Author Topic: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine  (Read 1149040 times)

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #640 on: 04/20/2018 05:47 am »
Quote
Blue Origin CEO says next-gen BE-4 rocket engine meets technical requirements

BY ALAN BOYLE on April 19, 2018 at 3:30 pm

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — For years, there’s been a big question surrounding the next-generation BE-4 rocket engine that’s being built by Amazon billionaire Jeff Bezos’ Blue Origin space venture: Will it be good enough for United Launch Alliance, a crucial prospective customer?

Now Blue Origin CEO Bob Smith says the BE-4 has passed all of the technical tests required for ULA to sign onto a production contract.

https://www.geekwire.com/2018/blue-origin-ceo-says-next-gen-4-rocket-engine-meets-technical-requirements/

Online LouScheffer

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #641 on: 04/20/2018 10:13 am »
A few questions about the engine:

There seem to be at least 4 different materials, or at least surface finishes - dark grey (lox boost pump), medium grey (fuel valve), light grey (fuel manifold), and shiny.  A special material for the pre-burner, turbine, and pre-burner exhaust makes sense, since these need to resist hot oxygen gas.  Are the others all different materials, or just different finishes?  If different materials, why?

Nothing in the structure looks flexible.  I'd assume this means some sort of flexible line before the intake ports that we see, and the entire engine moves as a unit when gimballed.  Is this correct?

Offline woods170

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #642 on: 04/20/2018 10:51 am »
A few questions about the engine:

There seem to be at least 4 different materials, or at least surface finishes - dark grey (lox boost pump), medium grey (fuel valve), light grey (fuel manifold), and shiny.  A special material for the pre-burner, turbine, and pre-burner exhaust makes sense, since these need to resist hot oxygen gas.  Are the others all different materials, or just different finishes?  If different materials, why?

Nothing in the structure looks flexible.  I'd assume this means some sort of flexible line before the intake ports that we see, and the entire engine moves as a unit when gimballed.  Is this correct?

Yes. That's how it is mostly done with gimballing rocket engines.

Offline HMXHMX

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #643 on: 04/20/2018 11:34 am »
So I did have a few minutes to cobble together some captions.  In my haste I may have missed or mislabeled something, so corrections welcome.

Great job! Minor nit. The arrow for the LOX High Pressure Discharge in Slide 2 is out of place. I've lightened up the image so that you can see the details better.

So where is the LNG boost pump? Is it not needed?

Ah, thanks, fixed.

As for the LNG boost pump, like you I noted it wasn't there but don't know why.

Online LouScheffer

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #644 on: 04/20/2018 01:30 pm »
A few questions about the engine:

There seem to be at least 4 different materials, or at least surface finishes - dark grey (lox boost pump), medium grey (fuel valve), light grey (fuel manifold), and shiny.  A special material for the pre-burner, turbine, and pre-burner exhaust makes sense, since these need to resist hot oxygen gas.  Are the others all different materials, or just different finishes?  If different materials, why?

Nothing in the structure looks flexible.  I'd assume this means some sort of flexible line before the intake ports that we see, and the entire engine moves as a unit when gimballed.  Is this correct?

Yes. That's how it is mostly done with gimballing rocket engines.
At least some Russian engines work differently, I think.  Since they have one turbopump and several nozzles, and they want the nozzles to gimbal independently (for roll control, for example) the pump are fixed to the frame and the nozzles move.

Offline envy887

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #645 on: 04/20/2018 02:48 pm »
Quote
Blue Origin CEO says next-gen BE-4 rocket engine meets technical requirements

BY ALAN BOYLE on April 19, 2018 at 3:30 pm

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — For years, there’s been a big question surrounding the next-generation BE-4 rocket engine that’s being built by Amazon billionaire Jeff Bezos’ Blue Origin space venture: Will it be good enough for United Launch Alliance, a crucial prospective customer?

