NASASpaceFlight.com Forum
International Space Flight (ESA, Russia, China and others) => Chinese Launchers => Topic started by: Phillip Clark on 09/22/2008 06:20 pm
-
I have been speculating about how we could se the unmanned Shenzhou 8 and Shenzhou 9 docked, with the manned Shenzhou 10 coming along and docking with this assembly. There are various references to the space lab having two docking ports, but only one is visible in the most common representation which has a Shenzhou (orbital module sans solar panels) coming up to dock.
However, before this video sequence was released, there was a photograph of a mock-up space lab which is clearly in two sections. Look at the smaller-diameter section on the right-hand side and there is evidence of a docking unit there. This might sem to confirm my earlier speculations that a 3.35 metres diameter module might be launched pretty-well iert apart from attitude-control thrusters and propellant and then the propulsion module would be launched separately. The second module has more in common with the diameter of the Shenzhou spacecraft, which is why I have speculated that it could be attached to a Shenzhou service/propulsion module for the rendezvous and docking with the main space lab. That accounts for the docking post which we cannot see on the assembled station. Then along comes Shenzhou 10, 11, whatever with its crew, docking at the opposite end of the large diameter module.
Thoughts? Rebuttals?
-
Ooops, the top picture of my posting above isn't the intended one! If the technology works this time, the intended picture is below ......
-
Hi Phil,
This video has a LOT of different configurations for the Chinese spacelabs of the future.
How accurate is it ? Depends on if you trust the video, but it is claimed to be from CNSA
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qbC9YEGEPMI&feature=related
-
Fascinating material - there were some representations which I had not seen before. I had always thought that the representations of the larger modular space station was simply ISS reconstructions with Chinese flags added and Shenzhou replaceing the shuttle orbiter and Soyuz spacecraft! Of course, it is believable that any space station modules will be cylindrical and thus like those developed by the Soviets/Russians and United States - one cylinder is much like another from the outside!
[Oh, I love that image of the Apollo lunar rover with the Chinese flag next to it!!!]
But I think that the station which I have depicted is the interim one to be used before the CZ-5 makes its debut. Only then will we start to see something approaching Mir. We shall see ......... I love speculating about something and the Chinese coming out with something to contradict it within days!!!
-
Here's another graphic of a space laboratory that has something on the bottom that appears to be a docking port? airlock? Or maybe it's just earth orbservation sensors?
Here's a link to the webpage where I found the graphic (http://ido.thethirdmedia.com/article/frame.aspx?turl=http%3a//ido.3mt.com.cn/article/200802/show912602c30p1.xxxx&rurl=&title=%u6211%u56FD%u7684%u7A7A%u95F4%u5B9E%u9A8C%u5BA4%28%u56FE%29_%u5BFC%u5F39%u6253%u536B%u661F%u2014%u2014%u4E2D%u7F8E%u5728%u5916%u5C42%u7A7A%u95F4%u7684%u8F83%u91CF%20---%20ido.3mt.com.cn)
-
How accurate is it ? Depends on if you trust the video, but it is claimed to be from CNSA
Hi spaceamillion,
Don't think it is accurate or from official source. Some modules are too large to current LVs. Mostly I saw insignia of CAST, not CNSA, on Chinese vehicles.
-
Here are two more graphics of a Shenzhou docked with the small space lab. In the first picture the object close to the interface between the large and small diameter modules looks to be more like a window or sensor port than a docking port. The second picture is rather more science fiction than normal because it shows a Shenzhou (with solar panels on the orbital module!) docked at the back of the smaller diameter module where no other illustration shows a docking port: I think that someone has seen too many Salyut 6/7 pictures when generating that model!
-
Babelfish translation of a Xinhua article published today:
The beautiful intermediary said that the god eight god nine gods ten become the company the Chinese space station
on September 23, 2008 10:27: 13 origins: Round the world Times
According to the US "Outer space Daily paper" the website on 22nd reported that the other day some media reported said Shenzhou the seventh airship are China constructs space station's start, but the fact is not true. After the Shenzhou seven airships are only then hopeful launch China's space station construction work.
"Outer space Daily paper" the website reported that the Chinese space station will construct first step will be launches one small “the spacelab”, this was Shenzhou eight. The god eight contours differ from with the Shenzhou series airship before this.
This spacelab by two connects in the together cylinder composes, is slightly small, but also has two to the connection as well as a pair of solar cell board.
After god eights, pilotless Shenzhou nine will launch the lift-off and with it docking. Finally, Shenzhou ten will embark 3 astronauts to lift off, and with god eight god nine docking. These three airships in the same place, have formed a small space station.
The report said that entire outer space construction task will possibly start in 2010, but also has some reports saying that in 2009 will start.
-
Phil
You idea certainly has merit and ties up a number of loose ends.
When I first saw the picture of the spacelab mockup, I asumed that the two sections were separated to allow access to the crew compartment, but in hindsight, this doesn't make a lot of sense.
I've always thought that the Orbital Module had a role as a Progress-type vehicle, providing orbital reboost and consumables resupply to the spacelab. If not, then seems a lot of development effort to make a free-flying OM. What for?
Only downside I see is that the spacelab graphics all seem to make the two sections look integrated and not docked, but this may just be artistic license to disguise the assembly idea.
if the idea is correct, does Shenzhou 10 leave its OM behind, with Shenzhou 9's OM being jettisoned? So each sucessive manned Shenzhou visitor docking at alternate ports?
-
Rather than think in numbers, let's call the two components of the space lab Part A and Part B. I see Part A being launched first and it is the main 3.35 metres diameter section. From Chinese information, when not carrying the heavy escape system, the CZ-2F can orbit about 8.5 tonnes, so Part A could be quite heavy on its own.
I then see Part B being launched: this could be either the service/propulsion module on its own or it could be attached to a Shenzhou propulsion system - like the way a Progress propulsion system delivered ISS/Pirs to the ISS. Again, the CZ-2F does not need an escape tower, abort stabilisers or associated rockets on the shroud, although the assembly will probably be encased in something like the payload shroud which we know and love.
When docked with Part A, the Shenzhou propulsion system separates and could then be de-orbited - or simply perform a phasing manoeuvre away from the space lab. Then all is ready for Shenzhou 10 with its three crew members.
One possibility is that Part A could remain in orbit and new Part Bs launched as necessary, rather than developing in-orbit refuelling as the Russians have done with Progress.
I agree that the animations of the space lab do not show a clearly-defined "join" between my Part A and Part B modules - but the ground mock-up does raise the probability that they are separately-launched modules.
As for the Shenzhou orbital modules ........... ever since I saw the animations for docking missions and the EVA mission it was clear that Shenzhou's orbital module would not be carrying solar panels or be capable or independent flight after separating from the returning spacecraft. So why develop this technology and then throw it away? A mystery which makes no sense to me.
Note - even the animation of a Shenzhou docking with a previously-discarded orbital module shows that the complete Shenzhou is not carrying solar panels on its orbital module, althought they are on the docking target.
A final thought. If this scenario is right then China will be the third space nation to develop the ability to perform automatic dockings in orbit: the Russians, of course, were the first in 1967 and the Europe with the ATV docking unmanned with ISS earlier this year. Japan and the US have done some automatic docking experiments but cheated by launching both craft on the same rocket and not separating them by more than a few metres!
-
Japan and the US have done some automatic docking experiments but cheated by launching both craft on the same rocket and not separating them by more than a few metres!
Just a nitpick with this last statement: Orbital Express (I suppose those were the US craft you were referring to) did separate more than a few meters: in fact they separated several kilometers and under various light and background conditions. I think it's pretty clear US technology would currently allow automated dockings.
Great discussion nevertheless, it's great to read these ongoing analyses about Chinese missions :)
-
Just a nitpick with this last statement: Orbital Express (I suppose those were the US craft you were referring to) did separate more than a few meters: in fact they separated several kilometers and under various light and background conditions.
Maybe it's me, but I think that launching the two craft on the same rocket is a slight cheat!
-
Maybe it's me, but I think that launching the two craft on the same rocket is a slight cheat!
Well, maybe it's not a "pure" rendezvous, but the proximity operations, based on the sats' relative positions and not on orbital maneuvering, is the critical path in automated docking. Launch, orbit insertion and orbital maneuvering risks are another part of the equation; what makes docking difficult is finding the target in space (once the orbit and phasing has been achieved, something any sat by definition has to do), getting close to it safely, rendezvous and dock keeping attitude control and stack integrity.
I would agree however, that Russia and, some distance behind, Europe, have demonstrated automated docking to greater extents. And they are the only ones to have demonstrated manrated automated docking.
-
More stuff energing on this forum about the future plans. To summarise:
"According to media report in Hong Kong
The Chinese Space Lab will be assembled in the timeframe 2010-2015
After Shenzhou 8,9(unmanned),10(manned) under the accelerated schedule"
"China will launch Tiangong-1, 2, 3 spacecraft between 2010 and 2015. TG-1 will be the docking target (probably a modified OM) and TG-2 and 3 will be the 8t class mini-station, or the Spacelab. There will be two unmanned vehicles (SZ-8 and 9) and 5 manned ships to visit these TGs during this period."
Wheras we seem to have been seeing Shenzhou 8 as the mini-spacestation, it now appears that there will be an unmanned docking test between S8 and S9, then a manned docking between S8 and S10.
After that the spacestation (Tiangong) build up begins. If there are to be 5 manned ships "during this period" and 1 is S10, that would imply 1 visit per year to the spacestation.
-
Is anyone aware of the proposed mating mechanism used in the Chinese Docking System?
From the graphics it seems to flip from the Russian Docking System [RDS] to the equally Russian: Androgynous Peripheral Attach System [APAS].
Will they be using KURS docking system? Have ESA passed on their laser optical upgrade?
To add my 0.02$ to the general level of supposition concerning Project 921
I would suggest that the Shenzhou Orbital Module "guidao cang" has, to date, had a multi-purpose test function.
Last mission (SZ6): Autonomous Station prototype?
This mission (SZ7): Airlock module prototype??
Subsequent missions: could the OM be a parallel development of the ATV with both male and female RDS ports?
Thus each crewed mission has the possibility of adding another specialised mini-module to the Core station module!
FWIIW and pure speculation but a synthesis of Russian technology and Chinese ingenuity?
-
The descent module doesn't use a docking interface with the OM.
-
This one is much bigger than the Shenzhou spacecraft(which can be seen at the right side), this suggests it won't be SZ-8 or SZ-9
Besides CZ-2F has a limited capacity of ~8-9tonnes to LEO
It should be the "20 tonnes class spacelab" called "Tiangong-1"(palace in the sky, and the name comes from Chinese legend)
It will be launched after 2010 by the new LOx/Kerosene launcher (CZ-5) from Hainan WenChang new spaceport
Besides SZ-8/9/10 are technology demonstrator rather than formal spacelab
there is also plan to assemble Mir type permanently manned large space station before 2020
-
This one is much bigger than the Shenzhou spacecraft(which can be seen at the right side), this suggests it won't be SZ-8 or SZ-9
Besides CZ-2F has a limited capacity of ~8-9tonnes to LEO
It should be the "20 tonnes class spacelab" called "Tiangong-1"(palace in the sky, and the name comes from Chinese legend)
It will be launched after 2010 by the new LOx/Kerosene launcher (CZ-5) from Hainan WenChang new spaceport
Besides SZ-8/9/10 are technology demonstrator rather than formal spacelab
there is also plan to assemble Mir type permanently manned large space station before 2020
TG-1 is not the 20t class station. It will simply be a docking target, or could be a prototype Spacelab, to be visited by Shenzhou 8,9,10 within 2 years. While TG-2 and 3, the working Spacelabs, are to be launched by 2015 and to be visited by 4 Shenzhous (probably 2 each). All TGs will be 8t class and will be launched by CZ-2F/G, an improved CZ-2F model. China will completed a long duration manned(if not permanently manned), modular space station by 2020. The bottom line is to launch the core module (20t class) by 2020.
-
So, we can have...
2010 - Launch TG-1 by CZ-2F/G; launch SZ-8 and SZ-9 by CZ-2F (?). SZ-8 and SZ-9 manned missions?
TG-1 to be used until 2015 (a visit by ZS-10) when...
2015 - Launch TG-2 by CZ-2F/G; launch SZ-11 and SZ-12
2018 - Launch TG-3
2020 - Launch of core module of 20t modular space station
Can we have a scenario like this?
Some sources say that the next manned chinese flight will be SZ-10 in 2010. So, before we will have the unmanned missions of SZ-8 and SZ-9 to dock in orbit. If SZ-10 is going to dock with the mini-lab SZ-8/SZ-9, I just don't understand the timetable of the TG-1 launch.
-
According to official report today, TG-1 will be launched at end of 2010 or 2011, followed by SZ-8, 9, 10 within 2 years. And according to the official Chinese Manned space Program site revealed earlier, TG-2 and 3, as well as another 4 manned ships will be launched by 2015. The announced TG-1 life is two years. So it is reasonable to assume TG-2 and 3 will have same lifespan. Then, let me have a prediction: TG-2 launched in 2012, followed by SZ-11 and 12 in 2012 and 2013; TG-3 launched in 2014, followed by SZ-13 and 14 in 2014 and 2015. Of course, actual launches will most likely have some delays.
-
According to official report today, TG-1 will be launched at end of 2010 or 2011, followed by SZ-8, 9, 10 within 2 years. And according to the official Chinese Manned space Program site revealed earlier, TG-2 and 3, as well as another 4 manned ships will be launched by 2015. The announced TG-1 life is two years. So it is reasonable to assume TG-2 and 3 will have same lifespan. Then, let me have a prediction: TG-2 launched in 2012, followed by SZ-11 and 12 in 2012 and 2013; TG-3 launched in 2014, followed by SZ-13 and 14 in 2014 and 2015. Of course, actual launches will most likely have some delays.
Does this mean SZ 8 and 9 are simply unmanned ships to test docking, or will they leave their OM's as parts of the station?
And as a matter of curiousity; which 'official Chinese Manned space Program site' do you mean?
-
Does this mean SZ 8 and 9 are simply unmanned ships to test docking, or will they leave their OM's as parts of the station?
And as a matter of curiousity; which 'official Chinese Manned space Program site' do you mean?
1. Yes, they will simply test docking.
2. http://www.cmse.gov.cn/
-
We're looking at two separate 'space station' designs, one a Shenzhou-sized vehicle (~8 tons), the other a Salyut-class vehicle (~18 tons). Since the CZ-5 heavy booster won't even begin flight tests until 2011-2, then is Tiangong the 'small' variant, and if so, how much life support can it really carry for even a minimal (2-man) crew on an extended duration mission?
-
Hi Phil,
This video has a LOT of different configurations for the Chinese spacelabs of the future.
How accurate is it ? Depends on if you trust the video, but it is claimed to be from CNSA
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qbC9YEGEPMI&feature=related
Some still pictures of the Shenzhou and spacelab here: http://js360.bolaa.com/forum/blogtopic_5692860_17968.html
It looks like this depiction shows two docking ports on the spacelab. Might an unmanned docking by Shenzhou be a way to deploy an EVA airlock by leaving the OM? This would enable the original lab to be devoted to science/life support systems and free up the Shenzhou OM for use during the expected multiple day trek between launch and docking, analogous to the Soyuz docking profile.
Another point; SZ uses its own engines to circulize orbit after launch. As it doesn't look like the spacelab is equipped with large engines, will an adapted, more powerfull CZ2F be used to launch it?
-
I find that last image VERY credible for this reason. One of the Chinese news stories describes work on the next version of the CZ-2F launcher for the follow-on Shenzhou-related payloads, and an expert told the reporter that the docking target, while the same mass as Shenzhou, had a larger diameter, requiring a larger-diameter shroud (and no escape tower). Voila, here we see a configuration consistent with that comment.
-
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/hyperbola/2008/10/iac-2008-video-shenzhou7-futur.html
-
CG video of China's Tiangong Space Lab Construction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvVFjzO-99o)
Beijing, Nov.11 (China Defense Mashup Report) — When China awarded people who made outstanding contributions to the Shenzhou VII manned space flight during a meeting on last Friday (Nov.07), CCTV (China Central Television Station) played a documentary, which unleashed a clip of CG video to display how China’s future “Tiangong” Space Lab to be assembled in orbit.
From http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/ (http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/)
-
Beijing, Nov.11 (China Defense Mashup Report) — When China awarded people who made outstanding contributions to the Shenzhou VII manned space flight during a meeting on last Friday (Nov.07), CCTV (China Central Television Station) played a documentary, which unleashed a clip of CG video to display how China’s future “Tiangong” Space Lab to be assembled in orbit.
From http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/ (http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/)
Seems there are one core module, two research modules, two Shenzhous and two cargo ships. The core module is expected to be launched before 2020.
BTW, it is not the Tiangong as the report claimed.
-
Found this link on another site:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/26/chinas-tiangong-1-space-station-unveiled-for-tiny-taikonauts/
-
China is moving forward really fast in the field of manned space program
with persistant trade surplus and substantial increase in wealth measured by GDP growth, probably the Chinese space program will get a budget boost and acceleration in schedule
competition is always good for technological progress, as we can see from history ;)
-
It looks like Mir.
I hope Chinese will finish copying the Soviet space program soon (not much left), and start with Apollo...
-
My understanding is that the spacelab mission coming up will have three elements:
Shenzhou 8 is the actual lab module;
Shenzhou 9 will be a cargo module/frieghter (Progress clone?) of some kind;
Shenzhou 10 will be the actual crew vehicle.
I'm not sure how the Chinese are planning to do this. At a guess, I would assume that Sz-8 will be reused a number of times with fresh cargo vehicles and crew vehicles being sent for every mission. The cargo vehicle might also do reboost burns to keep the lab in a stable orbit for longer.
I suspect that this probably has more to do with their lunar exploration plans - EOR practice of some kind.
-
Here's another view of a spacelab:
http://www.sorae.jp/newsimg09/0126tiangong1.jpg (http://www.sorae.jp/newsimg09/0126tiangong1.jpg)
-
Here's another view of a spacelab:
Just off the top of my head, it looks a lot like an ATV, apart from the solar arrays. I wonder if the Chinese have plans to have a 'multi-role' bus with various applications the way that the ESA apparently do with the ATV.
-
-
Thanks for your wonderful pics.
This is my first time to see the details of the real Tiangong-1.
-
Video here:
v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzQ4ODM5NDA=.html
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XNzQ4ODM5NDA=/v.swf
-
This is the model of Tiangong-1. According to the video above, the mass of TG-1 is 8.5 tons.
-
Thanks everybody!
The see that the service module of the mini-space lab hasn't yet been attached to the crew module. We could expect a mid-2010 launch with the most of the crew module completed.
-
Cool! The Chinese are using APAS! I was expecting something more like the Russian Probe/Drogue system.
-
Cool! The Chinese are using APAS! I was expecting something more like the Russian Probe/Drogue system.
After Orion 3 (the second ATLAS delivery) there won't be an APAS on ISS for them to dock to, so I suspect they'll be rethinking their plans if they want to visit ISS.
-
@ wbhh
I note that the last two images you posted look like two different vehicles. The top one is definately the same vehicle that was also in the illustration posted by henrypan123. The bottom one is a standard Salut 7/Mir-class lab module. Which one is Shenzhou-8?
[EDIT - Read Launch Schedule Thread]
Okay, now I know. It looks like the top vehicle is Tiangong-1, which will rendezvous with Shenzhou-8 (the bottom vehicle) before any manned spacecraft.
Does anyone know what the purpose of this mission will be? Will it be a lab, a cargo/reboost module for SZ-8 or is it just going to be docking technology test flight?
-
Thanks everybody!
The see that the service module of the mini-space lab hasn't yet been attached to the crew module. We could expect a mid-2010 launch with the most of the crew module completed.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-02/28/content_10917086.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-02/28/content_10917086.htm)
"China plans to launch an unmanned space module into orbit as early as the end of 2010. It is expected to meet with another unmanned spacecraft, Shenzhou-8, which is scheduled to be launched in early 2011. It would be the country's first space docking. "
-
Tiangong spaceship has two modules as show in the illustration. I guess one is the service module, and the other is the orbit module.
-
Hmm... If hesidu's assessment of TG-1 is right, then I wonder if the service module will be expended after docking. If so, the TG-1 might be a specialised lab and sensor module for Shenzhou-8. In which case, it will be a bit like Kvant I for Mir, a little extra space and more solar array power generation area.
If this is the case, then the Chinese are pretty serious about Shenzhou-8. It isn't going to be a few short-stay missions but the base block of their Mir equivalent (seen in the Launch Schedule thread). Considering that this would catapult them all the way up to parity with Russia in terms of capability in one move, that is a pretty big achievement for their manned program.
I am honestly impressed.
[EDIT - Hmmm]
Alternately... does anyone remember Arthur C. Clarke's '2010 - Odyssey Two'? In that, the Chinese manned Jovian explorer Tsein was built ostensiably as a space station before suddenly sprouting a drive section in the last assembly launch. What if TG-1's service module isn't expended? What if its job is to take SZ-8... elsewhere? Maybe to the Moon?
2011, with four or five years to go before the end of the Shuttle Gap and the Chinese send SZ-8/10 around the Moon, Zond-style. Ridiculous? Maybe. We'll have to wait and see.
-
The picture of Shezhou docking Tiangong shows Taingong having 5 docking adaptors but the actual Taingong has just one. But, are they docking adaptors ??
The actual photos doesn't show anything like that! I was hoping for atleast 2 docking adaptors on Tiangong. Anyway a very good job.
I think the Chinese are modifying the Long March-2F to carry Tiangong as it weighs around 12 tons. The present capability is around 8.5 tons.
-
The picture of Shezhou docking Tiangong shows Taingong having 5 docking adaptors but the actual Taingong has just one. But, are they docking adaptors ??
I'm pretty sure we're looking at two distinct vehicles here, John. Shenzhou-8 is the Mir-style space station in the bottom picture. The vehicle you can see docking with it is Shenzhou-10, the Chinese's evolved-Soyuz clone.
The picture above the rendezvous image is Tiangong-1 I'm guessing that it is going to be a lab and also reboost module to keep SZ-8 in orbit for as long as possible. SZ-9 will probably be an unmanned cargo Shenzhou that will dock at one of the flank ports to carry up lab equipment that launch weight limits won't allow for launch along with SZ-8.
-
Tiangong 1(another name: object spacecraft) will be used to test docking technology. According to early reports, Tiangong 1 will stay in orbit and docking with several Shenzhou spaceships.
-
Cool! The Chinese are using APAS! I was expecting something more like the Russian Probe/Drogue system.
After Orion 3 (the second ATLAS delivery) there won't be an APAS on ISS for them to dock to, so I suspect they'll be rethinking their plans if they want to visit ISS.
In that world where the two US segment APAS have been replaced by LIDS, the Chinese could either adopt LIDS or install a passive APAS-89 on some future available Russian hybrid adapter (assuming the Chinese are ever involved with ISS).
-
OK, I think we are generating a boatload of hyperbole upon seeing these various images and reading rather vague press releases. What I think is in the cards:
1) This new "station" (Tiangong) has a mass of 8.5 tons, but is somewhat larger than Shenzhou as it is less dense. The rear section seems to be pressurized, and the images show dockings with the rear section, so there must be a port there, too. The rear section shows no sign of being a propulsion module. In any case, the Chinese have alluded to 2 Shenzhous being docked to this Tiangong.
2) One image shows a "Node module" mated to the "front" of Tiangong; this module is virtually identical to a planned Node for the ISS Russian segment. Its pretty obvious that this Node would be brought up by some other vehicle, and then docked with Tiangong. Perhaps the Node would be brought up by some future Shenzhou, in lieu of its Orbital Module.
3) So, the concept of operations would be similar to Salyut, with periodic visits by crews. If the Node is installed, then perhaps other similar modules could be attached to expand the station.
-
Cool! The Chinese are using APAS! I was expecting something more like the Russian Probe/Drogue system.
After Orion 3 (the second ATLAS delivery) there won't be an APAS on ISS for them to dock to, so I suspect they'll be rethinking their plans if they want to visit ISS.
In that world where the two US segment APAS have been replaced by LIDS, the Chinese could either adopt LIDS or install a passive APAS-89 on some future available Russian hybrid adapter (assuming the Chinese are ever involved with ISS).
Both India and China will use Russian technology in docking operations. I think both the Shenzhou and Indian OV will be compatible with Russian docking ports on the ISS.
-
Cool! The Chinese are using APAS! I was expecting something more like the Russian Probe/Drogue system.
After Orion 3 (the second ATLAS delivery) there won't be an APAS on ISS for them to dock to, so I suspect they'll be rethinking their plans if they want to visit ISS.
APAS is used because it is what was exported from Russia, China will not be going to ISS (have been officially denied the right to by Congress)
-
Both India and China will use Russian technology in docking operations. I think both the Shenzhou and Indian OV will be compatible with Russian docking ports on the ISS.
The statement above is a little misleading. China is clearing using some sort of APAS variant for its dockings, but although India is using some Russian technology in its capsule, it is not clear if they will use Russian docking technologies, or which variant they might use if they did use Russian hardware.
And, although I stated above that its possible to integrate APAS with the Russian segment:
a) there are no APAS ports on the Russian segment today, nor planned to be installed ever.
b) Although APAS technically is "field replaceable" with hybrid, its a really big job.
Therefore, its very possible that the Indian capsule, if it ever flies, would use probe and cone, and the Chinese vehicle might mate with the US segment.
-
a) there are no APAS ports on the Russian segment today, nor planned to be installed ever.
Technically not true but practically true (Zarya has an APAS port, however PMA-1 is attatched)
Therefore, its very possible that the Indian capsule, if it ever flies, would use probe and cone, and the Chinese vehicle might mate with the US segment.
Again, China has been "banned" from the station by the US Congress, while possibly technically possible it is politically impossible.
-
Xinhua article about the next steps :
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-02/28/content_10917086.htm
-
Both India and China will use Russian technology in docking operations. I think both the Shenzhou and Indian OV will be compatible with Russian docking ports on the ISS.
The statement above is a little misleading. China is clearing using some sort of APAS variant for its dockings, but although India is using some Russian technology in its capsule, it is not clear if they will use Russian docking technologies, or which variant they might use if they did use Russian hardware.
And, although I stated above that its possible to integrate APAS with the Russian segment:
a) there are no APAS ports on the Russian segment today, nor planned to be installed ever.
b) Although APAS technically is "field replaceable" with hybrid, its a really big job.
Therefore, its very possible that the Indian capsule, if it ever flies, would use probe and cone, and the Chinese vehicle might mate with the US segment.
Is the Chinese APAS compatible with the present APAS-95 on the American docking ports in ISS ??
Isn't LIDS same as APAS ?? I thought that it just was a variant with smaller diameter.
And yes India will use a system very similar to the Russian probe and mechanism and they plan to have it from the first flight itself.
-
Technically not true but practically true (Zarya has an APAS port, however PMA-1 is attatched)
You are completely correct, I had forgotten about the "buried" port.
-
Is the Chinese APAS compatible with the present APAS-95 on the American docking ports in ISS ??
Isn't LIDS same as APAS ?? I thought that it just was a variant with smaller diameter.
We don't know exactly how compatible the Chinese APAS is with any existing form of APAS. Given that APAS-95 is compatible with APAS-89, common sense would indicate that the Chinese APAS is also compatible with those systems, but there is no certainty in that assumption. I do see that the latches resemble those of Russian built modern APAS.
LIDS <> APAS.
-
I think China would eventually enter the ISS project. US accuse China of bad human right record every year. A permit to enter the ISS project somehow links to the human right record of China. They think if allow China to enter the ISS project, it would be a huge reward for China. I don't know whether China's human right would be improved in the coming years. But China would sooner or latter has the ability to build its own spacestation. By then, the permit to enter the ISS project will no long seen as a reward for China.
-
I think China would eventually enter the ISS project. US accuse China of bad human right record every year. A permit to enter the ISS project somehow links to the human right record of China. They think if allow China to enter the ISS project, it would be a huge reward for China. I don't know whether China's human right would be improved in the coming years. But China would sooner or latter has the ability to build its own spacestation. By then, the permit to enter the ISS project will no long seen as a reward for China.
That is not the only condition. To join ISS China would have to virtually "rip open" all the components of Shenzhou to be allowed to dock to ISS. NASA would have to pour over every detail of the craft which they have done with Russia, JASA, and ESA. I do not believe China would stand for such an action.
However once again it is the will of the US Congress that China is not allowed, and I do not seem that stance changing anytime soon.
-
I think China would eventually enter the ISS project. US accuse China of bad human right record every year. A permit to enter the ISS project somehow links to the human right record of China. They think if allow China to enter the ISS project, it would be a huge reward for China. I don't know whether China's human right would be improved in the coming years. But China would sooner or latter has the ability to build its own spacestation. By then, the permit to enter the ISS project will no long seen as a reward for China.
That is not the only condition. To join ISS China would have to virtually "rip open" all the components of Shenzhou to be allowed to dock to ISS. NASA would have to pour over every detail of the craft which they have done with Russia, JASA, and ESA. I do not believe China would stand for such an action.
However once again it is the will of the US Congress that China is not allowed, and I do not seem that stance changing anytime soon.
I don't see the Chinese bringing bombs into the ISS. ;D ;D
Seriously, this case about NASA pouring into Russian spacecraft, does vice-versa apply here. If it doesn't, I don't think even the Russians would allow such a thing.
-
I would like to see that one day China spacecraft could dock into ISS. I think this day will come sooner or later.
-
I think China would eventually enter the ISS project. US accuse China of bad human right record every year. A permit to enter the ISS project somehow links to the human right record of China. They think if allow China to enter the ISS project, it would be a huge reward for China. I don't know whether China's human right would be improved in the coming years. But China would sooner or latter has the ability to build its own spacestation. By then, the permit to enter the ISS project will no long seen as a reward for China.
That is not the only condition. To join ISS China would have to virtually "rip open" all the components of Shenzhou to be allowed to dock to ISS. NASA would have to pour over every detail of the craft which they have done with Russia, JASA, and ESA. I do not believe China would stand for such an action.
However once again it is the will of the US Congress that China is not allowed, and I do not seem that stance changing anytime soon.
I don't see the Chinese bringing bombs into the ISS. ;D ;D
That is not the point, and I think you know it, otherwise you would not have used the smileys.
The point is that a high level of transparency and insight are required in order for NASA and Russia to determine that Shenzhou is reliable enough to safely dock with ISS.
This has been discussed before. Rather than rehash all the details, I'll post links to my past posts on the topic.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15439.msg358042#msg358042
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15439.msg358137#msg358137
-
What about the other way around? When China builds their own space station, will Soyuz spacecraft visit it whatever the US says? And is there any official minimal distance Chinese spacecraft must have from the ISS or it would be considered hostile? I could see the Chinese do a huge PR job on that one, if China sent a spacecraft near the ISS and NASA reacted negativly that would be a huge hit for their propaganda especially towards their own people ala "You see we have achieved this great thing and the bad US is calling foul for it"
-
What about the other way around? When China builds their own space station, will Soyuz spacecraft visit it whatever the US says?
That's a matter between China and Russia. The US wouldn't care, as long as the Russians continue to provide four Soyuzes per year to ISS.
And is there any official minimal distance Chinese spacecraft must have from the ISS or it would be considered hostile?
There is an Approach Ellipsoid (I forget the dimensions), within which any visiting vehicle must have a "go for approach" from ISS.
-
This one possibly is TG-2, it obviously larger than Shenzhou, so it can't be TG-1, TG-1 is only 8.5 ton.
After 2014, China will has LongMarch-5 rocket(LEO 25 ton), this is its job.
-
What about the other way around? When China builds their own space station, will Soyuz spacecraft visit it whatever the US says? And is there any official minimal distance Chinese spacecraft must have from the ISS or it would be considered hostile? I could see the Chinese do a huge PR job on that one, if China sent a spacecraft near the ISS and NASA reacted negativly that would be a huge hit for their propaganda especially towards their own people ala "You see we have achieved this great thing and the bad US is calling foul for it"
You are forgetting one important constraint - the Chinese do not launch to 51.6 degrees inclination, so there will be few opportunities for a close approach.
-
Fortunately, political constraints are easier to resolve than technical constraints.
-
This one possibly is TG-2, it obviously larger than Shenzhou, so it can't be TG-1, TG-1 is only 8.5 ton.
After 2014, China will has LongMarch-5 rocket(LEO 25 ton), this is its job.
I agree with you. It must be Tiangong-2 or Tiangong-3, which is larger than the Tiangong-1.
And this is the official illustration of Tiangong-1 and Shenzhou spaceship docking. Obviously, the left one is TG-1 and the other is SZ spaceship.
It is said that the TG-1 will be launched in 2010, and the SZ-8, SZ-9 and SZ-10 will be send into space from 2011 to 2012. All the three SZ spaceships will dock into TG-1.
In addition, CNSA will also send TG-2 and TG-3 into orbit by 2015. And CNSA maybe also send other 4 manned SZ spaceships into space to dock with these Tiangong space labs.
So we can make a conclusion that China may send 3 Tiangong space labs(TG-1, TG-2 and TG-3), 2 unmanned Shenzhou spaceships(SZ-8 and SZ-9) and other 5 manned Shenzhou spaceships(maybe from SZ-10 to SZ-14) from 2010 to 2015.
And China will complete the construction of its own space station by 2020.
You can visit this Chinese website for details:
http://scitech.people.com.cn/GB/25509/55912/145728/
-
Referring to the above illustrations, I agree that the lower illustration is Tiangong 1 and the multiple docking unit on the upper station makes it appear to be the core module of a Tiangong 3 orbital station, like Mir. So, what about Tiangong 2?
Also, the Chinese have recently referred to "new CZ-2F" vehicles being prepared for the next group pf flights. If you remove the heavy launch escape system and Shenzhou shroud and then substitute an "unmanned payload shroud", the CZ-2F can orbit ~9.5 tonnes. So, the CZ-2F can launch Tiangong 1. Following on, why is the 12.5 tonnes capability needed for Shenzhou 8, 9, 10? Will they continue to use the CZ-2F that we know and love?
Maybe the statements that the CZ-2F had been retired and would be relaced by the CZ-2F/G and CZ-2F/H are a little premature and were made by people pushing for the new launch vehicles in support of testing CZ-5 engine technology?
Going back to Shenzhou itself, SZ 8 is scheduled to dock with Tiangong 1 and SZ 10 will be the first manned visit there: so what will SZ 9 do that will be intermediate between SZ 8 and SZ 10? Maybe its a contingency mission in case something goes wrong with SZ 8?
Something which I have not seen discussed is where Shenzhou docks with Tiangong 1. From the first video and photographs of Tiangong 1 coming out in 2003 the docking has been shown to be "at the back", on the larger-diameter cylinder.
But there have been some models displayed showing the Shenzhou docked "at the back", on the smaller-diameter module. It is possible that the people behind the displays simply assumed that the docking would be on the narrow-diameter cylinder. Certainly the animations have always shown Shenzhou docking at the back on what I assume is a 3.35 metres diameter section.
Thank you China for keeping uncertainty in space programmes!!
-
I think China would eventually enter the ISS project. US accuse China of bad human right record every year. A permit to enter the ISS project somehow links to the human right record of China. They think if allow China to enter the ISS project, it would be a huge reward for China. I don't know whether China's human right would be improved in the coming years. But China would sooner or latter has the ability to build its own spacestation. By then, the permit to enter the ISS project will no long seen as a reward for China.
That is not the only condition. To join ISS China would have to virtually "rip open" all the components of Shenzhou to be allowed to dock to ISS. NASA would have to pour over every detail of the craft which they have done with Russia, JASA, and ESA. I do not believe China would stand for such an action.
However once again it is the will of the US Congress that China is not allowed, and I do not seem that stance changing anytime soon.
I don't see the Chinese bringing bombs into the ISS. ;D ;D
That is not the point, and I think you know it, otherwise you would not have used the smileys.
The point is that a high level of transparency and insight are required in order for NASA and Russia to determine that Shenzhou is reliable enough to safely dock with ISS.
This has been discussed before. Rather than rehash all the details, I'll post links to my past posts on the topic.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15439.msg358042#msg358042
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15439.msg358137#msg358137
And we have to accept the fact that Russia only joined the ISS program in 90s i.e. after and dissolution of the Soviet Union and when Russia was nearly bankrupt.
If the US were to be planning for ISS today, I don't think Russia would have joined. That's the reason Russia is proposing a new space-station after 2015. That would be only for it's supporters like China and India.
-
I suggest that the title of this thread be modified into "Tiangong Space Laboratory".
Because it makes some readers get confused about China's Shenzhou spaceships and Tiangong spacelabs.
-
Tiangong's docking mechanism looks extremely close to Shuttle's. Look at the details, as if they are from the same blueprint!
-
Tiangong's docking mechanism looks extremely close to Shuttle's. Look at the details, as if they are from the same blueprint!
Read Jim Oberg : http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=12687
-
Read Jim Oberg : http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=12687
APAS-89! I don't know that. Thanks for your info.
-
@Danderman, is it that China doesn't launch into 51.6 degrees inclination or can't they? If they can't, is a phase shift as would be needed to reach ISS completely olut of reach for Shenzhou?
@johnxx9 I'm pretty sure even todays Russia wouldn't be totaly against US Spacecraft visiting any pure Russian post 2015 station, let alone ban Europe from contributing. I think they have far less ideological boundaries than one could think, after all Russia might be pretty much as totalitarian as the Soviet Union, but unlike that they are now dependend on the West because they want to sell their Oil, Diamonds and other Products. And pretty much the same applies for China, even though I'd categorize it to be even more totalitarian than Russia, which by the way is known to change it's status quite fast when the man/woman on the controls changes.
-
Something which I have not seen discussed is where Shenzhou docks with Tiangong 1. From the first video and photographs of Tiangong 1 coming out in 2003 the docking has been shown to be "at the back", on the larger-diameter cylinder.
But there have been some models displayed showing the Shenzhou docked "at the back", on the smaller-diameter module. It is possible that the people behind the displays simply assumed that the docking would be on the narrow-diameter cylinder. Certainly the animations have always shown Shenzhou docking at the back on what I assume is a 3.35 metres diameter section.
It is possible that TG-1 is a 'double-ender' with docking rings on both modules.
