Author Topic: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2  (Read 37679 times)

Online Chris Bergin

Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« on: 11/24/2023 10:02 pm »
Second thread after the first one ran to a billion posts. Related as this tech could be used on deep space missions/planets.

Thread 1:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42143.0

FST edit to add:

This thread covers TBC’s tunnelling tech, progress and potential off-world use.

It is not a thread for discussing the world’s mass transit systems, urban planning or any other related topics.
« Last Edit: 11/28/2023 08:39 am by FutureSpaceTourist »
Support NSF via L2 -- Help improve NSF -- Site Rules/Feedback/Updates
**Not a L2 member? Whitelist this forum in your adblocker to support the site and ensure full functionality.**

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 610
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #1 on: 11/24/2023 10:50 pm »
Thanx Chris.

Has anyone seen or heard anything about any TBC/SpaceX work on Mars related boring machines ?

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #2 on: 11/26/2023 02:56 pm »
So this afternoon, Heathrow to the BnB, 16 mile distance, but over an hour and a half by Tube.  Walk a bunch of tunnels to catch the Picadili line (lugging luggage of course) then 30 minutes to Earl's court, super crowded car, magnificent views of graffiti and piss, change over (more stairs), wait, another line for 20 minutes (less crowded but wet and muddy), then a 15 minute walk across the neighborhood since they can't route the tube to every house now can they.

That's not a solution.  I hate California rush hour as much as the next guy, and recognize the environmental impact, but public transport systems suck, even the good ones, and I don't care if steel wheels are more efficient than tires, this is just no way to live.

TBC is the only viable idea out there to give you the benefits of cars, but avoid the infrastructure limitations of roads.

... But yes, Mars. 

Some criticism towards the Las Vegas project is that it uses human drivers and fully.captive cars, but what it does rely on is cheap tunnel boring.  Which is exactly what's important for Mars.

The capability of a fully electric, self starting boring machine on Mars is so far beyond normal mission plans.

Even a 1 mile tunnel, just the first mile..
« Last Edit: 11/26/2023 04:24 pm by meekGee »
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 610
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #3 on: 11/27/2023 07:08 am »
IMHO.   I don’t see the need for a full TBM on Mars for quite a long time. Tunnels for transportation purposes won’t be needed until the settlement in mid Ius Chasma wants a link to the one in mid Tithonium without having to drive right around.

The ability to bore a cylindrical hole into a rock face would be very useful in the short term for the purpose of providing a shielded space to put hab modules initially. 

Is it feasible to have a TBM cutting disc mounted on an earthmover type vehicle to do circular cuts for the main reason of fitting prefabricated airlocks ?

Offline alang

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 403
  • Liked: 213
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #4 on: 11/27/2023 09:37 am »
That's not a solution.  I hate California rush hour as much as the next guy, and recognize the environmental impact, but public transport systems suck, even the good ones, and I don't care if steel wheels are more efficient than tires, this is just no way to live.

But lots of people do, lots of people visit and lots head to London after immigrating.
It's amazing what people put up with and can get used, at least when they're young.
Some people have also discovered that they're not reptiles and can regulate their own body temperature to some extent.

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #5 on: 11/27/2023 10:35 am »
IMHO.   I don’t see the need for a full TBM on Mars for quite a long time. Tunnels for transportation purposes won’t be needed until the settlement in mid Ius Chasma wants a link to the one in mid Tithonium without having to drive right around.

The ability to bore a cylindrical hole into a rock face would be very useful in the short term for the purpose of providing a shielded space to put hab modules initially. 

Is it feasible to have a TBM cutting disc mounted on an earthmover type vehicle to do circular cuts for the main reason of fitting prefabricated airlocks ?
For sure not for transportation, just hub space.

But once the hub space is long enough, you can see how you'd keep a lane open for transport, and the rest of the cross section for hab.

The beauty is the infinite volume you can create using the machine. Can you do a mile/year?

How much power does such an operation take, so how many starships full of solar panels does it need?
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #6 on: 11/27/2023 10:38 am »
That's not a solution.  I hate California rush hour as much as the next guy, and recognize the environmental impact, but public transport systems suck, even the good ones, and I don't care if steel wheels are more efficient than tires, this is just no way to live.

But lots of people do, lots of people visit and lots head to London after immigrating.
It's amazing what people put up with and can get used, at least when they're young.
Some people have also discovered that they're not reptiles and can regulate their own body temperature to some extent.

Yes, people can suffer quite a lot and still carry on if there's a good music scene.

But that doesn't mean it's a good way to go about city planning, or that (bringing this around to TBM) that a car-based public/private hybrid system is not superior, even if tires are less efficient than steel wheels.

Also that lady in the speakers going on about the gap. I get it. I'll mind the gap. I miss the days when trains merely went "choo choo".
« Last Edit: 11/27/2023 11:33 am by meekGee »
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Online edzieba

  • Virtual Realist
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5959
  • United Kingdom
  • Liked: 9104
  • Likes Given: 38
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #7 on: 11/27/2023 11:37 am »
So this afternoon, Heathrow to the BnB, 16 mile distance, but over an hour and a half by Tube.
You could have driven instead, but an hour and a half may not even have gotten you out of the traffic jam into and out of the terminal complex.

What you encountered is a massive concentrated human flow (through multiple modes of transit) problem, not an inherent public transport problem. TBC will not make that problem magically disappear, you'll just end up with an hour and a half in a short car rather than a long one (or a car with a view of tunnel walls rather than with a view of traffic). Tunnelled PRT, personal jetpacks, or teleporters, Heathrow will remain the arse-end of the universe regardless.

Offline mandrewa

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 538
  • Liked: 440
  • Likes Given: 8123
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #8 on: 11/27/2023 12:31 pm »
So this afternoon, Heathrow to the BnB, 16 mile distance, but over an hour and a half by Tube.
You could have driven instead, but an hour and a half may not even have gotten you out of the traffic jam into and out of the terminal complex.

What you encountered is a massive concentrated human flow (through multiple modes of transit) problem, not an inherent public transport problem. TBC will not make that problem magically disappear, you'll just end up with an hour and a half in a short car rather than a long one (or a car with a view of tunnel walls rather than with a view of traffic). Tunnelled PRT, personal jetpacks, or teleporters, Heathrow will remain the arse-end of the universe regardless.

HS2 (a section of high-speed rail in the UK) is on the verge of being cancelled.  Some people are estimating that when it's all said and done, HS2 will have cost $227 billion.  That's $227 billion for 140 miles of track and a relatively small number of stations (or maybe it's less than 140 miles.  That's a detail that needs checking.)

Of course a good part of the $227 billion has already been spent.  Even so, enough people can see much better uses for the x billion that would have to be spent to complete this project.

Why does it cost so much?  And why does it cost an estimated ten times more to build a mile of track in the UK than say France?

I'm mystified.  But part of the problem is obvious.  There are layers and layers of regulation in the UK.  And it seems to take for ever for the government to approve anything.  This adds enormously to the cost of doing anything.

As Elon Musk has said in so many words, or maybe this is just what I thought he said this in so many words, since this is also my thinking, we may have only a short window where it is possible to build a rocket that can reach Mars.  Since it may be that fairly soon ever increasing regulation within the United States may make that impossibly expensive.

The UK is clearly close to that point for high-speed rail.  Ie. the UK just can't afford to build it.

The Boring Company may offer a way out of this impasse since their costs per mile are a absurdly tiny fraction of what the UK is currently spending.  Or this may be irrelevant since UK regulation would make those costs arbitrarily high.

Offline Nomadd

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8829
  • Solomon Islands
  • Liked: 60359
  • Likes Given: 1293
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #9 on: 11/27/2023 12:36 pm »
So this afternoon, Heathrow to the BnB, 16 mile distance, but over an hour and a half by Tube.
You could have driven instead, but an hour and a half may not even have gotten you out of the traffic jam into and out of the terminal complex.

What you encountered is a massive concentrated human flow (through multiple modes of transit) problem, not an inherent public transport problem. TBC will not make that problem magically disappear, you'll just end up with an hour and a half in a short car rather than a long one (or a car with a view of tunnel walls rather than with a view of traffic). Tunnelled PRT, personal jetpacks, or teleporters, Heathrow will remain the arse-end of the universe regardless.
The last time I took that trip was 1992. Is it worse now?
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #10 on: 11/27/2023 12:51 pm »
So this afternoon, Heathrow to the BnB, 16 mile distance, but over an hour and a half by Tube.
You could have driven instead, but an hour and a half may not even have gotten you out of the traffic jam into and out of the terminal complex.

What you encountered is a massive concentrated human flow (through multiple modes of transit) problem, not an inherent public transport problem. TBC will not make that problem magically disappear, you'll just end up with an hour and a half in a short car rather than a long one (or a car with a view of tunnel walls rather than with a view of traffic). Tunnelled PRT, personal jetpacks, or teleporters, Heathrow will remain the arse-end of the universe regardless.
Hmm maybe.

Traffic jams are partly a result of uncontrolled flow through unstructured environments.  To wit, tube cars hardly get into jams, since there's a central controller.  Better to run into a capacity limit than into a meltdown like what happens on the roads.

But TBC will fail more like a train system - run against its capacity, and central control will throttle the inlets rather than let it crash.

And finally, rather get stuck for the same amount of time in my car, where I can have a phone call, control the temperature, and select the armpits I'm looking at.  And where there's no speaker lady.  And I can decide to divert to a shop because my gf called in and said we're short on this or that. You know - freedom of navigation.

TBC deserves a chance to prove it can do all that.  It's not an obvious dead end some folks portrayed it as, based on narrow subsystem metrics - that same rationale that was used to prove Falcon was an inferior rocket.

Those numbers (user-km/yr type or ergs/user-km or what have you) don't capture the more important factors such as "how does it integrate with a less urban lifestyle".

ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline andrewmcleod

  • Member
  • Posts: 31
  • Yorkshire Dales
  • Liked: 46
  • Likes Given: 37
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #11 on: 11/27/2023 12:53 pm »
HS2 (a section of high-speed rail in the UK) is on the verge of being cancelled.  Some people are estimating that when it's all said and done, HS2 will have cost $227 billion.  That's $227 billion for 140 miles of track and a relatively small number of stations (or maybe it's less than 140 miles.  That's a detail that needs checking.)

Of course a good part of the $227 billion has already been spent.  Even so, enough people can see much better uses for the x billion that would have to be spent to complete this project.

Why does it cost so much?  And why does it cost an estimated ten times more to build a mile of track in the UK than say France?

Ironically a large part of the cost (in the southern part which will be built) is tunnelling, because leafy rich Cotswolds areas insisted that the railway had to go underground to avoid spoiling the view...

Offline steveleach

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2135
  • Liked: 2722
  • Likes Given: 951
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #12 on: 11/27/2023 12:56 pm »
So this afternoon, Heathrow to the BnB, 16 mile distance, but over an hour and a half by Tube.
You could have driven instead, but an hour and a half may not even have gotten you out of the traffic jam into and out of the terminal complex.

What you encountered is a massive concentrated human flow (through multiple modes of transit) problem, not an inherent public transport problem. TBC will not make that problem magically disappear, you'll just end up with an hour and a half in a short car rather than a long one (or a car with a view of tunnel walls rather than with a view of traffic). Tunnelled PRT, personal jetpacks, or teleporters, Heathrow will remain the arse-end of the universe regardless.
The last time I took that trip was 1992. Is it worse now?
Depends on where exactly you are trying to get to. If your destination is somewhere near an Elizabeth Line station its really easy, though not particularly quick.

If not, the pain and time is largely dependent on the journey time between the most appropriate Elizabeth Line station and your ultimate destination.

Of course, the time it takes for the trains to get into the city is largely defined by all the stops it makes along the way, a problem that Loop won't have.

Online edzieba

  • Virtual Realist
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5959
  • United Kingdom
  • Liked: 9104
  • Likes Given: 38
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #13 on: 11/27/2023 12:56 pm »
So this afternoon, Heathrow to the BnB, 16 mile distance, but over an hour and a half by Tube.
You could have driven instead, but an hour and a half may not even have gotten you out of the traffic jam into and out of the terminal complex.

What you encountered is a massive concentrated human flow (through multiple modes of transit) problem, not an inherent public transport problem. TBC will not make that problem magically disappear, you'll just end up with an hour and a half in a short car rather than a long one (or a car with a view of tunnel walls rather than with a view of traffic). Tunnelled PRT, personal jetpacks, or teleporters, Heathrow will remain the arse-end of the universe regardless.
The last time I took that trip was 1992. Is it worse now?
Yes, very.
For comparison, even pre-Crossrail an hour and a half was sufficient for a train from Reading to Paddington, an interchange via the tube to Liverpool Street, and a train back out to the end of a branch line.
Heathrow is its own special brand of suck, due to being a major international hub crammed into a footprint meant for a regional airport. The nearly two decades of cuts of funding for public transport  and bloated vanity projects like HS2 and the 'night tube' cutting into bare-minimum maintenance funding and time certainly don't help either.

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #14 on: 11/27/2023 01:13 pm »
So this afternoon, Heathrow to the BnB, 16 mile distance, but over an hour and a half by Tube.
You could have driven instead, but an hour and a half may not even have gotten you out of the traffic jam into and out of the terminal complex.

What you encountered is a massive concentrated human flow (through multiple modes of transit) problem, not an inherent public transport problem. TBC will not make that problem magically disappear, you'll just end up with an hour and a half in a short car rather than a long one (or a car with a view of tunnel walls rather than with a view of traffic). Tunnelled PRT, personal jetpacks, or teleporters, Heathrow will remain the arse-end of the universe regardless.
The last time I took that trip was 1992. Is it worse now?
Yes, very.
For comparison, even pre-Crossrail an hour and a half was sufficient for a train from Reading to Paddington, an interchange via the tube to Liverpool Street, and a train back out to the end of a branch line.
Heathrow is its own special brand of suck, due to being a major international hub crammed into a footprint meant for a regional airport. The nearly two decades of cuts of funding for public transport  and bloated vanity projects like HS2 and the 'night tube' cutting into bare-minimum maintenance funding and time certainly don't help either.
So average speed on a tube system depends on:

- The fact that the entire train stops at each station.
- The fact that each train line is linear, so requires pedestrian exchanges between crossing lines.
- The fact that because the atomic unit is large, service frequency reduces during off-hours

And the advantage are:
- Peak overall capacity per "lane" is higher
- When traffic hits capacity, it just levels off, instead of crashing (I've never called graffiti and piss "graceful" before, but there you have it)
- Also, the tube is a social experience, for better and for worse.  Overall  that's a good thing.

TBC's per lane capacity is not known, but it will definitely have a lot more lanes, and the lanes will be routable, so I think it'll beat the tube on overall capacity.  It'll definitely fail gracefully, just like the tube.  It'll definitely not be social. If you want to meet people, go to a pub.
« Last Edit: 11/27/2023 02:56 pm by meekGee »
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline chopsticks

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1052
  • Québec, Canada
  • Liked: 1074
  • Likes Given: 164
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #15 on: 11/27/2023 01:14 pm »
The conversation for PRT ended a long time ago. It's been around for decades and there's a reason it never works.

And no, putting it in tunnels isn't better, unless you think that a more expensive way of doing it is better.

Offline chopsticks

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1052
  • Québec, Canada
  • Liked: 1074
  • Likes Given: 164
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #16 on: 11/27/2023 01:17 pm »
One more lane, bro. But underground. That'll fix it, surely!

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #17 on: 11/27/2023 01:58 pm »
HS2 (a section of high-speed rail in the UK) is on the verge of being cancelled.  Some people are estimating that when it's all said and done, HS2 will have cost $227 billion.  That's $227 billion for 140 miles of track and a relatively small number of stations (or maybe it's less than 140 miles.  That's a detail that needs checking.)

Of course a good part of the $227 billion has already been spent.  Even so, enough people can see much better uses for the x billion that would have to be spent to complete this project.

Why does it cost so much?  And why does it cost an estimated ten times more to build a mile of track in the UK than say France?

Ironically a large part of the cost (in the southern part which will be built) is tunnelling, because leafy rich Cotswolds areas insisted that the railway had to go underground to avoid spoiling the view...
What passes here for a "view" is pretty sordid.  Ugh.  :)

But for sure, for TBC to be successful, cities have to allow for tunneling below a certain depth to be unobstructed.

Just like needing to have hundreds of ships going to Mars every synod, there will be a need to have hundreds of tunneling heads under a large city, tunneling thousands of miles of underground lanes.
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #18 on: 11/27/2023 02:59 pm »
The conversation for PRT ended a long time ago. It's been around for decades and there's a reason it never works.

And no, putting it in tunnels isn't better, unless you think that a more expensive way of doing it is better.
Where was a PRT ever tried where the cars are also regular cars that can cross over to unmanaged space?

And cheap tunnels absolutely matter when considering integration into a high density space.

Cheap sarcasm makes a very poor argument.
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline andrewmcleod

  • Member
  • Posts: 31
  • Yorkshire Dales
  • Liked: 46
  • Likes Given: 37
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #19 on: 11/27/2023 03:37 pm »
And since London infrastructure has come up...

