Author Topic: Dragon as CEV?  (Read 18955 times)

Offline gladiator1332

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Dragon as CEV?
« on: 08/17/2009 06:56 pm »
With all of the Orion-Lite talk on here, I thought I would start a separate thread for the other Orion-alternative...SpaceX's Dragon.

While an Orion-Lite could be a good potential test bed for the future CEV, it would need to grow into the NASA Orion for exploration missions.

From what I have read on here, SpaceX is with some modifications, Dragon could be used for exploration type flights. For LEO Dragon could be launched on a Falcon 9 or any other EELV. And for exploration missions, it could fly on a SDLV.

I like the idea of the basic LEO spacecraft being a testbed for the future exploration spacecraft. I think we can work out a lot of bugs in LEO and ISS before going on a longer exploration mission.

Offline rklaehn

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #1 on: 08/17/2009 07:16 pm »
With all of the Orion-Lite talk on here, I thought I would start a separate thread for the other Orion-alternative...SpaceX's Dragon.

While an Orion-Lite could be a good potential test bed for the future CEV, it would need to grow into the NASA Orion for exploration missions.

From what I have read on here, SpaceX is with some modifications, Dragon could be used for exploration type flights. For LEO Dragon could be launched on a Falcon 9 or any other EELV. And for exploration missions, it could fly on a SDLV.

I like the idea of the basic LEO spacecraft being a testbed for the future exploration spacecraft. I think we can work out a lot of bugs in LEO and ISS before going on a longer exploration mission.

The problem is that the shape of the dragon capsule does not allow as much lift as the apollo-derived shape of orion. You would either have to

(1) beef up the base heat shield and the sides of the capsule and fly a very hot direct entry
(2) fly a zond-style skip reentry
or
(3) do an aerocapture followed by aerobraking.

The heat shield material PICA used by spacex is certainly capable of a hyberbolic reentry if you use enough of it.

Other modifications would be increased radiation shielding and a different life support system.

I am sure that mr. musk has considered using dragon beyond LEO. But we should maybe wait for the first successful falcon 9 launch before speculating about something like this.

Offline renclod

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #2 on: 08/17/2009 07:49 pm »
...
I like the idea of the basic LEO spacecraft being a testbed for the future exploration spacecraft. I think we can work out a lot of bugs in LEO and ISS before going on a longer exploration mission.

Apollo did exploration with minimal LEO testing - and no need for LEO operations to work out the bugs.

Orion is fine, just needs proper funding to start the moon base construction. ISS interim duty OK.

Dragon is not for [HSF] exploration.

« Last Edit: 08/17/2009 07:50 pm by renclod »

Offline R.Simko

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #3 on: 08/17/2009 08:32 pm »
Elon has done a very good job of designing, with plans to upgrade with minimal changes in the future.  Falcon 1 upgraded to Falcon 1e.  Falcon 9 upgrades to Falcon 9 Block 2.  Falcon 9 block 2 expands to Falcon 9 heavy.  Dragon cargo with minor changes becomes becomes Dragon Lab.   Dragon cargo, with modest changes becomes a Dragon Crew capsule capable for LEO.

From comments Elon has made, I feel that Elon's vision reaches beyond LEO.   I would not be surprised if he doesn't already have plans in mind for upgrading  his Dragon Crew capsule for LEO, to a Dragon Crew capsule for beyond LEO.   I don't know how he will do it, but if he keeps true to form, the upgrade will be done as a very logical next step.

It looks like there will be big changes coming soon for America's space program.   The first launch of Falcon 9 is schedualed for only months from now and the first Dragon capsule is schedualed to be completed next year.  Now is the time to look ahead, to what will come next.   Depending on what Elon has in mind, I wouldn't count out a upgraded (or new Dragon 2) for beyond LEO.

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #4 on: 08/17/2009 08:40 pm »
Elon has done a very good job of designing, with plans to upgrade with minimal changes in the future.  Falcon 1 upgraded to Falcon 1e.  Falcon 9 upgrades to Falcon 9 Block 2.  Falcon 9 block 2 expands to Falcon 9 heavy.  Dragon cargo with minor changes becomes becomes Dragon Lab.   Dragon cargo, with modest changes becomes a Dragon Crew capsule capable for LEO.

With all due respect to Elon, I wouldn't say he designed all that. He recruited a number of experienced engineers and it's ultimately a team effort. Those people should get credit, too. SpaceX designed all that.

Anyway, we'll see soon enough if it was a very good design or not. I'm all for them succeeding, but let's not jump the gun here.

Offline R.Simko

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #5 on: 08/17/2009 09:14 pm »
I guess I was using Elon synonymously with the entire SpaceX team.  I wasn't trying to imply that Elon personly designed all those things.   My opologies for not writing my blog to fully include the entire SpaceX team.  They have ALL done incredable work and shown great foresight in their designing.  I tip my hat to the entire SpaceX team.   Go SpaceX  !!!!!!!
« Last Edit: 08/17/2009 09:23 pm by R.Simko »

Offline Variable

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #6 on: 08/17/2009 10:40 pm »
Elon has done a very good job of designing, ...

