Author Topic: Beresheet, SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission  (Read 127610 times)

Offline Star One

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #500 on: 08/13/2019 01:50 pm »
Predictably, someone is freaking out on twitter over tardigrades:

https://twitter.com/AstroTraviesa/status/1160318429322199046

BTW, didn't China send silkworms to the Moon, where is "planetary protection" folks when China was doing it?

That person probably needs to read this article about how it’s possible Tardigrades were already on the moon.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/life-unbounded/tardigrades-were-already-on-the-moon/

Offline whitelancer64

Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #501 on: 08/13/2019 03:39 pm »
We already contaminated the Moon during Apollo.

I don't think a lander carrying some desiccated tardigrades - that by the way, impacted the moon at something like 1 km/s - is that big of a deal, and really, very few people do think it's a problem.
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Offline ccdengr

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #502 on: 08/13/2019 05:30 pm »
impacted the moon at something like 1 km/s
Estimated impact velocity was 500 km/hour (from https://spacenews.com/spaceil-says-chain-of-events-led-to-crash-of-lunar-lander/ ) which is 0.14 km/sec.  Unless there was a much faster estimate I missed.

Offline ugordan

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #503 on: 08/13/2019 06:32 pm »
impacted the moon at something like 1 km/s
Estimated impact velocity was 500 km/hour (from https://spacenews.com/spaceil-says-chain-of-events-led-to-crash-of-lunar-lander/ ) which is 0.14 km/sec.  Unless there was a much faster estimate I missed.

Pretty sure that's just the vertical component of the velocity. There was a lot of horizontal velocity in the mix.

Offline yg1968

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #504 on: 08/17/2019 12:20 am »
« Last Edit: 08/17/2019 01:02 am by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #505 on: 08/27/2019 02:47 am »
« Last Edit: 08/27/2019 02:53 am by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #507 on: 09/01/2019 01:21 am »
Interesting take by Robert Zubrin:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/planetary-protection-rules-hamper-space-exploration/
Rather a sane viewpoint.

Therefore not likely to carry the day I think
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Offline spacexplorer

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #508 on: 09/07/2019 10:01 am »
Apart from tardigrades, is ther any news about outcomes of investigation on causes of crash?

Offline yg1968

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #509 on: 09/09/2019 09:32 pm »
Another legal article related to the tardigrades story (parts 1 and 2):
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/3783/1
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/3786/1

Online Steven Pietrobon

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #510 on: 09/14/2019 05:15 am »
Looks like the root cause of the crash landing are "unknown unknowns"! Without more information, only SpaceIL and Firefly will be learning this lesson.

"In some cases, despite the use of high-TRL components, the unknown unknowns caused problems, and IAI has made the appropriate upgrades to mitigate these problems for future missions."

https://firefly.com/genesis/
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline spacexplorer

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #511 on: 09/19/2019 07:26 am »
Was the final resting position of Beresheet photographed by LRO?

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #512 on: 09/19/2019 09:31 am »
Yes - Google will lead you here:

http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/posts/1101


Offline dror

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #513 on: 09/20/2019 05:36 am »
Looks like the root cause of the crash landing are "unknown unknowns"! Without more information, only SpaceIL and Firefly will be learning this lesson.

"In some cases, despite the use of high-TRL components, the unknown unknowns caused problems, and IAI has made the appropriate upgrades to mitigate these problems for future missions."

https://firefly.com/genesis/
This is so funny!
Meaningless PR BS
Space is hard immensely complex and high risk !

Offline QuantumG

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #514 on: 09/20/2019 06:08 am »
Looks like the root cause of the crash landing are "unknown unknowns"! Without more information, only SpaceIL and Firefly will be learning this lesson.

"In some cases, despite the use of high-TRL components, the unknown unknowns caused problems, and IAI has made the appropriate upgrades to mitigate these problems for future missions."

https://firefly.com/genesis/
This is so funny!
Meaningless PR BS

I'll translate for ya: SpaceIL needed more money after the GLXP bombed out, and we needed credibility after years of achieving nothing, so we applied for the CLPS program as a shell company to avoid the US-national-requirements - hey, it worked for RocketLab! So here we are, trying to somehow shoehorn a lunar lander into our product offering. It makes sense!

No really. A lunar lander has all the basic technology you need to solve to do modern autonomous rockets ala SpaceX, Masten (who I'm actually quoting here) and Armadillo (now Exos). This is the technology I've watched get born over the last 10 years. It's just all so blatantly obvious to a computer geek like me - stop using embedded systems that are emulating shit from the 1960s and apply the full power of this ready and eager industry to your teams - stop pretending that anything you don't understand is bad and trust the experts in other fields. This technology is so readily available now - you're welcome.

