Author Topic: Breakthrough Starshot  (Read 79014 times)

Online MikeAtkinson

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #80 on: 04/14/2016 02:23 pm »
On the problem of getting a signal from the small probe over the light years:

Since they are planning to make lots of those probes anyways, couldn't they just send them one by one, making a trail of them from here to Centauri. That way each probe would only need to be able to get the signal to the one behind it. Enough of the probes and the distance between two of them would become short enough.

Plus, you would get more observations from the multiple flybys that would follow, for as long as you would keep sending the probes so that the distance between the Earth and the last probe sent wouldn't become too long.


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already answered at this page
« Last Edit: 04/14/2016 02:24 pm by MikeAtkinson »

Offline baldusi

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #81 on: 04/14/2016 03:20 pm »
On the problem of getting a signal from the small probe over the light years:

Since they are planning to make lots of those probes anyways, couldn't they just send them one by one, making a trail of them from here to Centauri. That way each probe would only need to be able to get the signal to the one behind it. Enough of the probes and the distance between two of them would become short enough.

Plus, you would get more observations from the multiple flybys that would follow, for as long as you would keep sending the probes so that the distance between the Earth and the last probe sent wouldn't become too long.


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I don't know why they haven't been talking about it, but I read a paper where they used mirrors with an LCD on top on cubesats. They would paint them with a laser, and by switching the LCD (which opaqued the mirror) they would transmit information back. The nice thing is that you only need enough energy to opaque the mirror. At the same time, it would help them gain some altitude back to fight the aero drag.
If they could have a sail material that could get electrically opaque, you could paint them from the Earth, and then read back the modulated reflection back on Earth with a big telescope.
The nice thing is that it would be a lot easier and cheaper to boost the power of an Earth bound laser than to accelerate on to 0.2c. I'm pretty sure that if they can accelerate the craft to 0.2c, then will be supplying a lot more than 1Watt at Alpha Centauri.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #82 on: 04/14/2016 05:49 pm »
I, for one, would like to know own the effect of these lasers on our ozone layer, and on objects in orbit.
It would Ionize it... So most likely help with Ozone production (Especially if they use a UV LASER) and vaporize the debris (helping the orbital debris problem).

So win, win ;)
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Offline Remes

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #83 on: 04/14/2016 06:45 pm »
I just realize how lucky we are, that there was no internet, when Apollo was kicked of.
That would have been a s-storm.

Some of the challenges and possible solutions are listed here: http://www.breakthroughinitiatives.org/Challenges/3

I think it would be helpful if everyone read them first since they covered most of the things discussed above.
Fully agree. These people have put many thoughts into the project. This is far away from being a thoughtless attention-seeking nonsense from some amateurs.

The major design solution seems to be to put everything on a silicon die: computer, camera, thruster, a small RTG, ultracapacitors, use of photonics,...

In regards of waste of money:
The link above contains dozens of links to research papers. Research is done already on every problem which is currently encountered. Money is already spend on all of this topics. Not because they were waiting for starshot, but just because it was in the different areas the next thing to research (long distance communications e.g., that was already done with Laser based space communications. Albeit it was only moon/earth: they would get data out of single photons.). That is how science works: we not necessarily set a specific goal (a product, something usable), but simply research things farther and farther and see, whether something better or completely new comes out of experiments, thoughts, theories and models, etc.

The great thing about this project: It sets a higher goal. It will motivate researchers and focus their forces. It provides more meaning to many research areas.

Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #84 on: 04/15/2016 01:02 am »
When I expressed skepticism for this project and it's technological feasibility on a Space.com announcement feed on Facebook - jeez; you should have seen the feral responses and attacks I got! I was called all sorts of names, most of which have been deleted now. The mildest response I received was folk wondering how the great Professor Hawking could be so wrong and me - the wise and all-knowing 'Matthew Black' could be so right?! I responded "It's not about that; this kind of project and conceptual kite flight is part of how Prof. Hawking makes a living these days".

