Author Topic: The $150 Space Camera: MIT Students Beat NASA On Beer-Money Budget.  (Read 10131 times)

Offline Orbiter

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Offline edkyle99

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http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/09/the-150-space-camera-mit-students-beat-nasa-on-beer-money-budget?

Nice,  :)

One of these days I've got to try that.

The next step would be to put the camera on a cheap rocket hanging from the balloon, James Van Allen "Rockoon" style.

 - Ed Kyle

Offline Orbiter

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http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/09/the-150-space-camera-mit-students-beat-nasa-on-beer-money-budget?

Nice,  :)

One of these days I've got to try that.

The next step would be to put the camera on a cheap rocket hanging from the balloon, James Van Allen "Rockoon" style.

 - Ed Kyle

Proof you don't need millions of dollars to send a ship in space :).
KSC Engineer, astronomer, rocket photographer.

Offline Rabidpanda

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I admire these student's success but I'm not sure how they beat NASA.

NASA has never tried to do this and they probably never will.  It is far too simple and offers no benefits to a government space agency.

Not everything needs to be labeled as a competition.

Offline Norm Hartnett

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I admire these student's success but I'm not sure how they beat NASA.

NASA has never tried to do this and they probably never will.  It is far too simple and offers no benefits to a government space agency.

Not everything needs to be labeled as a competition.

I'd be willing to bet that NASA couldn't do it for under $150. The meeting budget alone would exceed that. The paperwork budget would exceed that. The travel budget would exceed that. Hell just holding a meeting to discuss the possibility of doing it would cost more than $150. In fact there is a fairly high possibility that just the NASA employees that have viewed this thread and that link have cost NASA more than $150.
 
;D
“You can’t take a traditional approach and expect anything but the traditional results, which has been broken budgets and not fielding any flight hardware.” Mike Gold - Apollo, STS, CxP; those that don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it: SLS.

Offline cneth

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I admire these student's success but I'm not sure how they beat NASA.

NASA has never tried to do this and they probably never will.  It is far too simple and offers no benefits to a government space agency.

Not everything needs to be labeled as a competition.

I'd be willing to bet that NASA couldn't do it for under $150. The meeting budget alone would exceed that. The paperwork budget would exceed that. The travel budget would exceed that. Hell just holding a meeting to discuss the possibility of doing it would cost more than $150. In fact there is a fairly high possibility that just the NASA employees that have viewed this thread and that link have cost NASA more than $150.
 
;D

If you're going to do the math that way, the students should have to tell us how much time they spent, and maybe how many school resources they spent researching their project...

These guys replicated something various (mostly Ham radio) folks have been doing for at least 10+ years.    Nice work, but hardly ground breaking... 

Offline rdale

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These guys replicated something various (mostly Ham radio) folks have been doing for at least 10+ years.    Nice work, but hardly ground breaking... 

Hmmm... I don't think you'd find a ham setup with balloon and camera for less than $150. But if you can, I'd be interested!

Offline Norm Hartnett

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If you're going to do the math that way, the students should have to tell us how much time they spent, and maybe how many school resources they spent researching their project...

These guys replicated something various (mostly Ham radio) folks have been doing for at least 10+ years.    Nice work, but hardly ground breaking... 

Well... yeah, odds are these guys beer budget probably was higher than $150.
« Last Edit: 09/16/2009 03:34 am by Norm Hartnett »
“You can’t take a traditional approach and expect anything but the traditional results, which has been broken budgets and not fielding any flight hardware.” Mike Gold - Apollo, STS, CxP; those that don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it: SLS.

Offline LegendCJS

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If you're going to do the math that way, the students should have to tell us how much time they spent, and maybe how many school resources they spent researching their project...

These guys replicated something various (mostly Ham radio) folks have been doing for at least 10+ years.    Nice work, but hardly ground breaking... 


Well... yeah, odds are these guys beer budget probably was higher than $150.

MIT administration will tell you they spend ~$260 a day on each of their graduate students, I'm willing to bet that a *team* of students (more than the two mentioned) spent at least a month on this from start to finish.  And to do this safely they should have had to buy insurance to cover the possibility that their falling beer cooler could damage anything or anyone on the ground- that would have made it cost quite a bit more.
Remember: if we want this whole space thing to work out we have to optimize for cost!

