Author Topic: Prospective Russian HLVs  (Read 169561 times)

Offline zaitcev

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #40 on: 02/11/2013 03:03 pm »
At that rate though wouldn't it make more sense to simply update the Energia?
It's a design from the sworn rival of RKKE. RKKE would not give up the Energiya design to Khrunichev even if Putin ordered them do it.

Edit: Actually such design transfer is not entirely unprecendented. When RKKE took over Energomash, one of the conditions was to split off the series production of RD-191, because otherwise RKKE would be holding Khrunichev by the balls. Even so, RD-191 was transfered from before-takeover Energomash.

Now, I suppose, in a market economy, Khrunichev could _buy_ Energiya from RKKE (for the purposes of updating that Hyperion proposes). That money could go a long way saving RKKE's realistic projects such as Sea Launch. Maybe buy a factory to make "Russian Zenit". But I do not expect anyone to be daft enough to finance such a deal.
« Last Edit: 02/11/2013 03:09 pm by zaitcev »

Offline Prober

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #41 on: 02/11/2013 06:10 pm »
Is this the project that Kazakhstan wanted to restart?
 
 
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Offline baldusi

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #42 on: 02/11/2013 10:35 pm »
They can't redo Energyia for many reasons. First, what they did had was the side load design for the Buran shuttle. They would have to redo everything for the inline. Second, they had the N-1 pads, MIK, etc. at Baikonur. Now they have to start from scratch, at East. Third, they had lots and lots of Ukrainian and other countries suppliers (remember the An-225, among other assets). They would have to redevelop them in Russia.
At last, the transport constraints for Baikonur are different than East. You could do 4.1m to Baikonur, albeit at some extra expense. Current Zenit cores are 3.9m, but East requires 3.8m.
Basically you you'd have to redevelop the whole ground infrastructure, the core, the boosters, the avionics, the GNC system, the support stations, etc.
There's no point of redoing Energyia without Kazakhstan and Ukraine, at least.

Offline Steve G

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #43 on: 02/12/2013 01:14 am »
The cheapest way to go would be to develop a rocket whose first stage is made of two RD171s.  You could add capacity by using two or four common Angara strap-ons.  Then go the distance by adding two or four Zenit based strap-ons like the Energia.  All the while by beefing up the upper stages.  All configurations would be useful and give the Russians unparalleled HLV flexibility.

Of course it's a pipe dream, just my two cents.

Offline Hyperion5

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #44 on: 02/12/2013 03:03 am »
They can't redo Energyia for many reasons. First, what they did had was the side load design for the Buran shuttle. They would have to redo everything for the inline. Second, they had the N-1 pads, MIK, etc. at Baikonur. Now they have to start from scratch, at East. Third, they had lots and lots of Ukrainian and other countries suppliers (remember the An-225, among other assets). They would have to redevelop them in Russia.
At last, the transport constraints for Baikonur are different than East. You could do 4.1m to Baikonur, albeit at some extra expense. Current Zenit cores are 3.9m, but East requires 3.8m.
Basically you you'd have to redevelop the whole ground infrastructure, the core, the boosters, the avionics, the GNC system, the support stations, etc.
There's no point of redoing Energyia without Kazakhstan and Ukraine, at least.

Is there any reason why they couldn't build the HLV out at Vostnochny and solve their transport problems that way?  I know this wouldn't work for the big Angaras and Soyuz rockets, but if Russia's building an HLV with Zenit-like boosters, why not build it on-site? 

Offline Danderman

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #45 on: 02/12/2013 03:28 pm »
They can't redo Energyia for many reasons. First, what they did had was the side load design for the Buran shuttle. They would have to redo everything for the inline. Second, they had the N-1 pads, MIK, etc. at Baikonur. Now they have to start from scratch, at East. Third, they had lots and lots of Ukrainian and other countries suppliers (remember the An-225, among other assets). They would have to redevelop them in Russia.
At last, the transport constraints for Baikonur are different than East. You could do 4.1m to Baikonur, albeit at some extra expense. Current Zenit cores are 3.9m, but East requires 3.8m.
Basically you you'd have to redevelop the whole ground infrastructure, the core, the boosters, the avionics, the GNC system, the support stations, etc.
There's no point of redoing Energyia without Kazakhstan and Ukraine, at least.

Is there any reason why they couldn't build the HLV out at Vostnochny and solve their transport problems that way?  I know this wouldn't work for the big Angaras and Soyuz rockets, but if Russia's building an HLV with Zenit-like boosters, why not build it on-site? 