I conceded that the whole concept is vaguely plausible, but that there would be considerable technical, financial and scheduling challenges to overcome. Not unlike 'Mars One' in that regard!!

This is nothing like Mars One. At the moment it's one rich individual deciding to spend his money on a variety of research projects. TBH how he chooses to spend his personal wealth isn't anyone else's business, he's not taking the money out of your or mine's pockets. No doubt plenty of billionaires spend such money on art or property without the associated online debate about how they chose to spend their wealth.

Of course it's Mr Milner's and others money and free will - I NEVER implied otherwise?!
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #85 on: 04/15/2016 01:25 am »
At the moment it's one rich individual deciding to spend his money on a variety of research projects. TBH how he chooses to spend his personal wealth isn't anyone else's business, he's not taking the money out of your or mine's pockets. No doubt plenty of billionaires spend such money on art or property without the associated online debate about how they chose to spend their wealth.

It's the UK, you can be sure he'll be getting government money eventually (or quit).

Even setting that aside, just because someone is spending their own money doesn't mean we should feel free to let him know he's being foolish.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Star One

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #86 on: 04/15/2016 06:19 am »
At the moment it's one rich individual deciding to spend his money on a variety of research projects. TBH how he chooses to spend his personal wealth isn't anyone else's business, he's not taking the money out of your or mine's pockets. No doubt plenty of billionaires spend such money on art or property without the associated online debate about how they chose to spend their wealth.

It's the UK, you can be sure he'll be getting government money eventually (or quit).

Even setting that aside, just because someone is spending their own money doesn't mean we should feel free to let him know he's being foolish.

Again that just looks like you know better how he should spend his money than the man himself. The guy's hardly some rube when it comes to science and technology.
« Last Edit: 04/15/2016 06:26 am by Star One »

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #87 on: 04/15/2016 07:15 am »
On the problem of getting a signal from the small probe over the light years:

Since they are planning to make lots of those probes anyways, couldn't they just send them one by one, making a trail of them from here to Centauri. That way each probe would only need to be able to get the signal to the one behind it. Enough of the probes and the distance between two of them would become short enough.

Plus, you would get more observations from the multiple flybys that would follow, for as long as you would keep sending the probes so that the distance between the Earth and the last probe sent wouldn't become too long.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't know why they haven't been talking about it, but I read a paper where they used mirrors with an LCD on top on cubesats. They would paint them with a laser, and by switching the LCD (which opaqued the mirror) they would transmit information back. The nice thing is that you only need enough energy to opaque the mirror. At the same time, it would help them gain some altitude back to fight the aero drag.
If they could have a sail material that could get electrically opaque, you could paint them from the Earth, and then read back the modulated reflection back on Earth with a big telescope.
The nice thing is that it would be a lot easier and cheaper to boost the power of an Earth bound laser than to accelerate on to 0.2c. I'm pretty sure that if they can accelerate the craft to 0.2c, then will be supplying a lot more than 1Watt at Alpha Centauri.

If we could paint a spot the size of the 1 gram craft with a laser from Earth and read back whether it's reflecting or not, we wouldn't need the craft at all -- we could directly image all the planets in the system from Earth in far more detail than the tiny camera on such a craft.

In fact, I suspect that this will be the final fate of this project -- it will end up being easier to directly image exoplanets from Earth than to pick up the signal from a tiny spacecraft so far away.  So, even if it eventually proves possible to do, I think it will be made obsolete by better uses of the same technology needed to make it possible.


Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #88 on: 04/15/2016 07:25 am »
Again that just looks like you know better how he should spend his money than the man himself. The guy's hardly some rube when it comes to science and technology.

I for one think it's a clever use of his money.  If he succeeds, he's hailed as visionary genius and goes down in history.  If he fails, he still ends up with a very cool death ray to use for whatever billionaires use death rays for.  Win-win.