This fits in with something I read that SZ-9 will be a Progress-equivalent logistics flight in between SZ-8 and SZ-10. From the way the report I read was termed, the SZ-10 crew will visit simultaneously with SZ-9. If it is a logistics flight, they may use it to outfit TG-1 for some science role, possibly a role that would continue after SZ-10 leaves.
-
It is possible that TG-1 is a 'double-ender' with docking rings on both modules.
Have a look at the picture which I posted on September 22nd last year, showing a view from the smaller cylinder of Tiangong 1 towards the approaching Shenzhou. No sign of a docking unit at this narrow end of the space lab. It could be argued that designs can change with time (this picture is a still from the 2003 Shenzhou 5 documentary DVD), but the addition of a second docking port on what appears to be the service module would be a rather major design change, I think.
The ground mock-up of Tiangong 1 appears to be in two sections, which is what prompted my original idea (most probably wrong!) that the service module might be launched separately from the laboratory section.
Still, only about two years before we find out - plenty of time for more speculation and more howlers!
-
http://scitech.people.com.cn/GB/25509/55912/55913/55916/8775626.html
Babelfish translation http://babelfish.yahoo.com/
What our country develops “heavenly palace one” to use at present is two cabin structures, respectively be testing cabin and resources cabin. The testing cabin may guarantee that astronaut's and so on chamber pressure, humiture, gaseous component survival requirements, use in the astronaut being resident the period in-orbit work and the life, after the seal, awl section install the regeneration to live guarantee and so on equipment. Front end the testing cabin installs a docking mechanism, as well as the rendezvous docking survey and the communication facility, use in supporting and the airship realize rendezvous docking. The resources cabin provides the power for the orbital maneuver, provides the energy for the flight.
Dated 10th February 2009
“heavenly palace one” - Tiangong-1
Get the impression that there is only one docking mechanism and it is at the front. Only the larger section at the front of Tiangong-1 is habitable. Docking two spacecraft is difficult and they are not going to over complicate the issue.
http://scitech.people.com.cn/GB/25509/55912/145728/
Read a few mores things and Shenzhou-8, Shenzhou-9 and Shenzhou-10 are to be launched after Tiangong-1, and one after the other.
-
The official mockup of Tiangong-1 looks different from the old conception drawing.
The Lab module has a less diameter. The Service Module is expanded. Size of solar array almost cut by half.
The Service Module almost has no feature on it, except the solar array and zenith-facing HG antenna.
The Service Module is so small that I doubt it has another docking mechanism, or even is accessible by the crew.
If Tiangong-1 has only one docking mechanism, how can both Shenzhou-9 and Shenzhou-10 be docked to it simultaneously?
-
@Danderman, is it that China doesn't launch into 51.6 degrees inclination or can't they? If they can't, is a phase shift as would be needed to reach ISS completely olut of reach for Shenzhou?
It is technically possible for the Chinese to launch from some places in China to 51.6 degrees. However, it would be pointless to do so unless there were agreements in place to attach to ISS or at least have some sort of cooperative agreement for the two stations. There would be no reason for the Chinese to alter their program to co-orbit with ISS just to bug NASA.
-
It is possible that TG-1 is a 'double-ender' with docking rings on both modules.
This is not TG-1. Much larger, about 5 m in diameter. This babe can only be launched by the next-generation still-to-come CZ-5 rocket.
-
It is possible that TG-1 is a 'double-ender' with docking rings on both modules.
(http://i055.radikal.ru/0810/35/43b3f4fbce1f.jpg)
Anyone read what is written on it?
-
It is possible that TG-1 is a 'double-ender' with docking rings on both modules.
(http://i055.radikal.ru/0810/35/43b3f4fbce1f.jpg)
Anyone read what is written on it?
The first two characters read "China", at least...
-
Anyone read what is written on it?
Just "Chinese Astronautics"
-
Lovely display models but I don't think that they are very accurate. I always believed that the larger diameter section of what we now call Tiangong 1 was the "living and working" area, while the narrower section with the solar panels comprised the service module area.
Note that this model with Shenzhou docked at the narrow section also shows solar panels on the orbtal module. No artwork has shown a Shenzhou with solar panels on the orbital module since the Shenzhou 6 mission - they are never depicted on missions which are docking with a space lab or the larger space station.
-
This looks consistent with the appearance of an imaging system. Are there other plausible explanations?
- Ed Kyle
-
It is possible that TG-1 is a 'double-ender' with docking rings on both modules.
(http://i055.radikal.ru/0810/35/43b3f4fbce1f.jpg)
Anyone read what is written on it?
The Chinese characters on it are "中国航天", which means China Aerospace or China Space.
-
The Chinese characters on it are "中国航天", which means China Aerospace or China Space.
Aerospace means "航空航天", or "aeronautics and astronautics", "航天" is strictly flight beyond Earth's atmosphere.
-
How long the Shenzhou spaceship or Tiangong spaceship can stay in appropriate attitude without a second boost ? Can anyone answer may question please.
http://scitech.people.com.cn/GB/25509/55912/55913/55916/8775626.html
This report said that there will be two unmaned Shenzhou spaceships docking with Tiangong spaceship, before manned flight. And I haven't read any report indicated that two Shenzhou spaceships would dock Tiangong 1 spaceship simultaneously. I think these two Shenzhou spaceship will dock Tiangong 1 one by one. So Tiangong 1 much has enough time in orbit to wait for those two Shenzhou spaceship. This raise several questions. Would Tiangong spaceship have main engines like Shenzhou spaceship to give a second boost ? How long the Tiangong spaceship can stay in appropriate attitude. How much time need for the second Shenzhou spaceship to be propared for launch.
-
http://scitech.people.com.cn/GB/25509/55912/55913/55916/8775626.html
By the way, this report also said that the large section(lab module) will dock will other spaceship. And this report gives two new name for modules. The small section is called "resouce module", and the large one is called "lab module".
-
This looks consistent with the appearance of an imaging system. Are there other plausible explanations?
- Ed Kyle
Craig Covalt reports that China's space station is intended to be a military outpost. http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0903/02chinastation/
China's MOL?
- Ed Kyle
-
Craig Covalt reports that China's space station is intended to be a military outpost. http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0903/02chinastation/
China's MOL?
If they cancel it prior to flight, perhaps. :)
If it actually flies, Salyut 3 or 5 might be a better analogy.
-
How long the Shenzhou spaceship or Tiangong spaceship can stay in appropriate attitude without a second boost ? Can anyone answer may question please.
That may not be an issue. TG-1's service module is big enough that, if it contains an engine of some kind, it could probably handle several reboosts autominously. It was that size that made me initially think that it was actually a logistics vehicle for a larger manned space lab. In any case, the basic 'feel' of the Chinese's comments on the vehicle suggests that it is intended for autominous operations for most of its lifespan.
With reference to rendezvous missions with TG-1, I have read that two of the missions from SZ-8 to SZ-10 will be manned. The logical inferance is that SZ-8 will be a teleoperated docking rehersal and SZ-9 and -10 will be actual expeditions to TG-1.
@ Ed Kyle:
It is a possibility. The Chinese have already proven that they don't consdier themselves bound by all those tired 'gentlemens agreements' about demilitarised space. However, if TG-1 is militarily themed, I would assume that it would be more of a test mission for orbital reconnaissance sensors and proceedures rather than anything more sinister (OMG! They're building a Death Star!1!!).
It is also a possibility that, like the Russians before them, the Chinese are going to deliberately name their military and civil space missions using the same scheme to keep foreign intelligence agencies guessing up until the last moment what is actually going to fly.
-
I suppose it's worth recalling some of the Mir modules were based on the Almaz designs, which had automomous capability. So they could fly a few Tiangongs, then, once the second generation "hub" is aloft, add specialized Tiangong-based research modules to it. That's as well as the possibility of ATV-like uses, and even use as a LLO mini-station (once they have a big enough LV).
-
I do have seen an interview of one Chinese scientist, talking about the benefit of military reconnaissance of manned spaceflight. This scientist claimed that manned space reconnaissance have advantages over satellite reconnaissance.
I believe China's manned space project is a civil space project. But considering the close relationship between China's military and space agency. It would not hard to believe China's spaceships may have military equipments.
-
Considering the re-boost requirement, this would depend upon the level of solar activity while the flights are taking place: solar activity affects the variation of atmospheric density with altitude, and thus the decay rates of satellites.
The Chinese saying that Shenzhou 9 will be unmanned is possibly a contingency in case problems arise with SZ8 and they need to re-run that mission. Otherwise, they could fly SZ9 with a crew and say "hey guys, we've done this a flight earlier than planned" (or whatever the Mandarin is for that).
Oh, and who says that there will be separate civil and military space stations, like there were in the Soviet Salyut programme? I was assuming that they would all be primarily military. Of course, that could be my old Cold War cynicism slipping out.
-
By the way, is there any analyst about the project management of China's space project. I have seen so many chief directors, chief engineers, chief designers, as well as space company managers, launch site managers. How they cooperate and interact with each other. How the scientist community work with their military colleagues. And when problem comes, who is to give the final choose of different solutions. It is chief director, chief designer or chief engineer. Also who is to sign final agreement for launch ?
-
By the way, is there any analyst about the project management of China's space project. I have seen so many chief directors, chief engineers, chief designers, as well as space company managers, launch site managers. How they cooperate and interact with each other. How the scientist community work with their military colleagues. And when problem comes, who is to give the final choose of different solutions. It is chief director, chief designer or chief engineer. Also who is to sign final agreement for launch ?
That'd be a interesting but difficult analysis.
Chinese space agencies have no PAO, so always there are someone, a chief scientist, chief director, chief designer, chief engineer and so on, to leak some info to the media. Usually the info appear to be confusing and conflicting. They never set a firm launch date until days before launch day and everything is go. Before that, they said "patient, we will choose a good chance to do that".
The management seems to be quite complex. They created a management team for a specific project, like moon orbiting probe program management team, or manned space flight office. Those big heads in the teams are usually important figures in both scientific and industrial lobby, as well as governmental bureaucracy. For instance, you are the chief director of some project management team, academician of Chinese Academy of Sciences, general secretory of a huge space corporation, vice president of The Commission for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense, and you are the chief designer of the spacecraft, all at the same time!
Is that possible for a person to do so much work by him or herself? I don't know.
-
I do have seen an interview of one Chinese scientist, talking about the benefit of military reconnaissance of manned spaceflight. This scientist claimed that manned space reconnaissance have advantages over satellite reconnaissance.
What are those benefits? It seems to me that cost would be extraordinarily higher for a manned system than for an unmanned satellite system - especially in this non-film/radarsat era. One would want a potential adversary wasting resources on a manned system.
- Ed Kyle
-
I do have seen an interview of one Chinese scientist, talking about the benefit of military reconnaissance of manned spaceflight. This scientist claimed that manned space reconnaissance have advantages over satellite reconnaissance.
What are those benefits? It seems to me that cost would be extraordinarily higher for a manned system than for an unmanned satellite system - especially in this non-film/radarsat era. One would want a potential adversary wasting resources on a manned system.
- Ed Kyle
I guess because China's satellite reconnaissance technology was not as good as America's.
-
What are those benefits? It seems to me that cost would be extraordinarily higher for a manned system than for an unmanned satellite system - especially in this non-film/radarsat era. One would want a potential adversary wasting resources on a manned system.
- Ed Kyle
I guess because China's satellite reconnaissance technology was not as good as America's.
[/quote]
The USA, Israel and India all at present seem to have superior satellite reconnaissance technology. The Israelis have their Ofeq series and the Indians have their IRS series. I mean the Indians have a constellation of remote-sensing satellites and their latest satellite has a resolution of 30 cm. That is only matched currently by US spy satellites.
But we have to accept that the biggest driving force for manned missions to national prestige for US, Russia, China and India. are primarily the ones related.
-
By the way, is there any analyst about the project management of China's space project. I have seen so many chief directors, chief engineers, chief designers, as well as space company managers, launch site managers. How they cooperate and interact with each other. How the scientist community work with their military colleagues. And when problem comes, who is to give the final choose of different solutions. It is chief director, chief designer or chief engineer. Also who is to sign final agreement for launch ?
That'd be a interesting but difficult analysis.
Chinese space agencies have no PAO, so always there are someone, a chief scientist, chief director, chief designer, chief engineer and so on, to leak some info to the media. Usually the info appear to be confusing and conflicting. They never set a firm launch date until days before launch day and everything is go. Before that, they said "patient, we will choose a good chance to do that".
The management seems to be quite complex. They created a management team for a specific project, like moon orbiting probe program management team, or manned space flight office. Those big heads in the teams are usually important figures in both scientific and industrial lobby, as well as governmental bureaucracy. For instance, you are the chief director of some project management team, academician of Chinese Academy of Sciences, general secretory of a huge space corporation, vice president of The Commission for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense, and you are the chief designer of the spacecraft, all at the same time!
Is that possible for a person to do so much work by him or herself? I don't know.
There seems to be three levels in the project management system.
At the top, is the mission level. There are chief director, chief engineer, chief designer for each mission. They are the top three of the whole project. Under their leadership, there are vice-chief directors, vice-chief engineers, vice-chief designers. They seemed to be related with different companies, facilities or institutions, participated in the project. For example, the chief manager of CASC was one of the vice-chief engineers of the project.
The second level is the subsystem level. There are also chief director, chief designer, chief engineer for each subsystem. Under them, also vice-chief directors, vice-chief engineers, vice-chief designers.
At the bottom level, there are ordinary engineers, designers and technicians. Also they have team leaders.
-
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1322/1
Phasing Dragon
by Dwayne A. Day
Monday, March 9, 2009
Everybody has a chip on their shoulder about something—many people have a whole bag of chips (or should that be a circuit board of chips?) I certainly have several, including people who won’t stand on the right and walk on the left on Washington Metro escalators (tourists!), drivers who don’t use turn signals, and just about any popular media article about the Chinese space program. The reason that media reports on China’s space program bug me is that they often seem to be out of phase with what is already known based upon Chinese reports and statements. That is still true, even as reporting on China’s human spaceflight program transitions from inaccurate stories about lunar ambitions to more accurate stories about Chinese space station plans.
The latest case in point concerns recent reports that China is beginning development of a new space station. The Chinese revealed the space station design on a New Year holiday television broadcast, around the same time that their first lunar robotic spacecraft smashed into the lunar surface. This was reported in numerous places in the western media as if it was a great revelation and a change in Chinese plans. The reality is that these plans, and the space station’s overall design, have been publicly known for nearly six months. Despite the way some in the western media have reported it, nothing has changed. In fact, popular media reporting about China’s future space plans seems more to reflect Western biases and fears than it does what the Chinese government is actually saying and doing. This is not a case of Chinese statements being unreliable; it’s a case of the Western media being inattentive.
-
TG1 + SZ8/9/10
Why couldn't SZ8 (which is to be unmanned and remain orbital) just be a glorified docking port - i.e. the orbital module contain three docking ports: one for TG1, one for SZ9, and one for SZ10. It seems this way, CNSA could investigate multiple roles at one - that of the resupply/autonomous rendezvous (TG1), multiple docking module (SZ8), and autonomous flight of a manned vehicle (SZ9), and docking/manning (SZ10). Pure speculation, I know.
Speaking of which, could the habitation modules be left attached to the space lab?
-
TG1 + SZ8/9/10
Why couldn't SZ8 (which is to be unmanned and remain orbital) just be a glorified docking port - i.e. the orbital module contain three docking ports: one for TG1, one for SZ9, and one for SZ10. It seems this way, CNSA could investigate multiple roles at one - that of the resupply/autonomous rendezvous (TG1), multiple docking module (SZ8), and autonomous flight of a manned vehicle (SZ9), and docking/manning (SZ10). Pure speculation, I know.
The Chinese have already said that SZ8 is to be a dummy run for the first manned docking - SZ9. My guess is that it might extend the SZ duration experence from the current ~7 days. Also, a few years ago they said that starting SZ8 the spacecraft would be "serial produced", identical rather than tailored for a specific mission as we have seen so far. So that means SZ8 will be essentially the same configuration as SZ9, SZ10, etc, etc.
Looking at the Chinese animations it would appear that TG1 is a shortened version of the "Salyut-class" space station modules: on the later modules the two cylinders appear to be about twice the length as the corresponding ones on TG1. So, that might suggest that using the cargo craft design for the first spacelab will mean the visits will be fairly short - maybe no more than a week or two, simply to gain experience and prove technology.
Maybe TG2 will have two docking ports like Salyuts 6/7 and then TG3 will be the equivalent of the Mir core, with plug on modules using the TG2 design and the cargo craft being the shorter TG1 design. This is what the animations of TG1 and TG3 seem to imply. Not sure that we have seen TG2 represented in an anmation yet.
We shall see in time ...........
-
This article states that the 'space laboratories' Tiangong II and III are bigger than the 'target vehicle' Tiangong I, and that each has a specific scientific mission:
http://www.bjreview.com.cn/life/txt/2009-03/24/content_187451.htm
-
The implication of the article referenced above is that both TG-2 and TG-3 will be single-module space labs, perhaps rather like the Salyuts. The modular space station is neither of these designators - maybe it will be TG-4 or a completely different designator.
-
Zond's 11/12/2008 posting of the Space station construction has been removed from YouTube. Did anyone make screenshots?
Cheers,
Luc
-
This looks consistent with the appearance of an imaging system. Are there other plausible explanations?
- Ed Kyle
it's a fuel tank?
-
This looks consistent with the appearance of an imaging system. Are there other plausible explanations?
- Ed Kyle
it's a fuel tank?
Not very likely; it is sticking through the outer structure, which doesn't make much sense.
Besides, this is the backend of the laboratory part of Tiangong; the engine section with solar panels is yet to be attached and that is where you might expect fuel tanks.
From several Chinese drawings, it looks like the Chinese are using Shenzhou hardware in their first station just like the Soviets did with Salyut-1; there, a Soyuz engine section with solar panels was used as the engine/orientation block.
-
Tiangong to be launched from Hainan at the end of 2010; from Shangai Daily Space labs pave way for China's first space station (http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/?id=412310&type=National)
-
Tiangong to be launched from Hainan at the end of 2010; from Shangai Daily Space labs pave way for China's first space station (http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/?id=412310&type=National)
Interesting. Is there anything definitive as to how many launch pads are to be built at Hainan and what vehicles they would support? From its description Tiangong 1 could be launched by a CZ-2F class vehicle, so are we perhaps thinking of one of these pads plus two for the CZ-5?
But why launch from Hainan when they could launch from Jiuquan using the Shenzhou pad?
-
Once again Shanghai Daily.com is talking about Tiangong Lab aloft is China's 1st step to space pod (http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/?id=412388&type=National)
-
With the beginning of construction at Wenchang this September I cannot imagine a launch of CZ-2F class vehicle from Hainan a year from now. The story seems not to be credible.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b39d4CLoqU0&feature=related
This is a 2009 vintage report on the small lab module.
-
From Space Daily China's Mystery Spacelab (http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/China_Mystery_Spacelab_999.html).
-
From Xinhua China to put Tiangong-1 into space next year (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-03/03/c_13195325.htm).
-
Launch schedule:
Tiangong 1: 1st half 2011
Shenzhou 8: 2nd half 2011
Shenzhou 9: 1st half 2012
Shenzhou 10: 2nd half 2012
I hope all goes well!
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90881/6915985.html
-
Hmmm ... it looks like the Chinese will ramp up to 2 missions per year within 2 years from now.
-
I was looking to old files I had from IAF last year in South Korea. Here are some interesting pix about Shenzhou vessel with docking system (APAS 89 ?) and 3D imagery of Tiangong:
-
More news emerging on Tiangong 1, footage and photo's of the flight unit(s) being prepared: http://www.chinanews.com.cn/shipin/2010/08-17/news17080.html
-
The space station in preparation; it seems there are two units being prepared. Unclear if this is Tiangong-1 and -2...
-
the laboratory and instrument sections are yet to be joined together...
-
also, the APAS-89-like docking apparatus is not installed yet; internal camera's provide a sneak preview of the yet empty space lab...
-
the video seems to indicate the solar panels' area was enlarged at some point; a cutaway drawing of Tiangong-1
-
TG-1
-
TG-1
This is a Shenzhou spacecraft, not TianGong!
According to this website: http://military.china.com/zh_cn/important/64/20100817/16084836_1.html
this is Shenzhou-8 in the "general equipment department".
I had tried to translate the Chinese caption via online translator Systran. This is what came out:
"The advanced version Shenzhou manned vehicle is carrying on the general equipment department. Plan Shenzhou No. 8 airship which launches in 2011 in the second half of the year, will implement Chinese for the first time space nobody rendezvous docked flight experiment. Afterward will launch Shenzhou 9th and Shenzhou No. 10 airship one after another, completes space rendezvous docking with “heavenly palace No. 1” separately. Reason that these three airships' firing times must catch up, in “heavenly palace No. 1” launches in the latter two years , because “heavenly palace No. 1” life has two years. It is estimated that after Shenzhou No. 10 airship completes rendezvous docking, in 2015 will launch genuine space station “heavenly palace No. 2”."
I haven't seen any pics of Shenzhou-8 to date, this might be the first one that was released?
-
That is certainly the first image of Shenzhou 8 which I’ve seen.
The Chinese have said before that Shenzhou 8 will be the first standard production version, which will now be series produced through Shenzhou 9, 10 and beyond. Apparently the previous 7 were all mission specific prototypes, being test flown to shake down different aspects of the evolving design.
It will be interesting, when better images emerge, to identify any visible changes to the earlier versions.
-
Closer inspection an enhancement of a camera image of the integration hall, shown in the recent video, shows there are actually THREE vehicles being prepared.
One is at top left, with its 'propulsion module' to its right; yet without the white thermal covering.
The module at lower left is seems to be missing its prop module alltogether.
An animation shows the underside of Tiangong, displaying what appear to be two large telescopes. These are also visible in the photo at the top of my first recent posting.
-
These class of modules could probably be added to ISS down the road, should the Chinese join the partnership; they are probably compatible with the Russian segment, which is planned to expand during the next few years.
-
These class of modules could probably be added to ISS down the road, should the Chinese join the partnership; they are probably compatible with the Russian segment, which is planned to expand during the next few years.
If China participates in ISS, what can we provide? US invites Russia to ISS because of the huge heritage in aerospace left by CCCP. China is useless compared with Russia. Maybe the only thing we can provide is rmb.
-
If China participates in ISS, what can we provide? US invites Russia to ISS because of the huge heritage in aerospace left by CCCP. China is useless compared with Russia. Maybe the only thing we can provide is rmb.
China will offer a crewed spacecraft capability and an ability to add modules, both capabilities that the U.S. will lack once STS is retired. Shenzhou will be the world's most capable human spacecraft once Shuttle is gone.
- Ed Kyle
-
You don't need a Shenzhou to launch modules. Look at how Mir and half of the Russian segment on ISS was built.
-
If China participates in ISS, what can we provide? US invites Russia to ISS because of the huge heritage in aerospace left by CCCP. China is useless compared with Russia. Maybe the only thing we can provide is rmb.
Then, Canada is useless compared with China.
-
Daniel Marin's web site has a section on TianGong-1:
http://danielmarin.blogspot.com/2010/01/el-tiangong-2-en-2011.html (http://danielmarin.blogspot.com/2010/01/el-tiangong-2-en-2011.html)
with this interesting photo, showing what appears to be an APAS-89 docking unit. There is no way that the Chinese just happened to develop a docking system that happens to resemble APAS, this is an APAS, unless under the metal, the mechanisms are different. Apart from the external collar connectors, this unit appears to be capable of docking with ISS or the Shuttle.
-
Daniel Marin's web site has a section on TianGong-1:
http://danielmarin.blogspot.com/2010/01/el-tiangong-2-en-2011.html (http://danielmarin.blogspot.com/2010/01/el-tiangong-2-en-2011.html)
with this interesting photo, showing what appears to be an APAS-89 docking unit. There is no way that the Chinese just happened to develop a docking system that happens to resemble APAS, this is an APAS, unless under the metal, the mechanisms are different. Apart from the external collar connectors, this unit appears to be capable of docking with ISS or the Shuttle.
I thought it was fairly common knowledge that China purchased (or licensed) APAS from Russia for the Shenzhou program years ago.
-
Daniel Marin's web site has a section on TianGong-1:
http://danielmarin.blogspot.com/2010/01/el-tiangong-2-en-2011.html (http://danielmarin.blogspot.com/2010/01/el-tiangong-2-en-2011.html)
with this interesting photo, showing what appears to be an APAS-89 docking unit. There is no way that the Chinese just happened to develop a docking system that happens to resemble APAS, this is an APAS, unless under the metal, the mechanisms are different. Apart from the external collar connectors, this unit appears to be capable of docking with ISS or the Shuttle.
I thought it was fairly common knowledge that China purchased (or licensed) APAS from Russia for the Shenzhou program years ago.
Yes, it is. Those are "old" images...
-
Daniel Marin's web site has a section on TianGong-1:
http://danielmarin.blogspot.com/2010/01/el-tiangong-2-en-2011.html (http://danielmarin.blogspot.com/2010/01/el-tiangong-2-en-2011.html)
with this interesting photo, showing what appears to be an APAS-89 docking unit. There is no way that the Chinese just happened to develop a docking system that happens to resemble APAS, this is an APAS, unless under the metal, the mechanisms are different. Apart from the external collar connectors, this unit appears to be capable of docking with ISS or the Shuttle.
I thought it was fairly common knowledge that China purchased (or licensed) APAS from Russia for the Shenzhou program years ago.
Those were rumors. AFAIK, Russia never licensed APAS to China, and in fact, they seemed really bitter about Russian concepts integrated into the Chinese program.
-
An animation shows the underside of Tiangong, displaying what appear to be two large telescopes. These are also visible in the photo at the top of my first recent posting.
Which is curious. China has perfectly good military reconn and civil surveying sats, and those don't have to deal with clumsy humans bumping into things and messing with the alignment. Salyut-Almaz had cameras, but that made a bit of sense in that the film had to be recovered. I can only think that those much be tech demos...
Of course, Almaz also had a Gatling gun; I don't think the Chinese are that crazy...
-
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Tiangong_Space_Lab_Spurs_China_Space_PR_Blitz_999.html
http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/?p=8306
-
The title seems to indicate a berthing test was conducted.
http://www.spacechina.com/xwzx_zyxw_Details.shtml?recno=73111
Roughly: Senior leaders visited the launch vehicle assembly testing facility on 13th of Jan., and the Shenzhou 8 & Tiangong 1 joint testing facility on the 17th. They emphasized the priority of the manned space program and encouraged everyone to do their good job.
-
Launch of Tiangong-1 is postponed to the 2nd half of this year.
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2011-01-23/122821861446.shtml
-
Given how much press interest the J-20 fighter generated, it will be curious to see the reaction after TianGong finally launches...
-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/22/AR2011012203747.html
On the day Hu left for his U.S. trip, Chinese news media reported the inauguration of a new program to train astronauts - called taikonauts here - for eventual deployment to the first Chinese space station, planned for 2015. As part of the project, two launches are planned for this year, that of an unmanned space module, called Tiangong-1, or "Heavenly Palace," by summer, and later an unmanned Shenzhou spacecraft that will attempt to dock with it.
-
Anyone know the diameter of that large pressurized section??
-
Anyone know the diameter of that large pressurized section??
Adjusting for perspective, it's a bit less than twice the height of the guy standing next to it. Assuming the average height of a Chinese male is 1.7 m (from Wiki), then 1.95*2*1.7 m = 6.6 m.
(some good olde fashioned Kremlinology right there :) )
-
I presume that either the number "2" or the number "1.95" was not supposed to be in that equation, otherwise I can't figure it out.
-
There is no way that the Chinese just happened to develop a docking system that happens to resemble APAS, this is an APAS, unless under the metal, the mechanisms are different. Apart from the external collar connectors, this unit appears to be capable of docking with ISS or the Shuttle.
Actually, I think there's some good evidence to suggest that is nothing more than a mock-up or copy and that the Chinese don't have the actual APAS mechanism at all.
1) The capture system is effectively missing. Yes, the body mounted latches are there (those are the passive stubby bits that interface with the capture latches) however it appears that there are just rectangular cutouts where the actual active capture latch mechanism lives.
2) Something about the pulleys for the hard mate system (hooks) look off. First, they're missing all the cabling which interconnects hook groups. Second, the hook 'body' assemblies (structure that supports them) do not look like the actual flight assemblies. Sure - the general shape is right, but having spent much time around the actual hardware - I just get a 'mockup' feeling when I see those hook assemblies. Same goes for the pulleys themselves.
3) Despite the fact that the petals have cutouts for an active capture latch mechanism - the structural ring has no accommodations for a sealing surface. AFAIK, there was no APAS variant built with both an active capture latch system AND a lack of mating seals.
Everything 'APAS' you see in that photo could have been copied by looking at photographs or assembly level drawings of the APAS and nothing more.
-
I presume that either the number "2" or the number "1.95" was not supposed to be in that equation, otherwise I can't figure it out.
Whops! That's supposed to be 0.95, which makes for a diameter of 3.23 m, which makes a whole more sense...
-
China to launch unmanned module in 2nd half of 2011 for maiden space docking: expert (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-03/01/c_13756120.htm).
-
http://you.video.sina.com.cn/api/sinawebApi/outplayrefer.php/vid=47473799_1047453724_O063SyY5W2DK+l1lHz2stqkP7KQNt6nkiW6zv1enIgxdQ0/XM5GdZdkA4y7fCdkEqDhAQJ87cv0h3hQ/s.swf
Some new video footage.
-
From Xinhua, China's Tiangong-1 to be launched by modified Long March II-F rocket (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-03/03/c_13759805.htm).
-
Picture update on TG-1: http://astronautique.actifforum.com/t6627p120-chine-futur-vol-chinois-shenzhou-8-9-10-tiangong-1-2011#232539
Also a screenshot appears, which to me looks like Zhai Zhigang climbing on board Shenzhou-8...
-
That is an APAS.
A strange looking one, though. And maybe not fully assembled.
For comparison, the hybrid adapter on the Zvezda module is shown.
-
I wonder if there was a trade - APAS for some 3.3 meter hulls? This looks to be a 3.3 meter diameter for the pressurized section.
-
TianGong-1 has completed the thermal vacuum tests on the KM6 vacuum test chamber.
-
Here's the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_cdcq8lg70&feature=youtu.be
-
From Xinhua, China sees smooth preparation for launch of unmanned module in 2nd half of this year (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-04/29/c_13852373.htm).
-
Comparision between Chinese space station design, Mir and ISS
-
The Chinese space station is not called Tiangong; that name is reserved for the experimental series of orbital labs.
The name for the station is subject of a current competition among the general public.
The design of Tiangong will be the base for the cargo spaceship that is to service the station.
-
Comparision between TianGong, Mir and ISS
One things to note
TianGong is not the Chinese multimodule spacestation, TianGong is free flying spacelab, the large space station has yet to be named, and expected launch still 10 years from now
no Bigelow Space Station?
-
Model of TiangGong-1 at display on the China Beijing International High-Tech Fair.
-
Thirty names have been selected for the new chinese space freighter. These names have been proposed by the public and are now available for votting at http://cmse.gov.cn/cmssname/list.php?catid=373 (in chinese). The new name will be announce officially at the end of June or at the beginning of July. Results page is available at http://page.vote.qq.com/?id=1104688&result=yes. The list of names is (with pinyin and english on-line translation - corrections are welcomed):
天梭 Tian Suo Day shuttle
天马 Tian Ma Pegasus / White fox
云梯 Yun Ti Scaling ladder
行者 Xing Zhe Walker / Traveler
天舟 Tian Zhou Day boat
天济 Tian Ji Day Jinan
远征 Yuan Zheng - Expedition
神龙 Shen Long - Dragon
金梭 Jin Suo -
先锋 Xian Feng - Pioneer
前进 Qian Jin - Forward
耕耘者 Geng Yun Zhe - Cultivators
天阶 Tian Jie Day order
华舟 Hua Zhou -
祥云 Xiang Yun - Clouds
神驹 Shen Ju - Stallion
神驼 Shen Tuo Camel of God
龙舟 Long Zhou Dragon boat
能量 Neng Liang - Energy
彩虹 Cai Hong - Rainbow
鲲鹏 Kun Peng -
进取 Jin Qu - Aggressive
凌云 Ling Yun -
翔宇 Xiang Yu - Flies in circles the space
风驰 Feng Chi The wind spreads
紫云 Zi Yun
天路 Tian Lu Days Road
龙骧 Long Xiang
天运 Tian Yun Days of operation
神骥 Shen Ji God Ji
-
Press release sent on behalf of the the International Astronautical Federation (IAF)
IAF Press Conference: IAF Flag en route to Tiangong 1
Paris, France (IAF PR 06-2011), 15 June 2011 - The International Astronautical Federation (IAF) announces its press conference at this year's International Paris Air Show Le Bourget. In celebration of the IAF's 60th anniversary, the Federation will present its flag, which has just returned from the International Space Station, to the Chinese delegation who will fly it upon Tiangong later this year. This will be followed by officials from China ’s space programme giving an update on their plans.
On the occasion of its 60th anniversary, the Federation sent its flag by Soyuz to the International Space Station in December, returning on the final flight of Space Shuttle Endeavour. The same flag will have been flown in weightlessness, Moon and Mars reduced gravity on the Novespace A300 ZERO-G flight in company of ESA and CNES representatives and French parliamentarians on Tuesday 21 June. By 2011's close, our flag will have been flown with all nations having an active human spaceflight programme, showing the unique global reach of the International Astronautical Federation.
At Le Bourget, Prof. Dr Feuerbacher will hand over the IAF flag to the Chinese delegation and it will then be flown on Tiangong 1 later this year. Tiangong 1 is an 8.5 tonne space laboratory - the first of three Chinese Tiangong flights over the coming years.
The press conference will be held at 10:00 on Thursday 23 June 2011 on-board the Novespace A300 ZERO-G aeroplane. The presentation of the flag will be followed by CMSEO and CSA outlining China's current spaceflight plans, Jean-François Clervoy will present the Novespace parabolic in-flight research activities, and the entire panel will answer questions from the press conference attendees.
Conference panellists include:
- Zhai Zhigang, the Chinese taikonaut who became the first Chinese citizen to carry out a spacewalk during the Shenzhou 7 mission
- A top-level delegation from the China Manned Space Engineering Office (CMSEO) and Chinese Society of Astronautics (CSA)
- Berndt Feuerbacher, President of the International Astronautical Federation
- Jean-François Clervoy, an ESA astronaut veteran of three NASA Space Shuttle missions and President of Novespace
Location: Novespace A300 ZERO-G aeroplane at the Paris Air Show, Le Bourget , France
Date: Thursday 23 June 2011
Time: 10:00
Contact: Juliane McCarty
T: +33 1 45 67 55 97
E: [email protected]
-
Did any new information come out of yesterdays press conference at Le Bourget?
-
Did any new information come out of yesterdays press conference at Le Bourget?
I've been check all the usual places and the more general news sites, both in English and Chinese and there's not a single mention of it..........makes one wonder if it actually happened!
-
From Xinhua, China's first module of planned space station to undergo final testing before launch (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-06/30/c_13959133.htm).
TianGong-1 is in Jiuquan!!!
-
Tiangong-1 launch - 3-rd quarter, Shenzhou-8 - 4-th quarter.
http://russian.news.cn/science/2011-07/01/c_13959375.htm
-
From People's Daily, Tiangong 1 about to launch (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90881/7426647.html).
-
From People's Daily, Tiangong 1 about to launch (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90881/7426647.html).
Good. Hope all goes well with this mission as well as SZ-8.
-
How much time do they usually give between announcing the launch date and launch? They are making it sound like it will launch within a few weeks.
-
How much time do they usually give between announcing the launch date and launch? They are making it sound like it will launch within a few weeks.
From the article above quater 3 for tiangong-1. Quater 4 for the unmanned craft that wil attempt docking.
-
http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/time-enough-for-tiangong-1-space-lab.html
-
Launch preparations of TianGong-1...
http://you.video.sina.com.cn/api/sinawebApi/outplayrefer.php/vid=57078433_1_ak/jSCMxW2DK+l1lHz2stqkM7KQNt6nknynt71+iJApbVAyIZorfO4kK5S7WB8dG8m8/s.swf
-
The most interesting part of the animation is that the station will include an arm that will move the modules around the node. How will they handle the docking/berthing difference, is beyond me.
-
The most interesting part of the animation is that the station will include an arm that will move the modules around the node. How will they handle the docking/berthing difference, is beyond me.
Mir had a similar arm used for the same purpose. Note that the current Tiangong does not have such an arm.
-
The most interesting part of the animation is that the station will include an arm that will move the modules around the node. How will they handle the docking/berthing difference, is beyond me.
Mir had a similar arm used for the same purpose. Note that the current Tiangong does not have such an arm.
If I'm not mistaken, it was on the second module, the one that brought the node.
-
Well, looks like things are going forwards...
Anyone know if the following is still correct:
- Tiangong-1 launches in summer 2011
- Shenzhou-8 launches (unmanned) in late 2011 and docks with Tiangong-1
- Shenzhou-9 launches in 2012 and brings crew to TG1-SZ8 complex
- Shenzhou-10 does the same some time later
-
Well, looks like things are going forwards...
Anyone know if the following is still correct:
- Tiangong-1 launches in summer 2011
- Shenzhou-8 launches (unmanned) in late 2011 and docks with Tiangong-1
- Shenzhou-9 launches in 2012 and brings crew to TG1-SZ8 complex
- Shenzhou-10 does the same some time later
SZ-8 will return one or two weeks later so SZ-9 will only dock with TG-1.
-
The most interesting part of the animation is that the station will include an arm that will move the modules around the node. How will they handle the docking/berthing difference, is beyond me.
Mir had a similar arm used for the same purpose. Note that the current Tiangong does not have such an arm.
This is the modular station projected for the 2020's.
-
SZ-8 will return one or two weeks later so SZ-9 will only dock with TG-1.
Thanks for that, I was wondering if they were planing on keeping it there. Will SZ-8(9) bring a docking node or was that just future station planning.
-
According to CMSE site (http://www.cmse.gov.cn/), the CZ-2F Chanf Zheng-2F launch vehicle that is going to be used for the TG-1 launch arrived at the Jiuquan satellite Launch Center on July 23.
