Author Topic: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)  (Read 165068 times)

Offline Downix

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #40 on: 01/02/2011 05:13 pm »
If I recall correctly, Soyuz-2.3 was cancelled long ago. That said, if Soyuz-1 is successful then there could be an argument to resurrecting the programme.
That dovetails with what I've heard that they are waiting to see if Soyuz-1 is a success, and if it is then they will look at Soyuz 2-3.
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Offline Nickolai

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #41 on: 01/03/2011 01:29 am »
If I recall correctly, Soyuz-2.3 was cancelled long ago. That said, if Soyuz-1 is successful then there could be an argument to resurrecting the programme.
That dovetails with what I've heard that they are waiting to see if Soyuz-1 is a success, and if it is then they will look at Soyuz 2-3.

According Anatoly Zak's website (http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz2_3_lv.html), Soyuz 2-3 payload capacity will be less than 13 tons to 200km, and that's from Korou. It becomes closer to 11 tons when launched from Baikonur or Plesetsk.

Given that capacity, what payloads would it launch?

Offline Downix

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #42 on: 01/03/2011 01:34 am »
If I recall correctly, Soyuz-2.3 was cancelled long ago. That said, if Soyuz-1 is successful then there could be an argument to resurrecting the programme.
That dovetails with what I've heard that they are waiting to see if Soyuz-1 is a success, and if it is then they will look at Soyuz 2-3.

According Anatoly Zak's website (http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz2_3_lv.html), Soyuz 2-3 payload capacity will be less than 13 tons to 200km, and that's from Korou. It becomes closer to 11 tons when launched from Baikonur or Plesetsk.

Given that capacity, what payloads would it launch?
That would enable both the Soyuz manned capsule and Progress unmanned.  Otherwise, however, it would fit a similar payload point as Falcon 9, Taurus II and Delta II.
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Offline zaitcev

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #43 on: 01/03/2011 02:10 am »
According Anatoly Zak's website (http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz2_3_lv.html), Soyuz 2-3 payload capacity will be less than 13 tons to 200km, and that's from Korou. It becomes closer to 11 tons when launched from Baikonur or Plesetsk.

Given that capacity, what payloads would it launch?

Mostly it's going to keep up with the growth in satellite mass in the same class that Soyuz-ST currently launches to GTO. Lavochkin is carrying out enhancements to Fregat that could be useful on Soyuz-2-3 as well.

Crewed transport on Soyuz-2-3 is so far down horizon, I am not even going to consider it. It is just as likely that PTK will enter service before it, thus rendering the question moot. Not sure if TsSKB or RKKE asked Roskosmos to move crewed launch to Soyuz-2, and Roskosmos refused -- in part because Soyuz-FG is not insignificantly cheaper.

Note that Mr. Zak did not keep up with the news on the Soyuz-2-1V project. He still calls it "Soyuz-1" and lists NK-33-1 as propulsion, which was abandoned back in 2008.

P.S. Note that, according to KBOM, the maximum carrying capacity of R-7 launch pad is about 400 tonnes. The improvements in Isp that NK-33 brings help a bit but basically the carrier is at its capacity for a design in Soyuz-3 class (unless they replace Blok I with a hydrogen stage). There is no growth head. This may be different for Kourou pad though.
« Last Edit: 01/03/2011 02:15 am by zaitcev »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #44 on: 01/03/2011 02:35 am »
Not sure if TsSKB or RKKE asked Roskosmos to move crewed launch to Soyuz-2, and Roskosmos refused -- in part because Soyuz-FG is not insignificantly cheaper.

The larger issue is that Soyuz cannot really take advantage of the additional capacity offered by Soyuz-2 without a major redesign.

Offline zaitcev

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #45 on: 02/27/2011 06:46 pm »
About GLONASS, according to insiders posting to NK forums (Mr. Morin), the Chief Designer Mr. Kirillin plans to put upper stage Volga on the 1v. This explains how he plans to launch GLONASS, I think, although I did not look closely at Volga.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #46 on: 02/27/2011 06:57 pm »
About GLONASS, according to insiders posting to NK forums (Mr. Morin), the Chief Designer Mr. Kirillin plans to put upper stage Volga on the 1v. This explains how he plans to launch GLONASS, I think, although I did not look closely at Volga.

I presume this is the 750 kg Glonass K payload. Since Soyuz-2 can launch 2 of them at a time, it is reasonable to assume that Soyuz-1 can launch one at a time, with the appropriate upper stage.

