Wrong, no Thales Alenia in Germany. If Germany has the majority stake in the program... you can imagine how it ends.
Ariane 6 will launch Argonaut in a direct flight to the Moon. 🚀🌑Argonaut is #Europe’s autonomous lunar lander. Designed to be versatile it could bring cargo, a rover, production facilities or even a power station to the Moon: https://esa.int/argonaut
The Modules will remain the same. They have already been negotiated against Orion seats to Gateway.Never seen a negotiation where you get more with the same bargaining chip.
Ok so we are back to my original question.My impression is that Starship with its low operating cost and huge payload to Lunar surface reduces considerably the bargaining power of the pair Ariane 64 / Argonaut. So do I miss something which makes Ariane 64 / Argonaut against ESA astronaut on the surface a palatable deal for NASA much more than I think ?
Quote from: hektor on 02/24/2023 10:50 pmOk so we are back to my original question.My impression is that Starship with its low operating cost and huge payload to Lunar surface reduces considerably the bargaining power of the pair Ariane 64 / Argonaut. So do I miss something which makes Ariane 64 / Argonaut against ESA astronaut on the surface a palatable deal for NASA much more than I think ?I see what you mean but I think that the argument is that NASA and its Artemis partners need small cargo (CLPS), medium (Argonaut) and large cargo capability (cargo HLS-Starship) to the lunar surface. Argonaut would fit into the medium cargo capability.
Quote from: yg1968 on 07/20/2023 02:09 pmQuote from: hektor on 02/24/2023 10:50 pmOk so we are back to my original question.My impression is that Starship with its low operating cost and huge payload to Lunar surface reduces considerably the bargaining power of the pair Ariane 64 / Argonaut. So do I miss something which makes Ariane 64 / Argonaut against ESA astronaut on the surface a palatable deal for NASA much more than I think ?I see what you mean but I think that the argument is that NASA and its Artemis partners need small cargo (CLPS), medium (Argonaut) and large cargo capability (cargo HLS-Starship) to the lunar surface. Argonaut would fit into the medium cargo capability.The argument for three sizes is only valid if smaller is cheaper. IF starship works at all, and IF (big if) an expendable Starship is cheaper (single unit cost) than a smaller launcher, then this argument disappears. Of course Starship will also crush the competition for any lunar destination that is the target of multiple payloads that are collectively too large for the smaller landers. The huge Starship may end up being cheaper than smaller landers because Starships are to be made in high volume from cheap standardized materials. Finally, a landed expended Starship is a resource that can be used as is or broken up for parts and materials.
As an alternative to increase Ariane 6 performances, we are looking at in-orbit refueling, working on an Argonaut concept with in-orbit refueling to increase its performance. So, with two Ariane 6s, we launch a full reservoir and an Argonaut with its payload and little fuel. Then we will dock to the tank to refuel. This scenario gives a big increase in performance to get cargo to the Moon surface. Argonaut is a European lunar lander that will provide autonomous access to the Moon for Europe, allowing us to play a major role on the surface of our natural satellite. In the 2030s, Argonaut, launched on Ariane 6, will deliver up to 2,100 kg of cargo to the Moon’s surface.
Thales Alenia Space, has signed a contract with the European Space Agency (ESA), worth € 862 Million, related to the design, the development and the delivery of the Lunar Descent Element (LDE) for ESA’s Argonaut Mission, including responsibility for mission design and integration.Planned to be launched from the 2030s, Argonaut will deliver cargo, infrastructure and scientific instruments to the Moon’s surface.The first mission is envisioned to deal with delivery of dedicated navigation and telecommunication payloads as well as energy generation and storage system, as European enterprises to explore the Lunar southern area.About ArgonautThe Argonaut spacecraft consists of three main elements: the lunar descent element (LDE) for flying to the Moon and landing on the target, the cargo platform one, which is the interface between the lander and its payload, and finally, the element that the mission designers want to send to the Moon.Adaptability is a key element of Argonaut's design, which is why the cargo platform is designed to accept any mission profile: cargo for astronauts near the landing site, a rover, technology demonstration packages, production facilities using lunar resources, a lunar telescope or even a power station. The project will strengthen Thales Alenia Space’s skills in several technological areas essential to space exploration beyond the Moon.The future space ecosystem requires new solutions dedicated to the transport and return of cargo from low Earth orbit and lunar orbit, as well as crew transport to low Earth orbit. Thales Alenia Space is ready to put in place what is needed to prepare for humanity’s future life and presence in Space, laying the foundations for the post-ISS era and meeting new economic needs for research and science.Argonaut consortium: who does what?Thales Alenia Space is the prime contractor for the development of the Lunar Descent Element. The overall mission responsibility, ie the use of the LDE and integration with payload, will be the subject of a separate procurement in the future. The Lunar Descent Element is an independent architecture block of the international lunar exploration activities, namely a versatile system to support a variety of missions.As prime contractor and system integrator of the Lunar Descent Element, Thales Alenia Space in Italy will lead the industrial consortium that will be responsible for the system, the entry descent and landing aspects, as well as the general and specific architectures of the thermomechanical, avionics and software chains. Thales Alenia Space in France and in the UK will respectively focus on data handling systems and propulsion. OHB System AG as additional core team member of the Thales Alenia Space consortium will be responsible for guidance, navigation and control (GNC), electrical power systems (EPS) and telecommunications (TT&C) aspects.“Argonaut lunar lander means a lot to our company” said Hervé Derrey, Thales Alenia Space CEO. “Thanks to this astonishing space vehicle, tons of cargo will be delivered to the Moon’s surface, including rovers, scientific missions and many more. This new element of the Artemis program will serve at facilitating long-duration manned lunar exploration missions and will be crucial to increase European autonomy in lunar exploration. The Moon will also serve as a stepping stone for crewed missions into deep space, with Mars being the next stage of the journey. I wanted to express my gratitude to ESA for awarding this new contract to our company. Today’s major achievement strengthens more than ever Thales Alenia Space’s leading positions in the fields of space transportation systems, orbital infrastructures and space exploration”.“We are truly honored that ESA has renewed its trust in our company by awarding Thales Alenia Space this major contract to develop the European lunar lander that will enable Europe to access autonomously to the Moon’s surface”, said Giampiero Di Paolo, Deputy CEO and Senior Vice President, Observation, Exploration and Navigation at Thales Alenia Space. “Today, with its longstanding expertise in space exploration infrastructure and vehicles, our company, in line with ESA’s and ASI’s visions, has decided to enhance its competitiveness by investing in the development of technological solutions to help Europe achieve its goals. Supplying a significant proportion of the International Space Station’s pressurized volume, playing a major role on board Artemis, manufacturing the backbone of Orion’s European service module and leading flagship transportation programs such as IXV or Space Rider, Thales Alenia Space is more than ever at the forefront of exploration and space transportation systems”.
A lunar lander which will be built by a consortium of corporations - why does everything in Europe have to be so OldSpace?
https://twitter.com/esaspaceflight/status/1884975137251852525
Quote from: Svetoslav on 01/30/2025 02:13 pmA lunar lander which will be built by a consortium of corporations - why does everything in Europe have to be so OldSpace?Maybe because in Europe, old space companies are pretty good at delivering on big projects like this with tight budgets and deadlines? ArianeGroup is a notable exception, sure. I'd admit that. Thales Alenia Space is incredible, though. I think they are absolutely the best people to execute on Argonaut.
