Quote from: Zed_Noir on 08/04/2023 10:06 pmQuote from: pochimax on 08/04/2023 07:34 pmI wonder why so much sudden interest in European rocketsIs this a self-serving attack to demoralize European taxpayers and lose our independent access to space, in favor of SpaceX?why not the same interest in the Japanese H-3, which looks just as messy?For a European to attack Arianespace like this borders on treason.Let's get Ariane 6 up and running first, then we'll see how we can improve the situation.And if necessary, access in Europe to foreign communications constellations will have to be closed.Europe has to have its own independent access to space, no matter the price.The issue is how noncompetitive the Ariane 6 is in putting up satellites in launch price and launch frequency in the future. Which make deploying an European LEO satcom constellation really hard. Since the Ariane 6 probably can optimistically launch about 15 times annually.As I see it: Europe can have limited non commercial access to space at a high cost with the launch hardware currently in development.Exactly. With A6 and Vega-C Europe will have its required independent access to space BUT at a huge cost. And unlike the times of Ariane 1 thru Ariane 5, ESA won't be able to keep the costs for institutional launches down. Courtesy of having lost the commercial launch market to SpaceX. So, the institutional launches going up on Ariane 6 and Vega-C will pay hefty launch prices.
Quote from: pochimax on 08/04/2023 07:34 pmI wonder why so much sudden interest in European rocketsIs this a self-serving attack to demoralize European taxpayers and lose our independent access to space, in favor of SpaceX?why not the same interest in the Japanese H-3, which looks just as messy?For a European to attack Arianespace like this borders on treason.Let's get Ariane 6 up and running first, then we'll see how we can improve the situation.And if necessary, access in Europe to foreign communications constellations will have to be closed.Europe has to have its own independent access to space, no matter the price.The issue is how noncompetitive the Ariane 6 is in putting up satellites in launch price and launch frequency in the future. Which make deploying an European LEO satcom constellation really hard. Since the Ariane 6 probably can optimistically launch about 15 times annually.As I see it: Europe can have limited non commercial access to space at a high cost with the launch hardware currently in development.
I wonder why so much sudden interest in European rocketsIs this a self-serving attack to demoralize European taxpayers and lose our independent access to space, in favor of SpaceX?why not the same interest in the Japanese H-3, which looks just as messy?For a European to attack Arianespace like this borders on treason.Let's get Ariane 6 up and running first, then we'll see how we can improve the situation.And if necessary, access in Europe to foreign communications constellations will have to be closed.Europe has to have its own independent access to space, no matter the price.
..."Of course there is a crisis of launchers in Europe; that is why we are all focused on Ariane 6," said Philippe Baptiste, chairman and CEO of the French space agency CNES. "As far as institutional launch is concerned, the root of the crisis is mostly the Soyuz. The war in Ukraine had tremendous consequences, including the end of the Soyuz in French Guiana."Europe recently launched its Euclid space telescope on a Falcon 9 rocket, and its EarthCARE planetary science mission will also launch next year on the SpaceX rocket. However, during the news conference, Israël seemed to have a difficult time saying the name of his competitor out loud. "Euclid has been launched by another launcher," he said. "It will be the same for EarthCARE."Still to be determined is the fate of four Galileo navigation satellites. That decision remains under consideration by the European Commission, but it seems most probable that the four satellites will be launched on two Falcon 9 missions since that is the only Western rocket with any spare capacity for the next couple of years....
https://twitter.com/aschbacherjosef/status/1704875460000129370QuoteAriane 6 task force update: great data and results from the hot-fire September tests for #Ariane6 both in French Guiana and Germany. However, an anomaly was detected in the thrust control vector hydraulics when preparing for the next test and the long-duration hot firing test will no longer take place on 3 October as teams investigate the causes. We will come back to you with more updates when available.https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Space_Transportation/Ariane/Ariane_6_joint_update_report_21_September_2023
Ariane 6 task force update: great data and results from the hot-fire September tests for #Ariane6 both in French Guiana and Germany. However, an anomaly was detected in the thrust control vector hydraulics when preparing for the next test and the long-duration hot firing test will no longer take place on 3 October as teams investigate the causes. We will come back to you with more updates when available.
