Author Topic: Dual Orion Mission Possibilities  (Read 32208 times)

Offline Khadgars

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Dual Orion Mission Possibilities
« on: 12/22/2014 11:50 pm »
With recent success of EFT-1, what are some possibilities of dual Orion missions? 

My understanding that two of them together have a mission duration of 4-6 months (please correct me if I am wrong).

Add a small hab in between them,  could be well on our way to a Mars fly-by?
« Last Edit: 12/28/2014 08:52 pm by Khadgars »
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Cherokee43v6

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Re: Duel Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #1 on: 12/23/2014 12:12 am »
I say, are you challenging me to a duel?!?

-Trelaine to Kirk (Star Trek: TOS)
"I didn't open the can of worms...
        ...I just pointed at it and laughed a little too loudly."

Offline HailColumbia

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Re: Duel Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #2 on: 12/23/2014 12:17 am »
Seems like a lot of cost and risk for a mission with little value.  If you are going to send men to mars, don't do a half assed job, bring a lander and accomplish something.
-Steve

Offline Khadgars

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Re: Duel Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #3 on: 12/23/2014 01:17 am »
Seems like a lot of cost and risk for a mission with little value.  If you are going to send men to mars, don't do a half assed job, bring a lander and accomplish something.

I quite disagree.  Getting and landing on Mars are two very different and complex problems.  Solve getting there and back first before landing.
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing - Thomas Jefferson

Offline HailColumbia

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Re: Duel Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #4 on: 12/23/2014 02:05 am »
We really don't need to "Apollo 8" Mars. There are few unknowns. All this mission would prove is that A: Orion won't break after years in space (don't really need a crew for this) and B: Radiation won't kill the crew.   You can measure radiation that penetrates the hull without actually having a crew on board, and the effects are more or less understood anyway.
-Steve

Offline sdsds

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Re: Duel Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #5 on: 12/23/2014 06:48 am »
I think the key "departure point" mission to consider for dual (not duel) Orions is the one Lockheed-Martin has proposed, called "Plymouth Rock: An Early Human Asteroid Mission Using Orion."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/sbag/meetings/sbag2/presentations/PlymouthRockasteroidmission.pdf

Presented to the Small Bodies Assessment Group
November 2009
Josh Hopkins, Adam Dissel
Lockheed Martin Space Systems Company
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Online Chandonn

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Re: Duel Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #6 on: 12/23/2014 02:05 pm »
Perhaps a "dual" Orion mission would be a better idea...

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Duel Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #7 on: 12/23/2014 07:26 pm »
With recent success of EFT-1, what are some possibilities of duel Orion missions? 

My understanding that two of them together have a mission duration of 4-6 months (please correct me if I am wrong).

As designed an Orion can keep a crew of four comfortable and alive for 21 days.  Not sure how it changes to 4-6 months just because a second one is added (which I'm assuming has no crew of it's own).

Quote
Add a small hab in between them,  could be well on our way to a Mars fly-by?

That's pretty much what Inspiration Mars is suggesting, but it's too "simple" for NASA to do, and would likely only allow nothing more than just a flyby mission.  And while that would be historic just from the standpoint that it would be a first, I'm not sure there is enough "value" in doing that.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Waz_Met_Jou

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Re: Duel Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #8 on: 12/23/2014 07:57 pm »
As designed an Orion can keep a crew of four comfortable and alive for 21 days.  Not sure how it changes to 4-6 months just because a second one is added (which I'm assuming has no crew of it's own).
Two Orions with a crew of two would be able to stay in space for 84 days. But that assumes we don't add anything to the life support of the vehicle, while it's possible to add enough additional water and oxygen tanks to increase on orbit duration to 180 days, possibly even 210 days. We could also replace one of the Orions with Lockheed's proposed Orion Deep Space Vehicle, which would be a relatively affordable and near term option, and would allow a crew of three instead of two for 180/210 days in deep space.

Offline Bob Shaw

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Re: Duel Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #9 on: 12/23/2014 11:57 pm »
Actually, the Deep Space Orion strikes me as being about the first *sensible* aspect of Orion I've heard of. Using Orion as a Gemini/Big G precursor and with the baseline Orion as a dumb standard interplanetary re-entry vehicle *almost* makes sense. Perhaps not quite, but if we're going back to a Soviet-style incremental development process (think Soyuz/Salyut/Mir/ISS) then I'm all for it.
« Last Edit: 12/23/2014 11:58 pm by Bob Shaw »

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Duel Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #10 on: 12/24/2014 01:00 am »
Actually, the Deep Space Orion strikes me as being about the first *sensible* aspect of Orion I've heard of. Using Orion as a Gemini/Big G precursor and with the baseline Orion as a dumb standard interplanetary re-entry vehicle *almost* makes sense. Perhaps not quite, but if we're going back to a Soviet-style incremental development process (think Soyuz/Salyut/Mir/ISS) then I'm all for it.
I know what you are saying Bob by building upon existing designs we would have evolved Apollo perhaps. On the other hand Russia seems to follow Zeno's Paradox of increments since they never have sent humans beyond LEO so I don't exactly by into their philosophy...

