Author Topic: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS  (Read 72681 times)

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #40 on: 03/23/2018 08:10 pm »
So the FY 2018 budget for the US has in the NASA section $350mn for a second Mobile Launcher. Also the bill passed the house and is likely to pass the Senate and go to the president as written in the next few days. What does this mean for launch cadence and the existing ML?

Loren Grush has written this up, including likely reasons why this unrequested funding was included and potential launch date impact

Quote
Congress is giving NASA more money than it requested to build a second launch platform
What the SLS wants, the SLS gets
By Loren Grush on March 23, 2018 4:55 pm

Today, Trump signed into law a massive $1.3 trillion spending bill that will fund the federal government through the rest of fiscal year 2018, and the deal is quite generous to NASA. Practically all of NASA’s programs get a funding boost, and the space agency even gets money that it didn’t ask for — notably, the funds needed to build a second launch platform for its next big rocket.

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2018/3/23/17153408/nasa-omnibus-bill-federal-budget-second-mobile-launcher
« Last Edit: 03/23/2018 08:10 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline rayleighscatter

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #41 on: 03/23/2018 08:51 pm »
In theory, would it be economical to reuse the arms on the current tower or would complete clean sheet be cheaper? I suppose it would mostly depend on how they would be compatible with a new tower vs how they were designed for a modified tower.

Offline Kansan52

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #42 on: 03/23/2018 10:06 pm »
Since the current ML has cost more than a half billion, why do they think they can do a second a 1/3 of a billion?

Offline IanThePineapple

Since the current ML has cost more than a half billion, why do they think they can do a second a 1/3 of a billion?

They already have the designs and experience from building the first one (Experience meaning knowing what took longer than expected, what problems they got by doing one thing, etc.)

Online redliox

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #44 on: 03/23/2018 11:01 pm »
So the FY 2018 budget for the US has in the NASA section $350mn for a second Mobile Launcher. Also the bill passed the house and is likely to pass the Senate and go to the president as written in the next few days. What does this mean for launch cadence and the existing ML?

Loren Grush has written this up, including likely reasons why this unrequested funding was included and potential launch date impact

Quote
Congress is giving NASA more money than it requested to build a second launch platform
What the SLS wants, the SLS gets
By Loren Grush on March 23, 2018 4:55 pm

Today, Trump signed into law a massive $1.3 trillion spending bill that will fund the federal government through the rest of fiscal year 2018, and the deal is quite generous to NASA. Practically all of NASA’s programs get a funding boost, and the space agency even gets money that it didn’t ask for — notably, the funds needed to build a second launch platform for its next big rocket.

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2018/3/23/17153408/nasa-omnibus-bill-federal-budget-second-mobile-launcher

Does this mean the 2nd launcher is at least getting funded now?  Constructed and made reality another story of course, but at least 'officially' funded?  :o
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Offline rayleighscatter

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #45 on: 03/23/2018 11:02 pm »
Since the current ML has cost more than a half billion, why do they think they can do a second a 1/3 of a billion?
The Ares tower was built originally for 250M.


Does this mean the 2nd launcher is at least getting funded now?  Constructed and made reality another story of course, but at least 'officially' funded?  :o

Yes. The second launch tower was specifically listed in the omnibus bill that was signed today. The Omnibus bill also has language which prohibits the executive department from disregarding specified programs so it will have to be done, so long as another bill doesn't specifically strike it.
« Last Edit: 03/23/2018 11:18 pm by rayleighscatter »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #46 on: 03/24/2018 01:01 am »
Since the current ML has cost more than a half billion, why do they think they can do a second a 1/3 of a billion?

