Also if anyone can answer this, why do they want to reuse RD-0120? If they got the money and they are keen on spending it, why not design a new hydrolox engine? As I understand, the RD-0120 has got a terrible thrust-to-weight ratio.
Quote from: owais.usmani on 02/08/2013 07:48 amYenisei-5 and Amur-5 (another name for the biggest Angara) as envisioned by Khurunichev (Got these from NSF and NK forum):EDIT: so hkultala, as you can clearly see, its not Anatoly Zak who's making up 125mt to LEO for yenisei-5. Rather its Khurunichev themselves.And as you can see from the Krunichev slides, the core is 7.7m in diameter, not 4.1m.
Yenisei-5 and Amur-5 (another name for the biggest Angara) as envisioned by Khurunichev (Got these from NSF and NK forum):EDIT: so hkultala, as you can clearly see, its not Anatoly Zak who's making up 125mt to LEO for yenisei-5. Rather its Khurunichev themselves.
It's not just the drag, let's call it reason #0reason #1 - exceedingly optimistic calculations and assumptions for a roket that does not exist versus the one that actually didreason #2 - better mass fraction, including redesigned boosters that do not carry the recovery gear and use Angara-style modern constructionreason #3 - Energiya cheated by not including the fairing (it counted with payload), whereas even the magical Khrunichev fairing accounts for 7 tonnes
Reason #3 (Energiya cheated)--How exactly does this figure in?
Thanks for the explanation, zaitcev - it makes sense. Quote from: Hyperion5 on 02/08/2013 07:58 pmReason #3 (Energiya cheated)--How exactly does this figure in? All Energia payloads needed to provide their own fairing, due to the way payloads were side-mounted. So the effective payload would be less, depending on the payload. Or did I misunderstand?
what are people on Novosti Kosmonavtiki saying on the matter? Do they question the figures or have they figured out how Khrunichev arrived at them?
...Fregate, what are people on Novosti Kosmonavtiki saying on the matter? Do they question the figures or have they figured out how Khrunichev arrived at them?
Yenisei-5 - one of Khrunichev slides
Quote from: fregate on 02/10/2013 05:05 amYenisei-5 - one of Khrunichev slidesIt looks like they intend to build the central core in Vostnochny and simply ship the Zenit boosters in by rail. At that rate though wouldn't it make more sense to simply update the Energia? You could improve the propellant mass fraction on the core and boosters using better construction techniques and lighter materials. The only dramatic change would be putting the payload fairing up top. I would guess between lighter materials and lessened drag the Energia could be more capable than the Yenisei-5 and cheaper to develop. But maybe I'm missing something here. Is there any reason, fregate, for developing the all-new Yenisei-5 core when you could simply update the Energia's?
Phillip, You missed MRKS-1 family of re-usable LV by Khrunichev - unlike other former or "paper" LV projects at least this one got funds for Preliminary Design. Unfortunately because of Khrunichev 20+ history of Angara design nothing furher would happeneduntil Angara-5 maiden flight.
Quote from: Hyperion5 on 02/10/2013 05:38 amQuote from: fregate on 02/10/2013 05:05 amYenisei-5 - one of Khrunichev slidesIt looks like they intend to build the central core in Vostnochny and simply ship the Zenit boosters in by rail. At that rate though wouldn't it make more sense to simply update the Energia? You could improve the propellant mass fraction on the core and boosters using better construction techniques and lighter materials. The only dramatic change would be putting the payload fairing up top. I would guess between lighter materials and lessened drag the Energia could be more capable than the Yenisei-5 and cheaper to develop. But maybe I'm missing something here. Is there any reason, fregate, for developing the all-new Yenisei-5 core when you could simply update the Energia's?You are missing the obvious. That is EXACTLY what Yenisei-5 is - an updated/improved Energia. (With one less engine)
Quote from: Hyperion5 on 02/10/2013 05:38 am Is there any reason, fregate, for developing the all-new Yenisei-5 core when you could simply update the Energia's?You are missing the obvious. That is EXACTLY what Yenisei-5 is - an updated/improved Energia. (With one less engine)
Is there any reason, fregate, for developing the all-new Yenisei-5 core when you could simply update the Energia's?
