Author Topic: Other than earth where is the best place to live?  (Read 44136 times)

Offline stargazer777

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #40 on: 06/06/2007 05:57 pm »

 

lambda0 - 4/6/2007  8:28 AM

 According to Landis (NASA), the best place is ...Venus !
 At 50 km altitude :
 - Atmospheric pressure is 1 bar
 - Temperature between 0° and 50°C
 - Plenty of solar energy but protection against the most dangerous radiations by the atmosphere
 - As the atmosphere is composed of CO2, a quite heavy gase, a balloon filed of oxygen and nitrogen would be in equilibrium, and a 1 or 2 km diameter balloon would easily carry a small city
 - Due to the rotation of the atmosphere, and by controling the latitude, it is possible to reproduce a day/night cycle similar to Earth
 - The atmosphere contains oxygen, carbon, sulfur, in fact many of the elements necessary for life

 At first sight, Venus seems to be a very hostile place (500°C on the surface, P=100 atmosphere), unless this thick atmosphere is considered as an ocean : Earth is also not so pleasant at 10000 m under the level of the sea.
 In fact, Venus may have many advantages compared to Mars...

Interesting! What would be the "gravity" in such a "balloon"? What's your source of information?
 

 

Come on guys!  Venus -- on the surface or in the atmosphere is incredibly hostile and dangerous environment.  We need to realize that planets with atmosphere like Venus are actually far more hostile and dangerous than planets or moons with no atmosphere at all.  Venus is probably a great potential candidate for terra forming but until that happens -- barring some stunning leaps in technology -- planting a colony on Venus, on the surface or in the atmosphere, would be criminal negligence at best and probably suicide as well.  Surface temperature of over 752 degrees F,  90 times higher atmospheric pressure than Earth, sulfuric acid clouds, winds of 300 km per hour -- sounds like Hades to me.  Read it and weep (from Wikipedia -- Venus Atmosphere.)

Atmosphere

 Main article: Atmosphere of Venus  

Venus has an extremely thick atmosphere, which consists mainly of carbon dioxide and a small amount of nitrogen. The pressure at the planet's surface is about 90 times that at Earth's surface—a pressure equivalent to that at a depth of 1 kilometer under Earth's oceans. The enormously CO2-rich atmosphere generates a strong greenhouse effect that raises the surface temperature to over 400 °C (752°F). This makes Venus' surface hotter than Mercury's, even though Venus is nearly twice as distant from the Sun and receives only 25% of the solar irradiance.

 
Cloud structure in Venus' atmosphere, revealed by ultraviolet observations
Cloud structure in Venus' atmosphere, revealed by ultraviolet observations
 

Studies have suggested that several billion years ago Venus' atmosphere was much more like Earth's than it is now, and that there were probably substantial quantities of liquid water on the surface, but a runaway greenhouse effect was caused by the evaporation of that original water, which generated a critical level of greenhouse gases in its atmosphere.[13] Venus is thus an extreme example of climate change, making it a useful tool in climate change studies.

 

Thermal inertia and the transfer of heat by winds in the lower atmosphere mean that the temperature of Venus' surface does not vary significantly between the night and day sides, despite the planet's extremely slow rotation. Winds at the surface are slow, moving at a few kilometers per hour, but because of the high density of the atmosphere at Venus' surface, they exert a significant amount of force against obstructions, and transport dust and small stones across the surface.[14] Above the dense CO2 layer are thick clouds consisting mainly of sulfur dioxide and sulfuric acid droplets. [15][16] These clouds reflect about 60% of the sunlight that falls on them back into space, and prevent the direct observation of Venus' surface in visible light. The permanent cloud cover means that although Venus is closer than Earth to the Sun, the Venusian surface is not as well heated or lit. In the absence of the greenhouse effect caused by the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, the temperature at the surface of Venus would be quite similar to that on Earth. Strong 300 km/h winds at the cloud tops circle the planet about every four to five earth days.[17]

 

 

 

 



Offline clongton

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RE: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #41 on: 06/06/2007 06:52 pm »
Quote
stargazer777 - 3/6/2007  11:35 PM
I think that something along the lines of the O'Neill space habitats will ultimately prove to be the the solution of choice for off-world habitation, at least until we find or create another Earth-type planet. 
I would think that by the time we can actually build and maintain something like that, we should be able to terraform a place like Mars. Terraforming would probably be easier than the space habitats.

Has anyone read Rendevous with Rama"? It's a great read - I recommend it. Rama is an O'Neill-type space habitat. Fascinating read.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline stargazer777

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RE: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #42 on: 06/07/2007 01:29 am »
I would think that by the time we can actually build and maintain something like that, we should be able to terraform a place like Mars. Terraforming would probably be easier than the space habitats.

 Has anyone read Rendevous with Rama"? It's a great read - I recommend it. Rama is an O'Neill-type space habitat. Fascinating read.

