Jared Isaacman nominated as NASA Administrator

[JohnFornaro]

What was the work culture at NASA during Apollo?

I doubt a 9-to-5 culture encourages excellence.  We might wish it would, but I doubt that is reality.

Many years ago, one of my mentors lectured me about "continual" overtime, saying, more or less:  "Overtime to meet a known deadline is one thing, but continual overtime indicates that either the workforce is too small, or the "deadlines" are artificially erroneous.

There's also the idea/strategy which argues for years of 80 hour weeks as the roadmap to wealth.  IMO, a minority of people have this amount of drive. Again, IMO, it is wrong to force people into years of 80 hour weeks.

IOW, I doubt an 80hour/week culture encourages excellence.

[JohnFornaro]

I'm excited and concerned.  I think Michael Altenhofen's 15 years at SpaceX give him more experience than 15 years at NASA. 

Not really.  Only of missions of same launch vehicle and spacecraft and not breadth experience with different spacecraft and contractors.

You're overlooking that people can learn.

[Hyperborealis]

Many years ago, one of my mentors lectured me about "continual" overtime, saying, more or less:  "Overtime to meet a known deadline is one thing, but continual overtime indicates that either the workforce is too small, or the "deadlines" are artificially erroneous.

There's also the idea/strategy which argues for years of 80 hour weeks as the roadmap to wealth.  IMO, a minority of people have thisamount of drive. Again, IMO, it is wrong to force people into years of 80 hour weeks.

IOW, I doubt an 80hour/week culture encourages excellence.

80 hours/week work culture selects for people with the drive to do it, which correlates with excellence. People will only work that hard for so long if they are good at it.

Also the organization goes roughly 2x pace of 40 hours/week places.

Yes, famously people burn out at Musk companies. And then are replaced. Tough for any given individual, but sustainability on the individual basis does not matter. 

[JohnFornaro]

IOW, I doubt an 80hour/week culture encourages excellence.

80 hours/week work culture selects for people with the drive to do it, which correlates with excellence. People will only work that hard for so long if they are good at it.

Also the organization goes roughly 2x pace of 40 hours/week places.

Yes, famously people burn out at Musk companies. And then are replaced. Tough for any given individual, but sustainability on the individual basis does not matter.

Our country was not founded on the collective, but rather the individual.  As I mentioned, IMO, it is wrong to force people into years of 80 hour weeks. The expected retort is along the lines of, if you don't want to work 80 hours a week, don't work at this company.

The supposed "correlation" with excellence is still subject to the causation exclusion.  It is to be hoped that Isaacman strives for excellence in the sense that NASA achievements are realized without artifical requirements.  For the last decade or so, NASA seems to have shortchanged us on "achievement".

I've coined a phrase:  "anti-competence".  This is roughly defined as doing the exact thing to keep accomplishment at bay.  I often use the Outer Mold Line [OML] as one example of this emerging behavior.  One way to delay the entire Artemis program would be to change the OML, which begs the question of why the OML wasn't correctly designed in the first place.  And yet, so much other work was done based on the original OML design, and had to be re-done.

I axed Grok:

Regarding the NASA Orion capsule: What were the delays due to changes in the outer mold line?

Overall, the delays in the Orion capsule due to changes in the outer mold line were primarily driven by the need to address significant safety concerns related to the heat shield's performance during reentry, which required both design modifications and extensive testing to ensure astronaut safety for subsequent missions.

Having thrown up this example, I maintain that an 80 hour work week is not as beneficial to mission accomplishment as some would argue.

[laszlo]

Many years ago, one of my mentors lectured me about "continual" overtime, saying, more or less:  "Overtime to meet a known deadline is one thing, but continual overtime indicates that either the workforce is too small, or the "deadlines" are artificially erroneous.

There's also the idea/strategy which argues for years of 80 hour weeks as the roadmap to wealth.  IMO, a minority of people have thisamount of drive. Again, IMO, it is wrong to force people into years of 80 hour weeks.

IOW, I doubt an 80hour/week culture encourages excellence.

80 hours/week work culture selects for people with the drive to do it, which correlates with excellence. People will only work that hard for so long if they are good at it.

Also the organization goes roughly 2x pace of 40 hours/week places.

Yes, famously people burn out at Musk companies. And then are replaced. Tough for any given individual, but sustainability on the individual basis does not matter.

You can just as easily substitute "methamphetamine use" for "an 80 hour work week culture". Both greatly increase individual productivity in the short term while physically and mentally destroying the individuals and their families. That kind of carnage is ethically justifiable in a situation where the survival of a population as a whole is at stake but absolutely not when it's just an impatient billionaire wanting to indulge his hobby without paying the full cost of labor.

