Author Topic: Russian nuclear propulsion  (Read 59126 times)

Offline RON_P

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #40 on: 09/15/2020 03:11 pm »
Posted on the NK forum (this time without the clown Konanykhin )

Offline RON_P

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #41 on: 09/16/2020 10:00 pm »
https://tass.com/science/1201289

So a JIMO like mission for the first flight in 2030 ( or they are just bluffing ) ?
« Last Edit: 09/16/2020 10:01 pm by RON_P »

Online edzieba

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #42 on: 09/17/2020 02:02 pm »
Don't get me wrong, it would be incredible if they can actually produce and launch it, but what would you even do with 1MWe on an outer planets probe?

Offline RON_P

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #43 on: 09/17/2020 03:05 pm »
Don't get me wrong, it would be incredible if they can actually produce and launch it, but what would you even do with 1MWe on an outer planets probe?

The power is mainly for the electric propulsion .
Probably no more than few 10's of KWe are available for the science payload and communication (which is still a LOT ) .
The proposed NUKLON is basically JIMO on steroids .

Offline RonM

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #44 on: 09/17/2020 03:16 pm »
Don't get me wrong, it would be incredible if they can actually produce and launch it, but what would you even do with 1MWe on an outer planets probe?

Use a "real" radar system like the surface-search radars you see on warships. Those are in the hundreds of kW range. Got to be interesting applications for that such as finding smaller moons, characterizing ring particles, etc.

The power is mainly for the electric propulsion .
Probably no more than few 10's of KWe are available for the science payload and communication (which is still a LOT ) .
The proposed NUKLON is basically JIMO on steroids .

Once the probe is in orbit that frees up a lot of power.

Offline RON_P

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #45 on: 09/17/2020 07:00 pm »
Don't get me wrong, it would be incredible if they can actually produce and launch it, but what would you even do with 1MWe on an outer planets probe?

Use a "real" radar system like the surface-search radars you see on warships. Those are in the hundreds of kW range. Got to be interesting applications for that such as finding smaller moons, characterizing ring particles, etc.

The power is mainly for the electric propulsion .
Probably no more than few 10's of KWe are available for the science payload and communication (which is still a LOT ) .
The proposed NUKLON is basically JIMO on steroids .

Once the probe is in orbit that frees up a lot of power.

As i said JIMO on steroids  :) ( JIMO 200-250 KWe vs NUKLON 1 MWe) .

Here are two recent NASA  studies on NEP systems (and space nuclear power/propulsion as a whole) .
http://fiso.spiritastro.net/telecon/Mason_8-19-20/
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/calomino_nuclear_v5.pdf

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #46 on: 09/17/2020 07:53 pm »
TEM:
Russia reveals a formidable nuclear-powered space tug:

PERMALINK: http://russianspaceweb.com/tem.html
« Last Edit: 09/17/2020 08:00 pm by russianhalo117 »

Offline Sciencefan

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #47 on: 09/17/2020 09:58 pm »
As i said JIMO on steroids  :) ( JIMO 200-250 KWe vs NUKLON 1 MWe) .

They can't use more than 200 KW with only four ion thrusters.

Offline tyrred

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #48 on: 09/18/2020 10:36 am »
A space tug implies it would push something. This looks like it would have to push something with the reactor end, as the ion thrusters are at the opposite end. Weird.

Offline Vacuum tube

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #49 on: 09/18/2020 12:41 pm »

They can't use more than 200 KW with only four ion thrusters.

but they can?


Offline Sciencefan

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #50 on: 09/18/2020 07:54 pm »
but they can

That makes sense. But still too crazy for something real.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #51 on: 09/18/2020 09:31 pm »
A space tug implies it would push something. This looks like it would have to push something with the reactor end, as the ion thrusters are at the opposite end. Weird.
The multi-axis gimballed Ion engines are used for orbit circularization burns, station keeping and fine thrust corrections and the Nuclear engine is for major burns and manuvers.

