Quote from: deadman1204 on 07/30/2022 11:23 pmQuote from: Dalhousie on 07/30/2022 01:19 amQuote from: deadman1204 on 07/29/2022 02:03 pmQuote from: Star One on 07/29/2022 09:00 amQuote from: deadman1204 on 07/28/2022 09:21 pmQuote from: Zed_Noir on 07/28/2022 07:19 pmMe think that NASA is worry that they might not get Martian samples first before someone does it. If the Mars sample return program takes too long. So they are trying move the schedule forward.This isn't true.A grab and go sample return lander will be incredibly poor compared to these very carefully selected and wide range of samples. Any sample will of course be good, but MSR samples will be in a category of their own.Let’s not re-hash these arguments again already aired in the thread about the Chinese mission. Also don’t repeat the above stuff which as was already pointed out in the other thread sounds borderline offensive as if other nations didn’t know what they are doing.Way to shut people down and try to silence a discussion. This has nothing to do with the country doing any of the missions. Any racism in that thread was 100% made up by people like you (victimhood?). Calling one mission not as good as a different mission is not racist, and persisting in doing so only shows that your motives are not scientific. It boggles the mind that you can think a single sample from a single spot is just as good as 30 carefully curated samples from an entire area.Please understand the difference between a drill core and surface samples. Surface samples tell you very little about the subsurface. For some questions the core is greatly superior.A larger regolith samples tell you different information than smaller ones and for some questions are a superior material.You have been told this many times already. Please take this onboard. Where have I said any single sample wouldn't be amazing? I would invite you to please read anything I've written about how 30 different samples from different would ALWAYS be worth more than single sample. Consider the point of sample return - its to learn about mars. More samples from more places gives more data.No it does not. A suite of surface samples provides different data to a deep core.
Quote from: Dalhousie on 07/30/2022 01:19 amQuote from: deadman1204 on 07/29/2022 02:03 pmQuote from: Star One on 07/29/2022 09:00 amQuote from: deadman1204 on 07/28/2022 09:21 pmQuote from: Zed_Noir on 07/28/2022 07:19 pmMe think that NASA is worry that they might not get Martian samples first before someone does it. If the Mars sample return program takes too long. So they are trying move the schedule forward.This isn't true.A grab and go sample return lander will be incredibly poor compared to these very carefully selected and wide range of samples. Any sample will of course be good, but MSR samples will be in a category of their own.Let’s not re-hash these arguments again already aired in the thread about the Chinese mission. Also don’t repeat the above stuff which as was already pointed out in the other thread sounds borderline offensive as if other nations didn’t know what they are doing.Way to shut people down and try to silence a discussion. This has nothing to do with the country doing any of the missions. Any racism in that thread was 100% made up by people like you (victimhood?). Calling one mission not as good as a different mission is not racist, and persisting in doing so only shows that your motives are not scientific. It boggles the mind that you can think a single sample from a single spot is just as good as 30 carefully curated samples from an entire area.Please understand the difference between a drill core and surface samples. Surface samples tell you very little about the subsurface. For some questions the core is greatly superior.A larger regolith samples tell you different information than smaller ones and for some questions are a superior material.You have been told this many times already. Please take this onboard. Where have I said any single sample wouldn't be amazing? I would invite you to please read anything I've written about how 30 different samples from different would ALWAYS be worth more than single sample. Consider the point of sample return - its to learn about mars. More samples from more places gives more data.
Quote from: deadman1204 on 07/29/2022 02:03 pmQuote from: Star One on 07/29/2022 09:00 amQuote from: deadman1204 on 07/28/2022 09:21 pmQuote from: Zed_Noir on 07/28/2022 07:19 pmMe think that NASA is worry that they might not get Martian samples first before someone does it. If the Mars sample return program takes too long. So they are trying move the schedule forward.This isn't true.A grab and go sample return lander will be incredibly poor compared to these very carefully selected and wide range of samples. Any sample will of course be good, but MSR samples will be in a category of their own.Let’s not re-hash these arguments again already aired in the thread about the Chinese mission. Also don’t repeat the above stuff which as was already pointed out in the other thread sounds borderline offensive as if other nations didn’t know what they are doing.Way to shut people down and try to silence a discussion. This has nothing to do with the country doing any of the missions. Any racism in that thread was 100% made up by people like you (victimhood?). Calling one mission not as good as a different mission is not racist, and persisting in doing so only shows that your motives are not scientific. It boggles the mind that you can think a single sample from a single spot is just as good as 30 carefully curated samples from an entire area.Please understand the difference between a drill core and surface samples. Surface samples tell you very little about the subsurface. For some questions the core is greatly superior.A larger regolith samples tell you different information than smaller ones and for some questions are a superior material.You have been told this many times already. Please take this onboard.