That is what was tried with the N1.

Apart from the cost, the major issue is that there is no industrial base at the cosmodrome, so every part has to be transported out there, as well as all the tooling.

Offline akula2

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #46 on: 02/12/2013 04:43 pm »
Russia today lacks the HLV capability of its Soviet predecessors in the form of the Energia rocket.  But that hasn't stopped some Russian firms from dreaming big as the Russian economy has rebounded and Roscosmos has seen its funding steadily improved.  We can see the effects already in Russia committing itself to the first inter-planetary missions in 25 years, or since the august years of the USSR.  But will Russia ever commit itself to an HLV, and what form will such a vehicle take?
Commitment is not an issue for them as the answer lies in the para plus strong driving leadership. Since 2000, most of this 'rebound' credit goes to one man and of course some of his core team. Personally I believe they can build anything of any 'viable' size for much *less* comparative costs. It'll be matter of time, if at all they wish to build such a vehicle by looking at their goals...

Offline akula2

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #47 on: 02/12/2013 04:48 pm »
its fun to have dreams......but sadly don't think someone has gotten the memo.
What's wrong to have dreams  ???

Many in the West (lived in the US for 16 years) made fun of China and India by saying things like they could only dream blah blah. See today. China is world #1 on many parameters. India is picking up. So will the Russians...

Offline baldusi

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #48 on: 02/12/2013 06:44 pm »
Is there any reason why they couldn't build the HLV out at Vostnochny and solve their transport problems that way?  I know this wouldn't work for the big Angaras and Soyuz rockets, but if Russia's building an HLV with Zenit-like boosters, why not build it on-site? 
As Danderman said, that would require to do a massive industrial development investment on Vostnochny. And then you could only launch from there. Please remember that the Russians also launch from Plesetsk. And they might want to change the cosmodrome in the future. I still think think they should have put it at Vanino, and pay the extra land cost. But they didn't and now they are really investing on Vostnochny.
In any case, again, you have to have a real requirement. There's simply no current requirement for such a beast of a rocket. You could do something with 3.8m core and the Angara concept. And make a custom H2/LOX core with 5 RD-0146 that's air started.
Or you could use dual RD-162 and use CH4/LOX to get even better high energy solution.
But anything that you design should be transported by railroad to Vostnochny (that's 3.8m x 35m, I believe). If you need to go bigger I think it would actually be cheaper to develop an indigenous An-225, or buy a couple of modernized ones than to actually move all the industrial base.
Again, don't only think of the rocket. Think of the pad, the integration building, the dynamic and static test stands, the payload integration facilities, the payload testing facilities, etc. Most advanced payloads are made in Siberia, which is restricted to rail or An-124.
« Last Edit: 02/13/2013 06:06 pm by baldusi »

Offline fregate

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #49 on: 02/12/2013 11:38 pm »
Did you mean An-124? 
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Offline baldusi

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #50 on: 02/13/2013 06:06 pm »
Did you mean An-124? 
Yep, sorry.

Offline 360-180

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #51 on: 02/14/2013 07:29 am »
What about Energia-lifter VM-T?

Offline baldusi

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #52 on: 02/14/2013 12:15 pm »
Do they still have it or did they scrapped it? At least for the Energyia core, it required the tanks to be separated in LOX and H2 and transported en different flights. And I'm not sure they would still take such a risk to the crew.
But yes, you don't need an An-225. Just to develop a solution. But since Russia is planning on building An-124 on Russian factories, doing an An-225 shouldn't be that difficult. After all, Antonov lives from Russian contracts.
In any case, if you need a plane that carries the payload above it, you also need the structures to mount and dismount the payloads, hangars, etc.

Offline Hyperion5

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #53 on: 02/14/2013 05:37 pm »
Is there any reason why they couldn't build the HLV out at Vostnochny and solve their transport problems that way?  I know this wouldn't work for the big Angaras and Soyuz rockets, but if Russia's building an HLV with Zenit-like boosters, why not build it on-site? 