The diameter of the Las Vegas tunnels is about 12 ft inner diameter. The smallest London Underground tubes are this size or smaller. So if you can dig cheap tunnels this size, you can dig cheap (albeit small) underground rail systems this size.

Thus what really matters is not 'will people moving systems in individual cars' succeed, its 'can you dig cheap tunnels'? Because prior experience is that tunnelling is very much not cheap. Change that, and you can do a lot of different things.

Fundamentally, the Boring Company will succeed or fail on price per km of tunnel, just like SpaceX have succeeded on price per kg to orbit. And just like SpaceX with Starlink, they are trying to generate their own market for their product in the form of Loop transit. But they don't necessarily need to because there is already a market for tunnelling. If 12 foot diameter tunnels were some sort of magic diameter where tunneling was fast and 1% the cost of a larger rail tunnel, cities would find it more attractive to make small-diameter people movers (like tube trains) instead of spending billions on larger tunnels where they didn't need connections to existing systems.

The Loop concept could be a total failure, yet the Boring Company be successful. The reverse is also sort of true in that a successful network designed to support autonomous cars both in tunnels and on the surface to constructed terminals might actually be very successful in some locations without digging a single hole...

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #20 on: 11/27/2023 04:04 pm »
So this afternoon, Heathrow to the BnB, 16 mile distance, but over an hour and a half by Tube.  Walk a bunch of tunnels to catch the Picadili line (lugging luggage of course) then 30 minutes to Earl's court, super crowded car, magnificent views of graffiti and piss, change over (more stairs), wait, another line for 20 minutes (less crowded but wet and muddy), then a 15 minute walk across the neighborhood since they can't route the tube to every house now can they.

That's not a solution.  I hate California rush hour as much as the next guy, and recognize the environmental impact, but public transport systems suck, even the good ones, and I don't care if steel wheels are more efficient than tires, this is just no way to live.

TBC is the only viable idea out there to give you the benefits of cars, but avoid the infrastructure limitations of roads.

... But yes, Mars. 

Some criticism towards the Las Vegas project is that it uses human drivers and fully.captive cars, but what it does rely on is cheap tunnel boring.  Which is exactly what's important for Mars.

The capability of a fully electric, self starting boring machine on Mars is so far beyond normal mission plans.

Even a 1 mile tunnel, just the first mile..
Swapping road for tunnel doesn't make car any better at transporting people. Using 1500-2000kg 5mx2m steel box on wheels to move 1-2 people is still a very inefficient use  of energy and valuable urban land.

Still can't bet humble bike for efficient personal transport and its modern successors ebikes and escooters.

Offline chopsticks

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1052
  • Québec, Canada
  • Liked: 1074
  • Likes Given: 164
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #21 on: 11/27/2023 04:35 pm »
And since London infrastructure has come up...

The diameter of the Las Vegas tunnels is about 12 ft inner diameter. The smallest London Underground tubes are this size or smaller. So if you can dig cheap tunnels this size, you can dig cheap (albeit small) underground rail systems this size.

Thus what really matters is not 'will people moving systems in individual cars' succeed, its 'can you dig cheap tunnels'? Because prior experience is that tunnelling is very much not cheap. Change that, and you can do a lot of different things.

Meh, not as much as they would lead you to believe. The majority of the cost when building underground metros is the stations. The expensive part isn't so much the tunnels themselves but how you interface that with the surface. And from what I understand, TBC wants stations everywhere and a lot of these stations wouldn't be space efficient at all since they want the cars to drive out onto the surface. That's a terrible land usage in a city. Not to mention all of the engineering and analysis needed for where they want to put the tunnels. For them to do what they say they want to do, and for all of the people stanning for TBC, they will essentially have to recreate the surface streets underground. Does that sound at all workable?

And for smaller tunnels being cheaper - from what I understand that hasn't really been the case historically. It sounds good on paper but it incurs other costs elsewhere. Remember that stations are the expensive part. I believe that some metros in more recent times have opted for large diameter tunnels and then stack the tracks, this also allows for cheaper stations to be built.

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #22 on: 11/27/2023 04:36 pm »
So this afternoon, Heathrow to the BnB, 16 mile distance, but over an hour and a half by Tube.  Walk a bunch of tunnels to catch the Picadili line (lugging luggage of course) then 30 minutes to Earl's court, super crowded car, magnificent views of graffiti and piss, change over (more stairs), wait, another line for 20 minutes (less crowded but wet and muddy), then a 15 minute walk across the neighborhood since they can't route the tube to every house now can they.

That's not a solution.  I hate California rush hour as much as the next guy, and recognize the environmental impact, but public transport systems suck, even the good ones, and I don't care if steel wheels are more efficient than tires, this is just no way to live.

TBC is the only viable idea out there to give you the benefits of cars, but avoid the infrastructure limitations of roads.

... But yes, Mars. 

Some criticism towards the Las Vegas project is that it uses human drivers and fully.captive cars, but what it does rely on is cheap tunnel boring.  Which is exactly what's important for Mars.

The capability of a fully electric, self starting boring machine on Mars is so far beyond normal mission plans.

Even a 1 mile tunnel, just the first mile..
Swapping road for tunnel doesn't make car any better at transporting people. Using 1500-2000kg 5mx2m steel box on wheels to move 1-2 people is still a very inefficient use  of energy and valuable urban land.

Still can't bet humble bike for efficient personal transport and its modern successors ebikes and escooters.
Sure, but that's a narrow metric.

If everything else was the same, and it was just a bucket brigade exercise in moving the most people for least energy, or the most people per tunnel diameter, then rail will probably win.

But that's missing the bigger question, of how usable the system is, and in which environment, and when compared to which alternatives.

That's where the arguments are.  That TBC can provide integration with a much sparser suburbia, and provide better quality of ride, and support more modes of transportation - things that the narrow metrics miss.

Optimization of subsystems, or of narrow meteics, don't lead to better systems.

ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #23 on: 11/27/2023 04:46 pm »
In some cases a car may seem like quicker way to get from A-B it not always best use of a persons time. There is a considerable expense to owning and operating a car. To cover those additional cost people have to work longer. Do some research into car ownership cost and you maybe shocked how many hours you work a week to pay for it.



Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #24 on: 11/27/2023 06:02 pm »
In some cases a car may seem like quicker way to get from A-B it not always best use of a persons time. There is a considerable expense to owning and operating a car. To cover those additional cost people have to work longer. Do some research into car ownership cost and you maybe shocked how many hours you work a week to pay for it.
Correct, which means it cuts both ways.  Don't argue for cars while using narrow metrics either.

The advantages of TBC are holistically, in how it can integrate with real lifestyles that are not fully urban or high density.

I never heard anyone saying that TBC will carry the day on cost per passenger-mile.

ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Online Asteroza

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2789
  • Liked: 1051
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #25 on: 11/27/2023 10:01 pm »
I suppose the argument could be made Boring Company tunnels with Tesla robotaxi's are the mundane singularity version of utopian pod PRT systems. Does it reach the "good enough" line, particularly in light of retrofit costs onto existing infrastructure?

Plus, if FSD gets to a usable stage, why the focus on classical cars as FSD robotaxis? If it fits and has FSD, why not other vehicle patterns? We've seen plenty of renders for bus-like systems and car loading skates, but why not so much of the reverse, like those hypercompact two seater EV's various companies have played around with (such as the Toyota i-Road and the GM PUMA).

Offline OTV Booster

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5059
  • Terra is my nation; currently Kansas
  • Liked: 3514
  • Likes Given: 5932
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #26 on: 11/27/2023 11:42 pm »
And since London infrastructure has come up...

The diameter of the Las Vegas tunnels is about 12 ft inner diameter. The smallest London Underground tubes are this size or smaller. So if you can dig cheap tunnels this size, you can dig cheap (albeit small) underground rail systems this size.

Thus what really matters is not 'will people moving systems in individual cars' succeed, its 'can you dig cheap tunnels'? Because prior experience is that tunnelling is very much not cheap. Change that, and you can do a lot of different things.

Meh, not as much as they would lead you to believe. The majority of the cost when building underground metros is the stations. The expensive part isn't so much the tunnels themselves but how you interface that with the surface. And from what I understand, TBC wants stations everywhere and a lot of these stations wouldn't be space efficient at all since they want the cars to drive out onto the surface. That's a terrible land usage in a city. Not to mention all of the engineering and analysis needed for where they want to put the tunnels. For them to do what they say they want to do, and for all of the people stanning for TBC, they will essentially have to recreate the surface streets underground. Does that sound at all workable?

And for smaller tunnels being cheaper - from what I understand that hasn't really been the case historically. It sounds good on paper but it incurs other costs elsewhere. Remember that stations are the expensive part. I believe that some metros in more recent times have opted for large diameter tunnels and then stack the tracks, this also allows for cheaper stations to be built.
Yup, stations are expensive. The Convention Center has three but AIUI the casinos will not. For the LVCC short haul pilot project terminals make sense. For an idealized, fully developed tunnel system limited to fully autonomous vehicles a terminal is not needed. In the meantime we're seeing a hybrid mix.


On the question of space efficiency of a near empty car, compare it to an empty or near empty bus. Been there, done that. If a bus route has low ridership during certain hours, eventually they trim back the number of runs and the potential onesy-twosy passengers are SOL. With autonomous cars, (let's ignore tunnels to keep the issues clear cut) this doesn't happen.


Another strength of autonomous cars under computer dispatch is the potential for ad hoc ride share. A group of passengers doing the same point to point run can do that now but there is currently no cab service that I am aware of that will make stops along the way for unrelated pickups and drop offs. This has the potential to increase passenger density per mile driven.


None of what I've written depends on tunnels. They're an open question. My conjecture is that like most things, every situation is different, and where it would work and where it won't requires learning. Las Vegas seems to be a good place to start. It's a new city and the physical infrastructure is literally shallow. An archeologist would not find layer upon layer. It's hellish place to bike or walk during the hot season, and much of the traffic is out of towners that have no interest in learning the local bus routes.


A big problem facing TBC, probably a major reason they haven't been able to get traction elsewhere, is that it's still an unknown and no city leader wants to stick their neck out on an inherently expensive and untried system. Politics being what it is, would not treat an elected official gently if there were even the perception that megabucks had been squandered on pie in the sky. If TBC does a good job on the larger Las Vegas loop this could change.


As for your assertion that people need to get away from cars, I half agree with you, but only half. Let's save that for another time.
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline raketa

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 462
  • Liked: 147
  • Likes Given: 59
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #27 on: 11/28/2023 02:47 am »
Chris, the original post was started by me yeras ago, but you took it over. This is not right in my opinion

Offline CMac

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 174
  • Ireland
  • Liked: 98
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #28 on: 11/28/2023 06:50 am »
I'm in a city in China where, unusually for here, there isn't a good rail system. Roads are the only mode. There are a phenomenal number of e-scooters. ICE scooters are banned. Maybe 70% (WAG) of transport is by scooter. I could envisage autonomous scooters able to travel in shoals, with individuals splitting and joining along the way. This is what they do now with human drivers. If they could get in tunnels, they would, enthusiastically. You could imagine a lift with 20 scooters going down to join the flow.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47311
  • UK
    • Plan 28
  • Liked: 80117
  • Likes Given: 36283
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #29 on: 11/28/2023 08:37 am »
Ok, that really is enough posts on the World’s transport systems. NSF isn’t an urban planning or mass transit system forum.

This thread covers TBC’s tunnelling tech, progress and potential off-world use. If we can’t keep to that then the thread will just be permanently locked.

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #30 on: 11/28/2023 10:24 am »
Ok, that really is enough posts on the World’s transport systems. NSF isn’t an urban planning or mass transit system forum.

This thread covers TBC’s tunnelling tech, progress and potential off-world use. If we can’t keep to that then the thread will just be permanently locked.
Agreed.  Mea Culpa.
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline Greg Hullender

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 600
  • Seattle
    • Rocket Stack Rank
  • Liked: 440
  • Likes Given: 332
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #31 on: 11/28/2023 07:25 pm »
I didn't read the original thread, but the top of a new thread is probably a great place to ask "dumb" questions, so please be kind. :-)

Is the Boring Company really relevant to Mars or the moon at all? Don't these drilling machines consume huge amounts of water? I'd think a tunnel-boring machine for use on the moon or Mars would be a totally different technology.

Also, exactly how much tunneling is needed in either place over, say, the next 100 years? Is there really a use case for a tunnel other than to build a habitat that's protected from radiation? Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper just to bury the habitat in a meter or two of regolith? Even if you had to design a Martian/Lunar bulldozer, it'd seem that'd be a whole lot cheaper than a tunnel boring machine.

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #32 on: 11/28/2023 07:33 pm »
I didn't read the original thread, but the top of a new thread is probably a great place to ask "dumb" questions, so please be kind. :-)

Is the Boring Company really relevant to Mars or the moon at all? Don't these drilling machines consume huge amounts of water? I'd think a tunnel-boring machine for use on the moon or Mars would be a totally different technology.

Also, exactly how much tunneling is needed in either place over, say, the next 100 years? Is there really a use case for a tunnel other than to build a habitat that's protected from radiation? Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper just to bury the habitat in a meter or two of regolith? Even if you had to design a Martian/Lunar bulldozer, it'd seem that'd be a whole lot cheaper than a tunnel boring machine.
Some of us think they're very relevant.

Burying a habitat requires you to bring it.

Tunneling is the ultimate ISRU habitat construction technique.

The moon might be too dry, I'm not sure, but the moon is not the goal - Mars is.

If you can get your machine underground and install an airlock behind it, you can keep drilling under full pressure.  That's just miles ahead of any other construction technique.  (Miles, get it?)
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline OTV Booster

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5059
  • Terra is my nation; currently Kansas
  • Liked: 3514
  • Likes Given: 5932
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #33 on: 11/28/2023 09:33 pm »
I didn't read the original thread, but the top of a new thread is probably a great place to ask "dumb" questions, so please be kind. :-)

Is the Boring Company really relevant to Mars or the moon at all? Don't these drilling machines consume huge amounts of water? I'd think a tunnel-boring machine for use on the moon or Mars would be a totally different technology.

Also, exactly how much tunneling is needed in either place over, say, the next 100 years? Is there really a use case for a tunnel other than to build a habitat that's protected from radiation? Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper just to bury the habitat in a meter or two of regolith? Even if you had to design a Martian/Lunar bulldozer, it'd seem that'd be a whole lot cheaper than a tunnel boring machine.
Some of us think they're very relevant.

Burying a habitat requires you to bring it.

Tunneling is the ultimate ISRU habitat construction technique.

The moon might be too dry, I'm not sure, but the moon is not the goal - Mars is.

If you can get your machine underground and install an airlock behind it, you can keep drilling under full pressure.  That's just miles ahead of any other construction technique.  (Miles, get it?)
To pressurize the tunnel while boring, the walls would have to be pressure sealed behind the cutting head. Not impossible. But how is the fresh cut sealed while it's being made?


Also, it's easy enough to say that the mass of regolith outside the bore hole would counter the interior pressure and prevent a blowout. This might be true if the regolith is uniform but what if you hit an ice pocket or some other surprise that Mars will most likely offer up? The unpressurized tunnels on earth are in compression and the masonry cladding is fine with this. A pressurized Mars bore would be in (hopefully) uniform compression from regolith minus the internal pressure.


I can think of a couple tentative solutions for the tension issue and can think of some reasons they may not be adequate. I can not  see how to get around the unsealed cutting face.


Takeaway: boring while pressurized will probably be a lot more trouble than cut and fill. If they can come up with an unpressurized water substitute to cool the cutting bits and carry away the grit, it could work, but not for the relatively small amount of hab they will need for the first few synods. Too much investment for too little return.

We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #34 on: 11/28/2023 09:41 pm »
I didn't read the original thread, but the top of a new thread is probably a great place to ask "dumb" questions, so please be kind. :-)

Is the Boring Company really relevant to Mars or the moon at all? Don't these drilling machines consume huge amounts of water? I'd think a tunnel-boring machine for use on the moon or Mars would be a totally different technology.

Also, exactly how much tunneling is needed in either place over, say, the next 100 years? Is there really a use case for a tunnel other than to build a habitat that's protected from radiation? Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper just to bury the habitat in a meter or two of regolith? Even if you had to design a Martian/Lunar bulldozer, it'd seem that'd be a whole lot cheaper than a tunnel boring machine.
Some of us think they're very relevant.

Burying a habitat requires you to bring it.

Tunneling is the ultimate ISRU habitat construction technique.

The moon might be too dry, I'm not sure, but the moon is not the goal - Mars is.

If you can get your machine underground and install an airlock behind it, you can keep drilling under full pressure.  That's just miles ahead of any other construction technique.  (Miles, get it?)
To pressurize the tunnel while boring, the walls would have to be pressure sealed behind the cutting head. Not impossible. But how is the fresh cut sealed while it's being made?


