desire to improve the Fx family diminishes a little bit more...

I think what we're seeing now is the ends of dev efforts that are 2 years old.  I don't think they're starting new ones, they've moved on.
They improved the octograbber and made a new catching net for Ms. Tree. It'll be a few years before they move everything to Starship, and improving reuse makes it easier for SpaceX to retire most of the Falcon 9/H manufacturing line.

I think the distinction is between tweaking the design for new capabilities vs tweaking the design for operational lifespan.

For instance, it would make no sense to iterate the landing legs again if the goal was to make them lighter weight so that more payload could be carried. But it would make sense to iterate the landing leg design if it improves turnaround time and/or reduces the cost of reusing a stage. The ROI would have to be near-term though, since SpaceX wants to be done with Falcon 9 in just a few years.

So from that standpoint the octograbber and the fairing catcher make sense since they improve turnaround time and/or reduces the cost of reuse.

Based on that I would not expect SpaceX to invest in a cross-feed system for Falcon Heavy, but I wouldn't be surprised if they invested in fixing the heat shield issue that contributed to the loss of the center core.

My $0.02
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/26/2019 04:39 am
With every plate that gets welded onto Starship, the desire to improve the Fx family diminishes a little bit more...

I think what we're seeing now is the ends of dev efforts that are 2 years old.  I don't think they're starting new ones, they've moved on.
They improved the octograbber and made a new catching net for Ms. Tree. It'll be a few years before they move everything to Starship, and improving reuse makes it easier for SpaceX to retire most of the Falcon 9/H manufacturing line.

I think the distinction is between tweaking the design for new capabilities vs tweaking the design for operational lifespan.

For instance, it would make no sense to iterate the landing legs again if the goal was to make them lighter weight so that more payload could be carried. But it would make sense to iterate the landing leg design if it improves turnaround time and/or reduces the cost of reusing a stage. The ROI would have to be near-term though, since SpaceX wants to be done with Falcon 9 in just a few years.

So from that standpoint the octograbber and the fairing catcher make sense since they improve turnaround time and/or reduces the cost of reuse.

Based on that I would not expect SpaceX to invest in a cross-feed system for Falcon Heavy, but I wouldn't be surprised if they invested in fixing the heat shield issue that contributed to the loss of the center core.

My $0.02
Yup.  That's a good razor.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 06/26/2019 05:00 am
I would bet money the Falcon 9’s last flight won’t be until 2028 or later. It’s got another good decade.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 06/26/2019 05:09 am
I would bet money the Falcon 9’s last flight won’t be until 2028 or later. It’s got another good decade.

You are thinking of Dragon to the ISS? Quite possible.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 06/26/2019 05:34 am
Regarding the FH side cores, they could get some extra performance via landing those downrange on ASDS, but, we've yet to see Shortfall of Gravitas, so they have one ASDS, OCICELY, at the cape.

This makes me wonder - do they actually need an ASDS for each side core? Given the landing accuracy demonstrated, could they land both on the same ASDS, staggered in time like the RTLS? My guess is no, because the blast from the second one might knock the first one over, but I don't know.

Or, how about lashing a flat-topped barge to the stern of Ocisely for a second landing pad? As long as Ocisely can station-keep with the barge attached, it could be feasible. It's far, far cheaper than a whole new ASDS, and might be an option in the rare cases where side core ASDS recovery an expending the center core is needed.

Could this be a possible explanation why we've seen nothing of Shortfall of Gravitas?


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: dglow on 06/26/2019 01:17 pm
I would bet money the Falcon 9’s last flight won’t be until 2028 or later. It’s got another good decade.

You are thinking of Dragon to the ISS? Quite possible.

Or national security launches. Agency designs payload for Falcon, completion of that payload slips, etc.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 06/26/2019 01:45 pm
I would bet money the Falcon 9’s last flight won’t be until 2028 or later. It’s got another good decade.

You are thinking of Dragon to the ISS? Quite possible.

Or national security launches. Agency designs payload for Falcon, completion of that payload slips, etc.

You may underestimate the Airforce. They will certify and use Starship in less than 10 years. Also NASA will accept Starship for crew in that timeframe, at least for interplanetary travel. But I think not Starship docking at the ISS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 06/26/2019 02:45 pm
There's a difference between using Starship and exclusively using Starship.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/26/2019 08:38 pm
Regarding the FH side cores, they could get some extra performance via landing those downrange on ASDS, but, we've yet to see Shortfall of Gravitas, so they have one ASDS, OCICELY, at the cape.

This makes me wonder - do they actually need an ASDS for each side core? Given the landing accuracy demonstrated, could they land both on the same ASDS, staggered in time like the RTLS? My guess is no, because the blast from the second one might knock the first one over, but I don't know.

Or, how about lashing a flat-topped barge to the stern of Ocisely for a second landing pad? As long as Ocisely can station-keep with the barge attached, it could be feasible. It's far, far cheaper than a whole new ASDS, and might be an option in the rare cases where side core ASDS recovery an expending the center core is needed.

Could this be a possible explanation why we've seen nothing of Shortfall of Gravitas?

At the risk of beating a dead horse, a reliable source says the plan is still to bring JRtI around to the Cape and there is no sign of ASoG being built. I'm still trying to find out why it's taking so long to bring JRtI out east.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 06/26/2019 08:50 pm
Regarding the FH side cores, they could get some extra performance via landing those downrange on ASDS, but, we've yet to see Shortfall of Gravitas, so they have one ASDS, OCICELY, at the cape.

This makes me wonder - do they actually need an ASDS for each side core? Given the landing accuracy demonstrated, could they land both on the same ASDS, staggered in time like the RTLS? My guess is no, because the blast from the second one might knock the first one over, but I don't know.

Or, how about lashing a flat-topped barge to the stern of Ocisely for a second landing pad? As long as Ocisely can station-keep with the barge attached, it could be feasible. It's far, far cheaper than a whole new ASDS, and might be an option in the rare cases where side core ASDS recovery an expending the center core is needed.

Could this be a possible explanation why we've seen nothing of Shortfall of Gravitas?

At the risk of beating a dead horse, a reliable source says the plan is still to bring JRtI around to the Cape and there is no sign of ASoG being built. I'm still trying to find out why it's taking so long to bring JRtI out east.

The "wings" of the landing zone have to be removed for it to fit through the Panama Canal.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 06/26/2019 09:17 pm
At the risk of beating a dead horse, a reliable source says the plan is still to bring JRtI around to the Cape and there is no sign of ASoG being built. I'm still trying to find out why it's taking so long to bring JRtI out east.
Makes me wonder if there's an unannounced launch on the manifest from VAFB that would require a droneship landing...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SDSmith on 06/26/2019 09:17 pm
Regarding the FH side cores, they could get some extra performance via landing those downrange on ASDS, but, we've yet to see Shortfall of Gravitas, so they have one ASDS, OCICELY, at the cape.

This makes me wonder - do they actually need an ASDS for each side core? Given the landing accuracy demonstrated, could they land both on the same ASDS, staggered in time like the RTLS? My guess is no, because the blast from the second one might knock the first one over, but I don't know.

Or, how about lashing a flat-topped barge to the stern of Ocisely for a second landing pad? As long as Ocisely can station-keep with the barge attached, it could be feasible. It's far, far cheaper than a whole new ASDS, and might be an option in the rare cases where side core ASDS recovery an expending the center core is needed.

Could this be a possible explanation why we've seen nothing of Shortfall of Gravitas?

At the risk of beating a dead horse, a reliable source says the plan is still to bring JRtI around to the Cape and there is no sign of ASoG being built. I'm still trying to find out why it's taking so long to bring JRtI out east.

The "wings" of the landing zone have to be removed for it to fit through the Panama Canal.
Based on a quick look using Wikipedia the new lock can handle ships 180' wide and again from Wikipedia it shows the width of the drone ship at 170' wide. So to me it looks like it will fit with the wings on.

Locks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal#Third_set_of_locks_project_(expansion)
Drone ship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_spaceport_drone_ship

To me the best way is to use one of the Dockwise semi-submersible heavy lift ship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOKA_Vanguard.
If it is available. Now I have no knowledge of the cost to transport either way and I believe Dockwise will have to go around South America.


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 06/26/2019 09:37 pm
Regarding the FH side cores, they could get some extra performance via landing those downrange on ASDS, but, we've yet to see Shortfall of Gravitas, so they have one ASDS, OCICELY, at the cape.

This makes me wonder - do they actually need an ASDS for each side core? Given the landing accuracy demonstrated, could they land both on the same ASDS, staggered in time like the RTLS? My guess is no, because the blast from the second one might knock the first one over, but I don't know.

Or, how about lashing a flat-topped barge to the stern of Ocisely for a second landing pad? As long as Ocisely can station-keep with the barge attached, it could be feasible. It's far, far cheaper than a whole new ASDS, and might be an option in the rare cases where side core ASDS recovery an expending the center core is needed.

Could this be a possible explanation why we've seen nothing of Shortfall of Gravitas?

At the risk of beating a dead horse, a reliable source says the plan is still to bring JRtI around to the Cape and there is no sign of ASoG being built. I'm still trying to find out why it's taking so long to bring JRtI out east.

The "wings" of the landing zone have to be removed for it to fit through the Panama Canal.
Based on a quick look using Wikipedia the new lock can handle ships 180' wide and again from Wikipedia it shows the width of the drone ship at 170' wide. So to me it looks like it will fit with the wings on.

Locks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal#Third_set_of_locks_project_(expansion)
Drone ship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_spaceport_drone_ship

To me the best way is to use one of the Dockwise semi-submersible heavy lift ship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOKA_Vanguard.
If it is available. Now I have no knowledge of the cost to transport either way and I believe Dockwise will have to go around South America.



Panamax is 160 ft. in width.

Yes, the canal locks are 180 ft. wide, but there has to be clearance on both sides for safety.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 06/26/2019 09:46 pm
Here's JRTI last time she went through the Canal. Note the "wings" are on the deck.

Quote
Carrying the wing extensions reportedly clipped from Marmac 300, Marmac 303 reached the Panama Canal on June 9 and began her transit June 14, exiting the Canal on the 15th.

Since the wing extensions – if attached – would make the barge too wide to transit the canal when attached, they were laid on her deck in sections as cargo

From: https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/06/spacex-augments-upgrades-drone-ship-armada/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: groknull on 06/26/2019 10:03 pm
[nested quote snipped]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, a reliable source says the plan is still to bring JRtI around to the Cape and there is no sign of ASoG being built. I'm still trying to find out why it's taking so long to bring JRtI out east.

The "wings" of the landing zone have to be removed for it to fit through the Panama Canal.

The wings had to be removed for passage through the original "Panamax" 33.53m (~110ft) wide locks.
With the wings installed, the ASDS is 51.82m (170ft) wide per a 2014 tweet from Elon.
The "New Panamax" width specification (through the new, wider locks) was 49m (~161ft) 1, and more recently, increased to 51.25m (~168ft) 2.

So technically, the ASDS is slightly over the allowable width for transiting the new Panama Canal locks.  The linked documents use the phrase "acceptable for regular transits" when referring to maximum dimensions.

"One-time transit of wider vessels may be permitted with prior approval of the Transit Operations Division Executive Manager, and subject to requirements listed in Paragraph 2.i (9)." - page 7 of Vessel Requirements 1.

The new locks are physically around 55m (~180ft) wide, so the ASDS, with wings installed, will likely fit through without problems.

1. https://micanaldepanama.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/SECTION-3-2018-EDITION-VESSEL-REQUIREMENTS.pdf
2. https://www.pancanal.com/common/maritime/advisories/2018/a-11-2018.pdf

EDIT: rationalized measurements
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 06/27/2019 10:54 am
At the risk of beating a dead horse, a reliable source says the plan is still to bring JRtI around to the Cape and there is no sign of ASoG being built. I'm still trying to find out why it's taking so long to bring JRtI out east.

Backing this up, here's Port Canaveral saying they're expecting "the sister" of OCISLY.  It's around the 48 minute mark.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48281.msg1954241#msg1954241
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/27/2019 12:29 pm
At the risk of beating a dead horse, a reliable source says the plan is still to bring JRtI around to the Cape and there is no sign of ASoG being built. I'm still trying to find out why it's taking so long to bring JRtI out east.

Backing this up, here's Port Canaveral saying they're expecting "the sister" of OCISLY.  It's around the 48 minute mark.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48281.msg1954241#msg1954241

Thanks, I hadn't seen that. That "state of the port" address was given in early Nov 2018, and the speaker said they had met with SpaceX about 6 weeks earlier, at which time SpaceX told them they would be bringing two new ships "over" to the port: Mr. Steven, and OCISLY's "sister."

Granted, "sister" is rather ambiguous, as a new twin such as ASoG could also be considered a sister, but there's also the word "over." He said they're bringing the 2 new ships "over" to the port. That implies bringing over from the west coast. And we saw Mr. Steven come over in February (the speaker said SpaceX told them early December, so Mr. Steven was about 2 months behind schedule.)

Now we seem to be waiting for JRtI to come "over" too.

Part of the continuing confusion re ASoG may be due to this Florida Today article reporting on the State of the Port address mentioned above. The author apparently assumed that the "sister" ASDS  that the port official mentioned was ASoG, since Elon had announced ASoG previously. But the source I spoke to said this is not correct, it's JRtI who will be coming "over."

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/2018/11/14/spacex-unique-fairing-catching-ship-mr-steven-coming-florida-port-canaveral/1998666002/

Now that Vandenberg will be idle until next year, what's the holdup in moving JRtI over? Possibly it's that there's no room at the Port yet. Quoting from the State of the Port address:

Quote
[Along with Mr. Steven] They're also bringing the sister to the SpaceX droneship here over to Port Canaveral as well. So we'll have two of those on the port, so they can handle the Falcon Heavies offshore. Our challenge is where do we put them? Because all of these vessels have to go somewhere and we just don't have extra bulkhead to park people. So that's one of our challenges.

Another factor is the launch manifest schedule. With the next Falcon Heavy not launching until fall 2020, there's really no hurry for JRtI to get to Port Canaveral, and that gives the Port plenty of time to find/make a berth for her.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 06/27/2019 02:55 pm
The GO Freedom is also at Port Canaveral now, I believe for the first time.  Has anybody heard if maybe this is the new control ship for JRTI?

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 06/27/2019 03:51 pm
>
Another factor is the launch manifest schedule. With the next Falcon Heavy not launching until fall 2020, there's really no hurry for JRtI to get to Port Canaveral, and that gives the Port plenty of time to find/make a berth for her.

Perhaps they need JRtI for rapid-fire StarLink launches, or doing StarLink + other launches with a short gap?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/27/2019 03:55 pm
>
Another factor is the launch manifest schedule. With the next Falcon Heavy not launching until fall 2020, there's really no hurry for JRtI to get to Port Canaveral, and that gives the Port plenty of time to find/make a berth for her.

Perhaps they need JRtI for rapid-fire StarLink launches, or doing StarLink + other launches with a short gap?

I guess it's possible, but the Port Canaveral guy said specifically that the second ASDS was being brought in for Falcon Heavy launches.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 06/27/2019 04:04 pm
That would seem to indicate an expanded role for disposing of the center core and catching both boosters downrange - the 90% capacity option.

Or, sending out 3 droneships, including ASoG, for 3 core recovery (very unlikely)

Possible missions: Gateway w/Dragon? StarLink Mars?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/27/2019 04:39 pm

That would seem to indicate an expanded role for disposing of the center core and catching both boosters downrange - the 90% capacity option.


Most likely this.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 06/28/2019 07:32 pm
If the wings are to be removed I'd suggest making them bolt on rather than cut & weld.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 06/28/2019 09:45 pm
I don’t see why they would remove both wings, remove one, secure it to the deck, ballast appropriately, go to the Cape.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Barley on 06/29/2019 01:03 am
If the wings are to be removed I'd suggest making them bolt on rather than cut & weld.
Men and women with torches don't view the permanence of welds in quite the same way the general public does.

It's common to weld things that will need to be removed a handful of times.  It's slightly less common to see an engineering analysis that justifies welds over bolts, but it does happen.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 06/30/2019 01:24 pm
If the wings are to be removed I'd suggest making them bolt on rather than cut & weld.
Men and women with torches don't view the permanence of welds in quite the same way the general public does.

It's common to weld things that will need to be removed a handful of times.  It's slightly less common to see an engineering analysis that justifies welds over bolts, but it does happen.

Further, in a marine environment, bolts can be almost as hard to remove as welds.
You only need a small fraction of stuck bolts before just grinding off a weld looks good.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/30/2019 11:41 pm
If the wings are to be removed I'd suggest making them bolt on rather than cut & weld.
Men and women with torches don't view the permanence of welds in quite the same way the general public does.

It's common to weld things that will need to be removed a handful of times.  It's slightly less common to see an engineering analysis that justifies welds over bolts, but it does happen.

Further, in a marine environment, bolts can be almost as hard to remove as welds.
You only need a small fraction of stuck bolts before just grinding off a weld looks good.

..plus there's the real risk of bolt failure without warning due to corrosion in the gap between the bolt head and the base metal.  Even under layers of paint which also make it impossible to inspect.   Bolts = scary; welds = good.


Edit:  Actually, hot rivets are a better option for something that needs to be removed, since removal is fast and easy and the join comes away with no damage to either the piece or the underlying structure: simply grind off the rivet heads to remove and replace the rivets to reinstall.  However no-one does this these days - the join is heavier, there's far too much labour and specialist equipment and expertise involved in doing it properly and, like bolts, regular inspections are required.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ZChris13 on 07/01/2019 01:58 am
If the wings are to be removed I'd suggest making them bolt on rather than cut & weld.
Men and women with torches don't view the permanence of welds in quite the same way the general public does.

It's common to weld things that will need to be removed a handful of times.  It's slightly less common to see an engineering analysis that justifies welds over bolts, but it does happen.

Further, in a marine environment, bolts can be almost as hard to remove as welds.
You only need a small fraction of stuck bolts before just grinding off a weld looks good.
Why would you grind a weld off? Just gouge it. Way faster.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 07/01/2019 02:42 am
Why would you grind a weld off? Just gouge it. Way faster.

Assuming you're referring to using a gas axe (aka oxy-acetylene torch) then, yes.  Grinders are really only used where necessary ship-board, since the wide spray of sparks is difficult to keep track of and (a) causes annoying rust spots in perfectly serviceable paintwork that are difficult/impossible to remove and (b) has started many a ship-board fire over the years.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ZChris13 on 07/01/2019 06:12 am
Why would you grind a weld off? Just gouge it. Way faster.

Assuming you're referring to using a gas axe (aka oxy-acetylene torch) then, yes.  Grinders are really only used where necessary ship-board, since the wide spray of sparks is difficult to keep track of and (a) causes annoying rust spots in perfectly serviceable paintwork that are difficult/impossible to remove and (b) has started many a ship-board fire over the years.
arc gouging
https://weldingproductivity.com/article/gouging-how-to/
fuel-oxy would also work, and doesn't require electricity
EDIT: any way you remove steel is going to produce a silly amount of sparks, there's no getting around that unless you mechanically break it
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 07/01/2019 06:48 am
EDIT: any way you remove steel is going to produce a silly amount of sparks, there's no getting around that unless you mechanically break it

Well then, let's just say there is "silly" (welder, gas torch, etc.) and then "really silly" (grinder)...  The idea is to keep the number of sparks and their general location controlled enough that the spotter can spray 'em before they become an issue.

Wet hessian over everything in sight helps also.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/01/2019 10:27 pm
twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1157047140407021568

Quote
BREAKING: Just Read the Instructions (aka Marmac 303) is to leave Los Angeles and transit the Panama Canal on 15th August.

The destination is not known but Port Canaveral is a potential location.

Thanks to u/Vedaprime on Reddit. Search for Marmac 303 👇

boydsteamship.com/booking

https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1157050719947710465q

Quote
This does raise a lot of questions.

- Is this the end of droneship landings on the West Coast?
- Is the 3rd droneship 'A Shortfall of Gravitas' canceled or will it go to the West Coast?
- Is this move advanced planning for rapid Starlink launches?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ZChris13 on 08/01/2019 10:54 pm
twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1157047140407021568

Quote
BREAKING: Just Read the Instructions (aka Marmac 303) is to leave Los Angeles and transit the Panama Canal on 15th August.

The destination is not known but Port Canaveral is a potential location.

Thanks to u/Vedaprime on Reddit. Search for Marmac 303 👇

boydsteamship.com/booking

https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1157050719947710465q

Quote
This does raise a lot of questions.

- Is this the end of droneship landings on the West Coast?
- Is the 3rd droneship 'A Shortfall of Gravitas' canceled or will it go to the West Coast?
- Is this move advanced planning for rapid Starlink launches?
Two droneships on one coast opens up a lot of potential RE: rapid reuse and RE: Falcon Heavy partially expendable, this is exciting news. They wouldn't drag it through the Panama Canal just for a refit or something.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 08/01/2019 11:20 pm
This does raise a lot of questions.

- Is this the end of droneship landings on the West Coast?
- Is the 3rd droneship 'A Shortfall of Gravitas' canceled or will it go to the West Coast?
- Is this move advanced planning for rapid Starlink launches?

Two droneships on one coast opens up a lot of potential RE: rapid reuse and RE: Falcon Heavy partially expendable, this is exciting news. They wouldn't drag it through the Panama Canal just for a refit or something.

The next Heavy launch is going to be sometime in 2020. There's only one planned for next year, with maybe two in 2021.

Logical to assume the two ASDS will be on the East coast primarily to support rapid single-stick Falcon 9 launch / recovery operations.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jcc on 08/02/2019 12:21 am
This does raise a lot of questions.

- Is this the end of droneship landings on the West Coast?
- Is the 3rd droneship 'A Shortfall of Gravitas' canceled or will it go to the West Coast?
- Is this move advanced planning for rapid Starlink launches?

Two droneships on one coast opens up a lot of potential RE: rapid reuse and RE: Falcon Heavy partially expendable, this is exciting news. They wouldn't drag it through the Panama Canal just for a refit or something.

The next Heavy launch is going to be sometime in 2020. There's only one planned for next year, with maybe two in 2021.

Logical to assume the two ASDS will be on the East coast primarily to support rapid single-stick Falcon 9 launch / recovery operations.

Maybe even a Starship launch?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: aero on 08/02/2019 01:09 am
Are the drone ships large enough and stable enough for the SS to land on and then ride back to port?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jcc on 08/02/2019 02:10 am
Sure. For testing it doesn’t have to be that far offshore, and can wait for calm seas.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wrvn on 08/02/2019 08:26 am
Some interesting comments from reddit user WaitForItTheMongols (https://old.reddit.com/user/WaitForItTheMongols):

Quote
>>> Why I think this? Well on top of the lack of evidence of ASOG being built,

I know this sucks and I'm sure it feels like a huge tease that I don't say more, but...

ASOG is being built, and it's suuuuuper cool. Very different from existing drone ships. Rest assured that progress is being made ;)

Quote
I can tell you that it is not scrapped, and that if you knew where to look, you would find it. It's sort of hidden through the "needle in a haystack effect".

Quote
I can tell you that it is very different from existing drone ships. Think about that and come to your own conclusions.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 08/02/2019 09:00 am
>
Maybe even a Starship launch?

Launches. The LC-39A SS/SH environmental assessment dropped and it says Super Heavy will land on an ASDS, at least initially.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 08/02/2019 11:26 am
Regarding the FH side cores, they could get some extra performance via landing those downrange on ASDS, but, we've yet to see Shortfall of Gravitas, so they have one ASDS, OCICELY, at the cape.

This makes me wonder - do they actually need an ASDS for each side core? Given the landing accuracy demonstrated, could they land both on the same ASDS, staggered in time like the RTLS? My guess is no, because the blast from the second one might knock the first one over, but I don't know.

Or, how about lashing a flat-topped barge to the stern of Ocisely for a second landing pad? As long as Ocisely can station-keep with the barge attached, it could be feasible. It's far, far cheaper than a whole new ASDS, and might be an option in the rare cases where side core ASDS recovery an expending the center core is needed.

Could this be a possible explanation why we've seen nothing of Shortfall of Gravitas?

At the risk of beating a dead horse, a reliable source says the plan is still to bring JRtI around to the Cape and there is no sign of ASoG being built. I'm still trying to find out why it's taking so long to bring JRtI out east.

So my source was correct, and JRTI is finally coming East.

Maybe ASoG will now be the Super Heavy landing platform, so that would explain the mystery of its absence so far. Probably shortly after Elon announced ASoG, they decided they would be ramping down ops at VAFB, transiting JRtI, and accelerating the SS/SH schedule. At which point the ASoG design might have been modified (if necessary) for the larger Super Heavy and construction delayed to concide with Super Heavy completion.

Or, they've decided that JRtI and OCISLY will be adequate for Super Heavy, so no ASoG.

I tried to follow the Reddit link posted above re claim that ASoG is being built, but the link doesn't work. So it's not clear to me that the Redditor isn't just another one of the people claiming to know that ASoG is being built, without any evidence. It's possible, but so far all those claims have been based on no evidence.

I'd love for ASoG to be built, but I'd also love it if people would stop with the "I know it's being built, and it's super cool, but I can't tell you where," nonsense.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ValmirGP on 08/02/2019 12:08 pm
With so few launches from Vandenberg in the foreseeable future, and with the growing acceptance of previously flown cores by its costumers, I wonder if it’s not the case that they are programming to transition to use only cores in end of life on the west coast and hence, the lack of necessity for a droneship there.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 08/02/2019 03:18 pm
With so few launches from Vandenberg in the foreseeable future, and with the growing acceptance of previously flown cores by its costumers, I wonder if it’s not the case that they are programming to transition to use only cores in end of life on the west coast and hence, the lack of necessity for a droneship there.

The next 4 or 6 launches out of Vandy (over the next 2 - 2 1/2 years) by my math are all well within RTLS capability. They do have a landing pad there.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/05/2019 11:32 pm
https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1158473995743875077

Quote
Just Read the Instructions and tugboat Alice C are into day 5 of their voyage and have now traveled about 1800km.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 08/06/2019 04:53 pm
JRtI is coming to the east coast because they can do polar orbits from the cape.

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/2017/12/31/southbound-cape-rockets-may-fly-new-path-toward-poles/975027001/

I assume everybody already knew this.

Also elon did just say that the boca chica and cocoa starships are in a race to orbit.
Which implies(conjecture) that either boca chica "will" get permits to launch SH or they plan to use asog to launch from.

Or I could be wrong and elon thinks SS testing to near orbit for heat shield testing qualifies for his orbit tweet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 08/06/2019 05:15 pm
Going to (hopefully) be in port later, will snap pics of the fleet and OCISLY and post tonight/tomorrow morning.  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 08/06/2019 05:47 pm
JRtI is coming to the east coast because they can do polar orbits from the cape.

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/2017/12/31/southbound-cape-rockets-may-fly-new-path-toward-poles/975027001/

I assume everybody already knew this.


That article has been discussed in the Vandenberg thread:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48391.msg1958060#msg1958060

However, to be clear, we don't know for a fact that SpaceX is going polar from the Cape any time soon. We do know a polar corridor has been approved from the Cape, but no on has said yet that it will actually be used.

Meanwhile, SpaceX could still continue to do occasional polar launches from VAFB, despite the reported downsizing, either RTLS or expending end-of-life boosters. Whitelancer64 says upthread that the next 2+ yrs of VAFB launch manifest can RTLS.

And since polar launches from the Cape will require a dogleg, SpaceX may want to wait before trying until Starship is online, since Starship will have such excess performance that it could dogleg easily. I don't know if F9 has the performance to do the dogleg. Maybe yes, maybe no, depending on payload and orbit.

Anyhow, good news for us here on the East Coast that JRtI is coming to join the crowd.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pobermanns on 08/06/2019 09:12 pm
Don't know if this has already been reported on NSF, but Teslarati has said that JRTI departed the Port of Long Beach, enroute to the Panama Canal. The tug going along is "Alice C". I've located it as of 8-6-2019, 1701 EDT with Marine Traffic near Colima, Mexico. However, it comes and goes on that website - maybe a poor signal.

Mods: if there's an existing thread for this topic, please relocate it. Thanks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pobermanns on 08/06/2019 09:27 pm
But it seems that the latest position reporting from the tug is over 4 hours old. With a speed of just under 9 knots, that would put the tug/JRTI about 10 NM SW of Colima right now. But, still no updated display.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: speedevil on 08/06/2019 09:28 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panamax#New_Panamax

After the last transit of a droneship in 2015, which involved sawing it in thirds and then rewelding, the canal was upgraded.
It went from 32m wide, to 49m.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Inoeth on 08/06/2019 09:30 pm
JRtI is coming to the east coast because they can do polar orbits from the cape.

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/2017/12/31/southbound-cape-rockets-may-fly-new-path-toward-poles/975027001/

I assume everybody already knew this.


That article has been discussed in the Vandenberg thread:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48391.msg1958060#msg1958060

However, to be clear, we don't know for a fact that SpaceX is going polar from the Cape any time soon. We do know a polar corridor has been approved from the Cape, but no on has said yet that it will actually be used.

Meanwhile, SpaceX could still continue to do occasional polar launches from VAFB, despite the reported downsizing, either RTLS or expending end-of-life boosters. Whitelancer64 says upthread that the next 2+ yrs of VAFB launch manifest can RTLS.

And since polar launches from the Cape will require a dogleg, SpaceX may want to wait before trying until Starship is online, since Starship will have such excess performance that it could dogleg easily. I don't know if F9 has the performance to do the dogleg. Maybe yes, maybe no, depending on payload and orbit.

Anyhow, good news for us here on the East Coast that JRtI is coming to join the crowd.

While JRtI is indeed coming east, isn't it entirely possible and even probable that they'll use it in TX for Hopper and Orbital prototype tests and if need be sail it back to CA to catch the one rocket that'll actually launch out of VAFB  a year or whatever... I'd be surprised if there's a FH mission that requires so much capacity that they need to do the duel side booster water landings with an expended center core. More likely if JRTI is coming to FL would be simply as a backup for increased launch cadence of Starlink and other missions that all require droneship landings... ASOG if it still is happening would probably be based out of Florida to be the SH drone ship for those tests that may happen starting next year allegedly- tho I suppose it's also possible ASOG could start in TX if JRTI goes to FL..

I guess we'll find out about JRTI at the least next week once it passes thru the canal and we get to see it's final destination port, and if we're lucky we'll find out about ASOG from Elon during the presentation.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: pobermanns on 08/06/2019 09:50 pm
And here's the route forecast for the tug (apparently with JRTI in tow).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 08/06/2019 10:03 pm

While JRtI is indeed coming east, isn't it entirely possible and even probable that they'll use it in TX for Hopper and Orbital prototype tests and if need be sail it back to CA to catch the one rocket that'll actually launch out of VAFB  a year or whatever...


No, it's definitely coming to the Cape per multiple reliable sources.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 08/06/2019 10:55 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panamax#New_Panamax

After the last transit of a droneship in 2015, which involved sawing it in thirds and then rewelding, the canal was upgraded.
It went from 32m wide, to 49m.
Minor nit that canal has not been upgraded. It is the original locks. This time it is travelling through the new locks. Eventually the old locks will be dismantled and rebuilt to the width of the new locks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gaballard on 08/06/2019 11:22 pm
Sounds like they'll use one of the ships for Starship testing and keep one for Falcon landings, in case they punch a 9m hole through the deck with SS...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: The_Ronin on 08/12/2019 07:18 pm
Sounds like they'll use one of the ships for Starship testing and keep one for Falcon landings, in case they punch a 9m hole through the deck with SS...

JRTI is familiar with Anti-ASDS Falcons trying to punch holes thru the deck!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 08/13/2019 02:25 am
Sounds like they'll use one of the ships for Starship testing and keep one for Falcon landings, in case they punch a 9m hole through the deck with SS...

JRTI is familiar with Anti-ASDS Falcons trying to punch holes thru the deck!
That was JRTI I (MARMAC 301 (I think that was the correct garage number)).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/13/2019 05:49 pm
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1161331720093876226

Quote
Tug Alice C with Just Read the Instructions in tow appears to be on track for an August 15th appointment to travel the Panama Canal. It is too soon to tell exactly where their final destination is. I look forward to watching their track after
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alexphysics on 08/16/2019 01:06 am
Sounds like they'll use one of the ships for Starship testing and keep one for Falcon landings, in case they punch a 9m hole through the deck with SS...

JRTI is familiar with Anti-ASDS Falcons trying to punch holes thru the deck!
That was JRTI I (MARMAC 301 (I think that was the correct garage number)).

Does Jason 3's booster count?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Tomness on 08/16/2019 03:11 am
Sounds like they'll use one of the ships for Starship testing and keep one for Falcon landings, in case they punch a 9m hole through the deck with SS...

JRTI is familiar with Anti-ASDS Falcons trying to punch holes thru the deck!
That was JRTI I (MARMAC 301 (I think that was the correct garage number)).

Does Jason 3's booster count?

That one was so close, only 1.1 booster to nail it's landing but use older model legs that allowed it to tip over.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/18/2019 11:50 am
https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1163051451461054469

Quote
Just Read the Instructions is entering the Panama Canal, after a 68 hour queue time.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/18/2019 01:22 pm
https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1163075611713331200

Quote
Just Read the Instructions has entered the Miraflores locks, as she leaves the Pacific Ocean after 4 years of service out of Los Angeles.

The droneship wing extensions have been detached so it can fit through the Panama Canal locks

Many thanks to @Oswaldo_S28 for the photo!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 08/18/2019 07:11 pm
Interesting that they used a narrower lock. Maybe it's cheaper? Or less queue?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: archae86 on 08/18/2019 07:56 pm
Interesting that they used a narrower lock. Maybe it's cheaper? Or less queue?
I found a Panama canal toll calculator online, and plugged in some guesstimate numbers.
For using the old locks I provided a beam under the old lock limit, and got an estimated fee all things totaled of just over $22,000, versus just over $30,000 with all the same numbers save specifying the new locks and a beam wide enough to require it.

I doubt my own result, as $8,000 seems small to pay for the effort to dis-assemble and re-assemble the wings.  Maybe your queue guess is it, or the calculator I found is faulty, or the numbers I supplied were importantly wrong. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: groknull on 08/18/2019 10:04 pm
Interesting that they used a narrower lock. Maybe it's cheaper? Or less queue?
I found a Panama canal toll calculator online, and plugged in some guesstimate numbers.
For using the old locks I provided a beam under the old lock limit, and got an estimated fee all things totaled of just over $22,000, versus just over $30,000 with all the same numbers save specifying the new locks and a beam wide enough to require it.

I doubt my own result, as $8,000 seems small to pay for the effort to dis-assemble and re-assemble the wings.  Maybe your queue guess is it, or the calculator I found is faulty, or the numbers I supplied were importantly wrong.

While the ASDS may physically fit through the new locks with wings attached, it is slightly over the regular transit maximum width specification (aka "New Panamax") for the new locks.  That means it would likely need to get a one-time transit permit which involves a bunch of paperwork.

My guess (no inside knowledge) is that the effort required to prepare and forward the documentation ($$$) plus the one-time permit fee (more $$$), plus the risk of schedule impact (more $$$ for cost of tugs and crew) was greater than the cost of detaching the wings and doing a regular Panamax (specification for narrow locks) transit.

Locks and ASDS dimensions discussed upthread.  Relevant documents attached to this post:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1960600#msg1960600
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 08/18/2019 10:54 pm
Sounds like they'll use one of the ships for Starship testing and keep one for Falcon landings, in case they punch a 9m hole through the deck with SS...

JRTI is familiar with Anti-ASDS Falcons trying to punch holes thru the deck!

For the first SS landing attempt, maybe they'll get a stack of those inch-thick steel plates that road contractors use as temporary hole covers and spread them around on the deck. No welding needed, so they would be relatively easy to install/remove.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: groknull on 08/18/2019 11:08 pm
Sounds like they'll use one of the ships for Starship testing and keep one for Falcon landings, in case they punch a 9m hole through the deck with SS...

JRTI is familiar with Anti-ASDS Falcons trying to punch holes thru the deck!

For the first SS landing attempt, maybe they'll get a stack of those inch-thick steel plates that road contractors use as temporary hole covers and spread them around on the deck. No welding needed, so they would be relatively easy to install/remove.

No welding needed?  Are you sure?

CRS-11 stage 1 RTLS flying steel plate calculations courtesy of LouScheffer:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42229.msg1689577#msg1689577
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 08/19/2019 02:08 am
Sounds like they'll use one of the ships for Starship testing and keep one for Falcon landings, in case they punch a 9m hole through the deck with SS...

JRTI is familiar with Anti-ASDS Falcons trying to punch holes thru the deck!

For the first SS landing attempt, maybe they'll get a stack of those inch-thick steel plates that road contractors use as temporary hole covers and spread them around on the deck. No welding needed, so they would be relatively easy to install/remove.

No welding needed?  Are you sure?

CRS-11 stage 1 RTLS flying steel plate calculations courtesy of LouScheffer:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42229.msg1689577#msg1689577

Hah, LouScheffer has a calculation for everything! OK, so get out the welder...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 08/19/2019 02:15 pm
I think you probably want to do a good job of welding too, not just a few tacks here and there...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 08/19/2019 03:05 pm
I think you probably want to do a good job of welding too, not just a few tacks here and there...

Maybe so, but my train of thought was that SpaceX would probably want to minimize or avoid any regulatory difficulties involved with modifying the barge, and if they could lay plates on the deck (and maybe weld them to each other?) without physically attaching them to the barge, maybe that qualifies as just cargo instead of a "barge mod" requiring Coast Guard approval, etc.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: launchwatcher on 08/19/2019 04:02 pm
Sounds like they'll use one of the ships for Starship testing and keep one for Falcon landings, in case they punch a 9m hole through the deck with SS...

JRTI is familiar with Anti-ASDS Falcons trying to punch holes thru the deck!

For the first SS landing attempt, maybe they'll get a stack of those inch-thick steel plates that road contractors use as temporary hole covers and spread them around on the deck. No welding needed, so they would be relatively easy to install/remove.

No welding needed?  Are you sure?

CRS-11 stage 1 RTLS flying steel plate calculations courtesy of LouScheffer:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42229.msg1689577#msg1689577
Never mind the rocket exhaust - I doubt they'd stay put in heavy seas.  Waves, wind, water spray on the deck and probably a bit of stray oil or grease would all conspire to get them moving.   

Edited to add:

Maybe so, but my train of thought was that SpaceX would probably want to minimize or avoid any regulatory difficulties involved with modifying the barge, and if they could lay plates on the deck (and maybe weld them to each other?) without physically attaching them to the barge, maybe that qualifies as just cargo instead of a "barge mod" requiring Coast Guard approval, etc.

Recall that, before the octograbber, they welded down struts and tie down points to secure landed boosters.   Welding like that is apparently just all in a day's work on these sorts of barges.

As someone else said here recently, people who use welding torches for a living have a different idea of what counts as permanent..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 08/19/2019 04:14 pm
I think you probably want to do a good job of welding too, not just a few tacks here and there...

Maybe so, but my train of thought was that SpaceX would probably want to minimize or avoid any regulatory difficulties involved with modifying the barge, and if they could lay plates on the deck (and maybe weld them to each other?) without physically attaching them to the barge, maybe that qualifies as just cargo instead of a "barge mod" requiring Coast Guard approval, etc.
You have a devious mind! Sure.. if they hang off the edge on both sides, with lips? Maybe no welds to the deck at all.

However given how "welding" seems to be a way to "tape this here for a sec will ya" (I never thought of welding as impermanent before we started this odyssey) for some people, maybe you could argue that the plates are just 'deck cargo' being laid down and the welds are just "load straps" ....

edit: Kinda ninjaed by launchwatcher...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 08/19/2019 05:14 pm
I think you probably want to do a good job of welding too, not just a few tacks here and there...

Maybe so, but my train of thought was that SpaceX would probably want to minimize or avoid any regulatory difficulties involved with modifying the barge, and if they could lay plates on the deck (and maybe weld them to each other?) without physically attaching them to the barge, maybe that qualifies as just cargo instead of a "barge mod" requiring Coast Guard approval, etc.
SpaceX have already:
- Added 'wings' to the side to significantly extend the deck and modify the overall beam
- Removed the wings
- Reattached the wings
- Added fully autonomous propulsion modules
- Added an onboard free-roaming robot & only-a-little-bit-flammable hydraulic power unit

I think adding some extra deck plating is pretty far down the list of "things we might need approval to do".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Scylla on 08/19/2019 07:32 pm
Alice C is entering the Gatun Lock.

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-79.921/centery:9.268/zoom:15
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Fred on 08/19/2019 07:52 pm
https://multimedia.panama-canal.com/Webcams/gatun.html
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rondaz on 08/20/2019 03:44 am
I have a destination for Just Read the Instructions! The droneship is heading for Morgan City, Louisiana.