Space: Airbus and Safran want more public money to operate Ariane 6According to corroborating sources, ArianeGroup, owned by Airbus and Safran, is negotiating with the member states of the European Space Agency a very clear reassessment of support for the operation of Ariane 6 due to the consequences of inflation. The manufacturer is asking for €350 million per year, corresponding to an increase of ... 150%.Michel Cabirol08 Oct 2023, 5:00 pmA complete paradigm shift. In 2014, when they announced that they wanted to take control of the Ariane 6 program, Airbus and Safran proclaimed loud and clear that they did not need public aid for the operation of the future European heavy launcher, this is no longer the case. This is the original sin of the two industrialists, who in order to "privatize" Ariane 6 at all costs, have promised mountains and wonders to the Member States of the European Space Agency (ESA), in particular to France, which has always ensured European leadership in the field of launchers.And François Hollande, seduced by the very uncertain promises of the two industrialists on the basis of a simple project hastily set up to torpedo the project of a CNES PPH launcher (two solid rocket base stages and a cryogenic stage), offered them the keys to Ariane 6. Airbus and Safran, now united in a joint subsidiary ArianeGroup, had also promised to develop and design a low-cost launcher that was due to be operational by 2020. The goal has been largely missed: the European heavy launcher is supposed to fly for the first time in 2024, three and a half years late.A decision at the beginning of November?Battered by competition from SpaceX, which is launching satellites like hotcakes (68 launches since the beginning of the year, compared to three for European space from French Guiana) and exhausted by the Covid-19 crisis and the repeated delays of Ariane 6, ArianeGroup succeeded in 2021 in convincing ESA Member States to grant it financial support for the operation of Ariane 6 estimated at around €140 million per year. Two years later, the European manufacturer is back at it again because of the hyperinflation that has been raging for two years.A few weeks before a space summit to be held on 7 November in Seville, he is in the process of negotiating a very clear reassessment of support for the operation of Ariane 6. It is asking ESA Member States for €350 million per year. That's an incredible 150% increase. "We do not want a non-decision in Seville," insists France. This aid would allow it to remain competitive in the commercial market in which SpaceX is extremely aggressive. Among other things, the American manufacturer is taking advantage of extremely generous orders from the Pentagon and NASA to lower its prices on the commercial market and sign a slew of contracts with private operators.ArianeGroup's request is not completely illegitimate, despite original sin. Because sovereign access to space has a cost that all countries with launchers afford with different public aid, including the United States by signing generous contracts for SpaceX, in particular. That's what Tom Enders and Jean-Paul Herteman, the bosses of Airbus and Safran respectively at the time, should have known when they got their hands on Ariane 6 in 2014. They showed a certain arrogance in believing that the industrialists knew how to manage these major programmes better than the public authorities.A request that makes you cringeThis reassessment of operating aid is causing a lot of criticism, especially in Germany. However, the Germans could seize this opportunity to make the French accept in return the principle of intra-European competition for the purchase of launch services. This would allow Berlin, which strongly supports its German NewSpace start-ups such as Isar Aerospace and HyImpulse Technologies, to create a competitor to Ariane 6 in the medium term. However, a launcher that has already struggled to break even due to the geographical return imposed by ESA.But taking the lead in the space sector, and more particularly in the field of launchers, has been a stated objective of Germany for several years. Finally, Italy, the third major European nation in space, which has developed the Avio family of launchers (Vega and then Vega-C), is also very interested in stronger operational support from ESA. Especially if France succeeds. The discussions between France, Germany and Italy are going to be tight, very tight. But each of them will have to remember above all that the best interest in this matter is Europe, a space power...
The following was published in a French newspaper today. It has been translated into English using whatever the built-in translation service for MS Edge is.QuoteSpace: Airbus and Safran want more public money to operate Ariane 6According to corroborating sources, ArianeGroup, owned by Airbus and Safran, is negotiating with the member states of the European Space Agency a very clear reassessment of support for the operation of Ariane 6 due to the consequences of inflation. The manufacturer is asking for €350 million per year, corresponding to an increase of ... 150%.Michel Cabirol08 Oct 2023, 5:00 pmA complete paradigm shift. In 2014, when they announced that they wanted to take control of the Ariane 6 program, Airbus and Safran proclaimed loud and clear that they did not need public aid for the operation of the future European heavy launcher, this is no longer the case. This is the original sin of the two industrialists, who in order to "privatize" Ariane 6 at all costs, have promised mountains and wonders to the Member States of the European Space Agency (ESA), in particular to France, which has always ensured European leadership in the field of launchers.And François Hollande, seduced by the very uncertain promises of the two industrialists on the basis of a simple project hastily set up to torpedo the project of a CNES PPH launcher (two solid rocket base stages and a cryogenic stage), offered them the keys to Ariane 6. Airbus and Safran, now united in a joint subsidiary ArianeGroup, had also promised to develop and design a low-cost launcher that was due to be operational by 2020. The goal has been largely missed: the European heavy launcher is supposed to fly for the first time in 2024, three and a half years late.<snip>
Space: Airbus and Safran want more public money to operate Ariane 6According to corroborating sources, ArianeGroup, owned by Airbus and Safran, is negotiating with the member states of the European Space Agency a very clear reassessment of support for the operation of Ariane 6 due to the consequences of inflation. The manufacturer is asking for €350 million per year, corresponding to an increase of ... 150%.Michel Cabirol08 Oct 2023, 5:00 pmA complete paradigm shift. In 2014, when they announced that they wanted to take control of the Ariane 6 program, Airbus and Safran proclaimed loud and clear that they did not need public aid for the operation of the future European heavy launcher, this is no longer the case. This is the original sin of the two industrialists, who in order to "privatize" Ariane 6 at all costs, have promised mountains and wonders to the Member States of the European Space Agency (ESA), in particular to France, which has always ensured European leadership in the field of launchers.And François Hollande, seduced by the very uncertain promises of the two industrialists on the basis of a simple project hastily set up to torpedo the project of a CNES PPH launcher (two solid rocket base stages and a cryogenic stage), offered them the keys to Ariane 6. Airbus and Safran, now united in a joint subsidiary ArianeGroup, had also promised to develop and design a low-cost launcher that was due to be operational by 2020. The goal has been largely missed: the European heavy launcher is supposed to fly for the first time in 2024, three and a half years late.<snip>
Note - Please add a link to the original newspaper article.
