The thickness of glass needed to "float" a dome would be on the order of a meter thick
There's breathable materials significantly denser than NitrOx
Since it looks like the thread in the mars forum isnt returning...The biggest problem with domes is that human-habitable pressure is so much higher than mars surface pressure, that "domes" cannot rely on surface anchors and instead are effectively partially buried pressure spheres. The thickness of glass needed to "float" a dome would be on the order of a meter thick- and issac newton help you if a dome that heavy ever loses pressure.But what if we could play with atmospheric scale height inside the dome?There's breathable materials significantly denser than NitrOx, and the hellas basin is pretty deep, which also means that there's significant walls on all sides. Throw a zero-pressure-difference celophane barrier over the basin to prevent martian winds from dispercing our efforts, and fill the basin with those denser breathable mixtures, and how close to the armstrong limit can you reach?
Quote from: rakaydos on 06/25/2022 06:20 pmSince it looks like the thread in the mars forum isnt returning...The biggest problem with domes is that human-habitable pressure is so much higher than mars surface pressure, that "domes" cannot rely on surface anchors and instead are effectively partially buried pressure spheres. The thickness of glass needed to "float" a dome would be on the order of a meter thick- and issac newton help you if a dome that heavy ever loses pressure.But what if we could play with atmospheric scale height inside the dome?There's breathable materials significantly denser than NitrOx, and the hellas basin is pretty deep, which also means that there's significant walls on all sides. Throw a zero-pressure-difference celophane barrier over the basin to prevent martian winds from dispercing our efforts, and fill the basin with those denser breathable mixtures, and how close to the armstrong limit can you reach?I don't think denser mixes really gain you anything. You care about ppO2, and the highest ppO2 you can get with the lowest absolute gas pressure is a pure O2 atmosphere - because at the same pressure, any diluent gasses added are just displacing some O2 (and thus reducing ppO2) or adding to total pressure (because you're shoving extra molecules into the same volume). For a 0.17 Bar ppO2 (nearly hypoxic but survivable) that's a density of 0.24g/l for a pure O2 environment. Mars' atmospheric density is 0.02g/l. That means regardless of the diluent added, you're going to need to be well above atmospheric pressure (~10x) to sustain life.
By changing the composition in this region to have a lower scale height, the top of this pillar of air can remain mars pressure while the bottom of the pillar of air can be... higher than it is currently. High enough to be useful? I dont know enough to say.
Quote from: edzieba on 06/28/2022 07:44 amQuote from: rakaydos on 06/25/2022 06:20 pmSince it looks like the thread in the mars forum isnt returning...The biggest problem with domes is that human-habitable pressure is so much higher than mars surface pressure, that "domes" cannot rely on surface anchors and instead are effectively partially buried pressure spheres. The thickness of glass needed to "float" a dome would be on the order of a meter thick- and issac newton help you if a dome that heavy ever loses pressure.But what if we could play with atmospheric scale height inside the dome?There's breathable materials significantly denser than NitrOx, and the hellas basin is pretty deep, which also means that there's significant walls on all sides. Throw a zero-pressure-difference celophane barrier over the basin to prevent martian winds from dispercing our efforts, and fill the basin with those denser breathable mixtures, and how close to the armstrong limit can you reach?I don't think denser mixes really gain you anything. You care about ppO2, and the highest ppO2 you can get with the lowest absolute gas pressure is a pure O2 atmosphere - because at the same pressure, any diluent gasses added are just displacing some O2 (and thus reducing ppO2) or adding to total pressure (because you're shoving extra molecules into the same volume). For a 0.17 Bar ppO2 (nearly hypoxic but survivable) that's a density of 0.24g/l for a pure O2 environment. Mars' atmospheric density is 0.02g/l. That means regardless of the diluent added, you're going to need to be well above atmospheric pressure (~10x) to sustain life.It's not about the narrow breathable volume at the bottom of the basin. Its's about the composition of the uninhabitable-but-isolated bondary layer between the bottom on the basin and the rim of the basin. By changing the composition in this region to have a lower scale height, the top of this pillar of air can remain mars pressure while the bottom of the pillar of air can be... higher than it is currently. High enough to be useful? I dont know enough to say.