It is VERY important to note that this is where JRTI and OCISLY were built in 2015.

https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1163584759722860545
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/20/2019 04:47 am
Rest of the thread:

twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1163585538496053250

Quote
Possible theories I have drawn together include:

- Upgrades to support Starship / Super Heavy.
- A convenient place to reweld the wing extensions before final delivery somewhere else.
- Decommissioning of the droneship.

https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1163588467776995328

Quote
In the interest of covering all possibilities that I can think of, here is another option:

- Maintenance / Refurbishment.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ZChris13 on 08/20/2019 06:02 am
I think you probably want to do a good job of welding too, not just a few tacks here and there...

Maybe so, but my train of thought was that SpaceX would probably want to minimize or avoid any regulatory difficulties involved with modifying the barge, and if they could lay plates on the deck (and maybe weld them to each other?) without physically attaching them to the barge, maybe that qualifies as just cargo instead of a "barge mod" requiring Coast Guard approval, etc.
You have a devious mind! Sure.. if they hang off the edge on both sides, with lips? Maybe no welds to the deck at all.

However given how "welding" seems to be a way to "tape this here for a sec will ya" (I never thought of welding as impermanent before we started this odyssey) for some people, maybe you could argue that the plates are just 'deck cargo' being laid down and the welds are just "load straps" ....

edit: Kinda ninjaed by launchwatcher...
There is infinite amounts of space between "tack this thing in place so it quits wiggling around" and "I want to need to send this to a laboratory to tell that these two pieces of steel were ever separate". The latter is the goal that welders strive for and quite a bit more "permanent" than the former, but for anybody who welds turning a single piece of steel into two is the easiest thing in the world. Unless it's stainless and the plasma torch is back in the shop, or you're not allowed to use fire.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Cheapchips on 08/20/2019 12:11 pm
Rest of the thread:

twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1163585538496053250

Quote
Possible theories I have drawn together include:

- Upgrades to support Starship / Super Heavy.
- A convenient place to reweld the wing extensions before final delivery somewhere else.
- Decommissioning of the droneship.

https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1163588467776995328

Quote
In the interest of covering all possibilities that I can think of, here is another option:

- Maintenance / Refurbishment.

We know they plan to barge Mk2 next month.  What's cheaper, fitting out JRTI to act as transport or hire and outfit another barge?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ClayJar on 08/20/2019 01:32 pm
I have a destination for Just Read the Instructions! The droneship is heading for Morgan City, Louisiana.

Morgan City, indeed.  I guess I'd better get my Hobie tuned up and ready for another excursion.  8)

If they're just reattaching the JRTI wings where they removed them from old JRTI (and winged up OCISLY), it's just upstream of the public launch at the end of the road heading downstream on the Berwick side.  Should be easy enough to drop by and check, right?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 08/20/2019 01:50 pm
Remember the tip about ASOG being "in plain sight"?  Any chance they'll just re-christen JRTI after making upgrades?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ZachS09 on 08/20/2019 02:32 pm
What about using JRTI for FH side booster landings in the Atlantic alongside OCISLY?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 08/20/2019 02:39 pm
What about using JRTI for FH side booster landings in the Atlantic alongside OCISLY?

That is a possibility, though there aren't many Falcon Heavy launches on the horizon... More likely to use two ASDS to support a high launch cadence of single Falcon 9's IMO.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: llanitedave on 08/20/2019 04:13 pm
Remember the tip about ASOG being "in plain sight"?  Any chance they'll just re-christen JRTI after making upgrades?
The Google Earth Image of that area was taken on March 20 of this year.  Might that be late enough to capture ASOG under construction?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 08/20/2019 05:05 pm
What about using JRTI for FH side booster landings in the Atlantic alongside OCISLY?

Funny you should ask, because that was originally the rationale for bringing a second ASDS to the Cape, but obviously with reduction of activity at VAFB, the possibility of polar launches from the Cape, and Starhsip coming soon, there are more pressing reasons now for a tag-team ASDS flotilla.

Not least of which is, if they hole-punch an ASDS with a Starship landing, they'll have a backup to continue with F9 launches while the other is being repaired.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 08/20/2019 05:20 pm

We know they plan to barge Mk2 next month.  What's cheaper, fitting out JRTI to act as transport or hire and outfit another barge?

I wondered the same thing, but with the infrastructure on either end somewhat obstructing loading/unloading in an end-on barge orientation, they might opt to hire out another deck barge that doesn't have all the superstructure on deck.

Update: and here's a screen shot from a local TV news report about how SpaceX is planning to move Starship to the pad by barge. This shot is from a document reportedly submitted by SpaceX, showing how they'll transition from the road to the barge. It looks like Starship will be horizontal on a mobile transporter, which will drive onto the barge end-on. So it's pretty clear from the schematic that neither one of the ASDS's would work in current configuration (with wings, etc.)

I'm guessing the auxiliary barge has 4 spuds (see pic below of typical spud barge) that will be dropped down into the riverbed to fix it in place, as a sort of temporary dock, helping to hold the main barge in place.

https://www.clickorlando.com/news/investigators/how-spacex-plans-to-move-starship-from-cocoa-site-to-kennedy-space-center
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 08/21/2019 06:02 pm

We know they plan to barge Mk2 next month. 
There is no Mk 2  There are two Mk 1's and they plan to barge the Cocoa Mk 1 next month. Hopper is not Mk 1 it is the hopper.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ThomasGadd on 08/21/2019 06:21 pm

We know they plan to barge Mk2 next month. 
There is no Mk 2  There are two Mk 1's and they plan to barge the Cocoa Mk 1 next month. Hopper is not Mk 1 it is the hopper.

I thought the same as you...  Yesterday I checked EM's twitter archive and saw he does reference Mk.1 as Texas and Mk,2 as Florida. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RDMM2081 on 08/22/2019 12:01 am

We know they plan to barge Mk2 next month. 
There is no Mk 2  There are two Mk 1's and they plan to barge the Cocoa Mk 1 next month. Hopper is not Mk 1 it is the hopper.

I thought the same as you...  Yesterday I checked EM's twitter archive and saw he does reference Mk.1 as Texas and Mk,2 as Florida.

Here is the tweet for reference to clear the confusion (I was also confused!)

Dug up recently by AC in NC in this thread: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=47729.msg1982112#msg1982112

Originally: Reply #64 this thread (if the link doesn't index correctly): https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=47352.msg1949091#msg1949091

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1131429223258677248
Tweet Contents:  When will multi engine test vehicles begin construction? Will a Super Heavy engine section be test fired this year?  Mk1 & Mk2 ships at Boca & Cape will fly with at least 3 engines, maybe all 6
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 08/22/2019 12:44 am

SpaceXFleetUpdates:
- Decommissioning of the droneship.
I can't imagine why they would have brought the torched off deck extensions with them if they were going to decommission... they would just send them to a scrapper in California somewhere, I would think.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 08/22/2019 03:55 am
Mk1 & Mk2 ships at Boca & Cape will fly with at least 3 engines, maybe all 6

Tired, got the quote wrong.  Elon said it, not you.

I can see some wiggle room for another interpretation being possible.  Alternate would be that they are currently working on two Mk1s, one each at Boca & Cocoa/cape and will also be starting on Mk2 at each location next.  Also keep in mind that Elon probably knows less than most anyone at SpaceX or on this forum about naming nomenclature or its consistent usage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RDMM2081 on 08/22/2019 04:57 am
I agree, it is still a little ambiguous, but there is at least some credence to call the Cocoa build “mk2” straight from a horses mouth, as it were.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Confusador on 08/22/2019 03:11 pm

SpaceXFleetUpdates:
Possible theories I have drawn together include:
....
- Decommissioning of the droneship.
I can't imagine why they would have brought the torched off deck extensions with them if they were going to decommission... they would just send them to a scrapper in California somewhere, I would think.

I added some context to your quote (in bold), in case anyone else has the same confusion I did about the claim being made.  I agree that it's probably the least likely of the options, but SpaceXFleetUpdates is probably also correct that we don't have enough info to take it off the table yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 08/22/2019 03:27 pm

SpaceXFleetUpdates:
- Decommissioning of the droneship.
I can't imagine why they would have brought the torched off deck extensions with them if they were going to decommission... they would just send them to a scrapper in California somewhere, I would think.

Unless SX is recycling the wing extensions onto the next ASDS unit. Low probability IMO.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 08/22/2019 07:06 pm

SpaceXFleetUpdates:
- Decommissioning of the droneship.
I can't imagine why they would have brought the torched off deck extensions with them if they were going to decommission... they would just send them to a scrapper in California somewhere, I would think.

Unless SX is recycling the wing extensions onto the next ASDS unit. Low probability IMO.

Once again, decommissioning and/or wing swapping is not happening, per reliable sources. SpaceX has told their barge ops people that both existing ASDS barges will be based "permanently" at the Cape.

Elon's apparently rather aspirational touting of ASoG seems to have been based on assumptions that (1) JRtI would stay at VAFB, and (2) FH could be flying more often from the Cape, and need help for double booster landings. But with the change of plans at VAFB, JRtI is now free to pick up the slack at the Cape, and it appears that plans for ASoG have been quietly dropped. SpaceX's own director of recovery ops has even said candidly that as far as he knew, ASoG was not being built, and that he'd quit if it was being built and no one told him about it.

So JRtI is definitely going back to the Cape, after the wings are re-attached in Morgan City. There will also be some improvements done. The underside of the wings will reportedly be boxed in for additional strength and buoyancy, as was done on OCISLY.

And I'm trying to determine if there will be any deck reinforcements for Starship. There's already a 10' x 10' thick steel protective plate that's been overlaid on the deck in the blast zone of the landing engine, and it's been taking a beating from the thermal cycling of the landing burn heating followed by LOX dump. It has cracked from the heating, and Coast Guard is inspecting the barges after every landing. So they may need to beef up the thermal protection.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 08/22/2019 08:37 pm
Has anyone calculated the approximate leg span of SS? Guessing it'll be considerably wider than F9.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MKremer on 08/23/2019 02:02 am
The only one we know for sure is the Hopper's.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: su27k on 08/23/2019 03:13 am
SpaceX's own director of recovery ops has even said candidly that as far as he knew, ASoG was not being built, and that he'd quit if it was being built and no one told him about it.

But he may not be in the loop if ASoG is not for recovery ops, just saying...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 08/23/2019 05:49 am
SpaceX's own director of recovery ops has even said candidly that as far as he knew, ASoG was not being built, and that he'd quit if it was being built and no one told him about it.

But he may not be in the loop if ASoG is not for recovery ops, just saying...

It makes more sense to me that ASoG might be a proposed name for the SS RO/RO delivery barge (assuming they need to aquire something special) pictured a few posts back... and would be quite a fitting name for it too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: chrisking0997 on 08/23/2019 04:18 pm

And I'm trying to determine if there will be any deck reinforcements for Starship. There's already a 10' x 10' thick steel protective plate that's been overlaid on the deck in the blast zone of the landing engine, and it's been taking a beating from the thermal cycling of the landing burn heating followed by LOX dump. It has cracked from the heating, and Coast Guard is inspecting the barges after every landing. So they may need to beef up the thermal protection.

sounds like a good place to put down some starship tiles
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: OxCartMark on 08/23/2019 05:01 pm
There's a whole buncha good stuff in that Kabloona post.  Best to back up a few an re-read it.  He's got people.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 08/23/2019 05:10 pm
Has anyone calculated the approximate leg span of SS? Guessing it'll be considerably wider than F9.
I'm guessing not that much (if at all) bigger as the wide span of F9 is due to fineness ratio. SS/SS are squatter and may not need as much span. IIRC this was discussed before. Somewhere.

It would be good if not too much bigger, allows reuse of the current ASDS fleet (with possible reinforcement as speculated above)

SpaceX's own director of recovery ops has even said candidly that as far as he knew, ASoG was not being built, and that he'd quit if it was being built and no one told him about it.

But he may not be in the loop if ASoG is not for recovery ops, just saying...

It makes more sense to me that ASoG might be a proposed name for the SS RO/RO delivery barge (assuming they need to aquire something special) pictured a few posts back... and would be quite a fitting name for it too.


I think that might be a one-off (and thus a hire barge). Remember they raised lines, not buried them, so this might be a one time move and further construction relocates to Roberts Road.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: aero on 08/23/2019 06:34 pm
Has anyone calculated the approximate leg span of SS? Guessing it'll be considerably wider than F9.
I'm guessing not that much (if at all) bigger as the wide span of F9 is due to fineness ratio. SS/SS are squatter and may not need as much span. IIRC this was discussed before. Somewhere.

It would be good if not too much bigger, allows reuse of the current ASDS fleet (with possible reinforcement as speculated above)
 
----------------------------------------------------Snip


As I recall the leg span of the F9 booster is 60 feet. With a 9 m SS or SH, 60 feet means the legs would extend 15 feet out from the outer diameter of the vehicles. That seems quite practical to me.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 08/23/2019 06:49 pm
The span of the legs has to do with the height of the c.g., not with the physical diameter of the body cylinder.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 08/23/2019 07:17 pm
The span of the legs has to do with the height of the c.g., not with the physical diameter of the body cylinder.
well technically, yeah

That means that it's not impossible that SS/SH might get by with SMALLER spans! (CG being lower because less tall tankage) probably not much if any.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 08/23/2019 08:30 pm
The span of the legs has to do with the height of the c.g., not with the physical diameter of the body cylinder.
well technically, yeah

That means that it's not impossible that SS/SH might get by with SMALLER spans! (CG being lower because less tall tankage) probably not much if any.
A render of SS on OCISLY would be nice. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: aero on 08/23/2019 10:35 pm
So how tall is the SH and the F9 booster? No reason to count the SS as there is no reason to land an SS on a barge, and similarly, no reason to count the full SS/SH stack because there is no reason for the stack to ever be on one of the existing barges.

The F9 first stage is about 41 meters tall, the SH is about 62 meters tall. As both vehicles are rocket boosters and both will be nearly empty upon landing, it seems fair to say that the mass distribution over the length will be very similar if not the same. That would put the CG of each booster halfway up, or 20.5 and 31 meters up respectively. The exception to this rule will be the comparative mass of the engines and thrust structure.  Thirty-seven Raptors will be much more massive than 9 Merlins. So maybe the CG's are the same height. In any case, they are less than 10 meters different.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cppetrie on 08/23/2019 10:57 pm
So how tall is the SH and the F9 booster? No reason to count the SS as there is no reason to land an SS on a barge, and similarly, no reason to count the full SS/SH stack because there is no reason for the stack to ever be on one of the existing barges.

The F9 first stage is about 41 meters tall, the SH is about 62 meters tall. As both vehicles are rocket boosters and both will be nearly empty upon landing, it seems fair to say that the mass distribution over the length will be very similar if not the same. That would put the CG of each booster halfway up, or 20.5 and 31 meters up respectively. The exception to this rule will be the comparative mass of the engines and thrust structure.  Thirty-seven Raptors will be much more massive than 9 Merlins. So maybe the CG's are the same height. In any case, they are less than 10 meters different.
SH won’t need to land on a drone ship. It is intended for RTLS. But SS might do drone ship landings during early test phases. This is why SS on a drone ship is being discussed currently.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lars-J on 08/23/2019 11:46 pm
So how tall is the SH and the F9 booster? No reason to count the SS as there is no reason to land an SS on a barge, and similarly, no reason to count the full SS/SH stack because there is no reason for the stack to ever be on one of the existing barges.

The F9 first stage is about 41 meters tall, the SH is about 62 meters tall. As both vehicles are rocket boosters and both will be nearly empty upon landing, it seems fair to say that the mass distribution over the length will be very similar if not the same. That would put the CG of each booster halfway up, or 20.5 and 31 meters up respectively. The exception to this rule will be the comparative mass of the engines and thrust structure.  Thirty-seven Raptors will be much more massive than 9 Merlins. So maybe the CG's are the same height. In any case, they are less than 10 meters different.
SH won’t need to land on a drone ship. It is intended for RTLS. But SS might do drone ship landings during early test phases. This is why SS on a drone ship is being discussed currently.

it's the opposite of what you think, according to the EIS. Initial SH landings will be on a drone ship. SS is planned to land at launch site. Eventually both should land at the launch site, I imagine.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: niwax on 08/27/2019 08:31 pm
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1166447763745210368

Elon Musk:
Dronship with wings folded traveling through Panama Canal
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 08/28/2019 06:24 am
Remember the tip about ASOG being "in plain sight"?  Any chance they'll just re-christen JRTI after making upgrades?
I strongly suspect that ASoG is in or near Brownsville.  But I have absolutely no evidence of this, just a hunch. Also, "not for recovery ops" per Kabloona's source, probably part of the point-to-point or starship projects.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yokem55 on 08/28/2019 06:05 pm
We'll probably be seeing the SpaceX fleet packing up soon to get out of dodge due to Dorian coming to town.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 08/29/2019 01:32 am
We'll probably be seeing the SpaceX fleet packing up soon to get out of dodge due to Dorian coming to town.
Yep.

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1166884186373931009


@julia_bergeron:
Quote
It appears that the #SpaceXFleet has begun the process of getting the hell out of Dodge ahead of #Dorian. GO Searcher, Crew Dragon support vessel, is first to leave @PortCanaveral .

LOL that the same "get out of Dodge" phrasing was used twice. Non US people probably have no idea why this is a phrase (or why it's now funny)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lars-J on 08/29/2019 08:00 pm
Are they seeking a more protective harbor or just the open ocean?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ken the Bin on 08/30/2019 04:16 am
Are they seeking a more protective harbor or just the open ocean?

https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1167155531510890499 (https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1167155531510890499)

Quote from: SpaceXFleet Updates
The SpaceX Fleet is approaching the mouth of St Johns River. They will travel down it to the moorings at Green Cove Springs.

The area here is more protected from storm surges but if the predictions are correct then they will still experience some serious weather. Stay safe all!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 09/01/2019 06:31 pm
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1168228733284769792

Quote
I'm not the first, but here she is! Went out and found #JRTI in Berwick, LA. My Intel was out of date from not checking Twitter in a while and I went to the Stevensville location. Oops. @SpaceXFleet @julia_bergeron

Edit to add:

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1168228814276743168

Quote
And a nice panorama view. You can walk right up to it on the levee! @SpaceXFleet @julia_bergeron
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 09/04/2019 02:05 pm
https://twitter.com/spacecoast_stve/status/1169248385288814592

Quote
Of Course I Still Love You appears to have weathered the storm. She’s still berthed, and there’s no obvious damage! @SpaceXFleet #OCISLY
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 09/14/2019 09:30 pm
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1172981225914621954

Quote
No change with #JRTI that's visible. Nobody's here. @SpaceXFleet @julia_bergeron
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 09/17/2019 06:55 pm
https://twitter.com/spacecoast_stve/status/1174020731702796289

Quote
One of #OCISLY’s thrusters is being reinstalled...? Who knew it had even been removed? 🤷‍♂️ Octograbber is out sunbathing. The whole gang is here!This video is sped up 4x. @SpaceXFleet
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 09/18/2019 08:29 pm
Re OCISLY thrusters, IIRC someone in the know (Teslarati?) recently mentioned a thruster upgrade, but I can't find the post. Possibly these are the new thrusters going in.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 09/19/2019 08:53 am
I recalled the same, but could not find the source. IIRC it was to help handle the faster gulf-stream currents for further downrange landings.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 09/20/2019 06:01 am
Re OCISLY thrusters, IIRC someone in the know (Teslarati?) recently mentioned a thruster upgrade, but I can't find the post. Possibly these are the new thrusters going in.

They would have had to remove the thrusters (wings, thruster shrouds and anything else hanging off the side of the barge) to make the journey in any case, giving them a good opportunity to at least service the thrusters and give them a coat of paint.

From the photos posted it's impossible to tell whether these are upgraded ones or not.  We'll have to wait until either (a) someone confirms it or (b) the final install makes it obvious.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rondaz on 09/28/2019 08:48 pm
Looks like some work is finally being done on #JRTI. A few small cranes have shown up (2 not pictured). Also looks like welding gear on the decks? Not sure. And some machinery running.

Looks like whatever it is will be a slow process. Probably just maintenance.

https://twitter.com/SausseImages/status/1178025010176364547
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 10/09/2019 06:20 pm
Not sure what prompted this tweet earlier:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1181987612992524288

Quote
A Shortfall of Gravitas

twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/1181987730106064897

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1181987789589508096

Quote
Yes
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 10/09/2019 11:42 pm
Nothing like another cryptic tweet about Shortfall of Gravitas to stir the pot again...

Well, Elon says it's going to be a drone ship, so I believe him. The mystery is why it's taken so long and been so secretive, to the point that even people connected to the other drone ship ops haven't known where it was or if it was even being built at all. Either they chose an extremely remote shipyard to build it, or it was being built in plain sight but looks so different that no one recognized it, or the project was shelved until recently, or some combination of all three.

Yet another surprise to look forward to, apparently.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsnellenberger on 10/10/2019 01:05 pm
Not sure what prompted this tweet earlier:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1181987612992524288

Quote
A Shortfall of Gravitas

twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/1181987730106064897

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1181987789589508096

Quote
Yes
His initial tweet might also have been a reference to his reported comments on the diver incident (although he responded “Yes” to the follow up question about the drone ship):

“Billionaire Elon Musk has described himself as “an ... idiot” for his handling of the PR disaster that followed from his tweet calling a British cave diver “pedo guy” in 2018.”
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 10/10/2019 02:15 pm

His initial tweet might also have been a reference to his reported comments on the diver incident (although he responded “Yes” to the follow up question about the drone ship):

“Billionaire Elon Musk has described himself as “an ... idiot” for his handling of the PR disaster that followed from his tweet calling a British cave diver “pedo guy” in 2018.”

Thanks, that would seem to make sense.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/10/09/elon-musk-defamation-suit-reveals-he-overruled-staff-requests-to-stop-tweeting-about-british-cave-diver/#262f3bcd395d

So apparently ASoG is still operating on Zeno's Paradox time...it's always coming, but never actually arriving.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 10/10/2019 10:55 pm
So apparently ASoG is still operating on Zeno's Paradox time...it's always coming, but never actually arriving.

My guess is it made it to the drawing board, detailed design mostly complete and a builder appointed.. but construction was put on hold before any steel laid pending a decision on final requirements.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rcoppola on 10/10/2019 11:40 pm
Could have been redesigned to also be capable of Super Heavy returns which have been stated as returning to a Drone Ship while Starship returns to first, LZ-1 then 39A after a few LZ1 successes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 10/12/2019 10:40 pm
twitter.com/sausseimages/status/1183114756770746369

Quote
#JRTI update: now some work is being done!

All of the side deck plates have been removed. JRTI has been turned around. Looks like some stuff has been removed from the bow end (front). Cranes in the area and equipment on deck. Nobody's here today.

https://twitter.com/sausseimages/status/1183114815771992064
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alexphysics on 10/13/2019 12:12 am
Re OCISLY thrusters, IIRC someone in the know (Teslarati?) recently mentioned a thruster upgrade, but I can't find the post. Possibly these are the new thrusters going in.

They would have had to remove the thrusters (wings, thruster shrouds and anything else hanging off the side of the barge) to make the journey in any case, giving them a good opportunity to at least service the thrusters and give them a coat of paint.

From the photos posted it's impossible to tell whether these are upgraded ones or not.  We'll have to wait until either (a) someone confirms it or (b) the final install makes it obvious.

The post talked about OCISLY not JRTI which was the one that has done the journey from west to east and they had to remove the extensions.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 10/13/2019 11:01 pm
Re OCISLY thrusters, IIRC someone in the know (Teslarati?) recently mentioned a thruster upgrade, but I can't find the post. Possibly these are the new thrusters going in.

They would have had to remove the thrusters (wings, thruster shrouds and anything else hanging off the side of the barge) to make the journey in any case, giving them a good opportunity to at least service the thrusters and give them a coat of paint.

From the photos posted it's impossible to tell whether these are upgraded ones or not.  We'll have to wait until either (a) someone confirms it or (b) the final install makes it obvious.

The post talked about OCISLY not JRTI which was the one that has done the journey from west to east and they had to remove the extensions.

My bad.  Regardless, it wouldn't make any sense to swap out the thrusters on OCISLY but then re-install the smaller ones on JRTI, because the last thing they'd want is a fleet of ASDS's with different performance characteristics.

If they were planning to upgrade anything on JRTI, now is obviously the time to do it.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 10/18/2019 09:10 pm
https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1185297035496476672

Quote
Work on OCISLY continues.  Also the clover is half gone, I wonder if it will get repainted.  #SpaceX #SpaceXFleet #OCISLY

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1185179912224854017

Quote
There was a lot of activity on OCISLY yesterday. I imagine @octagrabber is overseeing maintenance ahead of what is sure to be a busy year's end.
#SpaceXFleet #OCISLY
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 10/20/2019 06:35 am
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1185691547544772609

Quote
Ooooo. Actually, using the hoist to hold the chain makes it easier to throw the line when they are out at sea. Bonus points for being able to bring the tug closer since the chain would be visible. Don't want to call Sea Tow way out there if you snag a line. #SpaceXFleet
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/03/2019 06:22 pm
https://twitter.com/sausseimages/status/1191066105600708608

Quote
Bi-weekly #JRTI visit: the deck looks clear. Wings have been moved around. The blue station-keeping thrusters make an appearance. Clover is still there. Are they close to being finished?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 11/04/2019 08:16 am
Any indication they have a second octograbber or at least the garange on each ASDS now?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/07/2019 07:02 pm
JRTI upgrades?

https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1192528510172225537

Quote
Meanwhile in Louisiana... 

An unverified source has sighted some exciting engine and thruster hardware arriving at the shipyard where Just Read the Instructions is being upgraded.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yokem55 on 11/07/2019 07:17 pm
JRTI upgrades?

https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1192528510172225537

Quote
Meanwhile in Louisiana... 

An unverified source has sighted some exciting engine and thruster hardware arriving at the shipyard where Just Read the Instructions is being upgraded.
Damn. Are they going to make the ASDS strictly self-propelled and forgo using a tug?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 11/07/2019 09:43 pm
Damn. Are they going to make the ASDS strictly self-propelled and forgo using a tug?

Not likely.. but that would give it some serious push!  :o

No matter what new hardware or upgrades they do to the ASDS fleet, just so long as they stick with the Marmac barges there are two things they simply cannot change:
1. Speed :  the time it takes to get out and back is set by the hull shape (design speed) of the barge - not the size of the thrusters.  Aside from burning excessive amounts of fuel, trying to go faster than designed would cause the nose to lift making it more unstable in both yaw and roll and putting more stress on the stuff on board.
2. Classification : A barge, even a self-propelled one, will always need a tug to escort it in and out.  Thems the rules.

AIUI, the reason they were considering increasing the size of the thrusters was for better station-keeping ability and perhaps less strain on the tow in strong winds/seas - not to get out and back any faster.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 11/07/2019 09:44 pm
I think the big thrusters are for active stabilization. No pitch and roll.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: harrystranger on 11/08/2019 12:32 am
Something a little different today when I was browsing for L2 content  :)

https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1192601171153838080?s
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 11/08/2019 01:19 am
JRTI upgrades?

https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1192528510172225537

Quote
Meanwhile in Louisiana... 

An unverified source has sighted some exciting engine and thruster hardware arriving at the shipyard where Just Read the Instructions is being upgraded.

Azipod is what it’s called, right?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 11/08/2019 04:54 am
Azipod is what it’s called, right?

That's a brand name, trademarked by ABB, but otherwise - yes, that's the general type.  This looks like a hydraulic one... and second-hand too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RoboGoofers on 11/08/2019 02:05 pm
Something a little different today when I was browsing for L2 content  :)

https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1192601171153838080?s
if you squint it kinda looks like a rocket staging event.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Apollo_11_first_stage_separation.jpg/512px-Apollo_11_first_stage_separation.jpg) (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Apollo_11_first_stage_separation.jpg)
Apollo 11 first stage separation (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Apollo_11_first_stage_separation.jpg)
NASA [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: niwax on 11/08/2019 02:49 pm
Something a little different today when I was browsing for L2 content  :)

https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1192601171153838080?s
if you squint it kinda looks like a rocket staging event.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Apollo_11_first_stage_separation.jpg/512px-Apollo_11_first_stage_separation.jpg) (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Apollo_11_first_stage_separation.jpg)
Apollo 11 first stage separation (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Apollo_11_first_stage_separation.jpg)
NASA [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons

Navier-Stokes says hello
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 11/17/2019 11:22 am
This large photocomposite of of B1048-4 on OCISLY (https://michaelseeley.prodibi.com/a/81qwjmol84qmje/i/1jq2zz90qojdz4r) shows some damage to at least one of the hydraulic power units for the thrusters. The forward-starboard unit (closest to camera) has obvious damage: the vent louvres are caved in, the hydraulic line mounts have been smashed free of the deck, and the pod is still submerged (others are raised to horizontal out of the water). The forward satellite link dome has also been smashed to smithereens. The aft-port thruster area has sustained similar damage to the hydraulic line mounts, but shots of OCISLY returning to port (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJanO-CXsAQ5Oxp?format=jpg&name=orig) show the thruster pod is out of the water and horizontal and the HPU appears undamaged.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/17/2019 03:12 pm
This large photocomposite of of B1048-4 on OCISLY (https://michaelseeley.prodibi.com/a/81qwjmol84qmje/i/1jq2zz90qojdz4r) shows some damage to at least one of the hydraulic power units for the thrusters. The forward-starboard unit (closest to camera) has obvious damage: the vent louvres are caved in, the hydraulic line mounts have been smashed free of the deck, and the pod is still submerged (others are raised to horizontal out of the water). The forward satellite link dome has also been smashed to smithereens. The aft-port thruster area has sustained similar damage to the hydraulic line mounts, but shots of OCISLY returning to port (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJanO-CXsAQ5Oxp?format=jpg&name=orig) show the thruster pod is out of the water and horizontal and the HPU appears undamaged.
OCISLY will be upgraded after JRTI.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 11/17/2019 03:43 pm
This large photocomposite of of B1048-4 on OCISLY (https://michaelseeley.prodibi.com/a/81qwjmol84qmje/i/1jq2zz90qojdz4r) shows some damage to at least one of the hydraulic power units for the thrusters. The forward-starboard unit (closest to camera) has obvious damage: the vent louvres are caved in, the hydraulic line mounts have been smashed free of the deck, and the pod is still submerged (others are raised to horizontal out of the water). The forward satellite link dome has also been smashed to smithereens. The aft-port thruster area has sustained similar damage to the hydraulic line mounts, but shots of OCISLY returning to port (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJanO-CXsAQ5Oxp?format=jpg&name=orig) show the thruster pod is out of the water and horizontal and the HPU appears undamaged.
The first image is showing the starboard side, the second one is the port side. Two different thrusters and air louvers.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 11/18/2019 08:32 am
This large photocomposite of of B1048-4 on OCISLY (https://michaelseeley.prodibi.com/a/81qwjmol84qmje/i/1jq2zz90qojdz4r) shows some damage to at least one of the hydraulic power units for the thrusters. The forward-starboard unit (closest to camera) has obvious damage: the vent louvres are caved in, the hydraulic line mounts have been smashed free of the deck, and the pod is still submerged (others are raised to horizontal out of the water). The forward satellite link dome has also been smashed to smithereens. The aft-port thruster area has sustained similar damage to the hydraulic line mounts, but shots of OCISLY returning to port (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJanO-CXsAQ5Oxp?format=jpg&name=orig) show the thruster pod is out of the water and horizontal and the HPU appears undamaged.
The first image is showing the starboard side, the second one is the port side. Two different thrusters and air louvers.
That is what I said, yes. Forward-starboard = damaged louvre, damaged line mount, thruster not fully stowed. Aft-port = damaged line mounts.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/24/2019 06:02 pm
https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1198665619589226501

Quote
Recovery technicians have repainted the SpaceX logo onto OCISLY!

Thanks to u/ Show_me_the_dV
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/01/2019 09:25 pm
https://twitter.com/sausseimages/status/1201261978444029952

Quote
#JRTI check: those new steering pods look serious. Didn't get as close as normal, people were actually there today working and didn't want any problems. Making up for holiday or looming deadline.

Also, deck wings are gone. Couldn't see them anywhere up and down the levee.

twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1201263569578471425

Quote
Just Read the Instructions update!

A huge surge of activity - the massive new thrusters are on the dock ready for install, the side wings have been reattached and there is equipment everywhere.

https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1201263821186314252

Quote
How big are the new thrusters? The old ones are sitting next to them for comparison...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 12/02/2019 01:17 am
Quote
#JRTI check: those new steering pods look serious. Didn't get as close as normal, people were actually there today working and didn't want any problems. Making up for holiday or looming deadline.

Also, deck wings are gone. Couldn't see them anywhere up and down the levee.

Well.. assuming they are indeed planning to fit these (and that's a pretty decent assumption) there's certainly no way they can mount them with the barge in the water.  Maybe they're removing as much as they can so they can take them somewhere for dry docking and fitout?  Annual hull survey is due.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Retired Downrange on 12/03/2019 08:53 pm
“Satellite launch contractor SpaceX will soon be using its own private AIS aids to navigation (ATON) to mark the temporary exclusion areas it uses during rocket launches at Cape Canaveral, Florida. It is the first official Coast Guard approval for a "dynamic" restricted area.”

https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/spacex-gets-its-own-ais-aids-to-navigation-markers
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SpacemanSpiffNOLA on 12/09/2019 04:06 am
Just went to check in on JRTI like I always do and it is gone. Some investigation by the folks on Twitter show that it may be getting to Florida tomorrow along with Alice C which also just left Louisiana in the last few days.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/09/2019 06:06 am
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1203847745003491328

Quote
Soooooooo @SausseImages just made my night! #JRTI is no longer at the docks and Tug Alice C is already on the Eastern Coast of Florida with a destination of Port Canaveral. I think we may be getting an extra special delivery very soon! #SpaceXFleet

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1203895056656150528

Quote
Rough estimate if Alice C keeps this pace is actually not much past expected. Maybe 5:00 am ET. Four cruise ships would take priority with last expected at 6:00 am. IF JRTI is in tow it would be after that to use pilot and tug services and closer to daylight. #SpaceXFleet #JRTI
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Draggendrop on 12/09/2019 07:55 am
I believe that those images are of pod thrusters which I have usually associated with port maneuvering. They are generally in a hull pocket as opposed to thru hull lateral thrusters.

These are huge and meant for a large ship. These may have been delivered to the dockyard for the next ship in the yard for refit.

I might have to "eat my hat"...but I doubt that one will see these on an ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/09/2019 01:13 pm
Will soon know what’s coming

https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1204032055388131334

Quote
Typical... As soon as I tweet it, a fresh position has been reported.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 12/09/2019 03:26 pm
First Visual, and it is indeed JRTI!!

https://twitter.com/John_Winkopp/status/1204058522578751494
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 12/09/2019 03:35 pm
Becoming clearer, welcome to your new home JRTI!

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1204074561077157890
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/09/2019 06:50 pm
According to current radio chatter I don't think the barge will be brought into port until tomorrow (Tuesday).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/10/2019 02:11 pm
https://twitter.com/spacecoast_stve/status/1204410349325312000

Quote
The twin fairing catchers are showing signs of movement. Hopefully, this will be when they make room for #JRTI. Contrary to my assumptions yesterday, there’s not enough room for JRTI if the twins stay parked there.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 12/10/2019 06:27 pm
Alice C is inbound at the Port Canaveral jetty.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/10/2019 06:41 pm
Live stream

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1204484059935600640

Quote
Just Read the Instructions is about to enter Port Canaveral. Enjoy the view with me! #SpaceXFleet #SpaceX #JRTI
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/10/2019 06:48 pm
https://twitter.com/johnkrausphotos/status/1204482655858888704

Quote
SpaceX’s “Just Read The Instructions” droneship is approaching Port Canaveral.

twitter.com/johnkrausphotos/status/1204486433781751813?s=21

Quote
Oh, hi there, Just Read The Instructions crew! Welcome to Port Canaveral 👋🏻

https://twitter.com/johnkrausphotos/status/1204486932664848384

Quote
A closeup look at the new thrusters being transported to Port Canaveral aboard JRTI.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/10/2019 07:00 pm
https://twitter.com/johnkrausphotos/status/1204489995446312960

Quote
Video: SpaceX’s Just Read The Instructions droneship passes by Jetty Park this afternoon on its way to the docks at @PortCanaveral
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/10/2019 07:07 pm
2020 is going to be quite a year for SpaceX

https://twitter.com/johnkrausphotos/status/1204490903882219522

Quote
Two SpaceX droneships are now at Port Canaveral!

Left, arriving: Just Read The Instructions

Right, docked: Of Course I Still Love You

So cool — a second droneship is needed at the Cape for a high launch cadence in 2020.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Captain Crutch on 12/10/2019 07:20 pm
JRTI seems to be riding higher is the water than OCISLY. Could it have been upgraded for a higher “payload capacity” for possible droneship landings of Starship? Obviously we can’t be sure but it definitely looks to be riding higher and it has more on the deck...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 12/10/2019 07:23 pm
JRTI seems to be riding higher is the water than OCISLY. Could the kids have been to upgrade the “payload capacity” for possible droneship landings of Starship? Obviously we can’t be sure but it definitely looks to be riding higher and it has more on the deck...

Less ballast for fastest transit time with load that can't tip.
When catching a booster you want no roll and pitch which means water ballast.

BTW this is a guess.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/10/2019 07:42 pm
https://twitter.com/nexthorizons_/status/1204496825501323266

Quote
Just Read The Instructions arrives in @PortCanaveral! We now have 2 East Coast droneships! You can see lots of stuff on the deck, including 6 new massive thrusters for station keeping. #JRTI #SpaceXFleet
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 12/10/2019 10:55 pm
JRTI seems to be riding higher is the water than OCISLY. Could the kids have been to upgrade the “payload capacity” for possible droneship landings of Starship? Obviously we can’t be sure but it definitely looks to be riding higher and it has more on the deck...

Less ballast for fastest transit time with load that can't tip.
When catching a booster you want no roll and pitch which means water ballast.

BTW this is a guess.

  It's a formula that includes current and sea height, frequency, speed and direction. Ballast is handy, but too much and you get waves over the deck, which would probably be bad. In this case, the barge sliding could be a bigger concern than tilting. You can get some pretty good horizontal acceleration in the right conditions.
 Wind, current and seas can come from three different directions. Add course and speed of the ship and variables can make ballast a lot more complicated than most people would believe. Even baffles or lack of in the tanks make a difference.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lar on 12/11/2019 12:11 am
https://twitter.com/nexthorizons_/status/1204496825501323266

Quote
Just Read The Instructions arrives in @PortCanaveral! We now have 2 East Coast droneships! You can see lots of stuff on the deck, including 6 new massive thrusters for station keeping. #JRTI #SpaceXFleet
Those are some serious thrusters! But why 6 rather than 4 or 8 ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 12/11/2019 12:22 am
Wow this thread is long! Over the holidays I'll start new threads for these monsters.

Meanwhile:

ARTICLE: SpaceX’s Just Read the Instructions droneship arrives in Florida following upgrades -

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2019/12/spacexs-jrti-droneship-arrives-florida-upgrades/

- By Michael Baylor

https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1204571303690285056
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SpacemanSpiffNOLA on 12/11/2019 02:12 am
JRTI seems to be riding higher is the water than OCISLY. Could it have been upgraded for a higher “payload capacity” for possible droneship landings of Starship? Obviously we can’t be sure but it definitely looks to be riding higher and it has more on the deck...

JRTI was sitting that high since I first found her in Louisiana.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: harrystranger on 12/11/2019 04:58 am
I thought I'd share these images of JRTI  :)

https://twitter.com/HarryStrangerPG/status/1204260361068675077?s

https://twitter.com/HarryStrangerPG/status/1204547591720984576?s
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FlattestEarth on 12/11/2019 09:06 am
Interested to see how they are going to mount those new thrusters
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 12/11/2019 03:09 pm
Interested to see how they are going to mount those new thrusters
.. and to what ...   They seem very large, and are of the wrong count, for the current barges.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/11/2019 03:18 pm
Maybe for the BFASDS...?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 12/11/2019 03:29 pm
Maybe for the BFASDS...?
Shrug.  Other than a name we have no information about it...

I'm just observing that these thrusters look too large and there are too many of them for the current barges.

It's SpaceX...  Who knows
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: smisamore on 12/11/2019 03:49 pm
Interested to see how they are going to mount those new thrusters
.. and to what ...   They seem very large, and are of the wrong count, for the current barges.

This would seem to indicate that the BFASDS will probably be hexagonal, right???

(Sorry Chris, I know this isn't the party thread, but I couldn't help myself  :-\)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 12/11/2019 04:19 pm
Interested to see how they are going to mount those new thrusters
.. and to what ...   They seem very large, and are of the wrong count, for the current barges.

