alexterrell - 11/4/2008 3:29 AMHow about technology testing machines? Testing ISRU, lunar diggers, solar towers, etc.Are any plans on the drawing board?What should the first NASA mission be doing?What would be used to launch the first mission?Given the planning length of these missions, shouldn't these be starting about now?
Nullset - 16/4/2008 11:09 AMI just read about the idea of sending chimps to Mars before trying to colonize it with humans. It seems like an obvious prelude, despite PETA's objections to it. However, we're ages away from sending enough people to Mars to colonize. Has anyone looked into sending a group of chimps on a one way trip to the Moon and see how our nearest cousins react to long term life in 1/6 of Earth's gravity? There's really no point in building "transportation system" grade rockets if we can never live there in the first place.
iamlucky13 - 17/4/2008 5:51 PMI believe, however, the Mars Gravity Biosatellite is still progressing, and may eventually get launched.http://www.marsgravity.org/main/
Jim - 14/4/2008 7:44 PMQuotealexterrell - 11/4/2008 3:29 AMHow about technology testing machines? Testing ISRU, lunar diggers, solar towers, etc.Are any plans on the drawing board?What should the first NASA mission be doing?What would be used to launch the first mission?Given the planning length of these missions, shouldn't these be starting about now?the need for those are still years away
iamlucky13 - 18/4/2008 4:44 PMAre ISRU missions necessary precursors, however? Will they have a major effect on the ISRU experiments a crewed mission would conduct?Constellation isn't dependent on ISRU, so are the benefits of dedicated ISRU robotic missions worth the costs compared to waiting until you've got human hands to operate them?
alexterrell - 21/4/2008 6:17 PMAt what point do the activities in this program feed into the main program? A descent plan might show NASA needs the research now.
A_M_Swallow - 21/4/2008 5:31 PMQuotealexterrell - 21/4/2008 6:17 PMAt what point do the activities in this program feed into the main program? A descent plan might show NASA needs the research now.IMHO. Second unmanned lunar ascent from the Moon.The first ascent can be fuelled using propellant sent from Earth. Keep things simple by separating testing the rocket from testing the ISRU.
kraisee - 22/4/2008 3:02 AMCreating an industrial capacity for turning lunar regolith into highly refined and pure rocket propellant is going to cost more than $1bn. You're probably talking at least that just to land the minimum necessary hardware on the lunar surface in the first place!
kraisee - 21/4/2008 9:02 PMCreating an industrial capacity for turning lunar regolith into highly refined and pure rocket propellant is going to cost more than $1bn. You're probably talking at least that just to land the minimum necessary hardware on the lunar surface in the first place!ISRU is going to have to offer a much better cost benefit than just refueling a handful of crew ascent stages each year before its going to be worthwhile.* * *The break-even point is a lot higher than most people seem to believe.Ross.
Its actually a lot harder than you'd believe to even make an economical case for Lunar ISRU powering a reusable lander and a cycle-taxi vehicle between Earth and Lunar orbits. The cost to develop the reusable hardware *and keep it maintained to a sufficiently high safety standard* is higher than the cost savings for the launchers.
A_M_Swallow - 22/4/2008 4:04 PMElectrically powered remote controlled bulldozers, diggers, drills and repair robots may be needed to make the holes and cover the roof. This can be performed in advance of the astronauts arriving for their 6 months stay.
Jim - 23/4/2008 3:02 AMQuoteA_M_Swallow - 22/4/2008 4:04 PMElectrically powered remote controlled bulldozers, diggers, drills and repair robots may be needed to make the holes and cover the roof. This can be performed in advance of the astronauts arriving for their 6 months stay.which aren't going to be used on the outpost
A_M_Swallow - 23/4/2008 10:06 AMQuoteJim - 23/4/2008 3:02 AMQuoteA_M_Swallow - 22/4/2008 4:04 PMElectrically powered remote controlled bulldozers, diggers, drills and repair robots may be needed to make the holes and cover the roof. This can be performed in advance of the astronauts arriving for their 6 months stay.which aren't going to be used on the outpostThe boots and flag missions to the Moon have already been performed. It would be a waste of time and money to repeat them. Any future mission has to do a lot more and do it without killing the astronauts..
mike robel - 23/4/2008 8:24 AMPrecursor missions to the moon should include1. High Quality orbital reconaissance craft on the order of MRO in polar orbit, possibly including impactors to stir up the lunar surface for spectroscopic examination.2. Communication satellites positioned such that there is no signal black out for craft on the far side of the moon.3. Not a mission, but a determination as to whether or not any of the Apollo landing sites should be revisited.4. Surface reconaissance craft (stationary and mobile) targeted at the locations identified as promising from orbital recon.4a. These craft should carry locators to aid in high precision landings and various experiments, including ISRU or to ID water deposits.4b. Possible sample return missions from final landing sites.5. Land manned missions for medium length reconaissane forays (~ 2 weeks).6. Evaluate results and figure out what to do next. periodically manned science outpost, permanent manned science outpost, skip Moon and go to Mars?
Jim - 23/4/2008 3:20 PMThe missions aren't boots and flag missions, they are scouting missions. Next are outposts and not bases.
A_M_Swallow - 23/4/2008 12:02 PMQuoteJim - 23/4/2008 3:20 PMThe missions aren't boots and flag missions, they are scouting missions. Next are outposts and not bases.You do not need an Ares-V and astronauts to deliver a rover weighting less than 300 lbs to the Moon.http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/projects/haughton_fieldThese are thinly disguised boots and flag missions.