Offline Vacuum tube

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #52 on: 12/15/2020 08:44 pm »
about Russian space reactors:


Dragunov from 4:40:30
slides from 4:45:30

or pics from Shin on NK forum
https://forum.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/index.php?msg=2090617
 
P.S. Nuclear Rocket Engine, 50 kW electrical and 5-70 kN thrust for MEK, hmm that new

also OKR Nuklon papers finally arive:
two launch TEM + MPN
for Nuclon TEM  480 +/-20 kW electric
35t TEM + 20t block MPN (~10t fuel for "electric rocket engine" + 5500 kg science payload (incl. radar) + etc)
4800 h to Moon orbit from radiation safe 900 km i=51,7° orbit
TEM can give 450 kW to payload
Moon-Venus-Jupiter moons, etc.
https://zakupki.gov.ru/44fz/filestore/public/1.0/download/rgk2/file.html?uid=B61EEF97EAD58D2AE05324548D0A8A18

 10t fuel on MPN + ? amount on TEM, interesting how much dV
« Last Edit: 12/15/2020 09:06 pm by Vacuum tube »

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #53 on: 04/27/2021 08:55 pm »
At a meeting of the Russian Academy of Sciences on April 21, Anatoliy Koroteyev, the director of the Keldysh Research Center, presented plans for a downsized version of the TEM nuclear reactor that can be launched by an Angara-A5 class launch vehicle in a relatively short period of time. This would be achieved by using a simplified heat dissipation system that “does not require the deployment of large structures”. Koroteyev showed slides of the newly proposed vehicle in its launch configuration (attachment 1) and orbital configuration (attachment 2).  The vehicle would have a capacity of 200 kW.

The biggest surprise were the mission objectives that Koroteyev announced for the vehicle:

1) to detect small-sized objects flying at low altitudes with the help of high-power radar systems. Koroteyev said such a system would be very important for “flight support”, but also for what he euphemistically described as “the detection of emergency situations involving undesirable flying objects”.  One slide (which was visible only a split second) showed the vehicle as the space-based component of an air defense system (see attachment 3).  Another slide showed the coverage area of a 50 kW system (about half of Russia’s territory) and a 200 kW system (the entire country) (attachment 4).

2) to ensure more efficient transportation “in near and distant space”, including the placement of heavy payloads into geostationary orbit at less cost than a heavy-lift launch vehicle. Koroteyev showed a slide comparing the launch mass of an HLLV with a cryogenic upper stage and an Angara-A5 with a TEM reactor and their payload capacity to low Earth orbit and geostationary orbit (attachment 5).

These goals have little in common with those announced last year for the Nuklon project, which was officially assigned by Roscosmos to KB Arsenal on December 20, 2020.  That contract called for producing a so-called “pre-draft design” for a 500 kW nuclear-powered vehicle that could reach lunar orbit using a dual-launch scheme, probably no sooner than the early 2030s.

The question is of those plans have now been changed or if the plans outlined by Koroteyev are no more than an alternative proposal by the Keldysh Center. With the assignment of the Nuklon project to KB Arsenal last December, the Keldysh Center seems to have been forced to relinquish its role as prime contractor for TEM, which it had fulfilled since the project’s start in 2010. It had been given new marching orders for the project in a Roscosmos contract awarded in June 2016. A considerable amount of work was done under that contract, but it was annulled in April 2019, the official reason being that ground-based infrastructure needed by the Keldysh Center to test hardware was not expected to become available anytime soon.     

KB Arsenal had already acted as a subcontractor to the Keldysh Center under the 2016 contract, but gradually moved to the foreground in the following years. In late 2017, it was assigned to a research project called Yadro (“Core”) that was described as a precursor to Nuklon, and then in December last year also got the Nuklon contract.

It should be noted that the specifications outlined by Roscosmos for Yadro in 2017 did not include any lunar or interplanetary objectives either. The tender documentation gave the following objectives: Earth remote sensing, electronic warfare, directed energy transfer using lasers, communications and interorbital transportation of cargo. However, none of these goals were included in the tender documentation for Nuklon, which focused on the lunar goal. Possibly, the Keldysh Center is now trying to regain control of the project by proposing a vehicle that could be built within a relatively short period of time and that, unlike the lunar TEM, could also enjoy considerable support from the Ministry of Defense thanks to its (at least partially) military objectives. However, that is just one possible interpretation of these latest developments.