Offline iamlucky13

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Aside from the obvious question of, "In what way did they beat NASA?" there's the more revealing question of "In what way did they beat the four teenagers who did this six months ago with a balloon that sent back real time telemetry?"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1162659/Students-tie-56-camera-balloon-send-edge-space-capture-stunning-images-Earth.html

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/03/meteotek_highaltitude_balloon_proje.html

It's cool, but definitely not new.

Offline rdale

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Aside from the obvious question of, "In what way did they beat NASA?" there's the more revealing question of "In what way did they beat the four teenagers who did this six months ago with a balloon that sent back real time telemetry?"

Well, I'm not an economist, but I am good with the calculator.

The cost for the 4 teenager's system: $1350
The cost for this system: $150

I think that should be a little more clear what this group has done that none other has ;)

Offline kevin-rf

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Aside from the obvious question of, "In what way did they beat NASA?" there's the more revealing question of "In what way did they beat the four teenagers who did this six months ago with a balloon that sent back real time telemetry?"

Well, I'm not an economist, but I am good with the calculator.

The cost for the 4 teenager's system: $1350
The cost for this system: $150

I think that should be a little more clear what this group has done that none other has ;)

Simple, buy a prepaid cell phone with a camera built in. Mod it to take pictures at preset times, tie to a balloon,  hand to the little girl at the phillies game, and have it text the pics to the ground... << $150 :D

:P
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Offline Robotbeat

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I want to try this. I've been meaning to try it for a while, now. I want to start out with solar-powered hot-air balloons made of thin, black plastic bags going a few hundred feet in the air before I attempt a few miles.
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Offline Robotbeat

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An even cheaper way to do it would be to just put a "return me to Minnesota 123 simple road, 54321 for a prize!" on the outside of it, that way you could go without the prepaid cellphone.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline Rabidpanda

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Simple, buy a prepaid cell phone with a camera built in. Mod it to take pictures at preset times, tie to a balloon,  hand to the little girl at the phillies game, and have it text the pics to the ground... << $150 :D

:P


this is a great idea.  The only two problems I see are the phones reception at high altitudes and the quality of the camera.

Other than that this would be extremely simple and bring back really cool results.

Perfect for a high school science project.

Offline Bubbinski

"The next step would be to put the camera on a cheap rocket hanging from the balloon, James Van Allen "Rockoon" style."

I have this image in my mind of someone going to the hobby shop, buying an Estes Astrocam or some other rocket, (along with a 3 pack of C engines) putting it together, sticking it on the launch rod, under the balloon then trying the "Rockoon" idea.  But I don't know how well it would work, the stabilizing fins would only work in the atmosphere.  And I don't know how high it would go - I think the Astrocam could make it up to about 1000 feet on earth. 

I imagine if you actually wanted to make it up to 62 miles with an amateur "rockoon" you'd need something a little bit bigger (maybe not much bigger?) than a typical Estes rocket and with a guidance box and steerable rocket engine nozzle (or spin stabilization) instead of stabilizing fins.  But I'm not too good with advanced math and haven't made any calculations, so I'm not sure what would be needed to make such a thing work.
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Offline ineedalife999

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Well, the Estes rocket would do a couple hundred feet from the ground, but that's in thick air.  I guess it would depend on how far up the balloon went before the rocket launched.

Here's what you do.  A big ole' weather balloon, with a light tube hanging below it.  A small rocket is in the tube, facing upwards.  When you get to peak balloon altitude, two small Estes motors on the outside of the tube fire to set it into a rapid spin around the long axis.  Then, cut the line to the balloon, wait a moment for it to clear, and fire the rocket. 

Simple, right?   :o
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Offline Robotbeat

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The Rocket Modeller II java applet on nasa's site is a good way to answer some of these questions.

A simple pressure-fed liquid fuel rocket engine is a good fit for this, since you can get away with a much lower combustion chamber pressure when you're at 100,000ft. That's how I'd do it, anyways.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline edkyle99

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"The next step would be to put the camera on a cheap rocket hanging from the balloon, James Van Allen "Rockoon" style."

I have this image in my mind of someone going to the hobby shop, buying an Estes Astrocam or some other rocket, (along with a 3 pack of C engines) putting it together, sticking it on the launch rod, under the balloon then trying the "Rockoon" idea.  But I don't know how well it would work, the stabilizing fins would only work in the atmosphere.  And I don't know how high it would go - I think the Astrocam could make it up to about 1000 feet on earth. 