Also, it's easy enough to say that the mass of regolith outside the bore hole would counter the interior pressure and prevent a blowout. This might be true if the regolith is uniform but what if you hit an ice pocket or some other surprise that Mars will most likely offer up? The unpressurized tunnels on earth are in compression and the masonry cladding is fine with this. A pressurized Mars bore would be in (hopefully) uniform compression from regolith minus the internal pressure.


I can think of a couple tentative solutions for the tension issue and can think of some reasons they may not be adequate. I can not  see how to get around the unsealed cutting face.


Takeaway: boring while pressurized will probably be a lot more trouble than cut and fill. If they can come up with an unpressurized water substitute to cool the cutting bits and carry away the grit, it could work, but not for the relatively small amount of hab they will need for the first few synods. Too much investment for too little return.
IMO:

They'll want to drill into a hillside. Very quickly the walls and ceiling are thick enough that pressure is not an issue.  Specific cracks can be sealed. If rock porosity is an issue, maybe a surface sealant.  It really depends on the geology, but structurally it should be fine.

The tunnel should have a shallow upward slope to aid in draining fluids.

A main airlock needs to be set up, probably a bit deeper in, so there's plenty thick rock to anchor into.

I figured a fluid only lock below the main lock will allow drainage without needing to cycle the main lock.  Maybe even disposal of boring refuse.

Once sealed, just keep going. A year later  consider a second parallel bore or a cross bore.
« Last Edit: 11/28/2023 09:43 pm by meekGee »
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline Ludus

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1743
  • Liked: 1255
  • Likes Given: 1012
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #35 on: 11/29/2023 02:37 pm »
So this afternoon, Heathrow to the BnB, 16 mile distance, but over an hour and a half by Tube.  Walk a bunch of tunnels to catch the Picadili line (lugging luggage of course) then 30 minutes to Earl's court, super crowded car, magnificent views of graffiti and piss, change over (more stairs), wait, another line for 20 minutes (less crowded but wet and muddy), then a 15 minute walk across the neighborhood since they can't route the tube to every house now can they.

That's not a solution.  I hate California rush hour as much as the next guy, and recognize the environmental impact, but public transport systems suck, even the good ones, and I don't care if steel wheels are more efficient than tires, this is just no way to live.

TBC is the only viable idea out there to give you the benefits of cars, but avoid the infrastructure limitations of roads.

... But yes, Mars. 

Some criticism towards the Las Vegas project is that it uses human drivers and fully.captive cars, but what it does rely on is cheap tunnel boring.  Which is exactly what's important for Mars.

The capability of a fully electric, self starting boring machine on Mars is so far beyond normal mission plans.

Even a 1 mile tunnel, just the first mile..
Swapping road for tunnel doesn't make car any better at transporting people. Using 1500-2000kg 5mx2m steel box on wheels to move 1-2 people is still a very inefficient use  of energy and valuable urban land.

Still can't bet humble bike for efficient personal transport and its modern successors ebikes and escooters.
Sure, but that's a narrow metric.

If everything else was the same, and it was just a bucket brigade exercise in moving the most people for least energy, or the most people per tunnel diameter, then rail will probably win.

But that's missing the bigger question, of how usable the system is, and in which environment, and when compared to which alternatives.

That's where the arguments are.  That TBC can provide integration with a much sparser suburbia, and provide better quality of ride, and support more modes of transportation - things that the narrow metrics miss.

Optimization of subsystems, or of narrow meteics, don't lead to better systems.

H.G. Wells, “Anticipations” section on Locomotion from 1901 provides good context for this discussion from someone thinking about these issues at the very beginning of the 20th century.

https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19229

Quote
Railway travelling is at best a compromise. The quite conceivable ideal of locomotive convenience, so far as travellers are concerned, is surely a highly mobile conveyance capable of travelling easily and swiftly to any desired point, traversing, at a reasonably controlled pace, the ordinary roads and streets, and having access for higher rates of speed and long-distance travelling to specialized ways restricted to swift traffic, and possibly furnished with guide-rails. For the collection and delivery of all sorts of perishable goods also the same system is obviously altogether superior to the existing methods. Moreover, such a system would admit of that secular progress in engines and vehicles that the stereotyped conditions of the railway have almost completely arrested, because it would allow almost any new pattern to be put at once upon the ways without interference with the established traffic. Had such an ideal been kept in view from the first the traveller would now be able to get through his long-distance journeys at a pace of from seventy miles or more an hour without changing, and without any of the trouble, waiting, expense, and delay that arises between the household or hotel and the actual rail. It was an ideal that must have been at least possible to an intelligent person fifty years ago, and, had it been resolutely pursued, the world, instead of fumbling from compromise to compromise as it always has done and as it will do very probably for many centuries yet, might have been provided to-day, not only with an infinitely more practicable method of communication, but with one capable of a steady and continual evolution from year to year.




Offline Lampyridae

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2618
  • South Africa
  • Liked: 936
  • Likes Given: 1983
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #36 on: 11/29/2023 04:31 pm »
I didn't read the original thread, but the top of a new thread is probably a great place to ask "dumb" questions, so please be kind. :-)

Is the Boring Company really relevant to Mars or the moon at all? Don't these drilling machines consume huge amounts of water? I'd think a tunnel-boring machine for use on the moon or Mars would be a totally different technology.

Also, exactly how much tunneling is needed in either place over, say, the next 100 years? Is there really a use case for a tunnel other than to build a habitat that's protected from radiation? Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper just to bury the habitat in a meter or two of regolith? Even if you had to design a Martian/Lunar bulldozer, it'd seem that'd be a whole lot cheaper than a tunnel boring machine.
Some of us think they're very relevant.

Burying a habitat requires you to bring it.

Tunneling is the ultimate ISRU habitat construction technique.

The moon might be too dry, I'm not sure, but the moon is not the goal - Mars is.

If you can get your machine underground and install an airlock behind it, you can keep drilling under full pressure.  That's just miles ahead of any other construction technique.  (Miles, get it?)

I disagree. I've discussed this ad nauseam on the Amazing Martian Habitats thread. All you need is a concrete shell and a few metres of dirt, some extra steel and you have the same protection as an underground tunnel without having to live in Metro 2033.

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #37 on: 11/29/2023 04:55 pm »


I didn't read the original thread, but the top of a new thread is probably a great place to ask "dumb" questions, so please be kind. :-)

Is the Boring Company really relevant to Mars or the moon at all? Don't these drilling machines consume huge amounts of water? I'd think a tunnel-boring machine for use on the moon or Mars would be a totally different technology.

Also, exactly how much tunneling is needed in either place over, say, the next 100 years? Is there really a use case for a tunnel other than to build a habitat that's protected from radiation? Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper just to bury the habitat in a meter or two of regolith? Even if you had to design a Martian/Lunar bulldozer, it'd seem that'd be a whole lot cheaper than a tunnel boring machine.
Some of us think they're very relevant.

Burying a habitat requires you to bring it.

Tunneling is the ultimate ISRU habitat construction technique.

The moon might be too dry, I'm not sure, but the moon is not the goal - Mars is.

If you can get your machine underground and install an airlock behind it, you can keep drilling under full pressure.  That's just miles ahead of any other construction technique.  (Miles, get it?)

I disagree. I've discussed this ad nauseam on the Amazing Martian Habitats thread. All you need is a concrete shell and a few metres of dirt, some extra steel and you have the same protection as an underground tunnel without having to live in Metro 2033.

Why is a covered tunnel not "metro 2033"?
And why do a trench, concrete shell and a few meters of cover rock constitute an "all you need"  seems to me like a lot more work, and in vacuum.
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline Oersted

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2858
  • Liked: 3988
  • Likes Given: 2722
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #38 on: 11/30/2023 07:20 pm »
As I said back in the Amazing Habitats thread, it doesn't make sense to bring the building materials to Mars when they're already there, in the shape of bedrock. Bore and bore and keep boring and you have an ever-expanding interior space getting cheaper by the meter.

Musk knows that which is why he founded the Boring Company.   

Offline cuddihy

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1251
  • Liked: 580
  • Likes Given: 935
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #39 on: 11/30/2023 07:31 pm »
There is an open question as to how translatable the technologies are. On earth, water cooling and groundwater is a large part of the equation. Concrete tunnel segments are made of a large amount of water. How does this translate to Martian environment?

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 610
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #40 on: 11/30/2023 07:36 pm »
How is the environment on Mars likely to determine the design and operation of a boring machine ?
Lower temperature I can understand, reducing the cooling requirements for the cutters but what about gravity and pressure ??

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 610
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #41 on: 11/30/2023 07:50 pm »
If cutting into bedrock would any tunnel liners be needed ?

Offline steveleach

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2135
  • Liked: 2722
  • Likes Given: 951
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #42 on: 11/30/2023 10:35 pm »
As I said back in the Amazing Habitats thread, it doesn't make sense to bring the building materials to Mars when they're already there, in the shape of bedrock. Bore and bore and keep boring and you have an ever-expanding interior space getting cheaper by the meter.

Musk knows that which is why he founded the Boring Company.   
While that might well have been a nice side benefit, my understanding is that he founded the Boring Company because he hated getting stuck in traffic on the way to the factory.

I tend to agree with you that bringing along an appropriately designed tunnel boring machine could be a very effective way to make lots of habitable space.

Offline chopsticks

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1052
  • Québec, Canada
  • Liked: 1074
  • Likes Given: 164
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #43 on: 12/01/2023 12:06 am »


As I said back in the Amazing Habitats thread, it doesn't make sense to bring the building materials to Mars when they're already there, in the shape of bedrock. Bore and bore and keep boring and you have an ever-expanding interior space getting cheaper by the meter.

Musk knows that which is why he founded the Boring Company.   
While that might well have been a nice side benefit, my understanding is that he founded the Boring Company because he hated getting stuck in traffic on the way to the factory.

Exactly, I haven't seen any evidence that TBC has any Mars related intentions or that Elon Musk has even expressed that in relation to the boring company. It doesn't make sense to me why as to why this thread even exists on NSF because TBC is supposedly a type of public transit and nothing else. And the discussion about what TBC is actually for got shut down (which is fine, it has nothing to do with spaceflight).

I guess we could discuss using TBMs on Mars in general, but there are many operators of TBMs who are not TBC so I'm not sure why this thread is even on here. TBC is about public transportation, not Mars tunnels.

Offline Okie_Steve

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1871
  • Oklahoma, USA
  • Liked: 1134
  • Likes Given: 720
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #44 on: 12/01/2023 04:23 am »
As I recall, Musk did state that he did not initially found TBC with Mars in mind, but also stated that in retrospect it could be useful. As for any other tunnel boring companies, I doubt they will be launching anything soon 😀

This question comes up periodically. Suffice it to say that Chris is OK with this thread as is.

Offline Lampyridae

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2618
  • South Africa
  • Liked: 936
  • Likes Given: 1983
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #45 on: 12/01/2023 04:26 am »
If cutting into bedrock would any tunnel liners be needed ?

It will, certainly for the first however many hundred metres you need to go down to find competent bedrock. Finding unjointed bedrock anywhere on the planet that is directly exposed to the surface is going to be a challenge. Unlike Earth rock, Mars bedrock is billions of years of years old, is likely not hydrothermally altered for the most part (which "heals" fractures and joints in older rock) and has been subjected to intensive explosive forces throughout its history.

Offline Yiosie

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 456
  • Liked: 634
  • Likes Given: 97
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #46 on: 12/01/2023 04:40 am »
From the previous thread in October 2022:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42143.msg2417893#msg2417893

Quote from: su27k
Quote from: chopsticks
I actually am a little bit confused as to why this thread about TBC even exists on this forum since as far as I can tell it has nothing to do with space exploration or Mars. If it did I would be enthused about its existence here. I think Elon Musk even said once that TBC's activities had nothing to do with Mars (I could be wrong on this).

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-use-boring-company-tunneling-technology-mars/

Quote
SpaceX’s COO and President Gwynne Shotwell corroborated past comments made by CEO Elon Musk in a recent interview with CNBC, stating that she believed The Boring Company’s advances in tunneling technology will help SpaceX safely house humans on Mars.

Asked more broadly about collaboration between Musk’s many ventures, ranging from Tesla to Neuralink, she noted that “The Boring Company could actually be how we house people on Mars,”

Quote
In the past, Musk has also expressed interest in and awareness of the many potential uses for advanced tunneling technologies on Mars and for settlement of the solar system more generally. Speaking at 2017’s International Space Station Research and Development Conference, the CEO was asked by an audience member whether The Boring Company was actually just a front to develop technology that would help SpaceX settle humans on Mars. He agreed, at least partially:

“I do think getting good at digging tunnels could be really helpful for Mars. It would be a different optimization for a Mars boring machine versus an Earth boring machine, [but] there’s going to be a [need for a] lot of…mining in general to get raw materials [and water ice]. And then, along the way, building underground habitats where you could get radiation shielding… you could build an entire city underground if you wanted to.”

You actually asked the same question and got a response a year ago, chopsticks  ;D

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 7774
  • Likes Given: 7282
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #47 on: 12/01/2023 05:04 am »
From the previous thread in October 2022:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42143.msg2417893#msg2417893

Quote from: su27k
Quote from: chopsticks
I actually am a little bit confused as to why this thread about TBC even exists on this forum since as far as I can tell it has nothing to do with space exploration or Mars. If it did I would be enthused about its existence here. I think Elon Musk even said once that TBC's activities had nothing to do with Mars (I could be wrong on this).

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-use-boring-company-tunneling-technology-mars/

Quote
SpaceX’s COO and President Gwynne Shotwell corroborated past comments made by CEO Elon Musk in a recent interview with CNBC, stating that she believed The Boring Company’s advances in tunneling technology will help SpaceX safely house humans on Mars.

Asked more broadly about collaboration between Musk’s many ventures, ranging from Tesla to Neuralink, she noted that “The Boring Company could actually be how we house people on Mars,”

Quote
In the past, Musk has also expressed interest in and awareness of the many potential uses for advanced tunneling technologies on Mars and for settlement of the solar system more generally. Speaking at 2017’s International Space Station Research and Development Conference, the CEO was asked by an audience member whether The Boring Company was actually just a front to develop technology that would help SpaceX settle humans on Mars. He agreed, at least partially:

“I do think getting good at digging tunnels could be really helpful for Mars. It would be a different optimization for a Mars boring machine versus an Earth boring machine, [but] there’s going to be a [need for a] lot of…mining in general to get raw materials [and water ice]. And then, along the way, building underground habitats where you could get radiation shielding… you could build an entire city underground if you wanted to.”

You actually asked the same question and got a response a year ago, chopsticks  ;D

A year from now, we will likely still be discussing the same topic without finding a resolution and asking why this got started in the first place. Rather than engaging in heated conversations about Elon's company on Earth, let's wait for official announcements from him or SpaceX regarding their plans for tunneling on Mars. Then we can have a meaningful discussion and find solutions that SpaceX expects from us armchair engineers (LOL). This approach will prevent us from facing moderation consequences.

Tony stepping off soap box.
Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline Lampyridae

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2618
  • South Africa
  • Liked: 936
  • Likes Given: 1983
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #48 on: 12/01/2023 08:45 am »
From the previous thread in October 2022:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42143.msg2417893#msg2417893

Quote from: su27k
Quote from: chopsticks
I actually am a little bit confused as to why this thread about TBC even exists on this forum since as far as I can tell it has nothing to do with space exploration or Mars. If it did I would be enthused about its existence here. I think Elon Musk even said once that TBC's activities had nothing to do with Mars (I could be wrong on this).

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-use-boring-company-tunneling-technology-mars/

Quote
SpaceX’s COO and President Gwynne Shotwell corroborated past comments made by CEO Elon Musk in a recent interview with CNBC, stating that she believed The Boring Company’s advances in tunneling technology will help SpaceX safely house humans on Mars.

Asked more broadly about collaboration between Musk’s many ventures, ranging from Tesla to Neuralink, she noted that “The Boring Company could actually be how we house people on Mars,”

Quote
In the past, Musk has also expressed interest in and awareness of the many potential uses for advanced tunneling technologies on Mars and for settlement of the solar system more generally. Speaking at 2017’s International Space Station Research and Development Conference, the CEO was asked by an audience member whether The Boring Company was actually just a front to develop technology that would help SpaceX settle humans on Mars. He agreed, at least partially:

“I do think getting good at digging tunnels could be really helpful for Mars. It would be a different optimization for a Mars boring machine versus an Earth boring machine, [but] there’s going to be a [need for a] lot of…mining in general to get raw materials [and water ice]. And then, along the way, building underground habitats where you could get radiation shielding… you could build an entire city underground if you wanted to.”

You actually asked the same question and got a response a year ago, chopsticks  ;D

A year from now, we will likely still be discussing the same topic without finding a resolution and asking why this got started in the first place. Rather than engaging in heated conversations about Elon's company on Earth, let's wait for official announcements from him or SpaceX regarding their plans for tunneling on Mars. Then we can have a meaningful discussion and find solutions that SpaceX expects from us armchair engineers (LOL). This approach will prevent us from facing moderation consequences.