Now Blue Origin CEO Bob Smith says the BE-4 has passed all of the technical tests required for ULA to sign onto a production contract.

https://www.geekwire.com/2018/blue-origin-ceo-says-next-gen-4-rocket-engine-meets-technical-requirements/

So, they did a full-duration, full-pressure burn and got the required stability, thrust, and I_sp?

I would think those are the minimum technical requirements.

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #646 on: 04/20/2018 07:13 pm »
So I did have a few minutes to cobble together some captions.  In my haste I may have missed or mislabeled something, so corrections welcome.

Great job! Minor nit. The arrow for the LOX High Pressure Discharge in Slide 2 is out of place. I've lightened up the image so that you can see the details better.

So where is the LNG boost pump? Is it not needed?

Ah, thanks, fixed.

As for the LNG boost pump, like you I noted it wasn't there but don't know why.

What if what you pointed out at the PB injector isn't actually it, but is buried downstream that within the gray cast structure? That preburner is inline with the main TP shaft and the pressures at the main discharge doesn't make sense...

What if that jacket of cold LOX helps with something...

Hmm...

I'm thinking a kick pump is integrated into the inlet to the preburner assembly where you point to as the injector. The bolt patterns seem to indicate that there is a part bolted internally.
« Last Edit: 04/20/2018 09:57 pm by Davidthefat »

Offline HMXHMX

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #647 on: 04/20/2018 10:10 pm »
So I did have a few minutes to cobble together some captions.  In my haste I may have missed or mislabeled something, so corrections welcome.

Great job! Minor nit. The arrow for the LOX High Pressure Discharge in Slide 2 is out of place. I've lightened up the image so that you can see the details better.

So where is the LNG boost pump? Is it not needed?

Ah, thanks, fixed.

As for the LNG boost pump, like you I noted it wasn't there but don't know why.

What if what you pointed out at the PB injector isn't actually it, but is buried downstream that within the gray cast structure? That preburner is inline with the main TP shaft and the pressures at the main discharge doesn't make sense...

What if that jacket of cold LOX helps with something...

Hmm...

I'm thinking a kick pump is integrated into the inlet to the preburner assembly where you point to as the injector. The bolt patterns seem to indicate that there is a part bolted internally.

There is already a LOX boost pump labeled, so I don't see any need for one at the inlet of the PB.  The PB will have an injector, a short combustion chamber (operating at perhaps 700°F±100) and a turbine to drive the single-shaft main propellant pumps.  The apparent PB length is just sufficient to provide space for those items.  Sometimes this cycle of engine will have a fuel kick pump (as is the case for the NK-33) but I don't see one in the BE-4 layout.

Offline Davidthefat

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #648 on: 04/20/2018 10:48 pm »
So I did have a few minutes to cobble together some captions.  In my haste I may have missed or mislabeled something, so corrections welcome.

Great job! Minor nit. The arrow for the LOX High Pressure Discharge in Slide 2 is out of place. I've lightened up the image so that you can see the details better.

So where is the LNG boost pump? Is it not needed?

Ah, thanks, fixed.

As for the LNG boost pump, like you I noted it wasn't there but don't know why.

What if what you pointed out at the PB injector isn't actually it, but is buried downstream that within the gray cast structure? That preburner is inline with the main TP shaft and the pressures at the main discharge doesn't make sense...

What if that jacket of cold LOX helps with something...

Hmm...

I'm thinking a kick pump is integrated into the inlet to the preburner assembly where you point to as the injector. The bolt patterns seem to indicate that there is a part bolted internally.

There is already a LOX boost pump labeled, so I don't see any need for one at the inlet of the PB.  The PB will have an injector, a short combustion chamber (operating at perhaps 700°F±100) and a turbine to drive the single-shaft main propellant pumps.  The apparent PB length is just sufficient to provide space for those items.  Sometimes this cycle of engine will have a fuel kick pump (as is the case for the NK-33) but I don't see one in the BE-4 layout.

I was insinuating that the LOX may be used to keep the methane at a lower temp to help prevent cavitation at the kick pump. Might just be a coincidence in packaging I just threw that idea out there, but it will definitely help keep the walls of the combustor side of the preburner cooler.