Pro Tip: if you are getting all your knowledge about a field from the people in that field, you better be good at sorting the truth from the Incorrect, because there's a lot of confidence guys and pretend spooks (no really, you work for the NSA?! Me too!) hiding amongst this lot. It really burns when you figure out one of your heroes is everything they said he was.  😅

Of course there's so many stories you can't tell - because you weren't on the inside, so you don't already have a narrative - but they all come together eventually. Little hints here and there. The side-show to keep the tourists interested while the real action gets reported in the media. Ho-boy, was that a bad move? Oh, you're actually doing a pivot with an Israeli partner? Well - that's gotta win some votes.

Chinese partner: might as well write your bankruptcy up now.

Who has LinkSpace BTW? You can't just hold a card like that and think we're not gunna remember you've got it! Is it you Bezos? Was that the plan? Turn dollars into invention in Shenzhen to take away the competitive advantage of everyone who currently competes with you while broadcasting out as loud as you possibly can that you're not doing anything?

Hey Mom!

Mom: Yes, son.

I'm just going to go into the kitchen to get an apple.

Mom: Really...?

Yep, just an apple.

Nothin' untoward going on here.

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Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Online zubenelgenubi

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Re: Beresheet, SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #515 on: 11/23/2019 08:08 pm »
Looks like the root cause of the crash landing are "unknown unknowns"! Without more information, only SpaceIL and Firefly will be learning this lesson.

"In some cases, despite the use of high-TRL components, the unknown unknowns caused problems, and IAI has made the appropriate upgrades to mitigate these problems for future missions."

https://firefly.com/genesis/

From New details emerge about failed lunar landings, dated Nov 21, 2019
Quote
In that paper [presented at the IAC in October], [IAI] said one of two inertial measurement units (IMUs) on the spacecraft malfunctioned during descent and was shut down by the onboard computer. Controllers uploaded commands to turn the unit back on.

“This led to a cascade of resets in the spacecraft avionics, which shut off the main engine and prevented proper engine activation,” the paper stated.

A review of the lander telemetry found that the decision to turn the IMU back on “triggered a communication block” between the IMU and the central processing unit, according to the paper, keeping data from the other, working IMU from reaching the system and thus causing the thrusters to turn off and the computer to reboot.

“As result, all accumulated [software] updates that were stored on a volatile memory (SRAM) were eliminated during reboot,” the paper stated. “Therefore, the computer did not contain all the essential changes implemented during the flight, which made autonomous recovery impossible.”
« Last Edit: 11/23/2019 08:15 pm by zubenelgenubi »
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Offline su27k

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Re: Beresheet, SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #516 on: 11/24/2019 01:39 am »
I wonder why did they try to turn the IMU back on if it's malfunctioning.

Online zubenelgenubi

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Re: Beresheet, SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #517 on: 11/24/2019 02:34 am »
I wonder why did they try to turn the IMU back on if it's malfunctioning.

Further from the same article:
Quote
Among the changes recommended in the paper were to allow full updates of the lander’s software during flight, and storing that software in non-volatile memory that is not wiped during a computer reboot.

Apparently, the controllers did not realize the consequences of their action--the difference between how the command executed, as opposed to how they thought the command should execute.

Possibility: Also, insufficient contingency simulations?  Example: simulating a landing in which one of the two IMUs fails.
Were the IMUs considered "high-TRL" components, which did not need to be extensively tested as part of the lander system?
"In some cases, despite the use of high-TRL components, the unknown unknowns caused problems, and IAI has made the appropriate upgrades to mitigate these problems for future missions."

https://firefly.com/genesis/
***

Why were there not triply-redundant IMUs?  If one fails, there are still two working.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2019 04:22 am by zubenelgenubi »
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Offline mn

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Re: Beresheet, SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #518 on: 11/24/2019 03:57 am »
So they programmed the ability to remotely reset the IMU but never tested what would happen if they actually tried to run that command.

Unfortunately I'm not surprised.

Edit to add: during the landing attempt if I remember correctly at least one engineer can be heard saying not to reset, apparently they didn't listen to him.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2019 04:22 am by mn »

Online zubenelgenubi

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Re: Beresheet, SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #519 on: 11/24/2019 04:50 am »
Re-post from up-thread:
It's interesting that the IMU issue was called out a couple minutes before the engine not running was called out. I'm wondering if the "chain reaction" mentioned in the preliminary findings involved loss of attitude information that then might have prompted the engine shutdown.
I'm thinking it would be good for the next attempt if there is no actual hardware issue involved in this failure. Sounds like it might just be software.

My understanding is that the spacecraft was using IMU 1 and was not initially affected by the failure of IMU 2. One engineer asks if they should attempt to enable IMU 2 and another engineer asks 'would that cause the system to switch to it (presumably 'it' means IMU 2). Perhaps despite the word of caution from the 2nd engineer someone did send a command to attempt to restart IMU 2 and perhaps that is what they mean by a bad command starting a chain of events...

Lots of speculation here, please take it all with a large serving of salt.
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