The preparatory works for the launch are going smooth. This CZ-2F has 170 technical changes, including five new technologies that will be used for the first time.
-
SZ-8 will return one or two weeks later so SZ-9 will only dock with TG-1.
Thanks for that, I was wondering if they were planing on keeping it there. Will SZ-8(9) bring a docking node or was that just future station planning.
All indications are that Tiangong 1 will only host one visiting spacecraft at once, so a docking node is not required.
I assume that between the Tiangong missions and the modular space station, a variant of the latter's core module will be flown as a Salyut 6/7 class station (but up to 20% heavier), with a single docking port at each end.
Also, the multi-port docking node looks to be an integral part of the modular space station core, just as happened with Mir.
-
According to CMSE site (http://www.cmse.gov.cn/), the CZ-2F Chanf Zheng-2F launch vehicle that is going to be used for the TG-1 launch arrived at the Jiuquan satellite Launch Center on July 23.
The preparatory works for the launch are going smooth. This CZ-2F has 170 technical changes, including five new technologies that will be used for the first time.
Trawling back through the SZ-7 launch thread, the booster was delivered about 6 weeks prior to the eventual launch, so if that interval was repeated, we are looking at a launch in early to mid September. That would be at the more optimistic end of recent predictions.
-
Trawling back through the SZ-7 launch thread, the booster was delivered about 6 weeks prior to the eventual launch, so if that interval was repeated, we are looking at a launch in early to mid September. That would be at the more optimistic end of recent predictions.
It seems that launch will already happen mid to end August.
http://china.huanqiu.com/info/2011-07/1852579.html
-
Trawling back through the SZ-7 launch thread, the booster was delivered about 6 weeks prior to the eventual launch, so if that interval was repeated, we are looking at a launch in early to mid September. That would be at the more optimistic end of recent predictions.
It seems that launch will already happen mid to end August.
http://china.huanqiu.com/info/2011-07/1852579.html
The picture with this source seems to give a realistic depiction of the Tiangong size compared with Shenzhou - although the latter does look to be a little long.
-
I have just been looking at SinoDefence. com and they are stating that Tiangong 1 will not have any life support and that the crews of Shenzhou 9 and 10 will not be entering the space lab. Tiangong 2 will be the first to be occupied by a crew.
Maybe this story is due to a misunderstanding, but I had always thought that Tiangong 1 would be occupied. Perhaps there is some confusion with Shenzhou 8 being unmanned and thus there isn't a crew to occupy the space lab on that flight?
-
Trawling back through the SZ-7 launch thread, the booster was delivered about 6 weeks prior to the eventual launch, so if that interval was repeated, we are looking at a launch in early to mid September. That would be at the more optimistic end of recent predictions.
It seems that launch will already happen mid to end August.
http://china.huanqiu.com/info/2011-07/1852579.html
Am I the only one who thinks that Tiangdong looks suspiciously like FGB?
-
Trawling back through the SZ-7 launch thread, the booster was delivered about 6 weeks prior to the eventual launch, so if that interval was repeated, we are looking at a launch in early to mid September. That would be at the more optimistic end of recent predictions.
It seems that launch will already happen mid to end August.
http://china.huanqiu.com/info/2011-07/1852579.html
Am I the only one who thinks that Tiangdong looks suspiciously like FGB?
Two cylinders stuck together with a single pair of solar panels are bound to look like something else!!
-
I have just been looking at SinoDefence. com and they are stating that Tiangong 1 will not have any life support and that the crews of Shenzhou 9 and 10 will not be entering the space lab. Tiangong 2 will be the first to be occupied by a crew.
Maybe this story is due to a misunderstanding, but I had always thought that Tiangong 1 would be occupied. Perhaps there is some confusion with Shenzhou 8 being unmanned and thus there isn't a crew to occupy the space lab on that flight?
I haven't seen that information anywhere else. Other sources state that there will be "manned missions to Tiangong 1." There's probably a misunderstanding as you said.
-
I have just been looking at SinoDefence. com and they are stating that Tiangong 1 will not have any life support and that the crews of Shenzhou 9 and 10 will not be entering the space lab. Tiangong 2 will be the first to be occupied by a crew.
Maybe this story is due to a misunderstanding, but I had always thought that Tiangong 1 would be occupied. Perhaps there is some confusion with Shenzhou 8 being unmanned and thus there isn't a crew to occupy the space lab on that flight?
Agreed about a probable error on SinoDefence.com, but I thought I would report the story here.
I haven't seen that information anywhere else. Other sources state that there will be "manned missions to Tiangong 1." There's probably a misunderstanding as you said.
-
I have just been looking at SinoDefence. com and they are stating that Tiangong 1 will not have any life support and that the crews of Shenzhou 9 and 10 will not be entering the space lab. Tiangong 2 will be the first to be occupied by a crew.
Maybe this story is due to a misunderstanding, but I had always thought that Tiangong 1 would be occupied. Perhaps there is some confusion with Shenzhou 8 being unmanned and thus there isn't a crew to occupy the space lab on that flight?
A few weeks ago the IAF handed flags which have already flown on Shuttle, Soyuz and ISS to the Chinese, to be launched on TG-1 and returned to earth by a SZ crew next year.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43898035/ns/technology_and_science-space/
Obviously, to recover the flags, at least one taikonaut will need to enter TG-1.
That said, it is not in conceivable that SZ-9 might simply dock and SZ-10
be the full occupation of the TG-1. As far as I can tell though, no earlier reports have suggested this, so probably just mis-reporting, which ofcourse we've never known before with Chinese matters!
-
TianGong-1 will be launched at the end of August: http://www.cast.cn/CastCn/Show.asp?ArticleID=39828
-
While it's clear that TG-1 will support development of critical technologies for the follow-on Mir-class space station [as yet unnamed] I suggest we keep our minds open to what capabilities the TG-class space vehicle adds to Chinese human space flight.Otherwise, the full development cost may be unexplainable, especially since merely demonstrating space docking could have been accomplished with two Shenzhou vehicles, a la the double Soyuz dockings of 1967-1969.
How about this idea? It's a mission module for extending Shenzhou in-space dwell time, independent of the follow-on space station.
And why would that cabability be worth the new-vehicle development cost? Imagine a Tiangong vehicle launched on a LM-5 in the 2015 time frame. The Tiangong module could remain attached to the LM-5 upper stage which would have considerable extra delta-V remaining.
Next step is a reprise of the missions to be practiced next year. The module would be docked to by a manned Shenzhou, perhaps even only a 2-person [or one person] if consumables are tight.
You now have a Chinese humanned vehicle capable of departing LEO for any number of BEO destinations on 3-4 week or longer expeditions.
Lunar fly-by [or high orbit] is the obvious first candidate, just to check off that box. GEO is another. A visit to a GPS/GLONASS plane would be particularly impressive.
With expanded consumables and delta-V, incremental improvements could make human access to Sun-Earth-L2 feasible before the end of this decade -- for China, of course.
When assessing secret intentions, it's often helpful to assess visible capabilities development. What if we consider Tiangong to NOT be a one-off special-purpose vehicle that will never fly again, but a new member of the Chinese human spaceflight stable?
An alternate recent suggestion [Morris Jones, http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Why_Tiangong_is_not_a_Station_Hub_999.html] is that it is a 'Chinese Progress'. That would require signficant translational capability in the form of thrusters providing redundant authority in all axes. Since such a capability is dicey as an add-on later in a vehicle flight history, it might be helpful to assess how many thrusters of this type can be seen on the up-coming TG in photographs.
-
Hummm, I think the 'Chinese Progress' is another vehicle. China started a national contest to give it a independent designation.
I know that it wouldn't be very effective (China has already developed different programs for it), but what about TianGong being something like the US MOL?
-
I think testing things like attitude control, atmospheric equipment, Rendezvous and docking, waste and hygiene, and generally testing how to run a station for a long time rather than the short duration Shenzhou. We take for granted the experience we and the Russians gained from our old station programs in terms of management, something for which the Chinese have none. So for right now, a Salyut 1 type of mission seems entirely logical. In fact, I guess this is more of a Salyut 6 program in light of the autonomous docking, however without the second docking port.
Think the spacecraft itself will be more of a Chinese TKS module.
-
Responding to JimO's long posting, ever since the first pictures appeared of the Chinese space stations using Salyut-class modules, I have considered Tiangong to be intended to fullfil the role of the Progress cargo freighters.
Since they are physically larger then Shenzhou it would make sense for them to be used as an addition living/working area simply to allow the Chinese to gain experience in dockings and flights longer than a few days. I think that the Chinese have hinted that flights to Tiangong 1 would last ~2 weeks.
There seem to be three launches of Tiangongs in these roles planned, presumably with the visits being increased to maybe a month or so.
After that, perhaps a module like Salyut 6/7 launched atop the CZ-5 which could then have Tianging switching to its cargo freighter mode, supporing single crews on the space station. Being larger than Progress, Tiangong would need less frequent launches - maybe only one a year. I think it would be too early to expect rotating crews as we saw on Mir.
Of course, only time will tell how much of all of this speculation comes true. While we might look towards the old Soviet space programme as guidance for Chinese plans, we should expect major differences since I am sure that the Chinese have no intentions of simply copying what others have done.
-
It has been officially announced that Tiangong will be upgraded to a cargo vehicle to service the Mir-class station.
See People's Daily, announced by a top official of the manned program:
http://scitech.people.com.cn/GB/25509/55912/55913/55916/8924992.html
-
It has been officially announced that Tiangong will be upgraded to a cargo vehicle to service the Mir-class station.
See People's Daily, announced by a top official of the manned program:
http://scitech.people.com.cn/GB/25509/55912/55913/55916/8924992.html
The only thing I can learn from this Chinese-language link is
2009年03月08日09:36 来源
which I presume tells us the article is two years old.
Thanks for all the constructive responses.
We can expect more candor as the launch approaches.
-
Yes, it's two years old. It shows that how limited the outside world knows about the Chinese space program, although it becomes more and more open and transparent. I estimated that more than half of public information in Chinese language about the Chinese space program is not translated and reported in the West. BTW, this forum is definitely the most informative English source about the Chinese space program on Internet.
-
Launch will probably take place on August 30 (LT).
-
Launch will probably take place on August 30 (LT).
Soon have two occupied and operating space bases in orbit at once - for the first time ever. Even though Tianging 1 won't be permanently occupied, of course.
-
Launch will probably take place on August 30 (LT).
Soon have two occupied and operating space bases in orbit at once - for the first time ever. Even though Tianging 1 won't be permanently occupied, of course.
I believe that Mir and ISS both were occupied and operating (in some fashion) at the same time.
-
Launch will probably take place on August 30 (LT).
Soon have two occupied and operating space bases in orbit at once - for the first time ever. Even though Tianging 1 won't be permanently occupied, of course.
I believe that Mir and ISS both were occupied and operating (in some fashion) at the same time.
I pondered about that: there were shuttle visits to the embryonic ISS while Mir was occupied but not actual crew residencies. Maybe I am splitting hairs here!
-
Mir: The crew loaded their results into Soyuz TM-29 and departed Mir on 28 August 1999, ending a run of continuous occupation of the station which had lasted for eight days short of ten years.[15] The station's gyrodynes and main computer were shut down on 7 September, leaving Progress M-42 to control Mir and refine the station's orbital decay rate.
ISS: The first resident crew, Expedition 1, arrived in November 2000 on Soyuz TM-31, midway between the flights of STS-92 and STS-97.
-
I believe that Mir and ISS both were occupied and operating (in some fashion) at the same time.
The last crew for Mir left 16 June 2000, and the Expedition 1 crew arrived at ISS on 2 November 2000. So while a few shuttle flights did visit ISS while Mir crew were still onboard, it really was not "occupied". The depressurized and decaying Salyut 2 was in orbit when Skylab was launched while the former reentered 14 days later.
However the first Mir crew also visited Salyut 7, so one could state that was the first time there were two occupied stations in orbit, although they had the same crew. However, there have been multiple occasions when the shuttle with SPacelab/Spacehab have been in orbit while a Soviet/Russian crew has been on station, so that could count (the mission duration for EDO flights was almost as long as early station flights)
Edit: aspace, forgot about Soyuz TM-30
-
Some sources say that the launch can take place on August 25.
-
Soon have two occupied and operating space bases in orbit at once - for the first time ever. Even though Tianging 1 won't be permanently occupied, of course.
By soon you mean after three successful launches, right? TG-1 and SZ-8 fly first, and only then will SZ-9 bring the first TG-1 expedition members? And all of these will be on Long March 2F launch vehicles?
-
Soon have two occupied and operating space bases in orbit at once - for the first time ever. Even though Tianging 1 won't be permanently occupied, of course.
By soon you mean after three successful launches, right? TG-1 and SZ-8 fly first, and only then will SZ-9 bring the first TG-1 expedition members? And all of these will be on Long March 2F launch vehicles?
Yes, probably in the first six months of next year. As I originally indicated, the Tiangong crews will be short visiting missions, and nothing like a permanent residency as Mir and ISS have had.
I was definitely thinking of it being the first time that two separate space labs/stations have been occupied at the same time, which is why I discounted Mir and the crew visit to Salyut 7: potentially, in 1973 the Russians could have had Salyut 2 and "Salyut 3"/Cosmos 557 occupied at the same time that Skylab crews were in orbit.
It could be argued that the first shuttle visit to ISS/Zarya "occupied" the station but I think that is pushing the dea of having a resident crew on board!
I am not sure about your point about about all of the launches being aboard the CZ-2F derived vehicles, though.
-
I was definitely thinking of it being the first time that two separate space labs/stations have been occupied at the same time
Yes, this is a fun observation, and it will be interesting to see if the general public begin to view it as a new "space race" of some sort.
TG-1 and SZ-8 fly first, and only then will SZ-9 bring the first TG-1 expedition members? And all of these will be on Long March 2F launch vehicles?
I am not sure about your point about about all of the launches being aboard the CZ-2F derived vehicles, though.
I'm wondering if the launch tempo for that system could be a constraining factor. From the launch record it appears the shortest interval between two CZ-2F launches has been 9 months. Is there reason to believe the system can launch missions at a faster rate than that?
-
Launch will probably take place on August 30 (LT).
Soon have two occupied and operating space bases in orbit at once - for the first time ever. Even though Tianging 1 won't be permanently occupied, of course.
I believe that Mir and ISS both were occupied and operating (in some fashion) at the same time.
I pondered about that: there were shuttle visits to the embryonic ISS while Mir was occupied but not actual crew residencies. Maybe I am splitting hairs here!
I don't think that we are going to count Tiangong-1 as a space station being occupied by a crew any more than the LM was a space station. Its a cargo ship being tested by a crew, that's all.
-
TG-1 and SZ-8 fly first, and only then will SZ-9 bring the first TG-1 expedition members? And all of these will be on Long March 2F launch vehicles?
I thought SZ-9 and 10 were supposed to go on the new CZ-2F/H launch vehicle? Using kerolox instead of hypergolic propellant with an increase in payload to about 11.5 mT to LEO (required because those flights are supposed to use the final production Shenzhou which is somewhat larger and heavier and beyond the capacity of the hypergolic CZ-2F)?
At least that's what I thought.
-
MSNBC.com: "China poised to launch its first space lab sooner than expected (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44168426/ns/technology_and_science-space/#.Tks3hmP85zQ)". Has a diagram.
-
Long ago, the month of August was known as the 'silly season' for the news media, since senior staff were usually on vacation and excitable, relatively shallow neophytes ran the press rooms. Are we seeing this effect with the growing hype and panic over Tiangong? And can we imagine the harm to long term international space activities if the 'first impressions' -- which usually retain a hold on the public's minds [and on politicians] long after they have been refuted by reality -- are as delusional and misleading as most of these stories, some from spokesmen with transparent ideological agendas [at all ends of the spectrum]?
Can we take off our drum-beater hats and put back on our engineering and space operations hats? Instead of imagining what the goals of China's space program MUST be and then deducing the purpose of the new Tiangong vehicle in promoting those goals, can we approach the mystery from the opposite end? What capabilities does Tiangong add to Shenzhou, that require the development effort for a new vehicle?
And from these analyses, can we see what goals become feasible, and then what the underlying motivations may have been for deciding to build the Tiangong?
-
And from these analyses, can we see what goals become feasible, and then what the underlying motivations may have been for deciding to build the Tiangong?
Isn't it obvious? China's declared manned spaceflight objective is to build a manned, permanently-staffed spacestation by the beginning of the next decade. From what we know, it is to be grossly similar to the Mir. This means on-orbit rendez-vous, docking and assembly. The Chinese don't have these skills yet so they need to develop and test them first. That's what Tiangong is for.
The Chinese seem to be following the Soviet path of the 70s and 80s. With Mir being the ultimate objective, the Tiangongs will play the part of the different Salyuts (and China will be smart enough not to be distracted by pointless stuff like military Almaz stations) and maybe Progresses.
-
And from these analyses, can we see what goals become feasible, and then what the underlying motivations may have been for deciding to build the Tiangong?
Isn't it obvious? China's declared manned spaceflight objective is to build a manned, permanently-staffed spacestation by the beginning of the next decade. From what we know, it is to be grossly similar to the Mir. This means on-orbit rendez-vous, docking and assembly.
They could have demonstrated rendezvous and docking with a dual Shenzhou mission. I think the answer can be seen from SZ-6 (a mission with two crew members lasting five days) and SZ-7 (a mission with three crew members lasting three days). Tiangong has the potential to add the ECLSS capability needed for longer mission durations.
-
Instead of imagining what the goals of China's space program MUST be and then deducing the purpose of the new Tiangong vehicle in promoting those goals, can we approach the mystery from the opposite end? What capabilities does Tiangong add to Shenzhou, that require the development effort for a new vehicle?
I see this as having an extremely simple answer - maybe so simple that you missed it Jim.
The Chinese goal is a Mir-type modular space station but they cannot launch such a station until the CZ-5 launch vehicle comes online and has had 1-2 test flights.
Therefore the Chinese decided to develop a cargo-carrier for the future space station which they could also use as a small space base to host visits by Shenzhou crews. That cargo carrier is Tiangong.
With Tiangong in orbit the Chinese can fly longer missions with three people than would be comfortable inside a Shenzhou on a solo mission. Experiments/equipment can be launched inside Tiangong and used by more than one crew, rather than throwing them away in the orbital module at the end of a solo Shenzhou flight. And it flight-proves Tiangong and Shenzhou for the longer flights that a 25-tonnes space station will be able to support.
For me the major question is whether we will really see three Tiangong space labs, then a Salyut 6/7 class station (with Tiangong in its cargo freighter role) and then around 2020 the modular space station which always seems to be depicted as having a core module and two plug-on modules in the 25-tonnes class - with Shenzhou docked at the front with the modules and Tiangong at the back. To my knowledge the Chinese have not mentioned a Salyut 6/7 class mission, although it would be logical (by my pointed ears).
It is so simple that maybe it's ME who's missing something obvious, of course .....
-
Thanks, Phil. I felt there was a stampede of group-think that needed a recapitulation of the reasoning that led us to these conclusions.
Something that is 'obvious' can indeed also be true, and the high degree of Chinese official openness on their hardware and their strategic thinking is encouraging -- so much better than the old 'Soviet sleuthing' days. I don't detect any indication of intent to mislead on the big themes, although some projects remain non-disclosed.
If the purpose was merely rendezvous and docking testing, the earlier comment that two Shenzhou vehicles would do the trick is spot on. If it were merely extended-duration hardware testing, the Shenzhou orbital module is a fine platform.
Arguably, Tiangong was built for something more -- and longer manned mission support, as suggested by a recent poster, seems logical.
The unanswered question remains -- what KIND of longer mission? In what kind of orbit?
And to re-raise another point: we now have seen some high-quality photos of Tiangong. If it is indeed a future active docking vehicle, it should have extensive thrusters for all-axis translational control, in particular in the -X [braking] direction. Do we see such thrusters, or not?.
-
We have seen animations from the time of the Zhenzhou 5 flight which showed a Shenzhou docking with the discarded orbital module from presumably the previous flight. I think that the Chinese originally panned to do this as perhaps Shenzhou 6-7 but then dropped the idea before Shenzhou 6 flew. If their budget was tight it might have made more sense for them to go straight to Tiangong for docking experience.
As for the orbit - well apart from Shenzhou 1, all of the flights have manoeuvred to a 31 circuit repeating orbit, so why change that? It worked for the "civil" Salyuts and Mir for part of its mission.
Oh, and not calling Tiangong a space lab/mini space station is rather like Leonid Vladimirov saying that Salyut (1) was not a space station because it only hosted one crew and it was smaller than Skylab! If the Chinese use it as an orbiting space base for flights of 2-3 weeks then it's a small space station.
-
I think that the Salyut 6/7-class mission will be Tiangong 3, which is due to be launched around 2016.
The three Tiangong modules are not identical. So there is a possibility that the last Tiangong module may have more than 1 docking port to allow a Shenzhou and (possibly) a cargo ship docked simultaneously
-
I think that the Salyut 6/7-class mission will be Tiangong 3, which is due to be launched around 2016.
The three Tiangong modules are not identical. So there is a possibility that the last Tiangong module may have more than 1 docking port to allow a Shenzhou and (possibly) a cargo ship docked simultaneously
From what you say, TianGong might be a generic name for the space labs and space stations, the way that Salyut was used for the Almaz and DOS series. It would make sense not to have three missions like Tiangong 1, simply because although useful this spacecraft has quite limited capabilities as a space base.
In fact, I wonder about Tiangong 2 - if it's the same design as Tiangong 1, what can it do, apart from repeat what has already been done? It would be nice if it were to be a Salyut class module, but of couse the CZ-5 won't be ready in time for that!
-
Chinese media reporting that TG-1 will launch next Thursday (25th) despite yesterday's failure.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-08/19/c_131060996.htm
-
Chinese media reporting that TG-1 will launch next Thursday (25th) despite yesterday's failure.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-08/19/c_131060996.htm
The story doesn't actually say that Tiangong 1 will launch next Thursday ....... just that the launch failure will not affet the planned launch schedule.
-
TG-1 will launch on August 29/30.
-
Chinese media reporting that TG-1 will launch next Thursday (25th) despite yesterday's failure.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-08/19/c_131060996.htm
The story doesn't actually say that Tiangong 1 will launch next Thursday ....... just that the launch failure will not affet the planned launch schedule.
Sorry, i misread the reference to 'Thursday' in the first paragraph!
It was very early in the day here!!
-
There are rumors that the TG-1 launch was effectively delayed to October.
-
There are rumors that the TG-1 launch was effectively delayed to October.
Since Shenzhou 8 is supposed to come two months after the Tiangong 1 launch, I guess that will now be in December this year or January next year.
-
There are rumors that the TG-1 launch was effectively delayed to October.
Since Shenzhou 8 is supposed to come two months after the Tiangong 1 launch, I guess that will now be in December this year or January next year.
Yes, Phillip, that will be the case if TG-1 is delayed. On the other side, and without any official announcement, many believe the launch take place next week.
-
My understanding is that Tiangong is the generic name for all three Space Lab missions, but the permanently-manned multi-modular space station will have a different name.
I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where) that the goals of the three Space Lab missions are:
TG-1: to test the rendezvous docking technique
TG-2: to develop the necessary technologies (water and oxygen regeneration) necessary for short-term stay in the orbit and to carry out some scientific experiments
TG-3: to develop the technologies necessary for medium- to long-term orbit stay and to carry out more sophisticated scientific researches and experiments
I think that the Salyut 6/7-class mission will be Tiangong 3, which is due to be launched around 2016.
The three Tiangong modules are not identical. So there is a possibility that the last Tiangong module may have more than 1 docking port to allow a Shenzhou and (possibly) a cargo ship docked simultaneously
From what you say, TianGong might be a generic name for the space labs and space stations, the way that Salyut was used for the Almaz and DOS series. It would make sense not to have three missions like Tiangong 1, simply because although useful this spacecraft has quite limited capabilities as a space base.
In fact, I wonder about Tiangong 2 - if it's the same design as Tiangong 1, what can it do, apart from repeat what has already been done? It would be nice if it were to be a Salyut class module, but of couse the CZ-5 won't be ready in time for that!
-
Somewhere (a wonderfully large place whose location is very imprecise!) I have read that the manned visits to Tiangong 1 would be for the order of two weeks or so. If Tiangong 2 is the same sized module I am not sure how much longer a crew of three could remain on board - 1-2 months? Then Salyut DOS/Tiangong 3 up to six months perhaps?
The speed and capabilities of China's manned programme are often derided but on their fourth manned flight the Chinese aim to complete orbital docking and transfer to a space lab. The Soviets' fourth manned flight lasted three days with no dockings, while the US fourth flight was three orbits of the Earth. So the Chinese progress is very impressive. Of course, they can draw on everyone else's experience in planning their programme.
-
There are rumors that the TG-1 launch was effectively delayed to October.
Since Shenzhou 8 is supposed to come two months after the Tiangong 1 launch, I guess that will now be in December this year or January next year.
Yes, Phillip, that will be the case if TG-1 is delayed. On the other side, and without any official announcement, many believe the launch take place next week.
I thought the TG-1 launch was always (well, at least for the past year) supposed to be in October 2011? I was actually very surprised when speculation about a late August launch suddenly popped up.
-
There are rumors that the TG-1 launch was effectively delayed to October.
Since Shenzhou 8 is supposed to come two months after the Tiangong 1 launch, I guess that will now be in December this year or January next year.
Yes, Phillip, that will be the case if TG-1 is delayed. On the other side, and without any official announcement, many believe the launch take place next week.
I thought the TG-1 launch was always (well, at least for the past year) supposed to be in October 2011? I was actually very surprised when speculation about a late August launch suddenly popped up.
Most of the rumour, conjecture and speculation had pointed towards a TG-1 launch in October, but the focus changed about a month ago when the Chinese announced that both TG-1 and the launcher were at the launch site. So, in a sense, this possible delay may only take us back to the time frame we were all anticipating.
If TG-1 is delayed until October then it seems inevitable that SZ-8 will be delayed by a similar period. However, it will be interesting to see if they can then maintain the schedule for the manned flights of SZ-9 and SZ-10. Presumably, the planned gaps between missions are/were driven as much by the supply chain for the hardware, as by the operational need to have specified gaps between the various TG-1 related flights. Any delay now seems unlikely to impact that supply chain, so the hardware will presumably still be available on the original planned dates, wherever they may be!
-
According to a Hong Kong daily, Tiangong-1 launch will be delayed until at least mid-September due to the recent launch failure.
(source (http://www.zaobao.com/wencui/2011/08/hongkong110823.shtml))
-
It will be interesting to see what rendezvous profile is used for the Shenzhou dockings to Tiangong.
Going back to the Soviet era, the first unmanned dockings were within a few hours of the second spacecraft being launched: then for manned missions (Soyuz 4/Soyuz 5, dockings with Salyuts) a gap of ~25 hours became normal, although this has increased to ~49 hours.
Since the orbit circularisation burn takes place about 7 hours after launch on Shenzhou flights, we could see the docking take place less than 12 hours after the Shenzhou launch. SZ8 might take longer than normal and then the time interval could decrease for the "operational" missions.
I am assuming that Tiangong will be maintained in a 31 circuit repeating orbit, which is what we have seen on all of the Shenzhou flights, starting with the second one.
-
It will be interesting to see what rendezvous profile is used for the Shenzhou dockings to Tiangong.
Going back to the Soviet era, the first unmanned dockings were within a few hours of the second spacecraft being launched: then for manned missions (Soyuz 4/Soyuz 5, dockings with Salyuts) a gap of ~25 hours became normal, although this has increased to ~49 hours.
Since the orbit circularisation burn takes place about 7 hours after launch on Shenzhou flights, we could see the docking take place less than 12 hours after the Shenzhou launch. SZ8 might take longer than normal and then the time interval could decrease for the "operational" missions.
I am assuming that Tiangong will be maintained in a 31 circuit repeating orbit, which is what we have seen on all of the Shenzhou flights, starting with the second one.
But I think the driver for the faster than today docking approaches was the limited live of the early Soyuz. And the chinese has already showed, that they can operate their capsules for a much more longer time, especially the orbital module.
-
The special page of the People's Daily for the TianGong-1 launch can be found in here: http://scitech.people.com.cn/tg-1/
-
An interesting small video that shows the arrival of the CZ-2F for TG-1 to the Jiuquan satellite Launch Center together with a few shots of TG-1: http://tv.people.com.cn/GB/166419/15226823.html
-
Recent news say that TG-1 can be launched on the first days of September... more or less... http://scitech.people.com.cn/GB/15492284.html (in Chinese).
-
Recent news say that TG-1 can be launched on the first days of September... more or less... http://scitech.people.com.cn/GB/15492284.html (in Chinese).
Thanks Rui for your great work finding all these links.
Here is an English language report saying more or less the same thing:-
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90882/7578878.html
It looks quite hopeful that any delay to TG-1 will be quite short, as I can't imagine the Chinese would be allowing these media reports to go out if they weren't fairly confident of launching in the next couple of weeks.
-
China 'set to launch rival to International Space Station' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/8719478/China-set-to-launch-rival-to-International-Space-Station.html). Do they know what China is going to launch?
-
China 'set to launch rival to International Space Station' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/8719478/China-set-to-launch-rival-to-International-Space-Station.html). Do they know what China is going to launch?
Yes, the report says that TianGong-1 "will form the test-bed for a larger 60-ton space station which is China wants to have in orbit by the early 2020s."
I agree the headline is misleading, but I think Foster has his facts straight.
-
Space lab prototype blasts off (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/202936/7579506.html); Launch in early September.
-
Space lab prototype blasts off (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/202936/7579506.html); Launch in early September.
"According to the China National Space Administration (CNSA), Tiangong-1 is an eight-ton-class space lab prototype with a cylinder-shaped body and two docking ports on its ends."
Is it correct? I thought Tiangong-1 had just one docking port.
-
According to http://www.spacechina.com/xwzx_tpxw_Details.shtml?recno=78393, on August 17 there was a launch rehearsal for the launch of TG-1.
-
Space lab prototype blasts off (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/202936/7579506.html); Launch in early September.
I thought Tiangong-1 had just one docking port.
As far as I know.
-
Space lab prototype blasts off (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/202936/7579506.html); Launch in early September.
"According to the China National Space Administration (CNSA), Tiangong-1 is an eight-ton-class space lab prototype with a cylinder-shaped body and two docking ports on its ends."
Is it correct? I thought Tiangong-1 had just one docking port.
Well, the China Manned Space Engineering office, on their web site http://en.cmse.gov.cn/list.php?catid=55 (http://en.cmse.gov.cn/list.php?catid=55), states that the Tiangong-1 has two docking ports:
The weight of Tiangong-1 is about 8 tons, and its main body is a short and thick cylinder, with a docking port on its front and rear ends.
-
the China Manned Space Engineering office, on their web site http://en.cmse.gov.cn/list.php?catid=55 (http://en.cmse.gov.cn/list.php?catid=55), states that the Tiangong-1 has two docking ports:
The weight of Tiangong-1 is about 8 tons, and its main body is a short and thick cylinder, with a docking port on its front and rear ends.
But from that we can't immediately infer they intend to use those ports in the way dual ports were used for a station like Salyut 6, i.e. resupply and/or crew exchange. The other possibility is that a Shenzhou would dock with a module like Tiangong giving the crew extended time to reach a much larger station. The combined Shenzhou/Tiangong stack could then dock to the larger station.
Note that works even if (indeed, especially well if) the larger station is beyond low-Earth orbit. Of course that's thinking quite far ahead....
-
Well, the China Manned Space Engineering office, on their web site http://en.cmse.gov.cn/list.php?catid=55 (http://en.cmse.gov.cn/list.php?catid=55), states that the Tiangong-1 has two docking ports:
The weight of Tiangong-1 is about 8 tons, and its main body is a short and thick cylinder, with a docking port on its front and rear ends.
That maybe true, but I cant see the second port at the other end of the Tiangong-1 type module on any cgi or images
Edit: look at the end of the module closest to us, not the large one with the node.
-
And moderators note, went through the thread and removed embedded images and attached them instead, please remember to do so in the future.
-
Interesting that the rear view of the modular space station - be it Tiangong 3 or a different name in reality - shows one of the plug-on modules docking directly at a radial port. On Mir the modules (with the exception of the first Kvant, of course) all docked at the front longitudinal port and then rotated to a side port with the help of Liappa.
Of course this could simply be a mistake by the artist!!!!
Anyway, I think I have seen a picture of a Tiangong class module on display with a docking port at each end ....... OK, found it so I'll attach it. It's the only picture of this configuration that I have seen and it raises the question "where's the propulsions system for Tiangong?". Also, Shenzhou appears to be docked at the wrong end! All other pictures depict the docking with the wide part of the module.
-
Mayb the model in the picture that I have just posted above is plain wrong! It also depicts the Shenzhou orbtal module as having its solar panels retracted, altough no other illustrations show Shenzhou's orbital module with solar panels at all when docked/docking with a space lab of any class.
-
If Tiangong-1 has two docking ports (that's a big if), then this raises a question that I've wondered about for some time. Which is: What will they do with the Shenzhou-8 orbital module at the end of the mission? If Tiangong-1 has two docking ports, it could be possible to leave the orbital module docked, thus increasing the size of the station.
Is this possible? Or are there limitations in the separation event of the Shenzhou orbital and descent module? For example, reduced separation speed.
-
Anyway, I think I have seen a picture of a Tiangong class module on display with a docking port at each end ....... OK, found it so I'll attach it.
The attached photo shows a Salyut class core module, not a Tiangong.
-
Anyway, I think I have seen a picture of a Tiangong class module on display with a docking port at each end ....... OK, found it so I'll attach it.
The attached photo shows a Salyut class core module, not a Tiangong.
Except that the picture was supposed to represent a display of Shenzhou docked with Tiangong ..........
Admittedly the module looks rather like the Almaz/Salyut, but on those flights the Soyuz docked at the large-diameter end of the module.
-
Well, the China Manned Space Engineering office, on their web site http://en.cmse.gov.cn/list.php?catid=55 (http://en.cmse.gov.cn/list.php?catid=55), states that the Tiangong-1 has two docking ports:
The weight of Tiangong-1 is about 8 tons, and its main body is a short and thick cylinder, with a docking port on its front and rear ends.
The second docking port on rear end experiment module (main body, short and thick cylinder) probably used for berting with resource module (thin cylinder with solar battery).
-
Well, the China Manned Space Engineering office, on their web site http://en.cmse.gov.cn/list.php?catid=55 (http://en.cmse.gov.cn/list.php?catid=55), states that the Tiangong-1 has two docking ports:
The weight of Tiangong-1 is about 8 tons, and its main body is a short and thick cylinder, with a docking port on its front and rear ends.
The second docking port on rear end experiment module (main body, short and thick cylinder) probably used for berting with resource module (thin cylinder with solar battery).
I think this is the article in Chinese.
http://www.cmse.gov.cn/project/show.php?itemid=445
Anyone able to compare?
-
Babelfish translation. The larger end is the "testing cabin" and the smaller end the "resources cabin". A docking port is only mentioned for the testing cabin.
"After Shenzhou seven ends of mission, next step, China manned space program the key breakthrough aero space vehicle rendezvous docking technology, prepares for the establishment spacelab. But “heavenly palace one” in fact is a spacelab embryonic form, its weight and the Shenzhou seven dissimilarity, completes with it with airship's rendezvous docking. “heavenly palace” the main body for the short and heavy column, the diameter is bigger than the Shenzhou airship, around has one respectively to the connection. Uses two cabin configurations, respectively be the testing cabin and the resources cabin, the testing cabin before the seal awl section, the shell of column and the latter awl section is composed, front end the testing cabin installs a docking mechanism, as well as the rendezvous docking survey and the communication facility, use in supporting and the airship realize rendezvous docking. The resources cabin provides the power for the orbital maneuver, provides the energy for the flight. China in 2010 to at the end of 2011 will launch “heavenly palace one” the goal flight vehicle. “heavenly palace” weight eight tons, similar small spatial experimental station; The launch “heavenly palace” in the latter two years, China will launch Shenzhou eight, Shenzhou nine, the Shenzhou tenth airship one after another, completes space rendezvous docking separately with “heavenly palace one”. This basically must complete within two years, because “heavenly palace” the life has for two years. After the Shenzhou tenth airship complete rendezvous docking, in 2020 must construct Chinese own space station."
-
...Interesting discussion...
Up until now I have always interpreted Tiangong1 to have a single forward docking adaptor with a rear service module that was derived from Shenzhou. That is to say it was following a Salyut 1 configuration with it's accompanying limitations. My gut feeling is that this is probably still correct. All the imagery seems to support that assumption.
On the other hand might a rear port layout fit rather well with the free-flying capabilities of the SZ orbital module? Presumably the Chinese do not have prop transfer so the TG service module has a limited useful life and it negates access to a rear port. This prevents the station being permanently occupied. Maybe the intention is for the SM to serve until it's prop is gone and then for it to free up the rear port and enable crew excange. Imagine a sequence like this:
- SZ Launches and docks for a mission
- SZ returns but leaves the orbital module attached for attitude
- TG-SM separates liberating the rear port
- A later SZ docks at the rear port and takes over attitude control of the stack. The abandonned OM at the forward port is jettisoned to free that port for the first crew exchange. From now on TG could be permanently occupied with a visiting vehicle providing attitude for the stack at all times. If it needs to be de-crewed then the last SZ to leave sacrifices it’s orbital module to give the stack electrical power and attitude.
I don’t really buy the scenario I outlined above but it’s an interesting possibility and it overcomes the limitations of a Salyut 1 style configuration. You could extend the principal so as to enable a train of TG1 style modules to be docked in orbit. ...But did I read somewhere that the production SZ vehicles will delete the independent capabilities on the OM? I need a better filing system...
-
I think that the above scenario is too complex and too ambitious for Tiangong 1. I will buy the second hatch being an internal one but with a declared operating lifetime of ~2 years will the Chinese need to replace the Tiangong service module? When there is a Shenzhou docked then it can do the orbit-raising manoeuvres for the assembly.
None of the Chinese depictions have shown a Tiangong large diameter module without the service module attached. I had taken the picture of the two separated modules as simply being that - the modules assesmbled in parallel and then mated (permanently) on the ground.