Jim - 23/4/2008 5:24 PMStill doesn't change the FACT that early missions will just be landers and habits. No Electrically powered remote controlled bulldozers, diggers, drills and repair robots. When are you going to understand that they are not in the plans
A_M_Swallow - 23/4/2008 8:41 PMQuoteJim - 23/4/2008 5:24 PMStill doesn't change the FACT that early missions will just be landers and habits. No Electrically powered remote controlled bulldozers, diggers, drills and repair robots. When are you going to understand that they are not in the plansPlans change.
kraisee - 23/4/2008 4:01 PMJim is totally correct. There is nothing in the current manifest of more than a dozen landings which has anything at all to do with Lunar ISRU.More importantly than that though - there is going to be no cash available to even start developing Lunar ISRU before 2025 at the earliest. Ares sucks up all the funding through 2020, and the initial sortie missions and outpost landings suck up the rest for the next half decade.At that point Mars will take over, so I don't even see it happening then - and ISRU will not be Lunar, it will be Martian then.The *only* Lunar ISRU we can hope to afford to develop in the current plans is a 'standard' probe mission. Typical budget for such a thing is usually ~$300m including the launch vehicle. Think Mars Rover with a small drill. That's all we're likely to see under the current plans before about 2030 in the vein of Lunar ISRU.And no, I don't think this is a good approach. It's why I argue so strongly for a different approach.Ross.
A_M_Swallow - 22/4/2008 3:04 PMISRU Moon technology may have to be developed that does not use hydrogen or carbon (0). Or only extremely tiny amounts.Electrically powered remote controlled bulldozers, diggers, drills and repair robots may be needed to make the holes and cover the roof. This can be performed in advance of the astronauts arriving for their 6 months stay.
Jim - 23/4/2008 9:07 PMQuoteA_M_Swallow - 23/4/2008 8:41 PMQuoteJim - 23/4/2008 5:24 PMStill doesn't change the FACT that early missions will just be landers and habits. No Electrically powered remote controlled bulldozers, diggers, drills and repair robots. When are you going to understand that they are not in the plansPlans change.They still won't include the above. ESAS is the plan. Until ARES V and LSAM go away, the above are not in the plan. The above is less likely to happen in the early missions than Orion being canceled or Direct being adopted. So discussions concerning electrically powered remote controlled bulldozers, diggers, drills and repair robots show be under Advance Concepts and not "NASA CEV / CLV / CaLV / MTV / Alternatives"
A_M_Swallow - 23/4/2008 9:06 AMQuoteJim - 23/4/2008 3:02 AMQuoteA_M_Swallow - 22/4/2008 4:04 PMElectrically powered remote controlled bulldozers, diggers, drills and repair robots may be needed to make the holes and cover the roof. This can be performed in advance of the astronauts arriving for their 6 months stay.which aren't going to be used on the outpostThe boots and flag missions to the Moon have already been performed. It would be a waste of time and money to repeat them. Any future mission has to do a lot more and do it without killing the astronauts.Weight restrictions will prevent more than trivial radiation shielding being sent from the Earth.The same machines used for burying the building can be used for test mining.
Jim - 23/4/2008 9:20 AMQuoteA_M_Swallow - 23/4/2008 10:06 AMQuoteJim - 23/4/2008 3:02 AMQuoteA_M_Swallow - 22/4/2008 4:04 PMElectrically powered remote controlled bulldozers, diggers, drills and repair robots may be needed to make the holes and cover the roof. This can be performed in advance of the astronauts arriving for their 6 months stay.which aren't going to be used on the outpostThe boots and flag missions to the Moon have already been performed. It would be a waste of time and money to repeat them. Any future mission has to do a lot more and do it without killing the astronauts..The missions aren't boots and flag missions, they are scouting missions. Next are outposts and not bases.Electrically powered remote controlled bulldozers, diggers, drills and repair robots are not in the picture
A_M_Swallow - 23/4/2008 9:02 AMQuoteJim - 23/4/2008 3:20 PMThe missions aren't boots and flag missions, they are scouting missions. Next are outposts and not bases.You do not need an Ares-V and astronauts to deliver a rover weighting less than 300 lbs to the Moon.http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/projects/haughton_fieldThese are thinly disguised boots and flag missions.
A_M_Swallow - 29/4/2008 10:03 PMProject Constellation is operating on a totally different scale from the Mars Science Laboratory (MSL). These machines would be part of the manned landings rather than instead of - their first job should be building the base for the people..
A_M_Swallow - 29/4/2008 11:13 PMCalling the moon base a Lunar Outpost only hides the problems like radiation, it does not eliminate them.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_outpost_%28NASA%29http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_the_MoonSee the Mars Transfer Vehicle threads for the sort of protection against solar and cosmic radiation needed.From the Chambers 21st Century Dictionaryoutpost - noun 1 military a group of soldiers stationed at a distance from the main body, especially to protect it from a surprise attack. 2 a distant or remote settlement or branch.
Jim - 30/4/2008 12:24 PMIt does not "hide" anything and you just disqualified yourself by quoting wikipedia.
A_M_Swallow - 30/4/2008 1:53 PMQuoteJim - 30/4/2008 12:24 PMIt does not "hide" anything and you just disqualified yourself by quoting wikipedia. If the best argument that you can come up with is the other person is using wikipedia then you lose.http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/163896main_LAT_GES_1204.pdfFor those who want to see the NASA power point.
A_M_Swallow - 29/4/2008 10:03 PMProject Constellation is operating on a totally different scale from the Mars Science Laboratory (MSL). These machines would be part of the manned landings rather than instead of - their first job should be building the base for the people.
A_M_Swallow - 1/5/2008 7:15 PMSince we are taking about a prediction either manual assembly or remote controlled digging can still be chosen. Since the construction equipment does not need an ascent stage developing the buildings can be in place before the people arrive.