A clear NO to the increased support for Arianegroup. Their pis por performance should be punished not promoted.Do your job Arianegroup get Ariane 6 operational. Ariane 62 will cost probably 120mln and Ariane 64 150mln.Just do your job, get Ariane 6 operational and launch contracts will come your way.
QuoteSpace: Airbus and Safran want more public money to operate Ariane 6However, the Germans could seize this opportunity to make the French accept in return the principle of intra-European competition for the purchase of launch services. This would allow Berlin, which strongly supports its German NewSpace start-ups such as Isar Aerospace and HyImpulse Technologies, to create a competitor to Ariane 6 in the medium term.
Space: Airbus and Safran want more public money to operate Ariane 6However, the Germans could seize this opportunity to make the French accept in return the principle of intra-European competition for the purchase of launch services. This would allow Berlin, which strongly supports its German NewSpace start-ups such as Isar Aerospace and HyImpulse Technologies, to create a competitor to Ariane 6 in the medium term.
Quote from: Rik ISS-fan on 10/09/2023 04:56 pmA clear NO to the increased support for Arianegroup. Their pis por performance should be punished not promoted.Do your job Arianegroup get Ariane 6 operational. Ariane 62 will cost probably 120mln and Ariane 64 150mln.Just do your job, get Ariane 6 operational and launch contracts will come your way.If your cost estimations are correct (which I think they are) launch contracts won't come their way as easily, only governmental ones.
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/ariane-6-vers-un-premier-vol-en-avril-mai-2024-977533.html-ESA is aiming for a April-May launch windows of the first Ariane 6-Anomaly that delayed Long test fire is caused by an impermeability issues in the hydraulic systems of the Vulcan's TVC, Arianegroup expects a quick fix that should not affect the first launch's schedule-WDR in deteriorated conditions planned for October 24-25-Long test fire is planned for Late november, pending repairs of the Vulcain's nozzle.-First launch A6's fairing arriving in Kourou on November 3, its core stage and upper stage on December 10-Planned launch rate: 2 A6 in 2024, 6 in 2025, 8 in 2026, 10 in 2027; First 4 -2 of the 18 kuiper launches seem to have been shifted to Ariane 62 (instead of the previous 16 A64+ plus 2 A64)
Looks like we're on the final stretch. Not much can really go wrong since that point. 4 years behind the schedule but finally we're gonna see mighty Ariane 6 flying soon. And if you take into account 2 years of covid pandemic, the delay is not that bad at all.Whether the rocket is good or bad, a lot has been already said(...)
I just want to mention, that first time in 25 years, Europe managed to assemble a team of ingenieurs, who actually designed and build a big rocket. Many seem not notice significance of this.
The rocket is bad, already technologically obsolete and economically uncompetitive.(...)
Count me in.
<snip>-Planned launch rate: 2 A6 in 2024, 6 in 2025, 8 in 2026, 10 in 2027; First 4 will be Ariane 62-2 of the 18 kuiper launches seem to have been shifted to Ariane 62 (instead of the previous 16 A64+ plus 2 A64)
Quote from: TheKutKu on 10/11/2023 01:05 pm<snip>-Planned launch rate: 2 A6 in 2024, 6 in 2025, 8 in 2026, 10 in 2027; First 4 will be Ariane 62-2 of the 18 kuiper launches seem to have been shifted to Ariane 62 (instead of the previous 16 A64+ plus 2 A64)What will the second Ariane 6 launch be? A62 or A64? Payload?