Quote from: Star One on 07/29/2022 09:00 amQuote from: deadman1204 on 07/28/2022 09:21 pmQuote from: Zed_Noir on 07/28/2022 07:19 pmMe think that NASA is worry that they might not get Martian samples first before someone does it. If the Mars sample return program takes too long. So they are trying move the schedule forward.This isn't true.A grab and go sample return lander will be incredibly poor compared to these very carefully selected and wide range of samples. Any sample will of course be good, but MSR samples will be in a category of their own.Let’s not re-hash these arguments again already aired in the thread about the Chinese mission. Also don’t repeat the above stuff which as was already pointed out in the other thread sounds borderline offensive as if other nations didn’t know what they are doing.Way to shut people down and try to silence a discussion. This has nothing to do with the country doing any of the missions. Any racism in that thread was 100% made up by people like you (victimhood?). Calling one mission not as good as a different mission is not racist, and persisting in doing so only shows that your motives are not scientific. It boggles the mind that you can think a single sample from a single spot is just as good as 30 carefully curated samples from an entire area.
Quote from: deadman1204 on 07/28/2022 09:21 pmQuote from: Zed_Noir on 07/28/2022 07:19 pmMe think that NASA is worry that they might not get Martian samples first before someone does it. If the Mars sample return program takes too long. So they are trying move the schedule forward.This isn't true.A grab and go sample return lander will be incredibly poor compared to these very carefully selected and wide range of samples. Any sample will of course be good, but MSR samples will be in a category of their own.Let’s not re-hash these arguments again already aired in the thread about the Chinese mission. Also don’t repeat the above stuff which as was already pointed out in the other thread sounds borderline offensive as if other nations didn’t know what they are doing.
Quote from: Zed_Noir on 07/28/2022 07:19 pmMe think that NASA is worry that they might not get Martian samples first before someone does it. If the Mars sample return program takes too long. So they are trying move the schedule forward.This isn't true.A grab and go sample return lander will be incredibly poor compared to these very carefully selected and wide range of samples. Any sample will of course be good, but MSR samples will be in a category of their own.
Me think that NASA is worry that they might not get Martian samples first before someone does it. If the Mars sample return program takes too long. So they are trying move the schedule forward.
Quote from: Kaputnik on 07/31/2022 12:36 pmQuote from: Robotbeat on 07/27/2022 03:43 pmI honestly think a single launch, non-orbital-rendezvous sample return is a superior approach… But can it be done within the constraints of PLF diameter and parachute size that are currently available?AFAIK the MSL design pretty much maxes out the EDL approach that was qualified for Viking. Making a larger lander is a pretty big project so it can be considered something of a bottleneck.Hmm? The MSL design (Curiosity, Perseverance) uses a very different approach for the terminal phase of EDL, the famous sky crane. Are you referring to some earlier part of EDL?
Quote from: Robotbeat on 07/27/2022 03:43 pmI honestly think a single launch, non-orbital-rendezvous sample return is a superior approach… But can it be done within the constraints of PLF diameter and parachute size that are currently available?AFAIK the MSL design pretty much maxes out the EDL approach that was qualified for Viking. Making a larger lander is a pretty big project so it can be considered something of a bottleneck.
I honestly think a single launch, non-orbital-rendezvous sample return is a superior approach…
Please support your opinion. Why would a single sample core be different than 30 well characterized sites?You state this over and over as gospel but explain why you think so.
Looks like they are taking another sample on Mars. How cool is that?
Space.com has an article where a leading Mars researcher, Jack Mustard, says that the new plan to have Perseverance deliver the collected samples to the sample return lander will mean that it can't leave Jezero Crater to continue the long expected extended mission to explore Nili Planum (the Midway site). Has anyone else heard this, too?"However, by having Perseverance deliver the samples to the return capsule, the Perseverance will have to stay fixed in the landing area for sample transfer and will be unable to continue exploring Nili Planum as originally envisioned," Mustard added. "This will significantly reduce the science return from the rover and put the science of the 'Midway region' [outside the Jezero Crater floor] well into the future."https://www.space.com/nasa-perseverance-rover-jezero-crater-past-life-on-mars?utm_source=pocket_mylist
This is the first I have heard of this. But I've been assuming that there would be SOME opportunity cost for using Perseverance to deliver the sample tubes, since every day and every mile it has to spend travelling to the MAV lander is miles and days it cannot spend doing science at unexplored locations. And its travels up to that point seem necessarily contrained, too, by the need to remain within whatever JPL decides is a circle which enables a safe journey to the MAV lander site with a high chance of success. But maybe Jack Mustard has attempted to quantify those opportunity costs.
Quote from: Athelstane on 08/15/2022 10:54 pmThis is the first I have heard of this. But I've been assuming that there would be SOME opportunity cost for using Perseverance to deliver the sample tubes, since every day and every mile it has to spend travelling to the MAV lander is miles and days it cannot spend doing science at unexplored locations. And its travels up to that point seem necessarily contrained, too, by the need to remain within whatever JPL decides is a circle which enables a safe journey to the MAV lander site with a high chance of success. But maybe Jack Mustard has attempted to quantify those opportunity costs.Mustard is well placed in the Mars research community and likely to have insider information. There was a press release a while back stating that a flat area to the south of the delta was an ideal landing location for the sample return mission. My impression from the wording was that the duplicate set of 10-12 samples would be left there while the rover continued to Midway, but perhaps that was how I wanted to interpret the wording.