Actually, by the time we start assembling space craft and other large structures in space we will be half  way home toward developing a space-based industrial infrastructure.  Obtaining raw materials launched via mass drivers from the Moon or asteroids to a processing point -- at first probably one of the Lagrange points -- will be a second critical step.  The others will come quickly.  This will begin to happen within our lifetimes.  Habitats are, ultimately, just very big space stations. If the bulk of the mass can be obtained this way that will go most of the way to making these ventures economically feasible.  Initially at least, they don't have to have all the bells and whistles O'Neill imagined -- big lakes, forests, vast farms -- to be totally functional and very pleasant place to live and work for human colonists and their children.  

We will reach this point long before we are in a position to begin significant terra forming of a planet.  Additionally, I think terra forming on a planetary scale is going to prove to be far more difficult and far more complex than we imagine. The time line for meaningful improvements for planets like Mars or Venus could easily be centuries -- and that assumes no catastrophic set-backs.  But, ultimately, only time will tell on these predictions.

Virtually everything by Clarke is excellent.  Thanks for the recommendation.

Offline MKremer

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #43 on: 06/07/2007 02:32 am »
Speaking of terraforming, let's not discount the (sometimes radical) environmentalists who'll try everything legal they're able to, to delay or cancel planetary terraforming plans/financing.

Offline JulesVerneATV

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RE: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #44 on: 06/12/2007 10:11 am »
Some of the Moons of Jupiter like Ganymede or Europa may be more hospitable than Mars, they've got plenty of resources and water unlike Mars which may have water burried deep within.

The only problem with our current technology is getting to places in a certain time, to orbit can be counted in mins/hours, getting to the Moon and back a few days, going to Mars will be 6 months just for a single way trip
but a planet Jupiter may take at least five years.


The Saturn-Titan mission proves Landing something on Callisto or Europa is possible but Keeping an astronaut, feed, active, safe and sane for these years would be a really difficult task

Offline MichaelOve

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #45 on: 06/18/2009 10:48 pm »
I'd think that once you've gotten out of a gravity well, you'd rather stay out, so I agree that some kind of space-habitat would be ideal if you want to preserve your mobility. What I'm curious about (and far too ignorant of the physics involved to gauge this myself) is this: how practical is it to use some type of solar sail or such to capture a comet? It seems like if you're looking for the resources to support yourself in space it's pretty hard to find anything better than the makeup of a typical comet. Also, if you wanted to terraform Mars, what about dropping a few of those captured comets on it to boost the atmosphere? I'm sure it's much more complicated than it seems in my head, so I'm hoping people who know more about these fields can provide me with a bit more information on these matters.

Offline Kaputnik

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #46 on: 06/18/2009 11:34 pm »
Most comets are travelling at something akin to 'ludicrous speed'. Good luck doing a rendezvous with that!
"I don't care what anything was DESIGNED to do, I care about what it CAN do"- Gene Kranz

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #47 on: 06/19/2009 09:36 am »
I think we are talking about a totally artificial environment, as close to enclosed as you can make it, and close to necessary resources.

We need pressure, a temperature between the melting and boiling points of water, protection from radiation, power and access to chemicals of which the most fundamental are hydrogen, oxygen, carbon and nitrogen. Dealing with cold is far easier than dealing with heat. For a large enough enclosed city the problem will always be getting rid of the waste heat, even if you do not have a large nuclear power plant to cool.

I dont think gravity is the big show stopper. There are many options to deal with this, besides which earthlife evolved in the oceans which are basically equivalent to zero g as far as bone-loss etc are concerned.

The space you need for a human to live within is probably not as significant as the acres you need to grow their food.

My conclusion? The future of humanity under the ice, anywhere in the solar system where ice exists, and learning to live in space may be like learning to return to the oceans.

Just think, the only thing a subglacial home does not immediately provide is a place to stand. Add a power source (and its waste heat) and you get everything else for free.

Ice provides good protection from cosmic rays. It is much easier to live below a few meters of ice than spin up a planets core!

Where there is ice there is obviously oxygen and hydrogen. I expect other elements not available on the moon would also exist close at hand.

Ice provides a necessary heat sink. Bury a city or a nuclear power plant  under the ice and it is going to surround itself in a lake of circulating water.

A lake of circulating water is also a very good starting point for your food farm. Humans may not wish to spend all their time swimming but a lot of earth life could be quite at home. Rather than struggling to grow alfalfa under thin domes you aim for an earth ocean environment with everything from plankton to fish to perhaps dolphins.

The pressure on mar's surface is about a hundredth that of earth's, essentially vacuum. However just thirty meters under water on mars pressure is about that at sealevel on earth. If the surface ice were totally fractured then the water would boil, but someone swimming thirty meters below the water would not have to worry for days by which time the surface would probably have refrozen. No living hiding behind air-locks. you could swim from a diving bell home at thirty meters up to mars atmosphere pressure without ever passing through a door.


Offline gospacex

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #48 on: 06/19/2009 12:40 pm »
Spaceport on the summit of Mount Olympus offers quite incredible views from the rim.

Partly underground habitats in the slopes of Valles Marineris do the same. Grand Canyon looks like a small crack in comparison...