Tony stepping off soap box.

I think TBC is relevant to Mars, just not for making the houses, farms, common areas and so on. Mining technology absolutely will be needed for Mars. First for accessing ice (probably strip mining) then quarrying for concrete and masonry and finally for accessing mineral resources. Certainly some mines can be repurposed for habitation, especially for raising children to adulthood.

Since Martian bedrock is likely highly jointed to hundreds of metres (based on orbital photos of cliffs), very simple mining techniques can be used, such as radial-axial splitting tools, which are basically a 20th century version of hammer and wedges. They are very light compared to tunnel boring machines and can be mounted on a robotic platform, and swapped out for other tools such as foam injectors. You can afford to have several and teleoperate them from your basecamp.

Splitters also doesn't require a lot of water, which TBMs do need to slurry out the cuttings. If anything, I'd like to see something from TBC like semi-autonomous mining robots... though it's not like those things don't already exist.

Tangent: recent studies have shown that lunar ice is likely quite abundant but probably buried beneath dozens to hundreds of metres of ejecta blankets in the polar craters. So deep underground mining could be necessary on the Moon, and would be a great way to test mining technology with zero/low water in low gravity and full/near-vacuum.

Offline Greg Hullender

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 600
  • Seattle
    • Rocket Stack Rank
  • Liked: 440
  • Likes Given: 332
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #49 on: 12/01/2023 01:40 pm »
I think TBC is relevant to Mars . . . .

Since Martian bedrock is likely highly jointed to hundreds of metres (based on orbital photos of cliffs), very simple mining techniques can be used . . . .

[They] also [don't] require a lot of water, which TBMs do need to slurry out the cuttings. If anything, I'd like to see something from TBC like semi-autonomous mining robots... though it's not like those things don't already exist.
You start by saying TBC is relevant to Mars, but then you offer evidence that they're not. The big, complicated, water-dependent machines that TBC is working on are not needed on Mars, where "very simple techniques" can be used instead.

Is there any reason TBC would want to develop semi-autonomous mining robots on Earth? Is there any reason the supplier of mining machines for a Mars colony needs to be TBC? I think the answer to both questions is "no." If that's true, then this thread should probably be locked. It's had a couple of years to try to prove relevance, but it hasn't done so. A thread on Martian resource extraction (including mining) might be interesting though.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2023 01:41 pm by Greg Hullender »

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #50 on: 12/01/2023 07:24 pm »
Fact is that there's no other place on the internet where TBC is discussed to this degree and detail, not even on X.  Chris so far has been very kind in allowing this thread and I hope that he continues his tolerance, despite the periodic detour into pointless arguments.

Tunnel boring machine technology has relevance both to the moon and Mars, but the extent of relevance is not yet known.  Opinions appear to vary.  A discussion of ring segment thickness and composition on the moon and Mars would be interesting to me.  For the habitats, I would wish for the option of somewhat larger tunnel diameter than the current product.

Overall, I'm not sure that road headers are inferior to TBMs for moon and Mars construction.  But this seems like a good thread to discuss such things.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2023 07:31 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #51 on: 12/01/2023 07:47 pm »
Is there any reason TBC would want to develop semi-autonomous mining robots on Earth?

So far, the design contemplates teleoperation.  No workers in the hole.  Below is a picture of the teleoperation command center container.

Beyond that, we can only speculate.  Maybe Musk doesn't even know.  As he likes to say, automation of manufacturing is the absolute last step in the product development process.

https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1703590161001730521
« Last Edit: 12/01/2023 08:01 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 610
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #52 on: 12/01/2023 09:25 pm »
The road header will have its place on Mars alongside the TBM.  Both are good at what they do, what they are designed for.  TBM makes a main tunnel and the road header follows behind digging side tunnels and basically any other space required.

IMHO of course.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2023 09:28 pm by MickQ »

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #53 on: 12/01/2023 09:29 pm »
Proof that this thread belongs on NSF...

https://shop.boringcompany.com/products/tunnel-mars-t-shirt

Online DigitalMan

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1666
  • Liked: 1167
  • Likes Given: 76
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #54 on: 12/01/2023 09:41 pm »
There was mention years ago of microwaving lunar soil to create brick like material, I’d love to know whether you could integrate that with a tunneling machine to make tunnels in the moon.

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 7774
  • Likes Given: 7282
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #55 on: 12/02/2023 12:53 am »
« Last Edit: 12/02/2023 04:12 am by catdlr »
Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47311
  • UK
    • Plan 28
  • Liked: 80117
  • Likes Given: 36283
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #56 on: 12/02/2023 03:35 am »
https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1730807576139358420

Quote
On the cradle!

Prufrock-1 has officially completed the Westgate-2 tunnel. This is the 4th tunnel Prufrock-1 has constructed in Vegas, and the 7th overall Vegas Loop tunnel (other 3 tunnels were completed using Godot and Prufrock-2).

Open to the general public in Q1 2024!

@WestgateVegas @LVCVA

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 7774
  • Likes Given: 7282
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #57 on: 12/02/2023 03:46 am »


Quote
On the cradle!

Prufrock-1 has officially completed the Westgate-2 tunnel. This is the 4th tunnel Prufrock-1 has constructed in Vegas, and the 7th overall Vegas Loop tunnel (other 3 tunnels were completed using Godot and Prufrock-2).

Open to the general public in Q1 2024!

@WestgateVegas @LVCVA

When this tunnel is completed it needs a sign that spells out "Tunnel to Mars"    ;)
« Last Edit: 12/02/2023 03:47 am by catdlr »
Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline Twark_Main

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3571
  • Technically we ALL live in space
  • Liked: 1856
  • Likes Given: 1178
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #58 on: 12/02/2023 03:52 am »
Proof that this thread belongs on NSF...

https://shop.boringcompany.com/products/tunnel-mars-t-shirt

Wow, I stand corrected!!

Eh, "TBC has always secretly been a Mars company" is a popular conspiracy theory. It's wrong, but it's also popular.

The fact that TBC made a shirt doesn't mean the conspiracy theory is correct, it just means they decided to cash in on it.  ;)
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #59 on: 12/02/2023 09:38 am »
Proof that this thread belongs on NSF...

https://shop.boringcompany.com/products/tunnel-mars-t-shirt

Wow, I stand corrected!!

Eh, "TBC has always secretly been a Mars company" is a popular conspiracy theory. It's wrong, but it's also popular.

The fact that TBC made a shirt doesn't mean the conspiracy theory is correct, it just means they decided to cash in on it.  ;)
So you're supporting the conspiracy theory that their secret plan to revenue is moichendizing. 

I think within 10 years of the first Mars launch there will be a boring machine on Mars.
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline blasphemer

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 186
  • Slovakia
  • Liked: 140
  • Likes Given: 1074
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #60 on: 12/02/2023 12:19 pm »
If cutting into bedrock would any tunnel liners be needed ?

How would an ISRU Mars tunnel liner look like?

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #61 on: 12/02/2023 02:41 pm »
Yonathan Reches of Missile Command assumes that water is needed for concrete, by the way.  Various concrete types for the red planet compared.

For the moon, I wonder whether there are more water-thrifty ways of going about it.  Short term, a mound of solar-panel-covered regolith placed around Starship spacescrapers would be sufficient (essentially a vertical tunnel lined with stainless steel).  Probably a grout substitute to help minimize leakage, perhaps repurposing any Whipple shield or "box within a box" that exists on crew Starship.  Over time, tunneling between the spacescrapers could be warranted, originating at the bases of the Starships.

Quote
Concrete on Mars: Options, challenges, and solutions for binder-based construction on the Red Planet

Introduction
The colonization of Mars is a rapidly-evolving field of research and interest. As part of broader efforts to establish a human presence on the Red Planet, NASA is preparing to launch the Mars 2020 Rover [1], and SpaceX intends to begin manned missions starting in 2024 [2]. One of the crucial needs of a Martian settlement will be the construction of safe and durable structures from locally-produced materials [3,4]. Specifically, concrete has been consistently suggested as an important structural material, and a large variety of formulations and methods have been proposed [[4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13]]. The successful application of concrete on the Red Planet will require a comparative review of the various options, and an analysis of their suitability to the unique conditions of the Martian environment (illustrated in Fig. 1). This paper examines the options, challenges, and solutions for the production and performance of concrete on the Martian surface and near-surface with respect to the following: binders, availability of water, energy sources, aggregates, handling and properties of fresh concrete, structural and habitability requirements, and durability.

The binders that are examined are plaster of Paris (PoP) [3,7], ordinary Portland cement (OPC) [[3], [4], [5], [6],12,13], alkali-activated cement (AAC) [5,6,14], geopolymer cement (GC) [15], Mg- and Si-based binder (MSBB) [8], elemental sulfur (ES) [[9], [10], [11], [12]], and water (which would bind by freezing). The synthesis of any of these binders will require considerations of energy and raw material availability. For most of them, the production of concrete will require an abundant and high-quality supply of water, energy, and aggregates.

The Martian environment gives rise to much different conditions than those found on Earth for fresh, curing, and hardened concrete. The Martian gravity is 0.38G, and the average atmospheric pressure is 0.006 atm [16]. The surface is the target of much greater meteoric activity and radiation than Earth [4]. The temperature averages roughly −63 °C, and varies greatly based on location, season, and time of day [16]. These conditions will redefine the processes of mixing, casting, compaction, and curing. The entire built environment will need to be reconfigured to adequately support a different set of loads and weathering mechanisms than on Earth, while protecting inhabitants from the exposure hazards of Mars.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0958946518312885
« Last Edit: 12/02/2023 03:30 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline meadows.st

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 158
  • Toronto ON, Canada
  • Liked: 90
  • Likes Given: 5296
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #62 on: 12/02/2023 03:30 pm »
If cutting into bedrock would any tunnel liners be needed ?
How would an ISRU Mars tunnel liner look like?
Need a Martian geologist, tunnel engineer and a cement guy to figure out  what kind of liner you might need and could make out of the tunneled material.

Agreed.  Tunnel liners are *primarily* designed to keep out water, prevent material falling into the tunnel especially due to seismicity, and create uniform/convenient geometry.  (This is an over simplification of course but likely covers >80% of the purpose(s)).  The basic design considerations for tunnels on Mars are, as many have commented above, significantly different than on earth - particularly the presence of liquid water and seismicity. Thus, to me, the first question is *if* tunnel lining is required. As a data point, all the hardrock mines I have seen do not use tunnel liners and I'm aware the use case is significantly different than a transport tunnel for the general public.  If the answer to that question is yes, then ISRU, at least in the first several decades of development, is the only viable option for the source of materials to use for liner material. 

I'm not a geologist but I suspect there is precious little limestone on Mars 🤓 so the raw materials for traditional Portland cement (OPC) would have to be produced from different compounds or some analog/equivalent cement will have to be invented from the available raw materials.  Edit: see RedLineTrain's post referencing equivalent materials

Assuming OPC can be produced, I recall experimenting ~30 years ago with extremely low water content, ultra high strength (>90 MPa) concrete but it required forming under extreme pressure to ensure the hydration reaction would happen.  In other words, it's possible but very energy intensive.

In any event, I'm excited for the possibility of tunneling on Mars!
« Last Edit: 12/02/2023 03:33 pm by meadows.st »
“A little rudder far from the rocks is a lot better than a lot of rudder close to the rocks.” L. David Marquet

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #63 on: 12/02/2023 03:44 pm »
There was mention years ago of microwaving lunar soil to create brick like material, I’d love to know whether you could integrate that with a tunneling machine to make tunnels in the moon.

In an October German/Austrian article, attached, laser, solar, and microwave sintering of lunar regolith are discussed.
« Last Edit: 12/02/2023 03:45 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline KSHavre

  • KSHavre
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 127
  • Portland, OR
  • Liked: 92
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #64 on: 12/02/2023 03:54 pm »
Proof that this thread belongs on NSF...

https://shop.boringcompany.com/products/tunnel-mars-t-shirt

Wow, I stand corrected!!

Eh, "TBC has always secretly been a Mars company" is a popular conspiracy theory. It's wrong, but it's also popular.

The fact that TBC made a shirt doesn't mean the conspiracy theory is correct, it just means they decided to cash in on it.  ;)
So you're supporting the conspiracy theory that their secret plan to revenue is moichendizing. 

I think within 10 years of the first Mars launch there will be a boring machine on Mars.

I remember getting smacked down for a similar conversation before Starlink launched... I speculated the earth constellation was just practice for Mars. Besides the Starlink naysayers ("it will never succeed let alone make money"!?), I was roundly criticized for connecting Elon's earthly enterprises and his vision to build a Mars city for 1 million people.

Pretend you are a capitalist and have an audacious goal that took more money than the richest human being on earth, or any government was willing to spend, to achieve. To maximize your R&D dollars and garner more capital to fund more R&D, you would focus on the technologies to achieve your audacious goal.

Conspiracy theory? Hmmm... How about monetizing your tech debt investments.  ;)

There was discussion of how to communicate between the city and outlying ISRU activities, and even other bases? Burying cables has cost, and miles of poles with wires strung is ugly let alone the cables themselves. Launching a few thousand satellites was considered too audacious (sic).

We keep talking about how to build structures, and to connect them. If you can prove a tunnel can be a quick and low(er) cost early basecamp and then a safe/climate and atmospheric controlled environment to connect places (above or below how much $ do you have?).

On earth, missile silos are being converted into cataclysm survival homes. https://www.curbed.com/2022/07/missile-silo-real-estate-listing.html

Underground cities that were built to survive past global disasters: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/derinkuyu-turkey-underground-city-strange-maps

Even Houston is going underground to escape the heat https://365thingsinhouston.com/2017/05/18/downtown-tunnels-underground-houston/

And, Norway found it cheaper and quicker to use tunnels to get around than up and over all the mountains: https://www.campervannorway.com/blog/driving-norway/tunnels-in-norway

One persons conspiracy theory is another's: "well, duh..."


Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #65 on: 12/02/2023 04:32 pm »
Not a Martian geologist (yet), but have been a Terran geologist for over 30 years and have been following missions since Pathfinder...tunneling substrate at each landing site and area:

Vikings and Pathfinder: unconsolidated flood deposits, ejecta, and eolian sands and dust
Spirit: unconsolidated flood deposits, ejecta, eolian sands and dust, older indurated volcanics and volcaniclastics fractured by impacts, and regolith
Opportunity: indurated, bedded hematitic, sulfate evaporite deposits, older indurated eolian sandstones, variably fractured by impacts, eolian sands and dust
Phoenix: eolian dust, ice
Curiosity: indurated conglomerates, sandstones, and mudstones, indurated eolian sulfate deposits, eolian sands and dust
Perseverance: intrusive and extrusive igneous rocks, indurated sandstones and mudstones, eolian sands and dust
Insight: unconsolidated ejecta, eolian sands and dust

The Mars landscape is old (billions of years in most places, hundreds of millions of years around the big volcanic complexes) and battered by impacts. Tunneling in lowland areas will have to deal with loose, unconsolidated, lumpy, somewhat crusty ground conditions, or indurated, consolidated sedimentary rocks or soft, easily excavated sulfates, while highlands will be characterized by fractured igneous or indurated sedimentary rocks. Although there is a lot of loose material at the surface, the Phoenix heat flow probe issues, and well as scooping problems at other landers, suggests that there is compaction and cementation present in these dry substrates just below the active eolian material. No one tunneling technique would be appropriate for all these areas.
« Last Edit: 12/02/2023 06:11 pm by tdemko »
--
Tim Demko

Online DanClemmensen

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5289
  • Earth (currently)
  • Liked: 4138
  • Likes Given: 1663
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #66 on: 12/02/2023 04:53 pm »
Not a Martian geologist (yet), but have been an Terran geologist for over 30 years and have been following missions since Pathfinder...tunneling substrate at each landing site and area:

Vikings and Pathfinder: unconsolidated flood deposits, ejecta, and eolian sands and dust
Spirit: unconsolidated flood deposits, ejecta, eolian sands and dust, older indurated volcanics and volcaniclastics fractured by impacts, and regolith
Opportunity: indurated, bedded hematitic, sulfate evaporite deposits, older indurated eolian sandstones, variably fractured by impacts, eolian sands and dust
Phoenix: eolian dust, ice
Curiosity: indurated conglomerates, sandstones, and mudstones, indurated eolian sulfate deposits, eolian sands and dust
Perseverance: intrusive and extrusive igneous rocks, indurated sandstones and mudstones, eolian sands and dust
Insight: unconsolidated ejecta, eolian sands and dust

The Mars landscape is old (billions of years in most places, hundreds of millions of years around the big volcanic complexes) and battered by impacts. Tunneling in lowland areas will have to deal with loose, unconsolidated, lumpy, somewhat crusty ground conditions, or indurated, consolidated sedimentary rocks or soft, easily excavated sulfates, while highlands will be characterized by fractured igneous or indurated sedimentary rocks. Although there is a lot of loose material at the surface, the Phoenix heat flow probe issues, and well as scooping problems at other landers, suggests that there is compaction and cementation present in these dry substrates just below the active eolian material. No one tunneling technique would be appropriate for all these areas.
Thanks for this!
I am not any sort of geologist. However, I saw one commentary that stated that there is a fair amount of loess on Mars. This makes sense, as loess forms from windborne dust:
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loess
a Google search for "loess on Mars" brings up lots of NASA and scholarly reports.