Elon this and that.

Lets not fall into some cult of personality situation.  Mr. Musk hired lots of people smarter than he is who are doing the work, and no doubt heavily influencing "the vision."

We can applaud and cheer the man for what he's trying to do (and I do) but we need not contribute to his ego with such gusto and misdirection.
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Offline clongton

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #7 on: 08/17/2009 11:02 pm »
Mr. Musk hired lots of people smarter than he is <snip>

No, he hired the right talent to create the team. He did not hire people that are *smarter* than him.
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Offline Variable

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #8 on: 08/17/2009 11:11 pm »
Mr. Musk hired lots of people smarter than he is <snip>

No, he hired the right talent to create the team. He did not hire people that are *smarter* than him.

I guess we differ on the definition of "smarter" or what? 
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Offline trout007

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #9 on: 08/18/2009 12:19 am »
If anything he created an environment with a vision, funding, and an acceptance of good failures. What is a good failure? Fast cheap failures that you can learn from are better than paralysis by analysis.

Offline sandrot

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #10 on: 08/18/2009 12:23 am »
Mr. Musk hired lots of people smarter than he is <snip>

No, he hired the right talent to create the team. He did not hire people that are *smarter* than him.

I guess we differ on the definition of "smarter" or what? 

I believe Chuck is right on the money. Elon created a team with the right skill set. Smart is a very relative term. As a matter of fact having an extraordinary IQ doesn't tell much about your ability to design a rocket.
"Paper planes do fly much better than paper spacecrafts."

Offline Variable

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #11 on: 08/18/2009 01:05 am »
Mr. Musk hired lots of people smarter than he is <snip>

No, he hired the right talent to create the team. He did not hire people that are *smarter* than him.

I guess we differ on the definition of "smarter" or what? 

I believe Chuck is right on the money. Elon created a team with the right skill set. Smart is a very relative term. As a matter of fact having an extraordinary IQ doesn't tell much about your ability to design a rocket.

I'll stand by my well known and generally accepted, mainstream use of the phrase.

Substitute your phraseology if you'd like, my point remains.
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Offline Variable

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #12 on: 08/18/2009 01:10 am »
If anything he created an environment with a vision, funding, and an acceptance of good failures. What is a good failure? Fast cheap failures that you can learn from are better than paralysis by analysis.

YES!
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Offline kkattula

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #13 on: 08/18/2009 03:25 am »
Um, technically, Elon is the Chief Designer at SpaceX.  And if you think he's not smart...   Integrating two launch vehicle and one spacecraft programs on an annual budget of less than $200 million?

May I point out that Falcon 9 has about half the payload to LEO of Ares I, and Dragon carries as many crew as Orion (more now).  Reasonable estimates put Dragon at 2 years and $200 million from carrying 6 crew to ISS.  Orion is what, 9 years now (for the ISS only version), and how many $ billions?


A reasonable plan might use the Dragon (or other crew-cab) for launch to LEO and re-entry only.  A dedicated transfer habitat would provide the radiation protection and long term life support.



Offline R.Simko

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #14 on: 08/18/2009 03:32 am »
I like Trouts007's diffinition of what a GOOD FAILURE is.   "Fast cheap failures you can learn from are better than paralysis by analysis."  :)

Offline Variable

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #15 on: 08/18/2009 04:20 am »
Um, technically, Elon is the Chief Designer at SpaceX.  And if you think he's not smart...   Integrating two launch vehicle and one spacecraft programs on an annual budget of less than $200 million?

May I point out that Falcon 9 has about half the payload to LEO of Ares I, and Dragon carries as many crew as Orion (more now).  Reasonable estimates put Dragon at 2 years and $200 million from carrying 6 crew to ISS.  Orion is what, 9 years now (for the ISS only version), and how many $ billions?


A reasonable plan might use the Dragon (or other crew-cab) for launch to LEO and re-entry only.  A dedicated transfer habitat would provide the radiation protection and long term life support.




Who said he wasn't smart?

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Offline NUAETIUS

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #16 on: 08/18/2009 04:40 am »
From comments Elon has made, I feel that Elon's vision reaches beyond LEO.   I would not be surprised if he doesn't already have plans in mind for upgrading  his Dragon Crew capsule for LEO, to a Dragon Crew capsule for beyond LEO.   I don't know how he will do it, but if he keeps true to form, the upgrade will be done as a v

Now is the time to look ahead, to what will come next.   Depending on what Elon has in mind, I wouldn't count out a upgraded (or new Dragon 2) for beyond LEO.

Ok back on subject.

Considering the Capsule is the majority of the cost in a SpaceX manned launch it would make since for SpaceX to design a new capsule outer shell for Lunar or Mars entry.  Dang you Danny, I can't argue with a Rocket Scientist!

But all of that would be over a decade out, at the earliest.  SpaceX has a lot to do in the next 5 years.  I think the better use of the Dragon capsule in the Exploration systems is as a logistics pod.