Nice idea, worth to speculate. Indeed we know that SpaceX use the existing fleet assets to move other company items around. (Also the generators/containers on board seems to be much more than required)

But for the thrusters: JRTI now lacks the usual blue ones, so if these bigger ones are for other purpose, they need the old ones back. Where are those? If I recall correctly there was a breakdown and swapping thrusters between barges story half a year maybe?

Edit: fixed quote.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 12/11/2019 05:31 pm
Interested to see how they are going to mount those new thrusters
.. and to what ...   They seem very large, and are of the wrong count, for the current barges.

Nice idea, worth to speculate. Indeed we know that SpaceX use the existing fleet assets to move other company items around. (Also the generators/containers on board seems to be much more than required)

But for the thrusters: JRTI now lacks the usual blue ones, so if these bigger ones are for other purpose, they need the old ones back. Where are those? If I recall correctly there was a breakdown and swapping thrusters between barges story half a year maybe?

Edit: fixed quote.

Good point..

But:  can these new ones even fit?  They look like the attachment scheme is completely different...  Instead of "overboard", they look like "through the floor" (I should probably say hull instead of floor)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: BunkerTheHusky on 12/11/2019 06:04 pm
6 Thrusters. 2 for OCISLY, 2 for JRTI, and 2 for ASoG?  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 12/11/2019 06:25 pm

But:  can these new ones even fit?  They look like the attachment scheme is completely different...  Instead of "overboard", they look like "through the floor" (I should probably say hull instead of floor)

I agree. Seems something to be mounted on the bottom of something. And also looks assymetrical: so not anywhere but to a curved/angled bottom.

And also, can you mount something like this while the vessel is afloat? Isnt that something requiring a drydock?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: acsawdey on 12/11/2019 06:38 pm

But:  can these new ones even fit?  They look like the attachment scheme is completely different...  Instead of "overboard", they look like "through the floor" (I should probably say hull instead of floor)

I agree. Seems something to be mounted on the bottom of something. And also looks assymetrical: so not anywhere but to a curved/angled bottom.

And also, can you mount something like this while the vessel is afloat? Isnt that something requiring a drydock?

Could a pod be fabricated that one of these thrusters can be mounted in, which is then mounted to a corner of the ASDS? For extra credit, could it be made to tip up so you can get the thruster out of the water when the ASDS is under tow? Seems like a rectangular structure with a sloped bottom could be attached at the corner where the blue thrusters were.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 12/11/2019 07:01 pm
...

Could a pod be fabricated that one of these thrusters can be mounted in, which is then mounted to a corner of the ASDS? For extra credit, could it be made to tip up so you can get the thruster out of the water when the ASDS is under tow? Seems like a rectangular structure with a sloped bottom could be attached at the corner where the blue thrusters were.

Could be. But the blue ones had only a sleek neck going to and under water. What you describe is a much more robust thing to achieve the same. I dont see the point.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cppetrie on 12/11/2019 08:24 pm
...

Could a pod be fabricated that one of these thrusters can be mounted in, which is then mounted to a corner of the ASDS? For extra credit, could it be made to tip up so you can get the thruster out of the water when the ASDS is under tow? Seems like a rectangular structure with a sloped bottom could be attached at the corner where the blue thrusters were.

Could be. But the blue ones had only a sleek neck going to and under water. What you describe is a much more robust thing to achieve the same. I dont see the point.
Bigger thruster might mean greater ability to station-keep in broader set of sea conditions adding recovery opportunities that would not otherwise exist. Maybe they will also use the thruster to improve transit speeds to and from recovery sites? Don’t know if they are already limited in speed by hull shape, etc. maybe they are. But if limiting factor is tow capacity then bigger pods might mean quicker transits.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 12/11/2019 09:49 pm
...

Could a pod be fabricated that one of these thrusters can be mounted in, which is then mounted to a corner of the ASDS? For extra credit, could it be made to tip up so you can get the thruster out of the water when the ASDS is under tow? Seems like a rectangular structure with a sloped bottom could be attached at the corner where the blue thrusters were.

Could be. But the blue ones had only a sleek neck going to and under water. What you describe is a much more robust thing to achieve the same. I dont see the point.

If anything, I can envision a thick shelf added outboard, to which these things are attached.  The shelf itself is hinged so can swing upwards.

But - since the upper part of the thruster has to stow, and since there's a lot of forces involved, that shelf is starting to look more like an entire outboard compartment, and at that point it loses whatever appeal it originally had.

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 12/12/2019 08:32 am
Lotsa speculation here, most of which is unnecessary IMO.



My advice: grab some popcorn, sit back and enjoy the show when SpaceX starts applying those thruster pods to some ship in the SpaceX fleet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: HVM on 12/12/2019 10:39 am
I try to indentify those thruster pods just by image search but in vain, there is just too many steerable thruster manufactures, +models and custom builds, -for layman. I guess they are still from Thrustmaster but beefier versions, or they are from Wärtsilä like the station keeping service is; both hardware and software.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/12/2019 10:45 am
I’ve got a pair of these on my boat, but I _think_ they’re not as big...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Draggendrop on 12/12/2019 12:06 pm
The image that you have shown is a primary drive for your vessel. These are counter-rotating lower units in a steerage locker. Two blades on one lower unit with counter rotating drive shafts, one inside the other and the inner shaft extended. The counter rotating blades are to reduce one-sided torque output. If you are older, you may remember the twin inboard/outboard units (Mercruiser and Volvo,  are examples) that had one left hand drive and a right hand drive..to counter each other and reduce tendencies of a hull to pull continuously to one side...effect is still present at certain operational rpms, but drastically reduced with counter rotating units...which one can now use as a single installation.

Permanent mounted "pod" thrusters are not usually commercial primary drives outside of tug boat use...but purpose specific...an example is port operations like docking...or station keeping for precision working requirements.

As mentioned above, there are a large number of variations but temporary use thrusters have common themes for homes...one that allows the unit to be dropped for use...and pulled up for hull fluid dynamics, where upon the main drive train commences propulsion.

The intended use for these units may require patience. The "blue thrusters" may have been taken off for transit and are in the deck containers along with the generators....which brings up another matter...the power units for these larger thrusters will be more demanding.

I have broken out the popcorn...it may be awhile but the attention these units have gotten online...may even get a twitter response.

my 2 cents...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 12/12/2019 02:38 pm
I try to indentify those thruster pods just by image search but in vain, there is just too many steerable thruster manufactures, +models and custom builds, -for layman. I guess they are still from Thrustmaster but beefier versions, or they are from Wärtsilä like the station keeping service is; both hardware and software.

What about these: http://www.cqhisea.com/m/productshow.php?cid=125&id=1012
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 12/12/2019 03:23 pm
How about roll and pitch control.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SteveU on 12/12/2019 03:46 pm
I try to indentify those thruster pods just by image search but in vain, there is just too many steerable thruster manufactures, +models and custom builds, -for layman. I guess they are still from Thrustmaster but beefier versions, or they are from Wärtsilä like the station keeping service is; both hardware and software.

What about these: http://www.cqhisea.com/m/productshow.php?cid=125&id=1012

Reading the cut-sheet -  these would make JRTI self propelled.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 12/12/2019 07:25 pm
I try to indentify those thruster pods just by image search but in vain, there is just too many steerable thruster manufactures, +models and custom builds, -for layman. I guess they are still from Thrustmaster but beefier versions, or they are from Wärtsilä like the station keeping service is; both hardware and software.

What about these: http://www.cqhisea.com/m/productshow.php?cid=125&id=1012

Reading the cut-sheet -  these would make JRTI self propelled.
Only in reality. In the universe of legal hoohaw an autonomous, self propelled ship would be a lot more complicated.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: HVM on 12/12/2019 07:57 pm
Reading the cut-sheet -  these would make JRTI self propelled.
Only in reality. In the universe of legal hoohaw an antonymous, self propelled ship would be a lot more complicated.
Self propelled not necessary mean antonymous, more like remote controlled.

SpaceX and Wärtsilä:
https://metropolitan.fi/entry/wartsila-spacex-tesla-collaboration (https://metropolitan.fi/entry/wartsila-spacex-tesla-collaboration)
"Wärtsilä employees and technology ensure that the floating platforms are placed at precisely at the right location during launches. Operator are monitoring and controlling the platform remotely, in using a method known as Dynamic Positioning."

Automated shipping:
https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/28-11-2018-wartsila-achieves-notable-advances-in-automated-shipping-with-latest-successful-tests-2332144 (https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/28-11-2018-wartsila-achieves-notable-advances-in-automated-shipping-with-latest-successful-tests-2332144)
"Wärtsilä achieves notable advances in automated shipping with latest successful tests"

Those Z-drives are quite large...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 12/12/2019 09:29 pm
I try to indentify those thruster pods just by image search but in vain, there is just too many steerable thruster manufactures, +models and custom builds, -for layman. I guess they are still from Thrustmaster but beefier versions, or they are from Wärtsilä like the station keeping service is; both hardware and software.

What about these: http://www.cqhisea.com/m/productshow.php?cid=125&id=1012

That's impressive.. well done!! ;D  Who woulda thought Elon would pick an electric thruster?!?? :o {head smack}

The largest unit they have (which appears to fit the prop size above) is their RP1950 which weighs 16.5 tonnes and requires a 1650kW generator to drive it - which is a mighty big unit (eg. A Caterpillar CM20 is around 24' long and 6' wide).  Assuming they stay with the previous one thruster/one power pack configuration (no point complicating things with high-current switchboards), the high voltage cabling for these babies is going to require some serious installation work!

.and a bit of re-classification on the side.
   
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 12/12/2019 09:53 pm
6 Thrusters. 2 for OCISLY, 2 for JRTI, and 2 for ASoG?  ;D

That would be my guess. (2 for OCISLY and 2 for JRTI anyways) :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 12/12/2019 10:20 pm
6 Thrusters. 2 for OCISLY, 2 for JRTI, and 2 for ASoG?  ;D

That would be my guess. (2 for OCISLY and 2 for JRTI anyways) :)

They have 12 generator units on board while only 6 thrusters. If they stick with the one by one scheme you proposed above, it is 6 more thrusters unseen.
Most probably already under JRTI, since these units may need a drydock/shipyard to mount, and JRTI just have arrived from one.

So this 6 is for OCISLY with 6 of the containers.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: smisamore on 12/13/2019 04:32 am
6 Thrusters. 2 for OCISLY, 2 for JRTI, and 2 for ASoG?  ;D

That would be my guess. (2 for OCISLY and 2 for JRTI anyways) :)

They have 12 generator units on board while only 6 thrusters. If they stick with the one by one scheme you proposed above, it is 6 more thrusters unseen.
Most probably already under JRTI, since these units may need a drydock/shipyard to mount, and JRTI just have arrived from one.

So this 6 is for OCISLY with 6 of the containers.

That sure sounds like a good theory.

It looks to me like there are 3 of those tan generators already installed up in the equipment area between the bow wave barrier and the rocket exhaust deflector, but I don't see any installed in the stern area. In fact, it appears there is hardly anything in that stern equipment area yet. I'm also wondering if maybe that's why she came in with such obviously minimal ballast, so as to allow the "mega-thrusters" more draft clearance.

It will be interesting to watch this latest "mystery" unfold.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 12/13/2019 05:45 am
It looks to me like there are 3 of those tan generators already installed up in the equipment area between the bow wave barrier and the rocket exhaust deflector, but I don't see any installed in the stern area. In fact, it appears there is hardly anything in that stern equipment area yet. I'm also wondering if maybe that's why she came in with such obviously minimal ballast, so as to allow the "mega-thrusters" more draft clearance.

Lessee... 16.5t for each thruster and ~30t worth of generator to power it.  If there's two of these installed somewhere already, that's 93 tonnes down one end ...with "minimal ballast" up the other?!?

If any of these babies were already installed, methinks it'd be fairly obvious.

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: smisamore on 12/13/2019 09:53 pm
It looks to me like there are 3 of those tan generators already installed up in the equipment area between the bow wave barrier and the rocket exhaust deflector, but I don't see any installed in the stern area. In fact, it appears there is hardly anything in that stern equipment area yet. I'm also wondering if maybe that's why she came in with such obviously minimal ballast, so as to allow the "mega-thrusters" more draft clearance.

Lessee... 16.5t for each thruster and ~30t worth of generator to power it.  If there's two of these installed somewhere already, that's 93 tonnes down one end ...with "minimal ballast" up the other?!?

If any of these babies were already installed, methinks it'd be fairly obvious.
Actually, if I understood Mr. Enbandi's post correctly, he was proposing that 6 of these fellows might already be installed under JRTI, which I found to be an interesting theory (as I stated). What the configuration of that installation might be... 3 port, 3 starboard, or 3 fwd, 3 aft... or none at all, is just fun stuff to contemplate ;D.

From the pictures that were available to us, it looked to me like there are 3 generators up on the bow that appear to have wiring coming off of them, hence my thinking that they might actually be installed vs. just stowed there for the transit. If true, this would lend some credence to Mr. Enbandi's theory. I certainly could be wrong...that tends to be the case more times than not ;). That's why I usually just read this stuff, learn tons of new things, and keep my thoughts to myself.

BTW, based on your numbers, there's 99 tons of thrusters and 360 tons of generators we can confirm are sitting on JRTI's deck (with maybe another 99 tons dangling from the bottom), and she's still riding very high in the water. I'm not knowledgeable at all on how much water they can move around inside a Marmac 303, but counter ballasting to maintain zero pitch and list angles does not appear to be an issue.

Totally off subject... My Dad was stationed on a submarine tender in Melbourne (and Perth for a time as well) during WWII. He loved it there! If fate hadn't intervened, we might have been countrymen...or maybe even neighbors!

Best wishes!!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Draggendrop on 01/04/2020 09:21 pm
https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1213528017248481280 (https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1213528017248481280)

Presenting the Class of 2020. #SpaceXFleet
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: erv on 01/05/2020 04:49 pm
I have always wanted to ask - what does the "GO" in many of SX's ship names mean?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ken the Bin on 01/05/2020 04:57 pm
I have always wanted to ask - what does the "GO" in many of SX's ship names mean?

It represents the company that actually owns the ships: Guice Offshore.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ValmirGP on 01/05/2020 04:57 pm
Guice offshore
guiceoffshore.com
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 01/05/2020 04:57 pm
Cool post to see the whole Navy in 1 mosaic.

What’s missing is a new, self propelled landing ship.  Would be great for FH core landings and someday catching SH downrange.

Edit:  I just think the improved payload to orbit is too much to pass up.   
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: erv on 01/05/2020 05:27 pm
I have always wanted to ask - what does the "GO" in many of SX's ship names mean?

It represents the company that actually owns the ships: Guice Offshore.

Guice offshore
guiceoffshore.com

Thanks! Its that simple. I was thinking its something similar to USS / HMS / whatever :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 01/13/2020 08:30 pm
https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1216831799181086721

Quote
Newly arrived GO Pursuit and her cargo.  #SpaceXFleet #SpaceX #GOPursuit @SpaceXFleet

https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1216833523132379136

Quote
6 have already been delivered. This makes 8. 4 per droneship I would assume.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rkit3 on 01/20/2020 10:44 pm
Anyone want to theorize about what these not-tubes are for? Pics taken Jan 18th and 19th 2020.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rcoppola on 01/20/2020 11:11 pm
A kind of housing for the top of the new thruster pods?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 01/21/2020 01:26 am
Anyone want to theorize about what these not-tubes are for? Pics taken Jan 18th and 19th 2020.
A kind of housing for the top of the new thruster pods?
The thruster mounting locations appear to be located where the new redish steel is on the sides of the barge. Spacing is equidistant on both side. They may be recessed under the decking to completely protect the thrusters. Preparation work is likely in the early phase in terms of the mounting locations.
Reference the first 2 photos.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 01/22/2020 10:17 pm
The thruster mounting locations appear to be located where the new redish steel is on the sides of the barge. Spacing is equidistant on both side. They may be recessed under the decking to completely protect the thrusters. Preparation work is likely in the early phase in terms of the mounting locations.
Reference the first 2 photos.

The "new reddish steel" marks the spot the old thruster support and anti-F9 protection mounts were.  Azipods are designed to be mounted on the bottom of the hull (ie. underwater) and, once installed, the only evidence visible above water would be the presence of the generators and fuel tanks on deck.

Disclaimer:  Of course, Elon might have something completely unconventional planned.  He often does.  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SDSmith on 01/22/2020 11:12 pm
The thruster mounting locations appear to be located where the new redish steel is on the sides of the barge. Spacing is equidistant on both side. They may be recessed under the decking to completely protect the thrusters. Preparation work is likely in the early phase in terms of the mounting locations.
Reference the first 2 photos.

The "new reddish steel" marks the spot the old thruster support and anti-F9 protection mounts were.  Azipods are designed to be mounted on the bottom of the hull (ie. underwater) and, once installed, the only evidence visible above water would be the presence of the generators and fuel tanks on deck.

Disclaimer:  Of course, Elon might have something completely unconventional planned.  He often does.  8)
To me the next question is will SpaceX install the new drives dockside? Or will they go to a shipyard to install?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Doesitfloat on 01/23/2020 02:18 am
They will do it at the dock.  Remove ballast water, barge will rise to height they can be installed at the dock. Install 2 Thruster housings. Turn barge around and install the other side.  Re ballast to nominal waterline.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: smisamore on 01/23/2020 04:29 am
The thruster mounting locations appear to be located where the new redish steel is on the sides of the barge. Spacing is equidistant on both side. They may be recessed under the decking to completely protect the thrusters. Preparation work is likely in the early phase in terms of the mounting locations.
Reference the first 2 photos.

The "new reddish steel" marks the spot the old thruster support and anti-F9 protection mounts were.  Azipods are designed to be mounted on the bottom of the hull (ie. underwater) and, once installed, the only evidence visible above water would be the presence of the generators and fuel tanks on deck.

Disclaimer:  Of course, Elon might have something completely unconventional planned.  He often does.  8)

Now that we've seen a total of 8 high and dry mega-thrusters, the "6 already installed on JRTI, 6 for OCISLY" theory from a few weeks ago does lose some of it's luster. Darn it, I thought that was kind of fun. ;D

Of course, that still leaves us with the question of why 12 generators? Which is what lead to the 6 per ASDS theory in the first place. The mystery continues to unfold...

I guess we need to keep an eye out for another quartet of those thruster mounting tube thingies, huh?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 01/23/2020 04:36 am
They will do it at the dock.  Remove ballast water, barge will rise to height they can be installed at the dock. Install 2 Thruster housings. Turn barge around and install the other side.  Re ballast to nominal waterline.

Hmm.. Given (a) the need to install them below LWL and (b) these things weigh 16 tons or thereabouts, the barge would likely end up on the bottom.

FWIW, I've only ever seen Azipods installed in dry-dock ..but then I've never seen them installed on a barge before, so that's a first.  Maybe they'll use the Big Yellow Crane to lift the entire ASDS out of the water?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: groknull on 01/23/2020 06:29 am
Of course, that still leaves us with the question of why 12 generators? Which is what lead to the 6 per ASDS theory in the first place. The mystery continues to unfold...

Redundancy?

How about four sets of two plus one spare at each corner?  4 x (2 + 1)

Per the thruster specs referenced in enbandi's post (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg2024727#msg2024727) upthread, the largest of the type is rated at 1650kW max input power.  1000kW or 1500kW might be good genset sizes.  2 or 3 MW (plus spares) per corner would easily handle the thruster power requirements plus additional "house" (electronics, pumps, winches, and especially AC) power needs.

The actual genset sizes and quantities at each corner may be dictated by available space as well as power needs.

Or (since this is SpaceX we are talking about), it could be completely different.  Some of those gensets might be for other ASDSs.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Doesitfloat on 01/23/2020 02:06 pm
They will do it at the dock.  Remove ballast water, barge will rise to height they can be installed at the dock. Install 2 Thruster housings. Turn barge around and install the other side.  Re ballast to nominal waterline.

Hmm.. Given (a) the need to install them below LWL and (b) these things weigh 16 tons or thereabouts, the barge would likely end up on the bottom.

FWIW, I've only ever seen Azipods installed in dry-dock ..but then I've never seen them installed on a barge before, so that's a first.  Maybe they'll use the Big Yellow Crane to lift the entire ASDS out of the water?
They can't be installed under the Barge.  The Barge is still classed as a Deck Barge.  That means all cargo, fuel, and machinery go on deck.  They can't install propulsion in the ballast tanks. They have to go on the outside to keep the benefits of being classed as a Deck Barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 01/23/2020 02:56 pm
....
They can't be installed under the Barge.  The Barge is still classed as a Deck Barge.  That means all cargo, fuel, and machinery go on deck.  They can't install propulsion in the ballast tanks. They have to go on the outside to keep the benefits of being classed as a Deck Barge.

So the curved housings go to the sides (bit like a quadcopter), near the water level, and the thrusters will be installed to their bottom. In that way it can be done dockside (with some ballast manipulation).
This was my first guess based on the shape of the housings, but from engineering point of view it doesn't made much sense (widening the hull in that weird way). But vessel classification issues can make a strong argument.

Pure speculation, but to make such a system more usable, they may install the housing with some vertical alignment/lifting system, to retract them from water while on journey.



Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 01/23/2020 04:15 pm
Is it possible with the number and power of these thrusters that the asds will be self propelled? And maybe faster than the towing?

Anybody got any specs comparing the thrust of these new ones versus the old ones?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 01/23/2020 09:42 pm
They can't be installed under the Barge.  The Barge is still classed as a Deck Barge.  That means all cargo, fuel, and machinery go on deck.  They can't install propulsion in the ballast tanks. They have to go on the outside to keep the benefits of being classed as a Deck Barge.

That's not correct.  Both JRTI and OCISLY are classed "A1, Barge" by ABS and the only requirements in the Barge Rules for a Deck Cargo barge are around construction of the deck and support structure to ensure it can handle the loads being dumped on it (eg. timber).  That's one of the reasons SpX chose these particular vessels.  Propulsion is permitted but only for "station keeping" - otherwise it's not a "barge" it's a "ship" and a whole other set of Rules apply.

https://ww2.eagle.org/en/rules-and-resources/rules-and-guides.html



Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SailingDuck on 01/24/2020 11:47 am
Found this jackup barge where the thrusters are mounted on the side. Maybe the 'tubes' are for a similar system.

https://www.jackupbarge.com/dp2/

That being said, this barge made me wonder if ASOG could be a jackup barge for rough sea landings?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 01/24/2020 12:05 pm
Found this jackup barge where the thrusters are mounted on the side. Maybe the 'tubes' are for a similar system.

https://www.jackupbarge.com/dp2/

That being said, this barge made me wonder if ASOG could be a jackup barge for rough sea landings?
Depth at past ASDS sites has easily been 1-4km, not suitable for a jackup.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 01/25/2020 03:56 pm
Depth at past ASDS sites has easily been 1-4km, not suitable for a jackup.

What about 30km out from the cape? As a temporary landing platform for Starship and Superheavy until they have approval for land landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 01/25/2020 05:11 pm
Found this jackup barge where the thrusters are mounted on the side. Maybe the 'tubes' are for a similar system.

https://www.jackupbarge.com/dp2/ (https://www.jackupbarge.com/dp2/)

That being said, this barge made me wonder if ASOG could be a jackup barge for rough sea landings?
Depth at past ASDS sites has easily been 1-4km, not suitable for a jackup.
Er, I don't think SailingDuck is suggesting they're going to jack up the ASDS, rather he's pointing out that the thrusters are probably going to be mounted to the outsides of the hull in the steel housings that have recently shown up (which is my supposition as well) in the same manner as the jack-up barge he referenced...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: LandingZone-1 on 02/01/2020 06:00 pm
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1223622438765899776 (https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1223622438765899776)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/01/2020 06:23 pm
https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1223682176681558017

Quote
Remember the mystery of the crane a few months back?  Well it had a wire running from it to Hawk's tow chain during today's booster return.  Not sure exactly why, maybe to pull the chain up after disconnecting from hawk.  twitter.com/spacecoast_stv…
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 02/08/2020 04:15 pm
Based on this (chechk photos carefully on the right of the stand), 4 of the new thruster pods are in the LZ1.

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1226163458120601600

Quote
The things you see when you are riding the ocean waves. The view of @SpaceX LZ-1 revealed something is afoot. It appears that there may be a new and improved test stand located north of LZ-2 near the coast. Perhaps Merlin and Raptor tests will happen here?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yokem55 on 02/08/2020 05:30 pm
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1226209390946127874?s=19

I wonder if there was a gnarly liquid oxygen spill on the deck and 'burned' a hole through the steel.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: frederickm17 on 02/08/2020 06:05 pm
Has there been any discussion on whether the new thrusters could be for ASOG?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 02/08/2020 07:00 pm
Has there been any discussion on whether the new thrusters could be for ASOG?

Lots of discussions, most of it ended with the usual there is no evidence ASOG exists. Plus they started work a couple hours ago to add them to JRTI.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CJ on 02/08/2020 09:55 pm
Has there been any discussion on whether the new thrusters could be for ASOG?

Lots of discussions, most of it ended with the usual there is no evidence ASOG exists. Plus they started work a couple hours ago to add them to JRTI.

My personal guess is that A Shortfall of Gravitas is currently a Shortfall of Existence.  :D

I do wonder, though, what's going to happen at Vandenburg now that JRTI seems to be east coast based. My guess for that is that the coming Vandy launches are in the RTLS range, so not a problem. But these are only guesses on my part.

My further guess is that what they plan on for JRTI will be indicated by whether or not it gets an Octograbber garage. If it does not, my guess is they plan on using JRTI mostly for for Starship tests. (although, having an Octograbber garage would not preclude the latter...)
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/09/2020 04:42 pm
https://twitter.com/gregscott_photo/status/1226554440657854465

Quote
SPACEX FLEET: #SpaceX new Drone ship JRTI is getting a retrofit presumably for the mounting of the huge new thrusters that just arrived. In the bottom 2 pics are some up close pics I took of Octagrabber getting some sun on OCISLY. #NASA #Space #spacexfleet
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 02/09/2020 09:00 pm
Quote
SPACEX FLEET: #SpaceX new Drone ship JRTI is getting a retrofit presumably for the mounting of the huge new thrusters that just arrived.

Makes sense..  It's not the way they're designed to be installed, but it does mean 'ol Marmac 303 and it's classifications and certifications remain intact.

It'll be interesting to watch progress with this one and see how well it works for them out on the open ocean. :)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DistantTemple on 02/09/2020 09:12 pm
https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1223682176681558017

Quote
Remember the mystery of the crane a few months back?  Well it had a wire running from it to Hawk's tow chain during today's booster return.  Not sure exactly why, maybe to pull the chain up after disconnecting from hawk.  twitter.com/spacecoast_stv…

I wonder if it is an experiment at using an underwater "parachute" or "sea anchor" (ie a big cloth bag) for stability control. The idea is that the waves only perturb the surface, and if you can "grab" the still water deeper down you can borrow its stability.

Alternatively  - it could be a drogue, to stop OCISLY rushing forward, (whils under tow) slackening the towline, and then slewing sideways, or snubbing as the towline comes taught again.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: HVM on 02/09/2020 09:26 pm
https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1223682176681558017

Quote
Remember the mystery of the crane a few months back?  Well it had a wire running from it to Hawk's tow chain during today's booster return.  Not sure exactly why, maybe to pull the chain up after disconnecting from hawk.  twitter.com/spacecoast_stv…

I wonder if it is an experiment at using an underwater "parachute" or "sea anchor" (ie a big cloth bag) for stability control. The idea is that the waves only perturb the surface, and if you can "grab" the still water deeper down you can borrow its stability.

Alternatively  - it could be a drogue, to stop OCISLY rushing forward, (whils under tow) slackening the towline, and then slewing sideways, or snubbing as the towline comes taught again.
http://ec91087859.sell.everychina.com/p-104154268-offshore-crane-davit-load-test-water-weight-bags.html (http://ec91087859.sell.everychina.com/p-104154268-offshore-crane-davit-load-test-water-weight-bags.html)

That is a load test water weight bag -someone pointed that out in a tweet thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/11/2020 10:14 pm
twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1227356843913158658

Quote
Photos from earlier today, just before OCISLY departed Port Canaveral.

Recovery technicians had time to repaint the SpaceX logo onto the landing deck of OCISLY. 😊 You can also see the fairing catchers preparing and the ongoing work to JRTI.

https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1227359281638494208

Quote
Bonus: This looks suspiciously like the construction of a garage for an Octagrabber for JRTI... The robot parts have been seen around Port Canaveral.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FlattestEarth on 02/21/2020 09:56 pm
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1230563063092301827

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1230862871799701510
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/24/2020 12:30 pm
https://twitter.com/gregscott_photo/status/1231933336240607233

Quote
Progress continues on the thruster tubes on JRTI. While consistent, it does not appear to be rushed. The size of these tubes are massive & conventional wisdom would assume they will be mounted on the 4 corners of the boat. Updates to follow. #SpaceX #Space #Science #SpaceXFleet
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: LandingZone-1 on 02/28/2020 12:18 am
Rough comparison of the old and new thrusters.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cygnusx112 on 03/07/2020 08:11 pm
A couple of shots of work happening on JRTI.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 03/11/2020 01:03 am
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-new-rocket-recovery-robot-drone-ship-upgrades/

Autonomous port to port capability with a robotic Octograbber would be a heck of a statement and could really improve their cycle times and massively reduce recovery costs
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 03/11/2020 11:24 am
The frames the thruster-mounts/cylinders/tube-thingies are mounted to have me perplexed. They're high enough to make work on them unnecessarily inconvenient if their only purpose was to allow access to the inside, but if they are intended to be permanent features (and used to mount to the underside of JRTI) they would extend far down enough for clearance to be an issue: measuring from the ISO containers on deck the mounts look to top out about 9.7m tall, leaving only ~3.3m clearance to the bottom of Port Canaveral for the thrusters to protrude. HVM measured the ring diameter alone as 3.14m, so that's a very small margin to avoid grounding out. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 03/11/2020 12:11 pm
My guess is that the tunnels are something like spudwells, since they look close to the overall thickness of the barge.  They would form a watertight opening through the hull, with the thrusters then being mounted on the bottom flush with the keel.  This way they would have easy access to the thruster machinery through a hatch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Asteroza on 03/11/2020 11:35 pm
I thought the tunnels would be fitted into the 4 notches formed by the wings being shorter lengthwise than barge itself. When stuffed into the notches, the overall barge gets back to a mostly rectangular configuration (with a little rounding at the new corners). They end up being just another thing that needs to be detached when doing a panama canal transit.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/12/2020 01:52 am
I thought the tunnels would be fitted into the 4 notches formed by the wings being shorter lengthwise than barge itself. When stuffed into the notches, the overall barge gets back to a mostly rectangular configuration (with a little rounding at the new corners). They end up being just another thing that needs to be detached when doing a panama canal transit.

Because SpX cannot significantly modify a classified vessel they don't own (by cutting holes in the bottom, etc.) lest they sink under the weight of their own paper-work, that was my impression also.  Supporting this, you can see what look to be capped-off conduits of some kind (the power cables perhaps?) protruding out of the wings, ready to be connected when the "tunnels" are in place.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/12/2020 03:35 am
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-new-rocket-recovery-robot-drone-ship-upgrades/

Autonomous port to port capability with a robotic Octograbber would be a heck of a statement and could really improve their cycle times and massively reduce recovery costs

Without upgrades to the Canaveral Port Authority of equal or greater magnitude, that ain't ever going to happen.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 03/12/2020 12:50 pm
The biggest gain will be not needing extra tugs for towing and spending multi days to get from LZ to port entrance. Also I would expect the speed of travel will be faster because towing limits speed.

disclamer: I captain kayaks. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/12/2020 09:13 pm
The biggest gain will be not needing extra tugs for towing and spending multi days to get from LZ to port entrance. Also I would expect the speed of travel will be faster because towing limits speed.

Sure, but as pointed out last page, both JRTI and OCISLY are currently classed as barges and on barges propulsion is permitted only for "station keeping" - otherwise it's not a "barge" it's a "ship" and a whole other set of Rules apply... so at least one tug is still required.

EDIT:  If they really are mounting these new thrusters the way I think they are, there would be excessive amounts of drag trying to tow without the thrusters operating.  Maybe they'll run the thrusters for the entire journey (a self-propelled barge) and use the tug more as close escort/guidance via the tow-line rather than actually towing?  I would not have thought that would gain them more than a knot or two in speed, but I guess we'll see in time how well it works for them if they go this way.


disclamer: I captain kayaks. :)

Kayaks are cool.. just don't get yours in front of a truly autonomous ASDS - it'll run you over. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: acsawdey on 03/13/2020 01:38 am
EDIT:  If they really are mounting these new thrusters the way I think they are, there would be excessive amounts of drag trying to tow without the thrusters operating.  Maybe they'll run the thrusters for the entire journey (a self-propelled barge) and use the tug more as close escort/guidance via the tow-line rather than actually towing?  I would not have thought that would gain them more than a knot or two in speed, but I guess we'll see in time how well it works for them if they go this way.
Kayaks are cool.. just don't get yours in front of a truly autonomous ASDS - it'll run you over. :)

Aren't 2 of the new thrusters similar in power to what's typically installed on the tugs that SpaceX has been hiring? So they might be able to pick up a little more speed. Would the tow cable be a limiting factor for speed when the ASDS is under tow?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ShSch on 03/13/2020 07:33 am
A few observations:
  1) SpaceX has been working on the four large cylinders for several weeks, if not months, already. What takes so long?
  2) These cylinders are very tall. They don't have to be so tall to simply mount the thruster pods at the bottom and attach the resulting stack to the barge.
  3) Yet the cylinders are placed well above the deck, as if the pods are going to be mounted at the bottom.

Conjecture: they are installing a system/machinery to raise/lower the thrusters vertically within these cylinders. This would solve all the drag and clearance problems. This would also explain why the cylinders are so beefy and why it takes so long to complete the installation.

Disclaimer: none of my previous conjectures about what SpaceX was planning to do ended up being correct :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/15/2020 09:57 pm
EDIT:  If they really are mounting these new thrusters the way I think they are, there would be excessive amounts of drag trying to tow without the thrusters operating.  Maybe they'll run the thrusters for the entire journey (a self-propelled barge) and use the tug more as close escort/guidance via the tow-line rather than actually towing?  I would not have thought that would gain them more than a knot or two in speed, but I guess we'll see in time how well it works for them if they go this way.
Kayaks are cool.. just don't get yours in front of a truly autonomous ASDS - it'll run you over. :)

Aren't 2 of the new thrusters similar in power to what's typically installed on the tugs that SpaceX has been hiring? So they might be able to pick up a little more speed. Would the tow cable be a limiting factor for speed when the ASDS is under tow?

Sure. :)   As I said, maybe a knot or two.. because they're still limited by the hull speed of the loaded barge and the sea state they're travelling in.

Whether or not the tow cable is a limiting factor depends entirely on how they plan to tow it.  Presuming the 'self-powered barge' guess is correct, there are a few ways to tow it including:
1. In front and behind - in which case the tow cables remain slack (or very lightly loaded) until needed and, apart from the loading on the cables, is essentially similar to how they've towed the ASDSs thus far.

2. Tow from one side - the tug is hard-docked alongside and the tug/barge combination act as one.  Aside from the disadvantage of increasing the width of the assembly, this has a few advantages over the 'in line' method, one of the main ones being that access to the barge is as easy as walking onto it from the tug.  It also makes control of the barge's thrusters from the bridge of the tug a simple matter of running a cable along the deck.  How this would work given the width of the wings forces the tug to be a reasonable distance away from the thrust line, I'm not sure..

It's worth keeping in mind that, by law, the ASDSs need to be manned every time they enter and leave port, because someone needs to be on board in case of fire/emergency or to take on new lines if a tow cable breaks.  If the ASDS was 'self-powered' this person would also be responsible for operation of generators, thrusters and navigation equipment all the way to the landing zone and given that we've seen no accommodations on board for a crew, it might make some sense to use a tug alongside for this purpose.

It'll be interesting to see what they do.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 03/15/2020 11:30 pm
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-new-rocket-recovery-robot-drone-ship-upgrades/

Autonomous port to port capability with a robotic Octograbber would be a heck of a statement and could really improve their cycle times and massively reduce recovery costs

Without upgrades to the Canaveral Port Authority of equal or greater magnitude, that ain't ever going to happen.  :)


Ok, tow it out to and back from the minimal number of miles.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/15/2020 11:47 pm
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-new-rocket-recovery-robot-drone-ship-upgrades/

Autonomous port to port capability with a robotic Octograbber would be a heck of a statement and could really improve their cycle times and massively reduce recovery costs

Without upgrades to the Canaveral Port Authority of equal or greater magnitude, that ain't ever going to happen.  :)


Ok, tow it out to and back from the minimal number of miles.

But.. that's what they do right now.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/20/2020 04:22 pm
Some great photos of current work

https://twitter.com/farryfaz/status/1241051450714841089

Quote
Work on board is still happening today on Just Read the Instructions
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 03/20/2020 04:27 pm
Some great photos of current work

https://twitter.com/farryfaz/status/1241051450714841089 (https://twitter.com/farryfaz/status/1241051450714841089)

Quote
Work on board is still happening today on Just Read the Instructions
Thrusters are now installed beneath mounts. Still wonder if the thrusters will be retractable or not.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SteveU on 03/20/2020 05:12 pm
Some great photos of current work

Quote
Work on board is still happening today on Just Read the Instructions
Thrusters are now installed beneath mounts. Still wonder if the thrusters will be retractable or not.

Cant imagine the mounts would be hollow if they weren't planning on retracting the thrusters.

Wish there were workers standing near one to get a sense of scale - i know they're big - just not how big.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 03/20/2020 10:51 pm
Cant imagine the mounts would be hollow if they weren't planning on retracting the thrusters.

Wish there were workers standing near one to get a sense of scale - i know they're big - just not how big.

Ladders and Trashcan are a pretty good comparison.  Props themselves look 12 ft diameter to me.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 03/21/2020 11:14 am
Some great photos of current work

Quote
Work on board is still happening today on Just Read the Instructions
Thrusters are now installed beneath mounts. Still wonder if the thrusters will be retractable or not.

Cant imagine the mounts would be hollow if they weren't planning on retracting the thrusters.

Wish there were workers standing near one to get a sense of scale - i know they're big - just not how big.

My bet is also retractable, but not inside the mounts, instead the whole mount itself. If you check, you will se that mounting tabs, outside the mounts are not directly inline with the back straight wall, but a bit ahead. So to connect it to the straight wall of the barge, something have to fill that gap.
One possibility is a serious I beam colums as reinforcement or something similar. But that could be also a column like lifting mechanism also.

Some random observations. The white stands with yellow railing seems like as they repurposed the Facon recovery stand :)

Some half circular steel structures in the third row from the front blast wall: probably lids for the mounts.

Inline with that wall, on the edge of the barge smaller (still big) rounded items, 7 similar ones still in package: probably motors/actuators of some kind.

Back and front containers have a 2. floor now, with some kind of cabinets. Seems like serious electrical distribution/conversion system for me.
The front one have a rack like structure under, a battery bank maybe?

Edit: wording
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FlattestEarth on 03/21/2020 12:48 pm
https://twitter.com/Kyle_M_Photo/status/1241327293580152835
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/22/2020 09:25 pm
What I don't understand is why they're doing all of this fabrication on the deck of a floating barge.  Surely it would have been more easily, secretly, safely and pleasantly (out of the weather) done in a cargo shed on shore somewhere??
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 03/22/2020 09:28 pm
Back and front containers have a 2. floor now, with some kind of cabinets. Seems like serious electrical distribution/conversion system for me.
The front one have a rack like structure under, a battery bank maybe?

The new thrusters are electric.  High voltage electric.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 03/22/2020 11:10 pm
What I don't understand is why they're doing all of this fabrication on the deck of a floating barge.  Surely it would have been more easily, secretly, safely and pleasantly (out of the weather) done in a cargo shed on shore somewhere??