I feel sure that with Tiangong 1 the Chinese will want to take it "nice and easy". One interesting thing will be whether Tiangong has a built-in EVA airlock or whether the orbital module of the docked Shenzhou will fullfill that role.
-
I agree that it doesn't really make sense. But you would need some elaborate plan like this to justify the rear port existing. My solution to the problem is that I don't believe the rear port exists. I think it's a mistake or missinterpretation of something.
-
I agree that it doesn't really make sense. But you would need some elaborate plan like this to justify the rear port existing. My solution to the problem is that I don't believe the rear port exists. I think it's a mistake or missinterpretation of something.
Since the service module section seems to have an access hatch, maybe the second hatch on the main compartment is simply to allow access to the service module (repairs, replace consumables?). Thus it is not a docking unit which is how "hatch" has normally been interpreted.
-
There is now a webpage in english about the launch of TianGong-1 at from the People's Daily at http://english.people.com.cn/102775/202988/index.html
-
Not much info on that web page, but there were a few interesting articles at the bottom of the page.
Their proposed space station looks pretty good. I note that they are building it in (3) 20-ish ton chunks, which our "space experts" suggest is not an expeditious chunk size. Hopefully, they can build it. Made me think about our strategy of building imaginary space stations via powerpoint in what, 70 to 130 ton chunks?
Also, their lunar probe seems to have been a success.
Sadly, their pages are short on info.
-
Not much info on that web page, but there were a few interesting articles at the bottom of the page.
Their proposed space station looks pretty good. I note that they are building it in (3) 20-ish ton chunks, which our "space experts" suggest is not an expeditious chunk size. Hopefully, they can build it. Made me think about our strategy of building imaginary space stations via powerpoint in what, 70 to 130 ton chunks?
Also, their lunar probe seems to have been a success.
Sadly, their pages are short on info.
I am hoping that once the mission is launched (successfully!) there will be much more information avalable on the web site - and in English as well!
Their ~2020 space station appears to be based upon the Mir concept rather than ISS. One of their animations shows a Salyut 6/7 class station with a Shenzhou docked at the front and a Tiangong-class cargo freighter at the back.
-
From People's Daily Tiangong-1 assembly completed (http://english.people.com.cn/98389/99061/7583387.html).
-
Their proposed space station looks pretty good. I note that they are building it in (3) 20-ish ton chunks, which our "space experts" suggest is not an expeditious chunk size.
.. because ISS obviously was built from what .. 100 ton modules ? /rhetorical question
-
From People's Daily Tiangong-1 assembly completed (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/8719478/China-set-to-launch-rival-to-International-Space-Station.html).
Rui, I think you posted the wrong link to the old Daily Telegraph article.
Here is the one from People's Daily/CCTV with some video.
http://english.people.com.cn/98389/99061/7583387.html
Usual vague dates I'm afraid, although I think they'd hardly be allowing these reports to go out unless they were planning to launch in the next 10 days or so.
-
From People's Daily Tiangong-1 assembly completed (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/8719478/China-set-to-launch-rival-to-International-Space-Station.html).
Rui, I think you posted the wrong link to the old Daily Telegraph article.
Thanks tony! Link corrected now.
-
I am curious as to "which" Russian Docking System is being used. I am led to believe it is the standard probe-and-drogue system, but all the mockups and graphics appear to show APAS.
-
I am curious as to "which" Russian Docking System is being used. I am led to believe it is the standard probe-and-drogue system, but all the mockups and graphics appear to show APAS.
If I'm not mistaken, the Russian provided technical help, but the docking system Chinese. I wouldn't be surprised that it won't be very difficult to make it IDSS. In fact, I suspect that the IDSS was a way to make the standard available to the Chinese, given the legal restrictions of even talking to them that NASA has.
-
In fact, I suspect that the IDSS was a way to make the standard available to the Chinese, given the legal restrictions of even talking to them that NASA has.
From http://internationaldockingstandard.com/questions_answers.html
The existing IDSS IDD does not result in any technology transfer as defined by ITAR
It's available for download: http://internationaldockingstandard.com/download/IDSS_IDD_RevA_Final_051311.pdf
However, the Chinese system must have been designed long before IDSS. If they started from APAS, it's possible they could make it compatible.
-
Considering the Shenzhou's orbital module was designed to operate on it's own, and endure for long periods in orbit, I'd not be surprised if the first few dockings with Tiengong-1 leaves their OM's behind.
-
I am curious as to "which" Russian Docking System is being used. I am led to believe it is the standard probe-and-drogue system, but all the mockups and graphics appear to show APAS.
There is no data to suggest that the Chinese are using probe and cone.
My private contacts indicate to me that the Chinese APAS was not license-built, but is a knock-off.
-
The NK forum readers are pointing out that Tiangong is basically a knock-off of Pirs and Poisk, the Russian modules at ISS.
-
From Xinhua China reschedules launch of unmanned space module (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-09/01/c_131092286.htm).
-
Their proposed space station looks pretty good. I note that they are building it in (3) 20-ish ton chunks, which our "space experts" suggest is not an expeditious chunk size.
.. because ISS obviously was built from what .. 100 ton modules ? /rhetorical question
I realize that you asked a rhetorical question, but I assume, correctly I hope, that you are aware of the current BFR proponents who argue along the lines that "we'll never make the mistake of trying to build something in LEO in 20 ton chunks ever again."
My point is, made obliquely perhaps, that the Chinese are proposing to use what they have to build what they think they can. To me, this sounds like a common sense approach, practicable as well as practical. We could do a lot with 20 ton chunks ourselves, should we embark on such a program.
This doesn't mean that the Chinese don't use powerpoint expressions of intent, but that at least, the "powerpoint" presentation they made on their space station seems doable, and I wish them good luck in their efforts. But enough talk about me...
-
From Xinhua China reschedules launch of unmanned space module (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-09/01/c_131092286.htm).
Thanks Rui. You are very good at picking up these Chinese news releases quickly!
I find it frustrating that it is very difficult to discern what all this really means.
Is this report actually 'new' news pointing towards an indefinite delay? Or is it just re-cycling the various news stories of the last few weeks which have already delayed the launch into 'early September', but with the possibility of getting back on track shortly, once they are confident there is no possibility of a repeat of the earlier failure.
-
From Xinhua China reschedules launch of unmanned space module (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-09/01/c_131092286.htm).
Thanks Rui. You are very good at picking up these Chinese news releases quickly!
I find it frustrating that it is very difficult to discern what all this really means.
Is this report actually 'new' news pointing towards an indefinite delay? Or is it just re-cycling the various news stories of the last few weeks which have already delayed the launch into 'early September', but with the possibility of getting back on track shortly, once they are confident there is no possibility of a repeat of the earlier failure.
I think this is only re-cycling news taking into account that Shenzhou-8 is already at Jiuquan (but I don't know if its CZ-2F is already there). The previous assumption was that the launch was not going to be delayed because of the SJ-11-04 launch failure and I think that Chinese authorities found it necessary to justify this delay (I think that we can now agree that the launch was effectively schedule for August 29 or 30).
On the other side, there are some rumors that say that the launch will take place in September but not on its first days.
-
These two articles can also be of interest (in Chinese):
http://www.spacechina.com/xwzx_zyxw_Details.shtml?recno=78469
http://www.spacechina.com/xwzx_jcdt_Details.shtml?recno=78470
-
On the other side, there are some rumors that say that the launch will take place in September but not on its first days.
So, if TG-1 was delayed into later part of September and the Chinese have previously implied a two month gap until SZ-8, that pushes that flight into late November and the SZ-8 recovery into early December.
Are there any weather or other seasonal issues which would mean they wouldn't want be in a position where they have to recover SZ-8 in poor conditions, so the whole sequence would be forced to slip to next Spring, or do we feel that they can launch and recover at any time they chose?
-
On the other side, there are some rumors that say that the launch will take place in September but not on its first days.
So, if TG-1 was delayed into later part of September and the Chinese have previously implied a two month gap until SZ-8, that pushes that flight into late November and the SZ-8 recovery into early December.
Are there any weather or other seasonal issues which would mean they wouldn't want be in a position where they have to recover SZ-8 in poor conditions, so the whole sequence would be forced to slip to next Spring, or do we feel that they can launch and recover at any time they chose?
I think that originally the launch of TG-1 was schedule for September / October with the launch of SZ-8 two months later (November / December). So I think we can assume they can launch and recover at any time they chose (except, of course, in bad weather conditions).
-
"we'll never make the mistake of trying to build something in LEO in 20 ton chunks ever again."
Agreeing with you here, and saying this is the wrongest "lesson" you could possibly learn from the ISS.
-
Shenzhou 1 came down in mid-November (1999) and Shenzhou 4 was in early January (2003).
So, the Chinese have experience is winter landings, even though these were unmanned flights.
I wonder whether the interval of two months between Tiangong 1 and Shenzhou 8 is anything to do with the rotation of the nodes taking around 60 days? Maybe ensuring essentially the same lighting conditions for the launches?
-
Shenzhou 1 came down in mid-November (1999) and Shenzhou 4 was in early January (2003).
So, the Chinese have experience is winter landings, even though these were unmanned flights.
Thanks Phil - I hadn't thought about checking out those early unmanned Shenzhou's. Hopefully this means they will be able to launch once they've completed the post-incident review without too many concerns about the knock-on effects on the later key dates.
I've also wondered about the two month interval and whether there is any technical or operational reason for it, or if is just a nominal gap, based on the projected process flow of SZ-8, which could be compressed to, say, 4 or 6 weeks if required by the current delay?
-
When the Soviets were operating Salyut 6 and to a lesser extent Salyut 7 the two month gap between Soyuz launches was very noticeable and it was to keep the landing conditions almost constant while rotating Soyuz spacecraft before they were "time expired" (which was then 90-100 days). It was all down to the orbital precession taking ~60 days to cycle through 360 degrees.
With Shenzhou landings, remember that SZ5 came down just before dawn (by the time the landing team and TV crews arrived the Sun had risen), SZ6 was nicely in darkness and SZ7 was in daylight, so the Chinese do not seem to have the same sort of landing constraints as had the Soviets.
-
From People's Daily Spacecraft Tiangong-1 launch delayed (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/202936/7586457.html).
Basically the same information as the previous article on Xinhua.
-
According to http://epaper.nhaidu.com/2011-09/02/content_1481.htm (in Chinese), the launch of TG-1 will now take place at the end of September. This also says that the launch of SZ-8 can take place at the end of October or November.
-
According to http://epaper.nhaidu.com/2011-09/02/content_1481.htm (in Chinese), the launch of TG-1 will now take place at the end of September. This also says that the launch of SZ-8 can take place at the end of October or November.
Go Taikonauts! suggesting the launch is indefinitely delayed with 50/50 chance of launch during September:-
http://www.go-taikonauts.com/en/chinese-space-news/205-tiangong-1-launch-has-been-delayed-indefinitely
-
According to http://epaper.nhaidu.com/2011-09/02/content_1481.htm (in Chinese), the launch of TG-1 will now take place at the end of September. This also says that the launch of SZ-8 can take place at the end of October or November.
Go Taikonauts! suggesting the launch is indefinitely delayed with 50/50 chance of launch during September:-
http://www.go-taikonauts.com/en/chinese-space-news/205-tiangong-1-launch-has-been-delayed-indefinitely
http://www.cmse.gov.cn/news/show.php?itemid=1611
-
According to http://epaper.nhaidu.com/2011-09/02/content_1481.htm (in Chinese), the launch of TG-1 will now take place at the end of September. This also says that the launch of SZ-8 can take place at the end of October or November.
Go Taikonauts! suggesting the launch is indefinitely delayed with 50/50 chance of launch during September:-
http://www.go-taikonauts.com/en/chinese-space-news/205-tiangong-1-launch-has-been-delayed-indefinitely
http://www.cmse.gov.cn/news/show.php?itemid=1611
http://en.cmse.gov.cn/show.php?contentid=1122
-
The NK forum readers are pointing out that Tiangong is basically a knock-off of Pirs and Poisk, the Russian modules at ISS.
Given the size of the whole spacecraft, the announced gross mass in the space lab and cargo craft configurations (8.5 and 13 tonnes respectively), and the configuration, I would say TG-1/future cargo craft is more of a knock off of Progress M2 (http://www.astronautix.com/craft/proessm2.htm) than Pirs/Poisk.
-
When the Soviets were operating Salyut 6 and to a lesser extent Salyut 7 the two month gap between Soyuz launches was very noticeable and it was to keep the landing conditions almost constant while rotating Soyuz spacecraft before they were "time expired" (which was then 90-100 days). It was all down to the orbital precession taking ~60 days to cycle through 360 degrees.
With Shenzhou landings, remember that SZ5 came down just before dawn (by the time the landing team and TV crews arrived the Sun had risen), SZ6 was nicely in darkness and SZ7 was in daylight, so the Chinese do not seem to have the same sort of landing constraints as had the Soviets.
To add a bit of information to the above, SZ7 came down in daylight, just before local sunset.
-
A video with some footage of TG-1 arriving to Jiuquan
http://v.ifeng.com/news/mainland/201107/226f9c18-49b1-4315-b061-9307ff08e959.shtml
-
From People's Daily Tiangong 1 might be launched in late September (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90786/7589711.html).
-
From People's Daily Tiangong 1 might be launched in late September (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90786/7589711.html).
So at least one month delay (launch was originally planned for August 30 (http://epaper.nhaidu.com/2011-09/02/content_1481.htm))
-
Comment from Yang Liwei at the Association of Space Explorers congress, currently taking place in Moscow.
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/content/news.shtml
"The launch of the 4th Chinese manned spacecraft is planned for next year according the Yang Liwei, the first Chinese astronaut, reported Interfax on Tuesday.
“The launch of the ship Shenzhou 9 is planned in 2012”, he said at the planetary congress of the Association of Space Explorers in MGTU Baumann.
Yang Liwei did not specify the month of launch, at this time.
He also reported that the launch orbital laboratory Tiangong 1 was postponed, but it will take place prior to the end of 2011.
In response to a question about whether it is planned to include women in the composition of crews of ships Shenzhou-9 and Shenzhou-10, Yang Liwei answered, that this will be decided closer to the launch."
-
Rumors say that the launch of TG-1 can take place on September 27.
-
From http://news.163.com/special/tiangong1/
-
Launch is schedule for September 27! TianGong-1 should be transported to the 921 launch pad on September 22.
-
China to launch unmanned space module between Sept. 27, 30
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-09/20/c_131149149.htm
JIUQUAN, Gansu, Sept. 20 (Xinhua) -- China will launch its unmanned space module, Tiangong-1, sometime from Sept. 27 to 30, a spokesperson said here Tuesday.
The space module and its carrier rocket, Long-March II-F, have been moved to the launch platform at the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center in northwest China's Gansu Province, said the project's spokesperson.
-
I am assuming that Tiangong 1 will enter the same 31 circuit ground track repeating orbit that was seen on Shenzhous 2-7 after they completed their main orbit-raising manoeuvres. It has been standard for Shenzhou to perform the manoeuvre ~7 hours after launch (for Shenzhou 2 it was ~21 hours after launch), so I wonder how quickly Tiangong 1 will enter this orbit.
Of course, being unmanned Tiangong can take its time, while the piloted craft will want to get docked fairly quickly so will manoeuvre after ~7 hours.
-
TianGong-1 on the launch pad...
-
...and video... at http://v.ifeng.com/news/tech/201109/819a01f1-ca87-499f-a3ce-d7e993f686cb.shtml
-
A few more...
-
...and the CZ-2F leaving the assembly building...
-
Fantastic pix, Riu. Great effort to find them so quickly!
Looks as though they are definitely planning to launch next week!
-
Fantastic pix, Riu. Great effort to find them so quickly!
Looks as though they are definitely planning to launch next week!
He has a low-flying aircraft that the Chinese can't detect!
-
Two more... nice rocket!
-
Do we know definitively which way up Tiangong is within the payload shroud? Smaller module at the top or bottom?
-
Do we know definitively which way up Tiangong is within the payload shroud? Smaller module at the top or bottom?
During testing smaller module at bottom. This is also consistent to a launch sequence image.
-
Rollout is always like a festival in Dongfeng Space City :)
-
I wonder whether the interval of two months between Tiangong 1 and Shenzhou 8 is anything to do with the rotation of the nodes taking around 60 days? Maybe ensuring essentially the same lighting conditions for the launches?
This is a late response -- sorry.
The 60 day lighting cycle period is associated with the 51.6 degree inclination.
Lower inclinations precess faster.
For the Shenzhou inclination it's more like +/- 55 days, i think.
[edit - value adjusted]
-
Still more images...
-
-
-
-
-
I wonder whether the interval of two months between Tiangong 1 and Shenzhou 8 is anything to do with the rotation of the nodes taking around 60 days? Maybe ensuring essentially the same lighting conditions for the launches?
This is a late response -- sorry.
The 60 day lighting cycle period is associated with the 51.6 degree inclination.
Lower inclinations precess faster.
For the Shenzhou inclination it's more like +/- 55 days, i think.
[edit - value adjusted]
I was thinking of 60 days as a ball-park figure without adjusting for the difference in inclination.
-
Still more images of the CZ-2F launch vehicle with TG-1...
-
-
Here is the official statement for the launch of Tiangong I
http://en.cmse.gov.cn/show.php?contentid=1123
-
AT LAST!!!...China will FINALLY have a mini-spacestation (laboratory)
in orbit in a few days, if all things go well.
-
3D representations of launch and docking can be seen at http://news.sina.com.cn/z/tiangong2011/3D/index.shtml
-
3D representations of launch and docking can be seen at http://news.sina.com.cn/z/tiangong2011/3D/index.shtml
The dockings aren't very accurate.
-
On the multiple docking adapter for the modular space station, the zenith and nadir ports are always depicted as empty.
I wonder if four modules are planned or whether new Shenzhou spacecraft will dock there if the station is to be permanently occupied like Mir. Of course, with Mir the second Soyuz would always docked at the rear of the station and then relocate to the front after the original crew and spacecraft return to Earth.
-
On the multiple docking adapter for the modular space station, the zenith and nadir ports are always depicted as empty.
I wonder if four modules are planned or whether new Shenzhou spacecraft will dock there if the station is to be permanently occupied like Mir.
Permanently occupied like MIR?
I don't think so!
It's only eight metric tons; habitable volume probably not much bigger than your washroom.
And NO PLANS indicated for four additional modules; not on this
platform anyways.
Wait for the improved Long March 5 to haul up 25 metric ton modules
for your wish to come true....sometime after 2014.
-
On the multiple docking adapter for the modular space station, the zenith and nadir ports are always depicted as empty.
I wonder if four modules are planned or whether new Shenzhou spacecraft will dock there if the station is to be permanently occupied like Mir.
Permanently occupied like MIR?
I don't think so!
It's only eight metric tons; habitable volume probably not much bigger than your washroom.
And NO PLANS indicated for four additional modules; not on this
platform anyways.
Wait for the improved Long March 5 to haul up 25 metric ton modules
for your wish to come true....sometime after 2014.
He was talking about the future space station, not the Tiangongs.
-
Images of TG-1 being processed for launch before integration into the launcher.
-
-
-
Dunno if this has been posted yet, but here is a very neat animation of the launch and later space station construction:
http://news.sina.com.cn/z/tiangong2011/3D/index.shtml
-
Due to the confusion above about my comment about the future modular space station - circa 2020 - and Tiangong 1, I will raise the issue again as a new thread.
-
Is that a window?
-
Dunno if this has been posted yet, but here is a very neat animation of the launch and later space station construction:
http://news.sina.com.cn/z/tiangong2011/3D/index.shtml
What is strange is that the animation shows TianGong-1 performing the prox ops maneuvers during docking.
-
anyone know if there is a graphic depicting the size of Salyut-1 versus Tiangong-1?
-
anyone know if there is a graphic depicting the size of Salyut-1 versus Tiangong-1?
Or anything that provides dimensions for TianGong-1. I am thinking that the large compartment is 3.3 meters in diameter, but I am not sure.
-
well here is a graphic depicting the Skylab B/Salyut proposal that shows the relative sizes of the two, I guess I will try to make a size comparison out of it that one could plug in Tiangong-1 into
-
phase one done, now IF I could only get the Tiangong-1 dimensions down
-
Dunno if this has been posted yet, but here is a very neat animation of the launch and later space station construction:
http://news.sina.com.cn/z/tiangong2011/3D/index.shtml
What is strange is that the animation shows TianGong-1 performing the prox ops maneuvers during docking.
Do you mean in the third part of the animation, where TianGong approaches and docks to the aft port of the core module of the modular space station?
I think this makes sense, since the Chinese had stated that they plan to modify TianGong into a cargoship (similar to Progress) for their planned modular space station. In that case, it would have to play the active role during docking and needs to be capable of performing the prox ops.
-
Launch slipped to September 29 due to bad weather / unacceptable high altitude winds at JSLC. One news report puts the launch window at 21:20 - 21:30 CST / 13:20 - 13:30 UTC.
Source (http://www.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=84&pid=152363&fromuid=19646)
-
One news report puts the launch window at 21:20 - 21:30 CST / 13:20 - 13:30 UTC.
This launch window is still considered unofficial
(source (http://xxcb.rednet.cn/show.asp?id=1130139) in Chinese)
-
English language report confirming the same date and time for the launch window:-
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/?id=483526&type=National
-
What is strange is that the animation shows TianGong-1 performing the prox ops maneuvers during docking.
I didn't notice that part. But what struck me was that for Mir-class station assembly, the X-axis approaching modules stopped short of docking and were grapled while station-keeping and then rotated 90 degrees for berthing.
-
English language report confirming the same date and time for the launch window:-
Thanks! When will be learn if the launch will be streamed live on national TV? Has this been discussed, denied, or left undisclosed?
-
I think this makes sense, since the Chinese had stated that they plan to modify TianGong into a cargoship (similar to Progress) for their planned modular space station. In that case, it would have to play the active role during docking and needs to be capable of performing the prox ops.
Exactly. I'm still looking for any indications of translation thrusters on the Tiangong 'service module', but then, I'm not sure I can see them on the Shenzhou SM, which I'm presuming is almost identical.
An alternate, or even a parallel [both being true] application of a near-future Tiangong descendant is to serve as a 'Mission Module' for human flight beyond LEO, with it launched together with a modified Shenzhou atop an LM-5. It could open up all of Earth-Moon space, from the GEO arc to lunar orbit to Lagrange points EML1 and 2, and SEL2.
With the first Tiangong having extended crew life support capabilities -- a feature unnecessary in a station resupply vehicle -- that second application might seem to have higher priority.
For just testing rendezvous and docking, why not just use two Shenzhou vehicles a la Soyuz 1967-1968?
-
I just found this, didn't see it linked earlier. Great piece!
Mythbusting for Tiangong
by Morris Jones
Sydney, Australia (SPX) Sep 22, 2011
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Mythbusting_for_Tiangong_999.html
-
For just testing rendezvous and docking, why not just use two Shenzhou vehicles a la Soyuz 1967-1968?
Because the Chinese are wanting something that will stay in orbit and allow reuse.
The Chinese have never depicted two Shenzhou spacecraft docking: just a Shenzhou docking with a previously discarded orbital module. Possibly this was a seriously considered plan but was dropped because of budgets and the speed at which Shenzhou spacecraft could be launched. After all, the second Shenzhou would need to be launched within 6-9 months of the one which left its orbital module in orbit to ensure that the latter was still operating.
-
English language report confirming the same date and time for the launch window:-
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/?id=483526&type=National (http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/?id=483526&type=National)
Note the "probably" in "Tiangong 1 will now probably blast off between 9:20pm and 9:30pm on Thursday,", it's not finalized yet!
-
There's a video here http://english.cntv.cn/01/index.shtml with an interesting animation (see attached screenshot).
It's the clearest view I've seen of what Tiangong looks like inside. And I'm intrigued by the hatch on the right. is that a third crew members legs sticking out of it?
I guess they've left the docked Shenzhou off for clarity....
-
There's a video here http://english.cntv.cn/01/index.shtml with an interesting animation (see attached screenshot).
It's the clearest view I've seen of what Tiangong looks like inside. And I'm intrigued by the hatch on the right. is that a third crew members legs sticking out of it?
I guess they've left the docked Shenzhou off for clarity....
I've seen this image before
-
And a variation...
But this second picture seems to show there is no such 'second hatch' on TG1...
-
Just out of interest, which end is the SZ docking interface? I'm assuming that it's the 'fat' end, on the other end to the solar arrays.
-
And a variation...
But this second picture seems to show there is no such 'second hatch' on TG1...
The chart shows some dimensions for TianGong.
The vehicle is 9 meters from docking port to the tail section. The diameter of the large module is 3.35 meters (compare with the new Energia cylindrical tooling of 3.3 meters), and the hatch is .8 meters in diameter, which is the same as for the Russian APAS.
IF I had to bet money, I would bet that someone at Energia traded APAS to the Chinese for 3.3 meter tooling for pressurized sections.
-
We know that in the 1990s the Chinese purchased an APAS from Energiya as part of the same commercial deal that allowed them to send two yuhanguans to Russia for training and the purchase of other space hardware.
-
So in size terms its like a scaled down ATV.
ATV 10.7m x 4.5m
Tiangong 9m x 3.35m
and I seem to recall that I read somewhere about the original ATV design having a second docking port running through the middle of the SM?
-
Would someone be kind nough to translate the Chinese captions for the Tiangong 1 cutaways, please?
Re the hatch to the smaller diameter section, I wonder if it might be an equipment access hatch?
-
We know that in the 1990s the Chinese purchased an APAS from Energiya as part of the same commercial deal that allowed them to send two yuhanguans to Russia for training and the purchase of other space hardware.
I have never seen confirmation of the rumor that the Chinese bought an APAS. On the other hand, the horse's mouth told me that they didn't.
What is true is that Chinese APAS and the Russian 3.3 meter compartment are both flying for the first time within the next year or so. Is it a coincidence or did it just happen that the Russians are flying a new structure that happens to be the same diameter as a Chinese module?
-
Just out of interest, which end is the SZ docking interface? I'm assuming that it's the 'fat' end, on the other end to the solar arrays.
It is at one end of the large-diameter module, with the narrower service/instrument module at the other end.
I cannot understand the apparent confusion about this - this is the docking confirguration which the Chinese showed in 2003 when Shenzhou 5 flew and it has been used in all animations since then.
-
From Xinhua:
Forecasts signal late-week launch of Tiangong-1 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-09/26/c_131159441.htm)
China prepares to launch first space lab module between Sept. 29, 30 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-09/26/c_131160227.htm)
-
I assume that it's too early to ask about live TV coverage of the launch?
I still have the CCTV link from Shenzhou 7 and I will still be on annual leave. :-)
-
Would someone be kind nough to translate the Chinese captions for the Tiangong 1 cutaways, please?
Re the hatch to the smaller diameter section, I wonder if it might be an equipment access hatch?
Tentative translation of the text in cutaway view (attachment to Reply 351) under the smaller cylinder:
"Resources cabin
Battery equipment to provide orbit maneuver power and resources for the flight"
-
Beijing China Daily Online in English 0050 GMT 27 Sep 11
reports the Tiangong has two sleeping compartments.
The internal volume is 15 cubic meters. Max diamter is 3.35 m
['the same dimension as its launch vehicle'],
compared to 'less than 3' for Shenzhou.
Mission duration will be up to two years.
Yang Hong is identified as "chief designer of Tiangong-1".
-
From Xinhua:
Spacecraft ready to go on mission (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-09/27/c_131161747.htm)
"Astronauts on Tiangong-1 will have 15 cubic meters of space to move in, "much more than they had in the Shenzhou spaceship", Yang said.
Inside the spacecraft are two sleeping sections with adjustable lighting systems, exercise equipment, entertainment systems and visual communication devices, he said."
-
I'm searching for the CZ-2F/G technical specifications. Any help would be appreciated.
-
According to http://www.cmse.gov.cn/news/show.php?itemid=1717 , the Tiangong-1 launch vehicle is CZ-2F T1 while Shenzhou-8 is going to be launched by CZ-2F No.8.
As of today, I've seen figures for shroud only -- it's 4.2x12.7 meters.
-
From Xinhua:
Spacecraft ready to go on mission (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-09/27/c_131161747.htm)
"Astronauts on Tiangong-1 will have 15 cubic meters of space to move in, "much more than they had in the Shenzhou spaceship", Yang said.
Inside the spacecraft are two sleeping sections with adjustable lighting systems, exercise equipment, entertainment systems and visual communication devices, he said."
15 m^3 seems kind of small for what the pictures have shown.
-
From Xinhua:
Spacecraft ready to go on mission (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-09/27/c_131161747.htm)
"Astronauts on Tiangong-1 will have 15 cubic meters of space to move in, "much more than they had in the Shenzhou spaceship", Yang said.
Inside the spacecraft are two sleeping sections with adjustable lighting systems, exercise equipment, entertainment systems and visual communication devices, he said."
15 m^3 seems kind of small for what the pictures have shown.
IIRC, Pirs and Poisk have an internal volume of 13 m3, they have a max diameter of 2.6 meters, and they are oblong, compared with the 3.3 meter diameter for the cylindrical TianGong-1.
-
Are there any photos or videos showing the inside of TianGong? (Apart from the video-still picture that has been posted by user Lucspace on the previous page)
-
From Xinhua:
Spacecraft ready to go on mission (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-09/27/c_131161747.htm)
"Astronauts on Tiangong-1 will have 15 cubic meters of space to move in, "much more than they had in the Shenzhou spaceship", Yang said.
Inside the spacecraft are two sleeping sections with adjustable lighting systems, exercise equipment, entertainment systems and visual communication devices, he said."
15 m^3 seems kind of small for what the pictures have shown.
There is also internal volume set aside for storage batteries, propellant tanks, water & air tanks; not to mention the required machinery, associate plumbing, electronic housings, etc.
15 cubic meters is a little larger in volume than my bathroom, BTW.
Just a reminder that living in space for days, weeks, etc is not luxury living.
And it appears likely, from the fact that the Shenzhou-8 will be docked with the orbiting lab for 21 days that the two person Shenzhou-9 or 10 crew will stay no longer than 21 days inside that lab in orbit.
Imagine being stuck in my bathroom for 21 days? ;)
-
From Xinhua:
Spacecraft ready to go on mission (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-09/27/c_131161747.htm)
"Astronauts on Tiangong-1 will have 15 cubic meters of space to move in, "much more than they had in the Shenzhou spaceship", Yang said.
Inside the spacecraft are two sleeping sections with adjustable lighting systems, exercise equipment, entertainment systems and visual communication devices, he said."
15 m^3 seems kind of small for what the pictures have shown.
There is also internal volume set aside for storage batteries, propellant tanks, water & air tanks; not to mention the required machinery, associate plumbing, electronic housings, etc.
15 cubic meters is a little larger in volume than my bathroom, BTW.
Just a reminder that living in space for days, weeks, etc is not luxury living.
And it appears likely, from the fact that the Shenzhou-8 will be docked with the orbiting lab for 21 days that the two person Shenzhou-9 or 10 crew will stay no longer than 21 days inside that lab in orbit.
Imagine being stuck in my bathroom for 21 days? ;)
For comparison, the Soyuz spacecraft has ~10 m3 of volume, with 4 m3 of that volume in the descent module. I am sure that Shenzhou has more available volume than Soyuz, so it should be close to Tiangong-1 in volume.
-
One assumes that the Tiangong 1 crew will also be using the Shenzhou orbital module for living/working space as well. They might even keep the descent module active as well for some extra sleeping space.
Remember that Tiangong is not ISS or Skylab or Mir or even Salyut! This is China's first tentative step in their space station programme.
If SZ 8 and 9 are going to be ~3 weeks in duration then perhaps SZ10 could see a four weeks mission. I am wondering how long the missions will be that the second and third Tiangongs will host. I would guess that about two months is the maximum because of the volume limitations. Also that was the longest that the Soviets flew without the opportunity of supplies by an unmanned cargo freighter.
-
More details on the TG-1/SZ-8 operations from China's manned space project spokesman Wu Ping (http://www.cmse.gov.cn/news/show.php?itemid=1775):
"According to the plan, launched at the temple, after the two entered orbit about 350 km altitude near circular orbit, the in-orbit testing.
Shenzhou VIII spacecraft prior to launch, Temple One drop of about 343 km altitude orbit to nearly circular orbit, waiting for rendezvous and docking.
Shenzhou VIII spacecraft into orbit after 2 days, complete with Temple One of the first rendezvous and docking, formation of combinations.
Combination of flight about 12 days, to choose a second rendezvous and docking. After the assembly operation, the spacecraft back to earth in a day.
One temple will rise to autonomous flight track rail, into the long-term operation and management mode, waiting for the next rendezvous and docking."
-
Are there any photos or videos showing the inside of TianGong? (Apart from the video-still picture that has been posted by user Lucspace on the previous page)
There are views by apparent on-board camera's in the photo here: http://www.cmse.gov.cn/news/show.php?itemid=1716, and I have photoshopped these from earlier views:
-
More details on the TG-1/SZ-8 operations from China's manned space project spokesman Wu Ping (http://www.cmse.gov.cn/news/show.php?itemid=1775):
"According to the plan, launched at the temple, after the two entered orbit about 350 km altitude near circular orbit, the in-orbit testing.
Shenzhou VIII spacecraft prior to launch, Temple One drop of about 343 km altitude orbit to nearly circular orbit, waiting for rendezvous and docking.
Shenzhou VIII spacecraft into orbit after 2 days, complete with Temple One of the first rendezvous and docking, formation of combinations.
Combination of flight about 12 days, to choose a second rendezvous and docking. After the assembly operation, the spacecraft back to earth in a day.
One temple will rise to autonomous flight track rail, into the long-term operation and management mode, waiting for the next rendezvous and docking."
I am guessing that this means that Tiangong 1 will be manoeuvred to a ~350 km circular orbit after launch. By the time that SZ8 is launched natural decay will have reduced the altitude to ~343 km. The docking will take place two days after the launch of SZ8 - but I assume that it will fly the standard orbit-raising profile with the main burn ~7 hours after launch. Then a slow approach and docking. The two will remain docked for about 12 days. Then does this mean that SZ8 will undock, presumably retreat, and then perform a second docking? Then SZ8 finally undocks and returns to Earth, as Tiangong raises its orbit to await SZ9 next year.
-
15 m^3 seems kind of small for what the pictures have shown.
Maybe that's 'usable space' less equipment racks and stores, not total internal pressurised volume.
-
From Xinhua:
Long March rocket fueled to launch Tiangong-1 space module (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-09/28/c_131165280.htm)
-
A video about the upcoming mission: http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2011-09/28/c_122102203.htm
-
Bilingual press-conference about the TianGong-1. Launch confirmed for September 29: http://news.cntv.cn/china/20110928/112966.shtml
There will be two docking maneuvers on the mission. If SZ-8 launches on November 1, the first docking is schedule to take place on November 3. There will be a 12 day period of operations and then the two vehicles will separate to conduct a new docking.
-
Counting down at http://scitech.people.com.cn/tg-1/ for a launch time of 11306:23UTC. Official launch window is 1316UTC to 1331UTC. Are there any NOTAMs for this launch?
-
A video at http://www.cmse.gov.cn/ provides nome nice views, I'm posting several here and in next posts:
-
-
-
-
-
...for a launch time of 11306:23UTC.
???
-
...for a launch time of 11306:23UTC.
???
This time is taking into account the countdown clock on that page. Official launch window is the previously indicated.
-
This time is taking into account the countdown clock on that page
Rui, you have wrote 11306:23 UTC. ;) Maybe 13:16:23 UTC?
-
This time is taking into account the countdown clock on that page
Rui, you have wrote 11306:23 UTC. ;) Maybe 13:16:23 UTC?
Maybe some days really *are* longer than others ... ;D
-
I'm searching for the CZ-2F/G technical specifications. Any help would be appreciated.
http://china.huanqiu.com/roll/2011-09/2044114.html
http://news.xinmin.cn/domestic/gnkb/2011/09/28/12228163.html
-
This time is taking into account the countdown clock on that page
Rui, you have wrote 11306:23 UTC. ;) Maybe 13:16:23 UTC?
Shaky hands 1306:23UTC... too much caffeine...
-
I'm searching for the CZ-2F/G technical specifications. Any help would be appreciated.
http://china.huanqiu.com/roll/2011-09/2044114.html
http://news.xinmin.cn/domestic/gnkb/2011/09/28/12228163.html
The main differences I see: is a greater volume of propellant and a extended firing time from 140 seconds to 150 seconds.
-
Are there any NOTAMs for this launch?
AFAICT, no NOTAM found until now
-
This time is taking into account the countdown clock on that page
Rui, you have wrote 11306:23 UTC. ;) Maybe 13:16:23 UTC?
Shaky hands 1306:23UTC... too much caffeine...
Fragment of countdown javascript:
var time = "2011-09-29 21:6:00"
So T-0 is 13:06:00 UTC. But I think it was typo, simply "1" was ommited, and T-0 is 13:16:00.
-
From CCTV:
Camera records rocket launching (http://english.cntv.cn/program/china24/20110928/115099.shtml).
Tiangong-1 space module to launch Thursday (http://english.cntv.cn/program/newsupdate/20110928/114724.shtml).
-
This is where we probably will see the launch live of TG-1...
http://english.cntv.cn/live/
-
Fueling the launcher...
-
I'm searching for the CZ-2F/G technical specifications. Any help would be appreciated.
http://china.huanqiu.com/roll/2011-09/2044114.html
http://news.xinmin.cn/domestic/gnkb/2011/09/28/12228163.html
The main differences I see: is a greater volume of propellant and a extended firing time from 140 seconds to 150 seconds.
Wasn't the CZ-2F/G supposed to switch over from hypergolics to kerolox? Or was that the CZ-2F/H? Or just a misinformation?
-
Hmmm, somehow this does not work on my iMac... :(
Anyone know what media format this site uses?
This is where we probably will see the launch live of TG-1...
http://english.cntv.cn/live/
-
Wasn't the CZ-2F/G supposed to switch over from hypergolics to kerolox? Or was that the CZ-2F/H? Or just a misinformation?
Maybe it was a dream which didn't happen. If the CZ-6 and CZ-7 launchers are fully developed then the existing N2O4/UDMH launchers can be retired.
-
Moved for live coverage tomorrow.
-
Are there any NOTAMs for this launch?