Offline Salo

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #47 on: 02/27/2011 09:20 pm »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #48 on: 02/27/2011 09:36 pm »
Its basically an Ikar stage, with about half the dry mass.  Ikar is/was basically a copy of a Soyuz PAO.  So, if you ever need a half sized Soyuz PAO, there you go.


Offline Salo

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #49 on: 02/27/2011 10:04 pm »
No, it is not. Ikar used 17D61 "Kometa"("Yantar-1KFT") KDU.   

Offline baldusi

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #50 on: 03/01/2011 11:53 am »
Note that Mr. Zak did not keep up with the news on the Soyuz-2-1V project. He still calls it "Soyuz-1" and lists NK-33-1 as propulsion, which was abandoned back in 2008.
I see the NK-33-1 still listed in Samara site. What will they use instead? Regrettably I don't speak russian and thus can't keep up with the latest news.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #51 on: 03/01/2011 03:29 pm »
Note that Mr. Zak did not keep up with the news on the Soyuz-2-1V project. He still calls it "Soyuz-1" and lists NK-33-1 as propulsion, which was abandoned back in 2008.
I see the NK-33-1 still listed in Samara site. What will they use instead? Regrettably I don't speak russian and thus can't keep up with the latest news.

A standard NK-33, without the nozzle extension.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #52 on: 03/01/2011 03:31 pm »
No, it is not. Ikar used 17D61 "Kometa"("Yantar-1KFT") KDU.   

What engine will Volga use? The Volga charts describe an engine with similar characteristics as the Ikar engine.

 ???

Offline Salo

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #53 on: 03/01/2011 06:21 pm »
Its basically an Ikar stage, with about half the dry mass.  Ikar is/was basically a copy of a Soyuz PAO.  So, if you ever need a half sized Soyuz PAO, there you go.
Soyuz-TMA engine (S5.80) has а specific impulse 302 s.
Ikar/Volga engine has а specific impulse 307 s.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #54 on: 03/01/2011 06:30 pm »
Its basically an Ikar stage, with about half the dry mass.  Ikar is/was basically a copy of a Soyuz PAO.  So, if you ever need a half sized Soyuz PAO, there you go.
Soyuz-TMA engine (S5.80) has а specific impulse 302 s.
Ikar/Volga engine has а specific impulse 307 s.

First off, it appears from your posts that Volga shares the same engine with Ikar, which is good to know.

Secondly, my suggestion is that Ikar is a copy of the Soyuz PAO from a functional perspective, it is not a duplicate.  It has about the same mass, the same propellant load, about the same engine, about the same size, can be fuelled using the same facilities as the Soyuz PAO, etc.

What is interesting is that Volga duplicates Ikar functionality at half the dry mass of Ikar, which has implications for Soyuz.


Offline zaitcev

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #55 on: 03/04/2011 10:58 pm »
I don't know how you can compare them like that. For one thing the mission duration is drastically different, which is why Soyuz PAO carries solar arrays and radiators.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #56 on: 03/05/2011 12:54 am »
I don't know how you can compare them like that. For one thing the mission duration is drastically different, which is why Soyuz PAO carries solar arrays and radiators.

You are correct, Volga is more of a replacement for Ikar than the Soyuz PAO.  However, even Ikar is modified for long duration missions, so I would imagine that the same would be true for Volga.

« Last Edit: 03/05/2011 12:57 am by Danderman »

Offline Salo

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #57 on: 03/05/2011 08:25 am »
Secondly, my suggestion is that Ikar is a copy of the Soyuz PAO from a functional perspective, it is not a duplicate.  It has about the same mass, the same propellant load, about the same engine, about the same size, can be fuelled using the same facilities as the Soyuz PAO, etc.
It has a different mass, engines, shape and size.

Offline Salo

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #58 on: 03/05/2011 08:31 am »
Volga is Ikar without pressurised volume.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-2-1v Launcher (formerly Soyuz-1)
« Reply #59 on: 03/05/2011 02:21 pm »
Secondly, my suggestion is that Ikar is a copy of the Soyuz PAO from a functional perspective, it is not a duplicate.  It has about the same mass, the same propellant load, about the same engine, about the same size, can be fuelled using the same facilities as the Soyuz PAO, etc.
It has a different mass, engines, shape and size.

Again, Ikar is functionally similar to the Soyuz PAO - and they have a very high degree of commonality at the subsystem level. We have see that Ikar can be fitted with solar panels and a thermal conditioning system for very long mission durations (in its Yantar variant).

I suspect that Ikar/Yantar were developed by Samara after their efforts to develop a Soyuz derivative were cancelled, but based on the experience of engineering those vehicles (such as Soyuz 7K-VI).

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