This is the company making rockets bound for Mars with humans, in a field in Texas. Assembling thrusters on a barge is much better control environment.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 03/23/2020 03:04 pm
What I don't understand is why they're doing all of this fabrication on the deck of a floating barge.  Surely it would have been more easily, secretly, safely and pleasantly (out of the weather) done in a cargo shed on shore somewhere??
Likely something boring, like welding the mount bases to the deck being faster than casting concrete bases and waiting for them to set (or finding somewhere the Port Authority will let them dig holes to cast into).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/07/2020 02:46 pm
https://twitter.com/john_winkopp/status/1247529552483463169

Quote
#JRTI Just Read The Instructions about to get it's thrusters installed @SpaceXFleet
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SpaceOffshore on 04/07/2020 05:02 pm
The first thruster appears to be being installed on the port quarter today. Unfortunately, the only proof of this is via the unfriendly webcam. It's also shore-side so not visible right now.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rondaz on 04/08/2020 08:57 pm
Four years ago today, Falcon 9 landed on the Of Course I Still Love You droneship for the first time.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/1247974402739724288
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/11/2020 04:21 pm
twitter.com/marekcyzio/status/1249004481141977089

Quote
@SpaceXFleet JRTI is getting some additions.

https://twitter.com/marekcyzio/status/1249004668753186824

twitter.com/marekcyzio/status/1249005178583486471

https://twitter.com/marekcyzio/status/1249005446549123072
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 04/13/2020 01:11 pm
Next day (Easter):
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/13/2020 05:56 pm
https://twitter.com/spacecoast_stve/status/1249750320063881216

Quote
I took a stroll up to the port to try to catch the fleet departing for Starlink. Almost as soon as I arrived, I caught word that the launch was delayed to next week. I still got some shots of the work on #JRTI. New container just put in place by the mobile crane in #2.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/18/2020 02:24 pm
https://twitter.com/spacecoast_stve/status/1251515036247437312

Quote
I don’t know about y’all, but that looks like two thrusters installed on Just Read The Instructions, with another on deck in preparation for installation!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: salpun on 04/18/2020 03:01 pm
Looks like they turned the barge around so they could install the other two.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FlattestEarth on 04/19/2020 02:56 am
Any insight as to whether they can be raised out of the water inside the housings for towing or if they are just dry wells?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 04/20/2020 01:24 am
If there is an erectable bridge structure aboard. Legally can the ASDS barges become boats if there is a helmsman/caretaker aboard except the duration of time for recovering Falcon 9 cores?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/20/2020 02:13 am
If there is an erectable bridge structure aboard. Legally can the ASDS barges become boats if there is a helmsman/caretaker aboard except the duration of time for recovering Falcon 9 cores?

Nope.  Barges essentially exist under a range of exemptions from requirements in the ABS Steel Vessel Rules around navigation equipment, collision avoidance, machinery spaces, hull design and construction that the Marmac 300-class are not intended to comply with.

Sure, you could spend the $$$ and do the conversion, but to go this way it would be cheaper to follow Blue Origin's path and start with something already classified as a ship.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 04/20/2020 02:24 am
It is important for folks to note that in everything SpX has done to construct their ASDSs, there is still an un-altered Marmac barge at the core of it. ..and it's highly unlikely they would EVER do anything that would modify that core since that could invalidate the classification (and potentially their lease agreements with the owners).

That's why it is no surprise to most that the thrusters are still on the outside and the power packs still on deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ghoti on 04/20/2020 02:29 am
If there is an erectable bridge structure aboard. Legally can the ASDS barges become boats if there is a helmsman/caretaker aboard except the duration of time for recovering Falcon 9 cores?

Nope.  Barges essentially exist under a range of exemptions from requirements in the ABS Steel Vessel Rules around navigation equipment, collision avoidance, machinery spaces, hull design and construction that the Marmac 300-class are not intended to comply with.

Sure, you could spend the $$$ and do the conversion, but to go this way it would be cheaper to follow Blue Origin's path and start with something already classified as a ship.
Thing is you'll always want people out there with the ASDS but not on board when the booster lands. So a tug will always accompany it.  The ASDS can probably do most of the work with those thrusters so maybe only one tug will be needed and not the really large ones required now. Just guessing...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/20/2020 08:29 pm
https://twitter.com/gregscott_photo/status/1252331412176416769

Quote
SpaceX Fleet Update: #SpaceX 's JRTI drone ship is showing rapid daily improvement. Yesterday the crew had attached 2 of the 4 massive thrusters & as of this morning the 3rd thruster had been attached & work on the back of the ship was progressing quickly before the storms. #NASA
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SpaceOffshore on 04/20/2020 10:57 pm
The above tweet has slight inaccuracies that should be noted. The first two thrusters were not installed yesterday. The first thruster was installed on April 7th with the second in the days after. These two then became visible on Friday afternoon (17th) when JRTI was rotated 180 degrees so they could install the other two thrusters.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SpaceOffshore on 04/20/2020 11:06 pm
Any insight as to whether they can be raised out of the water inside the housings for towing or if they are just dry wells?

Nothing has been observed to indicate this during the construction. Now that the thrusters are submerged it will be far more difficult...  :(
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/22/2020 07:26 pm
https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1253041552269721601

Quote
Work on JRTI continues.  One thruster left to install and it looks like they are working on the cargo containers.  #SpaceXFleet #SpaceX @SpaceXFleet
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/23/2020 09:36 pm
https://twitter.com/gregscott_photo/status/1253433761976418304

Quote
SpaceX Fleet Update: This afternoon onboard #SpaceX 's JRTI work is progressing. The fourth & final thruster has been put in place and generators were being moved into place as the droneship comes closer to completion. #NASA #SpaceXFleet #Space
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/25/2020 07:26 am
https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1253841946734481410

Quote
Looks like they are testing some of JRTI's generators.  #SpaceXFleet #SpaceX @SpaceXFleet
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/25/2020 02:57 pm
https://twitter.com/spacecoast_stve/status/1254058720692232194
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/07/2020 09:13 am
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1258258676038631424

Quote
Work is at a furious pace on #JRTI. The thruster pods have received additional support and there is a crazy amount of work on deck and, judging by the tarps, below, as well.
#SpaceXFleet

twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1258262612812365824

Quote
OCISLY also has giant tarps on deck with there being extensive work apparently above and below deck. Not sure if SL delay was to support this work or simply so Altas could prep for Natl. Security mission. Look at how small those thrusters seem now compared to JRTI. #SpaceXFleet

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1258262638297038849

Quote
On the note of size, check out the difference in engine room container stacks! Side by side OCISLY and JRTI. It will be interesting to see them side by side when the ballast is equal. #SpaceXFleet
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: LandingZone-1 on 05/11/2020 12:03 am
https://twitter.com/MarekCyzio/status/1259217234297335808

Quote
@SpaceXFleet JRTI work continues
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/12/2020 06:35 am
https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1259971498770681863

Quote
Finn Falgout is docked in front of and hooked up to OCISLY.  Octagrabber is out of its garage and some machinery is still on deck.  #SpaceXFleet #SpaceX
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 05/13/2020 05:23 pm
https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1259971498770681863 (https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1259971498770681863)

Quote
Finn Falgout is docked in front of and hooked up to OCISLY.  Octagrabber is out of its garage and some machinery is still on deck.  #SpaceXFleet #SpaceX

What are the two grid covered objects mounted on the ends of OCISLY's blast shield with the garage door?
(Screen capture from Kyle Montgomery's post.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 05/13/2020 05:26 pm
https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1259971498770681863 (https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1259971498770681863)

Quote
Finn Falgout is docked in front of and hooked up to OCISLY.  Octagrabber is out of its garage and some machinery is still on deck.  #SpaceXFleet #SpaceX

What are the two grid covered objects mounted on the ends of OCISLY's blast shield with the garage door?
(Screen capture from Kyle Montgomery's post.)
I think those are LED lights.


Edit to add an example image
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: harrystranger on 05/14/2020 12:26 am
Just Read The Instructions out on its first trial since work began.
Edit for clarity: JRTI isn't going to recover a booster, just testing the new thrusters (assumption). Of Course I Still Love You left for Starlink later in the day

https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1260532107606138881?s
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1260542512407683072?s
https://twitter.com/eg0911/status/1260628535015813121?s
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ghoti on 05/14/2020 12:29 am
Doesn't seem to be much deck area left to land on...Are those parts of a launch mount standing on deck?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: salpun on 05/14/2020 12:49 am
Doesn't seem to be much deck area left to land on...Are those parts of a launch mount standing on deck?
Those are where the Z-pods and mounting hardware were combined. Once they Z-pods are tested they will be removed.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/17/2020 12:12 pm
https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1261989646885703681

Quote
There is a fair bit less on JRTI's deck now.  #SpaceXFleet #SpaceX
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DistantTemple on 05/17/2020 12:22 pm
Since Starlink 8 is getting pushed by Atlas.... Is there any chance JRTI could catch the DEMO 1 booster, instead of OCISLY doing a mad rush to port to unload?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/17/2020 12:37 pm
JRTI is looking (nearly?) ready but I’d expect some trials to be needed to check out all the recent changes

https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1261994976935849984

https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1261994931217936384

Edit to fix typo
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Perchlorate on 05/17/2020 12:50 pm
JRTI is looking (nearly?) ready but I’d expect some trails to be needed to check out all the recent changes

The Appalachian Trail is lovely this time of year.  But I don't think the Park Service is going to allow a really big barge onto it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/18/2020 12:29 pm
https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1262348002557153281

Quote
And there goes JRTI, good luck with today's sea trials. #SpaceXFleet #SpaceX
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/18/2020 08:24 pm
twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1262380286731575301

Quote
JRTI's deck shots, including the garage where her octagrabber will soon live.  #SpaceXFleet #SpaceX

https://twitter.com/kyle_m_photo/status/1262380291362041857

Quote
Some more JRTI deck shots, there are still a lot of generators on board, I'm guessing they are leftovers from deck work.  #SpaceXFleet #SpaceX
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/19/2020 01:21 am
So.. what do we think the Compressed Nitrogen storage is for??  That's a lot of nitrogen.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 05/19/2020 01:43 am
So.. what do we think the Compressed Nitrogen storage is for??  That's a lot of nitrogen.
I was thinking to pressure stabilize the returned stage?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 05/19/2020 09:01 am
So.. what do we think the Compressed Nitrogen storage is for??  That's a lot of nitrogen.
I was thinking to pressure stabilize the returned stage?

Better guess than any of mine, but why now? Why don't we seen something similar before? They do this Falcon landing thing quite a while, and it was good without nitrogen till now.

If for pressure stabilization of the stages, that should be for Starship.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 05/19/2020 09:38 am
So.. what do we think the Compressed Nitrogen storage is for??  That's a lot of nitrogen.
I was thinking to pressure stabilize the returned stage?

Why suddenly now? SpaceX has landed well over 30 stages at sea and never was there the need to pressure stabilize a landed stage. The stage structures are perfectly stable by themselves.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SDSmith on 05/19/2020 10:01 am
So.. what do we think the Compressed Nitrogen storage is for??  That's a lot of nitrogen.
I was thinking to pressure stabilize the returned stage?

Why suddenly now? SpaceX has landed well over 30 stages at sea and never was there the need to pressure stabilize a landed stage. The stage structures are perfectly stable by themselves.
Could the tanks be used to recycle helium?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/19/2020 01:05 pm
https://twitter.com/mikeljohns/status/1262559723058053120

Quote
Taken today
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 05/19/2020 02:25 pm
So.. what do we think the Compressed Nitrogen storage is for??  That's a lot of nitrogen.
I was thinking to pressure stabilize the returned stage?

Why suddenly now? SpaceX has landed well over 30 stages at sea and never was there the need to pressure stabilize a landed stage. The stage structures are perfectly stable by themselves.
Could the tanks be used to recycle helium?

Fire extinguishing? They use fresh water now? Or salt water? N2 would be less corrosive.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Okie_Steve on 05/19/2020 02:58 pm
So.. what do we think the Compressed Nitrogen storage is for??  That's a lot of nitrogen.
I was thinking to pressure stabilize the returned stage?

Why suddenly now? SpaceX has landed well over 30 stages at sea and never was there the need to pressure stabilize a landed stage. The stage structures are perfectly stable by themselves.

Maybe it is a rough weather thing where the rock and roll adds more stress than flat land.  With bigger thrusters on the barge they may be getting more aggressive about working in rough seas to reduce .launch delays. The cost of just one damaged stage buys a lot of nitrogen
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/21/2020 01:00 am
So.. what do we think the Compressed Nitrogen storage is for??  That's a lot of nitrogen.
I was thinking to pressure stabilize the returned stage?

Why suddenly now? SpaceX has landed well over 30 stages at sea and never was there the need to pressure stabilize a landed stage. The stage structures are perfectly stable by themselves.
Could the tanks be used to recycle helium?

Fire extinguishing? They use fresh water now? Or salt water? N2 would be less corrosive.

Ship-board fire extinguishing systems typically use CO2 - which isn't corrosive and, by displacing oxygen, is a lot more effective at snuffing out fires (and people) than N2 is.  AFAIK, the ASDSs are still using fresh water from ballast.

Given it's sudden appearance, I'm thinking it might be something to do with the new thruster installation? ..but then that's why I asked the question.


EDIT:  I may have found an answer - High Voltage Cable Nitrogen Purging:
Nitrogen purging can be applied to cables to prevent ingress of moisture and or water into the conductors and/or screens of a high voltage insulated cable. Dry and very pure nitrogen forces moisture from the conductors and the screens of high voltage cables which increases insulation resistance and delivers a longer lasting installation - especially in a marine environment.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FlattestEarth on 05/26/2020 12:21 pm
https://twitter.com/KimptonColorado/status/1264286897263820806

https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1265101771896225792
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 05/26/2020 03:24 pm
IIRC the N2 tanks have been there all long, they've just been moved above the 'garage door' because all of the new generator equipment is taking up so much room. The tanks can be seen on the left of this image of OCISLY (https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/CRS-19-Falcon-9-B1059-OCISLY-120519-SpaceX-port-arrival-1-crop-2.jpg).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/29/2020 12:24 am
Seems someone answered my question:  :)
Quote
(https://twitter.com/SLC4_LZ2/status/1265102017795461121?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)
 (https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1265102287309099008?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

(but it could still, possibly, maybe, also be used to purge the HV cables.. IMHO  ;D)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/29/2020 12:45 am
https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1265101771896225792

The deck definitely doesn't seem to be as cluttered as I thought it might be once the thrusters and their support equipment was added.

My educated guess is there is one Diesel Generator dedicated to each thruster, with the fifth one used for everything else on board.  Since the air inlets are at the end (and these things can draw quite a bit of air through when running) I'm a bit surprised they haven't extended the blast wall a bit higher since a Rocket RUD incident might result in debris getting sucked into the inlets leaving the ASDS dead in the water.  I assume it's either a risk they're happy to take, or one of those containers houses HV switching gear as a precaution.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FlattestEarth on 05/29/2020 05:22 am
 Fuel tanks are only visible on one end?  The pipes running end to end on the corners are for electrical redundancies?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/29/2020 05:54 am
Fuel tanks are only visible on one end?  The pipes running end to end on the corners are for electrical redundancies?

It doesn't make sense for there to only be fuel tanks at one end, so we must not be able to see the others from this angle.  The gray around the corners looks to me like covered cable tray carrying the power cables to the thrusters.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FlattestEarth on 05/29/2020 11:08 am

It doesn't make sense for there to only be fuel tanks at one end, so we must not be able to see the others from this angle.  The gray around the corners looks to me like covered cable tray carrying the power cables to the thrusters.

Look at the thruster at bottom right.  The cable trays go past the thruster then bend out, turn to conduit, then bend toward the opposite end.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: HVM on 05/29/2020 12:30 pm
So.. what do we think the Compressed Nitrogen storage is for??  That's a lot of nitrogen.
I was thinking to pressure stabilize the returned stage?

Why suddenly now? SpaceX has landed well over 30 stages at sea and never was there the need to pressure stabilize a landed stage. The stage structures are perfectly stable by themselves.
Not for Falcons, it's for Super Heavy...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 05/29/2020 01:58 pm
So.. what do we think the Compressed Nitrogen storage is for??  That's a lot of nitrogen.
I was thinking to pressure stabilize the returned stage?

Why suddenly now? SpaceX has landed well over 30 stages at sea and never was there the need to pressure stabilize a landed stage. The stage structures are perfectly stable by themselves.
Not for Falcons, it's for Super Heavy...
The N2 tanks are for Falcon. They've been onboard for a while, they've simply moved location. See my post upthread.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Papagolash on 05/29/2020 04:02 pm
Can someone tell me where JRTI is currently? I'm down in Port Canaveral and saw miss tree, navigator, and chief but no JRTI. I thought she was still dry docked getting upgrades but I see that upgrades have been completed and she's doing testing now.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 05/29/2020 04:06 pm
Can someone tell me where JRTI is currently?

JRTI is still moored in its usual place.  You'll be able to see it from Fish Lips, Gator's, Rusty's, or any of those places on the south side of the port once this freighter finishes docking.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Papagolash on 05/29/2020 04:37 pm
Can someone tell me where JRTI is currently?

JRTI is still moored in its usual place.  You'll be able to see it from Fish Lips, Gator's, Rusty's, or any of those places on the south side of the port once this freighter finishes docking.

Thank you for the quick response, I'm actually going to be heading over there soon to grab some lunch. Where is the usual place that it docks? I was able to drive up to miss tree and the others when they were docked but didn't see JRTI, is it further down the canal closer to the ocean?

Edit: I saw it, thank you!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: grimlocks on 05/31/2020 06:58 am
https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1266838104268320770/photo/1

https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1266840103533584384

Gavin - SpaceXFleet.com
@SpaceXFleet
·
9h
SpaceX's second droneship is now departing Port Canaveral.

'Just Read the Instructions' has been under construction for the past few months but is now all-but complete.

This is unrelated to today's Demo-2 mission.
📷
 http://PTZtv.com


There are a few other pictures in that twitter thread as well.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: HVM on 05/31/2020 09:42 am
So.. what do we think the Compressed Nitrogen storage is for??  That's a lot of nitrogen.
I was thinking to pressure stabilize the returned stage?

Why suddenly now? SpaceX has landed well over 30 stages at sea and never was there the need to pressure stabilize a landed stage. The stage structures are perfectly stable by themselves.
Not for Falcons, it's for Super Heavy...
The N2 tanks are for Falcon. They've been onboard for a while, they've simply moved location. See my post upthread.
Yes, F9 seems to have pressure lines connected to umbilical ports at ASDS, but guess that it's for purge and not for structural reasons.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nick L on 06/01/2020 09:46 pm
What is the benefit of new thrusters? JRTI still needs a tug like Finn Falgout to move?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 06/01/2020 09:49 pm
What is the benefit of new thrusters? JRTI still needs a tug like Finn Falgout to move?

Probably so it can do a better job of maintaining its position in rougher seas while waiting for a landing stage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 06/01/2020 10:15 pm
What is the benefit of new thrusters? JRTI still needs a tug like Finn Falgout to move?

Probably so it can do a better job of maintaining its position in rougher seas while waiting for a landing stage.

Yes, this seem like the consensus here, but still not enough convincing as we newer heard about station keeping problems with the old thrusters. (The fact that we dont heard about them do not means that they dont have problems, but a hint...)

So what if the new thrusters are to provide the same or similar maneuverability/control authotity under much bigger ballast load, which in turn can help them to counteract waves and tilting. (Just because that is a well known problem, mentioned in several interviews and sources)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SteveU on 06/01/2020 11:21 pm
What is the benefit of new thrusters? JRTI still needs a tug like Finn Falgout to move?
I remember reading that JRTI is classified as a barge and because it’s a “barge” a tug is needed. Doesn’t matter if it could self propelle it’s self or not, it’s still a barge. The person that wrote that also stated that converting the classification would be a major pita, and probably not worth the effort. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 06/01/2020 11:27 pm
What is the benefit of new thrusters? JRTI still needs a tug like Finn Falgout to move?
I remember reading that JRTI is classified as a barge and because it’s a “barge” a tug is needed. Doesn’t matter if it could self propelle it’s self or not, it’s still a barge. The person that wrote that also stated that converting the classification would be a major pita, and probably not worth the effort.

The person who wrote that was CameronD, our resident marine vessel expert. Yes, JRTI and OCISLY are always going to need tugboats.

Take a look at Blue Origin's cargo ship now being refit for rocket catching. That one will presumably be running on autopilot or remote control during missions, and it's a completely different animal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Origin_landing_platform_ship#:~:text=LPV%2C%20previously%20Stena%20Freighter%2C%20is,its%20role%20of%20landing%20rockets.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 06/01/2020 11:29 pm
Yes, this seem like the consensus here, but still not enough convincing as we newer heard about station keeping problems with the old thrusters. (The fact that we dont heard about them do not means that they dont have problems, but a hint...)

We actually have heard they have had issues with station keeping with OCISLY.
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2019/12/spacexs-jrti-droneship-arrives-florida-upgrades/
Quote
During these landings, the droneship has to battle the strong Gulf Stream current. It is understood that OCISLY’s thrusters have had difficulty station keeping in these tough conditions during the recovery attempts.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SteveU on 06/02/2020 12:19 am
What is the benefit of new thrusters? JRTI still needs a tug like Finn Falgout to move?
I remember reading that JRTI is classified as a barge and because it’s a “barge” a tug is needed. Doesn’t matter if it could self propelle it’s self or not, it’s still a barge. The person that wrote that also stated that converting the classification would be a major pita, and probably not worth the effort.

The person who wrote that was CameronD, our resident marine vessel expert. Yes, JRTI and OCISLY are always going to need tugboats.

Take a look at Blue Origin's cargo ship now being refit for rocket catching. That one will presumably be running on autopilot or remote control during missions, and it's a completely different animal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Origin_landing_platform_ship#:~:text=LPV%2C%20previously%20Stena%20Freighter%2C%20is,its%20role%20of%20landing%20rockets.
Thanks for giving CameronD credit!  He’s given us a lot of good info - even if I couldn’t remember who gave it to us.  :-\
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nick L on 06/02/2020 05:36 am
Thanks guys for the replies and clarifications!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 06/02/2020 06:39 am
What is the benefit of new thrusters? JRTI still needs a tug like Finn Falgout to move?

Probably so it can do a better job of maintaining its position in rougher seas while waiting for a landing stage.

Yes, this seem like the consensus here, but still not enough convincing as we newer heard about station keeping problems with the old thrusters. (The fact that we dont heard about them do not means that they dont have problems, but a hint...)

So what if the new thrusters are to provide the same or similar maneuverability/control authotity under much bigger ballast load, which in turn can help them to counteract waves and tilting. (Just because that is a well known problem, mentioned in several interviews and sources)
That  makes a lot of sense
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DecoLV on 06/02/2020 03:26 pm
Hi, is there going to be livestream coverage of the return of OCISLY and Falcon to Port Canveral? When is return expected?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 06/02/2020 03:33 pm
What is the benefit of new thrusters? JRTI still needs a tug like Finn Falgout to move?

Probably so it can do a better job of maintaining its position in rougher seas while waiting for a landing stage.

The new thrusters could also be used while towing. This would allow faster transit times.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jabe on 06/02/2020 03:40 pm
What is the benefit of new thrusters? JRTI still needs a tug like Finn Falgout to move?

Probably so it can do a better job of maintaining its position in rougher seas while waiting for a landing stage.

mass is your friend for stability..can think of cheaper ways to add mass though. :) but better propulsion is never a bad thing.  Love to have been on the discussion on the needs for the larger thrusters... and how big to go..trad studies would have been neat to see.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: salpun on 06/02/2020 03:41 pm
NSF will have a stream when it gets closer.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cpushack on 06/02/2020 04:51 pm
What is the benefit of new thrusters? JRTI still needs a tug like Finn Falgout to move?

Probably so it can do a better job of maintaining its position in rougher seas while waiting for a landing stage.

mass is your friend for stability..can think of cheaper ways to add mass though. :) but better propulsion is never a bad thing.  Love to have been on the discussion on the needs for the larger thrusters... and how big to go..trad studies would have been neat to see.

I think if it was the more mass to gain more stability then the thrusters werent to add the mass, they were required BECAUSE of the added mass (as noted by user ChrisWilson68 above)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jabe on 06/02/2020 09:10 pm
What is the benefit of new thrusters? JRTI still needs a tug like Finn Falgout to move?

Probably so it can do a better job of maintaining its position in rougher seas while waiting for a landing stage.

mass is your friend for stability..can think of cheaper ways to add mass though. :) but better propulsion is never a bad thing.  Love to have been on the discussion on the needs for the larger thrusters... and how big to go..trad studies would have been neat to see.

I think if it was the more mass to gain more stability then the thrusters werent to add the mass, they were required BECAUSE of the added mass (as noted by user ChrisWilson68 above)
any idea how big the thrusters can get?  any bigger and would seem to be overkill :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cwr on 06/03/2020 09:54 pm
late on June 2nd Julia Bergeron tweeted a photo of octograbber on OCISLY,
identifying it as octograbber 2.

<quote>
Julia
@julia_bergeron
·
17h
I missed something until I was looking at my photos. I do believe that the new Octagrabber was just used on OCISLY for DM-2. The profile is lower to the deck and more finished. Left is today, right is January 2020. Sneaky! #SpaceXFleet #Octagrabber
</quote>

[Sorry, I've not tried to quote a tweet on NSF before]

In the octograbber thread there is a recent photo of JRTI with what looks to me like an octograbber 2.

So the question is "was the octograbber 2 on JRTI switched to OCISLY for DM-2 and if so,
is the octograbber at sea on JRTI the original octograbber from OCISLY or a 2nd octograbber 2?"

Can anybody shed any light?

Carl
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 06/04/2020 02:27 am
late on June 2nd Julia Bergeron tweeted a photo of octograbber on OCISLY,
identifying it as octograbber 2.

Quote
Julia
@julia_bergeron
·
17h
I missed something until I was looking at my photos. I do believe that the new Octagrabber was just used on OCISLY for DM-2. The profile is lower to the deck and more finished. Left is today, right is January 2020. Sneaky! #SpaceXFleet #Octagrabber

[Sorry, I've not tried to quote a tweet on NSF before]

In the octograbber thread there is a recent photo of JRTI with what looks to me like an octograbber 2.

So the question is "was the octograbber 2 on JRTI switched to OCISLY for DM-2 and if so,
is the octograbber at sea on JRTI the original octograbber from OCISLY or a 2nd octograbber 2?"

Can anybody shed any light?

Carl

Based on the leg retraction we saw of the DM-2 booster where Falcon 9 sat on the Octagrabber for leg retraction, I think it's certain that the new octagrabber debuted on DM-2 and the original is currently on JRTI.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/04/2020 05:04 am
any idea how big the thrusters can get?  any bigger and would seem to be overkill :)

Assuming they are these: http://www.cqhisea.com/m/productshow.php?cid=125&id=1012  (as posted by enbandi last December), then what they have installed now is about as big as they come - from this supplier anyway.

Folks like ABB and Wartsila do make larger ones for tugs and larger vessels, but yes, definitely overkill.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 06/04/2020 10:23 am
late on June 2nd Julia Bergeron tweeted a photo of octograbber on OCISLY,
identifying it as octograbber 2.

Quote
Julia
@julia_bergeron
·
17h
I missed something until I was looking at my photos. I do believe that the new Octagrabber was just used on OCISLY for DM-2. The profile is lower to the deck and more finished. Left is today, right is January 2020. Sneaky! #SpaceXFleet #Octagrabber

[Sorry, I've not tried to quote a tweet on NSF before]

In the octograbber thread there is a recent photo of JRTI with what looks to me like an octograbber 2.

So the question is "was the octograbber 2 on JRTI switched to OCISLY for DM-2 and if so,
is the octograbber at sea on JRTI the original octograbber from OCISLY or a 2nd octograbber 2?"

Can anybody shed any light?

Carl

Based on the leg retraction we saw of the DM-2 booster where Falcon 9 sat on the Octagrabber for leg retraction, I think it's certain that the new octagrabber debuted on DM-2 and the original is currently on JRTI.
Option 3: two Super Octograbbers were constructed at Cocoa, and the original Octograbbers have been retired.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 06/04/2020 11:08 am
late on June 2nd Julia Bergeron tweeted a photo of octograbber on OCISLY,
identifying it as octograbber 2.

Quote
Julia
@julia_bergeron
·
17h
I missed something until I was looking at my photos. I do believe that the new Octagrabber was just used on OCISLY for DM-2. The profile is lower to the deck and more finished. Left is today, right is January 2020. Sneaky! #SpaceXFleet #Octagrabber

[Sorry, I've not tried to quote a tweet on NSF before]

In the octograbber thread there is a recent photo of JRTI with what looks to me like an octograbber 2.

So the question is "was the octograbber 2 on JRTI switched to OCISLY for DM-2 and if so,
is the octograbber at sea on JRTI the original octograbber from OCISLY or a 2nd octograbber 2?"

Can anybody shed any light?

Carl

Based on the leg retraction we saw of the DM-2 booster where Falcon 9 sat on the Octagrabber for leg retraction, I think it's certain that the new octagrabber debuted on DM-2 and the original is currently on JRTI.
Option 3: two Super Octograbbers were constructed at Cocoa, and the original Octograbbers have been retired.

Should we not be worried about an eccentric billionaire with his own Super Octograbbers?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 06/04/2020 11:25 am
any idea how big the thrusters can get?  any bigger and would seem to be overkill :)

Assuming they are these: http://www.cqhisea.com/m/productshow.php?cid=125&id=1012  (as posted by enbandi last December), then what they have installed now is about as big as they come - from this supplier anyway.

Folks like ABB and Wartsila do make larger ones for tugs and larger vessels, but yes, definitely overkill.  :)

Back to the original idea, you may have an answer for these:
What is the max ballast they can use?
Is that help to improve stability? 
Can be those overkill thrusters to maneuver with higher ballast?

The hypothesis was that they plan to use bigger ballast to improve stability, and the bigger thrusters are to provide maneuverability with the additional mass.

EDIT: clarification
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DistantTemple on 06/04/2020 05:54 pm
Ships usually move forward which the hull is designed to optimise. It takes immense engines and large props to transmit the power... into thrust etc. Momentum builds over some time to achieve cruising speed.
The energy needed and thus the size of the props depends greatly on the sea state. Its easy in calm water, and hard in large waves in the ocean.
An ASDS on station benefits from momentum to stay still. Apart from that its shape is not good, being just a cuboid. Reasonable size waves will quickly start it moving, and wind will catch its exposed topsides. Even out in the ocean there are currents of up to a couple of knots, pushing it off station.
Surprisingly large thrusters are needed to keep a droneship in position with a swell running and a fair breeze... and an ocean current. Add to that if it starts shifting through some gusts and a few larger waves, a strong burst of power is needed to correct its drift.
Also If it is deliberately more heavily ballasted to (attempt to) reduce roll and pitch, it will be as you say harder to shift!
If the droneship is to be successful in slightly more challenging conditions, then the previous thrusters look pathetically under powered.  In contrast these large ones will help it to be agile and responsive. Boats normally take time to respond.... but they usually don't have rockets trying to do split second landings!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 06/05/2020 09:06 pm
Aside of thrusters and Octograbbers, there were one more new thing with JRTI@Starlink mission: the landing video was not interupted/crashed.

I didnt seen any new in comm gear. Anybody? What is under those domes? Can it be a Starlink terminal?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SteveU on 06/05/2020 09:18 pm
Aside of thrusters and Octograbbers, there were one more new thing with JRTI@Starlink mission: the landing video was not interupted/crashed.

I didnt seen any new in comm gear. Anybody? What is under those domes? Can it be a Starlink terminal?
Wonder if the answer is as simple as “the antenna is 10 feet higher”?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 06/05/2020 09:18 pm
Aside of thrusters and Octograbbers, there were one more new thing with JRTI@Starlink mission: the landing video was not interupted/crashed.

I didnt seen any new in comm gear. Anybody? What is under those domes? Can it be a Starlink terminal?

That was the first thing I noticed too.  I've assumed they'd eventually use Starlink. 

But either way, I like not losing the signal.  Now I want drone footage that captures the last 10-20 seconds of flight from a distance.

I wish they'd build a self propelled ship that can handle rougher seas and head back to port quicker and get their faster.  I think it's worth designing and building one, because SH could benefit from down range recovery as well.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 06/05/2020 09:53 pm
There have been some uninterrupted landing videos with OCISLY, and not just close offshore.  I thought there was at least one GTO launch that was live all the way down.  Does anybody remember which?

Edit: JCSAT-18 was pretty close, skip ahead to 21:20.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbXgZg9JmkI&t=1279
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 06/05/2020 11:19 pm
There have been some uninterrupted landing videos with OCISLY, and not just close offshore.  I thought there was at least one GTO launch that was live all the way down.  Does anybody remember which?

Edit: JCSAT-18 was pretty close, skip ahead to 21:20.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbXgZg9JmkI&t=1279

There has been a fair amount. It's honestly weird at this point when people after every landing exclaim how it is so rare to get video of landing acting like it's never happened before. I don't know why everyone forgets the fact that since November last year only two landing feeds have cut out, the other 6 of them have had no cutout to touchdown.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 06/06/2020 10:59 am
There have been some uninterrupted landing videos with OCISLY, and not just close offshore.  I thought there was at least one GTO launch that was live all the way down.  Does anybody remember which?

Edit: JCSAT-18 was pretty close, skip ahead to 21:20.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbXgZg9JmkI&t=1279

There has been a fair amount. It's honestly weird at this point when people after every landing exclaim how it is so rare to get video of landing acting like it's never happened before. I don't know why everyone forgets the fact that since November last year only two landing feeds have cut out, the other 6 of them have had no cutout to touchdown.

You are right, thanks for pointing that out for me.

Still the last one seemed somewhat better quality to me: not a single glitch or compression artifact. Can be coincidence, or different camera setting or anything. Or I am simply wrong.

Here are the links, for who are interested (starts where the landing is):
https://youtu.be/y4xBFHjkUvw?t=1412
https://youtu.be/wSge0I7pwFI?t=1423
https://youtu.be/I4sMhHbHYXM?t=1387 (no feed at all)
https://youtu.be/8xeX62mLcf8?t=1116 (booster miss the drone ship)
https://youtu.be/1KmBDCiL7MU?t=1183
https://youtu.be/HwyXo6T7jC4?t=1204
https://youtu.be/sbXgZg9JmkI?t=1280
https://youtu.be/pIDuv0Ta0XQ?t=1401
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 06/06/2020 03:39 pm
The difference is offshore distance.  Starlink landings are ~150 miles offshore, GTO landings are ~350 miles.  JCSAT18 is actually the most recent GTO mission, we'll need to wait until the next GTO in another month or so to see if it was a fluke or not.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: webdan on 06/06/2020 03:56 pm
Those signals aren't beamed back to land... they're sent UP to geo comm sats for routing. Future could/would actually use Starlink.

A floating barge in bouncy seas with a self tracking antennae usually works fine for watching TV/Internet, as long as a 70m rocket doesn't opportune to land on your deck and disrupt the signal.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 06/09/2020 03:47 pm
JRTI has both a new deck layout, and larger gruntier positioning thrusters. That allows for more ballast while still allowing for suficient positioning authority (making for a more stable and vibration resistant platform), and the new deck layout allows for the dishes to be placed at the rear of the top of the double-decker generator stacks, better protected from direct blast effects (dishes were previously at the front of the single-high generator units right behind the blast deflectors). Signal cutoffs during landing have been down to physical buffeting of the satellite dish from the ~600kN blowtorch pointed at it, so protecting the dishes from that motion means they can keep pointing reliably and the high bandwidth link remains live. Telemetry gets its own low-bandwidth omnidirectional link from the booster itself, so callouts for booster landing occur without live video.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Doesitfloat on 06/10/2020 06:10 pm
I have a different opinion of the new thruster layout.
The new arrangement is a more fault tolerant design.
The thrusters are sized to allow 3 of 4 to hold position. That is why they are bigger.
The new generator layout is divided into bow and stern sections. Each section has 3 generators and switching gear. The switching gear will allow thrusters to work with 2 of 3 generators working.
The original layout had a generator attached to each thruster. The original layout could lose a thruster if the thruster or the generator had problems.

The new design can lose a generator and have no drop in service. It can also lose a thruster and have no drop in service.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 06/14/2020 02:34 am
Why don’t they use the left over SS301 from Boca Chica to resurface the Drone ship decks? Better corrosion and heat protection... not to mention looking really cool
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: awests on 06/14/2020 02:47 am
Why don’t they use the left over SS301 from Boca Chica to resurface the Drone ship decks? Better corrosion and heat protection... not to mention looking really cool

I wonder if reflective steel would mess with the landing sensors?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ghoti on 06/14/2020 03:08 am
Why don’t they use the left over SS301 from Boca Chica to resurface the Drone ship decks? Better corrosion and heat protection... not to mention looking really cool

I wonder if reflective steel would mess with the landing sensors?
Shiny, slippery surface...sounds perfect for ocean conditions :P Why not just put wheels on the bottom of the landing legs instead.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 06/14/2020 04:07 am
Why don’t they use the left over SS301 from Boca Chica to resurface the Drone ship decks? Better corrosion and heat protection... not to mention looking really cool

I wonder if reflective steel would mess with the landing sensors?

Never said you couldn’t put non-slip surface and radar reflection paint on 301SS. Base material 301 would have more corrosion resistance And thermal tolerance as decking material
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MKremer on 06/14/2020 10:06 pm
Why don’t they use the left over SS301 from Boca Chica to resurface the Drone ship decks? Better corrosion and heat protection... not to mention looking really cool
The big problem with that is the deck is 5/8in (~16mm) thick. I doubt there's any plate 301 close to that thickness and in that quantity left.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/14/2020 11:56 pm
Why don’t they use the left over SS301 from Boca Chica to resurface the Drone ship decks? Better corrosion and heat protection... not to mention looking really cool
The big problem with that is the deck is 5/8in (~16mm) thick. I doubt there's any plate 301 close to that thickness and in that quantity left.

Besides the incredible waste of good stainless steel, probably the biggest hurdle is that the deck (the landing area at least) is structurally part of the barge itself and thus isn't SpaceX's to play with in this way.

Assuming Wolfram is referring to simply sheeting over, the existing carbon-steel deck is already coated in heat-resistant paint and has shown to hold up just fine to multiple landings now without warping, so this would be fixing a problem that doesn't exist.  Besides, mild corrosion can be a good thing - rust is a poor conductor of heat so carbon-steel is self-protecting to some extent.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 06/15/2020 12:31 am
Besides the incredible waste of good stainless steel, probably the biggest hurdle is that the deck (the landing area at least) is structurally part of the barge itself and thus isn't SpaceX's to play with in this way.

I don't think that's really true.  While SpaceX doesn't own any of the ships, it's had no trouble coming to arrangements with the owners to make very drastic changes to both the droneships and the fairing catchers.  It's hard to imagine that the owners would be OK with all those massive changes but not with some further changes to the deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 06/15/2020 01:02 am
Besides the incredible waste of good stainless steel, probably the biggest hurdle is that the deck (the landing area at least) is structurally part of the barge itself and thus isn't SpaceX's to play with in this way.

I don't think that's really true.  While SpaceX doesn't own any of the ships, it's had no trouble coming to arrangements with the owners to make very drastic changes to both the droneships and the fairing catchers.  It's hard to imagine that the owners would be OK with all those massive changes but not with some further changes to the deck.


None of those changes affect structural strength and rigidity of the hull. Rebuilding the deck plating would do both and likely require regulatory approval. And again, it's a change that's entirely unnecessary.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/15/2020 01:10 am
Besides the incredible waste of good stainless steel, probably the biggest hurdle is that the deck (the landing area at least) is structurally part of the barge itself and thus isn't SpaceX's to play with in this way.

I don't think that's really true.  While SpaceX doesn't own any of the ships, it's had no trouble coming to arrangements with the owners to make very drastic changes to both the droneships and the fairing catchers.  It's hard to imagine that the owners would be OK with all those massive changes but not with some further changes to the deck.

Interestingly (and I'll readily admit SpX have been extremely clever in this regard), despite the 'drastic changes' you refer to, nothing they've done to date has materially affected the certification of the vessels beneath: there's a Marmac barge under there somewhere!!

So long as they (a) don't alter that underlying structure such that the classification is affected and (b) the USCG are okay with it and (c) the vessels can be returned to the way they were at the end of the lease, I'm sure the owners are okay with them doing whatever they like.  Changes to the deck (Materials of Construction) would violate (a) and maybe (c) and so are simply not on.

EDIT:  It seems Herb beat me to it  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rpaulsen on 06/17/2020 06:29 pm
New to the forums - Given the CV19 pandemic I wonder if cruise ships are  for sale?  Could a F9 land on a cruise ship if one made the top deck a flat top like an aircraft carrier?  Plenty of room below for crew quarters & facilities.   Could a super heavy land and be refueled by having LO2 & LCH4 tanks below decks?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/18/2020 12:43 am
New to the forums - Given the CV19 pandemic I wonder if cruise ships are  for sale?  Could a F9 land on a cruise ship if one made the top deck a flat top like an aircraft carrier?  Plenty of room below for crew quarters & facilities.   Could a super heavy land and be refueled by having LO2 & LCH4 tanks below decks?