Or you could use dual RD-162 and use CH4/LOX to get even better high energy solution.
But anything that you design should be transported by railroad to Vostnochny (that's 3.8m x 35m, I believe). If you need to go bigger I think it would actually be cheaper to develop an indigenous An-225...

http://i10.servimg.com/u/f10/10/05/43/66/rocket10.gif

Well it's clear to me a Zenit's only problem is diameter, not stage length.  So I actually checked out the RD-162 stats.  They look extremely promising. 

http://www.kbkha.ru/?p=8&cat=11&prod=59

Motor size, mm
height 3550
diameter (max)
1650

It's 15 cm shorter than an RD-191 and much narrower (2.1 m vs 1.65 m).  That brings up a very interesting possibility; a methalox "Zenit".  Could you possibly fit a quartet of RD-162 engines into a 3.8 m core?  I know the business case wouldn't necessarily be the greatest, but if the Russians really want non-Ukrainian boosters, something like that might be their best option.  Also a possibility are Angara CCBs pushing up the Yenisei-5 or an Angara with a 4.1 m hydrolox core. 

Offline baldusi

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #54 on: 02/15/2013 09:01 pm »
CH4/LOX is 30% more voluminous than kerosene/lox combo (for stage combustion O/F ratios). And you can only do a stage so thin. Thus, Zenit is quite probably volume limited. CH4 might get a bit of extra performance, but surely not the 25% extra per kilo that it needs to compensate the total weight difference. As long as Russians are volume limited (i.e. train), they are better off with kerosene or something of similar density, like sinthyn or something along these lines.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #55 on: 02/15/2013 11:29 pm »
Wow, this has turned into a "design your own Russian HLV" thread.

 :-[ :-[

Offline JazzFan

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #56 on: 02/16/2013 12:32 am »
Wow, this has turned into a "design your own Russian HLV" thread.

 :-[ :-[

Kinda like the old "Direct" days.  Best thing that I love about engineering is creating the theory, testing, and final validation through application.  I don't mind the PowerPoint since you have to start somewhere and its not my budget or job on the line.

Offline Hyperion5

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #57 on: 02/16/2013 02:23 am »
Wow, this has turned into a "design your own Russian HLV" thread.

 :-[ :-[

Well that was just some momentary guesstimating on how to do it.  I brought that up mainly because there's some fundamental issue with nearly every prospective HLV design that's been proposed by Russian firms. 

The big Angara 7 would require an all-new pad at Vostnochny or Plesetsk and a new 3.8 m kerolox core, neither of which are necessarily going to be funded.  There's talk of the RD-0120 engine being revived for a 4.1 m hydrolox core for it (with one RD-0120), though that'd cost even more.  The easiest of all of them to build, the Sodruzhestvo (a 5-core Zenit), is dogged by the fact that it'd involve the Ukraine and require launching it at Baikonur, also a sore spot given Russian-Kazakh relations.  The Energia can't be launched out of Vostnochny without the Zenit boosters being airlifted there along with its central core, and it'd probably require modifications (to inline), a huge new pad, and reviving the RD-0120 engine.  I think the major killer for every plan is either politics or requirements for rail transportation in eastern Russia, where a 3.8 m core is maximum diameter. 

Getting around that problem would probably require more investment in infrastructure than the rockets would require.  But Khrunichev did propose the Yenisei-5 knowing that Vostnochny would be the launch site.  Any takers on how they planned to get around the rail transport issues? 

Offline Danderman

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #58 on: 02/16/2013 03:58 am »
There shouldn't be any takers, because most of these concepts are based on fantasy. Until the government puts money for an HLV in the budget, it's all just proposals. No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

Once there is money, then a real HLV would emerge, and it may be very different from any of these paper studies.

I should note that Kazakhstan is now more friendly towards Zenit, so a Zenit based HLV would have little Kazakh resistance, although that doesn't mean that any Russian government money would be invested in a Zenit based solution. And, no, the Kazakh government is not going to develop its own HLV.


Offline Prober

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #59 on: 02/16/2013 02:47 pm »
Wow, this has turned into a "design your own Russian HLV" thread.

 :-[ :-[

Well that was just some momentary guesstimating on how to do it.  I brought that up mainly because there's some fundamental issue with nearly every prospective HLV design that's been proposed by Russian firms. 

The big Angara 7 would require an all-new pad at Vostnochny or Plesetsk and a new 3.8 m kerolox core, neither of which are necessarily going to be funded.  There's talk of the RD-0120 engine being revived for a 4.1 m hydrolox core for it (with one RD-0120), though that'd cost even more.  The easiest of all of them to build, the Sodruzhestvo (a 5-core Zenit), is dogged by the fact that it'd involve the Ukraine and require launching it at Baikonur, also a sore spot given Russian-Kazakh relations. 


where can I find info on this proposal "Sodruzhestvo"?   Even a 3 core Zenit would be a powerful launcher, 5 core amazing.
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