Offline vapour_nudge

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #89 on: 04/15/2016 08:39 am »
Yes. He appears to be very clever with his money. After all, didn't he just pledge $100m for SETI as well?

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #90 on: 04/15/2016 08:53 am »
It's the UK, you can be sure he'll be getting government money eventually (or quit).

Even setting that aside, just because someone is spending their own money doesn't mean we should feel free to let him know he's being foolish.
The UK? Would you like to check your geography?

He's Russian.
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #91 on: 04/15/2016 09:49 am »
Try to keep up.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline manboy

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #92 on: 04/15/2016 10:07 am »
Looks interesting. Somewhat skeptical, still looks leagues more credible than Mars One.
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Offline Star One

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #93 on: 04/15/2016 10:54 am »
Looks interesting. Somewhat skeptical, still looks leagues more credible than Mars One.

Precisely. No hyped promises.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #94 on: 04/15/2016 02:03 pm »
Yes. He appears to be very clever with his money. After all, didn't he just pledge $100m for SETI as well?

It's part of the same initiative: it's called Breakthrough Listen. It looks for laser signals as opposed to the more traditional radio signals.
« Last Edit: 04/15/2016 02:08 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #95 on: 04/15/2016 02:05 pm »
At the moment it's one rich individual deciding to spend his money on a variety of research projects. TBH how he chooses to spend his personal wealth isn't anyone else's business, he's not taking the money out of your or mine's pockets. No doubt plenty of billionaires spend such money on art or property without the associated online debate about how they chose to spend their wealth.

It's the UK, you can be sure he'll be getting government money eventually (or quit).

Even setting that aside, just because someone is spending their own money doesn't mean we should feel free to let him know he's being foolish.

He is only doing a proof of concept (under phase 1). But even if he fails, laser sails and other laser technologies are promising technologies that could use the extra R&D funding.
« Last Edit: 04/15/2016 05:28 pm by yg1968 »

Offline Star One

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Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #96 on: 04/18/2016 04:57 pm »
First of a series of wider reports on the Breakthrough Initiatives Conference.

http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=35426
« Last Edit: 04/18/2016 04:58 pm by Star One »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #97 on: 04/19/2016 07:37 am »
In fact, I suspect that this will be the final fate of this project -- it will end up being easier to directly image exoplanets from Earth than to pick up the signal from a tiny spacecraft so far away.  So, even if it eventually proves possible to do, I think it will be made obsolete by better uses of the same technology needed to make it possible.

They're talking about a 1 km˛ optical array for receiving the signals from the spacecraft! If you can build that, no need for sending spacecraft, just use the optical array directly. Having optical arrays in various places in the solar system should get you great resolution.
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Offline savuporo

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #98 on: 04/19/2016 08:15 am »
They're talking about a 1 km˛ optical array for receiving the signals from the spacecraft! If you can build that, no need for sending spacecraft, just use the optical array directly. Having optical arrays in various places in the solar system should get you great resolution.
There is some talk about electronically linked kilometer scale optical interferometers.
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Offline Oli

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Re: Breakthrough Starshot
« Reply #99 on: 04/19/2016 10:46 am »
In fact, I suspect that this will be the final fate of this project -- it will end up being easier to directly image exoplanets from Earth than to pick up the signal from a tiny spacecraft so far away.  So, even if it eventually proves possible to do, I think it will be made obsolete by better uses of the same technology needed to make it possible.

They're talking about a 1 km˛ optical array for receiving the signals from the spacecraft! If you can build that, no need for sending spacecraft, just use the optical array directly. Having optical arrays in various places in the solar system should get you great resolution.

To be fair, direct imaging of exoplanets would require gigantic interferometers for high resolutions. See the image attached. For example for 32km pixels at 10 parsecs (32.6 light years) you need 144km2 of mirrors and a 100k km baseline. On the other hand it would take 196 years to get some data from a starshot probe.

« Last Edit: 04/19/2016 10:49 am by Oli »

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