Welcome to the party! :)

Could a F9 land on a cruise ship?  Not easily.. Built to hold +2,000 passengers and crew, cruise ships tend to be rather top heavy and their slab sides create a lot of windage, making it difficult to keep them completely stable at sea even when moving forward at a reasonable speed (watch the action of the waves in the upper deck pool next time you're on one and you'll see what I mean).  Of course you could chop the top 8-10 decks off, retaining the existing crew accommodations down near and below water-line, but it would be considerably cheaper to start with a vessel that is most of the way there already like BO are doing: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=45766.0
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/18/2020 01:10 am
Following along on a similar note, this comment posted in the BO Fleet thread by Sunworshipper late last year highlights one of the few advantages in SpX's approach to ASDS construction:
Quote
https://www.wuwf.org/post/port-pensacola-3-blue-origin (https://www.wuwf.org/post/port-pensacola-3-blue-origin)
At the end of the first few missions, the ship will return to Pensacola; but Selcer says that will eventually change out of necessity.

“We’ll finally get to the point where I don’t have enough time to get back here; we’ll have to work on it on the East Coast,” Selcer said. “But in the early parts of the program we’ll come back here and do all of the repairs here. Hopefully not too many – that’s what I’m worried about. That rocket’s hard on ships – that’s what I’m worried about – let me put it that way.

Using relatively cheap, basic and empty leased barges for the core of an ASDS rather than a more expensive ex-cruise ship, ferry or freighter ensures any damage caused by the rocket landing is limited and comparatively easy and cheap to fix - even to the extent of replacing the barge entirely if required, as we saw when 'Marmac 300' was retired.  Just sayin'..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 06/18/2020 02:04 pm
A certain S7 group just happens to have a newly-mothballed self-propelled semi-sub platform kitted out for handling cryogens, and have just failed in their application for state aid... It could even slot right back into its recently vacated berth at PoLB.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ShSch on 06/18/2020 11:53 pm
A certain S7 group just happens to have a newly-mothballed self-propelled semi-sub platform kitted out for handling cryogens, and have just failed in their application for state aid... It could even slot right back into its recently vacated berth at PoLB.
Elon has already addressed this possibility: "Directionally correct, but Zenit is an order of magnitude smaller than Starship system & doesn’t come back & land".

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1272975395806011392
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cwr on 06/20/2020 12:08 am
After JRTI was used on Starlink v1.0 L7 and OCISLY was used on Starlink v1.0 L8
I was expecting that JRTI would be used for the next Florida launch.
But OCISLY has just been towed out for Starlink v1.0 L9.

I can only assume that JRTI still has some work to finish or sustained
some damage on its last mission.
Does anybody have any insight that they can share?

Carl
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 06/20/2020 06:18 am
After JRTI was used on Starlink v1.0 L7 and OCISLY was used on Starlink v1.0 L8
I was expecting that JRTI would be used for the next Florida launch.
But OCISLY has just been towed out for Starlink v1.0 L9.

I can only assume that JRTI still has some work to finish or sustained
some damage on its last mission.
Does anybody have any insight that they can share?

Carl

Maybe JRTI is being reserved for GTO comsat type missions for further distance downrange recovery in rougher waters in the middle of the Atlantic. The ANASIS-II and the SXM 7 launches are coming up next month.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 06/20/2020 07:34 am
After JRTI was used on Starlink v1.0 L7 and OCISLY was used on Starlink v1.0 L8
I was expecting that JRTI would be used for the next Florida launch.
But OCISLY has just been towed out for Starlink v1.0 L9.

I can only assume that JRTI still has some work to finish or sustained
some damage on its last mission.
Does anybody have any insight that they can share?

Carl

Maybe JRTI is being reserved for GTO comsat type missions for further distance downrange recovery in rougher waters in the middle of the Atlantic. The ANASIS-II and the SXM 7 launches are coming up next month.
Would not make sense to only use JRTI on GTO missions. The reason she has bigger thrusters is because of the strong currents experienced in the Starlink landing zone.

https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1274127966088331267

Quote
JRTI is received some further construction work at the moment but is expected to be used for the GPS-III on the 30th
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cwr on 06/20/2020 04:33 pm
After JRTI was used on Starlink v1.0 L7 and OCISLY was used on Starlink v1.0 L8
I was expecting that JRTI would be used for the next Florida launch.
But OCISLY has just been towed out for Starlink v1.0 L9.

I can only assume that JRTI still has some work to finish or sustained
some damage on its last mission.
Does anybody have any insight that they can share?

Carl

Maybe JRTI is being reserved for GTO comsat type missions for further distance downrange recovery in rougher waters in the middle of the Atlantic. The ANASIS-II and the SXM 7 launches are coming up next month.
Would not make sense to only use JRTI on GTO missions. The reason she has bigger thrusters is because of the strong currents experienced in the Starlink landing zone.

https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1274127966088331267

Quote
JRTI is received some further construction work at the moment but is expected to be used for the GPS-III on the 30th

I think Andrew is probably right.
All the instances I can remember of a drone ship suffering damage or problems
with waves/current are with Starlink landings, so if JRTI and it's larger
engines was going to be used for a particular category I would have expected
it to be Starlink launches.

After all, we know the larger engines for OCISLY were acquired some time back.
I suspect that with the current cadence SpaceX does not want to take OCISLY out of service
to install the new engines.

Time will tell

Carl

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/04/2020 12:06 pm
https://twitter.com/spacecoast_stve/status/1279381991696277504

Quote
Judging by their positions on @MarineTraffic, this is as close as OCISLY and JRTI will be to each other as one departs and one returns.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 08/12/2020 05:28 pm
OCISLY as of 8/11/2020
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: r8ix on 08/12/2020 08:22 pm
Any word on why the boom around OCSILY?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 08/12/2020 11:16 pm
OCISLY as of 8/11/2020

She's looking a little neglected...  and could certainly do with a hull clean and a coat of paint.  :(

Any word on why the boom around OCSILY?

The boom is standard practice when docked alongside for a while with 'pollutants' (eg. diesel in the tanks) still on board.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 08/13/2020 10:06 am
OCISLY as of 8/11/2020
With those huffers in place, someone must be doing some work below the deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 08/13/2020 01:58 pm
OCISLY as of 8/11/2020

She's looking a little neglected...  and could certainly do with a hull clean and a coat of paint.  :(

Any word on why the boom around OCSILY?

The boom is standard practice when docked alongside for a while with 'pollutants' (eg. diesel in the tanks) still on board.
A lot of ports make you use that boom if there's a speck of oil or flaking paint on the hull. Just about any hull maintenance would call for it.  Diesel in the tanks shouldn't need it, but cleaning or transferring diesel or any other fluid might.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Frogstar_Robot on 08/13/2020 02:03 pm
There is a tanker hooked up alongside which reads "Cliff Berry Incorporated, Environmental Services", so likely some cleaning involved.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: r8ix on 08/13/2020 02:28 pm
Thanks. Just that I hadn't noticed it previously.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: alang on 08/15/2020 10:13 am
I know that there has been discussion of making recovery operations more automated, but is there a thread?
This piece about testing in the Atlantic of an Uncrewed Surface Vehicle is by Jonathan Amos:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-53787546
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 09/18/2020 04:50 am
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1306778373314826240

Quote
Current was too strong for droneship to hold station. Thrusters to be upgraded for future missions.

This doesn't make sense. JRTI was active for this mission, she is the droneship with the new thrusters.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cpushack on 09/18/2020 05:17 pm
I wonder if JRTI's new thrusters are capable of more power but there isn't enough generation capacity on deck to run them at full power? 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Asteroza on 09/23/2020 01:47 am
I wonder if JRTI's new thrusters are capable of more power but there isn't enough generation capacity on deck to run them at full power?

Keptin, we need moar powah!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/24/2020 04:21 am
What happened to the third droneship?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: danneely on 09/24/2020 04:56 am
What happened to the third droneship?

Never built.  Presumably it was put on hold due to the decline in west coast launches, combined with F9 getting powerful enough that FH was very rarely needed; collectively making a 3rd one unneccessary.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nevyn72 on 09/24/2020 06:44 am
What happened to the third droneship?

Never built.  Presumably it was put on hold due to the decline in west coast launches, combined with F9 getting powerful enough that FH was very rarely needed; collectively making a 3rd one unneccessary.

Let's hope it's just a temporary pause while they evolve the design for larger clientele....... 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 09/24/2020 08:14 am
What happened to the third droneship?

Never built.  Presumably it was put on hold due to the decline in west coast launches, combined with F9 getting powerful enough that FH was very rarely needed; collectively making a 3rd one unneccessary.

Let's hope it's just a temporary pause while they evolve the design for larger clientele.......

There's no reason for a third droneship. They only need 2 on the east coast and none on the west coast. The things Starship will one day launch from is hardly a droneship.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: tyrred on 09/24/2020 08:31 am
What happened to the third droneship?

Never built.  Presumably it was put on hold due to the decline in west coast launches, combined with F9 getting powerful enough that FH was very rarely needed; collectively making a 3rd one unneccessary.

Let's hope it's just a temporary pause while they evolve the design for larger clientele.......

There's no reason for a third droneship. They only need 2 on the east coast and none on the west coast. The things Starship will one day launch from is hardly a droneship.

Redundancy and increasing capability are great reasons, I think.
Current droneship quirks notwithstanding, of course  ;)
New droneships are just going to get bigger. Nobody wants to be on board a Superheavy landing, especially in the early days of testing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: klod on 09/24/2020 08:44 am
What happened to the third droneship?

Never built.  Presumably it was put on hold due to the decline in west coast launches, combined with F9 getting powerful enough that FH was very rarely needed; collectively making a 3rd one unneccessary.

Let's hope it's just a temporary pause while they evolve the design for larger clientele.......

There's no reason for a third droneship. They only need 2 on the east coast and none on the west coast. The things Starship will one day launch from is hardly a droneship.
In some case when FH would launch and there might be nessessity for maximum performance and all 3 booster have to land on droneship. Other case - western launches. No reason to lose booster. Other reasons - 40+ launches per year, almost 1 launch per week. Turnaround of 1 droneship - 7-8 days, without any delays. 3rd drone ship would provide more flexibility.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: danneely on 09/24/2020 11:17 am
What happened to the third droneship?

Never built.  Presumably it was put on hold due to the decline in west coast launches, combined with F9 getting powerful enough that FH was very rarely needed; collectively making a 3rd one unneccessary.

Let's hope it's just a temporary pause while they evolve the design for larger clientele.......

There's no reason for a third droneship. They only need 2 on the east coast and none on the west coast. The things Starship will one day launch from is hardly a droneship.
In some case when FH would launch and there might be nessessity for maximum performance and all 3 booster have to land on droneship. Other case - western launches. No reason to lose booster. Other reasons - 40+ launches per year, almost 1 launch per week. Turnaround of 1 droneship - 7-8 days, without any delays. 3rd drone ship would provide more flexibility.

I didn't think 3x drone ship landings was a viable option for FH because the amount of prop needed to slow the center core down would use up all the potential gain vs a 1xasds 2xrtls launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/24/2020 05:47 pm
What happened to the third droneship?

Never built.  Presumably it was put on hold due to the decline in west coast launches, combined with F9 getting powerful enough that FH was very rarely needed; collectively making a 3rd one unneccessary.

Let's hope it's just a temporary pause while they evolve the design for larger clientele.......

There's no reason for a third droneship. They only need 2 on the east coast and none on the west coast. The things Starship will one day launch from is hardly a droneship.
In some case when FH would launch and there might be nessessity for maximum performance and all 3 booster have to land on droneship. Other case - western launches. No reason to lose booster. Other reasons - 40+ launches per year, almost 1 launch per week. Turnaround of 1 droneship - 7-8 days, without any delays. 3rd drone ship would provide more flexibility.

I didn't think 3x drone ship landings was a viable option for FH because the amount of prop needed to slow the center core down would use up all the potential gain vs a 1xasds 2xrtls launch.
no. not having to boostback the sideboosters would mean more performance while still allowing full recovery.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 09/24/2020 06:07 pm
The problem is, if you then use that additional boostback propellant in the side boosters to accelerate the stack instead, you end up with the centre core going too fast to even perform a downrange recovery. If you stage that centre core early in order to slow it down propulsively, you lose basically all of the S2 velocity boost you gained by side-core downrange recovery (and need an extra two droneships in operation for no good reason). Side-core downrange recovery basically means either wasted effort, or centre-core expenditure.
If there is a tiny performance keyhole where payload mass and S2 target velocity combine to make it juuuuuust right for an all-cores-downrange recovery to be possibly but side-core boostback impossible, without also needing centre-core expenditure, it's still not worth spending the time and effort to produce an additional droneship and infrastructure to handle simultaneous triple-droneship operations for the exceptionally tiny fraction of missions where it might technically be possible.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/25/2020 03:44 am
The problem is, if you then use that additional boostback propellant in the side boosters to accelerate the stack instead, you end up with the centre core going too fast to even perform a downrange recovery. If you stage that centre core early in order to slow it down propulsively, you lose basically all of the S2 velocity boost you gained by side-core downrange recovery (and need an extra two droneships in operation for no good reason). Side-core downrange recovery basically means either wasted effort, or centre-core expenditure.
If there is a tiny performance keyhole where payload mass and S2 target velocity combine to make it juuuuuust right for an all-cores-downrange recovery to be possibly but side-core boostback impossible, without also needing centre-core expenditure, it's still not worth spending the time and effort to produce an additional droneship and infrastructure to handle simultaneous triple-droneship operations for the exceptionally tiny fraction of missions where it might technically be possible.
I think the performance benefit is not enormous but it is also larger than you're implying here. The additional operational costs are not that great. If they needed max reusable performance from Falcon Heavy on a regular basis (but not expending a core), then I think it'd be easily worth it.

But it might be too rare of an occurrence to be worth the additional droneship. There aren't that many Falcon Heavy launches. There were only 2 last year and none for this year (or scheduled for this year). If one of every four Falcon Heavy launches could take advantage of this (which is an optimistic number), that might only be once every other year or even less. By the time there's a flight right in that performance category, they very well may have Starship doing orbital flights.

EDIT: A sort of crazy option would be if the Starship droneship ends up being large enough to do both boosters on one ship...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 09/25/2020 04:08 am
I think the performance benefit is not enormous but it is also larger than you're implying here. The additional operational costs are not that great. If they needed max reusable performance from Falcon Heavy on a regular basis (but not expending a core), then I think it'd be easily worth it.

But it might be too rare of an occurrence to be worth the additional droneship. There aren't that many Falcon Heavy launches. There were only 2 last year and none for this year (or scheduled for this year). If one of every four Falcon Heavy launches could take advantage of this (which is an optimistic number), that might only be once every other year or even less. By the time there's a flight right in that performance category, they very well may have Starship doing orbital flights.

EDIT: A sort of crazy option would be if the Starship droneship ends up being large enough to do both boosters on one ship...

Well, for starters, I'd say the cost of building, maintaining, parking and crewing and additional (IIRC they were talking larger too!) ASDS is significantly great.  Certainly too great to warrant it if it isn't going to be needed for a year or two and then not very often.

it's also reasonable to think the current thruster selection/performance/design issues they're working through might be a factor in deciding to put any future builds on hold for now.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/25/2020 04:33 am
I think the performance benefit is not enormous but it is also larger than you're implying here. The additional operational costs are not that great. If they needed max reusable performance from Falcon Heavy on a regular basis (but not expending a core), then I think it'd be easily worth it.

But it might be too rare of an occurrence to be worth the additional droneship. There aren't that many Falcon Heavy launches. There were only 2 last year and none for this year (or scheduled for this year). If one of every four Falcon Heavy launches could take advantage of this (which is an optimistic number), that might only be once every other year or even less. By the time there's a flight right in that performance category, they very well may have Starship doing orbital flights.

EDIT: A sort of crazy option would be if the Starship droneship ends up being large enough to do both boosters on one ship...

Well, for starters, I'd say the cost of building, maintaining, parking and crewing and additional (IIRC they were talking larger too!) ASDS is significantly great.  Certainly too great to warrant it if it isn't going to be needed for a year or two and then not very often.

it's also reasonable to think the current thruster selection/performance/design issues they're working through might be a factor in deciding to put any future builds on hold for now.
The maintenance and operations and parking costs are probably very small in comparison to even a single recovered booster every couple years (worth, what, $30 million at least?).

As far as build costs, I agree. They might only ever need this once. Better to invest in a Starship-scale droneship which would be more relevant to SpaceX's future needs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: erv on 09/25/2020 06:11 am
I do not see any real reason for SS/SH droneship to be larger than the current ones.
Well except maybe for stability and stuff like that. But then, even supertankers and huge container ships get rocked pretty much in the high seas, as can be seen in countless videos on YT.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nevyn72 on 09/25/2020 08:57 am
Maybe a third ASDS would be desirable so you don't need to wait for one to return, be unloaded and redeployed after a Falcon-heavy launch before your next launch recovery is possible?

I still suspect they have held off on the third because the want to redesign to make it suitable for Starship & Superheavy landings as well as Falcon9 usage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 09/25/2020 02:22 pm
I do not see any real reason for SS/SH droneship to be larger than the current ones.
Well except maybe for stability and stuff like that. But then, even supertankers and huge container ships get rocked pretty much in the high seas, as can be seen in countless videos on YT.
Spaceships land better if their feet aren't hanging over the side and they're not going to land in a hurricane. If you think you can always keep a large barge within a foot in seas with wind, current and waves all unpredictable and from different directions, you might want to go out and try doing it. Risking $50 million spaceships over and over again to save an extra $4 million on your recovery vessel would be pretty short sighted.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/25/2020 03:46 pm
I do not see any real reason for SS/SH droneship to be larger than the current ones.
Well except maybe for stability and stuff like that. But then, even supertankers and huge container ships get rocked pretty much in the high seas, as can be seen in countless videos on YT.
I agree it doesn't need to be 10x bigger or anything like that. Maybe 50% larger in each lateral dimension would be about right.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: anof on 09/25/2020 04:37 pm
I do not see any real reason for SS/SH droneship to be larger than the current ones.
Well except maybe for stability and stuff like that. But then, even supertankers and huge container ships get rocked pretty much in the high seas, as can be seen in countless videos on YT.
I agree it doesn't need to be 10x bigger or anything like that. Maybe 50% larger in each lateral dimension would be about right.

Getting too big would make it not be able to use the Panama Canal.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Okie_Steve on 09/25/2020 05:20 pm
That basically means any bigger if I remember the last ASDS transit correctly.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/25/2020 05:24 pm
I do not see any real reason for SS/SH droneship to be larger than the current ones.
Well except maybe for stability and stuff like that. But then, even supertankers and huge container ships get rocked pretty much in the high seas, as can be seen in countless videos on YT.
I agree it doesn't need to be 10x bigger or anything like that. Maybe 50% larger in each lateral dimension would be about right.

Getting too big would make it not be able to use the Panama Canal.
Not the worst thing since basically all flights now are on the Atlantic/Caribbean  side. Additionally, they may still be able to temporarily chop the sides off as they did with previous Panama Canal transits. Or just take the long way.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 09/25/2020 05:54 pm
Or weld a few Marmacs together, and cut them apart to transition the canal if required (as the 'wings' were cut and rewelded previously).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: danneely on 09/25/2020 06:30 pm
That basically means any bigger if I remember the last ASDS transit correctly.

If the current model can transit with wings folded up. they'd have some width growth room with bigger wings.  Longer isn't a problem.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: erv on 09/26/2020 06:15 am
I do not see any real reason for SS/SH droneship to be larger than the current ones.
Well except maybe for stability and stuff like that. But then, even supertankers and huge container ships get rocked pretty much in the high seas, as can be seen in countless videos on YT.
Spaceships land better if their feet aren't hanging over the side and they're not going to land in a hurricane. If you think you can always keep a large barge within a foot in seas with wind, current and waves all unpredictable and from different directions, you might want to go out and try doing it. Risking $50 million spaceships over and over again to save an extra $4 million on your recovery vessel would be pretty short sighted.

Emphasis mine
Well, my point is that Falcon 9 with legs extended has "diameter" larger than 9m, so actually SS or SH needs less space with their current leg design. That said, we know that legs v2 will be wider, but do not know how much, yet. Time and Elon will show. :)
Agreed on the hurricane part - I brought the supertanker thing up just to find at least some justification. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: aero on 09/26/2020 08:40 pm
I do not see any real reason for SS/SH droneship to be larger than the current ones.
Well except maybe for stability and stuff like that. But then, even supertankers and huge container ships get rocked pretty much in the high seas, as can be seen in countless videos on YT.
Spaceships land better if their feet aren't hanging over the side and they're not going to land in a hurricane. If you think you can always keep a large barge within a foot in seas with wind, current and waves all unpredictable and from different directions, you might want to go out and try doing it. Risking $50 million spaceships over and over again to save an extra $4 million on your recovery vessel would be pretty short sighted.

Emphasis mine
Well, my point is that Falcon 9 with legs extended has "diameter" larger than 9m, so actually SS or SH needs less space with their current leg design. That said, we know that legs v2 will be wider, but do not know how much, yet. Time and Elon will show. :)
Agreed on the hurricane part - I brought the supertanker thing up just to find at least some justification. :)
 

Who remembers what the leg span is on the Falcon 9 booster? I know they stick out quite a ways.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 09/27/2020 11:26 am
Seems like (https://fcc.report/ELS/Space-Exploration-Holdings-LLC/0773-EX-CN-2020/259301) the SpaceX fleet hasnt got Starlink terminals yet. But soon.

The linked doc is an FCC filling, seeking experimental authorization to use terminals on the fleet (10 units), for a 24 months perion. Filled   15. Sept 2020.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 10/04/2020 02:29 pm
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1312760295228547073

Musk confirms "A Shortfall of Gravitas"...  Details hopefully to follow.

Expediter for F9 launches?  SS compatible? Inquiring minds want to know!

Is it just starting construction or is it about to show up over the horizon?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 10/04/2020 02:51 pm
Yes please.

I have no reason to think this is what is coming.  But it has been a long time since this ASDS was mentioned, SpaceX always iterates and has learned a lot about recovery operations.

Fingers crossed for a self propelled ship that can station keep in tougher conditions.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 10/08/2020 09:00 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=343W6yFUnNA

The distance between JRTI and OCISLY, is this the kind of distance we would expect for FH missions with dual droneship landings?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: john57sharp on 10/13/2020 09:41 am
Apologies if this has been covered before, I have tried searching and reading back....

I was wondering whether the excess RP1 is detanked from F9 after landing on an ASDS or is it allowed to stay in the tanks until arrival back at the Hanger?

TIA

John
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 10/25/2020 02:03 pm
Apologies if this has been covered before, I have tried searching and reading back....

I was wondering whether the excess RP1 is detanked from F9 after landing on an ASDS or is it allowed to stay in the tanks until arrival back at the Hanger?

Quote from: SpaceX
SpaceX personnel are mobilized at the port to receive and off-load the booster. The booster is then placed into processing fixtures on-shore that allow any residual fuel to be offloaded into storage tanks, landing gear removed, ordnance removed, and to ultimately facilitate on-road transport to a SpaceX facility for further processing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: john57sharp on 11/01/2020 10:22 am
Thanks Jansen
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Twark_Main on 11/06/2020 10:18 pm
Who remembers what the leg span is on the Falcon 9 booster? I know they stick out quite a ways.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/437761896028975104
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 11/15/2020 11:37 am
As a side note, the recent episode of The Mandalorian mentioned the SpaceX drone ship " Of Course I still Love You" in Aurebesh on the Din Jarin's Razor Crest information screen when landing on the Mon Calamari planet floating platform.

Reference here at 2:30in this easter egg video from Rockstars.

https://youtu.be/Se4YnlOymkM
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 11/20/2020 10:42 pm
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1329924788253560835

ASDS now Starlink enabled
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: bstrong on 11/27/2020 04:04 am
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but JRTI undergoing refurbishment last fall in Morgan City is visible in Google Maps: https://goo.gl/maps/QfS8psHaYfMf7u9a8

Some background on the shipyard:
https://ladcompanies.com/about-us/
https://www.daily-review.com/news-local-business/local-company-plays-role-spacex-launch

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nevyn72 on 11/27/2020 06:53 am
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1312760295228547073

Musk confirms "A Shortfall of Gravitas"...  Details hopefully to follow.

Expediter for F9 launches?  SS compatible? Inquiring minds want to know!

Is it just starting construction or is it about to show up over the horizon?

It's been nearly 2 months since this tweet from Elon, has there been any further news and/or sightings?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 11/29/2020 09:33 pm
It's been nearly 2 months since this tweet from Elon, has there been any further news and/or sightings?

It's most likely tucked up in a builder's shed in a shipyard someplace under construction.  It takes a lot longer than 2 months to build a new vessel of any kind.. especially a bespoke one in the middle of a pandemic.

Unless someone here knows someone-who-knows-someone-who-can-leak-pictures, I suspect the first we'll see of it is either the official launching ('splash day') or sea trials.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: danneely on 11/29/2020 10:14 pm
It's been nearly 2 months since this tweet from Elon, has there been any further news and/or sightings?

It's most likely tucked up in a builder's shed in a shipyard someplace under construction.  It takes a lot longer than 2 months to build a new vessel of any kind.. especially a bespoke one in the middle of a pandemic.

Unless someone here knows someone-who-knows-someone-who-can-leak-pictures, I suspect the first we'll see of it is either the official launching ('splash day') or sea trials.

AFAIK SpaceX has leased a 3rd barge like the first two ASDS's a few years ago, and it's just been sitting in port somewhere waiting to be modified.  They're not building anything from scratch.

Still not going to be a fast job, they spent months on the recent upgrades, but they're not building anything from scratch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/29/2020 11:20 pm
It's been nearly 2 months since this tweet from Elon, has there been any further news and/or sightings?

It's most likely tucked up in a builder's shed in a shipyard someplace under construction.  It takes a lot longer than 2 months to build a new vessel of any kind.. especially a bespoke one in the middle of a pandemic.

Unless someone here knows someone-who-knows-someone-who-can-leak-pictures, I suspect the first we'll see of it is either the official launching ('splash day') or sea trials.

It seems unlikely SX will just build/convert another barge similar to the current ASDS units just for a service life of a few years.

My guess is that somewhere in either Japan or South Korea someone is building the next generation ASDS as an oversize barge or off-shore supply ship.

Why Japan? Because Maezawa-san might want an ASDS landing in Tokyo Bay with a locally build vessel. No Japanese government could refuse to give landing permission for the return of the #dearMoon excursion to Japanese waters if asked, IMO.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Asteroza on 11/30/2020 03:30 am
It's been nearly 2 months since this tweet from Elon, has there been any further news and/or sightings?

It's most likely tucked up in a builder's shed in a shipyard someplace under construction.  It takes a lot longer than 2 months to build a new vessel of any kind.. especially a bespoke one in the middle of a pandemic.

Unless someone here knows someone-who-knows-someone-who-can-leak-pictures, I suspect the first we'll see of it is either the official launching ('splash day') or sea trials.

It seems unlikely SX will just build/convert another barge similar to the current ASDS units just for a service life of a few years.

My guess is that somewhere in either Japan or South Korea someone is building the next generation ASDS as an oversize barge or off-shore supply ship.

Why Japan? Because Maezawa-san might want an ASDS landing in Tokyo Bay with a locally build vessel. No Japanese government could refuse to give landing permission for the return of the #dearMoon excursion to Japanese waters if asked, IMO.

You have no idea the amount of teeth sucking "that's difficult" meetings that would actually require. Seriously, the bureaucratic teeth sucking could be heard from orbit, for years, not counting the echos which might go a decade.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: darkenfast on 11/30/2020 07:59 am
If they want to land Starships and/or Superheavies, the cheapest option might be something like a widened Marmac 400 series barge.  It's a hundred feet longer, but the same width as a Marmac 300.  Maybe it would need the widening, depending on what is possible with the "wing" sponsons. 

I think continuing with the tug operations makes the most sense, for both economy and flexibility.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 11/30/2020 03:20 pm
It's been nearly 2 months since this tweet from Elon, has there been any further news and/or sightings?

It's most likely tucked up in a builder's shed in a shipyard someplace under construction.  It takes a lot longer than 2 months to build a new vessel of any kind.. especially a bespoke one in the middle of a pandemic.

Unless someone here knows someone-who-knows-someone-who-can-leak-pictures, I suspect the first we'll see of it is either the official launching ('splash day') or sea trials.

It seems unlikely SX will just build/convert another barge similar to the current ASDS units just for a service life of a few years.

My guess is that somewhere in either Japan or South Korea someone is building the next generation ASDS as an oversize barge or off-shore supply ship.

Why Japan? Because Maezawa-san might want an ASDS landing in Tokyo Bay with a locally build vessel. No Japanese government could refuse to give landing permission for the return of the #dearMoon excursion to Japanese waters if asked, IMO.

I can easily imagine an evolved purpose built ASDS being designed and constructed.  A self propelled vessel that can get on station and back to port quicker and ride out tougher seas to widen the acceptable landing conditions.

a new ASDS would be cheap compared to some of the things that SpaceX is doing, but also, if they are looking to get to 40-50 launches per year they will need quicker ASDS cycle times.

It's an investment in unlocking a larger launch revenue stream and Starlink enabler.

No need for it to be built in Asia.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DistantTemple on 11/30/2020 03:54 pm
Agreed. Yes speed to being on station and returning to port, and thus the drone shop being available for another landing.

 Also being somehow able to protect a landed booster better in rough weather and poor sea-state. This is difficult. Active stabilization will likely help, as will speed running the gauntlet of rough conditions -if the speed itself doesn't cause motion that threatens the booster!
Could there be a high-level grasp of some kind? It seems really difficult!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: danneely on 11/30/2020 04:26 pm
Agreed. Yes speed to being on station and returning to port, and thus the drone shop being available for another landing.

 Also being somehow able to protect a landed booster better in rough weather and poor sea-state. This is difficult. Active stabilization will likely help, as will speed running the gauntlet of rough conditions -if the speed itself doesn't cause motion that threatens the booster!
Could there be a high-level grasp of some kind? It seems really difficult!

There does appear to be some room for an upgraded octograbber device after a recent booster nearly slid overboard despite being grabbed; but ultimately if you want a platform that's fast and stable in rougher sea conditions a barge is the wrong choice even though they're the cheapest and most easily hacked platforms available. 

You need an actual sea going ship; and probably want to have it upgraded with cruise ship style roll stabilizers.  When that's done, you'll probably end up with something that looks a lot like what Blue Origin intends to land New Glenn boosters on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Origin_landing_platform_ship
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 11/30/2020 04:42 pm

There does appear to be some room for an upgraded octograbber device after a recent booster nearly slid overboard despite being grabbed

Just to be clear: there's no indication one way or another that the booster slid across the deck "despite being grabbed" or did so before the Octograbber was able to secure it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 12/01/2020 08:47 am
The droneships seem adequate for the role of landing boosters, the downside only comes from needing to drag them to and from port to get boosters back and to get the droneship back into position. Sure, building more droneships to take up the slack whilst the previous one is returned to port and then returned to the landing site is one option to handle an increased launch rate, but there's another: stop dragging the droneships back and forth all the time.
Build a single 'fast' (compared to a tugged barge) transport with a crane capable of lifting a booster off of a barge, and supplies to replenish droneship stores (mainly generator fuel). Ship cores back and forth with your transporter, and leave the droneships on station unless they need maintenance.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 12/01/2020 08:23 pm
The droneships seem adequate for the role of landing boosters, the downside only comes from needing to drag them to and from port to get boosters back and to get the droneship back into position. Sure, building more droneships to take up the slack whilst the previous one is returned to port and then returned to the landing site is one option to handle an increased launch rate, but there's another: stop dragging the droneships back and forth all the time.
Build a single 'fast' (compared to a tugged barge) transport with a crane capable of lifting a booster off of a barge, and supplies to replenish droneship stores (mainly generator fuel). Ship cores back and forth with your transporter, and leave the droneships on station unless they need maintenance.

A ship with a crane capable of lifting a Falcon 9 core have been discuss previously. The consensus at the time was that it is not worth the expense of building/converting a specialized large transport ship with a big crane along with the running cost for such a ship.

Also don't think the current droneships are capable of staying on station for more than a couple of weeks in the Atlantic. The original barge design was for mostly coastal and inshore usage AIUI. Plus a support ship on station to operate the droneship, couldn't have the droneship unattended in the middle of the Atlantic.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: darkenfast on 12/02/2020 09:41 am
Actually, the Marmacs and their tugs do cross oceans.  The original ASDS, for example, was towed down around South America, were it was submerged and then used to lift an oceanographic research vessel that had been prematurely launched and then tossed on a beach by a major earthquake.  I seem to remember one of them going across to Africa.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 12/03/2020 10:31 pm
The droneships seem adequate for the role of landing boosters, the downside only comes from needing to drag them to and from port to get boosters back and to get the droneship back into position. Sure, building more droneships to take up the slack whilst the previous one is returned to port and then returned to the landing site is one option to handle an increased launch rate, but there's another: stop dragging the droneships back and forth all the time.
Build a single 'fast' (compared to a tugged barge) transport with a crane capable of lifting a booster off of a barge, and supplies to replenish droneship stores (mainly generator fuel). Ship cores back and forth with your transporter, and leave the droneships on station unless they need maintenance.

A ship with a crane capable of lifting a Falcon 9 core have been discuss previously. The consensus at the time was that it is not worth the expense of building/converting a specialized large transport ship with a big crane along with the running cost for such a ship.

Yep, you're right.. this has all been discussed previously and nothing has changed since.  If they wanted to speed up travel times, they don't have to build anything - just pay Dockwise (Uber for Ships) to pick them up - but, funnily enough, they're not doing that either.  So far as building a specialised ship goes, all SpX need do is watch how Blue Origin's ship works out for them time/cost wise... thus far, it's not looking good.

Also don't think the current droneships are capable of staying on station for more than a couple of weeks in the Atlantic. The original barge design was for mostly coastal and inshore usage AIUI. Plus a support ship on station to operate the droneship, couldn't have the droneship unattended in the middle of the Atlantic.

Yep, they really do have to pick the weather - and they've been through weather bad enough already to know the limits of what the ASDS's can handle.  IIRC, if the forecast is not great and they couldn't wait/couldn't return to land, their SOP is to leave the ASDS safely at home and ditch the stage in the ocean.

The key issue is that the Marmac barges (of any size) are all flat-bottomed, shallow-draft vessels, and whilst that is ideal for conversion to a stable ASDS platform for calmish water landings, 'active stability control' would achieve very little because they simply are not designed to handle all the Atlantic could throw at them: the barge would be fine, but all SpX's fancy gear would be trashed.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 12/03/2020 10:41 pm
Yep, you're right.. this has all been discussed previously and nothing has changed since.  If they wanted to speed up travel times, they don't have to build anything - just pay Dockwise (Uber for Ships) to pick them up - but, funnily enough, they're not doing that either.  So far as building a specialised ship goes, all SpX need do is watch how Blue Origin's ship works out for them time/cost wise... thus far, it's not looking good.

How many years till we see how the Blue ship handles things?

Elon doesn't worry about what others are doing. 

I suspect that we won't hear anything then one day a bad ass 'Shortfall of Gravitas' will just show up, maybe from a rolling fog.  1 or 2 days out and 1 or 2 days back.  A 7 day cycle would really improve things and cut some days from the reprocessing time.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: danneely on 12/04/2020 05:12 am
Yep, you're right.. this has all been discussed previously and nothing has changed since.  If they wanted to speed up travel times, they don't have to build anything - just pay Dockwise (Uber for Ships) to pick them up - but, funnily enough, they're not doing that either.  So far as building a specialised ship goes, all SpX need do is watch how Blue Origin's ship works out for them time/cost wise... thus far, it's not looking good.

I'm skeptical, that a standard cargo ship deck is rated to take - even briefly - getting blasted by a ~500MW blow torch; which would rule out using random off the shelf ships.

And while BO's ship is currently a time/money pit; that's because they're not flying and landing boosters on it.  SpaceX wouldn't have that problem.  OTOH unless landing weather scrubs start to become a limiting factor in their launch tempo, of they decide to do down range landings with Superheavy - and need a bigger platform to do so - their recent upgrades to the existing ASDS fleet say they think the current design is good enough.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MarekCyzio on 12/11/2020 03:24 pm
OCISLY with 1058.4 stuck on Octograbber - as of 12/10/2020
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 12/14/2020 02:01 am
Yep, you're right.. this has all been discussed previously and nothing has changed since.  If they wanted to speed up travel times, they don't have to build anything - just pay Dockwise (Uber for Ships) to pick them up - but, funnily enough, they're not doing that either.  So far as building a specialised ship goes, all SpX need do is watch how Blue Origin's ship works out for them time/cost wise... thus far, it's not looking good.

I'm skeptical, that a standard cargo ship deck is rated to take - even briefly - getting blasted by a ~500MW blow torch; which would rule out using random off the shelf ships.

Just in case it wasn't clear, the process I'm referring to is: (a) tow ASDS out of harbour as usual, (b) Dockwise vessel picks up entire ASDS and transports it to recovery area at 15kts (c) Dockwise vessel drops off ASDS to resume normal operations.

It's do-able.. expensive and possibly totally unnecessary for all but maybe the most distant mid-atlantic recovery ops.. but it's all do-able.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Asteroza on 12/14/2020 08:26 am
Yep, you're right.. this has all been discussed previously and nothing has changed since.  If they wanted to speed up travel times, they don't have to build anything - just pay Dockwise (Uber for Ships) to pick them up - but, funnily enough, they're not doing that either.  So far as building a specialised ship goes, all SpX need do is watch how Blue Origin's ship works out for them time/cost wise... thus far, it's not looking good.

I'm skeptical, that a standard cargo ship deck is rated to take - even briefly - getting blasted by a ~500MW blow torch; which would rule out using random off the shelf ships.

Just in case it wasn't clear, the process I'm referring to is: (a) tow ASDS out of harbour as usual, (b) Dockwise vessel picks up entire ASDS and transports it to recovery area at 15kts (c) Dockwise vessel drops off ASDS to resume normal operations.

It's do-able.. expensive and possibly totally unnecessary for all but maybe the most distant mid-atlantic recovery ops.. but it's all do-able.

Those heavy lift ships like Dockwise uses absolutely do not like any waves at all when submerged. Onload/offload ops at sea are heavily choreographed with weather forecasts precisely due to this. The insurance charges are nothing to be laughed at, as so many of those ships have sunk.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 01/05/2021 06:47 pm
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1346503659996274690
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 01/08/2021 07:58 am
Anyone have insight into the OCISLY upgrades?

Specifically:

What are they upgrading? New thrusters?  Electrical?

How long will it take? Are they doing it in phases or straight shot?

Will the experience from JRTI enable a much faster process?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 01/17/2021 06:30 pm
Looks like the upgrades last week were mostly electrical. Thrusters look the same.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mlindner on 01/26/2021 08:50 pm
Have we heard anything about Shortfall of Gravitas? Do we even know where it's located at/being built?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 01/26/2021 11:31 pm
Have we heard anything about Shortfall of Gravitas? Do we even know where it's located at/being built?
Just a couple of tweets once a year with Elon talking about how it will be a droneship. However, if the oil rigs have taught us anything, it is that it is highly unlikely ASoG is well into construction otherwise it would have been found. So pretty unlikely to see said droneship enter service in 2021

The original need for it in mid 2019 was crapped in favour of bringing JRTI over
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 01/27/2021 12:17 am
Anyone have insight into the OCISLY upgrades?

Specifically:

What are they upgrading? New thrusters?  Electrical?

How long will it take? Are they doing it in phases or straight shot?

Will the experience from JRTI enable a much faster process?
I'm told it will be in phases.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 01/27/2021 10:49 am
However, if the oil rigs have taught us anything, it is that it is highly unlikely ASoG is well into construction otherwise it would have been found.
It took 6 months from the rigs being purchased to anyone figuring out SpaceX had bought them. ASoG could very easily go under the RADAR.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 01/28/2021 10:26 pm
However, if the oil rigs have taught us anything, it is that it is highly unlikely ASoG is well into construction otherwise it would have been found.
It took 6 months from the rigs being purchased to anyone figuring out SpaceX had bought them. ASoG could very easily go under the RADAR.

100% agree.  Nothing tells us to expect the same form factor either.

I'd expect a self propelled vehicle that can move faster would be highly desirable.  They could be working on it in any number of locations.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 02/08/2021 08:47 pm
https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1358893627762688000
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 02/10/2021 11:11 pm
SpaceX has just been granted authorization to operate Starlink onboard ASDS at port and at sea.

Application:
https://apps.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=259301

Grant:
https://apps.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=267270
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 03/06/2021 12:00 am
https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1367873205592014852

Could be ASOG or another new ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: su27k on 04/07/2021 06:11 pm
ASOG coming soon:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1379745815678230529

Quote
Q: Any news or pictures of the new A Shortfall Of Gravitas droneship?

A: Coming soon. Crazy number of launches this year!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hamish.Student on 04/08/2021 01:34 am
ASOG coming soon:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1379745815678230529

Quote
Q: Any news or pictures of the new A Shortfall Of Gravitas droneship?