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/paradox-zeno/
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Offline savuporo

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Re: Duel Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #11 on: 12/24/2014 06:32 am »
Perhaps a "dual" Orion mission would be a better idea...
'Tis but a scratch.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Khadgars

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Re: Dual Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #12 on: 12/28/2014 08:56 pm »
As designed an Orion can keep a crew of four comfortable and alive for 21 days.  Not sure how it changes to 4-6 months just because a second one is added (which I'm assuming has no crew of it's own).
Two Orions with a crew of two would be able to stay in space for 84 days. But that assumes we don't add anything to the life support of the vehicle, while it's possible to add enough additional water and oxygen tanks to increase on orbit duration to 180 days, possibly even 210 days. We could also replace one of the Orions with Lockheed's proposed Orion Deep Space Vehicle, which would be a relatively affordable and near term option, and would allow a crew of three instead of two for 180/210 days in deep space.

Very interesting.  Orion Deep Space Vehicle seems very viable.

Edit: Changed duel to dual  :o
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing - Thomas Jefferson

Offline dks13827

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Re: Dual Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #13 on: 12/29/2014 12:35 am »
I heard Josh Hopkins give a detailed presentation about such a dual Orion mission and he certainly thought it could be feasible.  I say again, could be. The rationale for this was to fly such a mission sooner, with no new module being necessary.   I would think that initially a 205 day mission would be better than the 400 day missions that I have seen proposed.  Just a thought, though.  I also would suggest that guys like us should enthusiastically support any BEO mission that has a chance to go out there !  I certainly will.  When they begin to actually plan some missions or a mission,  I think this proposal by LM would be considered.  As I recall 2 of the issues that were mentioned were  1.  180 days of food for 2 astronauts could be carried, according to the study.  2.   Carrying a lot of  trash and waste in there was a concern.  The rationale of this was:  a simple approach, no new module expense,  good redundancy which in the end may be crucial to such a plan.  And it could fly sooner rather than later.  The longer that flights and missions get delayed gives more opportunity for the space flight haters to kill the program.  Let's understand that the first deep space mission lasting for months is no small undertaking.   Lots of risk there.
« Last Edit: 12/30/2014 04:19 pm by dks13827 »

Offline Proponent

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Re: Dual Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #14 on: 12/29/2014 04:05 am »
So what happened to the dual-Orion concept?  What killed it?

Offline Bob Shaw

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Re: Dual Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #15 on: 12/30/2014 01:28 am »
So what happened to the dual-Orion concept?  What killed it?

Yes, do tell!

The idea of Soyuz-like evolution is pretty compelling; all of the US projects (bar Mercury) have utterly failed in terms of passing on their experience to successor projects, for whatever reason. Fine, if the evolutionary process is one of dramatic forward leaps, but can we really say that? Oh, I forgot: a Gemini door on Skylab. Wow.

In the meantime, the Russians do micro-improvements time and time again to a vehicle which first flew Vladimir Komarov in 1967.

I despair.

Offline llanitedave

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Re: Dual Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #16 on: 12/30/2014 01:32 am »
Just doesn't seem like a very efficient use of mass/volume.  If only one of the Orions is the launch-return crew carrier, then the conical shape, independent RCS and heat shield of the second Orion is a waste of both mass and volume.  Do they intend to return both of them for refurbishment and reuse?  Does each one need its own service module?

It just seems to me that a dedicated habitat module, cylindrical or spherical, would be far more economical and practical in a deep space mission.
"I've just abducted an alien -- now what?"

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Dual Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #17 on: 12/30/2014 08:14 am »
For extra space a BEAM can be attached to the Orion.  Discard during reentry.

From ~2017 a Bigelow B330 is a possibility for the second vehicle.  A mass of 20 tons with an internal area of 330 m3.  Consumables extra.

Offline Proponent

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Re: Dual Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #18 on: 12/30/2014 03:15 pm »
Just doesn't seem like a very efficient use of mass/volume.  If only one of the Orions is the launch-return crew carrier, then the conical shape, independent RCS and heat shield of the second Orion is a waste of both mass and volume.  Do they intend to return both of them for refurbishment and reuse?  Does each one need its own service module?

It just seems to me that a dedicated habitat module, cylindrical or spherical, would be far more economical and practical in a deep space mission.

I agree a second Orion would be inefficient from an engineering viewpoint.  It might offer two big advantages, though.  The key one is eliminating the need for a third (after Orion and SLS) development program:  a NASA-style hab module seems likely to be a $10-billion project.  At plausible funding levels, one might hope to get that $10 billion at the rate of $1 billion a year, meaning that the Orion and SLS would be kept on line for 10 years at $2 billion or so per year -- a total of $20 billion -- while the hab is developed.  So, in effect, it's a $30-billion proposition (all figures very rough, obviously).

The second advantage is that dual Orions provide a very high degree of redundancy, which would seem a particularly good thing on the first deep-space missions.

I'm not saying the dual-Orion approach is good; it just seems to me it may be the way to make the best of a bad situation (Congress insisting on Orion and SLS but not the budget to use them effectively).

But the BEAM approach would seem to make more sense, IF the Congress-industrial complex could be induced to use that much non-NASA hardware.

Offline Khadgars

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Re: Dual Orion Mission Possibilities
« Reply #19 on: 12/31/2014 12:17 am »
Agreed Proponent.

Trying to see how this could fit into actual missions I've come up with the following;

EM-1: 2018 - non-crew Orion
EM-2: 2021 - first crewed Orion (21 days)
EM-3: 2023 - 100 day dual-Orion mission in lunar orbit
EM-4: 2025 - ARM

That gives a good filler mission between first crewed Orion and ARM, allows for initial testing of long duration BLEO missions and throws a small bone to lunar crowd  8)

Not saying thats how it will play out, but if something similar happens that's not a bad start to BLEO missions within the constraints we are working in.
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing - Thomas Jefferson

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