AFAICT, no NOTAM found until now
There is one, sorrt of:
A1483/11 - THE FLW SEGMENTS OF ATS RTE CLSD: 1. V16: DENGKOU VOR 'DKO'-GOBIN. 2. A596: YABRAI VOR 'YBL'-DENGKOU VOR 'DKO'. FL000 - FL999, 29 SEP 13:00 2011 UNTIL 29 SEP 13:35 2011. CREATED: 28 SEP 13:10 2011
-
Yes, this late-published NOTAM seems to define no-fly airways segments compatible with CZ-2F launch (see picture from Google Earth below)
It would confirm a launch window between 1300 and 1335UTC
-
From CCTV:
Camera records rocket launching (http://english.cntv.cn/program/china24/20110928/115099.shtml).
Tiangong-1 space module to launch Thursday (http://english.cntv.cn/program/newsupdate/20110928/114724.shtml).
Impressive video production in english.
-
A video at http://www.cmse.gov.cn/ provides nome nice views, I'm posting several here and in next posts:
Here's a direct link (http://www.cmse.gov.cn/lk/css/FlowPlayerDark.swf?config=%7Bembedded%3Atrue%2CbaseURL%3A%27http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ecmse%2Egov%2Ecn%2Flk%2Fcss%27%2CvideoFile%3A%27http%3A%2F%2Fvideo%2Ecmse%2Egov%2Ecn%2Fvideos%2F2011%2Ftiangongrenwu%2Eflv%27%2CinitialScale%3A%27scale%27%2CcontrolBarBackgroundColor%3A%270x2e8860%27%2CautoBuffering%3Atrue%2CautoPlay%3Atrue%7D) for everyone else.
-
Here an offical introduction of the flights of Tiangong I and Shenzhou VIII.
http://en.cmse.gov.cn/show.php?contentid=1125
-
Hmmm, somehow this does not work on my iMac... :(
Anyone know what media format this site uses?
This is where we probably will see the launch live of TG-1...
http://english.cntv.cn/live/
Try mms://a529.l7906022528.c79060.g.lm.akamaistream.net/D/529/79060/v0001/reflector:22528
-
That works, thanks!
-
Hmmm, somehow this does not work on my iMac... :(
Anyone know what media format this site uses?
This is where we probably will see the launch live of TG-1...
http://english.cntv.cn/live/
Try mms://a529.l7906022528.c79060.g.lm.akamaistream.net/D/529/79060/v0001/reflector:22528
I'm not getting it. Where are we supposed to try that at?
-
Looks like a link you copy and paste into VLC (google for VLC Player if you don't have that).
Rui's massive article will be going on this evening, by the way. Very meaty article!
-
There is also internal volume set aside for storage batteries, propellant tanks, water & air tanks; not to mention the required machinery, associate plumbing, electronic housings, etc.
15 cubic meters is a little larger in volume than my bathroom, BTW.
Just a reminder that living in space for days, weeks, etc is not luxury living.
And it appears likely, from the fact that the Shenzhou-8 will be docked with the orbiting lab for 21 days that the two person Shenzhou-9 or 10 crew will stay no longer than 21 days inside that lab in orbit.
Imagine being stuck in my bathroom for 21 days? ;)
It sounds like a much more pleasant than 2 weeks stuck in Gemini 7...that was what, 2 or 3 cubic meters?
Assuming 3 meter diameter x 4.5 meter long interior dimensions, the pressurized volume of TianGong should be more like 30 cubic meters total. The 15 cubic meters quoted must almost certainly be the useful volume.
Wikipedia has an unsourced claim that the volume of the Shenzhou spacecraft is 14 cubic meters. If that is accurate, I suspect it is total pressurized volume.
-
Okay, thanks. Next thing I need to know is what time its actually launching at!
-
Okay, thanks. Next thing I need to know is what time its actually launching at!
Short window opens at 13:16UTC (9:16am Eastern)
-
And here's Rui C. Barbosa's 5,000 word epic baseline launch and overview article!
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2011/09/china-major-human-space-flight-milestone-tiangong-1s-launch/
-
This is where we probably will see the launch live of TG-1...
http://english.cntv.cn/live/
I wonder if it will be live, or taped and displayed later.
-
And here's Rui C. Barbosa's 5,000 word epic baseline launch and overview article!
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2011/09/china-major-human-space-flight-milestone-tiangong-1s-launch/
Wow, that's a great article.
-
-
-
-
Weather will not be a problem for launch...
-
Images from the control center...
-
According to http://scitech.people.com.cn/tg-1/ we are at T-4h..
-
Well, I wish them good luck. I hope this mission is a success. It is ashame that they could not partner with us on the ISS up till now, perhaps in future that will be possible.
-
Other link to see the launch is http://cctv.cntv.cn/live/cctvxinwen/index.shtml#online. Don't have a link to VLC :(
-
Well, I wish them good luck. I hope this mission is a success. It is ashame that they could not partner with us on the ISS up till now, perhaps in future that will be possible.
This issue is politics.
About ten years ago I was told by someone within NASA that China would not get access to ISS "this side of Hell freezing over".
Of course, if the Russians invited them to visit ISS then I wonder how the Americans could stop it?
-
T-3h... Everything looks perfect for the launch of TianGong-1.
-
Journalist making a tour of the launch pad...
-
-
MCC
-
MCC
So, the planned launch time is 13:16:00.000 UTC (probably, engine ignition time).
-
Special coverage of the launch will start in CCTV News in a few minutes...
-
Special coverage of the launch started...
-
-
T-2h... In one hour the mobile arms of the umbilical tower will swing open...
-
Of course, if the Russians invited them to visit ISS then I wonder how the Americans could stop it?
Turn off the lights and comm to the Russian segment? -grin-
Seriously, the issue is worth discussing at significant junctures such as this marvelous launch.
There remain major political differences in approach to the question of the extent of Chinese access to ISS. Realpolitik diplomats point out that in the past, the degree of international space cooperation was determined to reflect the degree of political detente already achieved -- it was a symbol of what existed already and a reward for desired behavior that had already been achieved. There is an alternate approach, which is to apologize for one's own country's arrogance and bullying, and offer the access as an inducement to future change of policies, and then think sweet thoughts, close one's eyes, and hope. So why not try that in space, seeing how well it has already worked in other areas of international discord, advocates of this policy say.
In practical terms, the Chinese seem happy with 42 degree orbital inclination [they had originally planned 52 exactly in order to be ISS-compatible but abandoned the idea, probably because of range safety issues] and have built ground site facilities [particularly in Namibia] to support it. It might not be so simple for them to get to 52 until Wenching is operational.
-
My feed is a bit blocky and choppy, anyone else having any problems?
-
My feed is a bit blocky and choppy, anyone else having any problems?
Same here.
-
My feed is a bit blocky and choppy, anyone else having any problems?
Same here, but not always: Sometimes it's okay and sometimes it's very bad.
I'm using this link in VLC player: mms://a529.l7906022528.c79060.g.lm.akamaistream.net/D/529/79060/v0001/reflector:22528
-
My feed is a bit blocky and choppy, anyone else having any problems?
Same here.
Ditto, I thought it was my link. Still, who would have imagined this coverage ten years ago?
-
Yep, terrible webcasting.
Also, this is a live update thread, so let's keep that chatter down as much as possible.
Currently saying nice things about the ISS.
-
They're mentioning NASA's budget is decreasing.
-
Noting NASA funding cuts...
-
Heh, was a bit messy on the explanation.
-
Reporter noting the US and Russia carried out this level of mission in the 60s.
-
T-1h 1m
-
L-60 minutes.
-
-
Important Chinese guy:
-
-
-
It's great that they're webcasting this. Live Chinese rocket launches are a rare pleasure.
-
There is apparently a 3.5 minutes delay between actual time and CCTV#13 streaming video displayed clock
-
L-45 mins.
-
Apolgies if posted already - for those in the UK with Sky, CCTV is on channel 510.
-
-
Expert noting new vehicle dev up to Long March 7 - which will equate to three times the capability of this 2F.
-
Expert noting new vehicle dev up to Long March 7 - which will equate to three times the capability of this 2F.
Looks like the CZ-7 was previously designated CZ-2F/H.
-
-
-
Coming up on pad milestones.
-
Details on the planned 3 steps
-
-
-
Expert noting new vehicle dev up to Long March 7 - which will equate to three times the capability of this 2F.
Looks like the CZ-7 was previously designated CZ-2F/H.
Ah, thanks for that! I was guessing it had to be something like that. I do know that the CZ-5, 6 (and 7) rockets are to have kerolox first stages.
-
Mobile platforms opening
-
talking about the LV
-
-
-
-
-
overview of tiangong-1
-
The Chinese stream is less choppy, but it is in Chinese ;D
-
-
-
comparing tiangong-1/Shenzhou with Endeavour /iss (no comparison)
-
Nice respect shown for ISS and Endeavour. Happy days.
-
-
-
-
Pad rats jogging off the structure!
-
-
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TopDZdCNKLE
-
Thanks klausd!
-
does anyone have the direct link for chinese feed, English feed just failed
-
does anyone have the direct link for chinese feed, English feed just failed
http://cctv.cntv.cn/live/cctvxinwen/index.shtml#online I can't play it on VLC.
-
-
does anyone have the direct link for chinese feed, English feed just failed
I do use a Software called "Sopcast" with the channel "CCTV News"
-
-
view inside MCC
-
-
It's no Atlas V, but it's still a nice looking rocket.
-
-
Hearing the LCC loop for the first time.
-
-
-
This is the ONLY web stream link I can get to work:
http://english.cntv.cn/live/
-
-
-
It's no Atlas V, but it's still a nice looking rocket.
Fuel is also pretty toxic (hypergolic), so I wouldnt want to be around it
-
T-10 m
-
According to china.org.cn: "Chen Hongmin, director of the Beijing Aerospace Control Center, said the average age of personnel participating in the Tiangong-1 mission is 33."
-
T-6m. Tension raising...
-
-
El Presidente.
-
Hu Jin Tao present!
-
Hu's here, and Jiaobing!
-
With all of those people from the Chinese Politbureau at the Beijing control centre, I'd hate to be responsible for any failures ...........
-
Heh, this one looks anxious.
-
T-5m
-
-
T-4m
-
With all of those people from the Chinese Politbureau at the Beijing control centre, I'd hate to be responsible for any failures ...........
Yeah! The full set appears to be there, both the Prem and Deputy, and all the military leadership.
-
VLC feed is now almost to real time.
They need to dispense with the news crawl.
-
T-3m
-
-
Reminds me of those old Soviet launch videos.
-
T-2m
-
T-120 seconds.
-
-
One minute to go!!!!!!
-
T-60 seconds.
-
-
-
Cool shots of the QDs
-
LAUNCH!!
-
-
Go!!! go!!!!!!
-
Go!!! go!!!!!!
Go China!
-
-
Looks good on first stage so far.
-
-
-
With the delay, you can relive the launch with the Chinese feed :D
-
-
Staging. Booster sep. 1-2 sep.
-
I love the rocketcam view of the nozzle.
-
-
-
Fairing out!!!
-
Fairing Sep.
-
-
I think that's the first time I've seen a Chinese booster sep from the ground
-
Second stage engine.
-
Amazing video...
-
It was one of those engines that failed on the SJ-11-04 launch...
-
Amazing video...
Grrrr. Makes me mad I can't watch it. Hope it gets uploaded on youtube or somewhere later.
-
-
-
Ablative nozzle? Sparking away - hard to capture.
-
-
-
-
Do hypergolic engines always create these pretty pink/green colored exhausts in space?
-
Details on the ground control equipment coverage
-
s/c sep
-
S/C Sep! TG-1 on it's way.
-
-
-
there are two space stations in orbit for the first time since 2001
solar arrays deploying
-
Now the applause.
-
-
I loved the view of the ascending vehicle with the four strap-ons and first stage core separated and falling away.
-
These guys can breathe a little easier with all the top brass in the same room ;)
-
Now the applause.
Congrats China! Hope the rest of the project (SZ 8, 9 and 10) goes well!
-
Happy dear leaders....
-
For the recorders: the launch time is 13:16:03:078 UTC.
-
Launch Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49aGnLOpdZs
-
-
I am so glad to see that the Chinese government has allowed us to watch this launch live. So open! They have taken a page from NASA's book. I love it! I hope this continues with future launches.
-
Launch Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49aGnLOpdZs
Wow, that was fast. Thanks a million!
-
Why do they separate the boosters from the first stage if 1-2 sep is at the same time? To make sure there is no thrust imbalance? But then S1 does have 4 engines, too, 4 engines should rather help to level these.
-
I am so glad to see that the Chinese government has allowed us to watch this launch live. So open! They have taken a page from NASA's book. I love it! I hope this continues with future launches.
Ditto. That's why I think the references to Soviet Politburo in this thread are somewhat unfair. The Soviets were never this open.
-
-
Congratulations China! A rising tide lifts all boats.
-
Can you believe that at exactly 13:16 GMT (T-0) SpaceX tweeted "Are you excited about the future of spaceflight". Hilariously bad timing ;D
-
So far nothing on CNN or its website about the launch.
Strange?
-
Why do they separate the boosters from the first stage if 1-2 sep is at the same time? To make sure there is no thrust imbalance? But then S1 does have 4 engines, too, 4 engines should rather help to level these.
Separation of the boosters takes place at T+155s and first stage separation takes place at T+159s
-
-
General in charge claiming mission success.
-
Good for China! Congrats!
All rocket launches are cool to watch, even Chinese ones!
:)
-
Why do they separate the boosters from the first stage if 1-2 sep is at the same time? To make sure there is no thrust imbalance? But then S1 does have 4 engines, too, 4 engines should rather help to level these.
This new version of the LM-2F rocket uses lengthened liquid boosters with a higher propellant load (the boosters for the original LM-2F separates at ~T+140s), and probably the engineers decided not to fix the boosters to the first stage, since it would require in-depth investigation on the effect of series staging (if it ain't broke, don't fix it).
-
Why do they separate the boosters from the first stage if 1-2 sep is at the same time? To make sure there is no thrust imbalance? But then S1 does have 4 engines, too, 4 engines should rather help to level these.
Separation of the boosters takes place at T+155s and first stage separation takes place at T+159s
OK, but why? I mean: it's an additional separation event and I don't think these 4 seconds will make a significant difference in payload/delta-v so there has to be some reason why they add a complex separation mechanism.
-
I suppose this is the time of TG-1 separation?
-
Reminder of Rui's excellent overview article, post launch:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2011/09/china-major-human-space-flight-milestone-tiangong-1s-launch/
-
So far nothing on CNN or its website about the launch.
Strange?
Both CNN and the BBC showed the launch live!
Keith
-
This new version of the LM-2F rocket uses lengthened liquid boosters with a higher propellant load (the boosters for the original LM-2F separates at ~T+140s), and probably the engineers decided not to fix the boosters to the first stage, since it would require in-depth investigation on the effect of series staging (if it ain't broke, don't fix it).
Ah. You mean they had versions with a shorter burn time before? THAT makes sense.
-
Why do they separate the boosters from the first stage if 1-2 sep is at the same time? To make sure there is no thrust imbalance? But then S1 does have 4 engines, too, 4 engines should rather help to level these.
Separation of the boosters takes place at T+155s and first stage separation takes place at T+159s
OK, but why? I mean: it's an additional separation event and I don't think these 4 seconds will make a significant difference in payload/delta-v so there has to be some reason why they add a complex separation mechanism.
Ah. I suppose that the generic characteristics of the boosters are the same on the two CZ-2F versions. We know that the boosters on CZ-2F/G have more propellant and thus a longer firing time. Maybe they haven't changed the timing of separation.
-
-
Did anybody get the orbit parameters? There was one of the controllers reading them out in Chinese and the commentator was translating them, but I did not get it all because of small breaks in the webcast. All I heard was "...gee of 350km and inclination of 42.75 degrees." So, what is actual apogee and perigee?
-
ESA quick with the congrats.
-
Did anybody get the orbit parameters? There was one of the controllers reading them out in Chinese and the commentator was translating them, but I did not get it all because of small breaks in the webcast. All I heard was "...gee of 350km and inclination of 42.75 degrees." So, what is actual apogee and perigee?
I missed the inclination, but they seemed to be talking about 250 km perigee and 350 km apogee.
This perigee altitude is around 50 km higher than we have seen on the Shenzhou missions. I am waiting for the first element sets from USSSN, but it might be a few hours before that happens.
-
Dont forget Sky Channel 510 CCTV News , live coverage continues
-
At separation, height was 199 or 200 km, so I believe that's the perigee.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sNGhhE4YwI
-
Ooops, Gemini programme description with a Saturn-5 launch and somehow the Luna 16 sample return mission slipped in there as well!
-
At separation, height was 199 or 200 km, so I believe that's the perigee.
Thank you! I wondered whether the new launch vehicle modifications would mean a higher orbital injection altitude than previously.
-
On this view, altitude was 199.157 km
-
Launch images
-
Best viewing experience: on my iPhone, CCTV-1, crystal clear, although delayed some 30 seconds...
-
Congratulations China! Let's hope this type of coverage is the first step towards a more open and cooperative stance of the space powers.
-
AFAIU, this screenshot gives a good view of one of the 2nd stage Vernier engines mobile assembly, similar to the one that was the cause of the failure on CZ-2C launch on August 18
-
Shortly after TG-1 seperation, video seemed to indicate the vehicle ignited its own engines. Is that indeed what happened?
-
So far nothing on CNN or its website about the launch.
Strange?
Both CNN and the BBC showed the launch live!
Keith
My mistake. I was watching BBC.
I stand corrected.
-
Perigee 200 km
Apogee 346.9 km
Inclination 42.75
-
Perigee 200 km
Apogee 346.9 km
Inclination 42.75
Slight change in orbital inclination, compared with the Shenzhou missions.
-
clearer picture of interior:
-
...and of the high gain antenna:
-
in this view, the 'red dot' seems to be (the only?) window, situated in one of the sleeping quarters...
-
So when is the first visual obs opportunity from ISS to eyeball the Tiangong out the cupola windows?
-
BTW, my old ears detected a consistent pronunciation of 'Tiangong' by the Chinese-speakers as
t'yenn-gung
They are the authorities and I try to do my best to ape their pronunciation.
-
...and 'Shenzhou' is to be pronounced 'Shun-djo'...
-
...and 'Shenzhou' is to be pronounced 'Shun-djo'...
This is due to the main problem we Westerners have with the official Pinyin system of transliteration. Most of us don't know how to pronounce Pinyin correctly (me included), as many letters have a totally different pronunciation than what we are used to. For example, the letter "r" is pronounced more like "j" and the letter "q" like "ch". Plus there is also the problem that Chinese is a tonal language, a single syllable can have different meanings depending on which tone is used to pronounce it...
Still, you can check out the wikipedia article on Pinyin to at least get sort of an impression on how you are supposed to pronounce it. Better yet, start learning Mandarin Chinese :P (I'm too lazy, tho).
-
In Russian, we write Тяньгун and Шэньчжоу. But what Chinese really say is closer to Тьханьгун.
-
Ah yes! I'm always getting my Тяньгун and Тьханьгун mixed up ;) ;D
-
there are two space stations in orbit for the first time since 2001
There remain major political differences in approach to the question of the extent of Chinese access to ISS. Realpolitik diplomats point out that in the past, the degree of international space cooperation was determined to reflect the degree of political detente already achieved -- it was a symbol of what existed already and a reward for desired behavior that had already been achieved. There is an alternate approach, which is to apologize for one's own country's arrogance and bullying, and offer the access as an inducement to future change of policies, and then think sweet thoughts, close one's eyes, and hope. So why not try that in space, seeing how well it has already worked in other areas of international discord, advocates of this policy say.
In practical terms, the Chinese seem happy with 42 degree orbital inclination [they had originally planned 52 exactly in order to be ISS-compatible but abandoned the idea, probably because of range safety issues] and have built ground site facilities [particularly in Namibia] to support it. It might not be so simple for them to get to 52 until Wenching is operational.
Mir, ISS, Tiangong: incidentally, how difficult would it be to have three stations at the same inclination ? Would that cause any issues ?
-
In this image the launch time looks like 1316:03.507UTC... Any help?
-
Congrats China!
ISS will always be my favourite space station, but Tiangong is cool too (to me, Tiangong is like a Land Rover, while ISS is like a Hummer - while I'd like to drive both, a Hummer is clearly more of a cool beast than a Land Rover). ;D
-
Congrats China!
ISS will always be my favourite space station, but Tiangong is cool too (to me, Tiangong is like a Land Rover, while ISS is like a Hummer - while I'd like to drive both, a Hummer is clearly more of a cool beast than a Land Rover). ;D
If Tiangong-1 is a Land Rover, ISS is a house. ;D
-
Congrats China!
ISS will always be my favourite space station, but Tiangong is cool too (to me, Tiangong is like a Land Rover, while ISS is like a Hummer - while I'd like to drive both, a Hummer is clearly more of a cool beast than a Land Rover). ;D
If Tiangong-1 is a Land Rover, ISS is a house. ;D
Anyone here seen Jurassic Park 2? If TG-1 is a Land Rover, ISS is that articulated mobile laboratory in comparison.
-
Can you believe that at exactly 13:16 GMT (T-0) SpaceX tweeted "Are you excited about the future of spaceflight". Hilariously bad timing ;D
Respectfully disagree. How is that bad timing?
A Chinese space station can only be good for the future of spaceflight.
In the spirit of the world's spaceflight capability, obviously the more the merrier.
In the spirit of American human spaceflight capability, us Yanks never really fund something like human spaceflight unless there's some sort of threat, usually just perceived.
China doing well with their human spaceflight program can only be good for NASA and NASA's human spaceflight program. Though it does seem like a lot in Congress no longer believe in America as a great nation, I think that deep down, they do believe and it just takes some sort of external perceived threat to remind them (no, I don't think Tiangong is any sort of real threat... I'm glad China is doing well with it... though it may be a perceived threat; competition is good, "coopetition" even better).
This launch does, indeed, make me more optimistic for the future of NASA's human spaceflight program.
-
Congrats China!
ISS will always be my favourite space station, but Tiangong is cool too
I think that Salyut 6 will be my favourite. With the long flights to the station the Soviets made manned spaceflight routine and for me it was fun to get my mission duration predictions right when it was operating!
-
More precise orbital parameters:
Perigee: 200.046
Apogee: 346.854
Inclination: 42.757
Orbital period: 89,7 minutes
-
Shortly after TG-1 seperation, video seemed to indicate the vehicle ignited its own engines. Is that indeed what happened?
Probably reflection. You could see the reflection "moved" from above.
-
In this image the launch time looks like 1316:03.507UTC... Any help?
Yes there was a screen at 85 seconds into flight or so where 507 ms were clearly seen and 03 sec could be guessed.
-
Some launch pictures:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/photo/2011-09/29/c_131168290.htm
-
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/special/tiangong1/
-
Is TianGong the smallest space station ever?
(not trying to put it down, just asking out of curiosity)
-
Why do they separate the boosters from the first stage if 1-2 sep is at the same time? To make sure there is no thrust imbalance? But then S1 does have 4 engines, too, 4 engines should rather help to level these.
Separation of the boosters takes place at T+155s and first stage separation takes place at T+159s
OK, but why? I mean: it's an additional separation event and I don't think these 4 seconds will make a significant difference in payload/delta-v so there has to be some reason why they add a complex separation mechanism.
The original CZ-2E featured booster operating time of 127 seconds and 1st stage operating time of 160 seconds. These boosters are supposted to be the same as for the CZ-3B. Length 15,326 metres, propellant 37,700 kg. The 1999 LM-2E User’s Manual published after the last CZ-2E had flown quoted 140 seconds which is the same for the CZ-3BE and CZ-2F. Length 16,094 metres propellant 41,100 kg.
http://www.calt.com/xwzx/ztxw/tgyh/CZZ2fyzhj/201109211106583e49da.html
http://www.space.cetin.net.cn/docs/ht9801/ht980111.htm
-
Mir, ISS, Tiangong: incidentally, how difficult would it be to have three stations at the same inclination ? Would that cause any issues ?
It's not just the inclination, it's the right ascension of the ascending node -- which when different by more than a few tenths of a degree makes interorbit transfers very expensive.
If one starts out in plane, different altitudes or different rates of decay will lead to different rates of orbital precession and you will drift out of plane.
If you try to maintain the same precession rate but are out of plane you will have orbital crossings twice per orbit with the prospect of repeated collision alerts.
If you try to stay in plane, you interfere with vehicles headed to the other targets in your plane.
I discussed the issue of Mir and ISS, same inclination but different RAANs, in my book 'Star-Crossed Orbits' [I was in charge of the orbital design team] and I think the chapter is on my home page -- let me go look for the URL.
-
More precise orbital parameters:
Perigee: 200.046
Apogee: 346.854
Inclination: 42.757
Orbital period: 89,7 minutes
That perigee (200km/125 miles up) will certainly have to be raised
soon. At that low altitude, drag will make itself manifest far too soon.
-
Still no TLEs...
-
I just finished watching the video somebody posted. Much better coverage than I expected. I really liked the second stage engine view and that hot glowing turbopump.
Congratulations China.
By the way, does anyone know of an original file (not a TV-recorded/partially obscured) of the graphic in this post?
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=14392.msg813120#msg813120
-
Thanks for the great coverage everyone, and klausd on that great YouTube video.
Congrats China.
-
Thank you all for the coverage. I woke up and followed this thread on my smartphone, laying in bed, just as the bird was launching. I hope there's similar live coverage on Chinese TV for SZ-8.
-
Finally (0430 GMT) some TLEs:
37820 2011-53A Tiangong 1 197 x 345 km x 42.8 deg
37821 2011-53B Stage 2? 197 x 327 km x 42.8
37822 2011-53C Sep motor cover 190 x 474 km x 43.0
37823 2011-53D Sep motor cover 192 x 522 km x 42.6
37824 2011-53E Sep motor cover 183 x 544 km x 42.6
(37825 2011-53F) Sep motor cover - no data yet
-
Photo suggests there is at least one backup for TG-1... or are these the three labs planned, already integrated?
-
Photo suggests there is at least one backup for TG-1... or are these the three labs planned, already integrated?
This suggests that if Tiangong 1 had failed to reach orbit or fails in orbit then there is a back-up vehicle that can be launched relatively quickly - that is, not having to wait a couple of years.
Assuming that Tiangong 1 goes well, I wonder whether the back-up will be modified to become Tiangong 2?
-
Optimistic/naive/stupid question I know, but will good launch pictures be released? I would enjoy watching the Chinese [and Indian and Japanese] space programs MUCH more if hi-res images were available of their various launches - ditto for early Sealaunch ones, too. Hi-res shots of Shenzhou's 5, 6 & 7 would be highly valued for their historical significance, but for me 500x800's just don't rate a second look :/
-
Some in info (in Chinese) about the CZ-2F/G and CZ-2F/H: http://www.calt.com/xwzx/ztxw/tgyh/CZZ2fyzhj/20110927105412c98744.html
-
Thanks everybody who contributed to this thread. I missed the launch yesterday, but reading this is almost as good. :)
-
Official Chinese report indicates two maneuvers by TG-1:
新华网北京9月30日电(田兆运、谢波)北京时间9月30日16时09分,在北京航天飞行控制中心精确控制下,天宫一号成功实施第2次轨道控制,近地点高度由200公里抬升至约362公里,顺利进入在轨测试轨道。
这次轨道控制是在天宫一号飞行第13圈实施的。此前,在30日凌晨1时58分,天宫一号飞行至第4圈时,北京飞控中心对其成功实施了第一次轨道控制,使其远地点高度由346公里抬升至355公里。经过两次轨道控制,天宫一号已从入轨时的椭圆轨道进入近圆轨道,为后续进入交会对接轨道奠定了基础。
So:
200x346 km -- initial orbit
200x355 km -- after first burn at 01:58 Beijing time
355x362 km -- after second burn at 16:09 Beijing time
TLEs seems to support the first two, still no for the third one.
-
There's a beautiful, fairly hi-res photo of the launch on the Guardian.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/picture/2011/sep/30/china-space?newsfeed=true#
Direct link: http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2011/9/30/1317367518106/Jiuquan-launch-centre-004.jpg
Well done!!
-
Official Chinese report indicates two maneuvers by TG-1:
新华网北京9月30日电(田兆运、谢波)北京时间9月30日16时09分,在北京航天飞行控制中心精确控制下,天宫一号成功实施第2次轨道控制,近地点高度由200公里抬升至约362公里,顺利进入在轨测试轨道。
这次轨道控制是在天宫一号飞行第13圈实施的。此前,在30日凌晨1时58分,天宫一号飞行至第4圈时,北京飞控中心对其成功实施了第一次轨道控制,使其远地点高度由346公里抬升至355公里。经过两次轨道控制,天宫一号已从入轨时的椭圆轨道进入近圆轨道,为后续进入交会对接轨道奠定了基础。
So:
200x346 km -- initial orbit
200x355 km -- after first burn at 01:58 Beijing time
355x362 km -- after second burn at 16:09 Beijing time
.
They raised the apogee first? Interesting...
-
Official Chinese report indicates two maneuvers by TG-1:
新华网北京9月30日电(田兆运、谢波)北京时间9月30日16时09分,在北京航天飞行控制中心精确控制下,天宫一号成功实施第2次轨道控制,近地点高度由200公里抬升至约362公里,顺利进入在轨测试轨道。
这次轨道控制是在天宫一号飞行第13圈实施的。此前,在30日凌晨1时58分,天宫一号飞行至第4圈时,北京飞控中心对其成功实施了第一次轨道控制,使其远地点高度由346公里抬升至355公里。经过两次轨道控制,天宫一号已从入轨时的椭圆轨道进入近圆轨道,为后续进入交会对接轨道奠定了基础。
So:
200x346 km -- initial orbit
200x355 km -- after first burn at 01:58 Beijing time
355x362 km -- after second burn at 16:09 Beijing time
They raised the apogee first? Interesting...
The first burn was surely simply to check that the propulsion system was working properly and also setting up the required apogee altitude for the second burn to circularise the orbit.
-
Which pad at JSLC was TianGong 1 (SLS-1 or SLS-2 or another pad)?
-
Which pad at JSLC was TianGong 1 (SLS-1 or SLS-2 or another pad)?
The same pad as used for all of the Shenzhou launches: Satori says that this pad is actually designated 921.
The second pad, 603, is only used so far for launches without strap-on boosters and unrelated to the piloted programme.
-
A bit of humor, Chinese State TV animation of the launch apparently played "America the Beautiful": http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-15123830
-
The one site I thought would be full of information about the successful launch is Chen Lan's "Go taikonauts", but as of moments ago, he still hasn't posted ANYTHING since a day BEFORE launch. What's happened to him?
-
After nearly a day without updates, Space-Track has started to catch up, with the following orbital data extracted for Tiangong 1 (dates/times are orbit epochs):
Sep 29.72 Incl 42.78 deg Period 89.82 min Altitude 198-333 km
Sep 29.86 42.78 deg 89.95 min 199-345 km
Sep 30.87 42.78 deg 91.44 min 336-355 km
-
One half of the fairing fell near Yemugai village (N383631E1094443), Shaanxi province.
About 100,000 people had been evacuated from this zone prior to launch.
(source (http://roll.sohu.com/20111001/n321128899.shtml))
-
A booster debris was recovered near Wulanwusugacha hamlet (N391601E1073634), Inner Mongolia.
(source (http://www.singpao.com/NewsArticle.aspx?NewsID=196890&Lang=tc))
-
One half of the fairing fell near Yemugai village (N383631E1094443), Shaanxi province.
About 100,000 people had been evacuated from this zone prior to launch.
(source (http://roll.sohu.com/20111001/n321128899.shtml))
I find it astounding that China, a country with a large coastline facing east, still launches far inland, where a large population is evacuated for every launch.
-
Which pad at JSLC was TianGong 1 (SLS-1 or SLS-2 or another pad)?
The same pad as used for all of the Shenzhou launches: Satori says that this pad is actually designated 921.
As in "Project 921"?
-
Which pad at JSLC was TianGong 1 (SLS-1 or SLS-2 or another pad)?
The same pad as used for all of the Shenzhou launches: Satori says that this pad is actually designated 921.
As in "Project 921"?
Correct, except that the pad designator is just "921", I understand.
-
From Xinhua:
Tiangong-1 reaches final orbit (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/video/2011-10/01/c_131171096.htm).
Tiangong-1 completes 2nd orbit transfer (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/video/2011-10/02/c_131171949.htm).
-
One half of the fairing fell near Yemugai village (N383631E1094443), Shaanxi province.
About 100,000 people had been evacuated from this zone prior to launch.
(source (http://roll.sohu.com/20111001/n321128899.shtml))
I find it astounding that China, a country with a large coastline facing east, still launches far inland, where a large population is evacuated for every launch.
Fairly typical military/intelligence agency paranoia at work: Put it deep inland far from population centres so that it is harder to insert spies into the site for espionage and/or sabotage. It demonstrates the site's origins as a top secret military site.
-
One half of the fairing fell near Yemugai village (N383631E1094443), Shaanxi province.
About 100,000 people had been evacuated from this zone prior to launch.
(source (http://roll.sohu.com/20111001/n321128899.shtml))
I find it astounding that China, a country with a large coastline facing east, still launches far inland, where a large population is evacuated for every launch.
Fairly typical military/intelligence agency paranoia at work: Put it deep inland far from population centres so that it is harder to insert spies into the site for espionage and/or sabotage. It demonstrates the site's origins as a top secret military site.
I've read that it was so it was more difficult to bomb. Right in the physical center of their defenses. Of course, launching east from the coast is not very useful for polar orbits. So, given the military needs, well to the north was not a bad choice for initial places.
Once everything was more open they started developing Wenchang. Which, incidentally, will be the only one able to launch the LM-5.
-
Best interior view up till now:
-
...and two additional interior views:
-
These pictures show that there does not appear to be a hatch which gives easy access to the service module area.
-
These pictures show that there does not appear to be a hatch which gives easy access to the service module area.
Probably means that the SM cannot be accessed from inside the pressurised module.
-
These pictures show that there does not appear to be a hatch which gives easy access to the service module area.
Probably means that the SM cannot be accessed from inside the pressurised module.
The point is that earlier on there was a lot of discussion about the hatch at the rear of the living/work module and what it would be used for. I assume it's there (it has been seen in other photos) but will only be used rarely for possible servicing.
-
I have combined the best interior shots into one image. Top row: forward, starboard, aft, port; bottom row: forward during outfitting, aft cgi
-
For reference, the diameter of Tiangong-1 is .4 meters wider than the FGB, and over a meter wider than Rassvet, the new Russian module at ISS.
Both the FGB and Rassvet have the feel of being corridors rather than rooms, due to their narrowness, but in the case of the FGB, the narrowness is a function of the extensive wall panels built into the FGB for stowage. The smaller of the two compartments of the Service Module is the same diameter as the FGB, but has less deep panels, so it appears to be almost as wide as the large 4.1 meter compartment.
Its hard to tell from these photos how much volume there is inside Tiangong-1, since that is a function of how deep its panels are. Certainly, it seems more like a room than a corridor.
-
It was mentioned on this thread, that Tiangong-1 has two CQs. Does it mean there will be two people on SZ-9 and -10, or can a third crew member sleep on board SZ?
-
It was mentioned on this thread, that Tiangong-1 has two CQs. Does it mean there will be two people on SZ-9 and -10, or can a third crew member sleep on board SZ?
Lots of speculation about SZ-9 and 10 crews here:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26854.0
-
I just read where its coming close to where the ISS is and might be seen.
Just wondering if the orbit could be considered a PR orbit much the same as Sputnik was a PR issue?
-
From Xinhua:
China's first space lab module in good condition (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-10/07/c_131177092.htm).
-
Toyama Astoronomical Observatory pictured TianGong-1 2011/10/07 17:14 JST.
http://www.tsm.toyama.toyama.jp/_ex/curators/aroom/satellite/tiangong20111007/tiangong120111007.htm
and movie
http://www.tsm.toyama.toyama.jp/tao/gallery/movies/20111007tiangong1video.htm
-
I just read where its coming close to where the ISS is and might be seen.
Just wondering if the orbit could be considered a PR orbit much the same as Sputnik was a PR issue?
No, every single low earth orbit intersects every other low earth orbit twice per orbit. There is no possible orbit China could have placed Tiangong-1 in that would *not* have had such passes.
-
According to STRATCOM, the CZ-2F second stage reentered to-day at 1027UTC over 16°N 144°E, which is in the Pacific about 300 km North of Guam.
(After 175 revolutions, inclined orbit 42.8°, descending)
-
From Chinanews.com via People's Daily:
Tiangong 1 releases first photo in space (http://english.people.com.cn/90783/7615284.html).
-
Hope that a camera is pointing in the opposite direction as Shenzhou 8 is approaching.
-
From Chinanews.com via People's Daily:
Tiangong 1 releases first photo in space[/url].
I presume that's the dish antenna for the Chinese TDRS comm link via their geosync relays. Cool!
-
The relay satellite antenna can be easily distinguished in the photo
-
A site (in Chinese) from CASC dedicated to Tiangong-1 & Shenzhou-8
http://1.202.156.53/web25/subject/n1/n25/n144/n212/n309/index.html
-
From Xinhua, China's space lab module Tiangong-1 ready for docking after postural adjustment (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-10/30/c_131220652.htm).
-
TG-1 made two orbit trims before the launch of SZ-8, one in the morning of October 26 (reported earlier by Phillip Clark in the SZ-8 topic) and another, a smaller one, on October 30.
-
Do we have an estimated docking time for TG-1/SZ-8?
-
Do we have an estimated docking time for TG-1/SZ-8?
I have seen multiple Internet sources that indicate a docking time of around 17:00 UTC on November 2nd (~1 a.m. Chinese time on November 3rd). Not sure of their credibility though.
-
A pretty good two-episode documentary about the preparations of the launch of TG-1 (unfortunately in Chinese, but maybe I can translate it over the weekend if I have time... ::)):
Episode 1 (http://jishi.cntv.cn/rwdl/classpage/video/20111102/100014.shtml)
Episode 2 (http://bugu.cntv.cn/documentary/C22786/classpage/video/20111102/100016.shtml)
-
A pretty good two-episode documentary about the preparations of the launch of TG-1 (unfortunately in Chinese, but maybe I can translate it over the weekend if I have time... ::)):
Episode 1 (http://jishi.cntv.cn/rwdl/classpage/video/20111102/100014.shtml)
Episode 2 (http://bugu.cntv.cn/documentary/C22786/classpage/video/20111102/100016.shtml)
That would be great! Thank you!!!