A: Coming soon. Crazy number of launches this year!
 
 
Sure, We havent heard that before.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CT Space Guy on 04/13/2021 11:26 am
I wonder if the Shelia Bordelon might be capable of towing the ASDS? Then get rid of all the other ships in the fleet and use just the Shelia Bordelon?

Then rent a tug when they need a second ASDS
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SDSmith on 04/13/2021 12:05 pm
I wonder if the Shelia Bordelon might be capable of towing the ASDS? Then get rid of all the other ships in the fleet and use just the Shelia Bordelon?

Then rent a tug when they need a second ASDS
That might work but I think the fairings are farther down range than the barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 04/14/2021 07:09 am
ASOG coming soon:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1379745815678230529

Quote
Q: Any news or pictures of the new A Shortfall Of Gravitas droneship?

A: Coming soon. Crazy number of launches this year!
 
 
Sure, We havent heard that before.

I mean this time they actually have a possible timeline. SpaceflightNowis reporting Vandenburg Starlink launches as soon as July. Which means, surely she should be in a shipyard like Morgan City or somewhere and be recognisable.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Tommyboy on 04/14/2021 04:22 pm
ASOG coming soon:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1379745815678230529

Quote
Q: Any news or pictures of the new A Shortfall Of Gravitas droneship?

A: Coming soon. Crazy number of launches this year!
 
 
Sure, We havent heard that before.

I mean this time they actually have a possible timeline. SpaceflightNowis reporting Vandenburg Starlink launches as soon as July. Which means, surely she should be in a shipyard like Morgan City or somewhere and be recognisable.
And don't forget that the third octograbber also has been spotted.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/04/2021 08:18 pm


I still say ASoG's name should be changed to Zeno's Paradox, because it's always coming, but never actually arriving.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 05/04/2021 09:27 pm


I still say ASoG's name should be changed to Zeno's Paradox, because it's always coming, but never actually arriving.

I think it's because it must be a custom built vessel.  Self propelled with a crane on one end of the deck, station keeping abilities for rougher seas.

It must be!

Edit: Maybe it will just show up on the West Coast before July for the Starlink launches coming up.  2nd half of 2021 is going to have one heck of a launch cadence.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DAZ on 05/04/2021 10:35 pm


I still say ASoG's name should be changed to Zeno's Paradox, because it's always coming, but never actually arriving.

Sorry, Zeno's Paradox is taken by Blue Origin.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/05/2021 01:01 am


I still say ASoG's name should be changed to Zeno's Paradox, because it's always coming, but never actually arriving.

I think it's because it must be a custom built vessel.  Self propelled with a crane on one end of the deck, station keeping abilities for rougher seas.

It must be!

Edit: Maybe it will just show up on the West Coast before July for the Starlink launches coming up.  2nd half of 2021 is going to have one heck of a launch cadence.

Where it shows up is another question (besides "if" and "when").  I thought most/all Starlink launches will continue to be from the Cape, no? Especially now that they can go polar from there?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RollieRambo on 05/05/2021 03:05 am
(edit/gongora:  moved from a thread it didn't belong in to a thread it might belong in.  If anyone has a better suggestion on where it belongs let me know)

I have a question and honestly don’t know where to pose it so if it doesnt belong here please let me know.

It seems like with the cadence they are trying to accomplish they are getting to a point where they can turn around launches faster than they can turn around drone ships. Knowing it takes days to pull those things out to landing zones and then back, couldn’t they process the booster at sea using a ship like Shelia Bordelon that has a crane attached to lay the booster down and ship it back much faster? This way they could essentially leave two ASDS out at sea ready to land a booster at anytime and just need two ships that can go back and forth with boosters saving tremendous time? Plus if the booster is horizontal maybe even streamline its processing at port to just roll it right off the ship back to the processing facility?

I just feel like if they really want to get the amount of launches they expect to, these slower parts of the process are going to become bottlenecks pretty quickly. Love to hear some thoughts on this, thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 05/05/2021 08:32 am
Find a new home port for the ASDS to operate from, near the downrange landing spot. It may add a day or two to get the boosters back to Florida, but can speed up turn around of ASDS, especially for Starlink launches.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 05/05/2021 09:25 am
Find a new home port for the ASDS to operate from, near the downrange landing spot. It may add a day or two to get the boosters back to Florida, but can speed up turn around of ASDS, especially for Starlink launches.

This has been discussed before.  Processing boosters outside of Port Canaveral would mean road transport, at the very least requiring the complete removal of the legs.  The additional time stripping down the booster for transport, plus the transport itself, would more than cancel out the day or so that would be saved by a shorter ASDS trip.  GEO launches would definitely be a net loss compared to Port Canaveral.

As long as ASDS roundtrip and unloading is shorter than launchpad turnaround time, it's just fine the way it is.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Cheapchips on 05/05/2021 11:04 am


I still say ASoG's name should be changed to Zeno's Paradox, because it's always coming, but never actually arriving.

:)

Although Sleeper Service might be a better Bank's reference.

Spoiler:  It takes a while but does arrive eventually.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/05/2021 12:50 pm


I still say ASoG's name should be changed to Zeno's Paradox, because it's always coming, but never actually arriving.

I think it's because it must be a custom built vessel.  Self propelled with a crane on one end of the deck, station keeping abilities for rougher seas.

It must be!

Edit: Maybe it will just show up on the West Coast before July for the Starlink launches coming up.  2nd half of 2021 is going to have one heck of a launch cadence.

Reliable source says SpaceX asked McDonough Marine about leasing MARMAC 400, their largest barge, maybe as recently as a few months ago. But the 400 was already leased to another customer.

If SpaceX was in fact hoping to refit MARMAC 400 as ASoG, that suggests that they're planning to continue with the barge-refit scheme for ASoG, and that they probably just went to a different barge leasing company to find something similar to MARMAC 400.

The pros of this approach are: proven operations model, relatively low up-front cost, minimal lead time (vs new construction or refit of a self-propelled ship a la Blue Origin), ease of reconfiguration, ease of permitting now that Coast Guard is familiar with how they operate, etc.

So I'm going to predict ASoG will be a barge like JRtI and OCISLY, but on steroids.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Okie_Steve on 05/05/2021 01:14 pm
Landing a rocket and transporting a rocket would seem to have different if overlapping requirements. If the drone ships could indeed home port down range for landings would some sort of dedicated higher speed "clipper (space) ship" transport make sense for the seaborne RTLS portion of the journey?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 05/05/2021 05:39 pm


I still say ASoG's name should be changed to Zeno's Paradox, because it's always coming, but never actually arriving.

I think it's because it must be a custom built vessel.  Self propelled with a crane on one end of the deck, station keeping abilities for rougher seas.

It must be!

Edit: Maybe it will just show up on the West Coast before July for the Starlink launches coming up.  2nd half of 2021 is going to have one heck of a launch cadence.

Reliable source says SpaceX asked McDonough Marine about leasing MARMAC 400, their largest barge, maybe as recently as a few months ago. But the 400 was already leased to another customer.

If SpaceX was in fact hoping to refit MARMAC 400 as ASoG, that suggests that they're planning to continue with the barge-refit scheme for ASoG, and that they probably just went to a different barge leasing company to find something similar to MARMAC 400.

The pros of this approach are: proven operations model, relatively low up-front cost, minimal lead time (vs new construction or refit of a self-propelled ship a la Blue Origin), ease of reconfiguration, ease of permitting now that Coast Guard is familiar with how they operate, etc.

So I'm going to predict ASoG will be a barge like JRtI and OCISLY, but on steroids.

You're probably right.  It does seem like an area ripe for improvement, but F9 operations is not a long term vehicle plan for them.

Carry on with what they know.  A 2-4 week cycle time on the west coast should be enough to support the needed flight cadence.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 05/05/2021 08:44 pm


I still say ASoG's name should be changed to Zeno's Paradox, because it's always coming, but never actually arriving.

I think it's because it must be a custom built vessel.  Self propelled with a crane on one end of the deck, station keeping abilities for rougher seas.

It must be!

Edit: Maybe it will just show up on the West Coast before July for the Starlink launches coming up.  2nd half of 2021 is going to have one heck of a launch cadence.

Reliable source says SpaceX asked McDonough Marine about leasing MARMAC 400, their largest barge, maybe as recently as a few months ago. But the 400 was already leased to another customer.

If SpaceX was in fact hoping to refit MARMAC 400 as ASoG, that suggests that they're planning to continue with the barge-refit scheme for ASoG, and that they probably just went to a different barge leasing company to find something similar to MARMAC 400.

The pros of this approach are: proven operations model, relatively low up-front cost, minimal lead time (vs new construction or refit of a self-propelled ship a la Blue Origin), ease of reconfiguration, ease of permitting now that Coast Guard is familiar with how they operate, etc.

So I'm going to predict ASoG will be a barge like JRtI and OCISLY, but on steroids.

Marmac 400 looks about 30 metres longer and maybe?? a little thinner. Interested if that was intentional when asking for it or if they just wanted to get any barge they could.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/05/2021 09:15 pm


I still say ASoG's name should be changed to Zeno's Paradox, because it's always coming, but never actually arriving.

I think it's because it must be a custom built vessel.  Self propelled with a crane on one end of the deck, station keeping abilities for rougher seas.

It must be!

Edit: Maybe it will just show up on the West Coast before July for the Starlink launches coming up.  2nd half of 2021 is going to have one heck of a launch cadence.

Reliable source says SpaceX asked McDonough Marine about leasing MARMAC 400, their largest barge, maybe as recently as a few months ago. But the 400 was already leased to another customer.

If SpaceX was in fact hoping to refit MARMAC 400 as ASoG, that suggests that they're planning to continue with the barge-refit scheme for ASoG, and that they probably just went to a different barge leasing company to find something similar to MARMAC 400.

The pros of this approach are: proven operations model, relatively low up-front cost, minimal lead time (vs new construction or refit of a self-propelled ship a la Blue Origin), ease of reconfiguration, ease of permitting now that Coast Guard is familiar with how they operate, etc.

So I'm going to predict ASoG will be a barge like JRtI and OCISLY, but on steroids.

Marmac 400 looks about 30 metres longer and maybe?? a little thinner. Interested if that was intentional when asking for it or if they just wanted to get any barge they could.

Source said SpaceX asked for the biggest barge McDonough has, which is the 400, at (surprise) 400 feet long.

Probably they'd rather not have to stack equipment like on the 300 series barges due to deck space limitations.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 05/05/2021 09:30 pm


I still say ASoG's name should be changed to Zeno's Paradox, because it's always coming, but never actually arriving.

I think it's because it must be a custom built vessel.  Self propelled with a crane on one end of the deck, station keeping abilities for rougher seas.

It must be!

Edit: Maybe it will just show up on the West Coast before July for the Starlink launches coming up.  2nd half of 2021 is going to have one heck of a launch cadence.

Reliable source says SpaceX asked McDonough Marine about leasing MARMAC 400, their largest barge, maybe as recently as a few months ago. But the 400 was already leased to another customer.

If SpaceX was in fact hoping to refit MARMAC 400 as ASoG, that suggests that they're planning to continue with the barge-refit scheme for ASoG, and that they probably just went to a different barge leasing company to find something similar to MARMAC 400.

The pros of this approach are: proven operations model, relatively low up-front cost, minimal lead time (vs new construction or refit of a self-propelled ship a la Blue Origin), ease of reconfiguration, ease of permitting now that Coast Guard is familiar with how they operate, etc.

So I'm going to predict ASoG will be a barge like JRtI and OCISLY, but on steroids.

Marmac 400 looks about 30 metres longer and maybe?? a little thinner. Interested if that was intentional when asking for it or if they just wanted to get any barge they could.

With their landing accuracy they could land 2 boosters on a ASDS that long.  Double up!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/06/2021 12:05 am
A longer barge might get the starlink dish further from the landing plume as well and help with video stability.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 05/06/2021 02:49 pm
A longer barge might get the starlink dish further from the landing plume as well and help with video stability.

I've thought that some kind of gyro stabilized mount would take care of that.

I'm sure they will never do it, but they are getting so accurate with the F9 landings that 2 F9's (FH side boosters) on 1 deck is possible. 

Cost per booster to recover would be lower too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/06/2021 03:18 pm
The interesting thing is that we're getting clear video from the top of the rocket at the same time the barge mounted video is cut out.  This suggests to me that it's not (just) vibration (after all, the rocket shakes too!), but some property of the plume that a bit of extra elevation helps clear.  I'm pretty sure if it was "just" a matter of stabilizing the antenna pointing it would have been solved by now.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 05/09/2021 10:14 pm
https://spacexfleet.com/where-is-a-shortfall-of-gravitas-droneship

Quote
What we can tell you is that the barge that is expected to be converted into ASOG – Marmac 302 – is indeed at Port Fourchon, Louisiana, where we have been quietly tracking it.

ASOG has been spotted
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 05/09/2021 10:54 pm
From the link above these should be postable:


https://twitter.com/SausseImages/status/1391487119936397321

Is this @SpaceX’s newest droneship “A Shortfall of Gravitas?”
I went and checked on it and it looks like it might be. Read more at the article below.
📸 by me for
@Space_Explored
 
Thread 1/2

https://twitter.com/SausseImages/status/1391487135140749326


https://twitter.com/Space_Explored/status/1391486254630506500




https://spaceexplored.com/2021/05/09/first-looks-at-what-could-be-spacexs-newest-droneship-a-shortfall-of-gravitas/
First looks at what could be SpaceX’s newest droneship ‘A Shortfall of Gravitas’
Seth Kurkowski

- May. 9th 2021 1:12 pm PT
@SethKurk

Quote
Earlier today it was confirmed that the barge designated Marmac 302 was being worked on in Port Fourchon, Louisiana. The barge looks to be getting modifications for Falcon 9 landings.

....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 05/09/2021 11:00 pm
The interesting thing is that we're getting clear video from the top of the rocket at the same time the barge mounted video is cut out.  This suggests to me that it's not (just) vibration (after all, the rocket shakes too!), but some property of the plume that a bit of extra elevation helps clear.  I'm pretty sure if it was "just" a matter of stabilizing the antenna pointing it would have been solved by now.

That should be two completely separate and different com link. I think barge cam go through a sat uplink, directly from the drone ship. While booster cam should be a data radio link (embedded in the telemetry) to the control ship GO ....) and uplinked to sat from there.

Also: booster vid quality and coverage seems improved lately. I dont know if Starlink involved or not.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 05/09/2021 11:23 pm
https://spacexfleet.com/where-is-a-shortfall-of-gravitas-droneship

Quote
What we can tell you is that the barge that is expected to be converted into ASOG – Marmac 302 – is indeed at Port Fourchon, Louisiana, where we have been quietly tracking it.

ASOG has been spotted

So ASOG is in Louisiana, while speculation was that they need the third ship at the west coast.
Modifications seems like to involve tge new thruster design.
And drone ships with the wings and thruster houses are oversized for the older Panama locks.

IMHO there is another twist in this story. Probably they intend to do the final outfitting at a new location at the west coast. If thats the case, that barge can move quite soon.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 05/09/2021 11:59 pm
https://spacexfleet.com/where-is-a-shortfall-of-gravitas-droneship

Quote
What we can tell you is that the barge that is expected to be converted into ASOG – Marmac 302 – is indeed at Port Fourchon, Louisiana, where we have been quietly tracking it.

ASOG has been spotted

So ASOG is in Louisiana, while speculation was that they need the third ship at the west coast.
Modifications seems like to involve the new thruster design.
And drone ships with the wings and thruster houses are oversized for the older Panama locks.

IMHO there is another twist in this story. Probably they intend to do the final outfitting at a new location at the west coast. If that's the case, that barge can move quite soon.

Gavin was saying on his blog post about this that ASoG will go to the east coast and either JRTI or OCISLY will be the one to move. I'm guessing OCISLY because it needs the thruster upgrades so taking it offline to reattach wings on the west coast and get good thrusters would make sense, but I imagine it would stay online till ASoG begins work,
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 05/10/2021 12:12 am
.....
So ASOG is in Louisiana, while speculation was that they need the third ship at the west coast.
Modifications seems like to involve the new thruster design.
And drone ships with the wings and thruster houses are oversized for the older Panama locks.

IMHO there is another twist in this story. Probably they intend to do the final outfitting at a new location at the west coast. If that's the case, that barge can move quite soon.

Gavin was saying on his blog post about this that ASoG will go to the east coast and either JRTI or OCISLY will be the one to move. I'm guessing OCISLY because it needs the thruster upgrades so taking it offline to reattach wings on the west coast and get good thrusters would make sense, but I imagine it would stay online till ASoG begins work,

Sounds a bit long for the west coast operations. Several weeks to finish ASOG, than move OCISILY,  and 2 months for upgrades at the west coast (was something like that for JRTI).

Thats September at the earliest to have an operational drone ship at LA.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 05/10/2021 01:21 am
https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1391490242239246336
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 05/10/2021 01:32 am
Fingers crossed we are actually seeing ASOG.

I can't wait to see dual coast operations.

Edit: I'm nothing close to a navy engineer or sea going guy.  But maybe the west coast waters where they would be landing aren't as turbulent or volatile as the east coast.  Maybe the older less capable design is fine for the West Coast for the length of time they need it out there.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/10/2021 03:58 pm
Reliable source confirms MARMAC 302 is being refit as A Shortfall of Gravitas, and that it will be the "flagship" of the SpaceX ASDS fleet. 

Kudos to the people who figured that out first.

Apparently SpaceX originally wanted MARMAC 400, but since it was already leased, they settled for the shorter 302.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 05/10/2021 04:36 pm
ASOG will be great, but there really needs to be a third ASDS on the Eastern Range for redundancy and triple recovery of Falcon Heavy launches.

ASDS availability is already a limiting factor in the current launch cadence.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 05/10/2021 04:49 pm
Do we know for sure that ASOG is going west coast?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/10/2021 04:53 pm
Do we know for sure that ASOG is going west coast?

I don't think any outsiders know for sure. My money would be on East Coast operations, especially now that SpaceX can  go polar from there with Starlink.

It also makes more sense logistically. They have all the tugs, crews, shore support equipment, etc, at the Cape now.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 05/10/2021 05:05 pm
MARMAC 302 is pretty young, built in 2012. It’s definitely the quickest and easiest option for a third ASDS.
https://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/mcd-spec-sheets_v8-marmac_302.pdf

There isn’t really any option for a quick and easy fourth ASDS except for MARMAC 400. MARMAC 301 is very similar to MARMAC 300, which was found to be unsuitable.
https://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/pdfs/McDonough_Marine_Service_Catalog.pdf
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RDMM2081 on 05/10/2021 05:26 pm
I'm sorry to ask such a basic question but I figure this is the best place.  Is "Marmac 302" (Or Marmac 303, 300, 400 etc) a "class of barges" or is it a "specific hull"? I hope that makes sense, thanks!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 05/10/2021 05:42 pm
I'm sorry to ask such a basic question but I figure this is the best place.  Is "Marmac 302" (Or Marmac 303, 300, 400 etc) a "class of barges" or is it a "specific hull"? I hope that makes sense, thanks!

I’m pretty sure the 3 refers to the series/class, and then the numbers after, in this case 02, refers to the SN of that series.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cpushack on 05/10/2021 05:47 pm
I'm sorry to ask such a basic question but I figure this is the best place.  Is "Marmac 302" (Or Marmac 303, 300, 400 etc) a "class of barges" or is it a "specific hull"? I hope that makes sense, thanks!

I’m pretty sure the 3 refers to the series/class, and then the numbers after, in this case 02, refers to the SN of that series.

Correct, 302 is a specific vessel, similar bit not identical to others of its series, but a specific hull
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RDMM2081 on 05/10/2021 06:00 pm
OK thanks, I think that clears up my question perfectly!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 05/10/2021 06:30 pm
Some recap here for those new to the MARMACs.

MARMAC 300 was the original JRtI.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1546371#msg1546371
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/10/2021 08:03 pm
I'm sorry to ask such a basic question but I figure this is the best place.  Is "Marmac 302" (Or Marmac 303, 300, 400 etc) a "class of barges" or is it a "specific hull"? I hope that makes sense, thanks!

From the wayback machine, here's a little history on the Marmac 300, 303 and 304.

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/06/spacex-augments-upgrades-drone-ship-armada/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 05/10/2021 10:15 pm
Do we know for sure that ASOG is going west coast?

I don't think any outsiders know for sure. My money would be on East Coast operations, especially now that SpaceX can  go polar from there with Starlink.

It also makes more sense logistically. They have all the tugs, crews, shore support equipment, etc, at the Cape now.

Except we know SpaceX intends to launch polar Starlink from the west coast and have moved their west coast fleet to a new port readying for start of missions once a droneship arrives.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/10/2021 10:34 pm
Do we know for sure that ASOG is going west coast?

I don't think any outsiders know for sure. My money would be on East Coast operations, especially now that SpaceX can  go polar from there with Starlink.

It also makes more sense logistically. They have all the tugs, crews, shore support equipment, etc, at the Cape now.

Except we know SpaceX intends to launch polar Starlink from the west coast and have moved their west coast fleet to a new port readying for start of missions once a droneship arrives.

Thanks, I had not heard that. But to support your point, here's a recent article from Eric Ralph on SpaceX leasing a large amount of port space in Long Beach:

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-west-coast-starlink-launches-new-port-lease/

Edit: Also, here's a job listing for drone ship recovery ops at Hawthorne, with specific mention of Vandenberg:

https://boards.greenhouse.io/spacex/jobs/5119839002?gh_jid=5119839002
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: danneely on 05/10/2021 10:49 pm
MARMAC 302 is pretty young, built in 2012. It’s definitely the quickest and easiest option for a third ASDS.
https://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/mcd-spec-sheets_v8-marmac_302.pdf

There isn’t really any option for a quick and easy fourth ASDS except for MARMAC 400. MARMAC 301 is very similar to MARMAC 300, which was found to be unsuitable.
https://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/pdfs/McDonough_Marine_Service_Catalog.pdf

Do we know why 300 was found to be unsuitable?  From the specsheet in their catalog it appears identical to 302, 303, and 304.  (In contrast 301 has a significantly lower maximum deck load compared to the rest of the 30x family.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 05/10/2021 11:02 pm
MARMAC 302 is pretty young, built in 2012. It’s definitely the quickest and easiest option for a third ASDS.
https://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/mcd-spec-sheets_v8-marmac_302.pdf

There isn’t really any option for a quick and easy fourth ASDS except for MARMAC 400. MARMAC 301 is very similar to MARMAC 300, which was found to be unsuitable.
https://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/pdfs/McDonough_Marine_Service_Catalog.pdf

Do we know why 300 was found to be unsuitable?  From the specsheet in their catalog it appears identical to 302, 303, and 304.  (In contrast 301 has a significantly lower maximum deck load compared to the rest of the 30x family.)

The 300 was an old beater barge near the end of its service life, which may be why McDonough Marine agreed to let SpaceX turn it into a target for a giant falling rocket with unproven landing skills.

Once the concept was proven and several F9 crashes failed to sink the 300, SpaceX apparently wanted newer barges with longer service lives ahead of them, and McDonough was willing to lease them the much newer 303 and 304.

We had that discussion way back in 2016.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1546479#msg1546479
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 05/14/2021 07:14 pm
https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1393187862133284870
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Tomness on 05/15/2021 03:20 am
https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1393187862133284870

Question becomes do they still need wing extensions?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: matthewkantar on 05/15/2021 05:26 am
I think they may still need the wings so that octograbber has room to maneuver.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 05/19/2021 06:39 pm
I think they may still need the wings so that octograbber has room to maneuver.

The wings also provide additional operational flexibility for minimal cost.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 05/22/2021 03:33 am
Hi guys... I took a quick helicopter tour of Port Canaveral today and got these photos of the two ships. B1058 was just getting laid down on the transport, so that establishes the time :)

Sorry for the poor quality, but a) it was a moving helicopter, b) it was a phone not a real camera and c) I was actually shooting through a window! I figured I'd upload anyway in case there's something of value here.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/23/2021 02:33 pm
https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1396473649696215044

Quote
The best photo yet of A Shortfall of Gravitas droneship construction!

Two thrusters have been installed on the starboard side. Lots of metal housing with watertight doors on the stern (left of pic) and possibly counting 5 generator units.

twitter.com/ed_guidry/status/1396101422211534853

Quote
SpaceX barge at Bollinger shipyard in Port Fourchon.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisC on 05/23/2021 03:11 pm
Quote
The best photo yet of A Shortfall of Gravitas droneship construction!

Higher resolution image downloaded and attached.

Different design than the first two .... All the support equipment is at the stern, and the bow is completely open.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 05/24/2021 02:19 am
Quote
The best photo yet of A Shortfall of Gravitas droneship construction!
Different design than the first two .... All the support equipment is at the stern, and the bow is completely open.

Seems like that would throw the CoG way off…
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 05/24/2021 02:32 am
Quote
The best photo yet of A Shortfall of Gravitas droneship construction!
Different design than the first two .... All the support equipment is at the stern, and the bow is completely open.

Seems like that would throw the CoG way off…

Yes - it's perhaps a little early in the build process to make definitive statements about the design.  Let's just wait and see what happens.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/24/2021 02:42 am
Should be pretty feasible to compensate for the different loading. Putting everything on one side should make it slightly more survivable than the other two. It might also allow larger landing surfaces. In principle, they can expand not only the width but also the length by adding an extension (like the wings).

Might make it worth using for Superheavy (and/or Starship) until Phobos/Deimos are ready.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 05/24/2021 04:22 am
Quote
The best photo yet of A Shortfall of Gravitas droneship construction!
Different design than the first two .... All the support equipment is at the stern, and the bow is completely open.

Seems like that would throw the CoG way off…
Yeah but it's a barge, not an airplane or rocket.

I don't think it's that sensitive to some equipment on the back end of the deck.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 05/24/2021 04:48 am
Quote
The best photo yet of A Shortfall of Gravitas droneship construction!
Different design than the first two .... All the support equipment is at the stern, and the bow is completely open.

Seems like that would throw the CoG way off…
Yeah but it's a barge, not an airplane or rocket.

I don't think it's that sensitive to some equipment on the back end of the deck.

Considering how launches have been postponed due to wave conditions, it’s certainly an important consideration. Having unbalanced loads on any oceangoing craft is dangerous.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 05/24/2021 11:48 am
Quote
The best photo yet of A Shortfall of Gravitas droneship construction!
Different design than the first two .... All the support equipment is at the stern, and the bow is completely open.

Seems like that would throw the CoG way off…
Yeah but it's a barge, not an airplane or rocket.

I don't think it's that sensitive to some equipment on the back end of the deck.

Considering how launches have been postponed due to wave conditions, it’s certainly an important consideration. Having unbalanced loads on any oceangoing craft is dangerous.

They do have tanks that they can flood for balance and stability. Is it one tank or multiples?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: eriblo on 05/24/2021 11:49 am
Quote
The best photo yet of A Shortfall of Gravitas droneship construction!
Different design than the first two .... All the support equipment is at the stern, and the bow is completely open.

Seems like that would throw the CoG way off…
Yeah but it's a barge, not an airplane or rocket.

I don't think it's that sensitive to some equipment on the back end of the deck.

Considering how launches have been postponed due to wave conditions, it’s certainly an important consideration. Having unbalanced loads on any oceangoing craft is dangerous.
They are deck barges, they are literally designed to carry large non standard loads in varying configurations. They are ballasted with plenty of water for stability so it is trivial to balance out an uneven distribution of deck equipment and the weight of a landed booster is negligible in comparison.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 05/24/2021 09:25 pm

They do have tanks that they can flood for balance and stability. Is it one tank or multiples?

These are the ballast tanks with capacities for MARMAC 302.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: darkenfast on 05/25/2021 06:27 am
These barges are designed for this sort of thing. Because they are basically big boxes, they have a huge amount of initial stability. Marmac 302 is rated for over 10,000 tonnes capacity (obviously, the wings will eat up some of this). Moving the auxiliary equipment to one end (if that is what they want to do), will not have  big effect. The full load draft of a Marmac 302 is just under 5 meters (a bit over 15 feet). Pardon my mixing systems, but a quick look showed me that each inch increase in draft amounted to 58 tonnes of added displacement. Since the barges are towed at a minor fraction of their hull speed, there might be a slight increase in fuel consumption, but I doubt it will have much of an effect on speed.

SpaceX's ASDS's are operating very light for what these barges routinely do in their normal work. They are ballasted down most of the time anyway, for handling. Where the booster lands is almost immaterial to stability of the barge, otherwise they probably would not have included the wings, which are out of the water and double the beam of the vessel.

The recently departed Shelia Bordelon is a great example of this sort of thing. The superstructure and engines are located far forward (where there is less buoyancy from the hull, no less), yet she manages to operate just fine when not carrying a load on her working deck. She has far less hull in the water than a Marmac 300-series.

Something like a racing sailboat is a whole 'nother kettle-o-fish!   
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 05/28/2021 03:39 am
https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1398029707535437834
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 05/29/2021 02:53 am
https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1398432094699896841
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 06/06/2021 05:55 pm
https://twitter.com/SpaceXFleet/status/1401592220571082760
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 06/06/2021 06:27 pm
https://twitter.com/space_explored/status/1401356825128226817

Quote
Exclusive: New photos of A Shortfall Of Gravitas show SpaceX’s new droneship is getting close to done https://spaceexplored.com/2021/06/05/exclusive-new-photos-of-a-shortfall-of-gravitas-show-spacexs-new-droneship-is-getting-close-to-done/ by @sausseimages
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 06/08/2021 01:22 am
https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1401576701067513858
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 06/21/2021 05:04 pm
https://spaceexplored.com/2021/06/20/exclusive-spacexs-new-droneship-has-finally-earned-its-wing-with-the-install-of-deck-extensions/

Wings are being installed on ASOG
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 06/23/2021 11:58 am
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1407668849911242752

Quote
Fair winds and following seas Finn Falgout! They have departed Port Canaveral with a destination of Forchoun. It appears A Shortfall of Gravitas now has a tug assigned as construction nears completion.
Captured via @NASASpaceflight #Fleetcam
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 06/23/2021 07:13 pm
https://twitter.com/jansenspace/status/1407778057033859076

Quote
New ETA for Finn Falgout shows arrival at Port Fourchon on June 27
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 06/27/2021 01:29 pm
https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1409136600991293444

Quote
Tug Finn Falgout has arrived at Port Fourchon to collect A Shortfall of Gravitas droneship.

Expect some offshore sea trials in the Gulf before they tow the new droneship all the way to Florida.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/27/2021 11:10 pm
I didn't realise OCISLY still had the old thrusters.

IIRC, didn't they buy enough to fit out both ASDSs?  Maybe the new thrusters didn't work as well as expected??
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cwr on 06/27/2021 11:59 pm
I didn't realise OCISLY still had the old thrusters.

IIRC, didn't they buy enough to fit out both ASDSs?  Maybe the new thrusters didn't work as well as expected??

My recollection is that they had enough new thrusters for JRTI and OCISLY
when JRTI was being outfitted with its new engines.
However the launch cadence never allowed OCISLY enough time to replace the engines.

Remember ASOG has the new thrusters, which does not suggest a problem with the new thrusters.

Carl
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/28/2021 12:48 am
I didn't realise OCISLY still had the old thrusters.

IIRC, didn't they buy enough to fit out both ASDSs?  Maybe the new thrusters didn't work as well as expected??

My recollection is that they had enough new thrusters for JRTI and OCISLY
when JRTI was being outfitted with its new engines.
However the launch cadence never allowed OCISLY enough time to replace the engines.

So, doesn't that mean the new thrusters for OCISLY are now on the wrong side of the country?  If there wasn't time to fit them before, why not ship them back east as deck cargo (as we saw them do first time around)?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hamish.Student on 06/28/2021 01:04 am
I didn't realise OCISLY still had the old thrusters.

IIRC, didn't they buy enough to fit out both ASDSs?  Maybe the new thrusters didn't work as well as expected??

My recollection is that they had enough new thrusters for JRTI and OCISLY
when JRTI was being outfitted with its new engines.
However the launch cadence never allowed OCISLY enough time to replace the engines.

So, doesn't that mean the new thrusters for OCISLY are now on the wrong side of the country?  If there wasn't time to fit them before, why not ship them back east as deck cargo (as we saw them do first time around)?
 
 
Could just be off the critical path for OCISLY. If the current thrusters work well enough, then it can wait for the refit.   
Is there any possibility that OCISLY could be retired after its current season on the east cost? 
I only consider this because ASOG obviously has an improved design, I could see them replacing OCISLY/JRTI with the new improved models.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cwr on 06/28/2021 02:36 am
I didn't realise OCISLY still had the old thrusters.

IIRC, didn't they buy enough to fit out both ASDSs?  Maybe the new thrusters didn't work as well as expected??

My recollection is that they had enough new thrusters for JRTI and OCISLY
when JRTI was being outfitted with its new engines.
However the launch cadence never allowed OCISLY enough time to replace the engines.

So, doesn't that mean the new thrusters for OCISLY are now on the wrong side of the country?  If there wasn't time to fit them before, why not ship them back east as deck cargo (as we saw them do first time around)?

My further recollections are that when ASOG was discovered, its engines were beside it on the dock
and they were the same as the ones currently fitted to JRTI.
At the same time, OCISLY's new engines were sitting on the dock at Port Canaveral
and JRTI had already been fitted with the new engines.

I'm not certain but I've assumed that the new engines for OCISLY were shipped with OCISLY.
I've not seen them on the dock at Port Canaveral and I assume going into storage there makes no sense.

Carl
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/28/2021 02:50 am
I'm not certain but I've assumed that the new engines for OCISLY were shipped with OCISLY.
I've not seen them on the dock at Port Canaveral and I assume going into storage there makes no sense.

Agreed, but they're nowhere to be seen in that aerial shot posted by gsa above.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: alugobi on 06/28/2021 02:58 am
They put the new thrusters on the new ship, ASOG.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: darkenfast on 06/28/2021 03:24 am
I believe the larger thrusters were necessary for operations in the Gulf Stream. West Coast ASDSs may not need them.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cwr on 06/28/2021 03:30 am
They put the new thrusters on the new ship, ASOG.

Are you saying that you know definitively that SpaceX only purchased 2 sets of the new
thrusters, originally intended for JRTI and OCSILY but those 2 sets are currently installed
on JRTI and ASOG.
Further more you imply that OCSILY is no longer destined for a new set of thrusters.

Can you supply a reference for these data points?

Carl
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kuldan on 06/28/2021 10:13 am
Could just be off the critical path for OCISLY. If the current thrusters work well enough, then it can wait for the refit.   
Is there any possibility that OCISLY could be retired after its current season on the east cost? 
I only consider this because ASOG obviously has an improved design, I could see them replacing OCISLY/JRTI with the new improved models.

That wouldn't work because they cannot replace OCISLY/JRTI but would need to refit them to the new standard instead, which takes quite a bit of time - there are no other MARMAC 300 Barges they could use to build replacements rather than refitting the existing ones..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Captain Crutch on 06/28/2021 01:34 pm
That wouldn't work because they cannot replace OCISLY/JRTI but would need to refit them to the new standard instead, which takes quite a bit of time - there are no other MARMAC 300 Barges they could use to build replacements rather than refitting the existing ones..

Could always commission a new barge to be built. But I think they would hold off on that until they absolutely need to. I could see OCISLY getting through the upcoming launch season out of Vandenberg and then going for refit to be ready for the next season.
Or maybe they just don’t see a point in upgrading a barge for a launch system they intend on making obsolete before too long. The only reason ASOG was built was due to a need for 3 droneships. One for the West Coast to support Starlink missions and 2 for the East to support Falcon Heavy.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: enbandi on 06/28/2021 06:18 pm
They put the new thrusters on the new ship, ASOG.

Are you saying that you know definitively that SpaceX only purchased 2 sets of the new
thrusters, originally intended for JRTI and OCSILY but those 2 sets are currently installed
on JRTI and ASOG.
Further more you imply that OCSILY is no longer destined for a new set of thrusters.

Can you supply a reference for these data points?

Carl

I think the visuals contradict this version. The new thrusters for OCISILY and JRTI has green screw blades, while the ASOG ones are yellow-brass(ish).

All of this based on public pictures.

EDIT: Nope, I am wrong, the oroginals have brass blades too.
https://twitter.com/Kyle_M_Photo/status/1241327293580152835?s=19
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: danneely on 06/28/2021 09:56 pm
That wouldn't work because they cannot replace OCISLY/JRTI but would need to refit them to the new standard instead, which takes quite a bit of time - there are no other MARMAC 300 Barges they could use to build replacements rather than refitting the existing ones..

Could always commission a new barge to be built. But I think they would hold off on that until they absolutely need to. I could see OCISLY getting through the upcoming launch season out of Vandenberg and then going for refit to be ready for the next season.
Or maybe they just don’t see a point in upgrading a barge for a launch system they intend on making obsolete before too long. The only reason ASOG was built was due to a need for 3 droneships. One for the West Coast to support Starlink missions and 2 for the East to support Falcon Heavy.

It'd almost certainly be easier to find another barge operating company with similar sized platforms and enter into a long term lease to modify one or more of their barges into an ASDS configuration.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/29/2021 01:56 am
That wouldn't work because they cannot replace OCISLY/JRTI but would need to refit them to the new standard instead, which takes quite a bit of time - there are no other MARMAC 300 Barges they could use to build replacements rather than refitting the existing ones..

Could always commission a new barge to be built. But I think they would hold off on that until they absolutely need to. I could see OCISLY getting through the upcoming launch season out of Vandenberg and then going for refit to be ready for the next season.
Or maybe they just don’t see a point in upgrading a barge for a launch system they intend on making obsolete before too long. The only reason ASOG was built was due to a need for 3 droneships. One for the West Coast to support Starlink missions and 2 for the East to support Falcon Heavy.

It'd almost certainly be easier to find another barge operating company with similar sized platforms and enter into a long term lease to modify one or more of their barges into an ASDS configuration.

Gotta love this photo (posted by gwr above).. and it clearly shows why I've previously suggested that MS1 would make a great landing platform - with or without the ASDS for impact protection.  No modification required.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 06/29/2021 02:05 am
it clearly shows why I've previously suggested that MS1 would make a great landing platform - with or without the ASDS for impact protection.  No modification required.  :)

The lease cost would be at least 10x higher.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 06/29/2021 02:09 am
Or maybe they just don’t see a point in upgrading a barge for a launch system they intend on making obsolete before too long. The only reason ASOG was built was due to a need for 3 droneships. One for the West Coast to support Starlink missions and 2 for the East to support Falcon Heavy.

There are contractual commitments for Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy through 2027.

Another ASDS might be added for FH triple recovery.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 06/29/2021 02:15 am
it clearly shows why I've previously suggested that MS1 would make a great landing platform - with or without the ASDS for impact protection.  No modification required.  :)

The lease cost would be at least 10x higher.

Meh, it's still peanuts compared to the cost of a recovered F9 first stage... besides I'm not suggesting for a second that they might use it, just that it would be really impressive if they did.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: alugobi on 06/29/2021 03:09 am
Is that vessel capable of station keeping like the barges with thrusters?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: darkenfast on 06/29/2021 09:13 am
From what I can discover
Is that vessel capable of station keeping like the barges with thrusters?

Mighty Servant 1 has two Controllable Pitch Propellers aft and two bow thrusters forward. A good handler could probably hold it pretty close, but I don't think it could be held steady enough to meet rocket landing positioning as practiced by SpaceX.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: EL_DIABLO on 06/29/2021 12:06 pm
it clearly shows why I've previously suggested that MS1 would make a great landing platform - with or without the ASDS for impact protection.  No modification required.  :)

The lease cost would be at least 10x higher.

Meh, it's still peanuts compared to the cost of a recovered F9 first stage... besides I'm not suggesting for a second that they might use it, just that it would be really impressive if they did.

SpaceX runs a lean operation, they can't exactly afford to throw away money willy nilly.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: VaBlue on 06/29/2021 12:47 pm
From what I can discover
Is that vessel capable of station keeping like the barges with thrusters?

Mighty Servant 1 has two Controllable Pitch Propellers aft and two bow thrusters forward. A good handler could probably hold it pretty close, but I don't think it could be held steady enough to meet rocket landing positioning as practiced by SpaceX.

I'll bet it could station keep well enough to land a rocket, easily.  That thing holds its position well enough to load/unload ships at sea, including on the open ocean.  And I can tell you from experience (years aboard a submarine) that neutral buoyancy is by far the most dangerous part of any loading/unloading exercise.  If MS1 can hold position well enough to raise/lower itself through neutral buoyancy with a ship on its back, it can handle a rocket landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 06/29/2021 01:27 pm
it clearly shows why I've previously suggested that MS1 would make a great landing platform - with or without the ASDS for impact protection.  No modification required.  :)

The lease cost would be at least 10x higher.
I'd put at least an extra zero on that multiplier, and possibly two. Long-term hire of a fairly generic unfitted moderately sized barge is barely comparable to long-term hire of a heavy-lift semi-submersible, one of two of her class and one of maybe 20 ships worldwide of comparable capability.