I imagine if you actually wanted to make it up to 62 miles with an amateur "rockoon" you'd need something a little bit bigger (maybe not much bigger?) than a typical Estes rocket and with a guidance box and steerable rocket engine nozzle (or spin stabilization) instead of stabilizing fins.  But I'm not too good with advanced math and haven't made any calculations, so I'm not sure what would be needed to make such a thing work.

To do something in the same category as the original Rockoon's, which used surplus Deacon rockets fitted with oversized fins added by Iowan grad studants, you would need a lot more total impulse than a cluster of "C" motors could provide.  Something in the high power amateur category might do the trick - perhaps an "N" or "O" booster with a "dart" on top to hit higher altitudes, fitted with really big fins.  Iowan's aren't necessary, but might improve your chances.  ;)

 - Ed Kyle

Offline Orbiter

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You know, if I strap a Teddy bear with a Camera on it, and put about 80 Estes D rocket motors on 3 separate stages, how far could that get me? :)
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Offline Patchouli

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If you're going to use a model rocket might as well use the bigger engines then a D such as G-80s the biggest you can buy or build without a license or just get a high power rocketry license and use an H and up motor.

Though if I was trying to aim for the edge of space I'd go with a hybrid motor just because you get more control and you can use the N2O for a simple cold gas RCS.
You probably could even get away with using nitrous solenoids originally intended for use in automotive racing applications.

OK it's no long beer money budget but it's still cheap.
« Last Edit: 09/19/2009 02:07 am by Patchouli »

Offline Robotbeat

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I imagine that if you had a pressure-fed liquid fuel rocket, you could use the pressurizing gas for cold gas thrusters. That was my plan. There are many small, high-pressure (4500psi) carbon-fibre nitrogen tanks used for paint-ball that have a built-in regulator (down to about 400psi--maybe you can find one that has less pressure for output?). They are relatively cheap, fairly ubiquitous, and quite lightweight. Besides being used for pressurization, the nitrogen could also be used for cold gas thrusters, maybe even instead of gimballing?

But anyways, this pressure-fed system wouldn't work except at high altitudes. If I ever end up making an amateur liquid-fueled rocket, I would try to test it at high altitude on a balloon like these MIT students.

BTW, I made my first small (1 cubic meter) solar-powered hot air balloon and I'm going to launch it tomorrow morning (Saturday). I spent $6 on masking tape and black garbage bags. I have enough materials left over to make a bigger one (about 27 cubic meters) that can hold a payload of about a pound (half a kg), plenty for a camera. I heard these things can go up to 50,000 feet! Yay for free lifting gas!
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline iamlucky13

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Aside from the obvious question of, "In what way did they beat NASA?" there's the more revealing question of "In what way did they beat the four teenagers who did this six months ago with a balloon that sent back real time telemetry?"

Well, I'm not an economist, but I am good with the calculator.

The cost for the 4 teenager's system: $1350
The cost for this system: $150

I think that should be a little more clear what this group has done that none other has ;)

Sure, it costs less, but either project was darn cheap, and even rudimentary scientific instruments sending back data in real-time impresses me a lot more than just hanging an off-the-shelf camera with an intervalometer from the balloon.

And really, the author of the article is just asking for it by comparing them to NASA. Picking the appropriate single point of comparison, you can claim just about anything beats anything else. For example:

A Kia Rio beats a Ferrari Enzo because it can hold more people

A shovel beats a backhoe because it costs less

A butter knife beats the space shuttle because opens letters more easily ;)

Offline AlexInOklahoma

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A curious?:  With it being so easy to loft a camera (payload, per se) to extreme heights, are there regulations/rules to follow to avoid men-in-black-suits making an appearance at your doorstep?  Does the FAA or other agency need to know if you are lifting metal cameras or other 'hard' objects into (possible) air-traffic routes even if the items are not in 'controlled airspace', so to speak?  I'm a bit rusty on my air-traffic regs  :-)  Seems that the guys that lofted a few interconnected balloons recently as a joke on the UFO crowd have a bit of an issue, iirr, but may be issue of 'creating a disturbance' rather than a hazard...

Alex

Offline rdale

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A curious?:  With it being so easy to loft a camera (payload, per se) to extreme heights, are there regulations/rules to follow to avoid men-in-black-suits making an appearance at your doorstep?  Does the FAA or other agency need to know if you are lifting metal cameras or other 'hard' objects into (possible) air-traffic routes even if the items are not in 'controlled airspace', so to speak?

If you click the link and go to their website, you'll see it's too light to be regulated.

