Author Topic: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)  (Read 631372 times)

Offline Chris Bergin

Second thread, following on from the original - which managed to get to 3000+ posts and 370,000 views (yikes). http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=19228.0

Remember, this is for SpaceX related chat, and that only. It allows the threads with news to remain specific to that particular news.

So, keep it on SpaceX and use it for discussion. For new news, use the SpaceX section, which contains threads for the next F9 launch and new news from SpaceX etc.

Do not be tempted to veer this off into general discussions about SD HLVs etc. We have plenty of threads on other subjects elsewhere on the forum.

Thanking you ;)
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Offline R.Simko

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #1 on: 09/21/2010 03:30 pm »
Dragon will be berthing with ISS on either test flight 3 or test flight 2/3.  When it does berth with one of these flights, will it be allowed to bring cargo with it, to count towards it CRS contract?

Offline Antares

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #2 on: 09/21/2010 03:42 pm »
Seems like I heard at one conference that they were planning to carry cargo on that flight.  When the CRS contract was announced, the 12 missions seemed to be separate from whichever Demo makes it to Station.  It's unclear how NASA would pay for that delivery unless they use the per kilo pricing in the CRS RFP.
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Offline ugordan

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #3 on: 09/21/2010 05:02 pm »
Yes, the idea of carrying some actual cargo (instead of some "cargo simulator") on COTS 3 has been floated around for quite some time. It makes sense to actually not waste that opportunity, though it's a good question whether or not SpaceX would want to get paid extra and how much.

Offline MP99

What is their milestone payment for a successful conclusion of COTS demo 3?

cheers, Martin

Offline Nate_Trost

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #5 on: 09/21/2010 06:03 pm »
Minimal, the majority of the COTS money has already been paid out.

Online AnalogMan

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #6 on: 09/21/2010 06:53 pm »
What is their milestone payment for a successful conclusion of COTS demo 3?

cheers, Martin

These are all the milestone payments directly associated with COTS Demo 3:

Milestone 7 : Demo 3 System Requirements Review  $22.3m
Milestone 11 : Demo 3 Preliminary Design Review  $22.0m
Milestone 13 : Demo 2/3 System Critical Design Review     $25.0m
Milestone 21 : Demo 3 Readiness Review    $5.0m
Milestone 22 : Demo 3 Mission    $5.0m

The first three milestones (in italics) should have been completed before the imminent COTS Demo 1 flight - according to SpaceX's original timetable of events.  That nominally leaves $10m still to be paid.

(source: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/pdf/216459main_spacex_amend_2.pdf - signed Feb 28, 2008)
« Last Edit: 09/21/2010 06:54 pm by AnalogMan »

Offline SpacexULA

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #7 on: 09/21/2010 06:54 pm »
What is their milestone payment for a successful conclusion of COTS demo 3?

cheers, Martin

For reference, this is the original agreement.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/pdf/162330main_SPACE_ACT_AGREEMENT_FOR_COTS.pdf
« Last Edit: 09/21/2010 06:55 pm by SpacexULA »
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Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #8 on: 09/22/2010 12:44 am »
Seems like I heard at one conference that they were planning to carry cargo on that flight.  When the CRS contract was announced, the 12 missions seemed to be separate from whichever Demo makes it to Station.  It's unclear how NASA would pay for that delivery unless they use the per kilo pricing in the CRS RFP.

Since this is a test flight you have to assume a high probability of failure.  Any cargo should therefore be easy to replace.  Water and clothing fit this category.

Offline beancounter

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #9 on: 09/22/2010 01:11 am »
Seems like I heard at one conference that they were planning to carry cargo on that flight.  When the CRS contract was announced, the 12 missions seemed to be separate from whichever Demo makes it to Station.  It's unclear how NASA would pay for that delivery unless they use the per kilo pricing in the CRS RFP.

Since this is a test flight you have to assume a high probability of failure.  Any cargo should therefore be easy to replace.  Water and clothing fit this category.