Said billionaire would pitch a hissy fit if forced to permanently sell launch services and internet access below cost and subsidize it with the profits from his other companies, yet cannot see that asking workers to subsidize unpaid free overtime with the time normally set aside to maintain health, family relationships, social ties and spiritual values is exactly the same (or worse since it can result in permanent physical disability).

[Jim]

I'm excited and concerned.  I think Michael Altenhofen's 15 years at SpaceX give him more experience than 15 years at NASA. 

Not really.  Only of missions of same launch vehicle and spacecraft and not breadth experience with different spacecraft and contractors.

You're overlooking that people can learn.

The topic is experience and not what one can learn

[JohnFornaro]

I'm excited and concerned.  I think Michael Altenhofen's 15 years at SpaceX give him more experience than 15 years at NASA. 

Not really.  Only of missions of same launch vehicle and spacecraft and not breadth experience with different spacecraft and contractors.

You're overlooking that people can learn.

The topic is experience and not what one can learn

They're never going to get the perfect "experience" metric.  Isaacman has got a learning curve ahead of him.  The dream may be "experience", but that is not the only metric.  Learning is the key factor for success with the position.

[Hyperborealis]

Said billionaire would pitch a hissy fit if forced to permanently sell launch services and internet access below cost and subsidize it with the profits from his other companies, yet cannot see that asking workers to subsidize unpaid free overtime with the time normally set aside to maintain health, family relationships, social ties and spiritual values is exactly the same (or worse since it can result in permanent physical disability).

Some people like to go all in with a team, take themselves to the limit, push the technological boundaries,  achieve great things. And some people want to prioritize health, family relationships,  social ties and spiritual values. These are all good things, important for society, people should do what they want to do. But if you are a company doing the latter, you can't complain about being steamrolled by a competitor that does the former.

[abaddon]

I don't really know what people fighting over whether a 80 or 40 or 60 or whatever hour work week is great/ideal/bad/toxic/whatever is likely to resolve in anyone changing anyone's mind, and since we have no idea what Jared's opinion is on this (that I am aware of) for NASA maybe we should wait until if and when this becomes an actual policy point?

[Jim]

since we have no idea what Jared's opinion is on this (that I am aware of) for NASA maybe we should wait until if and when this becomes an actual policy point?

it can't be a "NASA" policy point.  NASA employees are US civil servants and policies are managed by the Office of Personnel Management.

[spacenut]

Well, when I was young, I worked a 40 hour work week, 3pm -11pm, for 3 years to pay my way through school.  I went to classes from 8am-12 noon.  Studied in the afternoons and weekends.  Had very little social life, but I did it.  A young person driven enough can work more than 40 hours a week.  Also, many business owners work more than 40 hours a week.  Depends on how much you love your job.  Those people who will go to Mars, or the moon for that matter, will want to work long hours. 

[Jimmy_C]

Well everyone comes from somewhere. This one comes from SpaceX. So what? He brings needed expertise.
It seems that some people are afraid of other people who are actually smart and experienced.
I wonder why that is?

Take off your blinders for once! Isaacman personally spent millions of dollars on a services from SpaceX. If he still owes them money or if he needs them for future work, that’s a huge conflict of interest. NASA is often accused of favoritism for Boeing on this forum based on circumstantial evidence, yet this indicates much more direct corrupt influence from SpaceX. I’m willing to give Isaacman the benefit of doubt, but insinuating the concerns aren’t valid is extremely poor judgement.

Chuck's post was talking about Michael Altenhofen, not Isaacman.

In any event, you should follow your own advice about blinders. Isaacman has paused the Polaris program and has said that he would follow any conflict and ethic rules required or recommended for confirmation. You are assuming that Isaacman owes SpaceX money but that is just an assumption. Polaris 2 hasn't even started, so I doubt that Isaacman owes SpaceX money for services that have yet to be rendered.

The post he was responding to mentioned Isaacman   a more than Altenhofen. I’m sorry for not understanding whom Chuck was referring to.

I don’t have blinders on. I literally wrote, “I’m willing to give Isaacman the benefit of doubt.” That is not something someone with blinders on thinks. You shouldn’t use language sloppily.

Polaris is a large commitment to SpaceX by Isaacman. Being on pause doesn’t mean it isn’t important to him! Polaris can’t switch providers (and to whom would they switch). If SpaveX decided they didn’t want to deal with Isaacman, that’s the end of the program. Money for Isaaacman is likely less important than his passion projects. So there’s always an incentive to be biased for SpaceX.