Offline khallow

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Re: RE: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #49 on: 06/19/2009 01:54 pm »
Most any place in the solar system where there is a profit to be made you will eventually find human beings.  Now, whether it's a good place to live or not is another matter.  Eventual human colonization of the solar system will go where there's money to be made.  500 years ago, Central Florida was (by modern standards, at least) a miserable place to live and now I call it home--but it's a radically different place than it used to be centuries ago.  The same will probably go for the solar system.  :cool:

This is my view as well. If you and your colony can't make a living (the profit need not be with the outside world, though that probably would help a lot), then it's not going to work in the long term whether it be on an exotic body in the Solar System or on Earth.
Karl Hallowell

Offline winkhomewinkhome

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #50 on: 06/19/2009 04:10 pm »
A nice little house on Picon with Grace Park! :)

Otherwise - One of the moons in the Saturn system would be interesting - like living in Switzerland with the Alps out your back door - imagine waking up to a view of the rings!

Again as mentioned - don't know about radiation, and what about variations of gravity???
Dale R. Winke

Offline GI-Thruster

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #51 on: 06/19/2009 05:36 pm »
Titan is a very nice place and yes, you get that view of the rings.  I'm selling land parcels to anyone interested. . .

Offline Hop_David

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #52 on: 06/19/2009 05:59 pm »
Most comets are travelling at something akin to 'ludicrous speed'. Good luck doing a rendezvous with that!

Not all comets come from the Kuiper or Oort. Outgassing has been detected from mainbelt asteroids: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main-belt_comet

Also it's believed many icey bodies are in the Trojan L4 and L5. Give the disproportionate number of short period comets with 5.2 A.U. apohelions, I'd guess the Trojans are feeding our population of NEOs.


There's an erroneous meme floating around: "All comets have 30 AU or more apohelions and are too fast to rendezvous with" Sadly this meme will continue regardless of obvious counterexamples.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #53 on: 06/19/2009 06:08 pm »
Titan is a very nice place and yes, you get that view of the rings.  I'm selling land parcels to anyone interested. . .

How much?

Offline GI-Thruster

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #54 on: 06/19/2009 06:58 pm »
Depends if you want beachfront.  Just off the beach is much more affordable.

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #55 on: 06/19/2009 07:14 pm »
What about colonies just out side the asteroid belt or even buried inside an asteroid?
Ceres pretty much has just about everything you need and it's surface is supposedly mostly water ice.

Offline William Barton

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #56 on: 06/19/2009 07:26 pm »
I have resisted and resisted, but the imp of the perverse wins: Barsoom. It's those monotreme girls...

Offline gospacex

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #57 on: 06/19/2009 11:39 pm »
What about colonies just out side the asteroid belt or even buried inside an asteroid?
Ceres pretty much has just about everything you need and it's surface is supposedly mostly water ice.

Ceres is pre-stashed ocean in storage for Mars terraforming. Keep your appendages off please.

Offline NUAETIUS

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #58 on: 06/20/2009 02:43 am »
Ceres is pre-stashed ocean in storage for Mars terraforming. Keep your appendages off please.

Spacex the space pirate places Ceres in Martian orbit as Mar's new moon, and let's Mars slowly suck it dry.  You know I would love to see a cgi of a planet like mars sucking a planet let like Ceres dry.

My anser for the best places to live near term would be

1. Earth orbit (easiest access to the only steady stream of food and people)

2. Orbit around another planet (Atmospheric deceleration, possible tether power, microgravity, solar flare protection, possible resources from the planet)

3. Cycler habitat.  Constant stream of new people, and supplies, unbeatable view of the solar system, access to multiple planet's data networks with lower lag)
“It has long been recognized that the formation of a committee is a powerful technique for avoiding responsibility, deferring difficult decisions and averting blame….while at the same time maintaining a semblance of action.” Augustine's Law - Norm Augustine

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #59 on: 06/20/2009 08:55 am »
What about colonies just out side the asteroid belt or even buried inside an asteroid?
Ceres pretty much has just about everything you need and it's surface is supposedly mostly water ice.

Ceres is pre-stashed ocean in storage for Mars terraforming. Keep your appendages off please.

OMG that would be horrific :)

Mars at best would give us another Australia (or Antarctica) of living room. With the effort it would take to move a fraction of ceres to mars, you could convert Ceres into the death star. In fact all it takes is one self sufficient colony capable of building another.

Ceres could probably support a thousand times the population of earth, let alone mars, because you could live throughout its volume, not just a  a scummy layer on its surface. Nor are you limited to its current volume. It would only take 300m/s or so to put something into orbit. The whole world could bloom like a flower as we build continent-sized space solar power collectors in a saturn-like ring around it, but always precessing to face the sun.

To anyone who wants to drop Ceres down a gravity well, Cerians will gladly make a small one-cubic-km donation courtesy of the Ceres magnetic launchers. Not enough for a very large ocean, but plenty to discourage such notions! :)

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