Author Topic: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3  (Read 789154 times)

Offline whitelancer64

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #380 on: 11/05/2018 09:05 pm »
What surprises me is that there are no hand or arm brackets/braces to steady movements during heavy vibrations or high g movements. Trying to touch a spot on a shaking screen will not be easy.

They should not have to make any inputs during launch.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Online DigitalMan

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1679
  • Liked: 1178
  • Likes Given: 76
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #381 on: 11/05/2018 09:11 pm »
Saw quite a few instances of the familiar touchscreen dance:
"I touch the thing" nothing happens "I touch the thing" nothing happens "I TOUCH THE THING" and finally the thing happens. Feels like ordering McDonalds or buying train tickets. Not encouraging :-/

I don't see that at all.  What I see is a second or more of LAG.  Hopefully they can fix that.

My niece also tends to expect instant response and taps some apps to death.
« Last Edit: 11/05/2018 09:12 pm by DigitalMan »

Offline clongton

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12053
  • Connecticut
    • Direct Launcher
  • Liked: 7348
  • Likes Given: 3749
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #382 on: 11/05/2018 09:25 pm »
What surprises me is that there are no hand or arm brackets/braces to steady movements during heavy vibrations or high g movements. Trying to touch a spot on a shaking screen will not be easy.

Won't be necessary. The last I knew the screens would be in launch mode during launch, displaying *everything* the crew would need access to during that phase of flight.  No crew interaction would be required because the launch is completely automated and the avionics would be reacting to any problem before a crewmember would even understand that a problem existed. It would be the same during EDL. After orbital insertion there wouldn't be any vibrations and the crew would be in zero-g; no arm braces needed. In fact they would be in the way.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline ncb1397

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3497
  • Liked: 2310
  • Likes Given: 29
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #383 on: 11/05/2018 10:21 pm »
Saw quite a few instances of the familiar touchscreen dance:
"I touch the thing" nothing happens "I touch the thing" nothing happens "I TOUCH THE THING" and finally the thing happens. Feels like ordering McDonalds or buying train tickets. Not encouraging :-/

I don't see that at all.  What I see is a second or more of LAG.  Hopefully they can fix that.

My niece also tends to expect instant response and taps some apps to death.

It definitely happens at :48 in the video. Bob Behnken touches a button at the bottom of the screen and a circle comes up indicating an input was registered, but the center of the circle looks slightly off from where the bounds of the button input would be. He then touches it  (or at least attempts to touch it) a second time, with no circle indicating no input was detected. The third time, the circle comes up and the screen changes.
« Last Edit: 11/05/2018 10:23 pm by ncb1397 »

Offline jak Kennedy

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 261
  • Liked: 134
  • Likes Given: 743
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #384 on: 11/05/2018 10:44 pm »
What surprises me is that there are no hand or arm brackets/braces to steady movements during heavy vibrations or high g movements. Trying to touch a spot on a shaking screen will not be easy.

In watching the Soyuz flights, they seem pretty smooth in flight. Do we know if Falcon 9 will be a rougher ride?

I was thinking more during abnormal conditions. Not abort as that should be automatic but maybe something along the lines of when Gemini had a thruster  locked on.
... the way that we will ratchet up our species, is to take the best and to spread it around everybody, so that everybody grows up with better things. - Steve Jobs

Offline rcoppola

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • USA
  • Liked: 1967
  • Likes Given: 970
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #385 on: 11/05/2018 10:59 pm »
That can't be fully optimized hardware/software. The action delays after screen taps are suboptimal at best. I honestly don't like the UI design at all either. With that glass canvas they have, knowing people will be also be wearing gloves, there's no need to have your press targets that small or at times spaced so close together. But hey, what do I know...

*Also, for the love of all that is good in this world, someone please re-edit that video with a better music track.

Sail the oceans of space and set foot upon new lands!
http://www.stormsurgemedia.com

Offline clongton

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12053
  • Connecticut
    • Direct Launcher
  • Liked: 7348
  • Likes Given: 3749
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #386 on: 11/05/2018 11:11 pm »
*Also, for the love of all that is good in this world, someone please re-edit that video with a better music track.

Why is there any stupid music at all? Either live voice, voice-over or silence, please!
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #387 on: 11/05/2018 11:30 pm »
I guess you're supposed to use a stylus pen for confirmed input recognition... Reminds me of grocery line screen issues... ??? Now where did that float off too...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline ThereIWas3

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 948
  • Liked: 500
  • Likes Given: 338
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #388 on: 11/05/2018 11:45 pm »
And on Soyuz the commander uses a stick to push buttons.  There must be some practical reason for that which Apollo never needed.  I do not think a stick would work with touch panels.

Offline flyright

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 495
  • Denver, Colorado
  • Liked: 716
  • Likes Given: 1882
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #389 on: 11/05/2018 11:57 pm »
And on Soyuz the commander uses a stick to push buttons.  There must be some practical reason for that which Apollo never needed.  I do not think a stick would work with touch panels.

On Soyuz the commander cannot easily reach the buttons, thus the stick.
A stick would work with touch screens if it had the right kind of tip on it.

Offline Comga

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Liked: 4572
  • Likes Given: 5136
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #390 on: 11/06/2018 05:32 am »
*Also, for the love of all that is good in this world, someone please re-edit that video with a better music track.