You'll need a much higher fuel pressure at the PB than at the main chamber as stuff flows from high to low pressures. You need a good pressure difference between the above the turbine (which is kick pump pressure minus the delta p in the PB injector) to below (which is effectively manifold pressure to the main injector) The kick pump I was referring to being embedded in the PB assembly is the fuel kick pump. The fuel going to the regen chambers is main chamber pressure + main injector delta P + delta P in the cooling channels and pipes.

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #649 on: 04/21/2018 03:26 am »
Quote
Blue Origin CEO says next-gen BE-4 rocket engine meets technical requirements

BY ALAN BOYLE on April 19, 2018 at 3:30 pm

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — For years, there’s been a big question surrounding the next-generation BE-4 rocket engine that’s being built by Amazon billionaire Jeff Bezos’ Blue Origin space venture: Will it be good enough for United Launch Alliance, a crucial prospective customer?

Now Blue Origin CEO Bob Smith says the BE-4 has passed all of the technical tests required for ULA to sign onto a production contract.

https://www.geekwire.com/2018/blue-origin-ceo-says-next-gen-4-rocket-engine-meets-technical-requirements/

So, they did a full-duration, full-pressure burn and got the required stability, thrust, and I_sp?

I would think those are the minimum technical requirements.

And yet, the same article says the engine hasn't been run at full thrust or full mission duration. Go figure.

Offline HMXHMX

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #650 on: 04/21/2018 04:12 am »
So I did have a few minutes to cobble together some captions.  In my haste I may have missed or mislabeled something, so corrections welcome.

Great job! Minor nit. The arrow for the LOX High Pressure Discharge in Slide 2 is out of place. I've lightened up the image so that you can see the details better.

So where is the LNG boost pump? Is it not needed?

Ah, thanks, fixed.

As for the LNG boost pump, like you I noted it wasn't there but don't know why.

What if what you pointed out at the PB injector isn't actually it, but is buried downstream that within the gray cast structure? That preburner is inline with the main TP shaft and the pressures at the main discharge doesn't make sense...

What if that jacket of cold LOX helps with something...

Hmm...

I'm thinking a kick pump is integrated into the inlet to the preburner assembly where you point to as the injector. The bolt patterns seem to indicate that there is a part bolted internally.

There is already a LOX boost pump labeled, so I don't see any need for one at the inlet of the PB.  The PB will have an injector, a short combustion chamber (operating at perhaps 700°F±100) and a turbine to drive the single-shaft main propellant pumps.  The apparent PB length is just sufficient to provide space for those items.  Sometimes this cycle of engine will have a fuel kick pump (as is the case for the NK-33) but I don't see one in the BE-4 layout.

I was insinuating that the LOX may be used to keep the methane at a lower temp to help prevent cavitation at the kick pump. Might just be a coincidence in packaging I just threw that idea out there, but it will definitely help keep the walls of the combustor side of the preburner cooler.

You'll need a much higher fuel pressure at the PB than at the main chamber as stuff flows from high to low pressures. You need a good pressure difference between the above the turbine (which is kick pump pressure minus the delta p in the PB injector) to below (which is effectively manifold pressure to the main injector) The kick pump I was referring to being embedded in the PB assembly is the fuel kick pump. The fuel going to the regen chambers is main chamber pressure + main injector delta P + delta P in the cooling channels and pipes.

I guess I'm a bit dubious about the "LOX cools LNG" idea but maybe Blue will "open up" about the design at some point and settle the question.  As for needing a fuel kick pump, that pump may be necessary in a more-or-less conventional injector (such as impinging streams or coaxial post) but if they use a pintle in the preburner – as was proposed for the TR-107 – then the fuel pressure drop is low (half that of the LOX pressure drop, typically).  The penalty for omitting the kick pump is that power to the whole TPA increases by perhaps 10-15%.  In that case, one main set of pumps at perhaps 2.5x discharge delta-p over main chamber Pc should suffice, taking into account turbine losses. The preburner would then operate at about 2x main chamber Pc.