I wonder if it has the similar growth potential as Energia which in it's full configuration the Vulkan with eight boosters and a large upper stage could lift 200MT.
Quote from: Lars_J on 02/10/2013 06:12 amQuote from: Hyperion5 on 02/10/2013 05:38 am Is there any reason, fregate, for developing the all-new Yenisei-5 core when you could simply update the Energia's?You are missing the obvious. That is EXACTLY what Yenisei-5 is - an updated/improved Energia. (With one less engine) I get that the Yenisei-5 is essentially an updated Energia, I'm just questioning why the Russians need to reinvent the wheel. They've already got the Energia core, so why not simply modify and update that instead of downgrading its potential with one fewer engine on an all-new, expensive core? The Energia was also meant to be able to be an in-line carrier rocket (see Vulkan Herkules). Surely they could save money converting it from a sidemounted design compared to building an all-new core. Fregate, what's your take on this? Would you prefer to convert the Energia's core design to inline or would you prefer a clean-sheet core like the Yenisei's?
Quote from: Hyperion5 on 02/11/2013 03:05 amQuote from: Lars_J on 02/10/2013 06:12 amQuote from: Hyperion5 on 02/10/2013 05:38 am Is there any reason, fregate, for developing the all-new Yenisei-5 core when you could simply update the Energia's?You are missing the obvious. That is EXACTLY what Yenisei-5 is - an updated/improved Energia. (With one less engine) I get that the Yenisei-5 is essentially an updated Energia, I'm just questioning why the Russians need to reinvent the wheel. They've already got the Energia core, so why not simply modify and update that instead of downgrading its potential with one fewer engine on an all-new, expensive core? The Energia was also meant to be able to be an in-line carrier rocket (see Vulkan Herkules). Surely they could save money converting it from a sidemounted design compared to building an all-new core. Fregate, what's your take on this? Would you prefer to convert the Energia's core design to inline or would you prefer a clean-sheet core like the Yenisei's?Again, why do you assume that it is clean sheet? It looks like the same diameter, similar size (only in-line). It appears to be exactly what you are suggesting, save for a missing engine. There's more to a stage than the # of engines, far more.
Quote from: Lars_J on 02/10/2013 06:12 amQuote from: Hyperion5 on 02/10/2013 05:38 am Is there any reason, fregate, for developing the all-new Yenisei-5 core when you could simply update the Energia's?You are missing the obvious. That is EXACTLY what Yenisei-5 is - an updated/improved Energia. (With one less engine) I get that the Yenisei-5 is essentially an updated Energia, I'm just questioning why the Russians need to reinvent the wheel. They've already got the Energia core, so why not simply modify and update that instead of downgrading its potential with one fewer engine on an all-new, expensive core? The Energia was also meant to be able to be an in-line carrier rocket (see Vulkan Herkules). Surely they could save money converting it from a sidemounted design compared to building an all-new core. Fregate, what's your take on this? Would you prefer to convert the Energia's core design to inline or would you prefer a clean-sheet core like the Yenisei's? Quote from: Patchouli on 02/11/2013 01:09 amI wonder if it has the similar growth potential as Energia which in it's full configuration the Vulkan with eight boosters and a large upper stage could lift 200MT.Judging from the booster layout, I'd say it's practically a given you could fit another quartet of them on the Yenisei-5. We've already seen from fregate's and others' attachments that you can mount a robust upper stage on it. I'd be willing to bet the Yenisei-5 in its largest version could top 180 mt to LEO. The pad upgrade for that would probably cost far more than the integration plus R & D, given Zenits have been flying for years.