-
More background footage: Tiangong-1 interior tour before launch http://newscontent.cctv.com/news.jsp?fileId=120456
-
In the final post on this page: http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11753&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=210, it is claimed the docking unit is compatible with the design used on ISS.
Earlier, Yang Liwei stated the opposite: http://www.spacenews.com/civil/110801-china-space-station-module-readies.html.
Does anyone have conclusive info on this theme?
-
In the final post on this page: http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11753&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=210, it is claimed the docking unit is compatible with the design used on ISS.
In fact, this was a quote from here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=23897.435
-
In the final post on this page: http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11753&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=210, it is claimed the docking unit is compatible with the design used on ISS.
Earlier, Yang Liwei stated the opposite: http://www.spacenews.com/civil/110801-china-space-station-module-readies.html.
Does anyone have conclusive info on this theme?
I think they stated it was compatible with the IDSS. Which, when NASA puts the NDS for Comemrcial Crew/Orion, will also be compatible. But currently you have the Russian probe and cone (Soyuz/Progress/ATV) and APAS-95 (Shuttle) and of course the berthing CBM (HTV/Dragon/Cygnus). So, currently, ISS is not compatible with IDSS. And I don't know how well defined is the IDSS, so I'm not sure even with NDS on ISS they will be compatible. As far as I understand it, the IDSS is not a fully defined system, besides mechanical dock.
-
In the final post on this page: http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11753&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=210, it is claimed the docking unit is compatible with the design used on ISS.
Earlier, Yang Liwei stated the opposite: http://www.spacenews.com/civil/110801-china-space-station-module-readies.html.
Does anyone have conclusive info on this theme?
I think they stated it was compatible with the IDSS. Which, when NASA puts the NDS for Comemrcial Crew/Orion, will also be compatible. But currently you have the Russian probe and cone (Soyuz/Progress/ATV) and APAS-95 (Shuttle) and of course the berthing CBM (HTV/Dragon/Cygnus). So, currently, ISS is not compatible with IDSS. And I don't know how well defined is the IDSS, so I'm not sure even with NDS on ISS they will be compatible. As far as I understand it, the IDSS is not a fully defined system, besides mechanical dock.
This is a matter of semantics. AFAIK, IDSS has adopted the APAS-95 collar, but not the actual mating mechanism; however, the mating mechanism is field replaceable, so that an old ISS APAS could theoretically be made compatible with IDSS.
I am not sure how compatible the Chinese APAS variant is with APAS-95, either.
-
Hi! About docking mechanism in russian http://russian.news.cn/dossiers/2011-11/03/c_131228371.htm
Translate to English http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Frussian.news.cn%2Fdossiers%2F2011-11%2F03%2Fc_131228371.htm
-
From Xinhua,
Taiyuan Satellite Launch Center monitoring orbit space of Tiangong-1 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/photo/2011-11/10/c_131239063.htm).
China sets up management body for orbiting space lab (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-11/13/c_131244363.htm).
-
"Although China has been denied access to the ISS for two decades, Chinese technologists designed an androgynous docking system that allows any two similarly equipped spacecraft to dock with each other. Tiny adjustments could make the Chinese docking mechanism compatible with the ports of the ISS and U.S. space shuttles."
From: China space success, blessing to globe
English.news.cn 2011-11-14 21:04:11
At: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/indepth/2011-11/14/c_131246478.htm
Cheers!
Edited.
-
"The docking system, developed by Shanghai Academy Spaceflight Technology, is compatible with the docking mechanism and structure used on the International Space Station, the Soyuz spaceship and space shuttles, Xinhua News Agency cited Tao Jianzhong, a research fellow with the academy, as saying."
And, "He said that future international cooperation in space would be convenient in light of the compatibility."
From: China makes second successful docking
Updated: 2011-11-15 07:30
By Xin Dingding (China Daily)
At: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-11/15/content_14094224.htm
:)
-
During landing coverage of Shenzhou-8, Dr Yang Yuguang of CASIC confirmed that Tiangong-3 will be larger and have two docking ports. Could we expect it to be the prototype of the 'large station' core module?
-
During landing coverage of Shenzhou-8, Dr Yang Yuguang of CASIC confirmed that Tiangong-3 will be larger and have two docking ports. Could we expect it to be the prototype of the 'large station' core module?
China's "Salyut 6" ............
-
"Although China has been denied access to the ISS for two decades, Chinese technologists designed an androgynous docking system that allows any two similarly equipped spacecraft to dock with each other. Tiny adjustments could make the Chinese docking mechanism compatible with the ports of the ISS and U.S. space shuttles."
"Tiny" adjustments??
-
From Xinhua: Altitude of space lab readjusted for dockings in 2012 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-11/19/c_131256384.htm)
-
From Xinhua: Altitude of space lab readjusted for dockings in 2012 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-11/19/c_131256384.htm)
Is there enough data here for Phil to give us rough target date for SZ-9 launch? Some Chinese sources have quoted March.
How long will it take for orbit to decay naturally from 382km to 343km?
-
As the TianGong-1 project running smoothly, I ask if there's really a need for TianGong-2, which was reported the same size than TianGong-1. Why not directly jump to TianGong-3 which was reported recently as a larger version of TianGong.
Second, why China is looking to build a Mir-type station if other countries which are involved in the ISS are not really happy with the results from it?
-
China's space docking tech granted 15 patents
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/usa/business/2011-11/23/content_14147020.htm
Any one able to get a hold of these patents?
-
China's space docking tech granted 15 patents
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/usa/business/2011-11/23/content_14147020.htm (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/usa/business/2011-11/23/content_14147020.htm)
Any one able to get a hold of these patents?
You may want to use SIPO (State Intellectual Property Office of the PRC) patent search engine in English (http://59.151.93.237/sipo_EN/search/tabSearch.do?method=init) or in Chinese (http://www.sipo.gov.cn/zljs/)
-
I am wondering whether we might see any EVA activity for Tiangong 1 or Tiangong 2. Maybe not for TG 1 because the Chinese are cautious, but it might be part of the TG 2 programme - Shenzhou 11 and/or 12?
Tiangong does not appear to have a hatch which can be used for EVA work, so if there is to be an EVA I would assume that the Shenzhou orbital module will act as an airlock - as with Shenzhou 7.
-
I am wondering whether we might see any EVA activity for Tiangong 1 or Tiangong 2. Maybe not for TG 1 because the Chinese are cautious, but it might be part of the TG 2 programme - Shenzhou 11 and/or 12?
Tiangong does not appear to have a hatch which can be used for EVA work, so if there is to be an EVA I would assume that the Shenzhou orbital module will act as an airlock - as with Shenzhou 7.
Shenzhou 7 featured additional oxygen bottles.
http://news.hexun.com/2008-09-27/109361289.html
-
Second, why China is looking to build a Mir-type station if other countries which are involved in the ISS are not really happy with the results from it?
My guess? From what I understand, the USSR built the Buran in part because they were sure that the US Space Shuttle was designed with some secret military application in mind, which might only become evident once they had their own version. Maybe China has some ideas about ISS?
-
Second, why China is looking to build a Mir-type station if other countries which are involved in the ISS are not really happy with the results from it?
My guess? From what I understand, the USSR built the Buran in part because they were sure that the US Space Shuttle was designed with some secret military application in mind, which might only become evident once they had their own version. Maybe China has some ideas about ISS?
Don't think so, work on ISS is much more open today than the shuttle program in the seventies. If the chinese want to have information about the work done there, I'm sure they can get the informations.
Another question will be if perhaps the chinese 2020 station is not circling around the earth like the ISS ;-) that will be a surprise.
-
USSTRATCOM has catalogued 4 2nd stage debris (Objects C to F) which could correspond to 4 retro rocket fairing tops
37820 TIANGONG 1 2011-053A
37821 CZ-2F R/B 2011-053B
37822 CZ-2F DEB 2011-053C
37823 CZ-2F DEB 2011-053D
37824 CZ-2F DEB 2011-053E
37825 CZ-2F DEB 2011-053F
-
From Xinhua: Postcards sent from outer space (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-12/02/c_131284293.htm).
-
From Xinhua: Postcards sent from outer space (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-12/02/c_131284293.htm).
Do you know the email address? Up there?
-
From Xinhua: Tiangong-1 orbiter starts planned cabin checks against toxic gas (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2011-12/15/c_131308957.htm).
-
From Xinhua: Tiangong-1 orbiter starts planned cabin checks against toxic gas (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2011-12/15/c_131308957.htm).
Tiangong-1, a module of a planned space lab, will conduct one toxic gas check every month and assess whether any gas harmful to humans exists inside the cabin, as part of the efforts to smooth the way for the country's future manned space docking mission, according to BACC.
I had always the idea, that environment sensor are always on or is this something different?
-
A slightly different TV report on preparations for the up-coming SZ-9 visit to TG-1.
http://www.wasu.cn/Play/show/id/230961
Brief images of the interior of TG-1 with taikonauts/engineers working there at 0.37
-
Some interesting new pieces of information in this interview with Qi Faren, former chief designer of Shenzhou:-
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012-03/01/content_14734665.htm
TG-1 can sustain 60 man days of flight (three people for 20 days) maximum
The crew for SZ-9 has been chosen and has completed training
One of the SZ-9 crew will remain in in SZ and not enter TG-1 (I wonder if that really means that there will always be someone in SZ-9, rather than the same individual will remain there?)
-
Both from Xinhua,
Logistics, recycling key to China's space station: expert (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-03/01/c_131440652.htm).
Experiments going smoothly on Tiangong-1: Expert (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-03/01/c_131440699.htm).
-
The Chinese seem to have boosted TG-1 into a slightly higher orbit in the last 24 hours:-
http://www.zarya.info/Diaries/China/Shenzhou/Tiangong1.php
I don't think this is a surprise as the rate of orbital decy over the last few weeks seemed to be bringing it back down too quickly to the required orbit for SZ-9 operations.
I suppose we will need to see where the decay rate settles over the next few days before a new target date for SZ-9 can be computed?
-
Zarya.info reporting some unusual characteristics in Tiangong 1's behaviour while in it's current parking orbit.
http://www.zarya.info/Diaries/China/Shenzhou/Tiangong1Problem.php
Is this something which is being controlled, and managed, from the ground, or is it something more problematic?
-
Zarya.info reporting some unusual characteristics in Tiangong 1's behaviour while in it's current parking orbit.
http://www.zarya.info/Diaries/China/Shenzhou/Tiangong1Problem.php
Is this something which is being controlled, and managed, from the ground, or is it something more problematic?
If Tiangong-1 were suffering a thruster control issue or a pressure leak, it would indeed likely be tumbling, and such tumbling would be visible from the ground, and reported by the amateur satellite observers tonight.
-
FWIW, I tried to observe Tiangong-1 in clear skies last night, but it did not appear.
-
TG-1's orbit has been raised again in the last 24 hours, through two manouerves, in anticipation of the SZ-10 visit later this year. Details are here:-
http://www.zarya.info/Calendar.php
Based on the predicted rate of natural decay, it will be back in the operating orbit for SZ-10 operations by July. This is exactly the pattern we saw last year, with natural decay apparently allowing some flexibilty for the SZ-9 launch date between June and August 2012. However, in the event, the orbit was eventually lowered again, at around T-21 days, once the launch was fixed for the earlier of the available windows.
-
So what's to come after SZ-10? As revealed (well we already know most of it, but it's nice to get official confirmation) by CMSEO's chief Zhou Jianping (http://tech.sina.com.cn/d/2013-03-05/09158113597.shtml), SZ-10 will be the last manned mission to TG-1. However it will be kept in orbit for quite some time to check out the reliability and lifetime of various components on TG-1. This will help to get first hand experience on how to design components on the future Chinese space station. As a result TG-1 and TG-2 may have a chance of flying in orbit at the same time.
-
So what's to come after SZ-10? As revealed (well we already know most of it, but it's nice to get official confirmation) by CMSEO's chief Zhou Jianping (http://tech.sina.com.cn/d/2013-03-05/09158113597.shtml), SZ-10 will be the last manned mission to TG-1. However it will be kept in orbit for quite some time to check out the reliability and lifetime of various components on TG-1. This will help to get first hand experience on how to design components on the future Chinese space station. As a result TG-1 and TG-2 may have a chance of flying in orbit at the same time.
TG-1 launched with onboard earth-facing cameras and TG-1 may capable of receiving fuel from VVs so its orbit could be altered for a higher inclination orbit to give TG-1s cameras a larger range of targets to select from.
-
TG-1 launched with onboard earth-facing cameras and TG-1 may capable of receiving fuel from VVs so its orbit could be altered for a higher inclination orbit to give TG-1s cameras a larger range of targets to select from.
This has definitely been ruled out - see my recent post on the TG-2 thread. Not sure if it has enough delta-v to move to a much higher inclination (e.g. 51.6 degrees), but you can bet that the Earth observation mission will continue for quite some time.
-
Last Days for Tiangong (http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Last_Days_for_Tiangong_999.html)
-
It looks like Tiangong-1 is still going strong and is still very useful for conducting tests and experiments: http://www.spacechina.com/n25/n144/n206/n216/c609536/content.html
I have to admit that I do not really understand, what kind of tests these really are, since the translation via Google Translate is quite confusing.
So, maybe somebody here who speaks Chinese wants to give a better translation/explanation?
-
They have finished a series of experiments on battery pack charging curve and docking lock action, in order to get TianGong-1 ready for extended task. The objects of the experiments are to test the abilities of the locking system action, the docking lock drive motor and position sensor for long term orbiting.
-
It looks like Tiangong-1 is still going strong and is still very useful for conducting tests and experiments: http://www.spacechina.com/n25/n144/n206/n216/c609536/content.html
I have to admit that I do not really understand, what kind of tests these really are, since the translation via Google Translate is quite confusing.
So, maybe somebody here who speaks Chinese wants to give a better translation/explanation?
Not referring to the link, but there are two powerful multispectral cameras on TG-1.
IIRC TG-1 actually offers the highest resolution images for any Chinese civilian remote sensing satellites, and is likely remains so until the launch of GF-2 next year. So it make sense to keep it in orbit as long as possible.
-
Not referring to the link, but there are two powerful multispectral cameras on TG-1.
IIRC TG-1 actually offers the highest resolution images for any Chinese civilian remote sensing satellites, and is likely remains so until the launch of GF-2 next year. So it make sense to keep it in orbit as long as possible.
And the evidence these cameras is?
-
TG-1 indeed has High-Res Cameras. 10m resolution in fact. Here is an article about it being used to monitor Bohai oil leak.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/energy/2011-10/05/c_122121085.htm
天宫一号将对地球光谱探测 可测渤海漏油面积
2011年10月05日 11:13:03 来源: 新京报 【字号 大小】【收藏】【打印】【关闭】
昨日,记者从中国载人航天工程网获悉,载人航天工程空间应用系统副总设计师张善从表示,天宫一号将安排开展空间材料科学、空间环境探测和对地观测三个方面的空间科学实验。在对地观测方面,天宫一号将实验一种高分辨率光谱相机,实现对地球进行光谱探测。
光谱观测设备注重实验性质
据介绍,这次天宫一号对地观测将首次实验短波红外光谱仪探测,天宫一号上使用的对地观测设备与遥感系列卫星星载对地观测设备不同,后者使用的技术与设备都具有较高的成熟度,可直接应用;前者则注重实验性质,实验成功后观测设备才会用于卫星使用。
张善从说,未来中国的载人空间站也将是一个长期有人照料的国家级太空实验室,将支持几十个到上百个学科空间实验的开展。
探测设备分辨率最高可达10米
据悉,目前天宫一号已进入距离地面354千米的近圆轨道,并展开在轨测试工作。
张善从介绍,比如最近渤海漏油事件,普通的相机看不出来海面的变化情况,通过光谱仪可探测石油泄漏影响的海域面积,以及对海洋生态环境的破坏情况等。
据悉,这种光谱相机是国内第一种短波红外光谱探测设备,也是目前国内空间分辨率最高的一种设备,其空间分辨率最高将达到10米,而国外同类型仪器的空间分辨率都是百米量级的,甚至有1000米量级的。
据悉,在空间材料科学方面,将开展复合胶体晶体生产实验,复合胶体晶体生产是目前空间材料科学研究的热点,其中最具代表性的是光子晶体,被比喻为21世纪可能会带来信息技术革命的新材料。
Quick and Dirty google translate
Yesterday, reporters from the China Manned Space Engineering Network was informed manned spaceflight Shan, deputy chief designer of space application system from said Temple will arrange to carry out space space material science, space environment exploration and earth observation in three areas scientific experiments. In the area of Earth observation, Temple One will test a high resolution spectral camera to achieve spectral probing of the Earth.
Spectral focus on experimental observation equipment
According to reports, the Temple of Earth observation will be the first experiment to detect short-wave infrared spectrometer, used on the Temple of Earth observation and remote sensing equipment series spaceborne earth observation satellites of different devices, which use techniques and equipment have a higher level of maturity, can be applied directly; former experiments focus on the nature of the experiment will be successful observation equipment used for satellite use.
Shan from say, the future of China's manned space station will also be a national long-term manned space laboratory will support the implementation of dozens to hundreds of disciplines space experiments.
Detection equipment resolution up to 10 meters
It is reported that Temple One has entered from the ground near circular orbit 354 kilometers, and expand in-orbit testing.
Shan from the introduction, such as the recent oil spill in the Bohai Sea, an ordinary camera can not see changes in the sea, through the spectrometer can detect oil spills affect sea area, as well as damage to the marine environment and so on.
It is reported that this is the first spectral camera shortwave infrared detection equipment, is currently the highest spatial resolution of a device, the highest spatial resolution of 10 meters, while the spatial resolution abroad are the same type of instrument several hundred meters, and even the order of 1000 m.
It is reported that, in terms of space material science, will carry out the production of composite colloidal crystal experiments, the production of composite colloidal crystals is a hot current space materials science, which is the most representative of photonic crystals, are likened to the 21st century may bring IT The new material revolution.
-
Thanks, perhaps it is purely definition but I would have expected high resolution to be sub metre, or metre scale at the most.
That'snot a criticism, for many applications 10 m may be better than 1 m.
-
Well, for civilian remote sensing, 10m is actually quite good. The sub-meter NRO camera are effectively Hubble Telescopes looking at earth, and cost just as much if not more.
(http://www.thespacereview.com/archive/1809aa.jpg)
-
Well, for civilian remote sensing, 10m is actually quite good. The sub-meter NRO camera are effectively Hubble Telescopes looking at earth, and cost just as much if not more.
QuickBird, Geoeye and Worldview all offer metre to decimetere scale imagery. SPOT offers metre scale images, and there are other non-military systems that do the same.
-
Well, for civilian remote sensing, 10m is actually quite good. The sub-meter NRO camera are effectively Hubble Telescopes looking at earth, and cost just as much if not more.
QuickBird, Geoeye and Worldview all offer metre to decimetere scale imagery. SPOT offers metre scale images, and there are other non-military systems that do the same.
I don't think any of these satellites offers sub-metre multispectral images. Highest resolution is usually only available in panchromatic.
-
Well, for civilian remote sensing, 10m is actually quite good. The sub-meter NRO camera are effectively Hubble Telescopes looking at earth, and cost just as much if not more.
QuickBird, Geoeye and Worldview all offer metre to decimetere scale imagery. SPOT offers metre scale images, and there are other non-military systems that do the same.
I don't think any of these satellites offers sub-metre multispectral images. Highest resolution is usually only available in panchromatic.
Correct, but they do at metre scale.
-
i would expect NRO to do better than DigitalGlobe, but who knows, the details are classified. anyways back to topic, Tiangong obiviously has mission packages that beyond just a living space for shengzhou, so it will stay in orbit for a while evwn with no more shengzhou visits.
-
Article from Space Daily now that it has been in orbit over a thousand days.
http://www.spacedaily.com/m/reports/Chinas_first_space_lab_in_operation_for_over_1000_days_999.html
-
From Xinhua, China's first space lab in operation for over 1000 days (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-09/26/c_133675150.htm).
-
From Xinhua, China's first space lab in operation for over 1000 days (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-09/26/c_133675150.htm).
Mars mission duration and a bit more.
-
Not referring to the link, but there are two powerful multispectral cameras on TG-1.
IIRC TG-1 actually offers the highest resolution images for any Chinese civilian remote sensing satellites, and is likely remains so until the launch of GF-2 next year. So it make sense to keep it in orbit as long as possible.
And the evidence these cameras is?
In the paper Science Researches of Chinese Manned Space Flight linked to at http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=7058.msg1265866#msg1265866 characteristics are given for TG-1 hyperspectrometer instrument.
-
Not referring to the link, but there are two powerful multispectral cameras on TG-1.
IIRC TG-1 actually offers the highest resolution images for any Chinese civilian remote sensing satellites, and is likely remains so until the launch of GF-2 next year. So it make sense to keep it in orbit as long as possible.
And the evidence these cameras is?
In the paper Science Researches of Chinese Manned Space Flight linked to at http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=7058.msg1265866#msg1265866 characteristics are given for TG-1 hyperspectrometer instrument.
Lovely instrument. Ground resolution in full colour is about what you get with the best hand-held cameras with a good lens. More important is the swath width and spectral resolution.
While useful, the spectral resolution is not as good as CRISM for example.
So my guess this is a fairly small instrument.
-
Not referring to the link, but there are two powerful multispectral cameras on TG-1.
IIRC TG-1 actually offers the highest resolution images for any Chinese civilian remote sensing satellites, and is likely remains so until the launch of GF-2 next year. So it make sense to keep it in orbit as long as possible.
And the evidence these cameras is?
In the paper Science Researches of Chinese Manned Space Flight linked to at http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=7058.msg1265866#msg1265866 characteristics are given for TG-1 hyperspectrometer instrument.
Lovely instrument. Ground resolution in full colour is about what you get with the best hand-held cameras with a good lens. More important is the swath width and spectral resolution.
While useful, the spectral resolution is not as good as CRISM for example.
So my guess this is a fairly small instrument.
I am afraid not, it is a large piece of payload. The prototype was on display in Beijing and some photos are posted here: http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=84&pid=306720
After search on the Internet I found this photo, you can clearly see that in the intersection there are space for two large optical apertures.
-
Not referring to the link, but there are two powerful multispectral cameras on TG-1.
IIRC TG-1 actually offers the highest resolution images for any Chinese civilian remote sensing satellites, and is likely remains so until the launch of GF-2 next year. So it make sense to keep it in orbit as long as possible.
And the evidence these cameras is?
In the paper Science Researches of Chinese Manned Space Flight linked to at http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=7058.msg1265866#msg1265866 characteristics are given for TG-1 hyperspectrometer instrument.
Lovely instrument. Ground resolution in full colour is about what you get with the best hand-held cameras with a good lens. More important is the swath width and spectral resolution.
While useful, the spectral resolution is not as good as CRISM for example.
So my guess this is a fairly small instrument.
I am afraid not, it is a large piece of payload. The prototype was on display in Beijing and some photos are posted here: http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=84&pid=306720
After search on the Internet I found this photo, you can clearly see that in the intersection there are space for two large optical apertures.
Very nice! Hadn't seen that photo before. I agree it shows two significant ports in the tapered section between the crew section and the narrower service section. Thanks!
-
There are several pictures (and videos) showing the ports. Here are a few:
-
Can we work out the aperture from those images?
-
I am reviving this thread because the query relates to all three of the Shenzhou missions to Tiangong 1.
Have the Chinese announced or has anyone times from the video footage the times that Shenzhou 9 and 10 shed their orbital modules and also the times that retrofire started for Shenzhous 8, 9 and 10 please?
BTW, the decay rate suggests that if there are no further manoeuvres and Tiangong decays naturally, that will come around the end of this year.
-
When I made my last posting I had not realised that the orbit of Tiangong had been raised twice during April 9-10: first from 335-348 km to 335-391 km and then to 385-401 km - the latter being the highest orbit that the laboratory has used. It is interesting that since the Shenzhou 10 mission the orbit of Tiangong 1 has never decayed to the level of the 31-circuit repeating pattern - it only ever used this orbit during the three Shenzhou visits.
Has there been any Chinese discussion about the disposal of Tiangong 1? I am wondering whether it will be left to decay or whether it will be de-orbited over the Pacific as happened with most Soviet/Russian space stations.
-
Stumbled across some images posted on an apparent weibo account (http://weibo.com/earthsecret) for Tiangong-1's SWIR hyperspectral camera. More info here: http://www.msadc.cn/
-
When I made my last posting I had not realised that the orbit of Tiangong had been raised twice during April 9-10: first from 335-348 km to 335-391 km and then to 385-401 km - the latter being the highest orbit that the laboratory has used. It is interesting that since the Shenzhou 10 mission the orbit of Tiangong 1 has never decayed to the level of the 31-circuit repeating pattern - it only ever used this orbit during the three Shenzhou visits.
Has there been any Chinese discussion about the disposal of Tiangong 1? I am wondering whether it will be left to decay or whether it will be de-orbited over the Pacific as happened with most Soviet/Russian space stations.
Will Tiangong-1 be de-orbited to make way for Tiangong-2 operations?
Or will Tiangong-1 continue its (apparent) ground-controlled operations? Is it still functioning? Have the periodic orbit-raising maneuvers continued?
-
Orbit was raised in December, so still under control then.
-
China's 1st space lab Tiangong-1 ends data service (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-03/21/c_135209671.htm) (Xinhua)
"The flight orbit of the space lab, which will descend gradually in the coming months, is under continued and close monitoring, according to the office, which said the orbiter will burn up in the atmosphere eventually."
-
I feel sad, I think it should be sent to the museum in China, but we can't get it back, if only we could rent a space shuttle.
-
Was the cessation of control expected, or sudden? And how much hypergolic prop is left on board? Safety experts want to know.
-
Was the cessation of control expected, or sudden? And how much hypergolic prop is left on board? Safety experts want to know.
what i do know is based on TG-2 thread and the website for TG-1 data, the impression i see was that the two TG's were supposed to conduct tandem remote sensing operations until the successful launch of Cargo Freighter TZ-1 which is in itself flying new autonomous science instruments. this is discussed thoroughly in those threads.
-
Posted on my Facebook account a few minutes ago:
"Just done a ball-park calculation and unless there are further manoeuvres China's Tiangong 1 should re-enter the atmosphere around May-June 2018. A de-orbit burn might bring it down before natural decay - we don't know right now."
My guess is that Tiangong 1 will do a de-orbit burn when the period has decayed to about 89 minutes. Of course such estimates are prone to major inaccuracies!
-
The curent loss of communication and apparent lack of control is concerning. The success of Tiangong 1 could become a black eye just when they are attempting to launch the core module of their space station.
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Has_Tiangong_1_gone_rogue_999.html
-
Has Tiangong 1 gone rogue by Morris Jones Sydney, Australia (SPX) Mar 30, 2016
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Has_Tiangong_1_gone_rogue_999.html
:o ::)
-
The original announcement by Xinhua simply states that the satellite was 'disabled' on its intended orbit, after its extended mission ended. Presumably everything on schedule and in preparation for Tiangong 2 launch later this year.
I think 'this analyst' may be overthinking this. They simply parked the vehicle, in anticipation of Dr. Ryan Stone showing up.
-
The phrase "gone rogue" in this context amuses me. It gives far stronger implications than a loss of telemetry/control.
"I'm sorry CNSA, I'm afraid I can't let you do that."
-
From our observation visually, using video and still imaging we have felt Tiangong 1 was in trouble since late January. It is our belief ,for what it's worth from the peanut gallery, that the station is in a slow roll on it's minor axis. Did try and let others know but got crickets and that was before China's announcement about the station.
Believe China will wait until the very last minute to tell the world that Tiangong 1 is in trouble to save face if they say anything at all.
We are waiting on a new video camera then we will start attempting to do some high resolution imaging which should tell the story if it is stable or out of control. Then again we know of a few individuals that may beat us to the punch.
Since the station is not in a rapid decay we have time to figure out what is going on.
Regards
-
Here is are gray scale brightness graphs taken from images shot with a DSLR as the Tiangong 1 made a high pass crossing our meridian then moving down range. The images were average and cover more then a minute of time of the track in three 10 second exposure or so. Believe the flashes are as the station rolls and the flashes are cause by flares off the solar panel. In fact believe there is one report in the last day of visual observation of such a flare just before the station moved into the earth shadow. Believe these flare intensest depends on how the observer set on the track. Do not believe the solar panels are any longer sun oriented.
One again just the peanut gallery's opinion here.
Then again you can be the judge see attachment. Please feel more than free to throw rocks.
Regards
-
I believe that the answer to this thread's question is "no". "Gone rogue" is meaningless hype.
-
I believe that the answer to this thread's question is "no". "Gone rogue" is meaningless hype.
True ... he did spell "rogue" correctly, though, so +1 for that. "Gone rouge" would have been a red flag (or herring, or something). ;)
-
So do the well informed think there is a problem or is it all under control?
-
So do the well informed think there is a problem or is it all under control?
The wording of the Xinhua article suggests that TG-1 is no longer operational, and is expected to make an uncontrolled reentry, joining Skylab, Salyut 2 and 7, and Cosmos 557 in doing so.
After an operational orbit of 1,630 days, China's first space lab Tiangong-1 terminated its data service, the manned space engineering office said Monday.
The flight orbit of the space lab, which will descend gradually in the coming months, is under continued and close monitoring, according to the office, which said the orbiter will burn up in the atmosphere eventually.
-
More speculation on the Tiangong-1 situation from the same analyst, including notions that TG-2 or the CSS could be affected/delayed, and the suggestion that a third Tiangong module could be reconsidered as an engineering test.
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Lessons_from_Tiangong_1_999.html
-
More speculation on the Tiangong-1 situation from the same analyst, including notions that TG-2 or the CSS could be affected/delayed, and the suggestion that a third Tiangong module could be reconsidered as an engineering test.
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Lessons_from_Tiangong_1_999.html
Although a third Tiangong laboratory was scheduled, that was going to be a Salyut-sized station, like the core of the modular Tiangong space station. It was not going to be like Tiangongs 1 & 2.
Since Tiangong 1 exceeded its planned operating lifetime by a factor of two I do not see any need to squeeze in an extra mission. The cargo freighter variant will probably fly for around 6-8 months, so a 4+ years lifetime is not required.
-
According to this article Tiangong-1 may be headed for uncontrolled entry:
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/china-space-station-tiangong-1-could-secretly-be-hurtling-towards-earth-astronomers-say-a7132401.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/china-space-station-tiangong-1-could-secretly-be-hurtling-towards-earth-astronomers-say-a7132401.html)
-
"Secretly"? - what twaddle!!
-
"Secretly"? - what twaddle!!
I don't think the rest of it is that inaccurate.
Nor do I think using the word secretly is that bad in this context being as they haven't actually said anything on its status in sometime.
-
Assigning a value greater than zero as a representation of accurate technical/informational content to be found in a Brit tabloid is generally a losing bet.
-
There's no real evidence it's uncontrolled or uncontrollable. This opinion comes from one amateur astronomer who thinks it is rotating out of control because of the way it's reflecting sunlight as it goes overhead. No statements from China (because they're SO transparent about everything else) and a whole bunch of FUD makes this article.
-
Assigning a value greater than zero as a representation of accurate technical/informational content to be found in a Brit tabloid is generally a losing bet.
This is the Independent, a respected broadsheet. Not at all a tabloid.
-
My favorite malapropism from the Independent article is this:
...[Tiangong-1] appears to have gone into freewill, with China losing control of it...
Archie Bunker couldn't have said it better!
This article seems to depend heavily on the article, When Will China's 'Heavenly Palace' Space Lab Fall Back to Earth (http://www.space.com/33140-china-tiangong-1-space-lab-falling-to-earth.html), by Leonard David in space.com on June 10, 2016.
The Thomas Dorman quoted in the articles appears to be this NSF member Thomas Dorman http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=profile;u=47449 , so maybe enquiring minds could PM him?
Also, I've asked the mods to merge this thread with the Tiangong-1 thread (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=14392.0), which already has earlier re-entry discussions in it.
EDIT: Thank you, mods
-
Hmm.....after taking a look at the various news posted in Chinese forums, it looks like that while the state media didn't explicitly point out that TG-1 will re-enter the atmosphere without control, there are sources that do suggest that. For example, here's an article (http://tech.gmw.cn/2016-06/22/content_20662215.htm) on their newest fastest supercomputer:
.....the National Computational Fluid Dynamics Laboratory is satisfactory on the results of the simulated re-entry of Tiangong-1, allowing them to make precise re-entry point predictions....
...which fits in rumors that TG-1 suffered a power failure. Alas, they are only rumors..... :-X
-
Assigning a value greater than zero as a representation of accurate technical/informational content to be found in a Brit tabloid is generally a losing bet.
The independent is not a tabloid.
-
Please don't make me request that the thread be locked until closer to reentry. Lets get back on topic please. Thanks, RH117
-
zubenelgenubi
You are right that many of the articles showing up right now are heavily using Leonard David's article at space.com. Leonard is at a loss and some what amazed that by internet news standards his article on Tiangong 1 has once again found new life.
Also let it be known that some articles are carrying quotes we did not make and are fabrications.
In our discussions with Leonard we made a solid effort to give Leonard all sides of the issue and believe Leonard tried real hard to do a fair and balanced job to what he was reporting.
We were also asked to be part of the article seen in the London Sunday Time this past weekend but said no but do point them to the guys at Satobs and Nasa's Orbital Debris office for more expert advice for their article which we believe start all the articles many are seeing now on Tiangong 1.
At all times we made it clear to Leonard that we are not in any shape or form an expert but were no more than a long time back yard sky watcher/satellite observer. We never tried to claim to be otherwise at any time.
Regards
Thomas Dorman
-
whitelancer64
You can check what we stated here on NSF on the issue that we strongly believe Tiangong 1 is in a slow roll on it's minor axis which we told this to Leonard David. Just trying to make what we said clear. There is zero evidence that the station is tumbling just for the record. Then again we are no backing away from our belief that the Chinese no longer has control over their station this is not only based our observations but reports from the radio satellite observing community that they are no longer hear traffic on the up links or down links to the station. Our question is if China has no radio links to the station, which seems to be the case, then how do they bring it back in a controlled reentry? We will know who was right and who was wrong by no later the 2018. We are more than willing to eat our heaping helping of cold crow if we end up being wrong. ;D
Regards
Thomas Dorman
-
https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/753003731613024256
Despite recent stories, China's Tiangong-1 spacelab is not about to reenter. Let's see if it reboosts or not by 2017
-
Olaf and Phillip
Yes all kind of such non-sense is being posted on the internet about this. Also there have been claims it will come down at the end of this year which is not possible with it's very slow orbital decay right now.
Also chance of debris fall causing damage or casualties are showing up in article such as astrophysicist and spaceflight enthusiast Jonathan McDowell who told Mashable in an interview giving a 1 in 10,000 chance of of damage or some one being hurt. Then there was the post at shanghaiist.com using Sebastian Willems numbers based on NASA’s six-ton Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite (UARS) in 2011 had a 1 in 2,500 chance of causing a casualty. Sure we will see more such prediction show up in the coming year.
Still believe we are looking at a late 2017, early 2018 reentry window for Tiangong 1 barring we do no see the space station go into a tumble.
Also saw a post claimed China's last launch had a module that was being sent to Tiangong 1 to bring it back in a controlled reentry to Tiangong 1 is a bomb. This last one go figure some are stepping off into the twilight zone with such a post.
A lot of media has became more about sensationalizing the news than giving just the news and we cannot expect it to be different with this story. This is why we gave Leonard opposing views to what we believe because we want all perspectives on the issue to be heard and a hope just some basic common sense would prevail. Then again it seems common sense may not be so common. ;)
Regards
Thomas
-
Tiangong 1 through telescope
-
ace5
Can you give details about instrument used,camera, processing.Is there animated gif coming of the pass recorded or is this the only image captured? Also pass information as to distance, phase angle etc. Thanks
Regards
Thomas
-
ace5
Can you give details about instrument used,camera, processing.Is there animated gif coming of the pass recorded or is this the only image captured? Also pass information as to distance, phase angle etc. Thanks
Regards
Thomas
http://spaceweathergallery.com/indiv_upload.php?upload_id=115911&PHPSESSID=tiuj14s8a1h5kk1150f5l4e875
-
While searching for information regarding the Sunway Taihulight supercomputer, I notice something interesting in their project show case:
(http://i.imgur.com/wyAXIfq.jpg)
From the caption it appears to be stimulation of TG-1 falling at 62 km altitude.
application show case here.
http://www.nsccwx.cn/casedetail.php?word=case&i=58&id=106
The entire simulation took 16,384 computing nodes, 20 days to complete.
Edit, it appears to have an English language version as well with a different picture
http://www.nsccwx.cn/wxcyw/casedetail.php?word=case&i=58&id=109
(http://i.imgur.com/vCbUA8s.png)
-
https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/776001609130242048
Q: Tiangong-1 reentry situation? A: Currently at 370km, declining by 110m daily, uncontrolled reentry late 2017.
-
Sent to us by Leonard David
http://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/china-set-to-launch-second-space-lab-116091401188_1.html
China has always highly valued the management of space debris, conducting research and tests on space debris mitigation and cleaning, Wu said.
Now, China will continue to monitor Tiangong-1 and strengthen early warning for possible collision with objects.
If necessary, China will release a forecast of its falling and report it internationally, Wu said.
-
Hm...
The space lab is part of preparation to build space station by 2022 to rival Russia's international space station Mir.
-
Just heard on CCTV news. They use APAS on their TianGong-2 so other nations docking will be possible. Added that some details will need verification.
Edit: I wonder if he misspoke and meant IDA instead?
-
Just heard on CCTV news. They use APAS on their TianGong-2 so other nations docking will be possible. Added that some details will need verification.
Edit: I wonder if he misspoke and meant IDA instead?
Original docking system is based on licensed APAS. They were working on adapting it to the latest IDA standard.