They already have the designs and experience from building the first one (Experience meaning knowing what took longer than expected, what problems they got by doing one thing, etc.)
If they build clean sheet, ML-2 it will not have all of the costly and mass increasing work arounds to make ML-1 useable by SLS. The only way to make ML-1 lighter would have been to dismantle the LUT itself and replace it. All of the systems rooms and cable trays were on levels that worked perfectly with Ares-I but had to be jerry rigged with additional cable trays and piping so that systems rooms could reach the new umbilical locations which are at completely different levels than Ares-I.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #47 on: 03/24/2018 01:35 am »
Well some people at NASA are going to be very unhappy with the added/forced funding for a 2nd tower. Why? Because the with the “3yr gap to modify tower” excuse out of the way, people will discover that there are other long poles in the schedule that will receive more scrutiny.

Offline IanThePineapple

Would it be possible/make sense to redo an old Shuttle MLP for SLS, basically reverting it back to a Saturn V-like style? They're just sitting there, and it might save some time and money to start from that blank template.

Just asking out of curiosity
« Last Edit: 03/24/2018 01:44 am by IanThePineapple »

Online catdlr

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #49 on: 03/24/2018 01:41 am »
Quote
This week in space news, the last of the big swing arm umbilicals is installed on the mobile launcher

Inside KSC! for March 23, 2018


NASAKennedy
Published on Mar 23, 2018





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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #50 on: 03/24/2018 07:33 am »
Well some people at NASA are going to be very unhappy with the added/forced funding for a 2nd tower. Why? Because the with the “3yr gap to modify tower” excuse out of the way, people will discover that there are other long poles in the schedule that will receive more scrutiny.

A way to reduce that gap is to fly crew on another Block I. That will cost an additional $150M to crew rate the iCPS. I think that would be much safer than crew on the first flight of Block IB. The first flight of Block IB can then be uncrewed.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline rayleighscatter

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #51 on: 03/24/2018 11:03 am »
Would it be possible/make sense to redo an old Shuttle MLP for SLS, basically reverting it back to a Saturn V-like style? They're just sitting there, and it might save some time and money to start from that blank template.

Just asking out of curiosity

That's what the current Ares/SLS tower is (it was built on MLP-1), and almost certainly another MLP would be used for the base. Unless I'm misunderstanding the question.

Offline ncb1397

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #52 on: 03/24/2018 04:13 pm »
Would it be possible/make sense to redo an old Shuttle MLP for SLS, basically reverting it back to a Saturn V-like style? They're just sitting there, and it might save some time and money to start from that blank template.

Just asking out of curiosity

That's what the current Ares/SLS tower is (it was built on MLP-1), and almost certainly another MLP would be used for the base. Unless I'm misunderstanding the question.

The Ares-1X test was done on a shuttle MLP, but the operational Ares-1 was to use a completely new launch platform  that was then converted to SLS. That is my understanding. I would be glad to read something that is different though.

Offline Hog

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #53 on: 03/24/2018 06:03 pm »
Would it be possible/make sense to redo an old Shuttle MLP for SLS, basically reverting it back to a Saturn V-like style? They're just sitting there, and it might save some time and money to start from that blank template.

Just asking out of curiosity

That's what the current Ares/SLS tower is (it was built on MLP-1), and almost certainly another MLP would be used for the base. Unless I'm misunderstanding the question.
The current SLS ML is a new build ML, the STS MLP's, one of which was modified for Ares-1X(MLP-1 aka ML-3) are safed and in storage.
Using any of the STS MLP's would be even more overweight than the lighter new build ML-1 being used for EM-1.
The STS MLP's weight about 8.2 million lbs., while the new build ML-1 weighs in at 9.5 million lbs. with the massive 345 ft Launch Umbilical Tower(LUT) atop it.(as of Feb 13, 2013)
Paul

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #54 on: 03/24/2018 06:59 pm »
Would it be possible/make sense to redo an old Shuttle MLP for SLS, basically reverting it back to a Saturn V-like style? They're just sitting there, and it might save some time and money to start from that blank template.

Just asking out of curiosity
That was to be done for Ares-V but were considered to heavy for the current crawlers. The Crawler upgrades were for Ares-I ML with new crawlers built for the added mass of Ares-V on MLP's with their LUT's rebuilt. The SRB was the mass factor the plan established in the Constellation PDR and EIS documentation (I have a paper copy of the FEIS and EA).