Why is there any stupid music at all? Either live voice, voice-over or silence, please!
That’s what your mute button is for.
And mine
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline woods170

  • IRAS fan
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12096
  • IRAS fan
  • The Netherlands
  • Liked: 18202
  • Likes Given: 12162
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #391 on: 11/06/2018 07:23 am »
What surprises me is that there are no hand or arm brackets/braces to steady movements during heavy vibrations or high g movements. Trying to touch a spot on a shaking screen will not be easy.

Two things:

- Previous spacecraft (such as shuttle) didn't have them, because they weren't needed. Crew Dragon is no different.
- The only control the crew would possibly need to use during the ascent phase, is the abort handle to initiate a manual abort.

Consider this: if Cargo Dragon requires NO manual intervention or manual input to successfully get into orbit, than why should Crew Dragon be any different?

The crew interfacing with the touch screen happen mostly in-orbit, not during launch.
Or in other words: "stick-and-rudder" control of the spacecraft is mostly a thing of the past. Computers do most, if not all, of the flying these days.
Crew on Crew Dragon really aren't crew. They are passengers mostly. The same applies to Starliner.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2018 07:53 am by woods170 »

Offline woods170

  • IRAS fan
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12096
  • IRAS fan
  • The Netherlands
  • Liked: 18202
  • Likes Given: 12162
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #392 on: 11/06/2018 07:47 am »
What surprises me is that there are no hand or arm brackets/braces to steady movements during heavy vibrations or high g movements. Trying to touch a spot on a shaking screen will not be easy.

In watching the Soyuz flights, they seem pretty smooth in flight. Do we know if Falcon 9 will be a rougher ride?

I was thinking more during abnormal conditions. Not abort as that should be automatic but maybe something along the lines of when Gemini had a thruster  locked on.

That particular mission (Gemini 8 ) could be salvaged only because Gemine had TWO completely separate RCS systems. The primary one was mounted on the service module and is the one that had a short in a roll thruster.
The secondary one was mounted on the actual capsule and was intented for positioning the capsule for reentry AFTER the service module had been jettisoned.
What Neil Armstrong did was to completely shut down the primary RCS system and use the secondary RCS system to undo the tumbling.

Now here is the thing: Crew Dragon has two fully redundant sets of primary RCS with automatic fault detection. The minute one sets starts acting erratically, the other set takes over. No human intervention required. Let alone the spacecraft getting into anything remotely resembling a Gemini 8 scenario.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2018 07:48 am by woods170 »

Offline Semmel

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2178
  • Germany
  • Liked: 2433
  • Likes Given: 11916
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #393 on: 11/06/2018 08:12 am »
Now here is the thing: Crew Dragon has two fully redundant sets of primary RCS with automatic fault detection.

THATS why it has so many RCS ports. I was wondering about that, seemed excessive. Thank you!

Online oiorionsbelt

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1766
  • Liked: 1190
  • Likes Given: 2685
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #394 on: 11/06/2018 05:58 pm »
The fretting over perceived ineptitude of SpaceX to have figured out the Dragon UI is below this sites usual standard. IMO.

Offline Verio Fryar

  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 54
  • Liked: 18
  • Likes Given: 350
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #395 on: 11/06/2018 07:02 pm »
The fretting over perceived ineptitude of SpaceX to have figured out the Dragon UI is below this sites usual standard. IMO.
I don't know if the UI of the simulator in the video is representative, but the latency of the screen is way too high.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk


Offline Lars-J

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6809
  • California
  • Liked: 8485
  • Likes Given: 5384
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #396 on: 11/06/2018 07:06 pm »
The fretting over perceived ineptitude of SpaceX to have figured out the Dragon UI is below this sites usual standard. IMO.

Indeed. [see image below, replace 'radiation' with 'UI responsiveness']

I don't know if the UI of the simulator in the video is representative, but the latency of the screen is way too high.

I'm glad you told them.  ;)
« Last Edit: 11/06/2018 07:08 pm by Lars-J »

Offline Nomadd

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8840
  • Lower 48
  • Liked: 60431
  • Likes Given: 1305
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #397 on: 11/06/2018 07:15 pm »
The fretting over perceived ineptitude of SpaceX to have figured out the Dragon UI is below this sites usual standard. IMO.
SpaceX and related companies have made a few pretty dumb mistakes. Not the least, putting large resources to high tech solutions where a trained squirrel monkey could have handled the job more efficiently. No person or company that's ever existed is or should be immune from criticism of the way they're trying to do things. A whole lot of people in this place have made livings out of identifying and fixing problems caused by beyond reproach experts, and it's one of the best aspects of this asylum.
 Critisizing people solely because they dare question the experts is cheap and definitely below this sites standards.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2018 07:16 pm by Nomadd »
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline Wudizzle

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 158
  • Liked: 328
  • Likes Given: 330
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #398 on: 11/06/2018 07:25 pm »
In my opinion there is a difference between concern trolling that touchscreens are a bad idea when you hear about a proposed touchscreen implementation, and being concerned about a >500ms lag in touchscreen response time when the implemented hardware, running the implemented software, is being operated by the eventual end-user, in the implemented space suit, in a video approved for release by the company.

Offline vt_hokie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
  • Hazlet, NJ
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 436
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #399 on: 11/06/2018 10:05 pm »
I just hope that music soundtrack is indicative of what's actually going to be playing inside the spacecraft. :)

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1