Author Topic: Vega Methalox  (Read 6001 times)

Offline Tywin

Vega Methalox
« on: 10/09/2022 12:46 pm »
Avio will create a Vega reusable, and with Methalox...

https://www.avio.com/press-release/next-gen-eu-contracts-funded-340m-euro-completion-signed-avio-development-new-green

Good competition vs Maia Space...
« Last Edit: 10/11/2022 03:23 am by zubenelgenubi »
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Offline Asteroza

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Re: Vega Methalox
« Reply #1 on: 10/09/2022 11:03 pm »
How suitable would this be for an Ariane 6 P120 replacement?
« Last Edit: 10/11/2022 03:23 am by zubenelgenubi »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Vega Methalox
« Reply #2 on: 10/12/2022 05:45 am »
I'm not sure this will be reusable. The press release says the technologies developed have the potential to be reusable.

"LOX-methane technologies, given their clean-combustion characteristics, are ideally suited for potential re-usability and allow today extensive use of single-material/single-part 3D-printed manufacturing."

"The goal of the two projects is to prepare the ground for next-generation space transportation systems beyond Vega E, based on green liquid propulsion (potentially re-usable) technology."
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Vega Methalox
« Reply #3 on: 10/12/2022 06:35 pm »
The press release has to be read very precisely to make a right conclusion. So please read again.
There are 2 projects. Budget for now is 11mln.

I think the micro launcher demonstrator will use VUS (Vega-E) upper-stage with a single M10 engine. The First stage is likely to use several (5 to 9) M10 engines. I expect the demonstrator rocket to be sized ~ 2.3x 30m. It's likely to use a fairing derived from Vega, and I expect quite similar performance for Vega and the micro launcher demo.

The second development is a engine ~6x more powerful than M10 so M60. Prometheus is 1 to 1.2MN so M100 to M120.
The micro launcher in expendable mode could use a single M60 engine instead of several M10 engines.

I would prefer a P120C replacement with ~7xM60 engines than the Themis/Maia space one. 3.4x >20m.
P120C delivers <4.2MN for 135sec. (3x1.2MN= 3.6MN or 7x0.6MN = 4.2MN), scale VUS as well so single M60 on a 3.4m diameter stage. And you have a successor for Soyuz.
But this is a program that follows this one. And Avio wants governmental funding for the full development.
SO THIS IS A VERY BAD THING FOR EUROPEAN COMMERCIAL MICROLAUNCHERS.
Especially since Italy funds this from European covid economy recovery funding. So payed by EU net contributors (northern European nations).
In my opinion both Themis/Maia space and the Avio micro launcher are huge waists of governmental funding.

Avio got funding for the M10 engine development. I think that's a good thing, because the performance gain from Vega C to Vega E enable many more payloads that used to require a Soyuz launch.
Avio should raise pivate funding to develop the micro launcher. German, UK and Spanish competitors didn't get governmental funding for their engine development and are developing a micro launcher with funding from investors. And Avio already has a launch pad (ELV). So Avio already has a huge advantage.

I like the M60 engine development. I think M10, M60 and M120/Prometheus are all useful engines for different purposes.

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Vega Methalox
« Reply #4 on: 03/14/2023 07:17 pm »
we have a go ...
« Last Edit: 03/14/2023 07:18 pm by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline Tywin

Re: Vega Methalox
« Reply #5 on: 03/17/2023 12:16 pm »
Will this Vega compete vs Maia Space for the future Ariane 7?
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Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Vega Methalox
« Reply #6 on: 03/17/2023 07:47 pm »
Will this Vega compete vs Maia Space for the future Ariane 7?
This is question that is very difficult to answer. My short conclusion is No.
ESA/ArianeGroup develops Ariane launchers (thus Maia space launcher would be Ariane 7), Avio could develop a launcher that competes with it. But that's a Vega or another named launcher.

ArianeGroup with funding from ESA Future Launcher Preparatory program is developing the 1200kN Prometheus engine. Maia Space has the plan to develop launchers with different amount of Prometheus engines in the first stages.
Avio has been developing the ~100kN Myra/M10 engine. They will develop Vega E that uses P120C(+)-Z40-VUS; this new 3th stage uses the M10 engine. An the VUS stage has the same diameter as Z40 thus ~2.3m.