Welch and Glaze say not many changes are needed to Ingenuity's design for the version that will be on sample return mission. Need wheels to maneuver close to sample tubes, hook to grapple them one at a time. Will have somewhat more mass. But don't want to change too much.
Jeff Foust@jeff_foust"In an #IAC2022 session on Mars Sample Return, NASA’s Jeff Gramling says current plans call for establishing a surface cache of samples by the end of the year, with half the tubes collected to date. After that, will keep all future samples on Perseverance."https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1572144261780365312
Quote from: Blackstar on 09/21/2022 01:00 am"In an #IAC2022 session on Mars Sample Return, NASA’s Jeff Gramling says current plans call for establishing a surface cache of samples by the end of the year, with half the tubes collected to date. After that, will keep all future samples on Perseverance."So will these also be fetched by helicopters, or by some other means?
"In an #IAC2022 session on Mars Sample Return, NASA’s Jeff Gramling says current plans call for establishing a surface cache of samples by the end of the year, with half the tubes collected to date. After that, will keep all future samples on Perseverance."
Quote from: Dalhousie on 09/23/2022 12:22 amQuote from: Blackstar on 09/21/2022 01:00 am"In an #IAC2022 session on Mars Sample Return, NASA’s Jeff Gramling says current plans call for establishing a surface cache of samples by the end of the year, with half the tubes collected to date. After that, will keep all future samples on Perseverance."So will these also be fetched by helicopters, or by some other means?The hope is that these sample tubes will *never* be retrieved.After the exploration of the crater floor and lower delta, Perseverance will enter riskier terrain, and will be getting older (projects suggest she has a long life ahead, but shit happens). Something could happen that would prevent collection of any filled sample tubes on the rover sometime over the next few years. As a contingency plan, the rover has been collecting duplicate samples from the crater floor and lower delta. One of each pair will be left on the crater floor. If something happens to Perseverance, the samples could be collected by a future mission.However, the route ahead contains *many* interesting new potential sample locations. With skill, some luck, and good hardware health, Perseverance will collect a good number of samples from these addition sample locations. It's hoped that it will be this richer set of samples that will be returned. But in case, there will be the samples left on the crater floor.
Quote from: vjkane on 09/23/2022 03:19 amQuote from: Dalhousie on 09/23/2022 12:22 amQuote from: Blackstar on 09/21/2022 01:00 am"In an #IAC2022 session on Mars Sample Return, NASA’s Jeff Gramling says current plans call for establishing a surface cache of samples by the end of the year, with half the tubes collected to date. After that, will keep all future samples on Perseverance."So will these also be fetched by helicopters, or by some other means?The hope is that these sample tubes will *never* be retrieved.After the exploration of the crater floor and lower delta, Perseverance will enter riskier terrain, and will be getting older (projects suggest she has a long life ahead, but shit happens). Something could happen that would prevent collection of any filled sample tubes on the rover sometime over the next few years. As a contingency plan, the rover has been collecting duplicate samples from the crater floor and lower delta. One of each pair will be left on the crater floor. If something happens to Perseverance, the samples could be collected by a future mission.However, the route ahead contains *many* interesting new potential sample locations. With skill, some luck, and good hardware health, Perseverance will collect a good number of samples from these addition sample locations. It's hoped that it will be this richer set of samples that will be returned. But in case, there will be the samples left on the crater floor.If they are not going to be retrieved, why collect them?
Quote from: Dalhousie on 09/23/2022 05:01 amQuote from: vjkane on 09/23/2022 03:19 amQuote from: Dalhousie on 09/23/2022 12:22 amQuote from: Blackstar on 09/21/2022 01:00 am"In an #IAC2022 session on Mars Sample Return, NASA’s Jeff Gramling says current plans call for establishing a surface cache of samples by the end of the year, with half the tubes collected to date. After that, will keep all future samples on Perseverance."So will these also be fetched by helicopters, or by some other means?The hope is that these sample tubes will *never* be retrieved.After the exploration of the crater floor and lower delta, Perseverance will enter riskier terrain, and will be getting older (projects suggest she has a long life ahead, but shit happens). Something could happen that would prevent collection of any filled sample tubes on the rover sometime over the next few years. As a contingency plan, the rover has been collecting duplicate samples from the crater floor and lower delta. One of each pair will be left on the crater floor. If something happens to Perseverance, the samples could be collected by a future mission.However, the route ahead contains *many* interesting new potential sample locations. With skill, some luck, and good hardware health, Perseverance will collect a good number of samples from these addition sample locations. It's hoped that it will be this richer set of samples that will be returned. But in case, there will be the samples left on the crater floor.If they are not going to be retrieved, why collect them?They would only be retrieved if Perseverance is disabled and cannot deliver it's half of the duplicated samples (and any later ones collected) to the MAV directly, as is the primary delivery mechanism. They are collected to provide redundancy in case of failure, such that loss of Perseverance is not loss of mission.