Is this a guess, or a fact? Because based on Boeings behaviors on this contract it would be likely they would not be taking responsibility for manufacturing improvements, but I would state such musings as guesses, not facts, until we saw the contract.
Quote from: JHošek on 05/26/2021 10:16 amYes, NASA pays for this optimization.Why? Honestly.Edit: To make it more clear, shouldn't it be in Boeing's own interest to pay for the optimization?
Yes, NASA pays for this optimization.
The big question is who is paying for the optimization? If NASA had negotiated a Firm Fixed Price contract with Boeing for the core stage, then Boeing would be paying for the optimization and pocketing the profit from their efforts. Which is normal. But Boeing has been proposing a form of Cost Plus contract, which makes me think that NASA (i.e. the U.S. Taxpayer) is footing some (or all) of this optimization effort.Which is why we need a Firm Fixed Price contract for building the core stage and EUS, to incentive Boeing and to reduce the burden on the taxpayer.
Quote from: Coastal Ron on 05/25/2021 11:58 pmThe big question is who is paying for the optimization? If NASA had negotiated a Firm Fixed Price contract with Boeing for the core stage, then Boeing would be paying for the optimization and pocketing the profit from their efforts. Which is normal. But Boeing has been proposing a form of Cost Plus contract, which makes me think that NASA (i.e. the U.S. Taxpayer) is footing some (or all) of this optimization effort.Which is why we need a Firm Fixed Price contract for building the core stage and EUS, to incentive Boeing and to reduce the burden on the taxpayer.Boeing can recommend a CP contract type during the RFI stage, but the government alone decides which type of contract to use (CP, FFP, etc) when the RFP is released.
Considering how long this thing has been getting built and the, ahem, low rate of production, there is no feasible way Boeing could make a profit under anything but a cost plus contract.
This is how Boeing keeps that CP contract for ~10 years without delivering a single, completed rocket. Don't blame Boeing for everything, there's plenty to go around...
In a normal world, sure. But the SLS contract is not a normal contract since Congress pretty much mandated that Boeing would get the contract, which left the U.S. Government with less negotiating power.
I've worked for government contractors, so I know some of the games that are played. And Boeing is not an innocent here, not when they are getting HUGE awards for doing things that don't make the SLS get done faster.
Quote from: Coastal Ron on 05/26/2021 07:03 pmIn a normal world, sure. But the SLS contract is not a normal contract since Congress pretty much mandated that Boeing would get the contract, which left the U.S. Government with less negotiating power.Doesn't matter that Congress essentially mandated that Boeing gets the work - the gov't still decides what type of contract it is. And yes, everything can be done with FFP as well as with CP, but the gov't chose CP. I'm sure Boeing sent a lobbyist to help, but NASA made that decision.
...SLS is TOO EFF'IN LARGE because it's been going on for TOO EFF'IN LONG!
Overall, I think we agree on all of this. The production contract that Boeing received was crap, and they're performing slowly. But they aren't solely to blame for that, NASA and Congress have to also be held accountable. Boeing is playing the hand they've been dealt, and they're playing it well. The gov't is doing it's part by allowing the game. These types of issues will get resolved (well, improved) when the gov't's accounting and contracting practices modernize away from 1952 contract law to something more modern - but that's a whole different discussion!
Quote from: VaBlue on 05/26/2021 11:00 pmQuote from: Coastal Ron on 05/26/2021 07:03 pmIn a normal world, sure. But the SLS contract is not a normal contract since Congress pretty much mandated that Boeing would get the contract, which left the U.S. Government with less negotiating power.Doesn't matter that Congress essentially mandated that Boeing gets the work - the gov't still decides what type of contract it is. And yes, everything can be done with FFP as well as with CP, but the gov't chose CP. I'm sure Boeing sent a lobbyist to help, but NASA made that decision.I think this is one of those "glass half full vs half empty" discussions, so I'll just stick with my "half empty" view... Quote...SLS is TOO EFF'IN LARGE because it's been going on for TOO EFF'IN LONG!Yea verily!QuoteOverall, I think we agree on all of this. The production contract that Boeing received was crap, and they're performing slowly. But they aren't solely to blame for that, NASA and Congress have to also be held accountable. Boeing is playing the hand they've been dealt, and they're playing it well. The gov't is doing it's part by allowing the game. These types of issues will get resolved (well, improved) when the gov't's accounting and contracting practices modernize away from 1952 contract law to something more modern - but that's a whole different discussion!Overall, yes, though I have different views as to how mischievous Boeing has been on the contract, specifically because of the position they are in regarding being effectively designated by Congress to be the prime contractor.
Quote from: Coastal Ron on 05/27/2021 12:44 amOverall, yes, though I have different views as to how mischievous Boeing has been on the contract, specifically because of the position they are in regarding being effectively designated by Congress to be the prime contractor.They weren't. The core stage could have been done by anyone at program start.
Overall, yes, though I have different views as to how mischievous Boeing has been on the contract, specifically because of the position they are in regarding being effectively designated by Congress to be the prime contractor.
Boeing had a contract for an upper stage under Cosntellation and Congress said they should modify contracts if practicable.
NASA could have given ULA ICPS, Boeing EUS (an extension of their Ares contract) and SpaceX/Blue Origin/Boeing/Lockheed the core stage.
They chose Boeing. They also chose Boeing for the Ares upper stage, Commercial Crew, ISS, EUS. etc....so not at all surprising and not at all out of character.