Even if he is a fair person willing to sacrifice that personal relationship with SpaveX, he still needs to be very careful. Officials at sporting events sometimes have to recuse themselves when they know or trained with one of the teams. Otherwise they are still accused of bias regardless whether they try to be fair.

If people get that upset about bias at a sports event then it is more an issue at something important like being administrator at NASA. Nelson was rightfully accused of bias because of his political ties. He was also wrongfully accused of bias because of his political ties. Now Isaacman will have business ties. He might be able to judge things fairly, but those ties are still important issues that should be addressed. Not ignored with blinders.

[RedLineTrain]

What was the work culture at NASA during Apollo?

I doubt a 9-to-5 culture encourages excellence.  We might wish it would, but I doubt that is reality.

Short-term: One of the statistics that I heard at an earlier Apollo 11 anniversary was that 25% of the work hours of the Apollo program were unpaid overtime.

Long-term: Incessant overtime breaks people and families.

Edit: Admittedly, this is straying from the thread topic. 🤷‍♂️

I don't think it's straying from the thread topic.  We are competing against a 996 work culture.  Or maybe we aren't.  Not 100% sure.

[hektor]

I have the impression that a lot of important decisions are being made between the acting NASA leadership and the White House before Jared Isaacman is even confirmed by Senate. Being European, I am wondering if this is common practice during the transition. Should not "they" wait for Jared Isaacman to take office ?

[rsnellenberger]

I have the impression that a lot of important decisions are being made between the acting NASA leadership and the White House before Jared Isaacman is even confirmed by Senate. Being European, I am wondering if this is common practice during the transition. Should not "they" wait for Jared Isaacman to take office ?

Under the US Constitution, the President *IS* the Article II Executive Branch (it's called the "Unitary Executive").  Although the President can (and does) delegate authority to individuals like the NASA Administrator, he retains the ultimate authority for the powers given to him under the Constitution.  He (or his predecessors) can of course come to an agreement with the Legislature on constraints to those powers via legislation, and the Article III Courts can decide whether one (or both) are wrong. 

That said - all incoming administrations establish transition teams (formal or informal) to prepare for that moment in the inauguration when the new President formally assumes Executive responsibility.  They also "vet" the nominees to high-level posts that require Senate confirmation, assist the nominees during confirmation, and ensure a smooth transition — including coordination with Executive branch decisions that are made prior to them being sworn in.  Interestingly, I saw a report today that the transition teams focused heavily on quickly filling lower-level positions (not requiring Senate confirmation) to avoid the massive delays that hindered the first Trump administration — I wonder whether that had anything to do with the decision to appoint Janet Petro rather than Jim Free as Acting Administrator.

In short - no, the Administration doesn't have to wait for Isaacman to take office, but they are certainly briefing him and getting his feedback.

[RedLineTrain]

I have the impression that a lot of important decisions are being made between the acting NASA leadership and the White House before Jared Isaacman is even confirmed by Senate. Being European, I am wondering if this is common practice during the transition. Should not "they" wait for Jared Isaacman to take office ?

The big decisions are made by the White House.  Has always been like that.  So you really don't need the Administrator in place.  In fact, it might be better for the Administrator to come in after at least the initial implementation.  He will then pick up the pieces and make do with what is left.

[yg1968]

NASA and the DOGE: “Lean Into This Opportunity”:
https://www.leonarddavid.com/nasa-and-the-doge-lean-into-this-opportunity/

[JayWee]

I have the impression that a lot of important decisions are being made between the acting NASA leadership and the White House before Jared Isaacman is even confirmed by Senate. Being European, I am wondering if this is common practice during the transition. Should not "they" wait for Jared Isaacman to take office ?

The big decisions are made by the White House.  Has always been like that.  So you really don't need the Administrator in place.  In fact, it might be better for the Administrator to come in after at least the initial implementation.  He will then pick up the pieces and make do with what is left.

And not get the blame...

[yg1968]

https://twitter.com/rookisaacman/status/1888384716975349974

Busy w/
@Shift4
 transition & prepping for confirmation—but made time to fly a @StJude supporter today. Can’t comment on space, but eager to earn the Senate’s trust. If confirmed, I’ll work tirelessly w/the brightest minds at the greatest space agency to deliver on the President’s vision. The 2nd space age is just beginning. 🇺🇸

[JohnFornaro]

If confirmed, I’ll work tirelessly w/the brightest minds at the greatest space agency to deliver on the President’s vision.

To the Moon, thru my space station, and then on to Mars.