-
JIUQUAN, Sept. 14 (Xinhua) -- China's first space lab Tiangong-1 is expected to fall into the Earth's atmosphere in the latter half of 2017, after about six years in space, a senior official with the country's manned space program said Wednesday.
article: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-09/14/c_135687885.htm
Tiangong-1 was launched in September 2011 and ended its data service in March this year, when it had "comprehensively fulfilled its historical mission," said Wu Ping, deputy director of the manned space engineering office, at a press conference here.
The space lab is currently intact and orbiting at an average height of 370 kilometers, Wu said.
It was in service for four and a half years, two and a half years longer than its designed life, and had docked with Shenzhou-8, Shenzhou-9 and Shenzhou-10 spacecraft and undertaken a series of tasks, making important contributions to China's manned space cause, Wu said.
"Based on our calculation and analysis, most parts of the space lab will burn up during falling," she said, adding that it was unlikely to affect aviation activities or cause damage to the ground.
-
It's fate has now made it to the UK press. I should add for those unfamiliar this is one of our broadsheet papers not a tabloid.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/sep/21/chinas-tiangong-1-space-station-out-of-control-crash-to-earth
-
It's fate has now made it to the UK press. I should add for those unfamiliar this is one of our broadsheet papers not a tabloid.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/sep/21/chinas-tiangong-1-space-station-out-of-control-crash-to-earth
Known as "The Grauniad" because of its frequent misprints.
-
It's fate has now made it to the UK press. I should add for those unfamiliar this is one of our broadsheet papers not a tabloid.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/sep/21/chinas-tiangong-1-space-station-out-of-control-crash-to-earth
Known as "The Grauniad" because of its frequent misprints.
There's an interesting history behind that (now no longer true) nickname, it was the only national newspaper not printed in London, it came from Manchester. Meaning the early editions they got in London were often rushed and prone to have errors. Still, one of the few quality newspapers left in the UK. </off topic>
-
It is now being covered in the Independent.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-space-station-tiangong-1-crash-tiangong-1-out-of-control-a7319916.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-space-station-tiangong-1-crash-tiangong-1-out-of-control-a7319916.html)
-
This plot shows the orbital height of the Chinese space station Tiangong-1 over the last year. Tiangong-1 is assumed to be out of control and will re-enter the atmosphere at some point in the next couple of years. It is probable that some large pieces will survive re-entry and hit the Earth's surface. It's impossible to say when and where the re-entry will take place, but it's unlikely to be over a populated area.
-
The Chinese report the latter part of 2017 for its re-entry.
-
Tiangong 1 brought down by dysfunctional battery charger
https://chinaspacereport.com/2016/09/30/tiangong-1-brought-down-by-dysfunctional-battery-charger/
-
http://gbtimes.com/china/chinas-tiangong-1-space-lab-fall-earth-between-october-2017-and-april-2018
-
http://gbtimes.com/china/chinas-tiangong-1-space-lab-fall-earth-between-october-2017-and-april-2018
Now let's wait the sensationalist reporting once this gets picked up more widely.
-
http://gbtimes.com/china/chinas-tiangong-1-space-lab-fall-earth-between-october-2017-and-april-2018
Now let's wait the sensationalist reporting once this gets picked up more widely.
Last year at the British Interplanetary Society's annual Sino-Russian Space Forum I was predicting the second quarter of 2018, although at the time there were some predictions for decay as early as August this year.
-
Phillip Clark
Still believe we are looking at a early 2018 reentry sometime between late January to early March. Last pass of Tiangong 1 we observed, a couple of weeks ago, looked like the space station is still stable and not tumbling. Unless it really starts to tumble our guesstimation of early 2018 looks like a good window for it to come back.
Star One
No matter how good the information is and how many disclaimers are put out to the actual risk the fly by media is going to hype it and sensationalize it . That is why we are still no talking to the media when asked with the exception of Leonard David who tries very hard to in being balanced and to give the facts and only the facts as a good journalist should.
-
Phillip Clark and all
Observed a pass of Tiangong 1 this morning with our 15 x 70 binoculars on a 76.1 degree max pass from approximately 9: 39:12 UT to 9:42:15 UT, June 8,2017 with a max magnitude +0.8, phase angle range running on observed pass from 45.4 degrees to 145.8 degrees. So we got a very good look at it. As usual it had the slight brightness variation of .2 to .3 in magnitude or so which is because the space station is in a roll but clearly no tumble is evident.
Regards
Thomas
-
This evening pass of Tiangong 1, SPC# 37820on a 58° max pass.
Frame 1: 8-24- 17 @ 1:56:17UT, the bright star near the lower left hand corner is Beta Ursae Minoris, center of frame approximately RA: 17h52m19s,Dec: +78°00'02'.
Frame 2: 8-24-17 @ 1:57:12 UT. the bright star upper left is Deneb,center of frame approximately RA:21h 20m 21s,Dec:+33° 27' 53" In this frame there is a power line running top to bottom.
Tiangong 1 is still in a slow roll and shows no sign of tumbling. We watched it visual and it had the usual slight magnitude variation we been seeing since January 2016 but did get a slight flare as it passed off to our east-southeast.
Shot with a Sony DSC-W5 Point and Shoot camera on stationary tripod, ISO 400,F/3.5, 20 second exposure.
Regards
Thomas
-
It looks like orbit decay been accelerated a bit in last few wks...
lmage from heavens above.
Titus
-
titusou
Do not believe we are seeing anything unusual it is what would be pretty much expected as Tiangong 1 interacts with the Earth tenuous upper Atmosphere causing more drag on the Space Station. With the significant increase in Solar activity over the last month would not be surprise to see this increase in decay become a little steeper. Even if it was losing 30 Kilometers a month you still are looking at a decay some where in the mid- January to mid February of 2018. We do have several high passes in the next few week will once again take a look to monitor for signs of the space station starting to tumble.
Regards
Thomas
-
titusou
Do not believe we are seeing anything unusual it is what would be pretty much expected as Tiangong 1 interacts with the Earth tenuous upper Atmosphere causing more drag on the Space Station. With the significant increase in Solar activity over the last month would not be surprise to see this increase in decay become a little steeper. Even if it was losing 30 Kilometers a month you still are looking at a decay some where in the mid- January to mid February of 2018. We do have several high passes in the next few week will once again take a look to monitor for signs of the space station starting to tumble.
Regards
Thomas
I think with the level of solar activity your prediction could be seen as something of a hostage of fortune.
-
Star One
Look at the graph you are looking at best a 6 Kilometer drop since the middle of August. We were projecting on a 30 Kilometer drop every month out to next year. We are still looking at a reentry time next year some where in the first three months 2018. One exception here to the prediction is if Tiangong 1 starts to tumble then we have a whole new ball game that is why we are doing as many observation of high passes of Tiangong 1 looking to see if it starts to go into a tumble! Also Solar active is going to have to kick into high gear over the next five month to change this drastically which we are now in a declining Solar cycle. Just because we see a little increase in Solar activity doesn't mean we will see this continue for five or six months down the road.
Regards
Thomas
-
Star One
Look at the graph you are looking at best a 6 Kilometer drop since the middle of August. We were projecting on a 30 Kilometer drop every month out to next year. We are still looking at a reentry time next year some where in the first three months 2018. One exception here to the prediction is if Tiangong 1 starts to tumble then we have a whole new ball game that is why we are doing as many observation of high passes of Tiangong 1 looking to see if it starts to go into a tumble! Also Solar active is going to have to kick into high gear over the next five month to change this drastically which we are now in a declining Solar cycle. Just because we see a little increase in Solar activity doesn't mean we will see this continue for five or six months down the road.
Regards
Thomas
To play devils advocate it also doesn't mean that we will not see this greater activity continue. The problem with all these cycles we impose on the Sun is we just haven't been studying it long enough to see the longer cycles. I've seen this argued by those far wiser in such things than me.
-
Even specialists in the field of estimating orbital decays admit that it is more of an art than an exact science!
-
Let's throw another fly in the ointment! The 22 year solar magnetic cycle and the effects on Earth's atmosphere.
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0004-6256/144/1/6
Rarely do you hear any one talk about this cycle and it's effects.
Still been observing and tracking satellites for five decades, our first satellite being Echo II, if we are wrong on our prediction will be more than willing to eat our whole heaping helping of cold crow barring as we have caveat that we do not see Tiangong -1 start tumbling and it remains in a roll until reentry interface.
Regards
Thomas
-
I tried to overlay 37820 (shallow line) meaning height over to 41477 (steep line). Attached image is what I got.
37820 = Tiangong1, image is compress vertically to get the same meaning height grid with 41477
41477 = Nodes2 cubesat launch from ISS (somehow but Heavns-Above.com wrote it as Nodes1)
I know there are alot of variables will affect orbit decay, but a simple comparison:
360->340km: 41477 = 2.1mons; 37280 = 4.8mons
340->320km: 41477 = 2.0mons; 37280 = 4.2mons
I guess that's indication of 37820's BC is ~2.2 times of 41477.
For 41477, 320->260km is 2.2mons
If everything goes liner, it will take 37820 4~5mons to reach 260km, which place the timing to mid-Jan~mid-Feb,2018.
I'm really curious to see how accurate that goes.
Titus
--
(edited for typo fix)
-
When I presented my Tiangong 1 paper at the Sino-Russian Technical Forum of the British Interplanetary Society on May 21, 2016 I gave "rough estimate for decay: second quarter of 2018".
-
When I presented my Tiangong 1 paper at the Sino-Russian Technical Forum of the British Interplanetary Society on May 21, 2016 I gave "rough estimate for decay: second quarter of 2018".
In my world the first question after that would be... FY or CY? ;ppp
But seriously, do you see current behavior fit to your prediction?
Titus
-
When I presented my Tiangong 1 paper at the Sino-Russian Technical Forum of the British Interplanetary Society on May 21, 2016 I gave "rough estimate for decay: second quarter of 2018".
In my world the first question after that would be... FY or CY? ;ppp
But seriously, do you see current behavior fit to your prediction?
Titus
I simply averaged out the short-term irregularities and used a "best fit" curve based upon the decay rate from December 2015 (the last manoeuvre) to May 2016.
-
Found something interesting to read, not directly related to Tiangong1, but about Skylab deorbit story.
http://www.spaceref.com/iss/skylab.deorbit.html
Titus
-
This morning pass of Tiangong 1 at 10:28 UT September 14,2017 on a max pass of 86 degrees. Three video clips shot between 70 degrees to around 30 degrees elevation with phase angles ranging from 58 degrees to 134 degrees. Distances ranged from 334.4 Kms to around 590.9 Kms. Also observed it visually Tiangong 1 shows zero signs of any tumble.
https://vimeo.com/233879455
Regards
Thomas
-
http://www.newsweek.com/china-tiangong-1-out-control-space-station-crash-earth-2018-666836?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=yahoo_news&utm_campaign=rss&utm_content=/rss/yahoous/news&yptr=yahoo
The prediction made by Aerospace Corporation in this article is pretty much the prediction some of us in the Amateur satellite observing community made back in early 2016 to the window of reentry! Once again unless we see Tiangong 1 start to tumble this window for reentry still stands.
Let get's some facts straight Tiangong 1 doesn't orbit over 2/3 of the Earth Ocean it goes no more than 42 degrees North or South of the Equator. This leaves 48 degrees North or South of the Equator the Space Station never passes over.
Yep, its orbit does take it over some of the most populated areas on the planet.
So we are going to pony up now with our prediction of odds of damage or casualties on the ground. Believe the odds come down to if the space station is still in a roll or what degree of tumble the space station has at reentry. So going to give a range at 1 in 2600 to a 1 in 3100 chances of damage or casualties on the ground.
Now some of the numbers on the amount of debris making it to the ground, given by some experts, have ranged in 40 to 80 pounds ranging up to 200 to 300 pounds. We believe, we know we are going to take a beating on this one, that the debris will be in an order of a little less than 1 metric ton or somewhere near or around 2000 pounds.
Let the games begin with the media and the "Experts"! ;D ;) :)
Regards
Thomas
-
Nodes2 (41477) is now deorbited, so it give a pretty good background info to compare with Tiangong1 (37820).
I will try to keep this up-to-date monthly update so we have better comparison.
Titus
-
Article in the Guardian about the TG-1 reentry featuring some quotes from jcm.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/oct/13/tiangong-1-chinese-space-station-will-crash-to-earth-within-months
-
Monthly update on my tracking graph
-
Shameless self-promotion since I get quoted in this!
https://gbtimes.com/chinas-tiangong-1-space-lab-will-soon-reenter-the-atmosphere-but-theres-no-need-to-panic
-
Chinese Space Station Tiangong 1 this morning at 11:26 UT,11-02-2017 on a high 89° pass. Shot this 30-second time exposure with our point and shot camera as Tiangong 1 came out of the earth's shadow and running through the constellation of Gemini. Still in a slow roll not sign of tumbling. Also observed it with our 15x70 binocular and did not detect any tumble. Enjoy! Regards Thomas
-
ESA Joins Reentry Campaign
6 November 2017
ESA experts will host an international campaign to monitor the reentry of a spacecraft expected early next year.
Early next year, an uncrewed Chinese space station, Tiangong-1, is expected to reenter the atmosphere following the end of its operational life, during which most of the craft burn should up.
ESA will host a test campaign to follow the reentry, which will be conducted by the Inter Agency Space Debris Coordination Committee (IADC (http://www.iadc-online.org/)).
IADC comprises space debris and other experts from 13 space agencies/organisations, including NASA, ESA, European national space agencies, JAXA, ISRO, KARI, Roscosmos and the China National Space Administration.
IADC members will use this event to conduct their annual reentry test campaign, during which participants will pool their predictions of the time window, as well as their respective tracking datasets obtained from radar and other sources. The aim is to cross-verify, cross-analyse and improve the prediction accuracy for all members.
ESA will act as host and administrator for the campaign, as it has done for the twenty previous IADC test campaigns since 1998. A special case for ESA was the campaign in 2013 during the uncontrolled reentry of ESA’s own GOCE satellite (http://blogs.esa.int/rocketscience/tag/goce/).
Heavenly palace
The Tiangong-1 spacecraft is 12 m long with a diameter of 3.3 m and had a launch mass of 8506 kg. It has been unoccupied since 2013 and there has been no contact with it since 2016.
The craft is now at about 300 km altitude in an orbit that will inevitably decay sometime between January and March 2018, when it will make an uncontrolled reentry.
“Owing to the geometry of the station’s orbit, we can already exclude the possibility that any fragments will fall over any spot further north than 43ºN or further south than 43ºS,” says Holger Krag, Head of ESA’s Space Debris Office.
“This means that reentry may take place over any spot on Earth between these latitudes, which includes several European countries, for example.”
“The date, time and geographic footprint of the reentry can only be predicted with large uncertainties. Even shortly before reentry, only a very large time and geographical window can be estimated.”
Owing to the station’s mass and construction materials, there is a possibility that some portions of it will survive and reach the surface.
In the history of spaceflight, no casualties due to falling space debris have ever been confirmed.
ESA’s Space Debris Office, based at the European Space Operations Centre, Darmstadt, Germany, will concurrently conduct an international expert workshop (https://reentry.esoc.esa.int/index.html#home_workshop) in the week of 28 February, focusing on reentry predictions and atmospheric break-up studies, enabling experts to share their latest findings and research in these and related topics.
Separate from the IADC campaign, ESA will regularly update ESA Member State civil authorities with detailed information on the reentry, as it does during all such events.
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Operations/Space_Debris/ESA_joins_reentry_campaign
-
Tiangong I Target Vehicle Orbital Status Weekly Report ( November 6 to November 12 )
According to the announcement of China Manned Space Agency(CMSA), during November 6 to November 12, 2017, Tiangong I orbited at an average altitude of 301.0 km (perigee: 284.5 km; apogee: 317.5 km; inclination: 42.76°), with stabilized attitude control and well-functioned performance.
http://en.cmse.gov.cn/art/2017/11/14/art_1763_31968.html
-
Wouldn't bank on this as proof they have control over the station this is a standard post with only orbit data information being changed which they have been posting for months.
Regards Thomas
-
Update on orbit height tracking.
-
https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/952631385268858881
Tiangong-1's orbit today is 266 x 289 km. Predicted reentry at http://www.aerospace.org/cords/reentry-predictions/tiangong-1-reentry/ … continues to trend later... now late March (a couple weeks ago they were predicting late Feb/early March )
-
https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/952631385268858881
Tiangong-1's orbit today is 266 x 289 km. Predicted reentry at http://www.aerospace.org/cords/reentry-predictions/tiangong-1-reentry/ … continues to trend later... now late March (a couple weeks ago they were predicting late Feb/early March )
My current prediction is March 21st +/- two weeks. My original May 2016 prediction was the "second quarter" of 2018.
-
TIANGONG-1 FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
http://blogs.esa.int/rocketscience/2018/01/16/tiangong-1-frequently-asked-questions-2/
-
TIANGONG-1 REENTRY UPDATES
Update 12 January 2017
The current estimated window is ~17 March to ~21 April; this is highly variable.
Reentry will take place anywhere between 43ºN and 43ºS (e.g. Spain, France, Portugal, Greece, etc.). Areas outside of these latitudes can be excluded. At no time will a precise time/location prediction from ESA be possible. This forecast will be updated approximately every week in January and February.
http://blogs.esa.int/rocketscience/2018/01/12/tiangong-1-reentry-updates/
-
Well known Satellite videographer Kevin Fetter in Canada capture a pass of Tiangong 1 January 17,2018.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fla9_8cSSY
The station show no sign of tumbling and has a steady brightness. Hope to get an observation next week if weather will improve as forecasted.
Regards
Thomas
-
Cross posting this here.
This morning I joined Matt Bubala's radio program in Chicago to talk about Tiangong-1, which is predicted to reenter the atmosphere between March-April 2018.
Despite the headline, we did not talk about Zuma... so no conspiracy theories that it got cut from the audio. ;D
http://wgnradio.com/2018/01/20/zuma-x-and-chinas-falling-space-lab/
-
Philip Smith high resolution image and video of Tiangong 1. Seems in this video it's in a roll?
http://spaceweathergallery.com/indiv_upload.php?upload_id=142049
Regards
Thoma
-
Philip Smith high resolution image and video of Tiangong 1. Seems in this video it's in a roll?
http://spaceweathergallery.com/indiv_upload.php?upload_id=142049
Regards
Thoma
Interesting. I wonder why he has a Shenzhou photo at the top of the page about Tiangong ..........
-
Phillip Clark
I wonder why he has a Shenzhou photo at the top of the page about Tiangong ..........
Think he just messed in posting the wrong image. We are still have a question into Mr. Smith asking what type of mount was used in the imaging. If a Azimuth mount what looks like roll could be field rotation if Equatorial mount then looks pretty clear it's in a roll! Have a Message into Mr. Smith if we do get a reply we will ask your question.
Regards
Thomas
-
https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/955051611470131205
Newest #Tiangong1 reentry forecast window is 16 Mar-14 Apr (this is highly variable). See updated altitude & reentry charts in our Rocket Science blog http://blogs.esa.int/rocketscience/2018/01/12/tiangong-1-reentry-updates/ …
-
Tiangong 1 this evening on a 67 degree max pass. Visually watched it, stead throughout the pass zero sign of any tumble! Image was shot as it moves off to our southeast as Tiangong 1 was going into earth's shadow. Shot with our point and shoot camera 30 second exposure 400 ISO, still tripod. This was shot right near the end of nautical twilight for our location
Regards Thomas
-
http://blogs.esa.int/rocketscience/2018/01/12/tiangong-1-reentry-updates/
Update 26 January 2017
The current estimated window is ~18 March to ~12 April; this is highly variable.
Reentry will take place anywhere between 43ºN and 43ºS (e.g. Spain, France, Portugal, Greece, etc.). Areas outside of these latitudes can be excluded. At no time will a precise time/location prediction from ESA be possible. This forecast will be updated approximately every week in January and February.
-
I did a simulation to predict the Tiangong-1 reentry date.
I used 65 TLEs to calculate the initial state (radius vector and velocity) of the station for the TLE epoch with the SGP4 propagator. Then, for each TLE I propagate the state with a specially crafted propagator (based on a DOPRI853 integrator); here is the result:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-01-27_NASA_date.png)
the y axis shows the predicted reentry dates and goes from 2018-04-05 14:00 to 2018-04-06 23:00. The mean date is 2018-04-06 05:11.
The next graph show the apoapsis radius vector referred to a sphere with a radius equal to 6371 km (just to show an approximate altitude):
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-01-27_NASA_apo.png)
I used the SGP4 propagator to calculate the radius vector and 1 dot is 1 TLE.
There are 3 strange discontinuities: 2018-01-21, 24 and 26. I argue that they are 3 micro reboosts done with the RCS.
I also argue that those reboosts and some kind of controlled attitude variation of the Chinese station are the reasons for the shift in the reentry date (first graph).
Is that possible? Any information about that?
-
“航天器无控再入大气层”
http://www.cmse.gov.cn/col/col1819/index.html
-
Cristiano
There are 3 strange discontinuities: 2018-01-21, 24 and 26. I argue that they are 3 micro reboosts done with the RCS.
I also argue that those reboosts and some kind of controlled attitude variation of the Chinese station are the reasons for the shift in the reentry date (first graph)
This station has been dead since 2016 and anomalies in your data are artifacts or gravitational anomalies that have became even more pronounced as the orbit has lowered. Also you cannot rule out now some effects from atmospheric interaction at this very low attitude. Remember at this low altitude it's not a perfect vacuum the station is starting to get greater drag from the atmosphere.
Also you would have to explain why at this late date the Chinese would start trying to do orbital boost. Until we are within a couple weeks of reentry any real prediction of reentry dates or time are pretty much useless right now.
One last point if the Chinese had any such control over the station wouldn't it be more likely they would start to make the station tumble to assure a better break up on reentry?
-
This station has been dead since 2016
According to this site:
http://en.cmse.gov.cn/col/col1763/index.html
that’s not true.
and anomalies in your data are artifacts or gravitational anomalies that have became even more pronounced as the orbit has lowered.
Here is an ISS reboost:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/ISS_2018-01-27_reebost.png)
(the radius vector scale is 9 km as in the Tiangong-1 graph)
taken from:
https://spaceflight.nasa.gov/realdata/sightings/SSapplications/Post/JavaSSOP/orbit/ISS/SVPOST.html
reported as:
IMPULSIVE TIG (GMT) M50 DVx(FPS) LVLH DVx(FPS) DVmag(FPS)
IMPULSIVE TIG (MET) M50 DVy(FPS) LVLH DVy(FPS) Invar Sph HA
DT M50 DVz(FPS) LVLH DVz(FPS) Invar Sph HP
------------------------------------------------------------------------
017/20:15:07.803 0.7 0.8 0.8
N/A 0.4 -0.1 221.6
000/00:00:15.606 -0.2 -0.0 214.1
I don’t see any artifact and the deltaV showed in the graph is 0.231 m/s (0.75 ft/s), which matches 0.8 ft/s stated in that site.
The decay rates are clearly different, but there are no artifacts neither in the ISS graph nor in the Tiangong-1 graph.
Also you cannot rule out now some effects from atmospheric interaction at this very low attitude. Remember at this low altitude it's not a perfect vacuum the station is starting to get greater drag from the atmosphere.
You’re right and the high drag can significantly change the trajectory shape when the attitude is changed.
Also you would have to explain why at this late date the Chinese would start trying to do orbital boost.
Rehearsal; China is doing some kind of test to change the reentry trajectory at the right moment.
Until we are within a couple weeks of reentry any real prediction of reentry dates or time are pretty much useless right now.
You are very optimist! :) I’d say a couple of days.
One last point if the Chinese had any such control over the station wouldn't it be more likely they would start to make the station tumble to assure a better break up on reentry?
When the atmospheric density will be high enough (probably 120 – 130 km), the station will take the attitude with the solar panel array on the astern; there will be no tumbling.
-
Cristiano
The station is dead the link you gave has been looking the same since back in 2016. The station is in a slow roll and has been since early 2016. If Chinese had the ability to control where the station would come down they would have taken it out of orbit before now!
You are believing nothing more than Chinese propaganda on this! Sources back in late 2016 reported the unit that charged the batteries off the solar panels had failed.
China is in a save face mode right now and trying to calm international criticism in the world press and from foreign governements.
Believe if the hysteria in the world media gets to loud and with the addition of criticism from foreign leaders getting out of hand would not be surprised China tries to break it up wit a anti-satellite missile!
We will know in about 2 month who was right.
-
Doesn't this thread beg to be retitled?
-
Hi Thomas,
The station is dead the link you gave has been looking the same since back in 2016. The station is in a slow roll and has been since early 2016.
Do you have any source for that? Visual observations?
If Chinese had the ability to control where the station would come down they would have taken it out of orbit before now!
That’s impossible, because the two main engines don’t work.
I’m pretty sure that they have the control of the RCS, because it seems confirmed by both my simulation and TLEs (I believe that this is too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence). They just need to wait until the last 10 to 20 orbits before to start the RCS to deorbit and to keep the station in a high drag attitude.
You are believing nothing more than Chinese propaganda on this!
I just believe my simulations and the TLE data.
We will know in about 2 month who was right.
Sure and I can be, without any doubt, completely wrong; but as an astronomy enthusiast, I like to do some investigations about this topic and I posted graphs and data, but you are talking about artifacts, propaganda and conspiracy; to be honest, I’m not very interested in that topic.
-
My current prediction is March 21st +/- two weeks. My original May 2016 prediction was the "second quarter" of 2018.
Please, if possible, could you say some simulation details?
-
This station has been dead since 2016 and anomalies in your data are artifacts [...]
Here is another big artifact:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-01-27_NASA_apo2.png)
706 m, this time!
-
Cristiano
The station is dead the link you gave has been looking the same since back in 2016. The station is in a slow roll and has been since early 2016.
The data you give suggest it's been stable for months
If Chinese had the ability to control where the station would come down they would have taken it out of orbit before now!
Opinion, not evidence.
You are believing nothing more than Chinese propaganda on this! Sources back in late 2016 reported the unit that charged the batteries off the solar panels had failed.
What sources? How credible?
China is in a save face mode right now and trying to calm international criticism in the world press and from foreign governements.
Ethic and cultural stereotyping is not evidence.
Believe if the hysteria in the world media gets to loud and with the addition of criticism from foreign leaders getting out of hand would not be surprised China tries to break it up wit a anti-satellite missile!
We will know in about 2 month who was right.
This is FUD pure and simple.
-
That’s impossible, because the two main engines don’t work.
What's the source for this?
-
That’s impossible, because the two main engines don’t work.
What's the source for this?
http://blogs.esa.int/rocketscience/2018/01/16/tiangong-1-frequently-asked-questions-2/
question: "Q. What was the original disposal plan?"
It's not explicitly said " it can no longer be commanded to fire its [main] engines", but it's clear from the context of the question.
-
http://blogs.esa.int/rocketscience/2018/01/16/tiangong-1-frequently-asked-questions-2/
question: "Q. What was the original disposal plan?"
It's not explicitly said " it can no longer be commanded to fire its [main] engines", but it's clear from the context of the question.
Not a primary source then.
-
Here’s a Monte Carlo simulation for the reentry date:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-02-14_MT.png)
I use the SGP4 propagator to calculate the initial state of the Tiangong-1 for the TLE epoch, then I propagate it with a specially crafted propagator (based on a DOPRI853 integrator).
Then, for 49 times I add a normally distributed random offset to the initial radius vector and I propagate the new random state.
I obtained 50 reentry dates from the original TLEs (the blue dots) and 2450 reentry dates from the modified initial states (the gray dots).
The confidence interval is just based on the variance of the reentry dates.
The simulation took about 4.4 hours of CPU time.
-
http://blogs.esa.int/rocketscience/2018/02/09/tiangong-1-spotted-from-spain/
Tiangong-1 spotted from Spain
-
Tiangong 1 this morning on a max 89° pass at 12:13 UT on a 15 second exposure. Tiangong 1 shows not sign of tumbling.
Regards
Thomas
-
Dalhousie
Fact radio satellite observers had been hearing signals from the station since it was launch 2011 after early 2016 they stop hearing any signals out of Tiangong 1. Fact!
Fact the China Communist have gone into save face mode over many issues over the years which has been well documented, it not stereotyping as you claim it's fact. In addition have a good friend who lives in that part of the world and is very versed in Chinese culture especially when it come to the Chinese communist government and on this he agrees with my assignment of the Chinese government being in a save face mode on Tiangong 1!
From my observation in very late 2015 we knew the station was in trouble and from observation through January, February and early March of 2016 doing visual, video and photographic observation had figured out the station was dead or in the process of dying. Fact! We just did not walk out one night and say oh Tiangong 1 is in trouble we had been regularly observing the station visually and photographically since the station was launched in 2011.
The station for whatever reason has been in a slow roll since early 2016 which has recently been confirmed by high resolution images by Phillip Smith. In addition we reported this fact in early 2016 that the station was in a roll. There is just no way getting around the fact the station is in a roll from Mr.Smith images. At first we thought what look like a roll could be explained away by field rotation in being shot on a azimuth tracking platform but Mr.Smith is shooting off a modified equatorial system which rules out field rotation.
Yep the Chinese communist never have put out propaganda, clearly no historical evidence of that happening! Also no real history of Chinese communist taking a shot with a anti-satellite missile at their own satellites,nope none at all! Sarcasm of course!
Last haven't just been setting behind a computer watching what has been going on with Tiangong 1 but have actually been doing real world observation of Tiangong 1! Clearly could not possibly know anything about Tiangong 1,as printed in the the Chinese Daily "I'm not an expert" then again just a amature astronomer who has being observing for fifty-five years couldn't possible know anything on the subject!
-
(mod) Maybe less sarcasm would be helpful. No, no maybe about it.
-
Lar
Sarcasm was in order since there was a clear attempt to make it sound that I was was being a bigot because we made a factual statement that the Chinese communist government was trying to save face on the issue of Tiangong 1!
In addition for one who made the post to criticize another for sarcass you yourself did effectively the very same thing with all due respect!
Dalhousie You ask where we got the information that the unit that charges the battery off the solar panel had failed.We did take the time to go back and find one of the sources, there was others also that said there was some type of failure in the powers system of the station.
https://chinaspacereport.com/2016/09/30/tiangong-1-brought-down-by-dysfunctional-battery-charger/
If we are going to be made to give citation for everything we post because other may disagree then it should be require for all posting.
Lastly we personally hope we are dead wrong about what we believe but do not believe that is the case and are more than willing to eat our heaping helping of cold crow and that Cristiano is spot on in their claim that China has control of the station. Let's see what happens we will have a pretty good idea soon enough!
-
One more source of the power failure on Tiangong 1.
The space module also carries a number of silver-zinc batteries in its service module, which can provide emergency power for about 6 hours in case of failure of the solar arrays. However, without a functioning batter charger to recharge, these batteries eventually ran out. Without power supply, the space module lost all communications and telemetry transmissions with the earth, so the ground control could no longer to command the space module for a controlled re-entry.
http://sinodefence.com/tiangong-1/
-
(mod) Maybe less sarcasm would be helpful. No, no maybe about it.
Modified to clarify that I was speaking as a moderator.
Glad that you have valuable info to share, please keep sharing it, but stick to factual stuff, the conclusions that something is amiss with official reporting can be drawn by the reader.
-
Zero evidence there has been any kind of intentional orbital changes of Tiangong 1. In addition have check with and look for any radio traffic off Tiangong 1 that Radio Satellite Tracker community has observed which they had observed since launch in 2011 and observed into early 2016 but no such traffic after early 2016 has been reported or observed. Would like to hear a cogent critical analysis of why such radio traffic is no longer being observed since it was observed up until early 2016!
Here is a graphic representation of Tiangong 1 orbit off of Calsky.
Claims of Tiangong 1 being operational and claims of intentional attitude change of Tiangong 1 are not credible or factual!
-
Here is a graphic representation of Tiangong 1 orbit off of Calsky.
Claims of Tiangong 1 being operational and claims of intentional attitude change of Tiangong 1 are not credible or factual!
The graphs you posted say absolutely nothing about attitude change; you should use a much smaller time scale as I did in reply #835.
-
Cristiano
You are no correct change in attitude would show up in changes of Perigee and Apogee attitude and in period of the orbit! Which the graph we post does show this information.
In addition you like to use the ISS so here is the graphic representation of of the ISS from Calsky which clearly shows in intentional attitude changes in the graphic representation!
-
Cristiano
In addition can you show us where you took into account in your calculations any gravitational anomalies or atmospheric effect on the station? Since we are only allowed to post on factual information here can you show where you made such adjustments to your data In addition you are aware the TLE data from space track does have a small degree of margin of error, you are aware of this fact right?
-
I'll be very happy to reply, but before to do that, please Thomas could you tell me what "attitude changes" means to you?
-
Cristiano
In addition can you show us where you took into account in your calculations any gravitational anomalies or atmospheric effect on the station? Since we are only allowed to post on factual information here can you show where you made such adjustments to your data In addition you are aware the TLE data from space track does have a small degree of margin of error, you are aware of this fact right?
One error which appears in the TLEs when the orbit is nearly circular is in the eccentricity - as I have noted in the 38 years that I have been using the TLEs. Errors in the TLEs' eccentricity when it is very close to zero will affect the perigee and apogee altitudes, making one increase while the other decreases. Thus it might appear that a satellite is making small manoeuvres when nothing of the kind is happening.
-
Cristiano
Really! Any one who ever has track satellites understand the concept. Pretty simply was there an orbit boost or a decay of the orbit which can clearly been seen in any graphic representation of Perigee and Apogee altitude of the orbit and in orbital period.
Also can you show in your graphic representation, with confidence, doesn't just show data anomalies generated by gravitational anomalies, atmospheric effects, TLe margin of error and and margin of error in the process used to calculate the graphic representation you have present here. I hope you are not claiming you have zero margin of error in your representation!
It is you responsibility in your presentation to support the margin of error in the representation are not artifacts and you can openly show that that margin of error cannot account for what you are calling a boost to the orbit or altitude increase of Tiangong 1.
Here is a fact not even NASA can calculated perfectly the orbit of a satellites or space junk if they could they wouldn't have to tell ISS crews to retreat to the spacecraft attached to the ISS when they have close pass of other satellites or space junk. NASA understand there is a margin of error in their calculations. So that being said prove to the members here that your margin of error in your representation cannot account for your so call called orbital boost of Tiangong 1.
-
Pretty simply was there an orbit boost or a decay of the orbit which can clearly been seen in any graphic representation of Perigee and Apogee altitude of the orbit and in orbital period.
I'm talking about attitude change, while you are talking about reboosts and orbital decay which has nothing to do with the attitude.
In my post #835 I'm saying (or I'm supposing, please understand that I'm not a native speaker) that some kind of controlled attitude change could be the reason for the shift in the reentry date calculated with my simulation.
An attitude change is a change in the Tiangong-1 orientation wrt the velocity vector. An attitude change changes the drag force and if the drag force changes, also changes the reentry date.
The very small change in the drag force cannot absolutely be seen in the graph you posted.
-
Cristiano
This is your quote from what you posted
There are 3 strange discontinuities: 2018-01-21, 24 and 26. I argue that they are 3 micro reboosts done with the RCS.
I also argue that those reboosts and some kind of controlled attitude variation of the Chinese station are the reasons for the shift in the reentry date (first graph)
You did claim there was a reboost of the station with the station RCS which would change the altitude that station would orbit at even though it would be very small!
Once again you refuse to address any margin of error in your representations which could account for the extremely small changes you are claiming shows the Chinese have same control over the station.
Why not?
The biggest problem your representation have is the attempt to show these so call intentional small changes is simple the amount of TLe data cannot support the level of resolution in your representation you are attempting to use to make your case for the Chinese having same control over the station. It simple is showing errors in the data and anomalies in the orbit of the station like a sore thumb!
-
Cristiano
Are you so aware that there was sufficient solar driven event from the Sun taking place just before and around the time frame you gave "2018-01-21, 24 and 26" to account for the very very small changes you are claiming?
Once again let's use some provable facts! Just pointing out clear variables that could affect Tiangong 1 that you have not taken into account if your event are even real and has nothing to do with the firing of RCS on the station.
http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1&day=18&month=02&year=2018
http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1&day=22&month=01&year=2018
http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1&day=25&month=01&year=2018
-
Cristiano
This is your quote from what you posted
There are 3 strange discontinuities: 2018-01-21, 24 and 26. I argue that they are 3 micro reboosts done with the RCS.
I also argue that those reboosts and some kind of controlled attitude variation of the Chinese station are the reasons for the shift in the reentry date (first graph)
You did claim there was a reboost of the station with the station RCS which would change the altitude that station would orbit at even though it would be very small!
Uh? Do you know the difference between "altitude" and "attitude"?
-
Cristiano
You claimed there was "3 micro reboosts done with the RCS"
which means there was reboost to the orbit then you went on to claim"some kind of controlled attitude variation of the Chinese station are the reasons for the shift in the reentry date (first graph)"
You trying to get out of what you claim with the addition not showing correction for error in your calculation which would easily cover the very minor artifact you are claiming is proof of Chinese control over the Tiangong1!
Please show us the made correction for variables, or some may conclude that there is no proof that China has control over the station.
Edit/Lar: some minor softening
-
Claims of Tiangong 1 being operational and claims of intentional attitude change of Tiangong 1 are not credible or factual!
I think you're confusing attitude with altitude. Attitude is the spacecraft's orientation in space (roll, yaw and pitch). Altitude is the height above ground. Its clear that there has been no major boosts in altitude since 2016. Observations of the attitude of the spacecraft show that there is no tumbling and that there might be a slight roll. As to whether that means China has some control of the station, perhaps from control moment gryos, I don't know.
-
Steven Pietrobon
No not confused have been posting that the station has been in a slow roll since early 2016.
Let us give a citation to this fact in the article we did with Leonard David for Space.Com post June 10, 2106.
https://www.space.com/33140-china-tiangong-1-space-lab-falling-to-earth.html
Stacked still images gleaned from video taken from the ground suggest that China's Tiangong-1 space lab is in a slow roll, and that its solar panels are no longer oriented toward the sun, satellite tracker Thomas Dorman said.
In addition we posted the very recent high resolution gif images that pretty much show the station rolling by Phillip Smith.
There is zero evidence to support that there has been reboost of the station or an relevant attitude changes to the station beyond the roll that has been going on since 2016.