Loess is ideal for tunneling and cavern excavation in general, and in the year 1556, a large percentage of the population of Shaanxi province in China lived in hand-excavated housing. Those folks built extensive and elaborate dwellings, not crude caves. It looks like an ideal place to use a boring machine: fairly soft uniform rock. One small problem: It's not really very strong and an earthquake can destroy the excavations. That was the year and place where the greatest loss of life due to earthquake occurred:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1556_Shaanxi_earthquake

Question 1: is this loess terrain on Mars in the right places?

Question 2: can modern techniques be used cost-effectively to line tunnels in loess to prevent collapse in earthquakes?

Offline OTV Booster

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5059
  • Terra is my nation; currently Kansas
  • Liked: 3514
  • Likes Given: 5932
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #67 on: 12/02/2023 05:57 pm »
If cutting into bedrock would any tunnel liners be needed ?
How would an ISRU Mars tunnel liner look like?
Need a Martian geologist, tunnel engineer and a cement guy to figure out  what kind of liner you might need and could make out of the tunneled material.
One idea I've noodled is the blocks having jigsaw puzzle like tabs and indents with a flat coil of spring steel deployed from the borer on the outside of the blocks to give tensile strength. The coils spaced so each block gets two. Pressure grout voids behind the blocks. If the grouting works out the coil might be done away with.

Materials? DIIK. Depends on what they got on hand. According to this: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20190028799/downloads/20190028799.pdf[/size] Mars is rich in sulfur. Sulfur based blocks & grout?
« Last Edit: 12/02/2023 05:57 pm by OTV Booster »
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline Twark_Main

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3571
  • Technically we ALL live in space
  • Liked: 1856
  • Likes Given: 1178
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #68 on: 12/02/2023 06:52 pm »
Proof that this thread belongs on NSF...

https://shop.boringcompany.com/products/tunnel-mars-t-shirt

Wow, I stand corrected!!

Eh, "TBC has always secretly been a Mars company" is a popular conspiracy theory. It's wrong, but it's also popular.

The fact that TBC made a shirt doesn't mean the conspiracy theory is correct, it just means they decided to cash in on it.  ;)
So you're supporting the conspiracy theory that their secret plan to revenue is moichendizing. 

Obviously their plan is to make money on terrestrial tunnel systems, but thanks for the strawman.

I think within 10 years of the first Mars launch there will be a boring machine on Mars.

That's different from saying that when TBC was founded it was secretly all about Mars.
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Offline Twark_Main

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3571
  • Technically we ALL live in space
  • Liked: 1856
  • Likes Given: 1178
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #69 on: 12/02/2023 07:01 pm »
liner you... make out of the tunneled material.

There is no requirement for it to be the same material.

Most likely the liner grout, concrete, etc will come from a (specially prospected and developed) quarry dedicated to that purpose, not from the tunnel site itself. What makes a good tunnel site and that makes a good quarry are very different things. You can do a better job at both site selection tasks if you disentangle the two.

Yes Virginia, this requires adding some transport costs. :)  On Earth the economics dictate quarries be located within a few dozen kilometers of a building site, which keeps the cost manageable.
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Offline Robotbeat

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 39244
  • Minnesota
  • Liked: 25170
  • Likes Given: 12100
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #70 on: 12/02/2023 07:03 pm »
? The original claim isn’t that it was a secret, just that it’s relevant to Mars and that was/is part of its motivation and therefore why it exists on this forum.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Twark_Main

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3571
  • Technically we ALL live in space
  • Liked: 1856
  • Likes Given: 1178
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #71 on: 12/02/2023 07:05 pm »
? The original claim isn’t that it was a secret, just that it’s relevant to Mars and that was/is part of its motivation and therefore why it exists on this forum.

I don't mean to emphasize that it was necessarily "secret," just that Mars is "the real reason" TBC was founded. That's the conspiracy theory claim.
« Last Edit: 12/02/2023 07:10 pm by Twark_Main »
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Offline AnalogMan

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3427
  • Cambridge, UK
  • Liked: 1595
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #72 on: 12/02/2023 07:17 pm »
This post by speedevil from the first thread has interesting info on the possibility of making liner material using Mars material without other additives:

To drag this onto the topic of Boring on Mars.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01157-w
This is an open access paper, "Direct Formation of Structural Components Using a Martian Soil Simulant".

In short, they took mars soil simulant, heated it to 600C to dry it, and then pressed it, with no additions, and got quite strong bricks under moderate pressure. The nanoparticulate iron oxide dust seems to act as a cement.

Quote
Martian habitats are ideally constructed using only locally available soils; extant attempts to process structural materials on Mars, however, generally require additives or calcination. In this work we demonstrate that Martian soil simulant Mars-1a can be directly compressed at ambient into a strong solid without additives, highlighting a possible aspect of complete Martian in-situ resource utilization.

Flexural strength of the compact is not only determined by the compaction pressure but also significantly influenced by the lateral boundary condition of processing loading. The compression loading can be applied either quasi-statically or through impact. Nanoparticulate iron oxide (npOx), commonly detected in Martian regolith, is identified as the bonding agent. Gas permeability of compacted samples was measured to be on the order of 10−16 m2, close to that of solid rocks. The compaction procedure is adaptive to additive manufacturing.

Quote
Upon a high-pressure compression, Mars-1a particles form a strong solid at ambient, with resultant flexural strengths exceeding that of typical steel-reinforced concrete or many in situ resource utilization (ISRU) created materials formed by adding binders


If this is in fact correct, linings for a Mars tunnel might be easy to obtain simply by digging up dust, sieving it perhaps and then compressing it into tunnel liner segments. If the soil to be tunneled through contains loosely aggregated nanoparticulate iron oxide, then it may even be doable in-situ.
« Last Edit: 12/02/2023 07:25 pm by AnalogMan »

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #73 on: 12/02/2023 08:04 pm »
Not a Martian geologist (yet), but have been a Terran geologist for over 30 years and have been following missions since Pathfinder...tunneling substrate at each landing site and area:

Vikings and Pathfinder: unconsolidated flood deposits, ejecta, and eolian sands and dust
Spirit: unconsolidated flood deposits, ejecta, eolian sands and dust, older indurated volcanics and volcaniclastics fractured by impacts, and regolith
Opportunity: indurated, bedded hematitic, sulfate evaporite deposits, older indurated eolian sandstones, variably fractured by impacts, eolian sands and dust
Phoenix: eolian dust, ice
Curiosity: indurated conglomerates, sandstones, and mudstones, indurated eolian sulfate deposits, eolian sands and dust
Perseverance: intrusive and extrusive igneous rocks, indurated sandstones and mudstones, eolian sands and dust
Insight: unconsolidated ejecta, eolian sands and dust

The Mars landscape is old (billions of years in most places, hundreds of millions of years around the big volcanic complexes) and battered by impacts. Tunneling in lowland areas will have to deal with loose, unconsolidated, lumpy, somewhat crusty ground conditions, or indurated, consolidated sedimentary rocks or soft, easily excavated sulfates, while highlands will be characterized by fractured igneous or indurated sedimentary rocks. Although there is a lot of loose material at the surface, the Phoenix heat flow probe issues, and well as scooping problems at other landers, suggests that there is compaction and cementation present in these dry substrates just below the active eolian material. No one tunneling technique would be appropriate for all these areas.
How will the answer change if they bore horizontally into a mountainside?  (Or very slight upwards slope)
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #74 on: 12/02/2023 08:07 pm »
Proof that this thread belongs on NSF...

https://shop.boringcompany.com/products/tunnel-mars-t-shirt

Wow, I stand corrected!!

Eh, "TBC has always secretly been a Mars company" is a popular conspiracy theory. It's wrong, but it's also popular.

The fact that TBC made a shirt doesn't mean the conspiracy theory is correct, it just means they decided to cash in on it.  ;)
So you're supporting the conspiracy theory that their secret plan to revenue is moichendizing. 

Obviously their plan is to make money on terrestrial tunnel systems, but thanks for the strawman.

I think within 10 years of the first Mars launch there will be a boring machine on Mars.

That's different from saying that when TBC was founded it was secretly all about Mars.
I don't think it's primarily for Mars.  It's to solve terrestrial traffic problems.

I also think the boring part is absolutely aiming for Mars, and a Martian TBM is on their minds.
« Last Edit: 12/02/2023 08:45 pm by meekGee »
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline Twark_Main

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3571
  • Technically we ALL live in space
  • Liked: 1856
  • Likes Given: 1178
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #75 on: 12/02/2023 08:40 pm »
Proof that this thread belongs on NSF...

https://shop.boringcompany.com/products/tunnel-mars-t-shirt

Wow, I stand corrected!!

Eh, "TBC has always secretly been a Mars company" is a popular conspiracy theory. It's wrong, but it's also popular.

The fact that TBC made a shirt doesn't mean the conspiracy theory is correct, it just means they decided to cash in on it.  ;)
So you're supporting the conspiracy theory that their secret plan to revenue is moichendizing. 

Obviously their plan is to make money on terrestrial tunnel systems, but thanks for the strawman.

I think within 10 years of the first Mars launch there will be a boring machine on Mars.

That's different from saying that when TBC was founded it was secretly all about Mars.
I don't think it's primarily for Mars.  It's to solve terrestrial traffic problems.

I also think the boring part is absolutely aiming for Mars, and a Martian TBM is on the is minds.

Agreed. It's dual-use, but the second use wasn't the primary motivation.
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Offline Twark_Main

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3571
  • Technically we ALL live in space
  • Liked: 1856
  • Likes Given: 1178
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #76 on: 12/02/2023 08:48 pm »
Not a Martian geologist (yet), but have been a Terran geologist for over 30 years and have been following missions since Pathfinder...tunneling substrate at each landing site and area:

Vikings and Pathfinder: unconsolidated flood deposits, ejecta, and eolian sands and dust
Spirit: unconsolidated flood deposits, ejecta, eolian sands and dust, older indurated volcanics and volcaniclastics fractured by impacts, and regolith
Opportunity: indurated, bedded hematitic, sulfate evaporite deposits, older indurated eolian sandstones, variably fractured by impacts, eolian sands and dust
Phoenix: eolian dust, ice
Curiosity: indurated conglomerates, sandstones, and mudstones, indurated eolian sulfate deposits, eolian sands and dust
Perseverance: intrusive and extrusive igneous rocks, indurated sandstones and mudstones, eolian sands and dust
Insight: unconsolidated ejecta, eolian sands and dust

The Mars landscape is old (billions of years in most places, hundreds of millions of years around the big volcanic complexes) and battered by impacts. Tunneling in lowland areas will have to deal with loose, unconsolidated, lumpy, somewhat crusty ground conditions, or indurated, consolidated sedimentary rocks or soft, easily excavated sulfates, while highlands will be characterized by fractured igneous or indurated sedimentary rocks. Although there is a lot of loose material at the surface, the Phoenix heat flow probe issues, and well as scooping problems at other landers, suggests that there is compaction and cementation present in these dry substrates just below the active eolian material. No one tunneling technique would be appropriate for all these areas.

Instead of looking at previous unmanned probe landing sites (which were chosen for different reasons), perhaps it's better to focus on the SpaceX candidate landing sites.


https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-begins-hunt-for-starship-landing-sites-on-mars/
« Last Edit: 12/02/2023 09:33 pm by Twark_Main »
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Online DanClemmensen

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5289
  • Earth (currently)
  • Liked: 4138
  • Likes Given: 1663
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #77 on: 12/02/2023 10:42 pm »
Loess is ideal for tunneling and cavern excavation in general, and in the year 1556, a large percentage of the population of Shaanxi province in China lived in hand-excavated housing. Those folks built extensive and elaborate dwellings, not crude caves. It looks like an ideal place to use a boring machine: fairly soft uniform rock. One small problem: It's not really very strong and an earthquake can destroy the excavations. That was the year and place where the greatest loss of life due to earthquake occurred:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1556_Shaanxi_earthquake

Question 1: is this loess terrain on Mars in the right places?

Question 2: can modern techniques be used cost-effectively to line tunnels in loess to prevent collapse in earthquakes?
After further reading, I'm a bit embarassed. in 2006, 40 million Chinese were living in dwellings carved from loess. I suspect our Chinese colleagues here are quite familiar with this and may be amused that most Americans are unaware of loess dwellings.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaodong
Perhaps Chinese engineers would be more inclined to use boring techniques on Mars than American engineers.

Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #78 on: 12/03/2023 03:07 am »

Instead of looking at previous unmanned probe landing sites (which were chosen for different reasons), perhaps it's better to focus on the SpaceX candidate landing sites.

https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-begins-hunt-for-starship-landing-sites-on-mars/

Each one of those sites is characterized by patterned ground, which, here on Earth, is associated with periglacial conditions. On Mars, these terrains are related to the presence of ices, either in the polar regions or lower latitude areas that have been glaciated in the past. There is evidence that precession of the axis of rotation of Mars ranges over a greater angle than that of Earth and that there are remnants of a previous episode of "lower latitude" glaciation, including buried and loess-mantled glaciers. SpaceX was looking at these sites because they may have easily-accessed water resources. Tunneling in ice, or more likely, dirty ice with a lot of interbedded and dispersed dust, might be a very different process than that in rock or soil, maybe with a significant component of heating/melting/sublimating, although solid water ice might also excavate like rock with a TBM at ambient Martian temperatures.
« Last Edit: 12/04/2023 02:13 am by tdemko »
--
Tim Demko

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 610
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #79 on: 12/03/2023 03:13 am »
Great to have you with us Tim.  Thanks.

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 610
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #80 on: 12/03/2023 03:48 am »
I have to admit that I don’t know this but can a TBM reverse out of a hole or does it have to keep digging forwards ?

Offline chopsticks

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1052
  • Québec, Canada
  • Liked: 1074
  • Likes Given: 164
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #81 on: 12/03/2023 04:24 am »
I have to admit that I don’t know this but can a TBM reverse out of a hole or does it have to keep digging forwards ?
Not all TBMs are made the same way, but I know that some (a lot I think?) cases they are actually just left in the ground once they reach the end of their use. I believe that is the case for one of the subway extensions in Toronto at least. I'm sure it depends on a number of factors though as to whether the thing can be disassembled and whether it's worth it. The boring company's TBMs can "porpoise", but they are small TBMs. Large ones are sooner just left in the ground.

Reece from the YouTube channel RM Transit talks about this in a tour he got in Toronto of a new tunnel being dug with a pretty large TBM. I'm too lazy to find the video, but it's very interesting and shows the thing working.
« Last Edit: 12/03/2023 04:25 am by chopsticks »

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 7774
  • Likes Given: 7282
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #82 on: 12/03/2023 04:52 am »
I have to admit that I don’t know this but can a TBM reverse out of a hole or does it have to keep digging forwards ?


A typical TBM lays the liner behind it as it bores ahead, making it impossible to track back. As mentioned in the post above, it's moles up toward the surface or just left at the end of the tunnel.

Here is one coming up from below and then lifted onto platform ready for it's next job.

https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1726857099794346463

https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1727196708957000042

https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1730807576139358420
« Last Edit: 12/03/2023 05:02 am by catdlr »
Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline Emmettvonbrown

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 188
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #83 on: 12/03/2023 04:56 am »
I have to admit that I don’t know this but can a TBM reverse out of a hole or does it have to keep digging forwards ?
Not all TBMs are made the same way, but I know that some (a lot I think?) cases they are actually just left in the ground once they reach the end of their use. I believe that is the case for one of the subway extensions in Toronto at least. I'm sure it depends on a number of factors though as to whether the thing can be disassembled and whether it's worth it. The boring company's TBMs can "porpoise", but they are small TBMs. Large ones are sooner just left in the ground.

Reece from the YouTube channel RM Transit talks about this in a tour he got in Toronto of a new tunnel being dug with a pretty large TBM. I'm too lazy to find the video, but it's very interesting and shows the thing working.

I remember (from 30 years ago) that, for the Channel tunnel, TBMs were, indeed, left in the ground. The French and the British were digging from their respective sides and, once face to face and junction achieve, one TBM had to go. Think they buried it below the tunnel.

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #84 on: 12/03/2023 05:32 am »
I have to admit that I don’t know this but can a TBM reverse out of a hole or does it have to keep digging forwards ?
Not all TBMs are made the same way, but I know that some (a lot I think?) cases they are actually just left in the ground once they reach the end of their use. I believe that is the case for one of the subway extensions in Toronto at least. I'm sure it depends on a number of factors though as to whether the thing can be disassembled and whether it's worth it. The boring company's TBMs can "porpoise", but they are small TBMs. Large ones are sooner just left in the ground.