Hiring out MS1 (or MS3) to use as an ASDS would be like renting a Cat 797 to move returned boosters back from the port: extremely expensive, a massive inconvenience due to size and operating costs, and using none of its capabilities other than "well, its big, and has a flat bit on top".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 06/29/2021 02:08 pm
From what I can discover
Is that vessel capable of station keeping like the barges with thrusters?

Mighty Servant 1 has two Controllable Pitch Propellers aft and two bow thrusters forward. A good handler could probably hold it pretty close, but I don't think it could be held steady enough to meet rocket landing positioning as practiced by SpaceX.

I'll bet it could station keep well enough to land a rocket, easily.  That thing holds its position well enough to load/unload ships at sea, including on the open ocean.  And I can tell you from experience (years aboard a submarine) that neutral buoyancy is by far the most dangerous part of any loading/unloading exercise.  If MS1 can hold position well enough to raise/lower itself through neutral buoyancy with a ship on its back, it can handle a rocket landing.

I'm not sure whether "could" is:
1) Could "as-is"
2) Could with Automated Control Upgrades or
3) Could with ACUs and Additional Thrusters

Except for #3, I'd be surprised if this is the case.  I think we're talking entirely different kinds of stations keeping.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: darkenfast on 06/29/2021 07:39 pm
From what I can discover
Is that vessel capable of station keeping like the barges with thrusters?

Mighty Servant 1 has two Controllable Pitch Propellers aft and two bow thrusters forward. A good handler could probably hold it pretty close, but I don't think it could be held steady enough to meet rocket landing positioning as practiced by SpaceX.

I'll bet it could station keep well enough to land a rocket, easily.  That thing holds its position well enough to load/unload ships at sea, including on the open ocean.  And I can tell you from experience (years aboard a submarine) that neutral buoyancy is by far the most dangerous part of any loading/unloading exercise.  If MS1 can hold position well enough to raise/lower itself through neutral buoyancy with a ship on its back, it can handle a rocket landing.

Two things here: First, the MS1 is anchored while loading and unloading are done, at least in the videos I've seen. The tugs attached to the load are doing the positioning. Obviously, the loading/unloading must take place in conditions that don't cause the ship to swing wildly at anchor!

Second, the lift-ship is never in the kind of neutral buoyancy that a submarine has to deal with, because it is never totally submerged. It IS at an much deeper draft than normal, but there are still thousands of tons of ship above the new waterline. It is stable at that draft during the time when the cargo is being positioned over the deck (but not touching it). Then, when the ballast tanks are pumped out, the MS1 gradually takes the weight and lifts the cargo up.

Submarines have a harder problem, because once an object is fully submerged, any weight added or subtracted (torpedoes, missiles, sanitary tanks, etc.) requires either trimming (tanks) or use of hydrodynamic means (planes, speed), to maintain depth (not to mention the changing environment of the water in which the sub is operating). Failure to stay on top of that can cause serious problems.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with the kind of positioning that the ASDSs do. They aren't rapidly adjusting their draft. They can do so for ballast reasons, and on one occasion, a MARMAC barge was used as a lift vessel by sinking it to the bottom of a harbor.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: VaBlue on 07/01/2021 01:20 pm
Two things here: First, the MS1 is anchored while loading and unloading are done, at least in the videos I've seen. The tugs attached to the load are doing the positioning. Obviously, the loading/unloading must take place in conditions that don't cause the ship to swing wildly at anchor!

Second, the lift-ship is never in the kind of neutral buoyancy that a submarine has to deal with, because it is never totally submerged.

Yes, it is.  Every time it changes from positive buoyancy to negative buoyancy, and vice versa.

Quote
Then, when the ballast tanks are pumped out, the MS1 gradually takes the weight and lifts the cargo up.

This is where neutral buoyancy lives - some small amount of time where MS1's slight positive balances out with the weight of the load she's taking.  This is where positioning and ballast control become really important.  If a wave, wind, or current move something out of position (somehow) the balance of the load will tip over to one side.  At neutral buoyancy, that is an ugly thing.  And remember that the load is sitting on blocks rather than on the breadth of a hull.  Pump out a dry dock and site a ship off center on the blocks, and it'll tip over.  Same thing here, and anchors don't keep a ship from riding waves.

Quote
Submarines have a harder problem, because once an object is fully submerged, any weight added or subtracted (torpedoes, missiles, sanitary tanks, etc.) requires either trimming (tanks) or use of hydrodynamic means (planes, speed), to maintain depth (not to mention the changing environment of the water in which the sub is operating). Failure to stay on top of that can cause serious problems.

While this statement is true, submarines operate at a slightly negative buoyancy and use the lift from speed and planes to maintain depth.  Unless, of course, there's a reason to hover like a helicopter.  Once the buoyancy is set after diving, they avoid the use of pumps as much as possible.

Quote
Anyway, none of this has anything to do with the kind of positioning that the ASDSs do.

Legit question - what kind of positioning does an ASDS do?  I just assumed it held to one spot, without drifting around, until something landed on it.  Which is pretty much what MS1 does.  Is there something special about it that I'm not thinking of?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: darkenfast on 07/01/2021 05:47 pm
Two things here: First, the MS1 is anchored while loading and unloading are done, at least in the videos I've seen. The tugs attached to the load are doing the positioning. Obviously, the loading/unloading must take place in conditions that don't cause the ship to swing wildly at anchor!

Second, the lift-ship is never in the kind of neutral buoyancy that a submarine has to deal with, because it is never totally submerged.

Yes, it is.  Every time it changes from positive buoyancy to negative buoyancy, and vice versa.

Quote
Then, when the ballast tanks are pumped out, the MS1 gradually takes the weight and lifts the cargo up.

This is where neutral buoyancy lives - some small amount of time where MS1's slight positive balances out with the weight of the load she's taking.  This is where positioning and ballast control become really important.  If a wave, wind, or current move something out of position (somehow) the balance of the load will tip over to one side.  At neutral buoyancy, that is an ugly thing.  And remember that the load is sitting on blocks rather than on the breadth of a hull.  Pump out a dry dock and site a ship off center on the blocks, and it'll tip over.  Same thing here, and anchors don't keep a ship from riding waves.

Quote
Submarines have a harder problem, because once an object is fully submerged, any weight added or subtracted (torpedoes, missiles, sanitary tanks, etc.) requires either trimming (tanks) or use of hydrodynamic means (planes, speed), to maintain depth (not to mention the changing environment of the water in which the sub is operating). Failure to stay on top of that can cause serious problems.

While this statement is true, submarines operate at a slightly negative buoyancy and use the lift from speed and planes to maintain depth.  Unless, of course, there's a reason to hover like a helicopter.  Once the buoyancy is set after diving, they avoid the use of pumps as much as possible.

Quote
Anyway, none of this has anything to do with the kind of positioning that the ASDSs do.

Legit question - what kind of positioning does an ASDS do?  I just assumed it held to one spot, without drifting around, until something landed on it.  Which is pretty much what MS1 does.  Is there something special about it that I'm not thinking of?

I think the problem here is the definition of neutral buoyancy that you are using. Here's a couple I just pulled.

From the Wikipedia article on Neutral Buoyancy: "When neutral buoyancy is taking place, it appears as though the object/substance is floating in the middle of the fluid, or somewhere in between the bottom and the surface."

From NASA's Neutral Buoyancy Lab pdf: "If an item is made neutrally buoyant through a combination of weights and flotation devices, it will seem to "hover" under water."

Here is the Mirriam-Webster definition of Positive Buoyancy:  "a condition of weight and mass relationships of a ship (as a submarine) in which it will float unless mechanical devices (as diving planes) are employed or unless additional weight is taken on".

When any surface vessel, whether a barge, floating drydock, or even a sailboat with water-ballast tanks, takes on ballast it still maintains positive buoyancy. It simply has less of it and sinks down until the forces balance and it sits at a new waterline. This is what Mighty Servant 1 does. The forward part of the ship and the two towers at the stern remain above water. The problems of how quickly water is pumped out of the tanks and in what order is real, but the vessel never loses it's positive buoyancy, otherwise it would completely submerge and keep going down unless something happened to counteract it's now negative buoyancy. Yes, a load getting out of position can cause stability problems and perhaps even a capsize of the vessel, but that is a different issue involving (in most cases) a difference between center-of-gravity and center-of-buoyancy. When everything works right, the load's buoyancy gradually becomes less than it's weight, but this is counteracted by the increasing positive buoyancy of the lifting vessel.

While Submarine School in Groton was a LONG time ago, I'm aware that most submarines (especially military ones) maintain a slight positive buoyancy and use hydrodynamic forces to maintain depth. Some research subs don't (they usually can drop a weight in an emergency). I was trying to keep the discussion simple.

In regards to ASDS position keeping: the barges are kept in position by four thrusters (one at each corner). These provide for both orientation and position. Mighty Servant 1 appears to simply anchor in areas where this sort of operation can be carried out. When conditions are right, the vessel lowers itself and tugs maneuver the load into position over the deck. Once it is secured, then the vessel lifts it. Other than the anchor, there does not seem to be any active control over the vessel's heading. This is why the conditions have to be just right.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: VaBlue on 07/01/2021 07:18 pm
The point wasn't to discuss submarine operations, it was to say that MS1 can hold it's position well enough for a rocket to land on it.  Using two controllable pitch blades, two thrusters up front, and getting heavy in the water (to further dampen wave action), it can make itself a very stable booster landing pad without using anchors.

I don't think we're far apart.  One thing I can whole-heartedly agree with, though, is that sub school in Rotten Groton was a looonnngggg time ago...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 07/01/2021 08:36 pm
https://spaceexplored.com/2021/06/27/exclusive-spacexs-newest-droneship-gets-starlink-dish-and-a-tug-to-take-it-home/

ASOG close to completion
Starlink dish added
Port side deck extension added
Majority of scaffolding removed
Sea trials expected soon
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AC in NC on 07/01/2021 09:27 pm
The point wasn't to discuss submarine operations, it was to say that MS1 can hold it's position well enough for a rocket to land on it.  Using two controllable pitch blades, two thrusters up front, and getting heavy in the water (to further dampen wave action), it can make itself a very stable booster landing pad without using anchors.

I don't think we're far apart.  One thing I can whole-heartedly agree with, though, is that sub school in Rotten Groton was a looonnngggg time ago...

Sorry for asking if this is a stupid question but....

Is this station keeping autonomous and relative to a GPS coordinate?  I imagine it to be manual and relative to what it's loading/unloading.  It doesn't seem to me like the MS1's blades and bow thrusters would provide sufficient control authority to meet the needs of holding on a GPS coordinate.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Asteroza on 07/01/2021 10:57 pm
The point wasn't to discuss submarine operations, it was to say that MS1 can hold it's position well enough for a rocket to land on it.  Using two controllable pitch blades, two thrusters up front, and getting heavy in the water (to further dampen wave action), it can make itself a very stable booster landing pad without using anchors.

I don't think we're far apart.  One thing I can whole-heartedly agree with, though, is that sub school in Rotten Groton was a looonnngggg time ago...

Sorry for asking if this is a stupid question but....

Is this station keeping autonomous and relative to a GPS coordinate?  I imagine it to be manual and relative to what it's loading/unloading.  It doesn't seem to me like the MS1's blades and bow thrusters would provide sufficient control authority to meet the needs of holding on a GPS coordinate.

Some vessels have dynamic positioning systems for position holding (main, or supportive), with their level of redundancy/performance in the shown number, like DP2 or DP3. Strangely, the Boskalis quicksheet PDF for Might Servent 1 doesn't mention dynamic position systems...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 07/02/2021 02:33 am
The point wasn't to discuss submarine operations, it was to say that MS1 can hold it's position well enough for a rocket to land on it.  Using two controllable pitch blades, two thrusters up front, and getting heavy in the water (to further dampen wave action), it can make itself a very stable booster landing pad without using anchors.

I don't think we're far apart.  One thing I can whole-heartedly agree with, though, is that sub school in Rotten Groton was a looonnngggg time ago...

Sorry for asking if this is a stupid question but....

Is this station keeping autonomous and relative to a GPS coordinate?  I imagine it to be manual and relative to what it's loading/unloading.  It doesn't seem to me like the MS1's blades and bow thrusters would provide sufficient control authority to meet the needs of holding on a GPS coordinate.

Some vessels have dynamic positioning systems for position holding (main, or supportive), with their level of redundancy/performance in the shown number, like DP2 or DP3. Strangely, the Boskalis quicksheet PDF for Might Servent 1 doesn't mention dynamic position systems...

With the proliferation of GPS across the marine industry these days, position-holding is common enough that quite frankly I'd be surprised if they did.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: litton4 on 07/07/2021 12:38 pm
Someone from NSF needs to contact Long Beach Fire Station 15 to see if you can mount a camera on their roof.

I didn't see a branch of Rusty's anywhere near.....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 07/07/2021 09:34 pm
https://spaceexplored.com/2021/07/07/update-on-spacexs-gulf-coast-fleet-a-shortfall-of-gravitas-droneship-and-phobos-launch-platform/

ASOG crew safety equipment installed, sea trials expected soon.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 07/08/2021 12:06 am
https://spaceexplored.com/2021/07/07/update-on-spacexs-gulf-coast-fleet-a-shortfall-of-gravitas-droneship-and-phobos-launch-platform/

ASOG crew safety equipment installed, sea trials expected soon.

This will be exciting to see.  With 3 ASDS the Starlink launch cadence will be able to hit Ludicrous mode. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 07/09/2021 11:25 am
https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1413456742860550147
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/09/2021 01:55 pm
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1413492638389399553

Quote
Finn and ASOG have now entered the Gulf of Mexico and are no longer under assistance of local tugs. Let the sea trials begin! 🤞#SpaceXFleet
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/09/2021 08:42 pm
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1413598670331711493

Quote
Autonomous SpaceX droneship,
A Shortfall of Gravitas
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 07/09/2021 08:48 pm
That is one badass-looking barge!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: StraumliBlight on 07/09/2021 08:50 pm
Wait, can ASOG travel without tugs to the landing site?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/09/2021 09:00 pm
twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1413600776572788736

Quote
ASOG analysis:

- Appears to be moving forward by itself without a tug in this clip, may be fully autonomous
- Different wing design to JRTI and OCISLY, more circular.
- The GSE is so much cleaner. No more random containers, everything is boxed in.
- Already has Starlink dishes.

Edit to add:

https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1413606211627401216

Quote
Analysis Cont.

- Same thrusters as Just Read the Instructions droneship.
- ASOG's Octagrabber robot is already ready and waiting in Florida.
- The white tank is a Nitrogen tank. It is used to pressurize Falcon 9 during transit. OCISLY and JRTI have tanks too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jpo234 on 07/09/2021 09:09 pm
That is one badass-looking barge!
A proper GCU. As part of SC it's supposed to look mean.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 07/09/2021 09:46 pm
Wait, can ASOG travel without tugs to the landing site?
Sure looks like it! Much more autonomous ship-like than barge-like compared to just read the instructions and of course I still love you.

If they got REALLY good at this, I’m principle you don’t need crew at all except near the port or for regulatory reasons or on-call ready to helicopter over there. There are major safety and operational advantages to that, although I suspect it’ll be years and years of practice before you could actually do a fully recovery and return to near the port without humans on board at any point.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/09/2021 10:41 pm
twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/1413599420164100097

Quote
Will ASOG be fully automated? No tug boat required?

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1413624409848434689

Quote
Yes
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 07/09/2021 11:43 pm
Around 17 seconds into the drone video, a thin line is somewhat visible going forward from the bowsprit frame.
If this is a line from a tug, it's very, very long, and not very heavy..

Even though Musk answered "Yes" to whether ASOG could be autonomous, he may not have meant that to cover from the mouth of the port out and back.

That is the Darth Vader of Autonomous Drone Ships. 
Incredibly sleek
And black
They even got rid of the yellow guard rail paint.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 07/10/2021 12:05 am
Around 17 seconds into the drone video, a thin line is somewhat visible going forward from the bowsprit frame.
If this is a line from a tug, it's very, very long, and not very heavy..

Even though Musk answered "Yes" to whether ASOG could be autonomous, he may not have meant that to cover from the mouth of the port out and back.

That is the Darth Vader of Autonomous Drone Ships. 
Incredibly sleek
And black
They even got rid of the yellow guard rail paint.
Really? I checked and couldn’t see any tug even straight ahead. If it is attached, it isn’t carrying any load. The vehicle is self-propelled.

Also, if you think you see something, take a screenshot, illustrate it, and attach it to your post.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 07/10/2021 12:08 am
I see nothing at the 17 second mark. I think you’re imagining things
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: alugobi on 07/10/2021 12:12 am
If there were a tug out there, we'd see its wake.  There's nothing there but undisturbed water.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Comga on 07/10/2021 12:35 am
If there were a tug out there, we'd see its wake.  There's nothing there but undisturbed water.

The undisturbed water is a very good point.
I think I see the line in that screenshot, and in a similar screenshot captured on my computer, and it's slightly more visible in the video, but as said, if it is a line, it's extremely long and thin.
And we would see it disturbing the water somewhere just ahead of ASOG.
The "line"  could be a video artifact.
Or a figment of my imagination.
ASOG is clearly under power.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: aero on 07/10/2021 01:17 am
There is likely a support ship out there somewhere nearby. It could very well be a tug.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DAZ on 07/10/2021 01:23 am
In the video, you can see 2 people at the back of the ASOG, so it is not unmanned.  A support ship could be just a mile or 2 away and it would be hard to see.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: joek on 07/10/2021 02:46 am
twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/1413599420164100097
Quote
Will ASOG be fully automated? No tug boat required?
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1413624409848434689
Quote
Yes

Cool. But did not say "crewless". Could see it having minimal crew for transit with a small(ish) support vessel to on- and off-load load crew at LZ or near port. That would reduce cost-complexity?

Asking as believe there were points raised in previous threads about regulations regarding crewless vehicles. Have those reg's changed or is this one way of meeting the reg's without requiring a tug tied to the ASDS for most of the duration?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AstroDave on 07/10/2021 02:49 am
  First, that is one awesome video! The autonomous capability is exciting to think about. I would be interested in knowing what the costs of having a dedicated tug assigned to the drone ship for multiple days (especially with a launch delay) are, and how that compares to the operational costs of an autonomous vessel. If a support vessel is required, that could still be much less cost than a dedicated tug. Granted, it would probably need tug assist close to port as Robotbeat has pointed out.

  Second, if anyone sees something please post a pic of it! Comga, I can see what you were talking about, but I over watched that clip too many times trying to see the "thin line" coming off the bow. My opinion is that it is a wave artifact, and can be seen easier when video is running between the 16 and 17 second mark. Robotbeat's posted screenshot shows the moment, but without the video running the visual artifact can't be seen.

  As for the people on the fantail that DAZ pointed out, I have included a screenshot to put that to rest. Good spotting DAZ!
 
  Also, for those interested, the small frame coming off the front is used to hold a tagline going to the towing bridle. When a tug needs to hook up to the bridle, the tagline is passed to the tug, which can then pull the bridle close enough to allow easier attachment of the towing cable.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kabloona on 07/10/2021 03:01 am
That is one badass-looking barge!

It looks kinda like a Littoral Combat Ship and MARMAC 301 had a baby...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Norm38 on 07/10/2021 03:03 am
This ship is so cool. Makes total sense to be fully automated out of the harbor. As fast as it appears to be moving here, a ship of that class is not fast. If the ship can sail out and loiter unmanned, then a crew can head out much closer to launch in a smaller, faster vessel.
And then after securing the booster, race back ahead to port. In this way the same number of personnel can support more launches.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 07/10/2021 03:35 am
Okay guys, easy. A little common sense should be applied. Regardless of if it’s capable of running self propelled the entire mission, it is extremely (and I mean basically 100%) unlikely it’s uncrewed. There are, what, four large diesel gensets running with a ton of ancillary equipment that need at minimum an engineer and a mate. You don’t send this kind of vessel out without maint crew, and if there’s even a single soul aboard then there needs to be a support ship to disembark said crew for the landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AstroDave on 07/10/2021 03:40 am
  Another crew member located! They are standing on starboard bow and can be seen at the 16-17 second mark (see second image below). This is like a "Where's Waldo?" challenge. In watching the video for the umpteenth time, I saw a few more things to point out.

  First image is of the forward flag mast. It is showing a single diamond day shape, which is consistent with a vessel being towed. Is ASOG being towed? No, there isn't a tug in sight that could be pulling ASOG like that without leaving a visible wake. The crew probably got a little excited when engines were fired up and towline dropped, and forgot to strike the day shape.

  Second image also shows why vessel isn't being towed. The chains of the bridle are being pushed under the bow as the ship makes forward way. Any towing, and those chains would not be doing that. Also, the bridle pennant has been secured to the bow. My guess is that the light blue line is the heaving line for the pennant.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AstroDave on 07/10/2021 04:00 am
Okay guys, easy. A little common sense should be applied. Regardless of if it’s capable of running self propelled the entire mission, it is extremely (and I mean basically 100%) unlikely it’s uncrewed. There are, what, four large diesel gensets running with a ton of ancillary equipment that need at minimum an engineer and a mate. You don’t send this kind of vessel out without maint crew, and if there’s even a single soul aboard then there needs to be a support ship to disembark said crew for the landing.

Great points.

Link to article that touches on same subject matter:
https://www.maritime-executive.com/editorials/why-we-will-never-see-fully-autonomous-commercial-ships
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hamish.Student on 07/10/2021 04:26 am
Okay guys, easy. A little common sense should be applied. Regardless of if it’s capable of running self propelled the entire mission, it is extremely (and I mean basically 100%) unlikely it’s uncrewed. There are, what, four large diesel gensets running with a ton of ancillary equipment that need at minimum an engineer and a mate. You don’t send this kind of vessel out without maint crew, and if there’s even a single soul aboard then there needs to be a support ship to disembark said crew for the landing.

Great points.

Link to article that touches on same subject matter:
https://www.maritime-executive.com/editorials/why-we-will-never-see-fully-autonomous-commercial-ships
 
 
Thankyou! That was my first thought about this whole thing, its just not possible under current legalities. 
Wish people wouldnt get so carried away about things. Just because it has the capability doesnt mean it will actually run autonomously from Port - Port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 07/10/2021 04:39 am
ASOG looks fast in that video. 

I’m interested to see what it’s cycle time per flight is going to be.  That could be the pacing item for Starlink flights. 

Also will JRTI need an upgrade now or will it lumber along in its old timer ways.

This is excellent. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 07/10/2021 05:26 am
In the video, you can see 2 people at the back of the ASOG, so it is not unmanned.  A support ship could be just a mile or 2 away and it would be hard to see.
There are regulatory reasons why it has to be crewed while underway under its own power.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kevinof on 07/10/2021 07:31 am
In the video, you can see 2 people at the back of the ASOG, so it is not unmanned.  A support ship could be just a mile or 2 away and it would be hard to see.
There are regulatory reasons why it has to be crewed while underway under its own power.
Autonomous vessels have crossed the Atlantic under their own power and control.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jpo234 on 07/10/2021 09:46 am
That is the Darth Vader of Autonomous Drone Ships. 
Wrong franchise. It's named after a Culture ship. Fan made GCU from here (https://www.deviantart.com/stevereeves/art/General-Contact-Units-GCUs-747418428).

Safe to post, it's Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Norm38 on 07/10/2021 01:19 pm
There are regulatory reasons why it has to be crewed while underway under its own power.

Elon has been butting heads against lots of regulations as of late. What’s one more?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JamesH65 on 07/10/2021 01:33 pm
There are regulatory reasons why it has to be crewed while underway under its own power.

Elon has been butting heads against lots of regulations as of late. What’s one more?

He may butt against them, but he doesn't break them (mostly).

Saying FY to the regulations about autonomous craft would be foolish. The regulations are there for a reason, you just need to work with them, and if necessary work to have them adjusted to take in to account recent technology.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 07/10/2021 01:38 pm
There are regulatory reasons why it has to be crewed while underway under its own power.

Elon has been butting heads against lots of regulations as of late. What’s one more?

He may butt against them, but he doesn't break them (mostly).

Saying FY to the regulations about autonomous craft would be foolish. The regulations are there for a reason, you just need to work with them, and if necessary work to have them adjusted to take in to account recent technology.

It can't be that hard to have a small chase boat that will allow the crew to offload when ASOG is station keeping for the landing. Then the crew gets back on and returns to port.

Is there anyway to make boarding easy and safe at rougher conditions? I always thought 2 boats heaving in heavy seas was kind of dangerous.

The other option is some kind of bomb shelter on the boat.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 07/10/2021 02:00 pm
In the video, you can see 2 people at the back of the ASOG, so it is not unmanned.  A support ship could be just a mile or 2 away and it would be hard to see.
There are regulatory reasons why it has to be crewed while underway under its own power.
Autonomous vessels have crossed the Atlantic under their own power and control.
That is true.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kevinof on 07/10/2021 02:23 pm
In the video, you can see 2 people at the back of the ASOG, so it is not unmanned.  A support ship could be just a mile or 2 away and it would be hard to see.
There are regulatory reasons why it has to be crewed while underway under its own power.
Autonomous vessels have crossed the Atlantic under their own power and control.
That is true.
No regulations exist for autonomous ships so the current regs have to apply. The SpaceX drone ships are classed as “degree 3” which is under the control of a crew but with no seafarers on board. So long as the “master” of the ship has the appropriate qualifications,  keeps a proper lookout then they should be ok. This can be done from a support vessel that is in the location.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Frogstar_Robot on 07/10/2021 02:27 pm
We covered this topic in detail in another thread, but the IMO are still working on creating regulations specific to autonomous shipping. Until then, there are interim guidelines. Full info at https://www.imo.org/en/MediaCentre/HotTopics/Pages/Autonomous-shipping.aspx
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 07/11/2021 03:52 am
Good spotting @AstroDave. To me it looks like that third crew member is the one flying the camera drone.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 07/11/2021 04:27 am
What ASoG is missing is a pilot house with a big wooden wheel on top of the equipment deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DistantTemple on 07/11/2021 12:29 pm
What ASoG is missing is a pilot house with a big wooden wheel on top of the equipment deck.
Ha ha :-)
No: Just like an SPMT, the Master of this ship just needs an upturned vegetable crate, to sit on, and a remote control.
Maybe the luxury of a binnacle with a chart plotter and radar screen... a sea-version of London's Docklands-Light-Railway occasional "operator console".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: VaBlue on 07/11/2021 12:43 pm
What ASoG is missing is a pilot house with a big wooden wheel on top of the equipment deck.

What about a teak deck in the pilot house?  Jeez, SpaceX is throwing out tradition like it's an old idea...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DistantTemple on 07/11/2021 01:11 pm
What ASoG is missing is a pilot house with a big wooden wheel on top of the equipment deck.
Ha ha :-)
No: Just like an SPMT, the Master of this ship just needs an upturned vegetable crate, to sit on, and a remote control.
Maybe the luxury of a binnacle with a chart plotter and radar screen... a sea-version of London's Docklands-Light-Railway occasional "operator console".
Quoting myself...
If SX can officially classify OSOG missions as experimental, and follow the IMO rules to notify other mariners in the area, then it CAN run ASOG autonomously and/or remote controlled! (After a reading of all the quoted maritime article quoted above)
Obviously monitoring of the gensets and other equipment is essential, but gensets run without a local engineer frequently for power backup at hospitals etc. I bet SX is trying to make operation as bullet proof as possible.
I can't imagine that there isn't a captain's helm/console/post built in. All required lookout IMO requirements can be achieved with remote cameras.

However since all camera feeds, ship sensors, engine/genset etc data, and navigational and radar data need to be piped to a remote operator, it would make sense that it could all be piped to an SX developed(/ing) standard console with several screens, a couple of joystiks and a keyboard! Just like Dragon 2 can be controlled with 3 touchscreens. However on a ship with more interaction with other shipping etc, and more propulsion and control variation it will be a larger version... more like a drone pilot uses.

There is NO support ship visible in a few miles around ASOG in the video, only an oil rig. However as others have said one will be needed to take crew off for the landing. And to supply crew to intervene to make sure the octograbber is 100% successful etc.  I hope Elon is right, and they will soon succeed in (increasing... full?) autonomy, despite the difficulties.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 07/11/2021 05:10 pm
Sounds like a lot of discussion is around ASOG being autonomous.  I don’t care, I think that it being self propelled is the story.  They need a crew regardless, but it looks faster and will need less handling to get there and back.

This is going to be exciting to see how much they improve the recovery operations now that they have 5 years of ASDS experience. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Frogstar_Robot on 07/11/2021 05:33 pm
According to marinetraffic.com, Finn Falgout is in the Gulf of Mexico, heading for Port Canaveral. Status is "towing astern".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: darkenfast on 07/11/2021 10:22 pm
I believe the increased ASDS power is at least party because of the need to hold position in the Gulf Stream. It was mentioned a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Doesitfloat on 07/12/2021 09:13 pm
Spacex has shown video of all the ASDS underway during their Sea Trial of checkout.  Yes all have been capable of driving themselves to the recovery location. For one reason or another they didn't.  In addition you can see the chain towing bridal at 17 seconds in the video. It is hanging in the water but you can see the chain attached to the bollards on the bow.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jansen on 07/12/2021 10:20 pm
https://twitter.com/spacexfleet/status/1414710919947509765
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: danneely on 07/13/2021 12:00 am
Spacex has shown video of all the ASDS underway during their Sea Trial of checkout.  Yes all have been capable of driving themselves to the recovery location. For one reason or another they didn't.  In addition you can see the chain towing bridal at 17 seconds in the video. It is hanging in the water but you can see the chain attached to the bollards on the bow.

IIRC even with the upgraded thrusters the tugs can still tow them faster than they can move under their own power.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cpushack on 07/13/2021 06:12 am
Spacex has shown video of all the ASDS underway during their Sea Trial of checkout.  Yes all have been capable of driving themselves to the recovery location. For one reason or another they didn't.  In addition you can see the chain towing bridal at 17 seconds in the video. It is hanging in the water but you can see the chain attached to the bollards on the bow.

IIRC even with the upgraded thrusters the tugs can still tow them faster than they can move under their own power.

And way more efficient as well
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 07/13/2021 08:34 am
And under all current legislation they must be crewed whilst underway. The crew cannot be on-board for landing and it cannot be ruled out that a stage impacting the droneship would not incapacitate it and prevent it returning under its own power. Which means you need a support ship to travel with it at a minimum that is capable of returning crew to shore (so not just a small moored launch), and need a tug available to recover the droneship at the ready. With the travel time advantage of the tug, and the need for turnarounds to be as fast as possible for ongoing launch operations, there's no advantage to having the droneship travel under its own power on either leg of the journey independent of a tug.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 07/15/2021 03:22 am
And under all current legislation they must be crewed whilst underway. The crew cannot be on-board for landing and it cannot be ruled out that a stage impacting the droneship would not incapacitate it and prevent it returning under its own power. Which means you need a support ship to travel with it at a minimum that is capable of returning crew to shore (so not just a small moored launch), and need a tug available to recover the droneship at the ready. With the travel time advantage of the tug, and the need for turnarounds to be as fast as possible for ongoing launch operations, there's no advantage to having the droneship travel under its own power on either leg of the journey independent of a tug.

Exactly.  And for all those reasons, the only potentially practical way to increase that turn-around time would be to carry the ASDS out on the back of a vessel like MS1, drop it off, move a safe distance away and then pick it up again once the booster has landed - weather permitting... but that's the issue: the weather, hence the best way to get the current iterations of ASDS out and back in heavy-ish weather is towed behind a tug.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/15/2021 01:07 pm
https://twitter.com/baserunner0723/status/1415657968545193986

Quote
Becoming clearer #ASOG
#SpacexFleet
📸 me for @Space_Explored
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/15/2021 03:51 pm
https://twitter.com/johnkrausphotos/status/1415699733021085696

Quote
It’s here.

SpaceX’s long-awaited “A Shortfall of Gravitas” droneship has arrived at Port Canaveral in Florida.

That’s one badass-looking rocket landing platform.

Edit to add:

https://twitter.com/johnkrausphotos/status/1415704723781472258

Quote
SpaceX's "A Shortfall of Gravitas" droneship arrives at its new home: Cape Canaveral, Florida.

Time to catch some rockets.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/15/2021 03:53 pm
https://twitter.com/nasaspaceflight/status/1415700835569389574

Quote
Some amazing views of SpaceX's new drone ship ASOG arriving into Port Canaveral from a chopper.

Occasionally dipping in live via Fleetcam: youtube.com/watch?v=gnt2wZ…

A few clips:

Edit to add:

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1415703523342290944

Quote
It's been 1,249 days since @elonmusk announced that a third droneship, A Shortfall of Gravitas, would join the SpaceX fleet. Today we welcome ASOG to Port Canaveral! The updated design shields the engines from the harsh Atlantic and gives hint to more autonomous capabilities.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/15/2021 04:16 pm
https://youtu.be/z7lGrOTxpLI
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/15/2021 04:35 pm
https://twitter.com/spacecoast_stve/status/1415710393083772932

Quote
A Shortfall Of Gravitas has arrived at her new home, and she is gorgeous!

I can’t wait to see her deployed for her first mission!

As always, Fleetcam is your destination to follow along with fleet operations: youtu.be/gnt2wZBg89g
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: StraumliBlight on 07/15/2021 06:49 pm
Old ASDS vs new comparison:

https://twitter.com/NickyX15A/status/1415738154217361415/photo/1
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Wolfram66 on 07/15/2021 07:33 pm
Old ASDS vs new comparison:

https://twitter.com/NickyX15A/status/1415738154217361415/photo/1


Octograbber 3 waiting patiently on shore to get on its new home
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/16/2021 05:15 pm
https://youtu.be/9gcl0VYmraM

Quote
SpaceX's newest Droneship, "A Shortfall of Gravitas" arrives in Port Canaveral, Florida after completing sea trials in the Gulf of Mexico. "ASOG" will be used to recover Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy boosters in the Atlantic Ocean.

Video & Photos from Thomas (@TGMetsFan98), Stephen (@spacecoast_stve) and Fleetcam. Edited by Brady Kenniston (@TheFavoritist)

All content copyright to NSF. Not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from NSF.

Click "Join" for access to early fast turnaround clips, exclusive discord access with the NSF team, etc - to support the channel.

Rolling Updates and Discussion: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/ind...

Articles: https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/?s=St...

NSF Store: https://shop.nasaspaceflight.com/

L2 Boca Chica (more clips and photos) from BC's very early days to today.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/ind...
(Join L2 and support NSF here: https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/l2/)

0:00 “A Shortfall of Gravitas”
1:08 Photos from Arrival
1:53 Tug Finn Falgout Tows “ASOG” into Port Canaveral
3:45 Tug Boats Maneuver “ASOG” Toward its Berth
4:43 Tug Finn Falgout’s Job is Finished
5:23 “A Shortfall of Gravitas” is Berthed Next to “Just Read the Instructions”
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 07/16/2021 06:49 pm
Does anybody have knots for:
1. ASOG under self power.
2. ASOG under tow. This should be available from vessel tracking.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/16/2021 07:39 pm
https://twitter.com/gregscott_photo/status/1416101251322990594

Quote
A Shortfall of Gravitas (ASOG) joins JRTI in Port this morning. Sitting side by side the differences are readily apparent from size to equipment to condition. ASOG is truly a purpose made ship ready to get underway on its 1st assignment, hopefully soon. #NASA #SpaceX #SpaceXfleet
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: UnBoricua on 07/17/2021 01:16 pm
Old ASDS vs new comparison:

https://twitter.com/NickyX15A/status/1415738154217361415/photo/1

there is a clearer shot of ASOG from the air that shows it better, but WHO is the robot face? I have a memory of a robot, but I think is from (a movie?)  I have read and written tons of SciFi, so I'm lost on this one. But... Maybe someone here spots it? ;D

Edit: Sorry, can't put the picture from StraumBlight here for you to see... but it's just above this post...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: danneely on 07/17/2021 05:28 pm
Old ASDS vs new comparison:

https://twitter.com/NickyX15A/status/1415738154217361415/photo/1

there is a clearer shot of ASOG from the air that shows it better, but WHO is the robot face? I have a memory of a robot, but I think is from (a movie?)  I have read and written tons of SciFi, so I'm lost on this one. But... Maybe someone here spots it? ;D

Edit: Sorry, can't put the picture from StraumBlight here for you to see... but it's just above this post...

Where is the face you're asking about?  I don't see anything facelike (unless you're really really stretching the octograbbers on JRTI and ashore) in the picture.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/18/2021 05:49 pm
https://twitter.com/w00ki33/status/1416814105021739012

Quote
Little welders for scale working underneath Of Course I Still Love You during the droneship’s arrival in California last week. @NASASpaceflight
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: UnBoricua on 07/18/2021 08:05 pm
Old ASDS vs new comparison:

https://twitter.com/NickyX15A/status/1415738154217361415/photo/1

there is a clearer shot of ASOG from the air that shows it better, but WHO is the robot face? I have a memory of a robot, but I think is from (a movie?)  I have read and written tons of SciFi, so I'm lost on this one. But... Maybe someone here spots it? ;D

Edit: Sorry, can't put the picture from StraumBlight here for you to see... but it's just above this post...

Where is the face you're asking about?  I don't see anything facelike (unless you're really really stretching the octograbbers on JRTI and ashore) in the picture.

ASOG itself. Blue containers the eyes. The white structure, the mouth. Zoom the image and you see. (of course as a budding writer, I see things where others may not...)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/08/2021 07:41 am
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1424187323789500416

Quote
A Shortfall of Gravitas has returned to Port Canaveral after a long day of autonomous sea trials. This was the second trial and first for ASOG on the rough Atlantic Ocean. Welcome home Finn and SpaceX techs! #SpaceXFleet

https://twitter.com/jennyhphoto/status/1424186596895625222

Quote
SpaceX's newest droneship, A Shortfall of Gravitas returns to Port Canaveral after a daylong sea trial. #SpaceXFleet

📷: Me for @SuperclusterHQ
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: cscott on 08/12/2021 02:34 pm
New tugs for the drone ships:
https://twitter.com/SpaceOffshore/status/1425370161377329153?s=19
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/12/2021 08:02 pm
Great photo

https://twitter.com/jennyhphoto/status/1425910259210756109

Quote
All of the SpaceX fleet huddled together at Port Canaveral. @SpaceOffshore

📷: Me for @SuperclusterHQ
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/15/2021 06:28 pm
https://twitter.com/jennyhphoto/status/1426948794797670404

Quote
Details of the SpaceX fleet.
The people by Octograbber on ASOG and the person on JRTI show the incredible scale of the droneships!
Also, spot the Falcon 9 Booster cap?

📷: Me for @SuperclusterHQ
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: harrystranger on 08/25/2021 08:01 am
I forgot to share this here recently, but with the help of Gav we spotted Of Course I Still Love You in a dry dock in Ensenada, Mexico. Likely undergoing repairs/upgrades.
https://twitter.com/Harry__Stranger/status/1430014772263620614?s
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/26/2021 10:11 pm
https://twitter.com/w00ki33/status/1431004177979772930

Quote
A few aerials of SpaceX droneship OCISLY pulling into the driveway in Long Beach, CA after spending a few weeks dry-docked in a shipyard in Mexico.
@NASASpaceflight
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 08/27/2021 04:11 am
Quote
A few aerials of SpaceX droneship OCISLY pulling into the driveway in Long Beach, CA after spending a few weeks dry-docked in a shipyard in Mexico.

That would be for the Load Line and Annual Hull Surveys due back in June.

It's a shame they didn't bother painting the deck whilst they were refreshing the antifoul.  Maybe they've got some upgrade works in planning?
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ZachS09 on 02/03/2022 03:11 pm
Is there any further news of JRTI's condition? Like, when will it be eligible for recovery operations again?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 02/03/2022 04:02 pm
Just Read the Instructions damage and repair, following the return to Port Canaveral after the December 21 ASDS recovery of the SpX-24 booster, began here in the launch thread.
https://twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/1476272302232793098 (https://twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/1476272302232793098)

woah

Any eyes in Florida on JRTI and her octograbber?  Hope they’re back in service soon.  Another RTLS in CSG-2 means they can potentially sit out for about a month
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: su27k on 04/09/2022 02:56 am
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1512497620727607306

Quote
Smooth video courtesy of bolting Starlinks to the deck. They are able to handle high vibration & acoustics.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JayWee on 07/07/2022 08:07 pm
Quote
SpaceX has released a document explaining how they used Starlink to improve Falcon 9 landing video.