The first project: STS; that has received 181,6mln euro funding; is the maiden launch of a light weight launcher with two LOx Methane stages. They try to use composite tank structures.
I think this means they are developing a booster with multiple M10 (sealevel optimized) engines, and use VUS as upperstage. This demonstrator rocket (2.3x~30m) is a little bit smaller than Relativity Space Terran 1. I expect it will have 1000 to 1200kg payload capability to ~700km SSO from ELV.
The second project: HTE with 103.7mln funding; is the development of a >5x more powerful engine than M10; thus a LOx Methane engine with >500kN thrust. They start engine testing after Vega E & STS have been developed; so from 2026.

The HTE (M60) engine could replace the multiple M10 engines on the STS if it's expendable. (Like Terran 1)
When Avio successfully develop both STS and HTE; they could make a larger launcher. With multiple HTE engines in the first stage and a single engine in the upperstage. I think this launcher might have the same diameter as P120C(+) ~3.4m. They could also launch in the P120C+ - HTE upperstage configuration.
The first stage of this launcher could directly replace the P120C(+) stages for Ariane 6. I'll propose the A62L and A64L designations for these launchers.

Maia Space (ArianeGroup) has proposals for first stages with 3, 5 and 9 Prometheus engines. I think the version with 5 engines has similar performance as a 3.4m stage with 7 or 9 HTE engines. ArianeGroup is proposing the 3 engine stage (Themis demonstrator) as replacement for P120C(+).
So in this situation Avio and Maia Space could compete directly.
I think the 9x Prometheus engine launcher would be Ariane 7.
(But I would prefer a situation where: ArianeGroup (France), builds 5.4m LLPM with [1xVulcain/ 1or2 Prometheus] LOx H2 engines and [7x Prometheus LOx Methane] stages.)

Offline floss

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Re: Vega Methalox
« Reply #7 on: 08/18/2023 11:49 am »
This is why I wan Vega  moved so a new launcher can be placed on Ela 2

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Vega Methalox
« Reply #8 on: 08/20/2023 04:54 pm »
This is why I wan Vega  moved so a new launcher can be placed on Ela 2
This post was to short to make a clear point.
You want Vega to move to a new launch zone. What zone are you thinking about?
Vega launches from ELV that is repurposing ELA-1 the Ariane 1-3 launch zone. (It was originally build for the Europa rocket) It's currently usable for Vega and Vega C, that use solid and hypergolic propellents.

"So a new launcher can be placed on ELA 2." ELA 2 was the Ariane 4 launch zone.
I don't think that's possible because the air cryo-chiller; liquid Nitrogen and oxigen production plant is located to close to it.
And the launch control centers are also located very close to it.

With the development of Vega E; the ELV launch zone will receive equipment to accommodate LOx and LNG as propellants.
When these are available the two sizes of Vega Methalox can launch from there.

I think the the ELS (soyuz) launch zone and ELA3 Ariane 5 launch zone are up for repurposing.
« Last Edit: 08/21/2023 09:40 pm by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline floss

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Re: Vega Methalox
« Reply #9 on: 08/20/2023 08:26 pm »
This is why I wan Vega  moved so a new launcher can be placed on Ela 2
This post was to short to make a clear point.
You want Vega to move to a new launch zone. What zone are you thinking about?
Vega launches from ELV that is repurposing ELA-1 the Ariane 1-3 launch zone. (It was originally build for the Europa rocket) It's currently usable for Vega and Vega C, that use solid and hypergolic propellents.

"So a new launcher can be placed on ELA 2." ELA 2 was the Ariane 4 launch zone.
I don't think that's possible because the air cryo-chiller; liquid Nitrogen and oxigen production plant is located to close to it.
And the launch control centers are also located very close to it.

With the development of Vega E; the ELV launch zone will receive equipment to accommodate LOx and LNG as prepollents.
When these are available the two sizes or Vega Methalox can launch from there.

I think the the ELS (soyuz) launch zone and ELA3 Ariane 5 launch zone are up for repurposing.

Pardon my error ELA 1 I want Vega moved so that a small liquid curled launcher can  be launched from from  ELA 1 .
 I believe that we will never get funding for liquid reusable boosters will be available for any company unless they have instutioal experience .
 

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Vega Methalox
« Reply #10 on: 08/20/2023 11:53 pm »
This is why I wan Vega  moved so a new launcher can be placed on Ela 2
This post was to short to make a clear point.
You want Vega to move to a new launch zone. What zone are you thinking about?
Vega launches from ELV that is repurposing ELA-1 the Ariane 1-3 launch zone. (It was originally build for the Europa rocket) It's currently usable for Vega and Vega C, that use solid and hypergolic propellents.