Offline madscientist197

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$150 as the total cost for the system is bogus. In order to be fair it needs to take into account the value of the time invested by the students -- suddenly it won't seem so cheap. Comparing the cost of raw materials for this system to a NASA meeting budget isn't a sensible comparison.
« Last Edit: 09/19/2009 12:17 pm by madscientist197 »
John

Offline AlexInOklahoma

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rdale: thanks :-)  I almost always avoid any link that uses 'leet' of any spelling.  The breakaway strength of connecting rope is what interested me most, and nice that there was a direct FAA link - this'll be a great homeschool project for my daughter and I!  I have most of the things needed already and its just a short drive to middle-of-nowhere, so this is very doable.  Now to just work it into a 'lesson-plan' and convince the wife, LOL.

Alex

Offline rdale

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$150 as the total cost for the system is bogus.

Uhhh, no it's not. If I want to duplicate it, it'll cost me $150. If I want to duplicate the Spanish high schooler's, it'll cost me over a grand. I'm not sure I understand what you mean?

Offline madscientist197

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Because people are making apples to oranges comparisons. Earlier in the thread Norm (I'm not getting at anyone here ;) ) mentioned that $150 would be more than the NASA meeting budget required. Comparing this to the student budget, which has no allowance for the value of their time is unfair. For example, buying excessively cheap equipment might result in assembly taking hours longer, which might negate any savings made. It might have been more optimal to spend an hour working at a video store to earn the cash to buy more expensive equipment that then takes hours less time to build. If we don't take into account the time donated, then we are not making a fair comparison between the true costs of developing each system.

If I want to duplicate it, it'll cost me $150.
...And a lot of time (which you didn't mention).

It's not fair to take into account the value of NASA employees time and not that of your own (not that I'm saying that you made this particular comparison ;) ). Just because someone chooses to donate their time, doesn't mean that it doesn't have any financial value!


It's just that if someone wants to say that the students did a better job than NASA was capable of doing, I would prefer it to be a fair comparison that takes all factors into account.
« Last Edit: 09/20/2009 09:04 am by madscientist197 »
John

Offline rdale

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I see - well I wasn't comparing to NASA, I was comparing to my ability to duplicate ;) If it takes me a few hours and $150, that's something I'd try with my kids. If it takes me a few hours and $1300, that's something I won't try.

They made the cut for me...

Offline Downix

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The Rocket Modeller II java applet on nasa's site is a good way to answer some of these questions.

A simple pressure-fed liquid fuel rocket engine is a good fit for this, since you can get away with a much lower combustion chamber pressure when you're at 100,000ft. That's how I'd do it, anyways.
You are EVIL for telling me about this applet....

Been working on designs now for 5 hours.  8)
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline Bubbinski

Yeah, that applet got me hooked.  I have been trying to make a model rocket that would launch into lunar orbit.  The best I've done so far is a 2 stage design with C engines (and VERY little else, just a paper tube and tiny paper fins, which I tried to remove but could not) - and I've been able to make it to a little over 4700 FPS.  But I think I need over 6000 FPS to make it into lunar orbit, can someone confirm?
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Offline Downix

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Yeah, that applet got me hooked.  I have been trying to make a model rocket that would launch into lunar orbit.  The best I've done so far is a 2 stage design with C engines (and VERY little else, just a paper tube and tiny paper fins, which I tried to remove but could not) - and I've been able to make it to a little over 4700 FPS.  But I think I need over 6000 FPS to make it into lunar orbit, can someone confirm?
I can't get above 2400fps.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline Bubbinski

"I can't get above 2400fps." - is this with the same design?  I'm using 2 ply paper for my tubes (shrunken down to barest minimum size), no fins on the first stage, only 1 ply paper fins on the 2nd stage (which I can't seem to get rid of, so I shrink them down to the minimum possible size), no nosecone, no recovery system, no ballast, 2 C engines.  Essentially, the rocket is a pair of engines and nothing more.

Edit: Launching from the moon, with my latest tweak, I can make it up to 4800 FPS.  I can get up to 408 miles high and the thing can fly past 800 miles if I'm launching for distance.  On Mars, I can only make it up to past 35000 feet (60000 feet was with another design) and on earth past 2000 feet in altitude (3000 feet with other designs optimized for atmospheric flight, with nosecones).  The moon would be paradise for amateur rocket builders if they can ever make it up there.....
« Last Edit: 09/21/2009 04:15 am by Bubbinski »
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

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