Quote from: rakaydos on 07/01/2022 02:29 pmQuote from: edzieba on 06/28/2022 07:44 amQuote from: rakaydos on 06/25/2022 06:20 pmSince it looks like the thread in the mars forum isnt returning...The biggest problem with domes is that human-habitable pressure is so much higher than mars surface pressure, that "domes" cannot rely on surface anchors and instead are effectively partially buried pressure spheres. The thickness of glass needed to "float" a dome would be on the order of a meter thick- and issac newton help you if a dome that heavy ever loses pressure.But what if we could play with atmospheric scale height inside the dome?There's breathable materials significantly denser than NitrOx, and the hellas basin is pretty deep, which also means that there's significant walls on all sides. Throw a zero-pressure-difference celophane barrier over the basin to prevent martian winds from dispercing our efforts, and fill the basin with those denser breathable mixtures, and how close to the armstrong limit can you reach?I don't think denser mixes really gain you anything. You care about ppO2, and the highest ppO2 you can get with the lowest absolute gas pressure is a pure O2 atmosphere - because at the same pressure, any diluent gasses added are just displacing some O2 (and thus reducing ppO2) or adding to total pressure (because you're shoving extra molecules into the same volume). For a 0.17 Bar ppO2 (nearly hypoxic but survivable) that's a density of 0.24g/l for a pure O2 environment. Mars' atmospheric density is 0.02g/l. That means regardless of the diluent added, you're going to need to be well above atmospheric pressure (~10x) to sustain life.It's not about the narrow breathable volume at the bottom of the basin. Its's about the composition of the uninhabitable-but-isolated bondary layer between the bottom on the basin and the rim of the basin. By changing the composition in this region to have a lower scale height, the top of this pillar of air can remain mars pressure while the bottom of the pillar of air can be... higher than it is currently. High enough to be useful? I dont know enough to say.Makes me think of the Shell World discussions a while ago: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=49788.0I'm sure there's a space for an intermediate application where you can have a massive air dam which is inward leaning, partly floating on the enclosed air, extending up in altitude to a hundred kilometres or so. At this scale, air behaves like weather systems, not necessarily a tyre filled with gas. The dam has a double wall, filled with SF6.Scale height on Mars for warm breathable air is 22km. We fill it up with O2 to get 1/3 bar on the floor so that we can breathe and have Smokey the Bear warning signs everywhere. At the top of a 110km column (Hellas basin gives us 8km free), the air pressure is 0.007 bar, or ~200kg per square metre. We let it blast over the side, and it falls into the SF6 because there is a huge pressure differential (SF6 scale height is 8km; at the top of a 100km column the air pressure is basically vacuum. Process the lost oxygen from the SF6 moat and pump back into Hellas. The larger the area, the slower the leak rate into the moat. Opt for a higher leak rate and the air dam can be smaller.Or you can forgo the SF6 and make the temperature in the moat just above liquid air temps; the moat still catches air and you pump it (or just let it flow) back into the reservoir. Adiabatic compression will heat the surrounding air somewhat but it has a big shade or something to keep it cool.Somewhat further afield I note that imperfectly conducting gas disks around stars rotating through a magnetic field create a toroidal field that pinches it. I wonder if that could be applied to a toroidal basin/moat setup to squash the scale height.
Hi! I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I just need some scientific points of view.I'm going to start drawing/writing a mini webcomic series based around space exploration in the Solar System in 2270 (just for fun).
Quote from: rakaydos on 07/01/2022 02:29 pmBy changing the composition in this region to have a lower scale height, the top of this pillar of air can remain mars pressure while the bottom of the pillar of air can be... higher than it is currently. High enough to be useful? I dont know enough to say.Scale height is inversely proportional to molar mass of the gas. Hence, sulphur hexafluoride would have a scale-height 3.32x smaller than Mars' current 11.1km (so 3.34km.)So picking a fairly arbitrary 10km between bottom of Hellas-deep and the membrane cap, that would give you 3 SH6 "scales", so 20 times (e^3) increase in pressure at the bottom compared to the top. Assuming Mars ambient pressure at the top (roughly 600pa), gives you around 12kpa at the bottom. So, 12% of Earth normal, around 1/8th SL. Equiv of 15km altitude. That's lower than the operating pressure of a pure-oxygen EVA suit, so you still need a pressure suit.Sulphur hexafluoride is a potent (crazy potent) greenhouse gas, which might seem like a good idea, keeping temps above freezing and a much reduced day/night thermal cycle. But it might be too potent a GHG, making the basin too hot, even with the conductive/convective cooling through the membrane.It's also an anaesthetic gas, so you can't just mix it with oxygen. But at that pressure, you'd still be living in pressurised habs and wearing pressure suits when outside, so it's not an issue.However... Using Perfluorobutane as the fill gas, you nearly double the molar mass, which nearly halves the scale height again and increases bottom pressure (by e^6) to higher-that-Earth-SL. Which is starting to get interesting. It's also still a stupidly potent greenhouse gas, but not as crazy as SF6, and given the high pressure, can be diluted with any arbitrary gas, like nitrogen, to lower the pressure, so might be more useful. It is, however, much harder to produce than SF6 AIUI. Same issue with SH6 in being an anaesthetic and nervous system depressant, so you still need a separate breather and good seals. However, being at high pressure means your habs can be unpressurised, and there's a greater risk of outside atmosphere flowing inwards through leaky seals, instead of outwards. It's still vastly safer than a pressure vessel in a near-vacuum, but now adds its own special risk. So you might aim to keep the outside pressure at 3/4 SL (via mix gases to dilute the perflurobutane) with the habs at a full 1atm, in order to ensure positive pressure. Likewise, when working outside, have your breathing mask or hood pressurised just slightly above that outside 3/4 SL, just enough positive pressure to give some protection against suffocation if your mask-seals are crappy. (No pre-breath required.)Downside of all the fluorides is that when used around, say, arcing electrical equipment and high-temp industrial equipment, can break down into fluorine gas or hydrogen fluoride. Which is super unfun, yo. But I don't know how big a risk that is. Worst case, you put those systems in a nitrogen or CO2 bubble.