No I wouldn't have thought a high probability of failure at all given that most of the risk would have been mitigated in flights 1 and 2.  If 1 goes well and NASA decides to allow 2 and 3 to be combined, that in itself, would indicate a high probability (belief) of success not failure.

That said, agree on the cargo composition.
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Offline butters

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #10 on: 09/22/2010 01:37 am »
They should just make sure to avoid including live animals in the cargo manifest for the first docking attempt (or two).  In the court of public opinion, that's the only type of cargo that would really increase the level of controversy in the event of failure.  If they lose some fancy gadgets, whatever.  If they lose those poor butterflies...

Offline savuporo

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #11 on: 09/22/2010 03:19 am »
They should just make sure to avoid including live animals in the cargo manifest for the first docking attempt (or two).  In the court of public opinion, that's the only type of cargo that would really increase the level of controversy in the event of failure.  If they lose some fancy gadgets, whatever.  If they lose those poor butterflies...

Uhoh. We used to send chimps and dogs to space, was not really a big deal at the time, was it ? Why would it be any different now, if a couple of lab mice didn't survive ?
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #12 on: 09/22/2010 03:24 am »
Why? Then the Soviets had to be beat or equaled at any (almost) cost.

Now you have political correctness, PETA, and a whole bunch of other factors.  :)

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #13 on: 09/22/2010 03:38 am »
Guys, I have had enough of PETA after having to live near their HQ all my life, lets get back on topic.

Offline MP99

What is their milestone payment for a successful conclusion of COTS demo 3?

cheers, Martin

These are all the milestone payments directly associated with COTS Demo 3:

Milestone 7 : Demo 3 System Requirements Review  $22.3m
Milestone 11 : Demo 3 Preliminary Design Review  $22.0m
Milestone 13 : Demo 2/3 System Critical Design Review     $25.0m
Milestone 21 : Demo 3 Readiness Review    $5.0m
Milestone 22 : Demo 3 Mission    $5.0m

The first three milestones (in italics) should have been completed before the imminent COTS Demo 1 flight - according to SpaceX's original timetable of events.  That nominally leaves $10m still to be paid.

(source: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/pdf/216459main_spacex_amend_2.pdf - signed Feb 28, 2008)

Thanks to all who replied.

cheers, Martin

Offline vt_hokie

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #15 on: 09/22/2010 11:41 pm »
I just saw the news about the delay of the COTS demo flight.  What was its originally targeted launch date?  If we extrapolate into the future, I think the manned Dragon is likely to arrive much later than SpaceX claims it will. 

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #16 on: 09/22/2010 11:44 pm »
I just saw the news about the delay of the COTS demo flight.  What was its originally targeted launch date?  If we extrapolate into the future, I think the manned Dragon is likely to arrive much later than SpaceX claims it will. 
SpaceX doesn't claim manned Dragon will arrive at any specific time, since their claimed arrival date is dependent on the date of funding from NASA which has not yet materialized.

And if you want to know when SpaceX will achieve such-and-such, ask Jim. He has a record of predictions for the timeline of SpaceX's accomplishments that is unsurpassed. I like SpaceX, but when someone is so consistently right while almost everyone else is not (or is silent), you have to start to trust that person's point of view.
« Last Edit: 09/22/2010 11:52 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline robertross

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #17 on: 09/22/2010 11:51 pm »
I just saw the news about the delay of the COTS demo flight.  What was its originally targeted launch date?  If we extrapolate into the future, I think the manned Dragon is likely to arrive much later than SpaceX claims it will. 

Recently they booked the range for Sept 23.
They had previously had a planned launch date of Sept 23  source (via L2, if you have access): (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21496.msg629628#msg629628), with a range date finally set for Oct 23.
« Last Edit: 09/23/2010 12:13 am by robertross »

Offline mr. mark

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #18 on: 09/23/2010 12:01 am »
Launch date is October 23rd not September 23rd. That date is dependent on the cape launch schedule and the condition of the vehicle.

Offline mr. mark

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 2)
« Reply #19 on: 09/23/2010 12:09 am »
Here is a link to a general update with a pic of the Dragon cargo capsule. http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1438

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