Offline GWH

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #55 on: 03/27/2018 03:17 pm »
A way to reduce that gap is to fly crew on another Block I. That will cost an additional $150M to crew rate the iCPS. I think that would be much safer than crew on the first flight of Block IB. The first flight of Block IB can then be uncrewed.

What does this second launcher mean in the long term? Does block 1 become the sole launch vehicle of manned missions, while block 1B/2 are dedicated to cargo.  A simplified launcher without a crew access arm would be cheaper, offsetting the cost of manrating ICPS.

Of course things have changed - the delta IV stage ICPS is built off is going away, and Centaur V planned for Vulcan will need to be man rated from the start. Dimensionally the 2 stages should be pretty close. Could a solution be found there?

Offline IanThePineapple

A way to reduce that gap is to fly crew on another Block I. That will cost an additional $150M to crew rate the iCPS. I think that would be much safer than crew on the first flight of Block IB. The first flight of Block IB can then be uncrewed.

What does this second launcher mean in the long term? Does block 1 become the sole launch vehicle of manned missions, while block 1B/2 are dedicated to cargo.  A simplified launcher without a crew access arm would be cheaper, offsetting the cost of manrating ICPS.

Of course things have changed - the delta IV stage ICPS is built off is going away, and Centaur V planned for Vulcan will need to be man rated from the start. Dimensionally the 2 stages should be pretty close. Could a solution be found there?

They could build a bunch of ICPS stages before the assembly lines shut down, like what was done with the Saturn IB.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #57 on: 03/27/2018 08:08 pm »
A way to reduce that gap is to fly crew on another Block I. That will cost an additional $150M to crew rate the iCPS. I think that would be much safer than crew on the first flight of Block IB. The first flight of Block IB can then be uncrewed.

What does this second launcher mean in the long term? Does block 1 become the sole launch vehicle of manned missions, while block 1B/2 are dedicated to cargo.  A simplified launcher without a crew access arm would be cheaper, offsetting the cost of manrating ICPS.

Of course things have changed - the delta IV stage ICPS is built off is going away, and Centaur V planned for Vulcan will need to be man rated from the start. Dimensionally the 2 stages should be pretty close. Could a solution be found there?

They could build a bunch of ICPS stages before the assembly lines shut down, like what was done with the Saturn IB.
Q: What does this second launcher mean in the long term? Does block 1 become the sole launch vehicle of manned missions, while block 1B/2 are dedicated to cargo.  A simplified launcher without a crew access arm would be cheaper, offsetting the cost of manrating ICPS.
A: SLS ML-1 will ultimately support Block-1B/2 Cargo only and SLS ML-2 will ultimately support all Block-1B/2 payload configurations with priority to crew configuration.

Q: Of course things have changed - the delta IV stage ICPS is built off is going away, and Centaur V planned for Vulcan will need to be man rated from the start. Dimensionally the 2 stages should be pretty close. Could a solution be found there?
A: Manufacture and tooling for ICPS could be shifted to MAF if deemed necessary.

Offline Darkseraph

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #58 on: 04/06/2018 11:10 am »
Is it possible MLS-1 will be converted after EM-1 in addition to constructing MLS-2 for EM-2, with the program eventually having two Block 1B Mobile Launch Systems available? That would give the program more flexibility. especially in the case of a launch failure on the pad and avoid a gap if one of the MLS's needs to be further upgraded to being Block 2 capable.
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Preparing the Mobile Launcher to be armed and ready for SLS
« Reply #59 on: 04/07/2018 06:56 am »
Is it possible MLS-1 will be converted after EM-1 in addition to constructing MLS-2 for EM-2, with the program eventually having two Block 1B Mobile Launch Systems available?

I believe that's the plan. MLS-1 will be converted to cargo only launches, which probably require less changes than for a crewed pad, while MLS-2 will be used for crewed missions.
« Last Edit: 04/07/2018 06:56 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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