Imagine 4 Dragons, minus the TPS  attached to a 6 sided node, with a habitation module (de-mothball the one for ISS, or use a 330 Bigelow module) and  CEV in the front, and something akin to a propulsion only Progress module in the back.  Of course it wouldn't work that easy, but the idea is interesting (That sure would be a mess of Solar panels coming off the Dragons).

It would give you a good hunk of logistics, but I don't know what a an exploration vehicle would need all that extra unpressurized mass in the boot.
« Last Edit: 08/18/2009 04:53 am by NUAETIUS »
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Offline Danny Dot

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #17 on: 08/18/2009 04:50 am »
With all of the Orion-Lite talk on here, I thought I would start a separate thread for the other Orion-alternative...SpaceX's Dragon.

While an Orion-Lite could be a good potential test bed for the future CEV, it would need to grow into the NASA Orion for exploration missions.

From what I have read on here, SpaceX is with some modifications, Dragon could be used for exploration type flights. For LEO Dragon could be launched on a Falcon 9 or any other EELV. And for exploration missions, it could fly on a SDLV.

I like the idea of the basic LEO spacecraft being a testbed for the future exploration spacecraft. I think we can work out a lot of bugs in LEO and ISS before going on a longer exploration mission.

The problem is that the shape of the dragon capsule does not allow as much lift as the apollo-derived shape of orion. You would either have to

(1) beef up the base heat shield and the sides of the capsule and fly a very hot direct entry
(2) fly a zond-style skip reentry
or
(3) do an aerocapture followed by aerobraking.

The heat shield material PICA used by spacex is certainly capable of a hyberbolic reentry if you use enough of it.

Other modifications would be increased radiation shielding and a different life support system.

I am sure that mr. musk has considered using dragon beyond LEO. But we should maybe wait for the first successful falcon 9 launch before speculating about something like this.

The Dragon shape is very capable of doing a lunar entry without a skip.  The Russians only skipped to get up into Russia.  And, many Zond entries were made in a direct entry mode. 

Dragon does have something like .2 lift over drag to Orion's .26 or so.  This loss of lift over drag should not be a big problem.  A small reduction in cross range is the only problem.  The Dragon is also 100% passively stable.  The Orion shape is not.  I see no problems with Dragon at all.

Danny Deger
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Offline Danny Dot

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #18 on: 08/18/2009 05:00 am »
Elon has done a very good job of designing, ...

Elon this and that.

Lets not fall into some cult of personality situation.  Mr. Musk hired lots of people smarter than he is who are doing the work, and no doubt heavily influencing "the vision."

We can applaud and cheer the man for what he's trying to do (and I do) but we need not contribute to his ego with such gusto and misdirection.

At least he was smart enough to see if you can package the capsule to be passively stable without having an orbit module to store the orbit stuff.  I have first hand knowledge NASA did not bother to look.  I kept insisting we look at a Soyuz shape, but was kicked off the team for my efforts.  In my opinion, NASA made a mistake to go to the Apollo shape.  NASA certainly didn't make an informed decision to reject passive stability during entry.  SpaceX bothered to look and picked the right shape.

Danny Deger
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Dragon as CEV?
« Reply #19 on: 08/18/2009 10:32 am »
I would imagine that the biggest single difference between what I call the 'Dragon-d' (the COTS-D entrant) and the 'Dragon-e' (beyond-LEO explortion) would be the replacement of the current mostly-hollow trunk with a true Service Module.  This would need its own packs of Draco thrusters and one or two Kestrel engines (the same type as the Falcon-1 upper stage) as an MPS.  It would also need a high-gain communications system and additional life support consumables for the crew.

In terms of modifications to the capsule itself, there would need to be improved TPS and radiation protection.  I would also imagine that the crew capacity would be reduced from 7 to 4, with the rear row of seats replaced by more crew support facilities (toilet and more consumables stowage).  Given that Dragon is slightly larger than Apollo, there is no logistical reason why it could not support a 7-8 day lunar mission (orbital or flyby) without any further modifications.  As the vehicle would likely carry out several MPS burns whilst docked to a mission module, the capsule would also need to be structurally sound enough to handle significant force loads through its docking interface.

Lunar and asteroid flyby/orbiter missions would probably also have a DragonLab along for the ride.  This would both contain extra stowage, increase the crew living area (there might be some basic exercise equipment included) and act as an EVA airlock, should crew activities outside the vehicle be required.  The DragonLab's trunk could contain sensors such as spectrometers, high-resolution cameras and a mapping radar.

The Raptor LH2/LOX engine is an obvious candidate for the EDS, although the lower boil-off rate of RP1 might make the Merlin-1e worth the bother of requring more fuel because of its lower isp.

The weights invovled would make Falcon-9H the baseline launch vehicle, unless some manner of arrangement was made to allow for the use of the Atlas-V-551 and Delta-IVH to launch mission modules and the EDS into orbit.

The point of all this? IMHO, R.Simko is right - Beyond-LEO applications have always been a guiding idea of many SpaceX projects and proposals.  A part of me wonders if Mr. Musk plans to take a peek at the far side of the Moon with Mr. Bigelow.
« Last Edit: 08/18/2009 12:49 pm by Ben the Space Brit »
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