Venus might be cooled with a combination of CO2 conversion and a huge, manufactured in space 'sunshield'. But the darn place rotates so terribly slowly this contributes to it's lackluster magnetic field - and who wants permanent daylight anyhow?! Mars is a better candidate for Terraforming. But I've always been very lukewarm for the idea. It would take a hell of a lot of money, energy and centuries of time to change it. Why bother? All the trillions spent on it and centuries to Terraform might instead be better used Terraforming Earth back to the 'ideal' state and building Starships to travel to other systems where Earth like planets had been discovered.We already build gigantic sports stadiums and enclosed communities on Earth. Why not just use our Civil Engineering Super-know how to build pressurized Super-Domed cities on Mars? And if Mars does turn out to have a residual, albeit dying ecosystem left there - I don't think we have the ethical right to decimate it. Just my two cents worth of opinions...
And terraforming Mars, in particular partial terraforming, is FAR easier than substantial crewed interstellar travel. Like you describe. Only someone who doesn’t really understand how hard interstellar travel is would say otherwise.
You could make nanoballoon robots that replicate themselves from carbon and construct nanodiamonds they drop to the surface.
Quote from: mlorrey on 07/28/2022 12:03 amYou could make nanoballoon robots that replicate themselves from carbon and construct nanodiamonds they drop to the surface.I had wondered about nano-balloon robots quite recently, or more specifically a " lighter than air liquid".Im not sure if my logic is correct, but I think instead of having an atmosphere that gradually thins to nothing you could fill a crater or canyon with a lighter than air liquid and trap an atmosphere beneath it. The compressed air beneath is denser than the liquid but above could be pure vacuum...or maybe it would just form a whirlpool hole and the air would gush through it.
Quote from: MATTBLAK on 10/23/2019 11:17 amVenus might be cooled with a combination of CO2 conversion and a huge, manufactured in space 'sunshield'. But the darn place rotates so terribly slowly this contributes to it's lackluster magnetic field - and who wants permanent daylight anyhow?! Mars is a better candidate for Terraforming. But I've always been very lukewarm for the idea. It would take a hell of a lot of money, energy and centuries of time to change it. Why bother? All the trillions spent on it and centuries to Terraform might instead be better used Terraforming Earth back to the 'ideal' state and building Starships to travel to other systems where Earth like planets had been discovered.We already build gigantic sports stadiums and enclosed communities on Earth. Why not just use our Civil Engineering Super-know how to build pressurized Super-Domed cities on Mars? And if Mars does turn out to have a residual, albeit dying ecosystem left there - I don't think we have the ethical right to decimate it. Just my two cents worth of opinions...Of course it’s easier to geoengineer Earth than terraform Mars! That’s not an argument against terraforming Mars because the motivation has nothing to do with trashing Earth. (No matter how many times that strawman is repeated!!)And terraforming Mars, in particular partial terraforming, is FAR easier than substantial crewed interstellar travel. Like you describe. Only someone who doesn’t really understand how hard interstellar travel is would say otherwise.
The pitch is to mass produce small scale solar sails in terrestrial cell phone factories, launch them into Low(ish) Earth Orbit (LEO), and have them fly themselves to Mars where, hanging out near Sun-Mars L2, they would reflect additional sunlight onto the night side of the planet. I first wrote about this four years ago.<snip>Mars’ cross sectional area is about 36,000,000 km^2. 1000 sails add one additional square km to this tally. 150 million sails per year adds 150,000 km^2, which is an 0.4% increment in solar forcing. It is uncertain exactly how much extra heat is needed to heat Mars to the point where volatiles outgas from the regolith and trigger a positive feedback loop preventing radiative heat escape, but even if we brute force it, a decade of launches will increase the effective solar collection by 4% and, with 1.5 billion sails above Mars’ night sky, the view would be spectacular. As a rough estimate, a 4% increase in energy input would require 4% higher thermal radiation to achieve equilibrium, which depending on some geometric factors of order unity, would result in a 1% temperature increase, from 210 K to 212 K. This is twice what we’ve achieved with 250 years of industrial effort on Earth, burning a trillion tonnes of fossil fuels!In fact, a solar sail placed near Sun-Mars L2 would have an apparent magnitude of about -0.75, similar to Polaris or Saturn, while billions of them filling a cloud with an angular extent of about 5 degrees would have thousands of sails per human eye pixel, creating a cloud of light like the Milky Way, only a substantially brighter echo of the reflected sun. While the surface brightness of this cloud would be only ~0.1% of the sun, the integrated brightness would be more than Earth’s Moon when full.