Reece from the YouTube channel RM Transit talks about this in a tour he got in Toronto of a new tunnel being dug with a pretty large TBM. I'm too lazy to find the video, but it's very interesting and shows the thing working.

I remember (from 30 years ago) that, for the Channel tunnel, TBMs were, indeed, left in the ground. The French and the British were digging from their respective sides and, once face to face and junction achieve, one TBM had to go. Think they buried it below the tunnel.
If you bore into a mountainside, you can come out the other side if you want to avoid large U turns.

ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline mandrewa

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 538
  • Liked: 440
  • Likes Given: 8123
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #85 on: 12/03/2023 11:44 am »
Loess is ideal for tunneling and cavern excavation in general, and in the year 1556, a large percentage of the population of Shaanxi province in China lived in hand-excavated housing. Those folks built extensive and elaborate dwellings, not crude caves.


My father saw that.  People were still living in houses they had dug into the ground in the loess in Shaanxi Province in 1984. 

I wish I could quote him.  But I remember him saying something about holes in the ground with TV antennas poking out of them.

Offline rsdavis9

Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #86 on: 12/03/2023 11:49 am »

Instead of looking at previous unmanned probe landing sites (which were chosen for different reasons), perhaps it's better to focus on the SpaceX candidate landing sites.

https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-begins-hunt-for-starship-landing-sites-on-mars/

Each one of those sites is characterized by patterned ground, which, here on Earth, is associated with periglacial conditions. On Mars, these terrains are related to the presence of ices, either in the polar regions or lower latitude areas that have been glaciated in the past. There is evidence that precession of the axis of rotation of Mars ranges over a greater angle than that of Earth and that that are remnants of a previous episode of "lower latitude" glaciation, including buried and loess-mantled glaciers. SpaceX was looking at these sites because they may have easily-accessed water resources. Tunneling in ice, or more likely, dirty ice with a lot of interbedded and dispersed dust, might be a very different process than that in rock or soil, maybe with a significant component of heating/melting/sublimating, although solid water ice might also excavate like rock with a TBM at ambient Martian temperatures.

Tunnels in "mostly" glacier would lend themselves at water sprayed on the surface and freezing as the lining technique. You just have to keep your habitat or whatever is in the tunnel from heating it too much.

In Boston there are pilings for big buildings that never reached bedrock so they froze the soil and keep it frozen for the required strength.
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
Same engines. Design once. Same vehicle. Design once. Reusable. Build once.

Offline OTV Booster

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5059
  • Terra is my nation; currently Kansas
  • Liked: 3514
  • Likes Given: 5932
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #87 on: 12/03/2023 07:26 pm »
Proof that this thread belongs on NSF...

https://shop.boringcompany.com/products/tunnel-mars-t-shirt

Wow, I stand corrected!!

Eh, "TBC has always secretly been a Mars company" is a popular conspiracy theory. It's wrong, but it's also popular.

The fact that TBC made a shirt doesn't mean the conspiracy theory is correct, it just means they decided to cash in on it.  ;)
So you're supporting the conspiracy theory that their secret plan to revenue is moichendizing. 

Obviously their plan is to make money on terrestrial tunnel systems, but thanks for the strawman.

I think within 10 years of the first Mars launch there will be a boring machine on Mars.

That's different from saying that when TBC was founded it was secretly all about Mars.
I don't think it's primarily for Mars.  It's to solve terrestrial traffic problems.

I also think the boring part is absolutely aiming for Mars, and a Martian TBM is on their minds.
No human motive is pure and untainted by other motives. Without proof, my gut says that the initial motive was for Elon to dodge traffic. He has mars on the brain and saw the possible synergistic connection between earth tunneling and mars needs somewhere between milliseconds and minutes later.
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #88 on: 12/03/2023 09:10 pm »
I have to admit that I don’t know this but can a TBM reverse out of a hole or does it have to keep digging forwards ?

No, no TBMs of which I am aware have such a capability.  You can see why when you look at this picture.  The TBM has a slightly larger diameter than the tunnel liner.

I don't know what they will do when they want to construct a tunnel spur.  From what I have seen, TBC has not yet constructed one.  Rather, they have constructed cut-and-cover junctions and roundabouts.

https://twitter.com/Mic_VegasSphere/status/1729259227947172066/photo/1
« Last Edit: 12/03/2023 09:39 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 610
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #89 on: 12/04/2023 02:56 am »
I have to admit that I don’t know this but can a TBM reverse out of a hole or does it have to keep digging forwards ?
Not all TBMs are made the same way, but I know that some (a lot I think?) cases they are actually just left in the ground once they reach the end of their use. I believe that is the case for one of the subway extensions in Toronto at least. I'm sure it depends on a number of factors though as to whether the thing can be disassembled and whether it's worth it. The boring company's TBMs can "porpoise", but they are small TBMs. Large ones are sooner just left in the ground.

Reece from the YouTube channel RM Transit talks about this in a tour he got in Toronto of a new tunnel being dug with a pretty large TBM. I'm too lazy to find the video, but it's very interesting and shows the thing working.

Yes, I know of one that was used at a mine site here in Queensland.  They bored nearly 3 kilometres to access the ore body then had the machine dig its own grave and parked it off to the side.  The miner that told me said they worked out that the first years production would pay for the borer so it just wasn’t worth extracting it.

The reason I asked is I was thinking about boring in to something like 15 or 20 meters then backing the machine out before wheeling or sliding in a hab module.  A relatively quick way to get shielded space that could be pressurised later by fitting an airlock in the hole.

Offline chopsticks

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1052
  • Québec, Canada
  • Liked: 1074
  • Likes Given: 164
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #90 on: 12/04/2023 03:47 am »
I think that a 15 - 20 metre hole would be better dug using explosives and/or diggers.

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 610
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #91 on: 12/04/2023 06:28 am »
Substitute rocket for tbm and this recovery/reusabilty conversation starts looking familiar.

Was that something I said ??   I have thought of doing that before 🤔

Offline Hobbes-22

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 938
  • Acme Engineering
    • Acme Engineering
  • Liked: 583
  • Likes Given: 482
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #92 on: 12/04/2023 09:23 am »
I have to admit that I don’t know this but can a TBM reverse out of a hole or does it have to keep digging forwards ?

No, no TBMs of which I am aware have such a capability.  You can see why when you look at this picture.  The TBM has a slightly larger diameter than the tunnel liner.

I don't know what they will do when they want to construct a tunnel spur.  From what I have seen, TBC has not yet constructed one.  Rather, they have constructed cut-and-cover junctions and roundabouts.

https://twitter.com/Mic_VegasSphere/status/1729259227947172066/photo/1

Most of the TBM is inside the finished tunnel and can in principle be recovered. The only parts bigger than the tunnel are the boring head and the jacks that push the TBM forwards by pushing against the concrete liner.

Offline Lampyridae

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2618
  • South Africa
  • Liked: 936
  • Likes Given: 1983
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #93 on: 12/04/2023 09:56 am »
Loess is ideal for tunneling and cavern excavation in general, and in the year 1556, a large percentage of the population of Shaanxi province in China lived in hand-excavated housing. Those folks built extensive and elaborate dwellings, not crude caves. It looks like an ideal place to use a boring machine: fairly soft uniform rock. One small problem: It's not really very strong and an earthquake can destroy the excavations. That was the year and place where the greatest loss of life due to earthquake occurred:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1556_Shaanxi_earthquake

Question 1: is this loess terrain on Mars in the right places?

Question 2: can modern techniques be used cost-effectively to line tunnels in loess to prevent collapse in earthquakes?
After further reading, I'm a bit embarassed. in 2006, 40 million Chinese were living in dwellings carved from loess. I suspect our Chinese colleagues here are quite familiar with this and may be amused that most Americans are unaware of loess dwellings.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaodong
Perhaps Chinese engineers would be more inclined to use boring techniques on Mars than American engineers.

Those are hillside dwellings. For the true subterranean city, you need to go to Turkey:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_underground_city

Starting from the 7th to 8th centuries, up to 20 000 people lived there, generally Christians escaping wars and persecutions of one sort or the other. It was inhabited right up until 1923 when Turkey kicked them all out and they went to Greece.

Derinkuyu sounds like a great name for a Mars city, BTW.

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #94 on: 12/04/2023 03:22 pm »
Most of the TBM is inside the finished tunnel and can in principle be recovered. The only parts bigger than the tunnel are the boring head and the jacks that push the TBM forwards by pushing against the concrete liner.

Yes, good point.  If you just want to retrieve some useful bits of the TBM, that is doable.  If you want to retrieve a wholly-intact TBM, or to redirect it to dig a spur, it is not doable.
« Last Edit: 12/04/2023 03:23 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline blasphemer

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 186
  • Slovakia
  • Liked: 140
  • Likes Given: 1074
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #95 on: 12/04/2023 03:29 pm »
I do not believe Boring Company has to do with Mars, at least not yet and also not when it was initially established. I also do not believe a TBM will be used on Mars. Tunnels are a linear structure. They are for connecting two distant points for transportation purposes. Not for habitation!

I think underground Martian habitats will be built using a roadheader, or something similar. There is no need for a TBM at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadheader

Offline OTV Booster

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5059
  • Terra is my nation; currently Kansas
  • Liked: 3514
  • Likes Given: 5932
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #96 on: 12/04/2023 09:34 pm »
Most of the TBM is inside the finished tunnel and can in principle be recovered. The only parts bigger than the tunnel are the boring head and the jacks that push the TBM forwards by pushing against the concrete liner.

Yes, good point.  If you just want to retrieve some useful bits of the TBM, that is doable.  If you want to retrieve a wholly-intact TBM, or to redirect it to dig a spur, it is not doable.
As pointed out, the cutting head and hydraulic rams won't allow a backup but what if...


The rams are easy to change. Keep them within the inner diameter of the liner and put a beefy tab on the end. Rotate tab up to bear against the liner face. Rotate tab down to fit within the liner.


The cutting face is harder. Way back in this thread somebody suggested a segmented cutting face. I don't remember the context, but something along these lines might work. An alternative could be sub diameter cutters that oscillate about like an orbital sander and have a stowed position that allows withdrawal.


The earth tunnels will need splits for exiting and changing tunnels. The LV Loop routing looks as if this is expected. A backup capable boring machine is one approach.


An alternative might be second, subdiameter borer that naturally fits inside the liner and makes slightly smaller tunnels for splits. A split into a station could stay subdiameter until it reentries the main tunnel. A split between tunnels would do the same. An entrance to the system would start subdiameter and join into a full bore tunnel. Exit works the opposite.


It's doubtful mars would need underground highways for many synods but a series of parallel underground habitat galleries makes sense for expansion. The subdiameter approach wouldn't work where there are multiple branchings but the retractable approach looks doable.
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Online DanClemmensen

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5289
  • Earth (currently)
  • Liked: 4138
  • Likes Given: 1663
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #97 on: 12/04/2023 09:48 pm »
Loess is ideal for tunneling and cavern excavation in general, and in the year 1556, a large percentage of the population of Shaanxi province in China lived in hand-excavated housing. Those folks built extensive and elaborate dwellings, not crude caves. It looks like an ideal place to use a boring machine: fairly soft uniform rock. One small problem: It's not really very strong and an earthquake can destroy the excavations. That was the year and place where the greatest loss of life due to earthquake occurred:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1556_Shaanxi_earthquake

Question 1: is this loess terrain on Mars in the right places?

Question 2: can modern techniques be used cost-effectively to line tunnels in loess to prevent collapse in earthquakes?
After further reading, I'm a bit embarassed. in 2006, 40 million Chinese were living in dwellings carved from loess. I suspect our Chinese colleagues here are quite familiar with this and may be amused that most Americans are unaware of loess dwellings.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaodong
Perhaps Chinese engineers would be more inclined to use boring techniques on Mars than American engineers.

Those are hillside dwellings. For the true subterranean city, you need to go to Turkey:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_underground_city

Starting from the 7th to 8th centuries, up to 20 000 people lived there, generally Christians escaping wars and persecutions of one sort or the other. It was inhabited right up until 1923 when Turkey kicked them all out and they went to Greece.

Derinkuyu sounds like a great name for a Mars city, BTW.
No the Chinese dwellings are not all in cliffs or hillsides. Many are in flat land. They just dig a bid square open courtyard and then dig the dwellings laterally in the walls of the courtyard. Also, take another look at the numbers:
   1) The Chinese are still living there today.
   2) There are 40 MILLION Chinese living in these dwellings. That is more than the population of California.

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #98 on: 12/05/2023 12:52 am »
Loess is ideal for tunneling and cavern excavation in general, and in the year 1556, a large percentage of the population of Shaanxi province in China lived in hand-excavated housing. Those folks built extensive and elaborate dwellings, not crude caves. It looks like an ideal place to use a boring machine: fairly soft uniform rock. One small problem: It's not really very strong and an earthquake can destroy the excavations. That was the year and place where the greatest loss of life due to earthquake occurred:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1556_Shaanxi_earthquake

Question 1: is this loess terrain on Mars in the right places?

Question 2: can modern techniques be used cost-effectively to line tunnels in loess to prevent collapse in earthquakes?
After further reading, I'm a bit embarassed. in 2006, 40 million Chinese were living in dwellings carved from loess. I suspect our Chinese colleagues here are quite familiar with this and may be amused that most Americans are unaware of loess dwellings.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaodong
Perhaps Chinese engineers would be more inclined to use boring techniques on Mars than American engineers.

Those are hillside dwellings. For the true subterranean city, you need to go to Turkey:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_underground_city

Starting from the 7th to 8th centuries, up to 20 000 people lived there, generally Christians escaping wars and persecutions of one sort or the other. It was inhabited right up until 1923 when Turkey kicked them all out and they went to Greece.

Derinkuyu sounds like a great name for a Mars city, BTW.
No the Chinese dwellings are not all in cliffs or hillsides. Many are in flat land. They just dig a bid square open courtyard and then dig the dwellings laterally in the walls of the courtyard. Also, take another look at the numbers:
   1) The Chinese are still living there today.
   2) There are 40 MILLION Chinese living in these dwellings. That is more than the population of California.
Pffft they did that on Tatooine when I was 10, and it didn't take more than a retired couple and a whiny teenager.
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 7774
  • Likes Given: 7282
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #99 on: 12/05/2023 01:36 am »
Loess is ideal for tunneling and cavern excavation in general, and in the year 1556, a large percentage of the population of Shaanxi province in China lived in hand-excavated housing. Those folks built extensive and elaborate dwellings, not crude caves. It looks like an ideal place to use a boring machine: fairly soft uniform rock. One small problem: It's not really very strong and an earthquake can destroy the excavations. That was the year and place where the greatest loss of life due to earthquake occurred:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1556_Shaanxi_earthquake

Question 1: is this loess terrain on Mars in the right places?

Question 2: can modern techniques be used cost-effectively to line tunnels in loess to prevent collapse in earthquakes?
After further reading, I'm a bit embarassed. in 2006, 40 million Chinese were living in dwellings carved from loess. I suspect our Chinese colleagues here are quite familiar with this and may be amused that most Americans are unaware of loess dwellings.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaodong
Perhaps Chinese engineers would be more inclined to use boring techniques on Mars than American engineers.

Those are hillside dwellings. For the true subterranean city, you need to go to Turkey:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_underground_city

Starting from the 7th to 8th centuries, up to 20 000 people lived there, generally Christians escaping wars and persecutions of one sort or the other. It was inhabited right up until 1923 when Turkey kicked them all out and they went to Greece.

Derinkuyu sounds like a great name for a Mars city, BTW.
No the Chinese dwellings are not all in cliffs or hillsides. Many are in flat land. They just dig a bid square open courtyard and then dig the dwellings laterally in the walls of the courtyard. Also, take another look at the numbers:
   1) The Chinese are still living there today.
   2) There are 40 MILLION Chinese living in these dwellings. That is more than the population of California.
Pffft they did that on Tatooine when I was 10, and it didn't take more than a retired couple and a whiny teenager.

The Tatooine and Chinese reference made me think of getting Elon a Crate Krayt Dragon to drill the holes on Mars, now all we need is some Banthas.

Correction on the spelling of the Dragon.
« Last Edit: 12/05/2023 01:59 am by catdlr »
Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline Twark_Main

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3571
  • Technically we ALL live in space
  • Liked: 1856
  • Likes Given: 1178
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #100 on: 12/05/2023 01:54 am »
The Tatooine and Chinese reference made me think of getting Elon a Crate Dragon to drill the holes on Mars, now all we need is some Banthas.

For anyone who's lost:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Krayt_dragon
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 7774
  • Likes Given: 7282
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #101 on: 12/05/2023 02:02 am »
The Tatooine and Chinese reference made me think of getting Elon a Crate Dragon to drill the holes on Mars, now all we need is some Banthas.

For anyone who's lost:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Krayt_dragon

Thanks for pointing out the spelling. In that episode, there are two scenes where it appears. The first scene is more relevant to this thread as it involves tunneling through the town.

Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47311
  • UK
    • Plan 28
  • Liked: 80117
  • Likes Given: 36283
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #102 on: 12/05/2023 06:17 am »
https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1731900076392431762

Quote
Thanks for being a great partner - we are excited to open for service in Q1! 
More pics of TBM transport - safely squeezed 11 inches beneath the Monorail and then headed back to TBC to prep for the next Vegas Loop tunnel.

Offline D_Dom

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 655
  • Liked: 481
  • Likes Given: 152
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #103 on: 12/06/2023 05:58 pm »
 I see an article in my local newspaper today detailing construction of high speed rail connecting Southern California to Las Vegas. 218 miles, speeds nearly 200 mph, projecting 11 million passengers per year. Hoping to be finished in time for 2028 Olympics here in LA. Claiming all environmental review and permits are now in place after decades of work. Southern terminal in San Bernardino county, possibly near Ontario Airport(?). If I have a chance I will look for plans of Las Vegas terminal.
Space is not merely a matter of life or death, it is considerably more important than that!

Offline geoffc

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
  • New Joisey
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #104 on: 12/06/2023 06:25 pm »
You found Brightline West.  The first Brightline rail is in Florida, running north up the east side from Miami to the Palm Beach area, then turning west to Orlando, maybe to extend to Tampa.

Nice to see private companies trying to build rail!

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47311
  • UK
    • Plan 28
  • Liked: 80117
  • Likes Given: 36283
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #105 on: 12/06/2023 09:17 pm »
https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1732524445242417563

Quote
Time-lapse video of Prufrock-1 Retrieval @WestgateVegas

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #106 on: 12/06/2023 09:36 pm »
I see an article in my local newspaper today detailing construction of high speed rail connecting Southern California to Las Vegas. 218 miles, speeds nearly 200 mph, projecting 11 million passengers per year. Hoping to be finished in time for 2028 Olympics here in LA. Claiming all environmental review and permits are now in place after decades of work. Southern terminal in San Bernardino county, possibly near Ontario Airport(?). If I have a chance I will look for plans of Las Vegas terminal.

I don't know if they have progressed much lately, but even before the recent rise in interest rates, the hangup has been the financing.  There's some skepticism that it will actually be built.

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 7774
  • Likes Given: 7282
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #107 on: 12/06/2023 10:10 pm »
I see an article in my local newspaper today detailing construction of high speed rail connecting Southern California to Las Vegas. 218 miles, speeds nearly 200 mph, projecting 11 million passengers per year. Hoping to be finished in time for 2028 Olympics here in LA. Claiming all environmental review and permits are now in place after decades of work. Southern terminal in San Bernardino county, possibly near Ontario Airport(?). If I have a chance I will look for plans of Las Vegas terminal.

I don't know if they have progressed much lately, but even before the recent rise in interest rates, the hangup has been the financing.  There's some skepticism that it will actually be built.

and it's all above ground, with no tunneling anticipated, and runs along or in between the lanes of i-15.  Good luck to them, many companies have come and gone due to finances as mentioned above. 
« Last Edit: 12/06/2023 10:13 pm by catdlr »
Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline ctillier

  • Member
  • Posts: 42
  • Liked: 32
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #108 on: 12/07/2023 02:36 am »
the hangup has been the financing.  There's some skepticism that it will actually be built.

The $3B grant from the feds should kick things into high gear!

Offline southshore26

Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #109 on: 12/07/2023 10:06 am »
You found Brightline West.  The first Brightline rail is in Florida, running north up the east side from Miami to the Palm Beach area, then turning west to Orlando, maybe to extend to Tampa.

Nice to see private companies trying to build rail!

Congrats to them building it... it won't work long term in FL. The drive time is comparable from Miami to MCO and you have transportation when you get there... rail, not so much. Orlando is way to spread out... same with Tampa. No local infrastructure here to support it and honestly the money isn't there locally either.

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #110 on: 12/07/2023 07:07 pm »
Mick Akers from the Las Vegas Review-Journal is reporting that TBC bought 1.4 acres at 3682 S. Valley View Blvd. for $3.7 million.  It appears to have some relation to the Spring Mountain/Twain non-resort station (see map).

Interestingly, the real estate company selling the land to TBC is touting two adjacent developments that they have named the Spring Mountain Vegas Loop retail development and Valley View Vegas Loop retail development.  This appears to be the first marketing effort related to proximity to a Vegas Loop station.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/traffic/land-near-chinatown-planned-for-vegas-loop-station-2961080/
« Last Edit: 12/07/2023 07:08 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #111 on: 12/07/2023 07:26 pm »
I see an article in my local newspaper today detailing construction of high speed rail connecting Southern California to Las Vegas. 218 miles, speeds nearly 200 mph, projecting 11 million passengers per year. Hoping to be finished in time for 2028 Olympics here in LA. Claiming all environmental review and permits are now in place after decades of work. Southern terminal in San Bernardino county, possibly near Ontario Airport(?). If I have a chance I will look for plans of Las Vegas terminal.

I don't know if they have progressed much lately, but even before the recent rise in interest rates, the hangup has been the financing.  There's some skepticism that it will actually be built.

and it's all above ground, with no tunneling anticipated, and runs along or in between the lanes of i-15.  Good luck to them, many companies have come and gone due to finances as mentioned above.

For those keeping score, this is a $12 billion project for 265 miles of track and 4 stations, or roughly $45 million per mile.
« Last Edit: 12/07/2023 07:27 pm by RedLineTrain »

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 7774
  • Likes Given: 7282
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #112 on: 12/07/2023 07:57 pm »
I see an article in my local newspaper today detailing construction of high speed rail connecting Southern California to Las Vegas. 218 miles, speeds nearly 200 mph, projecting 11 million passengers per year. Hoping to be finished in time for 2028 Olympics here in LA. Claiming all environmental review and permits are now in place after decades of work. Southern terminal in San Bernardino county, possibly near Ontario Airport(?). If I have a chance I will look for plans of Las Vegas terminal.

I don't know if they have progressed much lately, but even before the recent rise in interest rates, the hangup has been the financing.  There's some skepticism that it will actually be built.

and it's all above ground, with no tunneling anticipated, and runs along or in between the lanes of i-15.  Good luck to them, many companies have come and gone due to finances as mentioned above.

For those keeping score, this is a $12 billion project for 265 miles of track and 4 stations, or roughly $45 million per mile.

Let's see here.  An investment of $12 billion was made, out of which $3 billion was granted, leaving $9 billion for investors. The issue with this investment is that the majority of passengers are dropped off at a train station located 80 miles short of the greater Los Angeles, South Bay, and Orange County areas, where desirable casino customers with discretionary income, can only travel to that station by car or light rail. A two-hour drive or rail ride (on a good day) is required to reach these areas, which can be a hard sell for passengers who are used to faster transit options such as flying out of three nearby airports. As a result, the only customers who may be interested are those who, demographically live closer to that station, would be hesitant to purchase rail tickets on this new train, and would rather continue driving to Las Vegas to spend what little disposable money they have there.

Let's not "de-rail" this thread any longer and get back to the thread's objective, tunneling aspects of his Boring Company concerning Mars.
« Last Edit: 12/07/2023 08:06 pm by catdlr »
Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Online edzieba

  • Virtual Realist
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5959
  • United Kingdom
  • Liked: 9104
  • Likes Given: 38
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #113 on: 12/08/2023 01:46 pm »
https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1732524445242417563

Quote
Time-lapse video of Prufrock-1 Retrieval @WestgateVegas
From the half-liner embedded in the big dirt pile behind the removed TBM head, it looks like Prufrock self-propelled out of the pit and up the prepared dirt mound for retrieval. If so, that means the minimal machinery behind it constitutes the remaining components of the TBM not contained within the head, which means Prufrock is a remarkably compact TBM without the usual 'tail' of support equipment.

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #114 on: 12/08/2023 02:42 pm »
Let's see here.  An investment of $12 billion was made, out of which $3 billion was granted, leaving $9 billion for investors.

Of the $9 billion for investors, $3+ billion will consist of bonds guaranteed by the government of California.

I doubt TBC would want to go down this path of government subsidies, spending, and control, with heavy involvement by the federal government.  A project takes decades using that approach.  They should probably much prefer the Vegas Loop model of financing, if it is available.  My understanding is that what might work in Nevada may not work in other jurisdictions.  It will be interesting to see how Austin works out.
« Last Edit: 12/08/2023 02:45 pm by RedLineTrain »

Online edzieba

  • Virtual Realist
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5959
  • United Kingdom
  • Liked: 9104
  • Likes Given: 38
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #115 on: 12/08/2023 05:01 pm »
Let's see here.  An investment of $12 billion was made, out of which $3 billion was granted, leaving $9 billion for investors.

Of the $9 billion for investors, $3+ billion will consist of bonds guaranteed by the government of California.

I doubt TBC would want to go down this path of government subsidies, spending, and control, with heavy involvement by the federal government.  A project takes decades using that approach.  They should probably much prefer the Vegas Loop model of financing, if it is available.  My understanding is that what might work in Nevada may not work in other jurisdictions.  It will be interesting to see how Austin works out.
Like with SpaceX (and TBC with the LVCC system), I have no doubt they will happily accept government funds if available.

What they won't do is architect the project such that institutional funds and commercial raises must all come together before any work starts to occur - where wrangling the commercial funds to meet the promised government funds, and getting everyone to shake hands on what their requirements to invest are, is what tends to drag the process on. What has occurred at SpaceX in the past is either bidding for a contract at a fully-burdened price (as with Dragon 2, where SpaceX has eaten the eaten the cost underestimate for the first flights then re-bid at a higher price), or bidding at a price they are willing to accept that only covers part of the work and dealing with further funding sources on their own timetable and their own terms (e.g. HLS) whilst moving forwards with the project regardless.

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 610
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #116 on: 12/09/2023 10:43 pm »
AFAIK There is no rule that says TBC has to use TBM’s to dig tunnels.

WRT  Mars, I know that the roadheader is a much more versatile option for excavating habitable space.  I’ve just always envisaged using a TBM as it gives a good circular cross section which I see as being the best for fitting airlocks.  Then again, I suppose that modern roadheaders are just as good these days.  🤔

Offline DistantTemple

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1989
  • England
  • Liked: 1692
  • Likes Given: 2802
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #117 on: 12/10/2023 03:04 pm »
IMO the TBM is one machine that builds a completed tunnel - well at least the lined, and structurally sound tube!
I assume currently several operators ride n it and control it, and others make sure the flows of tunnel segments and spoil properly support its operation.

At first I thought that that makes it more ready for robotic operation and teleoperated management.

However a road header in the right sort of stable rock, is only one item to control at a time. And so very much easier. If the rock is completely self supporting, then the only logistics is removing the spoil! which is a loader and a truck. All three can operate in separate time slots (for simplicity at first). And a dome (or other shapes) can be made instead of a tunnel... so it is massively less complicated than a TBM, much more flexible and of course cheaper lighter, and easier to land on the surface!
TBM's suddenly seem to me to be way in the future on Mars, and completely unsuited for early operations.
We can always grow new new dendrites. Reach out and make connections and your world will burst with new insights. Then repose in consciousness.

Offline Ludus

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1743
  • Liked: 1255
  • Likes Given: 1012
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #118 on: 12/10/2023 03:44 pm »
IMO the TBM is one machine that builds a completed tunnel - well at least the lined, and structurally sound tube!
I assume currently several operators ride n it and control it, and others make sure the flows of tunnel segments and spoil properly support its operation.

At first I thought that that makes it more ready for robotic operation and teleoperated management.

However a road header in the right sort of stable rock, is only one item to control at a time. And so very much easier. If the rock is completely self supporting, then the only logistics is removing the spoil! which is a loader and a truck. All three can operate in separate time slots (for simplicity at first). And a dome (or other shapes) can be made instead of a tunnel... so it is massively less complicated than a TBM, much more flexible and of course cheaper lighter, and easier to land on the surface!
TBM's suddenly seem to me to be way in the future on Mars, and completely unsuited for early operations.

As you observe, the Loop tunnel TBM system requires an elaborate supporting infrastructure. That it might be used in the early history of a Mars settlement seems more a polite fiction that lets this thread continue to be vaguely Space related.

Online DanClemmensen

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5289
  • Earth (currently)
  • Liked: 4138
  • Likes Given: 1663
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #119 on: 12/10/2023 03:51 pm »
IMO the TBM is one machine that builds a completed tunnel - well at least the lined, and structurally sound tube!
I assume currently several operators ride n it and control it, and others make sure the flows of tunnel segments and spoil properly support its operation.

At first I thought that that makes it more ready for robotic operation and teleoperated management.

However a road header in the right sort of stable rock, is only one item to control at a time. And so very much easier. If the rock is completely self supporting, then the only logistics is removing the spoil! which is a loader and a truck. All three can operate in separate time slots (for simplicity at first). And a dome (or other shapes) can be made instead of a tunnel... so it is massively less complicated than a TBM, much more flexible and of course cheaper lighter, and easier to land on the surface!
TBM's suddenly seem to me to be way in the future on Mars, and completely unsuited for early operations.

As you observe, the Loop tunnel TBM system requires an elaborate supporting infrastructure. That it might be used in the early history of a Mars settlement seems more a polite fiction that lets this thread continue to be vaguely Space related.
Use TBM to dig the streets, prpbably in a very large cloverleaf pattern so the machine can keep running forward, The center will be a square grid as the machine offsets by one city block for each pass. Use road header to dig the dwellings, etc. in the sides of the street tunnels.

Offline KSHavre

  • KSHavre
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 127
  • Portland, OR
  • Liked: 92
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #120 on: 12/10/2023 06:43 pm »
IMO the TBM is one machine that builds a completed tunnel - well at least the lined, and structurally sound tube!
I assume currently several operators ride in it and control it, and others make sure the flows of tunnel segments and spoil properly support its operation.

At first I thought that that makes it more ready for robotic operation and teleoperated management.

However a road header in the right sort of stable rock, is only one item to control at a time. And so very much easier. If the rock is completely self supporting, then the only logistics is removing the spoil! which is a loader and a truck. All three can operate in separate time slots (for simplicity at first). And a dome (or other shapes) can be made instead of a tunnel... so it is massively less complicated than a TBM, much more flexible and of course cheaper lighter, and easier to land on the surface!
TBM's suddenly seem to me to be way in the future on Mars, and completely unsuited for early operations.

Why would building a city on Mars be different than on Earth? I have been watching massive urban expansions in my area, and Dan is on the right track.

1. They all start with levelling the grade; on Mars, just make sure you are at the same depth, or a spiral for multi-story (buildings and neighborhoods).

2. Then the utilities go into trenches; on Mars a center tunnel, road tunnels later on either side or top and bottom.

Quote from: DanClemmensen on Today at 03:51 pm:
Quote
Use TBM to dig the streets, pr{o}bably in a very large cloverleaf pattern so the machine can keep running forward, The center will be a square grid as the machine offsets by one city block for each pass.

3. The center grid is where you assemble the Road Header and/or anything too big to fit in the tunnels.

4. Dig out the barracks at the center for construction workers, that become the central business districts.

4. In the mean time, start building the roads; on Mars digging 2 tunnels on either side of the Utilities.

Quote
Use road header to dig the dwellings, etc. in the sides of the street tunnels.

All the rubble from the digging goes out to the above surface construction needed early on for thermo/radiation shielding.

I was tempted to keep going, but that would make this a side track from the other threads that cover "Building things on Mars"; back to the topic:

TBM first, yep.


Offline FutureSpaceTourist

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47311
  • UK
    • Plan 28
  • Liked: 80117
  • Likes Given: 36283
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #121 on: 12/11/2023 08:29 am »
« Last Edit: 12/11/2023 08:30 am by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline wes_wilson

  • Armchair Rocketeer
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
  • Florida
    • Foundations IT, Inc.
  • Liked: 542
  • Likes Given: 375
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #122 on: 12/12/2023 12:03 am »
https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1734143066062328172

Quote
Two TBMs passing in the night

Something about that picture reminds me of Dune.  They should give these things Dune inspired names.

@SpaceX "When can I buy my ticket to Mars?"

Online Zed_Noir

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5400
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1778
  • Likes Given: 1282
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #123 on: 12/12/2023 02:16 am »
https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1734143066062328172

Quote
Two TBMs passing in the night

Something about that picture reminds me of Dune.  They should give these things Dune inspired names.

Actually that image reminds me more of the machines from Gerry Anderson's Thunderbird TV series from the 60s.

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 610
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #124 on: 12/12/2023 05:56 am »
https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1734143066062328172

Quote
Two TBMs passing in the night

Something about that picture reminds me of Dune.  They should give these things Dune inspired names.

Actually that image reminds me more of the machines from Gerry Anderson's Thunderbird TV series from the 60s.

“The Mole”, carried and deployed by Thunderbird 2, had a strange sort of corkscrew/auger nose that drilled into the earth but it also had what looked like rubber caterpillar treads on its sides that provided, I assume, the forward motion to the machine.  If I remember correctly that is.