"So a new launcher can be placed on ELA 2." ELA 2 was the Ariane 4 launch zone.
I don't think that's possible because the air cryo-chiller; liquid Nitrogen and oxigen production plant is located to close to it.
And the launch control centers are also located very close to it.

With the development of Vega E; the ELV launch zone will receive equipment to accommodate LOx and LNG as prepollents.
When these are available the two sizes or Vega Methalox can launch from there.

I think the the ELS (soyuz) launch zone and ELA3 Ariane 5 launch zone are up for repurposing.

Pardon my error ELA 1 I want Vega moved so that a small liquid curled fueled launcher can  be launched from from  ELA 1 .
 I believe that we will never get funding for liquid reusable boosters will be available for any company unless they have instutioal experience .
 
Rather than moving Vega from the ELV launch zone. It will be easier to renovated the ELS (Soyuz) launch zone for a new reusable liquid fueled launcher. However funding any new launcher in the immediate future may be problematic due to institutional inertia.

Note - fixed the typo for you.

Offline floss

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Re: Vega Methalox
« Reply #11 on: 08/21/2023 04:44 am »
That's what I mean we will have pipe dreams of landing boosters for 20 years while Ariane 6 is being used simple because of industrial inertia and the Soyuz pad is too big for a small business .

Ideally two or three small launchers to make a robust industry capable of doing more .

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Vega Methalox
« Reply #12 on: 08/21/2023 06:53 pm »
Let Avio use ELV for Vega (C/E/...) or it's liquid rockets. There are plans for modifications to ELV so it can accommodate Vega-E. So LOX LNG propallent handling facilities. When they size these larger, larger MethLox stages and rockets can use ELV.
I think the flame trench of ELV is rated at about 4MN. So 7x M60= 4.2MN (vacum) should be possible.

For other launchers there are three options.
CNES is refurbishing the Diamond launch zone for small launchers. CNES ELM
I think there could be three launch zones for small launchers at the diamond site. Currently only one is planned.

The other two options are repurposing of the ELS (Sojuz) and ELA-3 (Ariane 5) launch zones.
ELS has kerolox facilities and a >4MN flame trench. ELA-3 (Ariane 5) launch zone HydroLOx facilities and has a ~1.5MN flame deflector for Vulcain and another deflector for the solids.
I think the deflector for the Vulcain engine could be used by a small launchers or as rocket engine test bench. There are two Ariane5 launch tables, that could be converted.

But I think Vega methalox can launch from ELV, when it has received methalox facilities.
« Last Edit: 08/31/2023 09:29 pm by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Vega Methalox
« Reply #13 on: 08/21/2023 08:04 pm »
Sorry this is going off topic.

The availability of launch facilities isn't the problem for developing micro-launchers.
The problem is availability of rocket engine test facilities and cumbersome regulations.

France wants to stimulate it's micro-launchers by ordering demonstration missions. European Spaceflight.
They better improve acces to rocket engine test facilities first.
Why are both France and German launcher startups going abroad to test their rocket engines. While the main test sites are in
France and Germany.
(ELA3, ELS and the Diamond launch zones could also be used to test rocket engines and stages.)

I think a forth target mission should be proposed in the France proposal
 >300kg to > 200km suborbital; and attempting to land the stage using propulsion.
Landing technology is immature in Europe. It's needed for lunar and martian missions, as well as on reusable rockets.

Avio in Italy /Sardinia got funding to construct a 2MN rated MethaLox test bench. This used to develop the M10 engine, and is planned to be used for the M60/HTE engine. I get the impression Avio tests one engine per year, on the facility. Possibly the development cycle is this long, or are there also restrictions?

To close off;
what is the definition of Vega Methalox?
Is one stage Methalox sufficient, or do all solids need to be replaced by Methalox stages?

One Methalox stage:
Vega E: P120C(+) / Zefiro40, VUS (M10)
Vega F: P120C(+) / M60 2th stage.
With optional hypergolic in orbit stage

Or full methalox:
STS/Demo rocket: ? M10+ VUS(M10)
Expendable micro:  M60 / VUS(M10)
MLV: ? M60 / M60 upper-stage.


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