We lack a lot of necessary information, such as planned depth of throttle, and I'm not sure what the nominal Pc is – anyone know?

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #651 on: 04/21/2018 06:44 am »
We lack a lot of necessary information, such as planned depth of throttle, and I'm not sure what the nominal Pc is – anyone know?

13.4 MPa.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/behind-the-curtain-ars-goes-inside-blue-origins-secretive-rocket-factory/
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #652 on: 04/25/2018 03:58 pm »
A few questions about the engine:

There seem to be at least 4 different materials, or at least surface finishes - dark grey (lox boost pump), medium grey (fuel valve), light grey (fuel manifold), and shiny.  A special material for the pre-burner, turbine, and pre-burner exhaust makes sense, since these need to resist hot oxygen gas.  Are the others all different materials, or just different finishes?  If different materials, why?



You can't infer material type from appearance.  Machining or polishing can cause shiny metal appearance, a sandblasted finish would have the medium to light grey appearance.  The dark grey could be an after heat treated appearance without any further finishing done to it such as sandblasting.

The appearances of the various components could be due to different part requirements/specifications of individual parts along with different manufactures standard practices for finishing of parts.
« Last Edit: 04/25/2018 04:00 pm by thammond »

Offline woods170

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #653 on: 04/26/2018 06:58 am »
A few questions about the engine:

There seem to be at least 4 different materials, or at least surface finishes - dark grey (lox boost pump), medium grey (fuel valve), light grey (fuel manifold), and shiny.  A special material for the pre-burner, turbine, and pre-burner exhaust makes sense, since these need to resist hot oxygen gas.  Are the others all different materials, or just different finishes?  If different materials, why?



You can't infer material type from appearance.  Machining or polishing can cause shiny metal appearance, a sandblasted finish would have the medium to light grey appearance.  The dark grey could be an after heat treated appearance without any further finishing done to it such as sandblasting.

The appearances of the various components could be due to different part requirements/specifications of individual parts along with different manufactures standard practices for finishing of parts.

Excellent post. Scale-modelers in particular are very aware of your fine summary.

Offline AncientU

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #654 on: 05/22/2018 04:21 pm »
Still* at 70%, 114s:
Quote
Ariane Cornell, Blue Origin: key for us in the next few months is continued BE-4 engine testing. Up to 70% thrust, 114-sec duration. #SpaceTechExpo
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/998961252184543233

* 65%, 114s reported 3/12/18
« Last Edit: 05/22/2018 04:29 pm by AncientU »
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Offline Lars-J

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #655 on: 05/22/2018 04:54 pm »
Still* at 70%, 114s:
Quote
Ariane Cornell, Blue Origin: key for us in the next few months is continued BE-4 engine testing. Up to 70% thrust, 114-sec duration. #SpaceTechExpo
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/998961252184543233

* 65%, 114s reported 3/12/18

They *still* haven't passed 70% thrust? They might be taking their "slow and steady" approach too far here. Or did the test stand destruction a while back rattle them that deeply?
« Last Edit: 05/22/2018 08:26 pm by Lars-J »

Offline AncientU

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #656 on: 05/22/2018 08:10 pm »
Soon.
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
-- SpaceX friend of mlindner

Offline johnfwhitesell

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #657 on: 05/23/2018 01:46 pm »
Well this explains the mystery of why there is still no decision on Vulcan.  The competition is a paper engine and the race is still going...

Offline Davidthefat

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #658 on: 05/23/2018 02:48 pm »
They might be pump head limited right now and have been waiting for a new iteration of the powerpack to be fabricated while still testing with the older revision.
« Last Edit: 05/24/2018 08:45 pm by Davidthefat »

Online LouScheffer

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #659 on: 05/25/2018 02:04 pm »
They might be pump head limited right now and have been waiting for a new iteration of the powerpack to be fabricated while still testing with the older revision.
Or perhaps testing revealed that some part X of the engine did not have the margins they'd like, so they can only test to 70% while they frantically (or graditum-ly) redesign and fabricate a new and better part X.

 

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