I wonder if something like those treads would work in solid, stable rock that did not require lining segments instead of the current system of rams pushing on those segments to move the machine forward.

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 610
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #125 on: 12/12/2023 05:58 am »
https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1734143066062328172

Quote
Two TBMs passing in the night

Something about that picture reminds me of Dune.  They should give these things Dune inspired names.
”Shai Halud” & “Shaitan”.

Online Asteroza

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2789
  • Liked: 1051
  • Likes Given: 32

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 7774
  • Likes Given: 7282
Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline geoffc

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
  • New Joisey
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #128 on: 12/19/2023 09:06 pm »
Quote
My choice is "Dig-Dug"  ( I'm showing my age)
https://www.retrogames.cz/play_012-NES.php?language=EN

I chose Miner-2049er.
https://www.retrogames.cz/play_525-DOS.php

But if sticking with Dune name, Kvitzas Haderech is ripped out of Hebrew by Herbert and means "Shortening of the Way".  Shortcut even...

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14098
  • N. California
  • Liked: 13961
  • Likes Given: 1389
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #129 on: 12/19/2023 09:11 pm »
Quote
My choice is "Dig-Dug"  ( I'm showing my age)
https://www.retrogames.cz/play_012-NES.php?language=EN

I chose Miner-2049er.
https://www.retrogames.cz/play_525-DOS.php

But if sticking with Dune name, Kvitzas Haderech is ripped out of Hebrew by Herbert and means "Shortening of the Way".  Shortcut even...

"Quantum Leap" maybe for the translation?

"Borer Haderech" for a pun on pun.
« Last Edit: 12/19/2023 09:12 pm by meekGee »
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline Bob Shaw

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1418
  • Liked: 725
  • Likes Given: 671
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #130 on: 12/19/2023 09:25 pm »
This discussion has become genuinely boring. Well done!

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 7774
  • Likes Given: 7282
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #131 on: 12/19/2023 09:39 pm »
This discussion has become genuinely boring. Well done!


With little news to go on, we apparently dug ourselves into a hole.   ;D
« Last Edit: 12/19/2023 10:39 pm by catdlr »
Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline Bob Shaw

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1418
  • Liked: 725
  • Likes Given: 671
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #132 on: 12/19/2023 09:49 pm »
I wasn't being critical! Bring it on!  ;D

Offline CMac

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 174
  • Ireland
  • Liked: 98
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #133 on: 12/20/2023 07:13 am »
It's all tunnel vision

Offline KSHavre

  • KSHavre
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 127
  • Portland, OR
  • Liked: 92
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #134 on: 12/20/2023 11:15 pm »
It's all tunnel vision
As long as there is a light...

Offline Ken the Bin

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2639
  • US Pacific Time Zone
    • @kenthebin@spacey.space
  • Liked: 4879
  • Likes Given: 5232
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #135 on: 12/20/2023 11:55 pm »
It's all tunnel vision
As long as there is a light...

Yeah, the oncoming train ...

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 7774
  • Likes Given: 7282
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #136 on: 12/30/2023 02:01 pm »
For all your tunnel fans, a highlight of major tunnel projects around the world

Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #137 on: 12/31/2023 07:11 pm »
Cybertruck in Vegas Loop.  They are probably doing this for CES.

https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1740941792957317312

Offline scr00chy

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1183
  • Czechia
    • ElonX.net
  • Liked: 1681
  • Likes Given: 1559

Offline zubenelgenubi

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11002
  • Arc to Arcturus, then Spike to Spica
  • Sometimes it feels like Trantor in the time of Hari Seldon
  • Liked: 7291
  • Likes Given: 70076
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #139 on: 01/05/2024 07:06 pm »
Moderator:
Interesting, but off-topic, discussion split/merged to the party thread. 🥳
Launch, Land, and Relaunch Party Thread

Edited
« Last Edit: 01/05/2024 08:51 pm by zubenelgenubi »
Support your local planetarium! (COVID-panic and forward: Now more than ever.) My current avatar is saying "i wants to go uppies!" Yes, there are God-given rights. Do you wish to gainsay the Declaration of Independence?

Offline zubenelgenubi

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11002
  • Arc to Arcturus, then Spike to Spica
  • Sometimes it feels like Trantor in the time of Hari Seldon
  • Liked: 7291
  • Likes Given: 70076
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #140 on: 01/05/2024 07:13 pm »
“The Mole”, carried and deployed by Thunderbird 2, had a strange sort of corkscrew/auger nose that drilled into the earth but it also had what looked like rubber caterpillar treads on its sides that provided, I assume, the forward motion to the machine.  If I remember correctly that is.

Go Team Venture! 👏





[Clips not for the little kiddies, even though it's a cartoon.]
« Last Edit: 01/05/2024 07:33 pm by zubenelgenubi »
Support your local planetarium! (COVID-panic and forward: Now more than ever.) My current avatar is saying "i wants to go uppies!" Yes, there are God-given rights. Do you wish to gainsay the Declaration of Independence?

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 7774
  • Likes Given: 7282
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #141 on: 01/05/2024 07:35 pm »
Moderator:
Interesting, but off-topic, discussion split/merged to the party thread. 🥳

How boring.   ;D
« Last Edit: 01/05/2024 07:35 pm by catdlr »
Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 610
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #142 on: 01/05/2024 08:31 pm »
Moderator:
Interesting, but off-topic, discussion split/merged to the party thread. 🥳

What party thread ??

Offline zubenelgenubi

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11002
  • Arc to Arcturus, then Spike to Spica
  • Sometimes it feels like Trantor in the time of Hari Seldon
  • Liked: 7291
  • Likes Given: 70076
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #143 on: 01/05/2024 08:52 pm »
Moderator:
Interesting, but off-topic, discussion split/merged to the party thread. 🥳

What party thread ??

Launch, Land, and Relaunch Party Thread
I edited my original post.
« Last Edit: 01/05/2024 08:52 pm by zubenelgenubi »
Support your local planetarium! (COVID-panic and forward: Now more than ever.) My current avatar is saying "i wants to go uppies!" Yes, there are God-given rights. Do you wish to gainsay the Declaration of Independence?

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 7774
  • Likes Given: 7282
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #144 on: 01/05/2024 09:06 pm »
Moderator:
Interesting, but off-topic, discussion split/merged to the party thread. 🥳

What party thread ??

Launch, Land, and Relaunch Party Thread
I edited my original post.

Oh, I'm sorry you meant that Boring party thread.   ;)   ;D

Yeah, why not? I hope I didn't dig my self into to hole.
« Last Edit: 01/05/2024 09:07 pm by catdlr »
Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Online r1279

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 288
  • Liked: 327
  • Likes Given: 928
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #145 on: 01/08/2024 07:45 pm »
Grout plant setup progress, conveyor cassette sections

https://twitter.com/JoeTegtmeyer/status/1744415828873740365
« Last Edit: 01/08/2024 07:48 pm by r1279 »

Offline Ken the Bin

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2639
  • US Pacific Time Zone
    • @kenthebin@spacey.space
  • Liked: 4879
  • Likes Given: 5232
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #146 on: 01/10/2024 02:02 am »
Las Vegas Review-Journal article: Tesla Cybertruck to be added to Boring Company’s Vegas Loop

Copyrighted material fair use:
Quote from: Las Vegas Review-Journal
Tesla Cybertrucks will soon be moving passengers through The Boring Company’s Vegas Loop tunnel system.

Boring Co. posted pictures of a Cybertruck in the Las Vegas Convention Center Loop to its X account in late December with no context, leaving many to wonder if it would be incorporated to the system. Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority President and CEO Steve Hill confirmed Tuesday that conventiongoers will soon be able to hail a ride in a Cybertruck.

Online r1279

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 288
  • Liked: 327
  • Likes Given: 928
« Last Edit: 01/10/2024 05:48 pm by r1279 »

Offline Ken the Bin

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2639
  • US Pacific Time Zone
    • @kenthebin@spacey.space
  • Liked: 4879
  • Likes Given: 5232
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #148 on: 01/12/2024 02:37 am »
Las Vegas Review-Journal article: Boring Company buys Vegas Loop land near UNLV

Copyrighted material fair use:
Quote from: Las Vegas Review-Journal
Elon Musk’s Boring Company has purchased another plot as expansion of the Vegas Loop people mover system is on the horizon.

Object Dash, an affiliate company of Boring Co., bought a 1.8-acre parcel located on Paradise Road across University Center Drive from the Thomas & Mack Center for $7.2 million, according to Clark County records.

Online r1279

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 288
  • Liked: 327
  • Likes Given: 928
« Last Edit: 01/12/2024 09:11 pm by r1279 »

Offline CuddlyRocket

Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #150 on: 01/13/2024 04:52 am »
GigaTexas Under Highway Tunnel: This kind of work might be a nice little earner for TBC. There must be lots of people/places who would find a short underpass useful for some reason or other. Of course the usefulness has to be compared to the cost, but if TBC can construct these things cheaper than current practice, some projects currently considered financially unviable might become so.

Offline OTV Booster

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5059
  • Terra is my nation; currently Kansas
  • Liked: 3514
  • Likes Given: 5932
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #151 on: 01/14/2024 01:36 am »
GigaTexas Under Highway Tunnel: This kind of work might be a nice little earner for TBC. There must be lots of people/places who would find a short underpass useful for some reason or other. Of course the usefulness has to be compared to the cost, but if TBC can construct these things cheaper than current practice, some projects currently considered financially unviable might become so.
Especially if they can do it without disrupting traffic.
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline Ken the Bin

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2639
  • US Pacific Time Zone
    • @kenthebin@spacey.space
  • Liked: 4879
  • Likes Given: 5232
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #152 on: 01/15/2024 01:35 pm »
The Las Vegas Review-Journal's weekly Road Warrior column that came out today:
Boring Co.’s Vegas Loop connections to UNLV, F1 building on the horizon

(Copyrighted material fair use)
Quote from: Las Vegas Review-Journal
The Boring Company’s Vegas Loop is expected to soon expand to near UNLV and surrounding areas, including Formula One’s Grand Prix Plaza.

Dubbed the University Center Loop, plans call for a dual tunnel system between the Las Vegas Convention Center and land located near UNLV sandwiched between University Center Drive and Paradise Road. Boring Co. spent $7.1 million this month to purchase the land, which sits directly across University Center Drive from the Thomas & Mack Center.

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #153 on: 01/15/2024 02:37 pm »
The Las Vegas Review-Journal's weekly Road Warrior column that came out today:
Boring Co.’s Vegas Loop connections to UNLV, F1 building on the horizon

(Copyrighted material fair use)
Quote from: Las Vegas Review-Journal
The Boring Company’s Vegas Loop is expected to soon expand to near UNLV and surrounding areas, including Formula One’s Grand Prix Plaza.

Dubbed the University Center Loop, plans call for a dual tunnel system between the Las Vegas Convention Center and land located near UNLV sandwiched between University Center Drive and Paradise Road. Boring Co. spent $7.1 million this month to purchase the land, which sits directly across University Center Drive from the Thomas & Mack Center.

Lots of good stuff in that article.  Steve Hill is ever the friend of TBC in the PR department.

Attached is an outline of the property, which they bought from Budget Rent a Car.  Last year, they entered into a negotiation with the University for a plot of land near there.  They must have decided that the Budget Rent a Car parcel was more suitable.

Looks like it is roughly a 4 mile loop, depending on the specifics.  It will bring the parking at the Thomas and Mack Center into use for the convention center, which is one of the main goals of Steve Hill.  He's all about the parking.  And the University will love it because of the incremental revenue.
« Last Edit: 01/15/2024 02:46 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline Ludus

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1743
  • Liked: 1255
  • Likes Given: 1012
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #154 on: 01/16/2024 12:35 pm »
I suppose the argument could be made Boring Company tunnels with Tesla robotaxi's are the mundane singularity version of utopian pod PRT systems. Does it reach the "good enough" line, particularly in light of retrofit costs onto existing infrastructure?

Plus, if FSD gets to a usable stage, why the focus on classical cars as FSD robotaxis? If it fits and has FSD, why not other vehicle patterns? We've seen plenty of renders for bus-like systems and car loading skates, but why not so much of the reverse, like those hypercompact two seater EV's various companies have played around with (such as the Toyota i-Road and the GM PUMA).

I think Tesla cars are used in current prototype versions of Loop just because they are available and easy. Similar to drivers. Better to get something working than wait endlessly for more advanced versions. The only reason not to include hyper compacts is if they can’t perform up to the systems standards which are likely 100 mph + on some segments. The long promised small bus, people pod would make a lot of sense, so would delivery and emergency vehicles.

One potential direction I think is missing is considering the system as a 3D circulatory network which would mean not just below ground Loop tunnels + surface roads for AVs but also letting them go up into buildings above ground. Thyssen- Krupp has a horizontal+vertical elevator system that’s pretty expensive. It’s all bespoke. Loop could do the same thing cheaper by just creating standards for architecture. There needs to a lift for Loop vehicles that allows multiple vehicles in the same shaft but for horizontal they’d just roll along under network control on Loop paths inside buildings. It would be useful if vehicles could rotate wheels and shift sideways to get out of the way in a path. That would also be useful on city streets. The lift is of course also needed for the original vision of Loop where vehicles can drop down from city streets from a space no larger than a parking spot.

Offline DistantTemple

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1989
  • England
  • Liked: 1692
  • Likes Given: 2802
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #155 on: 01/16/2024 01:08 pm »
I suppose the argument could be made Boring Company tunnels with Tesla robotaxi's are the mundane singularity version of utopian pod PRT systems. Does it reach the "good enough" line, particularly in light of retrofit costs onto existing infrastructure?

Plus, if FSD gets to a usable stage, why the focus on classical cars as FSD robotaxis? If it fits and has FSD, why not other vehicle patterns? We've seen plenty of renders for bus-like systems and car loading skates, but why not so much of the reverse, like those hypercompact two seater EV's various companies have played around with (such as the Toyota i-Road and the GM PUMA).

I think Tesla cars are used in current prototype versions of Loop just because they are available and easy. Similar to drivers. Better to get something working than wait endlessly for more advanced versions. The only reason not to include hyper compacts is if they can’t perform up to the systems standards which are likely 100 mph + on some segments. The long promised small bus, people pod would make a lot of sense, so would delivery and emergency vehicles.

One potential direction I think is missing is considering the system as a 3D circulatory network which would mean not just below ground Loop tunnels + surface roads for AVs but also letting them go up into buildings above ground. Thyssen- Krupp has a horizontal+vertical elevator system that’s pretty expensive. It’s all bespoke. Loop could do the same thing cheaper by just creating standards for architecture. There needs to a lift for Loop vehicles that allows multiple vehicles in the same shaft but for horizontal they’d just roll along under network control on Loop paths inside buildings. It would be useful if vehicles could rotate wheels and shift sideways to get out of the way in a path. That would also be useful on city streets. The lift is of course also needed for the original vision of Loop where vehicles can drop down from city streets from a space no larger than a parking spot.
The BC is still in early gestation.... At last we have seen a photo with two tunneling machines together - one appearing brand new (although that may just be the cutter head).
I agree Ludus. In a few years they will have several TBMS... or even many!!!! and the network will be growing fast. If loop vehicles are to be mass produced, that means 10's of 1000's. Its too early for that. And the roll out of the first will be after driverless operation (at least in tunnels) is standard as deleting a full driver position will free up the design.
Sideways - maybe (IMO likely), a separate 4 small wheels that deploy for the purpose, as its such a different specialized function from high speed forward  (including potholed roads).
« Last Edit: 01/16/2024 01:09 pm by DistantTemple »
We can always grow new new dendrites. Reach out and make connections and your world will burst with new insights. Then repose in consciousness.

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
  • Liked: 2368
  • Likes Given: 10125
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #156 on: 01/17/2024 10:56 pm »
Related to the University Center Loop, TBC has already started work (or at least the placement of equipment) on the Virgin Hotel station.

Quote
Work has started on the Vegas Loop station at Virgin. (h/t @JamesInLasVegas)

https://twitter.com/VitalVegas/status/1747721011116773669

Online r1279

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 288
  • Liked: 327
  • Likes Given: 928

Offline donaldp

  • Member
  • Posts: 42
  • Liked: 40
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #158 on: 01/22/2024 04:28 pm »
Off topic but the Boring Company seem to have some competition and an even more innovative approach to boring tunnels.

https://www.hypertunnel.co.uk/



Looks like it could be fully automated so might be ideal for Mars at some time in the future?

Offline philw1776

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
  • Seacoast NH
  • Liked: 1842
  • Likes Given: 977
Re: Elon The Boring Company - Tunnel 2
« Reply #159 on: 01/22/2024 04:46 pm »
Off topic but the Boring Company seem to have some competition and an even more innovative approach to boring tunnels.

https://www.hypertunnel.co.uk/



Looks like it could be fully automated so might be ideal for Mars at some time in the future?

Interesting but unimpressed. Their contract (not yet built) is a 20 METER long pedestrian underpass.
Admittedly, ya gotta start somewhere.
FULL SEND!!!!

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0