KB Arsenal is simultaneously also working on another nuclear-powered spacecraft called Ekipazh (also designated 14F350). Unlike Nuklon (a Roscosmos project), this vehicle was ordered by the Ministry of Defense. This project began in August 2014, but its current status is unknown. To the best of my knowledge, the latest openly available official documentation related to the project appeared online early last year. With the Russians now clearly keeping a much closer eye on the release of sensitive information than they used to, it will be difficult to find out much more about it until it reaches orbit (if it ever does).

Koroteyev’s presentation is available on YouTube (see 4h50m-5h20m)



Offline Darkseraph

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #54 on: 04/29/2021 09:43 pm »
Hopefully these different plans for nuclear space propulsion go somewhere. Although they appear to be aimed at military uses right now, there is countless other ways to exploit capabilities like this. Russia's future contribution to space exploration and commerce need not be playing catch up with developments in China and the U.S but in offering technology with a Unique Value Proposition.

Nuclear power in space is something Russia has unique experience with and is not a technology a purely commercial entity is going to touch, but that a government could easily underwrite. There are also significant logistical challenges to Russia building larger rockets. For this reason, Yenisei is a giant kludge of other rockets stuck together just to match the capabilities of SLS and Long March 9. Developments in nuclear power and propulsion could enable Russia to achieve far more with smaller, more frequently launched rockets.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." R.P.Feynman

Offline RON_P

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #55 on: 04/30/2021 12:16 am »
Wait this is new so Nuklon was downsized from 1 MWe to 500 KWe ?

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #56 on: 04/30/2021 01:09 pm »
Wait this is new so Nuklon was downsized from 1 MWe to 500 KWe ?

Yes. There was talk of that well before Nuklon officially started in December last year.

Offline asmi

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #57 on: 05/03/2021 01:32 pm »
I heard that first prototype will be 200 KWe. I also heard that metal is already being bent for it as we speak.

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #58 on: 05/03/2021 03:47 pm »
I heard that first prototype will be 200 KWe. I also heard that metal is already being bent for it as we speak.

I presume the 200 kW version you're referring to is the one recently proposed by the Keldysh Center and discussed here in Reply 53. The claim that metal is being cut is probably based on the pictures that were leaked on the web last September. These showed elements of TEM under construction at KB Arsenal (see attachments 1-4). The question is if this is flight hardware or not. Some were convinced it was, others were just as convinced it wasn't.

I'm not sure if in the course of that discussion many people bothered to look at the official documentation on TEM that's available on Russia's government procurement website. My understanding is that all the hardware present at Arsenal at that time had been produced on the basis of a government contract signed between Roscosmos and the Keldysh Center on November 18, 2016. KB Arsenal acted as a subcontractor to the Keldysh Center under that contract.

If I interpret the documentation correctly (not a fact!), the 2016 contract did not call for manufacturing flight hardware, only mock-ups and elements of what was called a "working ground-based prototype". A document published in March 2020 (just months before the pictures were released) contains a list of hardware produced by Arsenal by that time under one of the points of the contract (see attachments 5 and 6). All you see there is the Russian word "maket", which means mock-up. KB Arsenal may also have been involved in other points of the contract, but most of these were related to testing of the ion engines, which is the responsibility of the Keldysh Center, not KB Arsenal. Therefore, based on the documentation, I would be inclined to think that what we're seeing in those pictures is not flight hardware, but I may well have overlooked something.   

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Russian nuclear propulsion
« Reply #59 on: 05/03/2021 04:25 pm »
My understanding is that all the hardware present at Arsenal at that time had been produced on the basis of a government contract signed between Roscosmos and the Keldysh Center on November 18, 2016. KB Arsenal acted as a subcontractor to the Keldysh Center under that contract.

Correction: the contract between Roscosmos and the Keldysh Center was signed on June 29, 2016. Subsequently, the Keldysh Center subcontracted work to KB Arsenal on November 18, 2016 under the name "TEM-Arsenal".

Tags: zevs nuclear power tug 
 

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