Also, neat picture.
https://api.starlink.com/public-files/SpaceXNavyStarlink-case-study.pdf

Quote
At over $165k per month for 25 Mb/s download by 25 Mb/s upload of pre-paid bandwidth, satellite internet was
one of the top operating costs for SpaceX’s recovery fleet. And because the vehicle can generate 100s of GBs of
data, SpaceX regularly paid costly overage fees.
So $165k/month is "one of top operating costs".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: mpusch on 07/07/2022 11:43 pm
Very interesting document. I presume that since Starlink is internal, that the $50k in monthly costs with it (10 vessels at $5k each) is a decent indication of expected costs for other maritime commercial users.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 07/08/2022 12:25 am
Very interesting document. I presume that since Starlink is internal, that the $50k in monthly costs with it (10 vessels at $5k each) is a decent indication of expected costs for other maritime commercial users.

I very much doubt the majority of commercial users would require the kind of bandwidth that SpaceX needs, but the document certainly gives a good justification of the reasons behind building Starlink in the first place.  If your satellite internet connections are costing you too much, build your own!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: etudiant on 07/08/2022 12:52 am
Very interesting document. I presume that since Starlink is internal, that the $50k in monthly costs with it (10 vessels at $5k each) is a decent indication of expected costs for other maritime commercial users.

I very much doubt the majority of commercial users would require the kind of bandwidth that SpaceX needs, but the document certainly gives a good justification of the reasons behind building Starlink in the first place.  If your satellite internet connections are costing you too much, build your own!

The cruise lines certainly want the Starlink data rates. Current ship board data service is poor.
They see thousands of customers per ship happy to pay top dollar to call home and to share their trip videos.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: danneely on 07/10/2022 07:34 pm
Very interesting document. I presume that since Starlink is internal, that the $50k in monthly costs with it (10 vessels at $5k each) is a decent indication of expected costs for other maritime commercial users.

I very much doubt the majority of commercial users would require the kind of bandwidth that SpaceX needs, but the document certainly gives a good justification of the reasons behind building Starlink in the first place.  If your satellite internet connections are costing you too much, build your own!

Yeah, mid-ocean internet is mostly not just GEO but 10-20 year old GEO or tiny LEO constellations like Iridium.  Very few customers and very limited capacity results in even a baseline connection being expensive and useage rates even worse if if you need a decent amount of bandwidth.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/25/2022 07:02 pm
https://twitter.com/spaceoffshore/status/1551641702385025024

Quote
Just Read the Instructions has returned from 3-day offshore maintenance work.

Based on the activity seen, likely to have been underwater hull inspections. OCISLY did something very similar last year before it was moved to the West Coast.

nasaspaceflight.com/fleetcam
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Hamish.Student on 07/25/2022 09:37 pm
Quote
OCISLY did something very similar last year before it was moved to the West Coast.
 
Is this implying OCISLY could be moved? Or is this just a routine every x months or x nautical miles inspection?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 07/25/2022 11:28 pm
Quote
OCISLY did something very similar last year before it was moved to the West Coast.
 
Is this implying OCISLY could be moved? Or is this just a routine every x months or x nautical miles inspection?

Annual hull inspections are a condition of commercial vessel registration (for insurance purposes) and will be part of SpX's lease arrangements with the owners.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rondaz on 08/01/2022 10:05 am
And here are some notable mentions!

Just Read The Instructions! A shortfall of Gravitas is getting a new paint job! F9 booster at Port Canaveral!

https://twitter.com/FelixSchlang/status/1553869833124691970
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/22/2022 10:00 pm
https://twitter.com/spaceoffshore/status/1561834706685108224

Quote
Just Read the Instructions has been out of service undergoing some major work!

Visual changes appear to be new engine generator housing and the replacement of the deck-edge barrier that stops boosters tipping off the side 🤪

twitter.com/jennyhphoto/status/1561834581019574273

Quote
It looks like Just Read The Instructions has been undergoing some maintenance. @SpaceOffshore
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 08/24/2022 01:23 am
Belated cross-post:
https://twitter.com/gregscott_photo/status/1560027811032842247

Quote
You used to never see 2 boosters in port on the dock at the same time but now days it is almost common place. BTW a fairing sitting nearby as well. Megan sits awaiting its next assignment & JRTI looks to be [having] some work done. #SpaceX #NASA
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 08/24/2022 01:25 am
When will the work on JRTI be complete?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sghill on 08/30/2022 09:36 pm
Don't know where to put this orphan post, so I'll place it here.

While sitting at Fishlips this week, I noticed one of the capsule recovery ships had a Dragon 1 Capsule on its deck! It did not at all look flown.

Anyone know the story here? Practice unit?

Sorry about the terrible photo. I was a few hundred yards away at dusk.

Bonus F9 booster photo thrown in for fun.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: alugobi on 08/30/2022 09:44 pm
It's used for water egress training for Dragon passengers. 

(aka astronauts.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 09/02/2022 04:46 am
When will the work on JRTI be complete?

ASDS recovery; Starlink 4-20 launches September 4 evening local time:
NextSpaceFlight (https://nextspaceflight.com/launches/details/6950), updated September 1:
ASDS is Just Read the Instructions.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rondaz on 09/02/2022 11:48 am
Bob departed New York last night and is heading back to Florida..

https://twitter.com/SpaceOffshore/status/1565348700301377539

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: su27k on 09/07/2022 04:00 am
Leaked video of F9 landing on droneship, filmed from the nearby support ship:

https://twitter.com/systems_zero/status/1566961113530613760
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 09/07/2022 06:26 am
"A launch in reverse".  We always said it was simple.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 10/09/2022 12:15 am
Nice overhead view of JRTI. Booster recover count is etched in JRTI’s deck:

https://twitter.com/jerrypikephoto/status/1578893166694264833

Quote
Cant forget to welcome back fresh looking B1077 who carried the #Crew5 astronauts to the International Space Station just 3 days ago
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 10/10/2022 04:01 am
Nice overhead view of JRTI. Booster recover count is etched in JRTI’s deck:

Quote
Cant forget to welcome back fresh looking B1077 who carried the #Crew5 astronauts to the International Space Station just 3 days ago

Interesting how ROUTINE this has all become!...

Am I considered 'old' if I say I can still remember the disbelief around the very first "landing" in the ocean and the significant effort folk on this very forum put in to recover that historic footage, now likely forgotten in the dusty archives of SpX history?!?  Surely it wasn't all that long ago.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AmigaClone on 10/10/2022 04:34 am
Nice overhead view of JRTI. Booster recover count is etched in JRTI’s deck:

Quote
Cant forget to welcome back fresh looking B1077 who carried the #Crew5 astronauts to the International Space Station just 3 days ago

Interesting how ROUTINE this has all become!...

Am I considered 'old' if I say I can still remember the disbelief around the very first "landing" in the ocean and the significant effort folk on this very forum put in to recover that historic footage, now likely forgotten in the dusty archives of SpX history?!?  Surely it wasn't all that long ago.

The first successful landing on a droneship was 8 April 2016 - six and a half years ago. Since then a Falcon first stage booster has successfully landed 116 times out of 123 - reaching port with the booster intact 115 of those occasions (the exception being a FH center core which landed safely but was unable to be secured for transport due to high seas.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: su27k on 10/10/2022 04:39 am
Interesting how ROUTINE this has all become!...

Am I considered 'old' if I say I can still remember the disbelief around the very first "landing" in the ocean and the significant effort folk on this very forum put in to recover that historic footage, now likely forgotten in the dusty archives of SpX history?!?  Surely it wasn't all that long ago.

Also remember how we watch the first booster recovered via droneship using the camera that shall not be named? Seeing SpaceX workers trying to figure out how to take off the legs, and they also burned the remaining TEA-TEB which caused firefighters to show up.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 10/10/2022 09:51 am
<snip>
Am I considered 'old' if I say I can still remember the disbelief around the very first "landing" in the ocean and the significant effort folk on this very forum put in to recover that historic footage, now likely forgotten in the dusty archives of SpX history?!?  Surely it wasn't all that long ago.
:)
Nah. You are just suffering reversed Elon Time dilution.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: leetdan on 10/10/2022 02:48 pm
Interesting how ROUTINE this has all become!...

Am I considered 'old' if I say I can still remember the disbelief around the very first "landing" in the ocean and the significant effort folk on this very forum put in to recover that historic footage, now likely forgotten in the dusty archives of SpX history?!?  Surely it wasn't all that long ago.


With how much this site's YouTube presence has blown up, it'd be good to see this important bit of NSF history showcased for the newer audience with a proper video.  The thread is still sticky on the SpaceX Reusability subforum, but I guarantee the large majority of video and stream viewers have no idea that it ever happened.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34597.0
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/19/2022 10:47 pm
https://twitter.com/omgfyitbh/status/1594043230190010369

Quote
Also got some pics of A Short Fall Of Gravitas. That looks like it's getting some maintenance done.
@SpaceOffshore
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/24/2022 05:49 am
https://twitter.com/_rykllan/status/1595662190920732672

Quote
Infographic of all #OCISLY landings
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/19/2022 01:29 pm
twitter.com/harry__stranger/status/1604845082972024837

Quote
High resolution satellite imagery reveals that SpaceX has made modifications to its west coast droneship over the past month.

The existing wings were removed and replaced with ones similar to those on A Shortfall of Gravitas.

Full image on @Soar_Earth: api.soar.earth/short/oa42271r2

https://twitter.com/harry__stranger/status/1604845087233429504

Quote
Hopefully, we'll get to see some high resolution photos of the finished upgrades soon as Of Course I Still Love You heads back out on missions.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 05/08/2023 08:34 pm
Cross-post:
https://twitter.com/SpaceOffshore/status/1655576418900688897
Quote
It's a rare sight to see all of SpaceX's East Coast recovery fleet together these days with such a busy launch schedule.

Here's a photo from this morning from http://nsf.live to capture the scene at Port Canaveral🌞
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: alugobi on 05/19/2023 04:12 pm
For last night's launch, we saw extended video of the landed booster and the fire hose spraying at the deck under the legs.

Why do they do that?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/23/2023 02:09 am
https://twitter.com/jerrypikephoto/status/1682877724271030275

Quote
Doug tows ASOG into Port Canaveral after spending the past few days offshore, likely doing maintenance on the droneship

https://twitter.com/jerrypikephoto/status/1682879821766963202

Quote
Doug and A Shortfall of Gravitas
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: spacenuance on 08/01/2023 12:50 am
Actual FULLY autonomous droneships coming soon?
https://twitter.com/JohnFerris62/status/1685940005280083969?s=20 (https://twitter.com/JohnFerris62/status/1685940005280083969?s=20)

https://twitter.com/SpaceOffshore/status/1686154188416303104?s=20 (https://twitter.com/SpaceOffshore/status/1686154188416303104?s=20)

Quote
If I've read this correctly as of July 30th, the US Coast Guard has approval from Congress to run a pilot program to evaluate the use of autonomous vessels, waiving existing navigational regulations for vessels in the program.

The use case for spaceflight recovery is specifically mentioned:

The activities authorized under this section include-

1) Remote over-the-horizon monitoring operations related to the active at-sea recovery of spaceflight components on an unmanned vessel or platform;

2) Procedures for the unaccompanied operation and monitoring of an unmanned spaceflight recovery vessel or platform

3) Unmanned vessel transits and testing operations without a physical tow line related to space launch and recovery operations, except within 12 nautical miles of a port.

My understanding is that this is something SpaceX and other providers have been looking for, for quite some time.

SpaceX still has hopes of fully autonomous droneship operations - without an accompanying vessel -  but appeared to have been bogged down by existing navigational laws. Maybe we will see it very soon!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 08/03/2023 02:48 am
Actual FULLY autonomous droneships coming soon?
Quote
If I've read this correctly as of July 30th, the US Coast Guard has approval from Congress to run a pilot program to evaluate the use of autonomous vessels, waiving existing navigational regulations for vessels in the program.

The use case for spaceflight recovery is specifically mentioned:

The activities authorized under this section include-

1) Remote over-the-horizon monitoring operations related to the active at-sea recovery of spaceflight components on an unmanned vessel or platform;

2) Procedures for the unaccompanied operation and monitoring of an unmanned spaceflight recovery vessel or platform

3) Unmanned vessel transits and testing operations without a physical tow line related to space launch and recovery operations, except within 12 nautical miles of a port.

My understanding is that this is something SpaceX and other providers have been looking for, for quite some time.

SpaceX still has hopes of fully autonomous droneship operations - without an accompanying vessel -  but appeared to have been bogged down by existing navigational laws. Maybe we will see it very soon!

That's not full port-to-LZ-and-back autonomous droneship operations... and the truth is, even if by some miracle the USCG did give them a waiver for FULLY autonomous operations, their insurance company probably wouldn't - hence the "except within 12 nautical miles of a port" bit.  There is too much damage a not-under-command droneship could do to other maritime operations to not have a quick-response support vessel at least somewhere nearby, even if not actually hooked up.

My guess is that eventually a single accompanying vessel is probably good enough though.  They need some kind of support ship out there anyways for fire control, standby telemetry relay etc. and I imagine being allowed to be rid of the tugs once away from the Port would itself be a cause of great celebration at SpX HQ.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edzieba on 08/03/2023 09:50 am
I can't imagine they'll be doing much autonomous work even with authorisation.
- A large support vessel capable of towing will be in the same area anyway for fairing recovery
- The ASDSes are very slow under their own power compared to under tow
- The ASDSes would need more fuel capacity for long journeys under their own power (not a dealbreaker, but certainly annoying to have to find places to stuff fuel without cramming more tanks exposed on deck or filling the underdeck space that regularly gets bathed in superheated exhaust)

The big limiter on operations is time to get them back to port with a recovered booster and then time to get them back on station for the next recovery. Having them run autonomously in and out just slows that process down (F9 flight rate limiter).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/09/2023 05:42 am
https://twitter.com/harry__stranger/status/1689042564408807428

Quote
While it's not as high res as the other images on your site, this NOAA aerial image was captured earlier this year on Feb 21!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 08/10/2023 03:54 am
Quote
While it's not as high res as the other images on your site, this NOAA aerial image was captured earlier this year on Feb 21!

So.. OCISLY never got a thruster upgrade?!?  ???
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 08/10/2023 04:54 pm
Quote
While it's not as high res as the other images on your site, this NOAA aerial image was captured earlier this year on Feb 21!

So.. OCISLY never got a thruster upgrade?!?  ???
IIRC the Pacific oceanic environment seen by the drone ship is milder than what is seen in the Atlantic, which would mean the more powerful thrusters aren't required. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 08/10/2023 11:24 pm
So.. OCISLY never got a thruster upgrade?!?  ???

IIRC the Pacific oceanic environment seen by the drone ship is milder than what is seen in the Atlantic, which would mean the more powerful thrusters aren't required.

Hmmm.. I was hoping part of the rationale for the thruster upgrade was to do with eventually not having to be towed once clear of the port area.

Maybe not.
 

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/10/2023 01:36 pm
https://twitter.com/harry__stranger/status/1722974402763960806

Quote
It seems SpaceX is taking advantage of Transporter-9 being an RTLS mission by doing some work on Of Course I Still Love You.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DanClemmensen on 11/10/2023 04:16 pm
Quote
It seems SpaceX is taking advantage of Transporter-9 being an RTLS mission by doing some work on Of Course I Still Love You.
Possibly the other way around? They needed to work on OCISLY, so they scheduled an RTLS launch?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jstrotha0975 on 11/10/2023 05:49 pm
Speaking of the SpaceX sea fleet, will they need another drone barge or payload fairing recovery ship with increased cadence next year?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: DanClemmensen on 11/10/2023 06:19 pm
Speaking of the SpaceX sea fleet, will they need another drone barge or payload fairing recovery ship with increased cadence next year?
What is the payload penalty (measured in number of Starlink satellites) of RTLS versus ASDS landing? Presumably the F9 mission cost for both is decreasing as cadence increases, so the cost per satellite is decreasing for both. At some point it's cheaper to just use RTLS than it is to acquire another ASDS. Remember that the incremental advantage of the additional ASDS is lower than the advantage of the existing ASDSs. You only use RTLS this way for the missions that exceed the capacity of the ASDS fleet, so the percentage of such missions will be small.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: alugobi on 11/10/2023 06:57 pm
If this Starship launch goes well, then chances they build another ASDS are way not good.  If it doesn't go well, then only a little not good.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 11/12/2023 04:19 pm
If this Starship launch goes well, then chances they build another ASDS are way not good.  If it doesn't go well, then only a little not good.
I think they may build ASDSes that can serve for Starship landings as well.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rsdavis9 on 11/12/2023 05:14 pm
If this Starship launch goes well, then chances they build another ASDS are way not good.  If it doesn't go well, then only a little not good.
I think they may build ASDSes that can serve for Starship landings as well.

SS or SH or both?
SH gives you extra delta-V.
SS gives you flexibilty for landing the upper stage. No fly over of population. Positioned for the orbital pass you want. Etc.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: geekesq on 11/12/2023 05:29 pm
I think they may build ASDSes that can serve for Starship landings as well.

I think catching a SH or SS using a ship-board tower that's rolling with the waves is way way harder than catching a SH or SS using a tower built on land.  Maybe even impractically hard.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 11/12/2023 05:43 pm
I think they may build ASDSes that can serve for Starship landings as well.

I think catching a SH or SS using a ship-board tower that's rolling with the waves is way way harder than catching a SH or SS using a tower built on land.  Maybe even impractically hard.
Enter the activity stabilized tower.

More seriously, if the barge's center of buoyancy is kept deeper than wave action, it'll be comparatively stable, and the rest (multiplied by the tower height!) will need to be taken out by chopstick actuation.

Either way it's a very complex solution. The whole tower catchment scheme kinda argues for a shallow water legged landing structure.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 11/12/2023 05:50 pm
I didn’t say catching, I said landing. I think there will be versions of Starship which have legs. HLS certainly does.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: alugobi on 11/12/2023 06:31 pm
^^^Gotta be this.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CameronD on 11/13/2023 09:56 pm
If this Starship launch goes well, then chances they build another ASDS are way not good.  If it doesn't go well, then only a little not good.
I think they may build ASDSes that can serve for Starship landings as well.

I'm not convinced they would.  Starship/Boosters are truly enormous beasties offering significant vertical windage when landed, meaning that even if you built an ASDS large enough and wide enough to handle the size and weight, the thruster power required to maintain control of the landed stage on the open ocean in anything other than a flat calm may be pushing the limits of current propulsion technology.

Put simply, it'd be an interesting design exercise that I expect would look something like a really fat version of one of Dockwise's semisubmersible heavy-lift ships, but really wouldn't be economical to build in practice - it being cheaper, safer, and easier logistics-wise to cop the payload hit and RTLS.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: geekesq on 11/13/2023 10:24 pm
I didn’t say catching, I said landing. I think there will be versions of Starship which have legs. HLS certainly does.
Landing on the moon, where there are no preexisting facilities and much lower gravity, is a whole different beast than landing on Earth.  I doubt we'll ever see the HLS land on Earth except maybe in testing (and then in a stripped-down lightly-fueled version).  And I doubt we'll ever see a non-tower-catch Earth landing by SS unless a) catching it with a tower doesn't work, or b) someone like the military contracts for a land-anywhere reduced-payload version.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 11/14/2023 03:19 am
 I'd think offshore landing and transportation would be different platforms. Big, semi submersible oil rigs are steady as a rock in rough seas, but you wouldn't want to tow the whole thing back to port after every launch. Repositioning one for different launches wouldn't be too bad.
 They might need a big counterweight or something for craning a booster over the side.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Asteroza on 11/14/2023 03:46 am
I'd think offshore landing and transportation would be different platforms. Big, semi submersible oil rigs are steady as a rock in rough seas, but you wouldn't want to tow the whole thing back to port for every launch. Repositioning one for different launches wouldn't be too bad.
 They might need a big counterweight or something for craning a booster over the side.

Eh, if you had a U shaped body and a chopstick equipped tower, that would center most of the mass and you could lower it onto a waiting barge below and push off relatively quickly.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/14/2023 05:28 am
I'd think offshore landing and transportation would be different platforms. Big, semi submersible oil rigs are steady as a rock in rough seas, but you wouldn't want to tow the whole thing back to port for every launch. Repositioning one for different launches wouldn't be too bad.
 They might need a big counterweight or something for craning a booster over the side.

Eh, if you had a U shaped body and a chopstick equipped tower, that would center most of the mass and you could lower it onto a waiting barge below and push off relatively quickly.
That is going to be a really large catamaran. That is going to have to find dry docks and docking facilities that can accommodated the boat's beam. SpaceX might have to build their own mobile dry docks for rocket catching catamarans.


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: geekesq on 11/17/2023 05:31 pm
I'd think offshore landing and transportation would be different platforms. Big, semi submersible oil rigs are steady as a rock in rough seas, but you wouldn't want to tow the whole thing back to port for every launch. Repositioning one for different launches wouldn't be too bad.
 They might need a big counterweight or something for craning a booster over the side.

Eh, if you had a U shaped body and a chopstick equipped tower, that would center most of the mass and you could lower it onto a waiting barge below and push off relatively quickly.
That is going to be a really large catamaran. That is going to have to find dry docks and docking facilities that can accommodated the boat's beam. SpaceX might have to build their own mobile dry docks for rocket catching catamarans.
It may be cheaper and easier to just find or build an island not too far offshore, run your power and methane pipelines to it, and erect the facilities needed to make it into a starbase that can: land SH and SS, refuel and refurb them, and then launch them again.

Kind of like the Kansai International Airport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansai_International_Airport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansai_International_Airport)) but for spaceships instead of airplanes. Just keep a barge around to ship them back to the factory if they need major rework.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: alugobi on 11/17/2023 06:36 pm
It may be cheaper and easier to just find or build an island not too far offshore,
Ok, find one for us.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: geekesq on 11/18/2023 04:56 am
It may be cheaper and easier to just find or build an island not too far offshore,
Ok, find one for us.
North Malé Atoll, Maldives.  They've built several artificial islands.  Just build one more.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/18/2023 07:19 am
It may be cheaper and easier to just find or build an island not too far offshore,

Seriously. Building and running a spaceport in the middle of nowhere with no infrastructure, maybe on an artificial island. Is cheaper than a large ship?

It will have to be in the middle of nowhere for flight paths that is clear of air and sea traffic plus populated areas.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 11/18/2023 07:20 am
It may be cheaper and easier to just find or build an island not too far offshore,

Seriously. Building and running a spaceport in the middle of nowhere with no infrastructure, maybe on an artificial island. Is cheaper than a large ship?

It will have to be in the middle of nowhere for flight paths that is clear of air and traffic plus populated areas.


Did I read incorrectly, that the next Integrated Flight Test (#3-4) will land in the Indian Ocean?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: KilroySmith on 11/18/2023 02:37 pm

Seriously. Building and running a spaceport in the middle of nowhere with no infrastructure, maybe on an artificial island. Is cheaper than a large ship?

Hmm, is the navy scrapping any aircraft carriers in the near future?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/18/2023 03:44 pm

Seriously. Building and running a spaceport in the middle of nowhere with no infrastructure, maybe on an artificial island. Is cheaper than a large ship?

Hmm, is the navy scrapping any aircraft carriers in the near future?
Retired Aircraft Carriers ain't really that suitable for conversions to something else.

However there are many surplus VLCC (aka supertanker) available for conversion to floating landing platform of some sort.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 11/18/2023 03:53 pm

Seriously. Building and running a spaceport in the middle of nowhere with no infrastructure, maybe on an artificial island. Is cheaper than a large ship?

Hmm, is the navy scrapping any aircraft carriers in the near future?
Retired Aircraft Carriers ain't really that suitable for conversions to something else.

However there are many surplus VLCC (aka supertanker) available for conversion to floating landing platform of some sort.
If it's just for landing, a pure catching tower with no platform rising straight out if the water - that would be something.

Catch, wait for the barge, set it down....

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: realnouns on 12/11/2023 12:49 am
(Please let me know if this belongs somewhere else)

Crosby Skipper departed PC on Dec 10 @ ~7:30am ET (Marine Traffic jumped tracking…)

Crosby Skipper entered Port of Jacksonville on Dec 10 @ 8:18pm ET

[zubenelgenubi: Merged with existing thread.]
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: RedLineTrain on 12/23/2023 03:33 pm
If this Starship launch goes well, then chances they build another ASDS are way not good.  If it doesn't go well, then only a little not good.
I think they may build ASDSes that can serve for Starship landings as well.

They will need to be able to barge Starships as well, at least in the short term.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chinakpradhan on 12/26/2023 09:49 am
Here is the tug tracking map, appears the booster may have fallen just south of the cape on its way back from the landing zone in the Bahamas.  The tug is still out there looking.  "Leave no Booster Behind"

Source:  MarineTraffi (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-80.2/centery:28.1/zoom:10)c

Update screen grabs of the tug's plot.  The landing barge was disconnected for a while to give the tug freedom to move, it's now back in front of the barge headed for Port Canaveral.

The plot of the Marmac 303 is in the second picture
Ocisly 0.75-1 (B1055) kills ASOG 0 kills JRTI 1.25-1.5 kills (B1069,B1058)

 🤬JRTI🤬
/cross post
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 12/26/2023 03:38 pm
Will this incident on JRTI delay landings on this ship until a new/repaired OG is completed?  or is there a spare OG available?

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46338.msg2552835#msg2552835
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 12/26/2023 04:03 pm
Will this incident on JRTI delay landings on this ship until a new/repaired OG is completed?  or is there a spare OG available?

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46338.msg2552835#msg2552835 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46338.msg2552835#msg2552835)


ASOG not JRTI


I asked the same question in the manifest discussion thread.  I am unaware of an extra OG.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 12/26/2023 04:04 pm
Will this incident on JRTI delay landings on this ship until a new/repaired OG is completed?  or is there a spare OG available?

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46338.msg2552835#msg2552835


ASOG not JRTI

ASOG just left to support Starlink group 6-36 : CCSFS SLC-40 : NET 28/29 Dec 2023 this morning (3 hours ago).

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=60024.msg2552814#msg2552814
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Bob Niland on 12/26/2023 04:16 pm
Will this incident on JRTI delay landings on this ship until a new/repaired OG is completed?  or is there a spare OG available?
And will this increase the likelihood of RTLS vs. ASDS missions (where that can be achieved by reducing Starlink cargo)?

The incident is now a possible new data point in the cost column for ASDS, as are any refinements in weather no-go criteria for future ASDS (and delay is itself a cost).

On the other hand, if all the engines are recoverable, just what fraction of the overall value of a 19-flight booster was lost?

This might have been a relatively trivial incident, esp. if unlikely to happen again under the same sea state, due to newer boosters being more robust.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: alugobi on 12/26/2023 04:35 pm
They gambled on the oldest booster with non-self-leveling legs like the newer ones have, launching with a high sea state.  A newer vehicle might have weathered it without incident. 

So, it's not at all clear whether this changes their thinking on using drone ships.  I'm guessing no.



Edit:  sp
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 12/26/2023 04:36 pm
Will this incident on JRTI delay landings on this ship until a new/repaired OG is completed?  or is there a spare OG available?
And will this increase the likelihood of RTLS vs. ASDS missions (where that can be achieved by reducing Starlink cargo)?

The incident is now a possible new data point in the cost column for ASDS, as are any refinements in weather no-go criteria for future ASDS (and delay is itself a cost).

On the other hand, if all the engines are recoverable, just what fraction of the overall value of a 19-flight booster was lost?

This might have been a relatively trivial incident, esp. if unlikely to happen again under the same sea state, due to newer boosters being more robust.

Several Engine bells got deformed.

Picture source: John Kraus  twitter post: twitter.com/johnkrausphotos/status/1739679188670427188
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Guillerz on 12/26/2023 05:50 pm
Is the octograbbler damaged? If so, this drone ship will be out of service for a while.”
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nevyn72 on 12/26/2023 09:18 pm
Will this incident on JRTI delay landings on this ship until a new/repaired OG is completed?  or is there a spare OG available?
And will this increase the likelihood of RTLS vs. ASDS missions (where that can be achieved by reducing Starlink cargo)?

The incident is now a possible new data point in the cost column for ASDS, as are any refinements in weather no-go criteria for future ASDS (and delay is itself a cost).

On the other hand, if all the engines are recoverable, just what fraction of the overall value of a 19-flight booster was lost?

This might have been a relatively trivial incident, esp. if unlikely to happen again under the same sea state, due to newer boosters being more robust.

Well they did also lose the top of the booster with some rather expensive titanium grid fins...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/26/2023 09:45 pm
https://twitter.com/john_winkopp/status/1739739911920500909

Quote
Just Read the Instructions will be heading to drydock, maybe not related to booster 1058. This picture is the front of the ship. 📸 WAI media.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 12/27/2023 02:51 am
https://twitter.com/john_winkopp/status/1739739911920500909

Quote
Just Read the Instructions will be heading to drydock, maybe not related to booster 1058. This picture is the front of the ship. 📸 WAI media.

Yes indeed, with the ever-increasing tempo of landings on both this and the other landing barge, there probably hasn't been time to do some regular and much-needed maintenance like rust removal and painting, let alone pad repair from all the landings.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 12/27/2023 03:31 pm
Will this incident on JRTI delay landings on this ship until a new/repaired OG is completed?  or is there a spare OG available?

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46338.msg2552835#msg2552835


ASOG not JRTI

ASOG just left to support Starlink group 6-36 : CCSFS SLC-40 : NET 28/29 Dec 2023 this morning (3 hours ago).

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=60024.msg2552814#msg2552814

Apologies, my bad.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 12/29/2023 02:34 pm
With the successful offloading of the Booster and damaged Octograbber, JRTI is now leaving for needed repairs.   
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/29/2023 02:35 pm
https://twitter.com/spaceoffshore/status/1740753952453382571

Quote
Departure! JRTI droneship is underway from Port Canaveral, 3 days after delivering the remains of B1058, which tipped over onboard.

The deck isn't clear which means this isn't for a mission. Looks like a spare generator unit and container have been bolted to the deck. My guess is JRTI is heading for some maintenance and/or repair.

nsf.live/spacecoast
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 12/29/2023 02:39 pm
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 12/29/2023 02:41 pm
Holding steady just off the entrance of the Cape Harbor, destination has not been updated.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 12/29/2023 02:49 pm
I also checked on the JRTI manifest and no indication of a destination recorded as of now.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 12/29/2023 10:28 pm
No change in destination for JRTI.  Still loitering east of Canaveral Port.



KURT J CROSBY (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:401047/zoom:12)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: nicp on 12/30/2023 03:29 pm
Will this incident on JRTI delay landings on this ship until a new/repaired OG is completed?  or is there a spare OG available?
And will this increase the likelihood of RTLS vs. ASDS missions (where that can be achieved by reducing Starlink cargo)?

The incident is now a possible new data point in the cost column for ASDS, as are any refinements in weather no-go criteria for future ASDS (and delay is itself a cost).

On the other hand, if all the engines are recoverable, just what fraction of the overall value of a 19-flight booster was lost?

This might have been a relatively trivial incident, esp. if unlikely to happen again under the same sea state, due to newer boosters being more robust.

Well they did also lose the top of the booster with some rather expensive titanium grid fins...
A little off topic - could they make some steel ones for missions where weight isn't an issue?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/31/2023 06:16 pm
https://twitter.com/spaceoffshore/status/1741482724399931818

Quote
JRTI droneship has arrived at a shipyard in Charleston.

New year, new anti-rust paint 🤣😅
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AmigaClone on 01/01/2024 07:02 am
https://twitter.com/spaceoffshore/status/1741482724399931818

Quote
JRTI droneship has arrived at a shipyard in Charleston.

New year, new anti-rust paint 🤣😅

My guess is that a bit more work will be done than just putting on a new coat of paint...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 01/01/2024 12:45 pm
https://twitter.com/harry__stranger/status/1741799007230497027

Quote
SpaceX's Just Read The Instructions barge docked in Charleston, South Carolina.

Image taken 2023-12-31 15:12:35 UTC.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 01/16/2024 09:27 pm
Any news of JRTI returning to service?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 01/16/2024 11:00 pm
Any news of JRTI returning to service?

realnouns,
I know you keeping track of SpaceX vessels on both coasts for us, BTW thank you for doing so.  Are you monitoring JRTI or could you keep an eye on the movement of JRTI when it leaves Charleston?  zubenelgenubi and others are interested.

Best
Tony
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Brigantine on 01/16/2024 11:19 pm
Are you monitoring JRTI or could you keep an eye on the movement of JRTI when it leaves Charleston?  zubenelgenubi and others are interested.

It's called Marmac 303 (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:8/mmsi:368219920/shipid:6888044), have a look. Last updated 1 hour 10 minutes ago.

Bob (offshore supply ship) is about 1 km down-river.
Marmac 302 (ASOG) is inbound from the Bahamas (last updated 15 hours ago)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: crandles57 on 01/18/2024 01:39 pm
JRTI still in Charleston. Journey Port Canaveral to Charleston took less than 2 days.

ASOG at Port Canaveral. Seems like there could be time for a Starlink launch 23rd-~25th Jan and still have pad ready for NG20 on 29th Jan but Launch Photography appears to be indicating no Starlink launches until after Feb 10th. So is ASOG also going for maintenance?

edit: no see subsequent posts pad 40 getting maintenance but ASOG presumably doing 6-38 on 25/26th
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 01/18/2024 07:10 pm
https://twitter.com/SpaceOffshore/status/1748036703909003475
Quote
SpaceX support ship Doug is en-route to Charleston, where it will seemingly join twin ship Bob and JRTI at a shipyard.

Looks like there is quite a sizeable gap in offshore recovery requirements for a few weeks now that might allow some heavy work to be done across SpaceX's fleet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 01/18/2024 07:16 pm
Cross-post:
Quote
As we move to a higher launch rate, we are adopting more of a factory model where the equipment is always running except for planned and unplanned maintenance. In this case,  JRTI is going through a planned dry dock while pad 40 also undergoes a planned maintenance period. The bonus is sneaking in some work on Bob/Doug given the gap in east coast launches!

https://twitter.com/TurkeyBeaver/status/1748063270169382944
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Brigantine on 01/22/2024 06:45 am
Doug arrived in Charleston at "2024-01-19 07:47 LT (UTC -5)" and now in the same spot Bob had been, 1km downriver of JRTI - presumably for the same maintenance?

Bob left port at "2024-01-21 13:12 LT (UTC -5)" and heading to the Cape

JRTI still sitting in the same spot

If this is all running to a master plan, then Doug and JRTI both return to service mid-Feb for Starlink 6-40 or so?
After Starlink 6-38 (ASOG landing?) there are 3 back to back RTLS, which at least is consistent.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 01/27/2024 06:36 am
https://twitter.com/SpaceOffshore/status/1751048494771515474
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Brigantine on 01/29/2024 11:29 pm
It was mentioned in the manifest discussion thread about OCISLY's turnaround record with Starlink 7-12.

This was not some photo-finish, it smashed the previous record by more than 2 whole days, and is even faster than the ground landing zones!
(though TBF that reflects how the ground landing zones are used, not their capability)

5 hours before that, ASOG also just hit a 6 month median turnaround time of 10 days exactly

Once JRTI finishes maintenance, I think we can expect them all to reliably turn around in under 10 days on average



Into the weeds:

Some kind stranger (I forget which forum member) maintains this database (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WwD3CzpKR6vNgYS3QlxoOK9WLi81fof9zRiXzGCnbwo) of booster and launchpad turnarounds. I piggyback off that and add in landing locations.

The new record for turnaround of any landing location is now:
OCISLY 5d-05h-22m set on 2024-01-29 with Starlink 7-12, B1075.9

The previous record was:
LZ-1  5d-18h-06m set on 2023-01-15 with USSF-67, B1065.2

The previous record for a drone ship was:
JRTI 7d-18h-50m set on 2023-06-12 with Starlink 5-11, B1073.9

The shortest previous turnaround by OCISLY, or any west coast drone ship:
OCISLY 8d-00h-37m on 2023-10-29 with Starlink 7-5, B1075.7


OCISLY isn't normally even close to competing for multiple turnarounds in a short time, but now it snatched the records for 2 and 3 successive turnarounds:

→ 2 turnarounds in 14.87 days, under 20 days for the first time for OCISLY (prev 20 days and 4 mins in 2021), but the 14th time for any drone ship (first in Aug 2022)
Previous record:
JRTI 16.11 days on 2023-06-12 with Starlink 5-11, B1073.9

- 3 turnarounds in 26.09 days, under 30 days for the first time for the west coast (prev 33.68), but the 10th time for any drone ship (first in June 2023)
Previous record:
JRTI 27.46 days on 2023-06-23 with Starlink 5-11, B1069.8

A look at medians of the last 30 turnarounds: (FWIW very similar to the means)
- JRTI: 11d-21h-32m - unchanged since a new record on Nov 28
- ASOG: 12d-05h-06m - unchanged since a new record on Jan 15
- OCISLY: 14d-03h-14m - A new record since Jan 29

For reference, a year ago JRTI and OCISLY were about 18 days. ASOG had just over 15 days (median of all 25 turnarounds)

ASOG has had a good run especially since August - 17 turnarounds in 185 days
Median of just the last 17 turnarounds: 10 days exactly. (mean: 10d-21h-00m)
JRTI was almost that good back before the mid-December weather delays and now maintenance.
(median 10d-01h-43m, mean 10d-18h-42m)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Brigantine on 01/30/2024 12:32 am
It's called Marmac 303 (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:8/mmsi:368219920/shipid:6888044), have a look

JRTI is now out of the dry dock, and on "Pier G"

Well, at least I presume that place is a dry dock. Anyway, it moved.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Brigantine on 02/03/2024 08:44 am
Doug arrived in Charleston
<snip>
JRTI still sitting in the same spot

If this is all running to a master plan, then Doug and JRTI both return to service mid-Feb for Starlink 6-40 or so?
After Starlink 6-38 (ASOG landing?) there are 3 back to back RTLS, which at least is consistent.

Nope. Doug and JRTI are heading out to sea again already
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/03/2024 05:45 pm
https://twitter.com/spaceoffshore/status/1753851772781625789

Quote
Just Read the Instructions droneship has wrapped a month-long visit to a shipyard and is heading home to Florida. Doug is towing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/05/2024 06:25 pm
https://twitter.com/spaceoffshore/status/1754570022729474255

Quote
Just Read the Instructions droneship is back home in Florida and sporting a fresh coat of black paint all over. So much better than years of hard-earned battle scars from salt water.😍

The other visual change I've spotted includes the removal of the 'candy cane'  exhausts from each thruster unit.

JRTI left for the shipyard with a generator set and a container on the landing deck, which I assume have been installed deep into surrounding GSE at the bow and stern.

nsf.live/spacecoast

Quote
The 'candy cane' exhausts (at least this is what I've always assumed they were...) for anyone who thinks that I've got crazy.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: meekGee on 02/05/2024 06:47 pm
https://twitter.com/spaceoffshore/status/1754570022729474255

Quote
Just Read the Instructions droneship is back home in Florida and sporting a fresh coat of black paint all over. So much better than years of hard-earned battle scars from salt water.

The other visual change I've spotted includes the removal of the 'candy cane'  exhausts from each thruster unit.

JRTI left for the shipyard with a generator set and a container on the landing deck, which I assume have been installed deep into surrounding GSE at the bow and stern.

nsf.live/spacecoast

Quote
The 'candy cane' exhausts (at least this is what I've always assumed they were...) for anyone who thinks that I've got crazy.
Maybe they're intakes (engines or ventilation)?  And the candy cane is a splash guard?  Don't know for sure just guessing.

You're talking about the tubes Olive Oyle always screamed from, right?

EDIT: oh never mind, on my phone  didn't see the picture, her head would not fit in those.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: realnouns on 02/06/2024 04:18 am
Doug + JRTI returned to PC on Feb 5 @ 1:03pm ET
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 02/16/2024 10:55 pm
https://twitter.com/SpaceOffshore/status/1758639382234583426

Doug has big aspirations 😅
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 02/19/2024 08:34 pm
This post contains a video.

https://twitter.com/SpaceOffshore/status/1759691780134469677

Quote
SpaceX's Doug recovery ship appears to be testing a new type of fairing cradle today that I've not seen before. 🎥 http://nsf.live/spacecoast

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 02/20/2024 07:28 pm
https://twitter.com/SpaceOffshore/status/1760036613520773251

Quote
Just Read the Instructions droneship had a really nice new paint job following its recent trip to the shipyard

HAD.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 02/20/2024 07:29 pm
https://twitter.com/SpacesFuture/status/1760037481603555801

Quote
Telkomsat Merah Putih 2 X Post  🛰️🦅🍀

Cov ¹²³
Launch ⁴
🌗.10🌓.11
Landing 275 ⁵
00:27:59 SES2
00:29:03 SECO2
00:33:34 Deploy ⁶