I am requesting Cristiano to review his information to see if perhaps, what he thinks are reboost and attitude adjustments/maneuvers are actually passive responses to space weather or other stimuli, or data anomalies. (softened by Lar)
-
https://gbtimes.com/new-estimates-for-tiangong-1-atmospheric-reentry-suggest-late-march-early-april
The European Space Agency's Space Debris Office has updated its prediction for the reentry of the doomed Chinese space lab Tiangong-1, with analysis by the Aerospace Corporation also suggesting orbital decay around early April.
The latest estimate suggests a window for reentry of ~24 March to ~19 April,
-
Question: Could the station have been commanded into a slow roll, if and when the flight controllers realized loss of electrical power, and therefore loss of control, was imminent--a last command to prevent the station from going into an inert tumble?
-
https://gbtimes.com/new-estimates-for-tiangong-1-atmospheric-reentry-suggest-late-march-early-april
The European Space Agency's Space Debris Office has updated its prediction for the reentry of the doomed Chinese space lab Tiangong-1, with analysis by the Aerospace Corporation also suggesting orbital decay around early April.
The latest estimate suggests a window for reentry of ~24 March to ~19 April,
I'm happy to know that my simulation is in a very good agreement with the ESA's simulation; they get an average reentry date equal to 6 April, while I get 8 April in my 9 days old simulation. It means that the system that I simulate is accurate enough and hence it can be useful to infer some information about the Tiangong-1 attitude (based on the ballistic coefficient).
-
Graphic representation of the orbital evolution history of Tiangong 1 from Launch to present in Period,Eccentricity, Semimajor Axis, Height of Apogee and Perigee above sphere. Interesting to note the clear changes that starts to take place on the graphic representation of Height of Apogee and Perigee above the sphere.
-
Thanks Thomas. Fascinating to see how the eccentricity oscillates. I calculate a period of 14.4 days for the oscillations. This is about half the Lunar period. Is the Moon causing these oscillations? It also looks like these variations are quite large, with the largest difference between apogee and perigee being 40 km, reducing to near 0 km at some points in time.
-
Steven Pietrobon
First we would like to state we are not a orbital mechanics expert! We were look into this yesterday and have not yield any answer what roll could other bodies have in influencing of a orbit of a satellite around the Earth such as the Moon, Sun besides the Earth. Seems common sense there must be some small effects. Had this thought it's an affect between the orbital resonance between the Earth, Moon, Satellite on the orbit of the satellite. Not sure how a orbital resonance would set up with the Sun and what affects there would be on satellites orbit.
Also been looking at decay rates and playing with calculations of orbital decay for Tiangong 1 for data for the past 45 days ,25 days and 10 days periods and projecting possible Solar weather activity on the decay. This is our guestamation on a reentry window right now. Somewhere between April 13th to the April 20 center somewhere around April 15th to April 17th. Once again this is just a guess with being this far out from the rentry probably as validate as any others guess.
Hoping to get some more observation of a couple of high passes of Tiangong 1 at the end of the coming week and will try do some more imaging of the station to see if there is any signs of the station starting to go into a tumble.
-
I always recall that Desmond King-Hele, one of the real "experts" concerning orbital decay issues, used to say that predicting orbital decays was more of an art than an exact science.
-
Phillip Clark
Seems you have the art down since in that your very long range prediction is turning out to be in at least the window you predicted some time back.
-
Phillip Clark
Seems you have the art down since in that your very long range prediction is turning out to be in at least the window you predicted some time back.
Thank you. It's nothing exotic, just printing off the period vs epoch and extrapolating that with French curves! It worked way back for predicting the Salyut 7 decay more than two years in advance. I am sure that some will say the method isn't accurate but for my purposes it works OK.
-
Thanks Thomas. Fascinating to see how the eccentricity oscillates. I calculate a period of 14.4 days for the oscillations. This is about half the Lunar period. Is the Moon causing these oscillations? It also looks like these variations are quite large, with the largest difference between apogee and perigee being 40 km, reducing to near 0 km at some points in time.
I wonder (and looking at the curve, I suspect this is the case) if the period is actually 28.8 days. If the apogee decreases and the perigee increases until the orbit is circular, and continues, the former apogee would become the perigee and the former perigee would become the apogee. But the longitude and latitude of the apogee and perigee would swap at this point. I think there would be a sudden 180o shift in the argument of the perigee in the TLE.
-
If the apogee decreases and the perigee increases until the orbit is circular, and continues, the former apogee would become the perigee and the former perigee would become the apogee.
According to the TLEs, it never happens:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1_RV_ECC.png)
-
Well, at six and a half years since launch and few weeks till reentry, do we know what Earth imaging devices TG-1 has onboard?
I count three:
(1) Hi-res visible band camera;
(2) Infrared camera with 10 meters resolution at SWIR;
(3) Hyperspectrometer.
The much-hyped hyperspectrometer seems to be the smallest of the three with the mass of only 80 kg. Two other devices use 600-mm aperture telescopes with SiC mirrors.
-
This evening's pass of Tiangong 1 2018-3-2 @ 1:28UT wide field test shot with used Canon Powershot SX130. Tiangong 1 visually steady in brightness until passing into earth shadow. No sign of tumble!
-
Here’s an updated and improved Monte Carlo simulation for the reentry date:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1_2018-03-02_MC.png)
[http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1_2018-03-02_MC.png (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1_2018-03-02_MC.png)]
The simulation includes the Newtonian and relativistic accelerations of all the planets, Sun and Moon. The Earth is the WGS 84 ellipsoid and for its gravity field I use a model which includes the zonal coefficients up to degree 20. For the air density I use the NRLMSISE-00 model along with a data file for the solar and geomagnetic indices.
With the SGP4 propagator I calculate the initial state of the Tiangong-1 for the TLE epoch, then I propagate it with a specially crafted propagator (based on a DOPRI853 integrator).
Then, for 199 times I add a normally distributed random offset to the initial radius vector (to take into account the TLE uncertainty) and I propagate the new random state.
Since I used 50 TLEs, I obtained 50 reentry dates from the original TLEs (the blue dots) and 9950 reentry dates from the modified initial states (the gray dots).
The confidence interval is just based on the variance of the reentry dates.
The simulation took about 9.45 hours of CPU time.
The graph doesn’t show any particular trend and a reentry on March seems very unlikely.
-
https://www.yahoo.com/news/tiangong-1-china-apos-control-123925937.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/chinese-space-station-full-toxic-chemicals-crash-europe-month-111248079.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-tiangong-1-space-station-could-come-crashing-153423387.html
-
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/mar/06/chinas-tiangong-1-space-station-will-crash-to-earth-within-weeks
-
https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/971071970019368960
Latest #Tiangong1 reentry forecast provided by the #SpaceDebris Office at ESA’s #ESOC mission control centre, Darmstadt, Germany: Current estimated window is ~29 Mar to ~9 Apr; this is highly variable.
-
https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/08/china-tiangong-1-space-station-uncontrolled-reentry/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2018/03/07/china-space-lab/?utm_term=.b283676aade0
https://boston.cbslocal.com/2018/03/07/space-station-crash-earth-date-time-location/
-
Latest Aerospace prediction:
http://www.aerospace.org/cords/reentry-predictions/tiangong-1-reentry/ (http://www.aerospace.org/cords/reentry-predictions/tiangong-1-reentry/)
"Tiangong-1 is predicted to reenter in around April 3rd, 2018 ± 1 week*.
This prediction was performed by The Aerospace Corporation on 2018 March 7.
*Note: This prediction assumes an uncontrolled reentry (no thrusting)."
-
Chinese space station is crashing to Earth - and China won’t say what’s on board
https://www.yahoo.com/news/chinese-space-station-crashing-earth-china-wont-say-whats-board-130633093.html
-
This evening's pass of Tiangong 1 2018-3-12 @ 1:11:22 UT on a 85° max pass. We were still about 9 minutes before the end of nautical twilight when we shot the image.Visually station remains steady in brightness, no signs of tumbling observed. The bright stars top left of center Castor and Pollux. Bright star right of center Procyon.Canon PowerShot SX130 IS F/5.0,15 second exposure,ISO 1600, 45mm, stationary tripod.
-
This evening's pass video of Tiangong 1 in Nautical twilight about 22 minutes before the start of Astronomical twilight. This was to say the least a tough capture as Tiangong 1 was passing just above the Sword of Orion! We had a hard time locating the Sword of Orion in the bright sky. We sharpened,smoothed the video frames , then took some of the noise out of the video using Image J. Then we adjusted the brightness and the contrast in video editing software. Tiangong 1 was at a distance of 318 Km. Used the AVS astro video camera with the zoom lens set to 75mm.
https://youtu.be/YVR0VA09Inc
-
Here: https://sattrackcam.blogspot.it/2018/03/ I read: "there is still quite an uncertainty and day-to-day shift in the estimated moment of reentry, due to variations in the atmosphere and the attitude of the space station."; does anyone have any update on the attitude of the station?
-
Here: https://sattrackcam.blogspot.it/2018/03/ I read: "there is still quite an uncertainty and day-to-day shift in the estimated moment of reentry, due to variations in the atmosphere and the attitude of the space station."; does anyone have any update on the attitude of the station?
Andrew Jones
@AJ_FI
Tiangong-1 now orbiting with a perigee of 224 km & apogee of 246 km, down from 235 x 257 km on March 8. Fiery fate within weeks (March 30 - April 6, according to ESA)
https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/974677434036555776 (https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/974677434036555776)
-
Thank you, but I asked for attitude update (the Tiangong-1 axes orientation), not altitude.
-
The following graph shows the mean radius vector for 1 orbit and its decay rate:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-17_Rder.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-17_Rder.png)]
To attain the best possible accuracy, the decay rate is calculated as the first derivative of the mean radius vector for 1 orbit centered at the TLE epoch.
It is clearly visible an anomalous burst from the TLE 18070.1268 (March 11) to 18072.1107 (March 13), 6 consecutive TLEs; attitude variation?
-
After the big variation in the decay rate on March 12, the reentry is predicted at a slightly earlier date:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-18_MC.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-18_MC.png)]
The simulation is the same as in the reply #883, but I improved the gravity model (now I use the GRACE gravity model version 3 Combined up to degree and order 25).
-
Today's #Tiangong1 orbit status update from China's human spaceflight office was the first that did not state it had a 'stabilised attitude'.
https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/975776571775647744
-
I'm guessing between 1 Apr - 4 Apr.
-
My latest #reentry estimate for #Tiangong1: 31 March +- 3 days The geomagnetic storm of yesterday does seem to have given it a bump. @SSC_NL
https://twitter.com/Marco_Langbroek/status/976061596656111617
-
https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/976809497015603202
Updated #Tiangong1 forecast from ESA's Space Debris Office: The current estimated window is ~30 March to ~2 April; this is highly variable http://blogs.esa.int/rocketscience/2018/01/12/tiangong-1-reentry-updates/ …
-
Amazing TG-1 radar images from Germany's land-based TIRA radar: https://twitter.com/Fraunhofer_FHR/status/976436268228890624 (https://twitter.com/Fraunhofer_FHR/status/976436268228890624)
Weltweit einzigartige Radarabbildungen von Tiangong-1!
Forscher des Fraunhofer FHR begleiten Wiedereintritt der chinesischen Raumstation Tiangong-1
https://t.co/MKCeACtJzS (https://t.co/MKCeACtJzS)
-
My "friend" is looking at 31 Mar- 1 Apr with medium confidence on the 1st. My other "friend" agrees so plan on an April Fool's party courtesy of the Chinese. Of course, any solar flare can cause that estimate to shift.
-
The reentry interval is now very narrow, only +/-1.3 days:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-24_MC.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-24_MC.png)]
An interesting result could be this:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-24_MC_LOC.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-24_MC_LOC.png)]
which shows the possible reentry orbital plane.
When compared to the same graph for March 18 simulation, they almost exactly overlap:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-24_MC_LOCconf.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-24_MC_LOCconf.png)]
but the updated graph shows much less spread.
The same locations (from today’s simulation) in two orthographic projections:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-24_MC_LOCortho1.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-24_MC_LOCortho1.png)]
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-24_MC_LOCortho2.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-24_MC_LOCortho2.png)]
EDIT: Google Earth kmz file (179 kB); don’t use the WEB version, because it’s too slow:
http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-24_MC_GE.kmz
If you don’t see the points, just zoom a bit.
-
This is quite a difference:
China's human spaceflight agency had Tiangong-1 in 208.1 x 224.3 km x 42.65° orbit for March 25. US Space Surveillance Network reported 203 x 222 km x 42.75 degrees.
https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/978158201026895872
-
This is quite a difference:
China's human spaceflight agency had Tiangong-1 in 208.1 x 224.3 km x 42.65° orbit for March 25. US Space Surveillance Network reported 203 x 222 km x 42.75 degrees.
https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/978158201026895872
They are using different Earth models for calculating altitudes, etc.
-
This is quite a difference:
China's human spaceflight agency had Tiangong-1 in 208.1 x 224.3 km x 42.65° orbit for March 25. US Space Surveillance Network reported 203 x 222 km x 42.75 degrees.
https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/978158201026895872
If I do the calculation with the TLE 18084.87551043 (2018-03-25 21:00:44 UTC), I get 208.246 x 224.963 above a sphere with R= 6371 km (the mean Earth radius) and 202.121 x 221.361 above the WGS 84 ellipsoid.
42.65 is the mean inclination wrt the mean equator J2000, while 42.75 is the mean inclination in the TEME reference frame.
-
If I do the calculation with the TLE 18084.87551043 (2018-03-25 21:00:44 UTC), I get 208.246 x 224.963 above a sphere with R= 6371 km (the mean Earth radius) and 202.121 x 221.361 above the WGS 84 ellipsoid.
NASA normally uses the equatorial radius of 6,378,165 m. That was also the reference used by the R.A.E.
-
application
https://www.satellite-calculations.com/TLETracker/SatTracker.htm
tiangong-1 TLE 18084.87551043
Altitude at Perigee km
200.87848383724395
Altitude at Apogee km
220.86293815869976
Inclination deg
42.7436
-
Fraunhofer FHR is now now providing an animation of Tiangong-1 movement based on TIRA radar images.
https://www.fhr.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/fhr/de/images/D_Pressemedien/2018/Fraunhofer_FHR_Tiangong1_20180111_854x480.mp4
-
application
https://www.satellite-calculations.com/TLETracker/SatTracker.htm
[...]
I read: "NOTE: This tracker uses a simplified calculation of satellite position which is NOT as accurate as trackers using SDP/SGP models !!". There are dozens of sites and programs for those calculations, why do you use that site?
Also, I read "Inclination ... from TLE", "Right Ascension of Ascending node ... from TLE", ... which means that the values are read directly from TLE, while TLEs must be used only with the intended propagator (SGP4/SDP4).
-
Fraunhofer FHR is now now providing an animation of Tiangong-1 movement based on TIRA radar images.
https://www.fhr.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/fhr/de/images/D_Pressemedien/2018/Fraunhofer_FHR_Tiangong1_20180111_854x480.mp4 (https://www.fhr.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/fhr/de/images/D_Pressemedien/2018/Fraunhofer_FHR_Tiangong1_20180111_854x480.mp4)
I have swiftly received an answer from Dr Leushacke upon the question I emailed him on how to interpret this rotation:
As part of our work on Tiangong-1 re-entry we also estimate the actual attitude motion parameters for ESA. At the time the radar movie was produced, the rotation (about a vertical body axis) has been around 1.5 deg/s. Since then it has slightly increased to about 1.9 deg/s.
That is, TG-1 would be completing a rotation every 4 minutes at the time the movie was made (now every ~3m10s), so the movie is sped up by a factor of ~24.
-
I have swiftly received an answer from Dr Leushacke upon the question I emailed him on how to interpret this rotation:
As part of our work on Tiangong-1 re-entry we also estimate the actual attitude motion parameters for ESA. At the time the radar movie was produced, the rotation (about a vertical body axis) has been around 1.5 deg/s. Since then it has slightly increased to about 1.9 deg/s.
Has he also given an explanation for that acceleration? Or could anyone give an explanation?
-
He didn't but in principle it can well be a direct consequence of higher drag.
-
The BBC has run this story - it doesn't contain anything new though.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-43551144
I cannot understand why so many online stories about the Tiangong decay use a picture of Shenzhou instead of Tiangong. Presumably the authors don't know anything about the Chinese space programme and therefore do not know the difference between Shenzhou and Tiangong.
-
He didn't but in principle it can well be a direct consequence of higher drag.
Rotation measured a few hours ago to be up to 2.2º/s (a revolution every ~2m45s). New video https://twitter.com/Fraunhofer_FHRe/status/978616595609157635
-
My prediction for Tiangong1
02.04.18 11:05
-
There are dozens of sites and programs for those calculations, why do you use that site?
...
I use it a long time ago
Recommend which website would be more appropriate
-
Rotation measured a few hours ago to be up to 2.2º/s (a revolution every ~2m45s). New video https://twitter.com/Fraunhofer_FHRe/status/978616595609157635
It seems that the rotation is in the opposite direction; just an optical illusion?
-
[...]
Recommend which website would be more appropriate
I can't recommend any particular site, but almost all the sites use the proper propagator to calculate the orbital elements.
-
Rotation measured a few hours ago to be up to 2.2º/s (a revolution every ~2m45s). New video https://twitter.com/Fraunhofer_FHRe/status/978616595609157635
It seems that the rotation is in the opposite direction; just an optical illusion?
I see the same counterclockwise rotation, but with this cylindrically-symmetric model it's impossible to tell if you're looking at it from above or below... not probable for it to have reversed rotation direction though, IMO.
-
At least there is some reassurance TianGong-1 isn't a threat when I leaned its size is nothing compared to Skylab; about barely a tenth.
-
Aerospace.org Reentry Dashboard:
(http://www.aerospace.org/CORDSuploads/TiangongStoryboard.png)
-
At least there is some reassurance TianGong-1 isn't a threat when I leaned its size is nothing compared to Skylab; about barely a tenth.
In fact, something that doesn't get reported often is that "common" uncontrolled reentries, such as the recent Zenit S2 (8 t), are similar in characteristics to this reentry and nobody really cares much. Of course, talking about a "falling, uncontrolled space station" sounds much more ominous than a "reentering rocket second stage" for general media, the spacecraft has had much more public visibility, and the potential for hydrazine-ridden surviving tanks or other unusual heavy equipment makes it (somewhat) more exciting too.
-
This new simulation doesn’t show any particular variation in the reentry date (which is now 5 hours earlier than the previous simulation), but its uncertainty is now further reduced from 32.2 hours to 16.3 hours:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-28_MC.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-28_MC.png)]
-
At least there is some reassurance TianGong-1 isn't a threat when I leaned its size is nothing compared to Skylab; about barely a tenth.
In fact, something that doesn't get reported often is that "common" uncontrolled reentries, such as the recent Zenit S2 (8 t), are similar in characteristics to this reentry and nobody really cares much. Of course, talking about a "falling, uncontrolled space station" sounds much more ominous than a "reentering rocket second stage" for general media, the spacecraft has had much more public visibility, and the potential for hydrazine-ridden surviving tanks or other unusual heavy equipment makes it (somewhat) more exciting too.
A point I've been making on every radio appearance I've done on this. Small chance of something big enough to do damage surviving. Still a high likelihood of entry over water. But hydrazine contamination is the biggest threat if a piece does make it to the ground.
-
Concur. Having said that. Hydrazine contamination does not seem that much of a big deal in the US when an F-16 crashes somewhere from time to time, while it actually very much should (been trained as first responder to such scene in a prior life).
Intact hydrazine tank in an F-16 crash is likely.
TianGong, not so much.
-
Spotted in space
In the next few days, an unoccupied Chinese space station, Tiangong-1, is expected to reenter the atmosphere following the end of its operational life. Most of the craft should burn up.
ESA is hosting a campaign to follow the reentry, conducted by the Inter Agency Space Debris Coordination Committee (IADC).
The 13 space agencies/organisations of IADC are using this event to conduct their annual reentry test campaign, during which participants will pool their predictions of the time window, as well as their respective tracking datasets obtained from radar and other sources. The aim is to cross-verify, cross-analyse and improve the prediction accuracy for all members.
These radar images (the image above is a composite of two separate images) were acquired last week by the Tracking and Imaging Radar system – one of the world’s most capable – operated by Germany’s Fraunhofer FHR research institute at Wachtberg, near Bonn, when the craft was at an altitude of about 270 km.
Data and images from the radar are being pooled as part of the IADC campaign.
The spacecraft is 12 m long with a diameter of 3.3 m and had a launch mass of 8506 kg. It has been unoccupied since 2013 and there has been no contact with it since 2016.
The craft is now at about 200 km altitude, down from 300 km in January, in an orbit that will most likely decay sometime between the morning of 31 March and the early morning of 2 April.
Owing to wide variations in atmospheric dynamics and the break-up process, among other factors, the date, time and geographic footprint of the reentry can only be forecast with large uncertainties.
-
https://youtu.be/idwMJZmOpQM
-
Most of the craft should burn up.
The following graph shows the possible aerodynamic load during the reentry (co-rotating atmosphere assumed):
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-29_maxq.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-29_maxq.png)]
Supposing that the calculations are reasonably accurate (as long as the stations will remain intact), the max-q seems very low when compared to other missions (35 kPa for Saturn V and 28 kPa for the Space Shuttle).
Does anyone know the break-up dynamic pressure for other reentered satellites?
-
I had not realised that the Chinese had specified the Southern Ocean as the planned decay area if everything had gone to plan.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43557446
-
Last TLE and DMM, B*.
Decrease of the Ap index results in a B * drop and a decrease in the growth of Delta Mean motion
The term of decay will be shifted to later
-
Among lot of reentry predictions, it could be of some interest to see what happens just before the reentry. The following graph shows how I calculate the last orbit:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-30_last.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-30_last.png)]
That’s not a reentry prediction, it’s just to show a reentry trajectory obtained from one TLE (the shape of the plot doesn’t change if I take another TLE, but change the dates on the x axis).
The blue plot is the Tiangong-1 right ascension (RA). If we take 70 km altitude as the reentry interface (to be precise: radius vector = 6371 + 70 km), we see that RA = -24.4 deg (I read it from the data :) ); now just go backward on the x axis until RA = -24.4 deg again: 1.4 hours before reentry.
We see that the last orbit starts very near the last perigee (approximately 132 km of altitude).
-
Interesting graph.
I also am considering the last minutes of Tiangong1.
In my liking, the onset of extinction begins at 120 to 100 km after reaching the air density of approx. 3.60E-8 kg/m3. The critical is the density of the atmosphere, not the height.
From that moment the airodynamic drag is so great that it follows accelerating fall
I got a simulation of 3310 sec, and still seems to me it's fast.
(http://www.imagehosting.cz/images/tiangongjz.png)
The main spacecraft body experiences disintegration at an altitude of 90 to 60 Kilometers - simulation 46 seconds
(http://www.imagehosting.cz/images/snmkatbfb.png)
Variation 1465 sec , cca A =19,5 m2
(http://www.imagehosting.cz/images/snmkatiang.png)
This is simply a simulation in Excel and my lay opinion
-
The main spacecraft body experiences disintegration at an altitude of 90 to 60 Kilometers
How did you calculate that burn up altitude?
-
The reentry date shifted 13 hours later:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-30_MC.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-03-30_MC.png)]
The data file I use to update the NRLMSISE-00 atmospheric model (ftp://ftp.agi.com/pub/DynamicEarthData/SpaceWeather-All-v1.2.txt 2.8 MB) shows flat indices (no solar activity variation).
Given the particular attitude of the station (as shown in the Fraunhofer videos), it could be possible that the solar arrays generate some lift?
-
...The main spacecraft body experiences disintegration at an altitude of 90 to 60 Kilometers ...
How did you calculate that burn up altitude?
90-60 km is not from the calculation.
Based on the information on the Internet to the decay of satellites.
For example
https://sattrackcam.blogspot.sk/2017/05/analysis-re-entry-of-cz-4b-rb-2014-049c.html
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Operations/Space_Debris
http://spaceflight101.com/re-entry/
Forecast air density in 160 km,
wrong graph:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/assets/14392.0/1484475.jpg
and from TLE - B * and 1st Derivative of the Mean Motion
the stabilization of the rotation of the station (2.2°/sec) in higer density atmosphere the re-entry date could prolong on 2.4.2018 = my prediction
-
I propagated the current TLE (18090.33239452) with the SGP4 propagator until the altitude above the WGS 84 ellipsoid drops to about 160 km. That happens when the TLE age is about 1.8 days, which is too much for this low altitude, but we are only interested in the approximate position and altitude, hence the TLE age it’s not a problem.
Here’s the graph:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/AtmoData-2018-03-31.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/AtmoData-2018-03-31.png)]
Your atmosphere is about 170 times thicker than mine. No model is perfect, but the NRLMSISE-00 model cannot be that wrong.
How do you calculate the density?
-
model for atmospheric density calculation ρ (rho):
T = 900 + 2.5 (F10.7– 70) + 1.5 Ap [Kelvin]
m = 27– 0.012 (h– 200)
H = T / m [km]
ρ = 6x10-10 * exp(-(h-175)/H) [kg/m3]
Air density is calculated from F10.7 (SFU) and geomagnetic index Ap.
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/433600.pdf
Now I see that I made a mistake.
180 <h (km) <500
The table should be 180 km, not 160 km.
thank you for warning
-
http://blogs.esa.int/rocketscience/2018/03/26/tiangong-1-reentry-updates/
Tiangong-1 reentry updates
Latest reentry forecast provided by ESA’s Space Debris Office, ESOC, Darmstadt, Germany.
Update 11:00 CET, 31 March 2018
The space debris team at ESA have adapted their reentry forecast over the last 24 hr to take into consideration the conditions of low solar activity. New data received overnight gave further confirmation that the forecast window is moving to later on 1 April.
The team now are forecasting a window centred around 23:25 UTC on 1 April (01:25 CEST 2 April), and running from the afternoon of 1 April to the early morning on 2 April. This remains highly variable.
-
This morning's pass of Tiangong 1 at around 11:10 UT. We were fighting high clouds and wind but was able to capture Tiangong 1 as it passed just above Polars. The clock on the video is is fast by 7.25 seconds. For some reason the clock jumped after we set it this morning. Tiangong 1 is running around for 14 seconds early based on a Tle .4 days old. This is most likely our last chance to observe Tiangong 1 we have a low pass tomorrow morning but right now have a forecast of clouds and rain.
Thomas
https://vimeo.com/262638912
-
Last TLE 18090.51537539
B*=0,00015733
1st Derivative of the Mean Motion/2=0.01668436
If there is no solar storm, then the station will survive to 2.4.
-
TLE 18090.63734353
Correction
B*=0,00018234
1st Derivative of the Mean Motion/2=0.01995214
2.april is still likely
-
I gotta say I’m a little disappointed that there’s no landing bingo...
-
TLE 18091,00304286
B*=0,00019001
1st Derivative of the Mean Motion/2=0,02715064
-
Aerospace.org :
"Tiangong-1 is currently predicted to reenter the Earth’s atmosphere around April 2nd, 2018 02:00 UTC ± 7 hours.
This prediction was performed by The Aerospace Corporation on 2018 March 31."
(http://www.aerospace.org/CORDSuploads/TiangongStoryboard.png)
-
I gotta say I’m a little disappointed that there’s no landing bingo...
That is because this is a serious discussion thread for mature contributions.
-
Even if the average reentry date is well within all the calculated confidence intervals, the drag coefficient (in my simulation) needs to be continuously decreased in order to fit the new TLEs. In my understanding, there are only two possible reasons: the intrinsic TLE uncertainty, or there should be some lift (not modeled in my simulation) mainly generated by the solar arrays.
Anyway, here’s the updated reentry date:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-04-01_MC.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-04-01_MC.png)]
and the corresponding reentry ground track:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-04-01_MC_LOC.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-04-01_MC_LOC.png)]
-
TLE 18091,42889259
B*=0,0001953
1st Derivative of the Mean Motion/2=0,04822198
Ap index=5
SFU10.7=69
the station will fly long, at the upper limit of the estimates
2. april 06:00 UTC
-
https://twitter.com/Fraunhofer_FHRe/status/980395795743690752
Maybe the last images of #Tiangong1? Today morning (CEST) we tracked it at an altitude of 161 km and made new world exclusive #radarimages. It is still intact, no damage. Next measurement in ~21h, most probably it is down then.
-
Reminder to all. Please format your posts correctly. Ones which break the page width will be removed.
-
Article on this, including some historical references and what they'll do with the ISS etc:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2018/04/tiangong-1-uncontrolled-re-entry-tracking/
-
Latest update from Aerospace.org (http://www.aerospace.org/CORDSuploads/TiangongStoryboard.png) shows the station going down in the South Pacific in around 4,5 hours. The now also include a predicted altitude graph.
-
The most recent TiP message on the Space-Track site was issued at 18:18 UT and it is predicing orbital decay April 2 at 00:48 UT +/-2 hours.
New prediction is expected two hours after this one was issued.
-
Space-Track prediction issued 23:03 UT, April 1. Decay predicted for 00:49 UT April 2 with +/-2 hours - a period which we are now in.
-
TLE 18091,67159643
B*=0,00014209
1st Derivative of the Mean Motion/2=0,06702538
Ap index=5
SFU10.7=69
Slightly sunny weather and drop B* (radiation pressure coefficient) explains the extinction shift
-
#JFSCC predicting #Tiangong1 reentry over the Atlantic Ocean (between South America & Africa at ~1749 PST today.
https://twitter.com/18SPCS/status/980588127877136384
-
#JFSCC predicting #Tiangong1 reentry over the Atlantic Ocean (between South America & Africa at ~1749 PST today.
https://twitter.com/18SPCS/status/980588127877136384
Allowing for time zones and summer time adjustments, I think that's the same as the Space-Track figure.
-
1749 PST == 0049Z GMT April 2nd, should be already in last orbit. Hopefully GOES-16 will see it in the IR channels.
-
Latest update from Aerospace.org (http://www.aerospace.org/CORDSuploads/TiangongStoryboard.png (http://www.aerospace.org/CORDSuploads/TiangongStoryboard.png)) shows the station going down in the South Pacific in around 4,5 hours. The now also include a predicted altitude graph.
Right now the Aerospace Corp page says Tiangong-1 is 0.45251758 +/- 1.7 hrs from reentry and that its altitude is 121.19 km but the perigee is 137.43 km.
It shows it passing a ground station identified as Altair in the Pacific.
That brings up a question: What is the most recent data they have with which to determine the orbit?
Will they get data from "Altair"?
How much of this is current and how much is extrapolation?
-
#JFSCC predicting #Tiangong1 reentry over the Atlantic Ocean (between South America & Africa at ~1749 PST today.
https://twitter.com/18SPCS/status/980588127877136384 (https://twitter.com/18SPCS/status/980588127877136384)
I think that should be PDT, not PST.
-
Latest update from Aerospace.org (http://www.aerospace.org/CORDSuploads/TiangongStoryboard.png (http://www.aerospace.org/CORDSuploads/TiangongStoryboard.png)) shows the station going down in the South Pacific in around 4,5 hours. The now also include a predicted altitude graph.
Right now the Aerospace Corp page says Tiangong-1 is 0.45251758 +/- 1.7 hrs from reentry and that its altitude is 121.19 km but the perigee is 137.43 km.
It shows it passing a ground station identified as Altair in the Pacific.
That brings up a question: What is the most recent data they have with which to determine the orbit?
Will they get data from "Altair"?
How much of this is current and how much is extrapolation?
ALTAIR (ARPA Long-Range Tracking and Instrumentation Radar) is on Roi-Namur in Kwajalein Atoll. If that helps anyone.
-
ISS happens to be positioned above TianGong-1 at present with very similar trajectory & ground track. I imagine at least one crew member is keeping watch.
sorry, I didn't notice heavens-above switched home page tracking graphic from ISS to TianGong-1 :-[
-
Latest update from Aerospace.org (http://www.aerospace.org/CORDSuploads/TiangongStoryboard.png (http://www.aerospace.org/CORDSuploads/TiangongStoryboard.png)) shows the station going down in the South Pacific in around 4,5 hours. The now also include a predicted altitude graph.
Right now the Aerospace Corp page says Tiangong-1 is 0.45251758 +/- 1.7 hrs from reentry and that its altitude is 121.19 km but the perigee is 137.43 km.
It shows it passing a ground station identified as Altair in the Pacific.
That brings up a question: What is the most recent data they have with which to determine the orbit?
Will they get data from "Altair"?
How much of this is current and how much is extrapolation?
ALTAIR (ARPA Long-Range Tracking and Instrumentation Radar) is on Roi-Namur in Kwajalein Atoll. If that helps anyone.
Thanks, but not really.
Does that data become public and when?
The Aerospace page not shows Tiangong-1 passing it's predicted reentry point at an altitude of 121 km.
Surely this is an extrapolation from now stale data.
When will they/we have an observation based update?
-
Might this be the end?
http://www.satview.org/?sat_id=37820U
-
Might this be the end?
http://www.satview.org/?sat_id=37820U
Clearly they don't know if it has actually decayed since thet are giving such a large error bound on the decay "time".
-
Might this be the end?
http://www.satview.org/?sat_id=37820U
I was wondering about that too, but satview also reported altitudes above 140 km all the time, so it was clearly extrapolating at least part of the trajectory. It was also showing a reentry countdown timer until it started showing that popup.
Edit: Better wording.
-
Latest update from Aerospace.org (http://www.aerospace.org/CORDSuploads/TiangongStoryboard.png (http://www.aerospace.org/CORDSuploads/TiangongStoryboard.png)) shows the station going down in the South Pacific in around 4,5 hours. The now also include a predicted altitude graph.
Right now the Aerospace Corp page says Tiangong-1 is 0.45251758 +/- 1.7 hrs from reentry and that its altitude is 121.19 km but the perigee is 137.43 km.
It shows it passing a ground station identified as Altair in the Pacific.
That brings up a question: What is the most recent data they have with which to determine the orbit?
Will they get data from "Altair"?
How much of this is current and how much is extrapolation?
ALTAIR (ARPA Long-Range Tracking and Instrumentation Radar) is on Roi-Namur in Kwajalein Atoll. If that helps anyone.
Thanks, but not really.
Does that data become public and when?
The Aerospace page not shows Tiangong-1 passing it's predicted reentry point at an altitude of 121 km.
Surely this is an extrapolation from now stale data.
When will they/we have an observation based update?
The next ground track station is Ascension Island. If the model is correct, they will have a great view of the reentry.
-
Cloudy over major cities reporting back into my Twitter feed in South America! So that's not helped.
-
satview.org is back up after seemingly crashing, it still says Tiangong re-entered.
-
satview.org is back up after seemingly crashing, it still says Tiangong re-entered.
They are simply repeating the last prediction from the Space-Track web site (see my posting above).
-
satview.org is back up after seemingly crashing, it still says Tiangong re-entered.
That reentry message may simply be how the web page is programmed to respond at the predicted reentry time. If reentry were confirmed, that site seems unlikely to be the first to break the news.
-
http://www.cmse.gov.cn/art/2018/4/2/art_810_32427.html
Google translate:
According to the news from China’s manned space engineering office, monitoring and analysis conducted by the Beijing Aerospace Flight Control Center and relevant agencies, at around 8:15 on April 2, 2018, Tiangong-1 has re-entered the atmosphere, and the re-entrance zone is located in the central area of the South Pacific. Most devices are ablated and destroyed during re-entry.
-
Space-Track is now listing Tiangong 1 as a decayed object but no more info at present.
-
https://twitter.com/JSavageTweets/status/980612444857958400
Another report in of entry at 00:15UTC, supposedly from China's news agency.
Chinese state news agency Xinhua: Tiangong-1 re-entered the earth's atmosphere at 00:15gmt over the South Pacific and mostly burnt up on re-entry
-
Tian gone.
Sorry, but I know people like my puns.
-
https://twitter.com/18SPCS/status/980614448745406465
-
I mean if the Air Force can't get PST and PDT straight why should I trust the rest of it?
-
Well that was interesting. Well done to all for the updates.
RIP Tiangong-1.
-
The place of extinction of Tiangong-1
near Samoa
-
for comparison deorbit of Mir
(http://www.esa.int/var/esa/storage/images/esa_multimedia/images/2001/03/mir_re-entry_path/9136820-5-eng-GB/Mir_re-entry_path_node_full_image_2.gif)
-
Last moments Tiangong-1
-
Your trajectory seems unrealistically smooth.
Here’s a bit more realistic trajectories obtained from the last 5 TLEs:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-04-02_last.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-04-02_last.png)]
and a detailed view:
(http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-04-02_lastDetta.png)
[original size (http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/TIA1-2018-04-02_lastDetta.png)]
I skipped both the TLE 18091.67159150 and 18091.67159262 because the last TLE (18091.67159643) seems their corrected version.
-
Your trajectory seems unrealistically smooth.
i use a very simple model in excel,
I like to see the last minutes and the transition from 100 to 50 km, possibly up to 0,
I'm happy for every post
-
My and Your model.
It is correct?
It's an estimate of how long the station breaks down.
-
The excel file with all the data:
http://cristianopi.altervista.org/Tiangong/UltimaOrbita.xlsx
-
simulation last moments Tiangong-1 Cristiano and Lamid
-
Re-Entry, referencing the spacecraft crossing 80 Kilometers in altitude, occurred over the South Pacific Ocean at approximately 13.6°S 195.7°E, around 780 Kilometers due East of American Samoa.
http://spaceflight101.com/abandoned-chinese-space-laboratory-re-enters-harmlessly-over-pacific-ocean/
-
I tried Gmat
Tiangong-1 last orbits and decay in 80 km altitude
last minutes and disintegration 90-60 km
-
It seems that Gmat gives a much longer time for 90-60 km drop.
Please, could you upload the Gmat file? I would try it out.
-
txt file from Gmat
-
Julian Danzer Orbiter simulation
https://youtu.be/ivTuotQad8g
video time 7:47, 7:55
altitude 90.50 km simulation time 36228
altitude 62.92 km simulation time 36502
r 6434 km km simulation time 36515 sec
90,50-60 km 287 sec
-
txt file from Gmat
I meant the file to set up the simulation, not the result file.
-
last moments according to Gmat
from 00:00-00:22, 120 km to 10 km